Fitting In: Is the Corporate Mask Exhausting You?

Fitting in at work isn’t just about wearing the right shirt or laughing at the boss’s jokes—it’s about survival. Or at least, that’s how it feels. This week on A Job Done Well, James and Jimmy are joined by Gestalt psychotherapist Dawn Wray to dissect the dark art of "fitting in" and why it’s more psychologically taxing than a Monday morning spreadsheet. It’s not about your social skills. It’s about the ancient, visceral patterns of belonging—or not—that shape how you show up at work, how you hide, and how you might just lose yourself in the process.

Dawn pulls no punches: fitting in isn’t just uncomfortable, it’s exhausting. It’s the constant, unconscious negotiation between who you are and who you think you need to be to avoid rejection. It’s the shirt you tuck in, the opinions you swallow, and the banter you force yourself to laugh at—all while your brain screams, "This isn’t me." And when the gap between your authentic self and your "work self" yawns too wide? Welcome to burnout, anxiety, and the slow erosion of confidence.

But here’s the kicker: not fitting in isn’t always a bad thing. Sometimes, it’s growth. Sometimes, it’s the friction that forces change. The trick? Knowing the difference between the discomfort of stretching and the soul-crushing drain of pretending. Dawn’s advice? Slow down. Pay attention. Notice when you’re holding your breath in meetings or rehearsing your personality before walking into the boardroom. And ask yourself: Are you adapting, or are you disappearing?

James and Jimmy riff on the absurdity of corporate "professionalism" (read: conformity), the myth of the "perfect fit," and why the most dangerous employees might just be the ones who never complain. Because if everyone’s nodding along, someone’s lying—and it might be you.

Five Key Points:

• Fitting in isn’t about skills—it’s about survival. Your brain treats workplace rejection like a threat to your safety, thanks to patterns wired in since childhood.
• The cost of conformity: Swallowing your opinions or faking enthusiasm doesn’t just feel bad—it drains energy, fuels anxiety, and can tank your performance.
• Not all discomfort is equal. Growth feels energising; self-betrayal feels like dread. Learn to tell the difference.
• The "professionalism" con. What’s often sold as "professional" is just socially sanctioned masking—tuck in your shirt, shut up, and smile.
• The ultimate question: Are you adapting to thrive, or editing yourself to survive? And if it’s the latter, how long can you keep it up?

Transcript

Fitting in
Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
[00:00:15] James: Good morning, what we're talking about.
 I've quite often felt uncomfortable I'm not sure about the performing well bit, but
 What you mean
we've got an expert? 'cause we dunno what we're talking about.
 Just.
[00:01:10] Dawn: Yeah.
Hello.
 
[00:01:24] Dawn: Yeah. So I'm Dawn. I'm a Gestalt psychotherapist, which is important and will be important to this topic. So that, and I used to work with James and Jimmy. And then I have since retrained as a Gestalt psychotherapist supervisor and teacher. That's what I do. I practice psychotherapy.
[00:01:43] James: Good to have you back.
[00:02:05] Dawn: . Mm-hmm. So f fitting in is really hard and it's hard for reasons that people might not necessarily first think. It's not like a social skills, do I fit, don't I fit? What do I do, what don't I do? Fitting in speaks to and activate really old patterns for us. So where we fit in the world starts and our sense of even our like very sense of safety in the world goes back to how we've felt like we fitted in, in our family groups, in our upbringing, in our, like, it triggers like something quite visceral in, in whether we fit in or not where I learned to belong, I know you've covered belonging before, but how I've learned to belong and therefore whether I feel like I fit in here or not, or whether my face fits here or not, actually triggers really deep senses of patterns of behavior or patterns of how I have been in the world in the past.
So things like, like things you might see, for example, and we'll come onto this I guess in the future, is like, like I would call it confluence, but how we might try to be like other people in order to fit in how we might look like other people talk, like other people behave like other people like that can be aware that people will try to fit in.
Because actually if I don't agree with you, if I don't look like you, then. I might be rejected or excluded and that, that goes right to our core. 
[00:03:43] James: interesting John, 'cause it can be that easy, can't it? It can be just as,
[00:03:46] Dawn: yeah.
[00:03:47] James: you wearing the same clothes?
[00:03:48] Dawn: Yeah. Literally not easy.
[00:03:50] James: it. 
[00:03:50] Dawn: Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Exactly that because fitting in is part of our identity, and work is a huge part of our identity. So you're talking about how I meet the world and who I think I am as a person and how I see myself as a person. You're at that boundary when you're talking about fitting in at work. And work is a massive part of who I am and how I identify who I am.
 Yeah. And I think we'll do, in order to fit in, like I've mentioned one of them, like being like the people around you, you might choose to . Just be really agreeable and agree with everything that's going on and swallow down the, this is the way things are around here, even though it's not really what I think and feel in here because that helps me fit in.
If I agree with you, Jimmy, I fit in like we belong with, I fit with you if I agree with you and that avoidance of conflict. 
[00:05:20] James: therefore don't we do it because it's just a safer
[00:05:23] Dawn: yeah.
Or we might choose to not say, and actually I might wanna tell you that I don't agree or that was a harmful thing to say. . I won't say that to you.
'cause if I say that to you, I risk not fitting in. So I'll keep it to myself. And that has an effect on how I feel in the workplace. 'cause I'm keeping everything in.
[00:05:42] James: And we talk a lot. It's interesting your point about not tucking your shirt in. Well, A, you wear a scruffy bugger, but. I think the key point is people thought you weren't professional 'cause you weren't taking your shirt in. So we have this concept of professionalism, but professionalism really, it depends on where you happen to be.
It's just socially sanctioned masking, isn't it? It's not, yeah. It's not anything professional. It's just about being the same as the other
[00:06:06] Dawn: Yeah. 
[00:06:11] James: Oh, absolutely. 
Sorry. Before we go there, can I ask another question before we get into how you do it? Does it, so is it really a problem?
[00:07:07] Dawn: It becomes a problem when you are being asked to override yourself.
And knowing that I'm doing that even can be a problem, but overriding yourself or losing yourself at the expense of fitting into that organization can have massive psychological, even physiological impacts.
And it's whether you're doing those things in through choice, like Jimmy might have chosen to tuck his shirt in because he wants to fit in and he is, he's the big boss and he's fine to do that. But when that is a constant stream of. Compromising myself in order to be in this workplace that can cause all kinds of problems.
[00:07:45] James: Yeah, Yeah, it's just one thing. Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:07:54] Dawn: Yes.
[00:08:17] James: Um, yeah, no, I'm gonna sound very up myself here, but not hell. Maybe I am right,
but yeah, up myself. Um. So I've always worked in development roles.
Yeah.
So it's always been about doing things differently. So to a certain extent, that was part of my persona. So it was at work, I am not going to fit in 'cause I am here to do things differently and that is what you are paying me for. Right? That sounds a bit strange, but that would mean that, for example, I would wear jeans with a pet, with shirt and tie. You can argue the toss about my style choices, but it was a very deliberate choice on my part to say, no, I'm not like you guys, but maybe actually, maybe I did that because that's what was expected of me. So I think you're right, one, yeah, you do these things and I did deliberately set myself apart, but I might have done it because I thought I should because that
[00:09:09] Dawn: Yeah,
[00:09:10] James: of
[00:09:10] Dawn: it is the disconnect between how, I hate this word, authentic, but congruent is maybe a better word. How congruently me can I be and what do I need to compromise of that in order to fit in? And when the gap between those two things is too big or they rub against each other in two. Difficult aware.
That's when you lose yourself and run the risk of, all kinds of problems depending on what's going on. It's a very fine line. Yeah. 'cause the question is are you adapting. Or are you actually editing yourself?
yeah,
[00:09:43] James: I think those are
[00:09:44] Dawn: and they're they're the same thing and I'd like. There's a kind of how you would know whether you're doing that we can get to, in a bit, but to your point around you were being paid to be different. That sounds to me like it's authentic enough, like that is enough of you and you being you.
There was enough of that for you to feel like you could make compromises elsewhere. I imagine in order that you just fit in
.
[00:10:12] Dawn: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:20] James: I haven't got enough.
 
[00:10:28] Dawn: My personal perspective, and probably the reason why I now do this and I don't work in a corporate, is that I felt like there was never room for discussion. Often I felt like there had to be a right and a wrong and a this or a that. And actually sometimes the answers that you need to find are the ones where there's a discursive approach and you can be in the gray a little bit.
And actually I felt like I compromised myself and had to be seen to be, well yes, this is the answer and that's what we're doing. And it and the black and whiteness, I think I. I was probably confluent in looking like I was very forthright and opinionated and actually my in inside I wanted to be, well, hang on a minute.
Let's just open this up a bit. What actually, like what is the solution to this? There's not a silver bullet and I think I, I tried to fit in by seeming that way. 
[00:12:36] James: Well,
no, sorry. Let me go in there though, because I think that's quite interesting. it is not about the threat of violence though, is it? And what I'm trying to say is it's a very multifaceted thing, whether you fit in or not, because another story you've told is about working in a bookkeepers where you face an armed robber.
Sorry Makers, I dunno, but whatever. But the point was far more dangerous, a bloke facing you down with a gun than
being beaten up by a couple of posters. But I presume you fitted in or felt you fitted in much better at the. Book makers than the post
office. So it's, what I'm trying to say is that there's a whole plethora of things and it's a sort of, it's not one single thing. There's a whole host of things.
[00:13:35] Dawn: Come in there Because where this process is exhausting of fitting in sometimes. Is what you are talking about. I'm gonna use a bit of therapeutic language, but I hope that's okay. So what you're talking about in fitting in is the contact boundary between me and other. So me and the workplace, me and that team, me and those po and we're always all the time, even now we're managing ourselves at that contact boundary.
How much of myself can I show at that contact boundary? How safe do I feel at this contact? Like, it's a not conscious thing, but we're doing it all of the time. And what you are talking about in the posty situation is you were adjusting. 'cause I don't like this, I don't like the banter.
I don't like the. Violence like, and you are constantly having to adjust yourself to meet what is at that contact boundary that you don't like. And that process of, I'm not going there, I'm gonna keep that's an exhausting process. So when we're talking about fitting in and actually do I do, I go beyond myself?
'cause you could have given in to the banter and fitting in and people do like they.
And you were, you didn't, but actually when we override ourselves, it to override yourself in that situation would've been to join in the banter for the sake of fitting in. And it's that con, that continual adjustment of the contact boundary and the choices that you're making that, that you're talking about.
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[00:15:37] Dawn: I would imagine, and I know from my own experience, not working with you guys, but there would be depression, anxiety mental health issues, it could be burnout, all these phrases that people use all the time. These are all symptoms of this constant adjusting.
[00:16:05] James: Well, And
it plays on your mind as well though, doesn't it? 'cause you end up in a
position where you start to think you are worthless 'cause you don't fit you start to see yourself as basically
unhirable. So you can be a real confidence knock.
[00:16:18] Dawn: Yeah. , 
[00:16:33] James: Beautiful. 
[00:16:37] Dawn: Yeah.
 
[00:16:55] Dawn: From my perspective, I think they're both, they both feel really uncomfortable for start. They are two sides of the same coin. They will both feel really uncomfortable. For me, it's the quality of the discomfort. So if I feel like, oh, I'm not quite fitting in, but I'm enlivened and I feel excited and I'm aware that like I do that and I'm actually, I'm okay and I'm going back for more and that's probably that I'm growing.
But if I leave that day at work or that month at work and I'm drained and I'm grumpy and I feel completely exhausted and like I'm dreading tomorrow's meeting, like the quality of that discomfort is very different. And quality is in like how you'd feel a fabric. I don't mean good or bad. I mean the texture of that.
I think you should pay more attention to how we feel uncomfortable.
[00:17:51] James: , I've got an example of that. , So I, when I first started work I was in my early twenties, you'd have to ring people up, right? . I used to sit there I used to practice what I was gonna say before I picked up the phone. 'cause I was, scared.
I was worried about what people would think. But that was just, it was just a big jump from where I've been before and it was different and it was unusual. And to be honest with you, I think that was probably growth. Whereas there've been other times where I've had to almost , rehearse my personality before I go into a meeting. And when you're in your mid forties or fifties and you are rehearsing your personality, that's not a growth.
[00:18:24] Dawn: Yeah.
[00:18:25] James: there are, you are absolutely right. Texture is the way to think about it. They're very different things.
[00:18:29] Dawn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
.
[00:18:47] Dawn: But if you've come away from that feeling completely drained and depleted,
that would be a different texture.
[00:18:57] James: But it's I just like, I did not work there at this point.
[00:20:05] Dawn: It does. , I didn't say my introductions as part of my work with the listening collective and doing therapy and organizations, this topic comes up a lot in sessions with people who are struggling with their version of whether they've, people internalize this and think it's them, or like, it comes up a lot.
This how I fit into this organization and is this right for me? To go back to what I said earlier about it, it takes us back to relational patterns that were created like way back when, what you are talking about. There can also be, and I know this from my own experience, like things that we've been told we should do.
Like if you've got somebody who's got three older siblings and they've all been very successful and gone off and done, amazing things. People carry around these messages that say, well, I should be successful. I should be the big manager. I, this is how I'm meant to be. . Like it's a thing you carry around that isn't really you. And I'm picking that sense of how someone has internalized that not fitting in and that discomfort, whether it's, self. Despair or whether it's anger at the organization.
Like it'll come up and manifest in lots of different ways. But actually some of it is, can be really historical. Like people carry around these how I ought to be in the world. And actually it isn't really them that make sense?
[00:21:29] James: But do you think, John, mean, are people good at noticing this in themselves or do they gonna
[00:21:34] Dawn: they're not
[00:21:35] James: Yeah. Go on.
[00:21:36] Dawn: like.
.
[00:21:36] Dawn: They're not, people aren't generally good at noticing this about themselves, and I think this also speaks to what are the cultural norms, organizationally, or just generally, people will think, well, it's me, I'm, it's me. That's the problem. That's really common. It's me. That's not competent. It's me that can't do it. It's me that's got the problem because I'm struggling with my.
Mental health, like people internalize the problem quite often. 
 Yes, it's a short answer. I would always start with slowing down. How often do any of us. Slow down to actually pay attention to what's going on for us in any given day like, or do we just move really quickly from one thing to another thing and actually bypass ourselves in? I just got really angry when Jimmy said that, and then we're on to the next thing within a millisecond, like yeah, I've still got the scars. Like we don't slow down. Pay attention to the feelings that might come up or like that contact boundary I was talking about earlier. Like there will be a physical or emotional sense of that at some level in you, but how often do we slow down to pay attention to it?
Like physiologically, I will quite often bring people's attention back into their body rather than just into your thoughts. 'cause physiologically there'll be a response, you probably will be tense in your meeting if you pay attention. Are your legs tense? So you're just like jiggling your knees up and down and my picking up my.
Top, like if you pay attention and slow down 
 Which is why I said at the beginning that I'm a Gestalt psychotherapist and that's really important because actually taking into account the whole field, my thoughts and my body and the organiz, like that's important 'cause we don't exist in isolation.
 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and like, like, just like a good starter for that often is like lit. And it sounds a contrite thing to say, but it really worked. Like, where's your breath? Like, if we're stressed, we'll hold our breath like up here.
And I can feel myself if I'm stressed and I'm up here, like it's a good sign that something's going on, and then you know where to start digging.
I can then start going, well actually what's happening here?
[00:24:55] James: So you start off with slowing down. So that really is about awareness. What else can you do?
[00:25:00] Dawn: I think you can. Like not just me, I don't mean to have therapy, although you can have
[00:25:04] James: yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:04] Dawn: but I would always suggest talking with people like, who do you trust?
Can you get another pair of eyes on something? Because I think it's very easy, and I do this myself to get lost in my own view of the world.
And actually, if I just speak to you, James, you probably give me a completely different perspective on the same situation.
 What do you mean? That's a big question.
 Yeah.
Yeah.
 Yeah, so there's a choice about whether to adapt and compromise and can you do that choiceful? I think doing it out of awareness is, can be dangerous, but doing it joyfully can be a good, can be a helpful thing. I am going to tuck my shirt in because I want to do well here, and actually it's no.
It's no skin off my nose. I'm happy to do it. And if I do that in a choiceful way, that's okay. We of, I often would ask people about whether they can be more authentic and what that would mean. Like if I did be more me, say more of the things I want to say, can I show up in this workplace and be more how I need to be?
Is that possible? Like where would your experiments in that be? Like if they don't have to be massive, but sometimes small changes in being me rather than feeling like I'm constantly compromising myself for the organization. That can be really helpful in terms of feeling like I've got some control over that.
'cause I can be me and the world doesn't collapse.
[00:27:10] James: But then I suppose there's a point here, John, which is, I might be looking at this and thinking, oh my God, I really do not fit in and I need to adapt, and I need to play some, yeah,
[00:27:20] Dawn: Yeah.
[00:27:21] James: I might be kidding myself altogether. It's a bit like my chats with my favorite friend Gemini. Gemini always tells me what I want to hear.
[00:27:29] Dawn: Yeah.
[00:27:29] James: wanna hear what it thinks I want to hear. I wanna hear what it
thinks. Do you see what I
mean? So it's perception of not fitting in may be totally wrong. So there's an element of, yeah, just being yourself some more and seeing what
[00:27:42] Dawn: Seeing what happened. Yeah. No.
 Yeah.
 Yeah. And that would be exactly the kind of work we would do with managers at the listening collective. 'cause it would be that it would, I would literally make that challenge. What would happen if you
just were a bit more you and didn't try to fit into something that maybe is your imagining of the situation?
It's not actually the situation. What would happen?
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[00:29:19] James: But then, so I suppose what we're saying is there are three things or three levels you go through. One is. Of being aware, is this a problem or not? Number two is, well, if it is a problem, trying stuff to see, is it really a problem? Is it just, I think there's an issue here. But then ultimately you do get to that decision point out, which is difficult.
But do I lean in or do I leave? Frankly?
[00:29:41] Dawn: Yeah.
[00:29:41] James: Yeah, which is the ultimate. But of course, if you leave, there's no guarantee you're gonna go to anywhere. That's only flipping better. So it's, it's not the panacea.
[00:30:06] Dawn: Yes.
I think we should be very conscious of when people agree with us all of the time or are, or quiet or seem to fit in perfectly. 'Cause no one ever does. It's a bit like the perfect child, right? Are it are my people just compromising themselves in order to please me? I think that would be a really good one.
[00:30:35] James: An interesting point there, Dylan. 'cause I think a lot of organizations, it is structural, right? They are set up to reward people who do what they say or do what is asked of them. Smile pleasantly. Yeah. And don't give people a hard time.
[00:30:54] Dawn: Or very quiet.
I think if people, I think if people are turning all of this in inside and blaming themselves, they will. Invariably be really quiet because they, it's me. That's the problem. Oh, I need to do better than
there's, there'll be an internal dialogue going on that won't be spoken out
[00:31:20] James: Yeah. All they're scared of the consequences of
[00:31:22] Dawn: that's added the consequences. Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I think you have the hard conversations and don't deflect from them. I don't think there's an easy answer to that. I dunno what you guys think, , one-to-ones are important for a reason. Because that's the space where you can actually level and ask the difficult questions and create a space where people can actually, be with some of this stuff and not just carry on playing out whatever the corporate picture is
[00:32:12] James: I think it takes time as well. Dawn. 
[00:32:13] Dawn: Just at time.
[00:32:15] James: yeah, so a bit like your story about the people who've been there 30 years, but I when I've had new teams, it takes a while for them to accept that yes, I do want 'em to challenge me. And now I'm not just saying it. And that can take six months. So it is almost repeatedly going back and saying, now I know you're nodding, but I don't think you agree with me.
What do you really think?
[00:32:35] Dawn: Yeah. I also think I'm hesitating answering the question because everything I'm saying and thinking sounds contrite, but that's because it is like, like the time spent, the being present, the like living and breathing this yourself and being human and imperfect and. , These are all things that, get talked about a lot, but done well, they are the fabric of this topic because then people feel like they're being met in their humanness.
If that's the right, like they're being met as a person rather than just in some corporate machine as an employee. and at that contact boundary, we were talking about this and I'm doing a workshop shortly about resistance to coaching your team. Like there's an organization we're working with that wants some help with like their manager's resistance to coaching their direct reports. And I think the biggest resistance to coaching and to some of these things you're talking about is conflict.
People are afraid of conflict. If I show up at me, if I ask a difficult question, if I go against the grain, it isn't gonna be smooth. And I think as managers, we need to accept that it isn't gonna be smooth.
[00:34:18] James: that is a nice
[00:34:24] Dawn: Yeah. Well
[00:34:25] James: done.
[00:34:25] Dawn: yeah, well it is. I'll listen to it, right? It.
[00:34:29] James: , I did do a little bit of research before this e episode and which as that might send you, but I looked, is there any evidence belonging, which is obviously the opposite of not fitting in. Belonging . Drives performance. And there is an HBR at Harvard Business Review article which says who think they belong perform three and a half times better now.
Clearly it has a big
[00:34:52] Dawn: Well, I also did some research on this before, and actually I would, I don't, I dunno whether it's three and a half times, but where I got to on that was because all of the energy that's being put into the things we were talking about earlier, whether I'm laughing and joking to deflect away from how I feel or whether I'm worrying internal, all those thi that takes energy.
And if I'm not putting that energy into all of that, I've now got energy to do my job and to perform better.
 Yeah,
[00:35:23] James: but then so belonging isn't about we all get along.
[00:35:26] Dawn: Yeah. I can be authentically me and not have to compromise more of me than I need to do my job.
 It'll be bumpy.
Yeah.
[00:36:31] James: good. No, I would say all of what Jimmy's just said because, and it's right back to the beginning of the podcast because it's fitting in, is activating relational patterns that go deep. That's why it's not simple 'cause you're activating something that is. Is really viscerally important.
[00:37:00] Dawn: It's always good fun. 
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