100 Episodes In: The Hard Truths About Management

After a hundred episodes of dissecting corporate nonsense, Jimmy and James finally admit what you already knew: the system is rigged, your boss matters more than your paycheck, and no one cares about your career as much as you do. This isn’t a highlights reel—it’s a reckoning.

From the delusion that “people can overcome a bad system” (spoiler: they can’t) to the farce of corporate purpose (hint: it’s usually just “make money”), the hosts expose the recurring patterns that make managers’ lives a living hell. They dissect how HR incentives turn good people into metric-gaming zombies, why your boss’s shadow looms larger than the company logo, and the cold truth that your employer will never love you back.

But it’s not all doom. There’s power in clarity: defining your team’s purpose (even if it’s just “sell more”), choosing your boss like you’d choose a flatmate, and detaching your ego from the corporate machine. And yes, it’s still all about people—flawed, emotional, and impossible to reduce to a spreadsheet.

So pour yourself a drink (or don’t—AA’s Serenity Prayer gets a shoutout) and listen to the hard-won wisdom of two men who’ve spent 100 episodes telling you what no one else will.

Five Key Points:

• The system always wins. No matter how brilliant your team is, a badly designed system will make them feel incompetent—and it’s not their fault.
• Purpose isn’t wallpaper. If your organisation’s “purpose” doesn’t match what actually happens, you’re just lying to yourself (and your customers).
• Your boss > your brand. That logo in the foyer? Irrelevant. Your boss’s ability to provide direction, space, and support? Everything.
• Your employer is not your friend. Redundancy, restructuring, or being passed over for promotion isn’t personal—it’s just business. Detach your ego.
• Manage your career or someone else will. If you outsource your career decisions, don’t be surprised when they’re made in someone else’s interest.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker: Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

[00:00:15] James: Good afternoon. How you 

[00:00:16] Jimmy: Afternoon, James. I'm doing?

well. How are you 

[00:00:19] James: I am absolutely fabulous. Thank you for asking. I would've thought that was self-evident just by looking at me, but 

[00:00:24] Jimmy: glowing. You're glowing. 

[00:00:26] James: the word. Yeah, the middled man sort of way. So what is today's episode about?

[00:00:31] Jimmy: Well, today we are doing something different. We are having a look back. We've had a hundred conversations now. Well, it feels like a thousand, but we've done a hundred episodes looking back about some of the challenges facing managers, and

the same.

Tensions keep coming up, . Different industries, different personalities, different organizations, the same underlying patterns come up. So this isn't. A highlights episode. It is our attempt to really say, if you are a manager, here's what , we think you're really dealing with.

So something might be a bit uncomfortable, that's where we are. 

[00:01:11] James: Fabulous. Sounds a bit deep.

[00:01:13] Jimmy: It will be James. Well, as deep as two shallow People like you and me

[00:01:16] James: People

[00:01:16] Jimmy: ever get 

[00:01:18] James: Always used to make me laugh, used to have deep dives and I used to think to myself, deep dive. You'd be bloody lucky if we went snorkeling.

[00:01:25] Jimmy: . Anyhow, first thing, James, 

[00:01:28] James: go on the first point I think is the most important point, which is. system that you're working in matters much more than you think.

[00:01:37] Jimmy: I think.

we should explain just briefly. 

[00:01:40] James: Is that not good enough? Is that what you're 

[00:01:42] Jimmy: No, but I think we have to ex, we should explain the system. 

[00:01:44] James: Go on in the system. So what do I mean by the system? So the system for me is the, it's the whole environment you're working in. So you've got. Processes, and you've got in infrastructure, but you've also got policies and you've got rules, and you've got incentives, and you've got the way in which people do things and you've got your HR policies and, but all of that stuff together has a massive impact on the way your organization works and stuff that you can do.

And much more so than people think. People don't stand back and look at that in the whole.

[00:02:19] Jimmy: Well, this is one of those points where my view has really sharpened up over this a hundred. Episodes that we've done. So originally I would've argued with you that actually people are more important than the system that you can overcome a badly designed system by the sheer brilliance of people. And as we've gone on, I think that actually you probably right, people feel that they are, it's being recorded. So you've got it. You can play it back on loop to yourself. I know what you like. It is a bit like you'll make Gemini.. But the, I guess the point is people often feel like they're failing no matter how hard they work and how talented they are because they're working in a badly designed system and it makes you feel incompetent.

And I think that actually that system has, it does have. A massive impact and I think I was probably overestimating the amount that people could overcome. And so I think, people look at , their own failings when actually it's a system that's causing it.

[00:03:27] James: Yeah. of it, and I hate to come back to it, but a lot of it is down to the HR incentives and policies and all of that people put in place. So a couple that struck out for 

[00:03:37] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:03:37] James: So you told the story about selling insurance on loans?

[00:03:41] Jimmy: Yes, check out our episode on reward and recognition. But yeah, it was the fact that the system, the way we were incentivizing people to behave, wasn't giving us the outcome that we wanted. And actually. The managers running those teams felt like they were trying really hard and doing a good job, but they still weren't getting the results.

The reason they weren't getting results is 'cause the system we'd set up incentivized people to do the wrong things. 

[00:04:06] James: Yeah. . Well, exactly. We focus on the wrong things. One of my other favorites was Bernie Smith who talked about, he gave the example of, you can do a prediction of life. You can tell how long people are like to live by the amount of time that they spend, or they are able to stand on one foot.

[00:04:21] Jimmy: Yes. 

[00:04:21] James: Of course. Yeah. The way the corporations would look at that is to start practicing standing on one bloody foot is pointless, right? So getting your inputs and your outputs and all of that wrong and putting your incentives around it just messes things up. 

[00:04:32] Jimmy: Are you telling? Are you telling me, James, you've not practiced staying on one foot? 

[00:04:36] James: So that's number one. The system matters more than you think. What's number two then?

[00:04:40] Jimmy: Well, I think the other common thing and again, going into these episodes, I would've, I wouldn't have believed this, but it's just become more and more important and apparent to me. But everyone talks about purpose, and. We see hardly anyone, any organizations doing this particularly well.

And it isn't just, a bit of, corporate wallpaper. It is actually a key. It's the reason why you're here as an organization. It's a reason why your people work for you, but it's always, it's implicit. It's somewhere in a deck somewhere. It's not a living and breathing thing, is it? 

[00:05:22] James: Well, very interesting. I think we talk a lot 

[00:05:25] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:25] James: but there's an awful lot of color and cuffs don't match up. So we'll say The purpose of this organization is to provide WorldCast customer service, so whatever hell it might be, really the purpose of this organization is to make a quick book and, customers can see it, employees can see it, but it just creates conflicts of being really clear about what your purpose is and then following through on it, I think is all important. A couple of organizations over the time that we've given a good dribbling about this, well, John said in a couple of episodes ago.

Gave the NHSA bit of a troubling about, how they're prioritizing a e waiting times that became their purpose, than looking at what patients actually needed. Horizon scandal, we talked 

[00:06:05] Jimmy: Yeah.

[00:06:05] James: There's another one. And one just to e emphasize how important it is, a quick story for you.

We jump up and down, we say, oh, the NHS is broken, yada yada, yada. But it really doesn't have to be that way. There's a hospital in or. Chain of hospitals in India called the Arab Die Hospitals. And certain I've discussed this before, but what they what they decided they wanted to do was they wanted to eradicate needless blindness.

And what this was in India was really get rid of cataracts. Some statistics for you. I bet you can hardly wait. But in 2009, the Aravinda Eye Hospital treated two and three quarter million patients, half of them for free.

It exceeded the care benchmark of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists. It did all of this and it turned to profit. So my point being, if you get really cute on what your purpose is. You can achieve some outstanding things, but most organizations are just a bit conflicted, which of course ties back to our point about systems.

[00:07:03] Jimmy: but I think I think on a more micro level, if you think back, our very first episode was on purpose and who knew we covered the most important thing on the first episode. But if you're running a team, , if you ask your team what are they here for? Do they all give you the same answer?

'cause one of the stories that I told in that first episode was when I was managing a sales team and we grandly figured out, no shit Sherlock, but we were there to make more sales. And I thought it was a completely pointless exercise to state that out loud. Whereas actually. It drove a whole load of action and you'd hear people talking about, as you walked around the operation, remember we discussed, does this help us make more sales?

So just that clarity sometimes of stating what you might think is the bleeding obvious that stops the amount of politics and anxiety and agendas and stuff like that. 'cause it enables people to focus in on what's important. So if you're running an organization or a team, I think this is massively applicable. 

[00:08:05] James: Yeah, well, but I think, well, as a, with the benefit of hindsight, making more sales was maybe not the greatest purpose you could have chosen for the organization, 

[00:08:14] Jimmy: seeing as we were selling PPI at the time 

[00:08:17] James: yeah. So we got a bit scandalous, , but it showed how powerful it was to 

[00:08:20] Jimmy: yeah. 

[00:08:21] James: to get the purpose right.

[00:08:22] Jimmy: Yeah, and like I say, it's important in understanding what your purpose is and how you incentivize that purpose. 'cause you are gonna get. What you lay out, you just need to be sure that's what you really want. 

[00:08:36] James: Right Then, so systems and purpose, what have we got next? Then?

[00:08:39] Jimmy: Well, next is your boss actually matters more to you than the company you work for. Now people choose their brand. I wanna work for this company or that company. But actually, once you've walked past that logo in the in the foyer, it's your boss , that casts the shadow on your day positively or negatively. 

So make sure you choose your boss as carefully as you choose the brand that you wanna work for. 

[00:09:10] James: . There is a little bit of research into this as well. There's a 

[00:09:13] Jimmy: Oh yeah. 

[00:09:13] James: Ju Julian Birkinshaw, or I can't remember if he's a professor of something somewhere. But he did a awful lot of work looking at what made a good boss and what made a bad 

[00:09:22] Jimmy: Oh yeah. What did he say? 

[00:09:23] James: yeah, so good bosses provides clear goals. And a consistent path forward, they don't flip flop about. And if they do change, they'll justify that change logically. So everybody knows what they're doing and why there's no confusion. So that's the 

[00:09:36] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:09:37] James: It comes back to our point about purpose really.

. And also, Alana Friedman talked a lot about this when she was talking about high performing tips. So that's the first thing, 

[00:09:44] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:09:46] James: The second thing just as important is space. 

[00:09:49] Jimmy: Right? 

[00:09:50] James: a good boss Grants autonomy. Yeah. They let you 

[00:09:53] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:09:53] James: out what you want to do and they let you get on with it. So you don't like having a boss who's on your back all the time. But then the final thing is we talked about is a good boss.

Provide support. He helps you get the resources you need. Yeah, provides guidance when you need it, and he shields you when you need it. 

[00:10:09] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:10:09] James: those are the three elements of a good boss. Things to look out for. Does this person provide direction, space and support?

[00:10:15] Jimmy: There's people listening to the podcast now thinking, why didn't these two discover this research when they were actually managing people? 

[00:10:22] James: Seriously, if you think back to the bad bosses you've got Hads, then they're never bloody clear what they wanted. 

[00:10:27] Jimmy: yeah. 

[00:10:28] James: They're never backed you up. Yeah. And they're always on your flipping 

[00:10:31] Jimmy: And I can correlate the enjoyment and performance that I've had at work. With whether I've had a good boss or a bad boss, I think it's all about me and no doubt it is but that there is a really strong correlation for me throughout my career. 

[00:10:47] James: And of course, at the risk of banging in the point too strongly, if you are somebody's boss, how good a boss are you

[00:10:54] Jimmy: Yeah. Think on 

[00:10:57] James: Deep 

[00:10:58] Jimmy: the flip side of this is. 

[00:11:01] James: it's like it's 

[00:11:01] Jimmy: Yeah. The flip side is that you've got to remember, and this is something that really has come home to us over this time, you've got to remember, your employer is not a person. They're not a real person. They cannot love you back no matter how much you love them.

They are a legal structure an entity. They're not a real person that you have a relationship with. 

[00:11:24] James: Right, and the point being is really bad to fall in love with your employer because as you say, they are a legal entity 

[00:11:32] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:11:32] James: there will be no love loss when it comes back the other way. 

[00:11:35] Jimmy: Yeah. And ultimately, I know this is horrible to say, ' but to an organization, you are a resource, you are a number, and so therefore, when stuff happens to you in that organisation I dunno. Examples would be redundancy. Redundancy isn't a betrayal.

You're passed over for promotions. It's not just rejection restructuring, it's not necessarily personal. All these things that are functions of a company running are things that we often take really to heart. And they are , often functional processes that occur in an organization. And so you can take them really hard because you take them really personally.

'cause this organization that I love has betrayed me. They're not a real person. 

[00:12:25] James: Yeah, although your boss might be what? 

[00:12:28] Jimmy: That could be the case. And so you can combine the last two, 

[00:12:32] Speaker 2: Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more. 

[00:12:40] Speaker 3: I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do. 

[00:12:48] Speaker 2: So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website.

We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.

[00:13:02] James: So what's the key point here then?

[00:13:05] Jimmy: So I think the thing for me is when I realized that the organization I was working for wasn't disappointed in me. It was making a commercial decision about me and my role and my future.

I found it quite liberating, it felt a lot less personal and helped me move on with my career and my life. 

[00:13:26] James: Yeah, so if you can detach your ego from the organization, said, 

[00:13:30] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:13:31] James: If you can do it, you'll be in a better place.

[00:13:33] Jimmy: And it doesn't mean that you shouldn't care, but just get some balance in it. 

[00:13:37] James: Yeah. Which leads us on, I think to our our next points, which is you need to be intentional about your career. Don't Bob along, take hold of your career 'cause nobody else is gonna do it for you.

[00:13:49] Jimmy: Yeah, and I think often what we've found in our discussions, some of the subjects that we've talked about around managing your career, managing upwards, networking, they've been amongst our most popular subjects. A lot of it is because sometimes I think we are guilty of outsourcing the management of our career.

We just go with the flow. It's what the organisation wants from me. I'll do a good job and then I'll get on. And life's just not that simple, unfortunately. 

[00:14:21] James: . And there's a quote, I can't remember exactly what it was, but something along the lines of, if you don't manage your own career, somebody will start managing it for you 

[00:14:28] Jimmy: Yeah. 

[00:14:28] James: And they won't be doing it to your best 

[00:14:29] Jimmy: interests We talked about that not so long ago, and I was sharing with you , one of our old bosses said to me, that I was just letting him make decisions on whether I got promoted and what job I did. And he was doing it from his perspective, what suited him, what was in his best interest.

And I was leaving it into the lap of the gods if I thought that he was thinking about what was best for me. 'cause he wasn't, he was thinking about what was best for him, what was best for , for the organization. You might be lucky. And those things might overlap, but quite often they don't.

And don't outsource your career to somebody else. 

[00:15:05] James: . And so don't forget in the immortal words of Baz Luman, we sunscreen, else is gonna put it on for you,

[00:15:13] Jimmy: Did you know, James, that they've updated that song for 

[00:15:16] James: they? 

[00:15:16] Jimmy: today? For today's era? Yeah. 

[00:15:18] James: Ah, and has it got any words of wisdom

[00:15:21] Jimmy: Basically avoid social media, 

[00:15:24] James: So where does that take us? Maybe to our final point. 

[00:15:27] Jimmy: which is. 

[00:15:30] James: In the end, it's all about people, 

[00:15:33] Jimmy: So basically, yeah we've gone on an Arc James to say we thought that you were right because it's all about the systems and now we're getting to that over the a hundred episodes. We are reflecting back on it. And actually one of the undeniable truths are it is all about. People, yes, systems matter and they shape the behavior, but the system is fundamentally made up of humans. 

[00:16:02] James: Yeah, you can't take the man out of the machine. The two things are totally interlinked because yeah, people shape the systems. The systems are made of humans Every incentive lands in a nervous 

system They all, you just go

[00:16:15] Jimmy: Every meeting is emotional. It's not just, it's not all rational. If you are managing people, you're not just managing resources. People are a whole bundle of needs, fears, ambitions, egos, insecurities, identities include including your own impact set, . 

[00:16:36] James: You've got to think about the human in the machine. You can't divorce. The two and lots of management practice are very resource hungry and mechanistic, which comes back to my pet hate hr.

Yeah. Which, and you're thinking about it, if you change the name of human resources to human insecurities, do you think they'd behave differently?

[00:16:55] Jimmy: James, you've got a, like a real thing about hr. We worked with some great HR people in the past. They'll be listening to this thinking, James always hated us and that's not true. 

[00:17:05] James: the C-I-P-D-A good stab him. But there's the question, what are the implications of your persistence on your people? How will they respond? And, don't be too surprised.

[00:17:15] Jimmy: think one of the impacts on, , well, both on the human side and the system side, these are quite complex things. Your system, your work system is complex. Complex, and you're multiplying that by the humans. You put in it. And in today's. Day and age, all we're interested in is simple solutions.

Whether it's the bosses at the top of the organization, the shareholders the media, whatever it is, everything is designed to what's the quick, easy, simple solution. And when you've got that complexity, that ain't always gonna be the case, is it? 

[00:17:48] James: Oh, rarely is. So let's summarize that then. Then go on then. So what are your words of wisdom a hundred episodes in.

[00:17:55] Jimmy: So a hundred episodes. There are certain truths that I think if you had asked us before we did any of these episodes, I think we would've said some of these are the case. But I think our opinions over a hundred episodes have been sharpened up. Because of that complexity. It's not about controlling everything, it's about navigating the system and navigating the tensions and the complex of, dealing with a bunch of humans 

, 

[00:18:22] James: Fundamentally it's about being intentional about your choices.

[00:18:25] Jimmy: Yeah. And as the prayer of Serenity says James, 

[00:18:29] James: Where did you find out about the of Serenity?

[00:18:32] Jimmy: they use it Alcoholics Anonymous. Not that I have a drinking problem.

[00:18:35] James: Go on. So what does the of Serenity.

[00:18:36] Jimmy: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference

[00:18:46] James: And on that note of wisdom, I think we should call it quits. Thank you for listening to the first a hundred episodes. 

[00:18:51] Jimmy: onto the next hundred. 

[00:18:53] James: , That's a nice thought. See you later. 

[00:18:55] Jimmy: Thanks everyone. 

[00:18:56] Speaker 4: We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help.

[00:19:25] Speaker 5: If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.