The Job You're Never Fully Prepared For: Managing People

Managing people is the corporate equivalent of being handed a live grenade with the pin already pulled. You’re promoted because you’re brilliant at your day job—only to discover that managing humans requires a completely different skill set, one nobody bothers to teach you. Welcome to the brutal, hilarious, and occasionally soul-crushing reality of middle management.

In this episode of A Job Done Well, Jimmy and James dissect the moment they realised they were woefully unprepared for leadership. From James’s early days of bollocking subordinates (and then apologising) to Jimmy’s face-off with a delusional cashier who insisted she was never late (spoiler: she was), they expose the absurdity of being thrust into a role that demands empathy, judgment, and the ability to fake confidence while secretly questioning every decision.

The hosts explore why organisations promote technical experts into managerial roles without a shred of training, and why the so-called “soft skills” are actually the hardest to master. They also reveal the uncomfortable truth: even after decades of experience, you’ll still encounter situations that leave you out of your depth. Whether it’s navigating office politics, handling emotional meltdowns, or simply learning not to micromanage, managing people is less about control and more about creating an environment where everyone—including you—can do their best work.

Transcript

Speaker 3 0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy 0:15

Nice afternoon. are we talking about today? Afternoon, James. Today, We are talking about managing people. The job nobody trains you for, A lot of middle managers are promoted because they're brilliant at their day job, whatever it is. They were outperforming, and they get promoted to a job. That rep requires a completely different set of skills from what they were good at. Nobody really trains you managing people. Although James, you always love managing people, don't you?

James 0:42

I'm gonna be controversial about that one shortly.

Jimmy 0:45

Let's get to that in a second. But the skills that got you promoted, stop being the ones that you need. Today we are going to be talking about the moment that we realized that what we did about it, and yeah. For you, James, it turned out that your Excel skills didn't really help when it was all kicking off in your team

James 1:03

Excel skills don't help. Although I have to admit, I have never been promoted because I was brilliant at doing my job, so that would be, was wrong as well. But let's move on.

Jimmy 1:11

Well that's'cause you were never brilliant at doing your job, that was an obvious one to walk into. So I guess, when did you realize that, when it came to managing people, that you just didn't have a clue what you were doing?

James 1:25

I was lucky enough when I started work to work for an exceptionally good boss.

Jimmy 1:32

Right.

James 1:32

because of that, I think, and there will be people who are listening to this, who work for me well, who will no doubt be glad to disabuse me of this. But I don't think, other than a couple of horrors, which we'll come and talk about. ever been that path. I've never had that. Oh my God. I'm at my death at the moment, but it is because I had about seven or eight years of working for somebody who was really fantastic.

Jimmy 1:55

There must have been a moment though when you felt that you were a little bit outta your depth, no matter how much arrogance you had.

James 2:02

what you don't realize is nobody let me really manage people until I was eight years in.

Jimmy 2:05

Fair enough. Well, personally, when I worked in betting shops, I was a really good cashier. I like, I was brilliant. I could, I got to the point where one of the things at the time that you judge yourself on was how many bets you could take in a day. And I could take a thousand bets on my tour. That was like unheard of. That's like what shop did. And I got promoted to managing people and I've always got on well with people and I was okay. But you know the point I thought, hang on a minute, this is not as quite as straightforward as I thought was. I was managing a betting shop in chalk farm, and I had this cashier and she was probably 20 years older than me, something like that. And I was only like 19 I think at the time. Anyhow, she kept on coming in late. And I found it really difficult. I was trying to explain to her, this was a problem. She's coming in late and she did it regularly and it was risky because you couldn't open your shop on your own for fear of being robbed. So there was a security angle to it, and in the end I had to get my supervisor down. To talk to her about it'cause I just couldn't get through to her. Two things that brought it home to me. One, I couldn't get through to her that, me explaining nicely about being late was a problem. Two, when she sat down with my supervisor, she turned around and said that she was never late. And it was because I opened the shop early every day. Okay. What'd you say to that? How'd you deal with that sort of delusion and at that point I was like, oh, this isn't as straightforward as I thought. You'd just be nice to people and everything would be wonderful.

James 3:29

Yeah. I suppose coming back to my arrogant point to start over, I think the thing is I never had a proper job,

Jimmy 3:35

Right.

James 3:35

When I left university, alright,

Jimmy 3:37

Yeah.

James 3:38

worked in a shop and God knows what before that, but I went straight in as a management trainee. So my first job As a, yeah. So I've never been a cashier.

Jimmy 3:46

yeah. Yeah.

James 3:47

operative. I've never been a claims handler. I have never done a proper job. I have always been management, if that makes

Jimmy 3:55

There's, there's,

James 3:56

on things.

Jimmy 3:57

There's a load of people listening to this saying, like, I knew he never knew how to handle a claim. I knew now he knew. He never understood how the job was really done.

James 4:05

But they'd be right. Yeah. And I wouldn't be saying I was, I was perfect because I was far from perfect, but was very lucky in the way that was trained. But there were a couple of things that I did, which I just.

Jimmy 4:17

Go on then. Tell me about some of those imperfections then James.

James 4:19

the one I just, I remember various, obviously about 22, 23, something like that. I

Jimmy 4:24

I.

James 4:24

assistant manager and I've got a team of two or three people working for me. And one guy called Ian and he, oh, he'd messed something up. It didn't matter what he messed up. He had messed it up. But I just brought him into my office,'cause I had an office at the time and I just gave him a real bollocking. And halfway through this Bull King, I just thought, well, what, why are you doing this for James? How do you think this is gonna give you a good Like, I'd seen people being bollock elsewhere. I'd obviously picked it up from somewhere, but fortunately I had the sense to go and apologize to him afterwards. And I think that is the only time I've ever bollock somebody'cause it's just not helpful.

Jimmy 5:00

Yeah. Yeah.

James 5:01

The other one, and I'm sure there are other occasions, but, so Ann if you're listening I do apologize for this. I made Ann cry.

Jimmy 5:08

Oh.

James 5:08

This is when this was, much the start of the email. Yeah. And it was all, we had the conversation about intercompany mail. Do you remember those things you used to,

Jimmy 5:16

Yeah. Yeah.

James 5:17

do. it was that age and the organization I worked for, it was quite a big thing. If you're gonna write a memo, make sure it's just one page long.'cause people don't read memos more than one page. So Anne

Jimmy 5:27

Yeah.

James 5:27

and this thing was about two and a half pages long. I said, Anne, you need to get it crisper suite, you need to make it shorter. So she went away and made it shorter and it said, came back and it was one and a half pages long. No, you're not getting it. It needs to be a page long. If it's not a page long, nobody will read it. So she went away and she was innovative She reduced the font size. So she got it down to

Jimmy 5:46

That old chestnut.

James 5:48

So then of course I I told her that was cheating of course I got back to me that I made her cry. I just felt like such a heel for making this poor girl cry. But it's things like that when you, when it goes badly for you. when you

Jimmy 5:59

Yeah,

James 6:00

yeah, a, that it's not quite that straightforward and you don't have the skills you need.

Jimmy 6:04

and I think that's the point though, isn't it really? It's you didn't have this experience, which I appreciate, you'd have seen it lots of times. People who are really good at a job. You promote them to the next level up and, then you start managing people and, if you're a decent enough human, which a lot of us are, you kinda get on with well people, and then stuff happens and it's, when that stuff happens, you think, hang on a minute, I am woefully unprepared for this. And just, fast forwarding, a long while. Another good example of that was I was managing one team and one person who joined the team, we had massive problems with them. And, I was trying to get the best job out of them and I just couldn't, I just, I literally hated me. And I had a, an. Guy who was doing some work with me at the time, who was, doing some teamwork stuff and he took me aside, said to me, you just need to be careful because it's not within your capability to sort this person out. They need proper, psychological help as opposed to you are going to be able to coach them to your better. And it's stuff like that. Even when I was really experienced at managing people, you're still finding your limits and you're finding stuff that you can't really deal with. And I think that's the challenge is you get promoted and what preparation do you have for this job? I,

James 7:24

So you've got three levels going on here. You've got managing a team of

Jimmy 7:28

Yeah.

James 7:28

an outcome.

Jimmy 7:29

Yeah.

James 7:30

You've got, how do you manage people, which is what we get an awful lot of schooling on, and I'll start froing about that shortly. But then you've got how do you manage individuals? And I think when you've got an individual who's got a real problem for whatever reason that might be, then you can get outta your depth very

Jimmy 7:48

Yeah.

James 7:49

having the ability or the support structure around you of people who can help you, I think is all important.

Jimmy 7:56

I had a nice graduation from managing like a small shop with one cashier to a bigger shop with a few to, a team of like half a dozen, 10, is is a different set of skills when you're talking about managing one individual, whether they've got problems or not, versus teams. But I just found that the stuff that I'd learned that made me really good at, doing the technical side of the job wasn't the stuff that then

James 8:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy 8:21

But that's just how organizations think about it, isn't it?

James 8:24

I think it's a structural issue, isn't it? Right? So people, they reward technical competence and you quite often see very pointy, heady people in jobs, which they shouldn't really have because although it might be great if the world's best computer program or the best claims handler or whatever the hell it might be, it does not give you the skill to, to manage people. But I think it goes a bit more than that. It's what did you say? I think you said once it management requires people judgment, so it's the ability understand how people will respond and oh, I had a boss once, he was quite cute He said, managing a group of people's, like managing a. A canoe where they're rowing down the Amazon, one of those log canoes.

Jimmy 9:07

Yeah. Yeah.

James 9:08

You've got two or three people at the front rowing like crazy and keen and enthusiastic and wanting to get to wherever hell it was. two or three people at the bottle who just, lying there with their hands in the water doing booger all, and you got 10 people in the middle. And he said the trick is not to worry too much about the people at the back. You can't do anything about them, just get shot. question is, how can you get the guys in the middle who aren't giving it their all

Jimmy 9:34

Yeah.

James 9:34

their all? And so for me, not so much about managing people, it's about how do you create that environment where you get everybody to want to row as hard as you can, and that fits the challenge.

Jimmy 9:45

I did work in one organization where to get to a certain level in the organization, you had to cycle through working in some of the operational teams. The theory was that if you want to get to really senior levels in an organization, you need people management, people leadership skill. And unless you've got that experience, you're not gonna be able to do it. So yes, technical competency is what you get promoted on. If, let's exaggerate right, the governor of the Bank of England, he needs technical competence in the economics. That's got to be a given. He is leading a big organization and he's managing a huge amount of processes and work that keeps the country's economy afloat. So if he was just a brilliant economist we'd have a problem.

James 10:33

Well,

Jimmy 10:33

I think it is.

James 10:34

that's really interesting you choose that example because if you look, and I'll compare and contrast two managers, Donald Trump and Mark Carney. So Mark Carney Canada was the governor of the Bank of Income for a while. But the

Jimmy 10:47

He was.

James 10:47

comes through in spades is that Mark Kearney understands the people

Jimmy 10:52

Yeah.

James 10:52

him, whereas Donald Trump really doesn't understand how people are going to respond. He's quite binary in his view of things, and so you're right, absolutely understanding how people are gonna behave and why it's all important.

Jimmy 11:08

So onto one thing where I think we have a different view on the title of the the episode was the job No one Trains You for, but your view would be slightly different. So you were trained for that?

James 11:20

Yeah, so I was, and I had two type, well, so my history, right? So I started as a management trainee. In the first two years of my career, I worked for six different people and was one job every four months. And you move on and you move

Jimmy 11:34

Yeah.

James 11:34

on. And actually looking back at that was really very helpful. Because it wasn't so much what I learned technically in those jobs. It was what I learned from watching the people who I was working for,

Jimmy 11:46

Yeah,

James 11:46

and there were two or two three of those people who were really good and two or three were really bad. But that is actually, you learn a huge amount watching people who were bad managers, but I had

Jimmy 11:57

you do.

James 11:58

Yeah, so that

Jimmy 11:59

Yeah.

James 11:59

Then the next

Jimmy 12:00

So sorry, just on, on that, James. That, but that is you are right. You can learn from working for lots of different people, but that was a very privileged experience because

James 12:09

agree.

Jimmy 12:09

You don't get to, normally, you wouldn't get to see that within a couple of years. See all that. Different examples,

James 12:14

agree. But I was very lucky. And

Jimmy 12:16

but no.

James 12:16

I got luckier still'cause then I went and worked for a guy who was possibly the best manager I've ever worked for and I worked for him for six years. And,

Jimmy 12:24

Yeah.

James 12:25

people used to say, well, he is just a professional manager, by which they meant, he just had this way of understanding how people were going to behave, what was important and how to get the best outcome. And he was also very clear on the best outcome. So I say, I never had that experience, that is why,'cause that is what my, my background was but when you talk about managing people, I hear people say, oh, he's a good people manager. And I just think, well, it's missing the right tipping point because a lot of what we think about is people management is are you good at setting smart goals and have you been on the difficult conversation stuff? And it's all just very mechanistic. This is how you manage a human resource. We've all had loads of that, but it doesn't teach you in how people behave or how people respond.

Jimmy 13:11

I think that's the key is for a lot of people, it's in at the deep end. Here's your team, here's your job, here's your shop, here's your whatever, and you crack on. And then I think, but I think you're right when you get that training, the training is about the process of managing people as opposed to. Like your description of the best person you'd worked for. It's understanding people, it's understanding the environment you're working in and how do you create the right environment. And I think that when people talk about. They're a good people manager. What they often just are is somebody who's quite personable and they get on well with people and therefore they get a job outta them. That's slightly different from actually, I've been trained to understand how people work and how the environment works, and I think that's where, I think the training is missing there.

James 14:03

and I think there's a couple of reasons for that, right? Well, so a lot of managers don't get it, I don't think, if you're the type of guy who comes in and shouts and screams at people and bullies and

Jimmy 14:14

Yeah.

James 14:14

'cause you just don't get it. You don't get it. So how can you. Train people in something that you don't get. So that's the first thing.

Jimmy 14:21

Yeah.

James 14:22

thing is it's really bloody hard to codify. I have a go codify a bit, but it's easy to say, well this is how you write an Excel spreadsheet for me. Because you can

Jimmy 14:31

Yeah,

James 14:31

Yeah, but actually how do you create an environment where people can do their best work? Bloody hell. That's a difficult thing to explain. And so

Jimmy 14:39

well.

James 14:39

you can't codify, it's very difficult to do training on it.

Jimmy 14:43

And that picks up a theme from the last couple of episodes we talked about, what had we seen over the a hundred episodes? And what we had seen was about the importance of the system you create and the complexity of humans in it. And then we talked to Paul Howley about transformation, and one of the things we're talking about there was that people will revert to tech as an easy answer because actually, as you rightly say. Humans are complex. So when you try and codify, how do I manage all the myriad of human reactions and emotions, geez, you'd be there forever. Which is back to my point, was even when I was a really experienced people leader, I was still finding the limits and I was finding the things I couldn't deal with the whole time. You know what I mean? Because it is such a complex subject, you can't boil it down easily.

James 15:32

we get caught up as well, don't we?'cause we talk about hard skills and soft skills and your hard skills being the technical things. Can you write this legal jargon? Can you, whatever it might be. But the soft skills, the way in which you get on with people in the workplace,

Jimmy 15:46

Yeah.

James 15:46

that's the really valuable stuff. And B, frankly, that's the hard bit. So although we recognize and value hard skills, it's the soft skills that really get you where you need to be.

Jimmy 15:56

Yes. No, I agree.

James 15:58

So you asked me what did I have to do when I started working? What was my actual

Jimmy 16:02

Yeah.

James 16:02

right, so I did start in a management job, but my job was, I was a research and development manager. it was a lowly research and development manager. It's all about innovation and ideas and seeing possibilities and having a bit determination to make things happen and that was who I was and what I did. But actually that's all right. Until you stick in a factory at four flipping am in the morning and it's freezing cold outside and you're trying to persuade people to have another go at pouring barbecue sauce over more chicken burgers so you're right, there's a very big difference between getting the most out of the people and the technical skills that you've got.

Speaker 16:38

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Speaker 2 16:46

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Speaker 16:55

So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website. We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.

Jimmy 17:09

But I think that the point is whether you are, learning about how to create the environment or learning from people who do this really well, I think it does come back to your openness and your ability to learn in the job. Because whether you're thrown in at the deep end or you had the privilege that you had in terms of the courses you did. You've still got always lots to learn. And if you are closed off to that, you're gonna have a problem. And so I do think, I think now even if you and I went back into, working with people and leading people and managing organizations, we'd still find stuff that would be out. We'd be out of our depth.

James 17:47

And it's not, there's so much you have to be good at, right? So you might need to be good at coaching. Am I a good coach? Probably not. You might need to be good at conflict management. Well, I probably create more than I've ever managed. You know what I mean?

Jimmy 18:01

Yeah.

James 18:01

But I am good at being really clear about what needs to be done, and I'm good at making decisions and I am good at, I say, getting people the resources they need or creating that environment. So my point being, we've all got skills in this place, but none of us, I don't think have got the perfect set of skills.

Jimmy 18:20

No, but I think being aware of the skills that you have and playing to your strengths, so. Another good example, James, you said, are you a very good coach? Well, I don't think I'm a very good coach, so, I do more mentoring work than I do coaching now, because mentoring work, you can use your advice and you can guide people with your advice, whereas coaching, you've got to have the patience and draw things out of people. And I, I don't have that. So I think it is a bit about, what am I good at? And play to your strengths. But if I take a step. Back to those early mistakes that you made with Anne and Ian and I made a myriad as, as well, I guess that there were a few things that I found that, I did consistently through the first few years of kind of managing people. I got promoted because I was a really good cashier and then. I carried on doing that aside on the side of doing my day job as well. So I would, I wouldn't delegate my work. I'd just carry on doing it myself, if it got busier, I'd work harder and if I had somebody who was rubbish at their job. Yeah, I know, but that's what so many people do that.

James 19:30

doing job properly, would

Jimmy 19:32

Yeah and you avoid the difficult conversation. You don't say to somebody, actually, you're not doing a good enough job. I'm having to serve, all the customers.'cause as a shop manager, your job was to manage a shop, but also you were there to serve the customers so you could do all the work yourself. You didn't tackle those things head on and, they start off as a little irritation. They become a massive issue if you don't they're like mushrooms, they grow in the dark. If you don't, air your, air your problems. They just grow and grow. So I think that's, there was loads of things that, that I did early on in my career that I look back on. I think, ugh, just should have sharpened up on, on those without a doubt. What about you, James? What could you tell us, from the Ian and Ann? What were the common mistakes that you made then?

James 20:18

I think for me it was probably a lack of empathy, understanding what people were going through. Yeah. I think that probably would be the biggest thing would be my problem. Yeah, so not understanding was driving people's behavior.

Jimmy 20:33

Yeah. No, but it's interesting though, James, that the mistakes I talked about in my early on in my career and you maybe lacking empathy. I bet you if you went to the last team that we managed,

James 20:46

like empathy.

Jimmy 20:47

They would still say that some of those things still there. So, it might be different, it might be less, but. There's still be, there's still a being in existence.

James 20:58

So go on then. So what would you say, what would be the practical examples or the insights? What would you tell people? What do people have to do differently?

Jimmy 21:07

So I think we can divide some of the simple things that you can do differently into two blocks. One is about changes in how you think about things, so your mindset. And the other one is actual practical things that we might have touched on, but we can probably revisit.

James 21:22

Yeah.

Jimmy 21:23

just on the first bit, in terms of shifts of mindset. I think back to that technical job to, it's a different set of skills. You have to move from, I'm the expert that knows everything. To, actually, to your point, my job here is to enable other people's performance. So I don't need to know everything. It's what am I doing and how am I thinking about that?

James 21:47

Yeah, but there's an interesting one here, right? Because most people think they have been promoted to be the boss, and by definition, being the boss is about bossing people. About what you've said there, and I totally agree with you, is that whole thing about the inverted pyramid, the

Jimmy 22:02

Yeah.

James 22:03

up the organization you go, the more your job is to support the people below you. So I totally agree, but most managers just do not see that at all.

Jimmy 22:11

I think it is a really powerful change that you can make by changing that thinking. Also leaving behind the, what made me great previously was this, therefore I just do more of that. When you shift to managing people, that doesn't apply anymore.'cause as we said, it's different set of skills I think another shift in how you think is you're there to just do. And do more to actually, how do you think about things? How do you decide, how do you make decisions? How do you set direction? How do you create purpose?

James 22:40

Well,

Jimmy 22:41

those things.

James 22:42

I know we bang on about this all the time, but purpose.'cause your job as

Jimmy 22:45

Yeah.

James 22:46

is to decide where the hell we're going.

Jimmy 22:48

Yeah.

James 22:49

Because if people

Jimmy 22:50

And.

James 22:50

where they're going, don't be surprised if they're not gonna get there.

Jimmy 22:53

No. And I think that the third shift that you can make from a mindset perspective that will be helpful is going from thinking you have to have all the answers to actually

James 23:03

do have

Jimmy 23:03

an asking questions. Back to the episode we did with Graham Rain Bird, the using the power of questions rather than think, you have to be know. So I think there are some

James 23:12

Well, sorry,

Jimmy 23:13

shifts, right?

James 23:13

on with that, with an example then.'cause it is very much in today's work day like using an ai,

Jimmy 23:19

Yeah.

James 23:20

Because you've got this AI give you all the answers to any flipping question. You think of the thing he knows everything, but

Jimmy 23:27

Yeah.

James 23:27

is to be able to ask the right questions. It's

Jimmy 23:30

Yeah.

James 23:30

important.

Jimmy 23:32

I think there's also a funny irony about how the tech bros and the engineers of this world who are not really renowned for understanding humans, call them prompts rather than questions. I think it's an interesting,

James 23:45

you've got those mindsets. Let's just go that through, that expert to enabler doing, to deciding and answers to questions.

Jimmy 23:52

Yeah. On the practical side of things though, I think one of the key things you touched on many times, which you said bosses were very good at, was creating that clarity of expectation. What are you there for? What's the purpose? And if you can give people that real clarity about their sense of purpose and how their job fits in, I think that's one of the things that helps establish that overall, system that we all work in. I think Then another thing would be just have regular conversations with people in your teams, how do you understand, what's going on for them? How do you understand them as people? Also, how do you give them feedback? To my point about feedback being like mushrooms, if don't deal with stuff. Early problems just grow and grow. So give feedback early.

James 24:40

Well, and actually feedback works both ways.

Jimmy 24:43

Yes.

James 24:44

So there's a lovely story about firefighters. Was on the west coast of the States, and this woman actually did. A study of different fires and some fires. People you know.

Jimmy 24:53

Yeah.

James 24:54

Got into control really quickly and other fires said, just gone horribly wrong and thousands of acres have burned down. And she tried to understand what was the difference and the key thing was what they are. The burn boss is a great name, isn't it? What do you do for your living? I'm a burn boss. to be burn boss. But the good burn boss is what they were do really doing good at, was walking around and talking to their people and understanding, what was happening in their environment because, oh, I dunno, the undergrowth could change the geography could change whether it was hilly or not. The wind could change direction. There are all sorts of things that could change, but just by getting that constant feedback from the people who were working for you, that's what made successful boom bosses really good. So you're right, communication all important. If you're gonna lock yourself away in an office somewhere, you'll never get anywhere. But it does go both ways.

Jimmy 25:44

And in terms of going both ways, that can be one of the most powerful but most scary things you can do. Ask your team for feedback on how you are doing because you're otherwise, you're in danger of creating the environment in the way that you think is right Ask them questions.

James 26:01

Yeah. And Of doing that which are less. It sounds really threatening, doesn't it, asking your team for feedback, but you'd have

Jimmy 26:07

I, it can be really scary.

James 26:09

but you'd have to count the question that way.

Jimmy 26:10

No,

James 26:11

should we be doing different is very different question from, tell me if I'm a good person, boss or not.

Jimmy 26:17

no. And, but yeah, you can you can talk in terms of, how can I help you? Do a better job as opposed to, do you like me? Am I good boss? The, that's the point about thinking about the questions you ask, that you can couch the questions in a much more subtle way that force people to be less judgmental

James 26:36

But what's really interesting is the answer to what can I do to help you is invariably leave me the fuck alone so I can get on with my job. Yeah. Or maybe get me this resource or whatever. But

Jimmy 26:47

Yeah,

James 26:47

go into it thinking, well, if I keep asking that, I'm just going do with a pile of work. You won't. It just shows that you're supporting people.

Jimmy 26:54

but that I think is another key practical behavior that people can pick up is give people the space. To deliver the ownership of the things that they're meant to be delivering, but let them know that the support's there when they need it. So we touched on it in a previous episode, it's the kind of concept of being an umbrella of, how do you keep the people dry and keep them being able to work, in the right way.

James 27:19

pissing it down. Yeah,

Jimmy 27:20

Yeah. Yeah, because, and that's a great point, James, because quite often you put'em in an umbrella, but you do go even further. You put'em in a little bubble where they're protected. And I've worked with organizations as you have where you know, it's so protective. They don't actually realize it's pissing down. The reason they're not getting wet is because you are providing them that with that support.

James 27:42

Yeah, go. Anything else practically?

Jimmy 27:46

Well, I think the other thing is practically is treat people like individuals. And we sometimes we can get caught in the, everyone thinks the way I do and feels the way I do and so therefore if I do something that's logical and sensible to me, it's gonna work for all of my team. That's not how it works. So, understand people and treat them as individuals.

James 28:07

And that reminds me of so another organization I worked for, I was working in a factory I used to work for a boss called Bill, and Bill wasn't my boss. He was my boss's boss. Right. So Bill was my, intergalactic vice president of this organization. But he walked through the factory, he'd always say, hello James, how's it going? And he always had time for me,

Jimmy 28:26

Yeah.

James 28:26

but that just, that very app meant that I would do anything for flipping Bill, just'cause he knew what my name was. So just, treat people as individuals, recognize them. You aren't that important.'cause that will, they'll go through walls for.

Jimmy 28:39

As a leader, as a manager, whatever you wanna call it, you cast a massive shadow over the people in your organization. It's a massive. Responsibility and privilege, and therefore you've got to treat it in that way. So I think we've touched on some key mindset shifts that you can make and some practical behaviors, but there are lots of ways that you can build this capability. And I think you touched on one of the key ones, which is observe people around you.

James 29:07

Oh, and I think that's the most powerful, the real questions I've, I've worked for some, well, we're stuck naming names, but some real toss pots, but actually. do you learn from that person? Because, oh, my daughter worked for somebody in her first job and she really didn't like her at all. But I just said to her, well, this is really valuable. Don't be that person. You

Jimmy 29:25

Yeah.

James 29:25

know not to do. And knowing what not to do is actually many ways more valuable than knowing what to do. And coming back to my initial experience of work, the first eight years of my life, I actually worked for a very good well run company. But then you expect everything is going to be well run and done that

Jimmy 29:42

Yeah.

James 29:43

you get into this sort of halo of, oh, isn't this the world way, the world is, I actually learned more by working for some absolute horrors after the event.'cause that's what you really learn how things shouldn't do. So yeah, observe, get the opportunity to work with those people and observe and say, what do I like about this person and what don't I like?

Jimmy 30:02

And I think there are lots of resources out there online that you can get help from outside of your company. But if you are being sped and fed some of the training that we talked about. It doesn't necessarily mean it's all bad. I think one of the key things about approaching any training is if you are going to spend time on it, either through your choice or because you've been sent on it, try and be open to what you can get from it. Even if a lot of it is nonsense. So just to wrap things up then, James, tell me three things that you wish you'd known earlier in your career about managing people.

James 30:40

So the big one I think is people don't like to be controlled.

Jimmy 30:45

Right

James 30:46

have told you the parable about the sun and the wind. Have I told you

Jimmy 30:48

now, go on.

James 30:49

myself. So there's a bloke walking down the streets he's got coat. And the sun and the wind have a bet, and the wind says, I bet you I can get that bloke's coat off. And the sun goes, yeah, okay, on you go. the wind blew and blew as hard as he can. Gale Force 10, all the bloke did was just to pulled his coat, round him tighter. Yeah. the sun came out and just shone nice and bright, and the bloke got a little bit warm and took his coat off. So it really is. Yeah. How do you, well, yeah, people don't like being controlled. So there on then. So there you go. That's my best one. The sun and the wind. What have you got?

Jimmy 31:22

So my first one is the, it's back to that thing about technical expertise and just have a bit more humility because your job is no longer to be the smartest person in the room. You no longer have to be the expert at everything. So just have the humility and start to learn.

James 31:42

Oh, that's an interesting one. So I'll pile on that one. And actually, if you think your job is to be the smartest person in the room and have a bunch of idiots around you, then you've got a useless team. Anyway, so that's really is a

Jimmy 31:51

Well,

James 31:52

one.

Jimmy 31:53

Who is it? Who said, if you find you're always the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

James 31:57

yeah. Very good. So my

Jimmy 31:59

Go on.

James 32:00

one then would be just realizing that people want to get on, and I'm sorry if I've told this story before, but the story of the cleaning lady. I've got taken around this big offices in the West Midland somewhere. And then it was all about process improvement and yeah, what great job we could do with process improvement. And they took us to see the cleaning lady and that. She was just on fire, right? She was, well I get to order my own mops and I can choose which de or I want and I can be boosh bash and I've got this trolley and I've designed my trolley so I can have the trolley I where I want it. And she said,'cause the thing is I just want to bloody get on. But if the cleaning lady is that fired up and wants to get on, just imagine what you could do with the rest of your staff if you could give them that opportunity so that you get people want to get on.

Jimmy 32:47

My second one is back to the difficult conversations. So when you have a difficult conversation, it's like a mushroom. If you keep it locked away in the dark, it will just grow and grow. They get harder the longer you leave them. So tackle all some of the difficult conversations early on. Go on. What's your final one then, James?

James 33:05

Your job is not to manage your people. Your job is to create an environment where everybody can do their best work. That is your job. So don't obsess about the individual, obsess about the environment you are creating.

Jimmy 33:17

And my final little bit would be really understanding the. Shadow you cast on your team. Your team are watching you, and they react to you more than they often let on So you've got this job. It's a responsibility and a privilege. So to treat it with a seriousness here it deserves.

James 33:37

and I'm looking forward to lots of comments about me never being outta my depth. diluted fool.

Jimmy 33:44

But who confessed that at the start of his career lacked empathy and at the end of his career lacked empathy

James 33:49

can't be everything. Just

Jimmy 33:50

On that note,

James 33:51

Just imagine how painful I would be if I was truly perfect.

Jimmy 33:55

instead of just believing you're perfect.

James 33:56

right.

Jimmy 33:57

Interesting. Thanks, James. Thanks everyone.

James 33:59

I speak to you later. Cheers now.

Speaker 4 34:01

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast

Speaker 5 34:03

from purpose to corporate jargon,

Speaker 4 34:06

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well,

Speaker 5 34:09

easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck.

Speaker 4 34:19

If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver,

Speaker 5 34:28

we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.