How to Deal With a Bad Boss

Bad bosses: the office equivalent of a microwave with a broken timer. It either leaves your career frozen in the middle or burns it to a crisp, and you’re never quite sure which setting it’s on today. In this episode of A Job Done Well, Jimmy Barber and James Lawther dissect the scourge of the workplace: the boss who turns a dream job into a daily grind. With a mix of war stories, dry humour, and hard-won wisdom, they explore why a bad boss can overshadow even the most rewarding roles, and—more importantly—what you can do about it.

From the hypocrites who preach morality while chasing bonuses, to the indecisive leaders who’d rather watch a business burn than make a call, Jimmy and James leave no stone unturned. They tackle the personal nature of bad boss experiences (one person’s nightmare is another’s mentor), the traps employees fall into (avoidance, bitching, disengagement), and the rare but glorious moments when understanding your boss’s pressures—divorce, imposter syndrome, or just being in over their head—can turn a toxic relationship into a tolerable one.

But let’s be clear: this isn’t a self-help seminar. Sometimes, the only solution is to wait it out, adapt, or—if all else fails—run for the exit. Because, as they remind us, no boss lasts forever. And if you’re lucky, neither will the damage they inflict.

Five key points:

• Bad bosses have a disproportionate impact on job satisfaction, often overshadowing even the most rewarding roles.
• Only about 10% of bosses are truly bad, but their influence can feel all-consuming.
• Common bad-boss traits include inconsistency, hypocrisy, indecisiveness, and lack of clarity.
• Employees often fall into traps like avoidance, reinforcing bad behaviour, or becoming cynical and disengaged.
• Practical solutions include understanding your boss’s pressures, improving communication, and knowing when to cut your losses and move on.

Transcript

Speaker 0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James 0:14

What are we talking about today?

Jimmy 0:16

Well, today, James, we are talking about one of the biggest factors of whether you enjoy your job or not. Boss.

James 0:24

All

Jimmy 0:24

Yeah. Yeah. You can have a great job and a bad boss ruins it. You can have a really tough job, and a good boss can make it really bearable. So today, James, we are gonna talk about bad bosses and what do you do when your boss is the problem that's stopping you enjoying and performing at work? And we've had a few of them, haven't we, James?

James 0:49

I've got, try not to get into Bo bashing in this episode. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna rise above it. I'll be like Michelle, I'm gonna go, I know you like a good statistic and I had to look at the statistics apparently, and I was rather surprised by this. There was A-C-I-P-D report.

Jimmy 1:05

Yeah.

James 1:06

Which found that 70% of employees and the poor managers report low job satisfaction as opposed to 88% who reported high job satisfaction into good ones. And the thing that surprised me about that, frankly, was it was not a whole lot bigger gap. The other thing is competent bosses apparently can boost happiness more than salary, according to the Harvard Business Review. And that I do believe, yeah.

Jimmy 1:30

Yeah.

James 1:31

Can't, I used to work with a guy and he said, you can't do enough for a good governor. And I thought that was a very astute point.

Jimmy 1:36

Well, it's one of the things that we've talked about in a couple of episodes recently. You do, you work for people, you don't work for organizations, you'll run through walls for a good boss. But today we're gonna focus on the shadow of that the bad boss. And actually James, interesting enough I dunno about you, but this made me reflect on the bad bosses I've experienced. And I reckon that over the space of my career, I had about 50 bosses. Right? But I reckon also that only about 10% of them were really bad.

James 2:11

Yeah, and that's interesting. I did a count up as well, and I reckon in 33 years I had, I could remember 22 bosses.

Jimmy 2:19

Yeah,

James 2:20

Yeah. And actually, you're right, 10% bads only, probably 10% good. And the rest probably float in the middle somewhere.

Jimmy 2:28

but the challenge is the disproportionate impact the bad boss has on your working life. It absolutely overshadows it, and I was surprised when I thought about the numbers. And the ratio, I'd have said it was a lot higher. Not because, numerically is a bit higher, but because of the impact that they have would've been greater in my life, I think.

James 2:52

Yeah, I always remember the bad things,

Jimmy 2:54

Exactly.

James 2:55

what? What would you say? Define a bad boss for me. What is a bad boss?

Jimmy 3:00

Well, I think there's a few things that, you often crop up when you think about this., Somebody who isn't clear, we talk a lot about. Purpose and clarity around purpose. So I think a boss who isn't clear about why you're here or what they want or the tasks or anything and are inconsistent, so, you've had that situation where, they blow hot and cold or sometimes they want lots of detail and sometimes they don't. So you never know really where you stand.

James 3:30

Yeah, and I take that and I further. I've worked with some bosses who. Say they want to do something and that thing will be, well, it sounds a bit grand, isn't it? Morally or ethically correct, but something that everybody else would want to get behind, but they're just giving it lip service when in reality all they're interesting is their bonus.

Jimmy 3:50

Yeah.

James 3:50

always found really difficult. So maybe that's your inconsistency point.

Jimmy 3:54

But I think that's an interesting point though, James. 'cause I think we can define some things, but I think some of it is very personal. So in that example you just talked about, I'd hate that because as one of the things I really hate is hypocrisy in things. And so if you're saying I'm taking the moral high ground and you're not, that's gonna be a problem for me. But that's personal to me. And actually. I bet you if we compared notes on some of the people that I think are bad bosses or you think are bad bosses, we might have some disagreement.

James 4:25

no, absolutely. Well, I can think of at least one individual I thought was a

Jimmy 4:28

Yeah.

James 4:28

boss who you didn't like at all, so

Jimmy 4:30

Yeah.

James 4:30

I absolutely agree with that.

Jimmy 4:31

One person's, one person's good bosses, another person's bad.

James 4:34

So one of the things that struck me fairly early on. Is it seniority and capability are not necessarily the same thing. So you're working for somebody and that person might be two or three levels above you, but you sit there and you look and you think, bloody hell, do you know what you are doing? So an example from in my early in my career, it was just about making, just interesting. Do you remember BSE, bovine, spongy, fa and

Jimmy 4:56

Oh yeah.

James 4:56

Well, when BSE hits, most, some people won't even remember it, but when BSE hits, I

Jimmy 5:02

We all stopped eating burgers.

James 5:03

I was working for Bird, I was working for a beef burger company at the time, people just weren't eating beef burgers, which,

Jimmy 5:09

No.

James 5:09

When you bird eye it's a big deal. And so we had to pretty much to on a dime, but we switched from making beef burger to hamburgers, right. 'cause ham's fine. But I needed an order for 10,000 tons of pork. 'cause you do, right. It's,

Jimmy 5:22

Yeah.

James 5:23

a lot of dead pigs. But the the business group chairman was incapable of making a decision. Now it's clocking on through May, getting in towards burger making season and I needed the pork, otherwise we weren't making no burgers he wouldn't make a decision about it at all. So, just incapable of deciding. I think it was probably fear. He was probably worried about his profit targets.

Jimmy 5:43

Yeah.

James 5:44

But that for me is one key thing, just listening of inconsistency.

Jimmy 5:48

A few other things I've experienced in terms of bad bosses. People are overly controlling. You can't do anything. Don't let you make any decisions, don't let you take any actions. I think people who are completely absent, they're never around, particularly when things get tough, they're not sighted with a radar. I think people who are overly political, we've talked a few times about people who are very good at managing upwards, but they don't manage downwards quite as effectively.

James 6:16

You know I said I was gonna go Judy, Michelle Obama, and go Hi.

Jimmy 6:20

You're gonna go low.

James 6:21

am gonna go there. There was one bloke I worked for, and every three months he'd have an operational review with his boss, and we'd all get dragged in to present about how good we were doing, and he'd just talk over the top of us. He would make shit up if he thought it sounded good, and you'd be really caught, because on the one hand you'd think to yourself well, if that's what you wanna say, you crack on and say it. But on the other hand, it was just creating huge holes that you knew were gonna fall in afterwards. So that was quite stressful.

Jimmy 6:47

You said quite early on you discovered that, capability and seniority didn't always correlate. It took me quite a while to realize that I went through naively thinking that, the bosses in senior roles knew best. And it was only when I got a little bit close to them that I realized that actually they often didn't, they just made up, they made up for the lack of capability with confidence at times.

James 7:10

Well, and that's why I shouldn't get political, but you can see this and what's going on in the Middle East at the moment. Yeah, most powerful white man in the world probably isn't a great boss, let's be honest about it.

Jimmy 7:20

No, no problem about it, James. He ain't a great boss and he ain't even great human being, frankly.

James 7:25

but the other thing, sorry, coming away from

Jimmy 7:27

Yeah.

James 7:28

for a second, the other thing which I think is important is values. somebody might actually be a very capable boss, but they don't share the same values as you. Then you really struggle. So for a while I worked for a marketing lady. We were building a big project. She was a senior marketing lady. But my values were all about operational effectiveness. They would be given where I came from. She couldn't give two hoots about that because it just wasn't her makeup. And it's not that she was bad to work for. It just became really difficult because you just saw the world from a totally different perspective.

Jimmy 7:59

I think another example of what I consider to be a bad boss, and this is maybe in hindsight a little bit. I've worked for a number of people who when you were working for them and they needed something from you, they were like your best friend and you were the greatest thing since slice bread. As soon as they didn't need anything from you, you were dead to them. There's a few people we know like that.

James 8:21

yeah, I think we could name names and have some congruence there, but maybe now is not the to.

Jimmy 8:26

That's some of the traits that we've seen. But as we say it, it can be a little bit personal, but I guess why do you think it's so hard when you have a bad boss?

James 8:38

I think for me, if I was to give an analogy, it's a bit, it's all about control and delivery, right? So

Jimmy 8:43

Yeah.

James 8:44

on the one hand, it's a bit like you are the captain of a sailing ship. Yeah. So you've gotta get this ship from wherever it is to India or whatever it might be. Yeah. But you don't control the wind.

Jimmy 8:55

Yeah.

James 8:55

hand, you've got the boss and they will control your priorities and they'll control your resources and they'll control your progression. But then they're still holding you accountable. They love that words. Yeah. But you've got to deliver and you've got to lead your team. You've got to make things work. And it's that discontinuity between, I suppose, accountability and control, which is the thing that really causes a problem.

Jimmy 9:18

No, I think you're right, James. I think they have. Such a control and impact on your life. What you're working on, how you're judged, how you get on, how you get promoted, what your end of year review is, on a daily basis and just on a whole life basis. But you have to do all the work often.

James 9:35

Yeah. But then as you said, over the past or 33 years, you've had how many 50 bosses.

Jimmy 9:42

Yeah.

James 9:42

think you got through a rate twice as fast as me. Actually, I was obviously more stable than you were, but am I had a 20 plus. I mean, either which way? That's what a boss every year and a half on average. But even given the churn of bosses, they do have real world consequences, right? So there is that phrase. People don't quit their jobs. They quit their bosses, but it is so true, right? So I think there's some Gallup data that supports that. But I was thinking about it, and I have moved jobs internally three times because I've had a bad boss

Jimmy 10:11

Yeah.

James 10:11

jobs externally twice because I had a bad boss. Right. So you do, it's not great when you have one and people do leave, so,

Jimmy 10:19

yeah.

James 10:19

yeah.

Jimmy 10:20

Well, I think if I looked at the 10% of times when I had a bad boss I think I moved every time after a while. Having said that, so, we talked a bit about bad bosses and what they're like and why it's difficult, but I do think that. When you're working for a bad boss, there are some of the common traps that we fall into. For example, when you've got a bad boss, I found out I did want talk to them. So you just avoid them, you avoid those difficult conversations. Back to your point about telling them they're making shit up. I mean, did you tell them you know Exactly. You avoid those difficult conversations, don't you?

James 11:02

Yeah. And is that a trap or is that just inevitable? I'm not sure. I mean, it depends whether or not the boss is vindictive. But actually I think of all the bosses that were prop, well, to be honest with you, mate, so I used to work for you and I have on occasion told you were making shit up,

Jimmy 11:17

Yeah.

James 11:18

but I knew you could take it.

Jimmy 11:19

Yeah. Yeah.

James 11:20

therefore, by definition you weren't a bad boss.

Jimmy 11:22

No, but I think that just the principle of, do you have the conversations you need to have, do you talk to your boss about why you're finding them difficult? Do you talk to them about why some of their behaves difficult?

James 11:34

brave.

Jimmy 11:35

It does, and so I, I think we often avoid those conversations. I think then that leads to. The, you can get caught into in reinforcing their behavior. So, agreeing with all of their points., Back to your mate, the orange lunatic, everyone around him is agreeing with everything he tells him all the time. I,

James 11:54

Well, and that's very interesting because it must be causing. Some of them. Extreme stress. Extreme stress, yeah. And oh, well, fascinating. There's one guy very senior in the Pentagon who's been the push in short order who clearly wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear, but when you're in a situation like that, he's trying to protect his soldiers' lives. I have no doubt. Yeah. And not doing that is just hugely stressful. Now, fortunately, I only ever worked in an insurance company, in a bank, right. So I wasn't in that position. When somebody is, we talked about it the other day, when somebody's fundamentally got a values conflict. It is really hard.

Jimmy 12:33

Yeah. I think another couple of traps that we can get caught in. One is like, it's bitching about your boss. You end up talking to some of your colleagues about.

James 12:42

I wouldn't have said that was a chap, I would've said that was a pleasure.

Jimmy 12:45

Well, yeah you would though James, but I think part of that is, it can be cathartic to understand that we're all in the same position. We all feel the same way, but sometimes it doesn't actually help move you forward. It doesn't help you progress things a lot of the time. So I think there is a risk with that at times.

James 13:05

there is also a risk that your boss could find out about it, quite frankly, and that's

Jimmy 13:08

Exactly.

James 13:10

My daughter worked for a while for one person and, she noted that everybody in the entire organization used to bitch and complain about them. It's what singled this this woman out and in a one way that's great. It's cathartic 'cause you're not the only one, but it's a bit toxic. It doesn't really take you anywhere. It's not proactive in.

Jimmy 13:32

No, and I think that can often lead to, you can become just a bit cynical and a bit disengaged. And one of the things that always worried me personally is when I found myself working for a bad boss, and I've found myself becoming very negative. I didn't like myself then, and I worried that when I went somewhere else, I'd carry on being the same. That wasn't true because once I moved, I didn't carry it on, but I always worried that I'd get myself in a downward spiral and could I get myself out of that? So I think that's easy to become,

James 14:08

And it's quite easy to become very cynical and disengaged from the situation, which again is not helpful.

Jimmy 14:14

I think one of the things, is bit of a mixed blessing is, as you said, James, we've both been through lots of numbers of bosses. You get tempted into kind of waiting it out and, 'cause they'll move eventually, won't they? And that is true, but that still can lead to a very difficult toxic time for you if you don't sort of take some action.

James 14:38

Well, and that's interesting 'cause I think that is the common strategy and understandable. But if you think if we are right, that 10% of bosses are bad, bosses are rough. Rule of thumb, that means 10% of the population is waiting out at work and that really is a dreadful thoughts.

Jimmy 14:53

Yeah.

James 14:54

Yeah.

Jimmy 14:54

And just before we get onto what you can do about it though would you have ever said that you were a bad boss?

James 15:00

Never but

Jimmy 15:02

Go polish your halo jack.

James 15:03

I'd say it or whether I knew it, and I'm sure I frustrated the hell out of people sometimes not intentionally.

Jimmy 15:09

Yeah, that's one of the interesting things is I think sometimes bad bosses aren't intentionally bad bosses.

James 15:16

Oh, a lot of them are,

Jimmy 15:17

You know what I mean?

James 15:17

most of them are intentionally bad bosses.

Jimmy 15:19

I don't think they get up in the morning. You think, today I'm gonna be a really bad boss. I think it is just whether, it's just their lack of confidence and the lack of capability. It could be a, it could be a whole raft of things that are impacting them, but you don't get up and that's what you aim. And I'm sure there are people definitely who I've worked with who would say that I was a bad boss. And that might have been,

James 15:42

Yeah.

Jimmy 15:43

how we worked together.. If I look back, I was always too focused on results and I, probably didn't focus on the people, that worked for me as well as I could have done, and that would've pissed some people off in the past, so I don't think, but I don't think it's an intentional thing, so I.

James 15:58

like to think I had the humility to be able to accept it when somebody told me I was a bad boss, that I can think of three or four people who thought I was a really bad boss. And sometimes you just clash, don't you?

Jimmy 16:07

Yeah, but I think that the danger with that is though, James is back to the point about you don't always have those conversations. That's the difficulty. People who found you as a bad boss probably weren't telling you

James 16:18

what have you done in the, that you think made things worse when.

Jimmy 16:23

I think a couple of things that I've probably done in the past., I'd be schizophrenic with it, either. I would have to, lock horns with them. And if they were talking bullshit, as you said earlier, I'd feel that I've got to put them right. I've got to make them realize how stupid they are and how destructive they are. Or I'd withdraw. And I just wouldn't want to I'd try and find ways of keeping out their way and not engaging with them and staying out the way. And I think both of those, those two extremes are reactions I would've had. I think they probably made things worse at times with certain bosses. 'cause then they felt right. If you're gonna, if you're gonna rebel against me, will see, you end up just, crashing heads too much.

James 17:03

Yeah. Have you ever heard of the Ian effect?

Jimmy 17:06

no, go on, educate me.

James 17:07

a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Jimmy 17:09

Yeah.

James 17:10

have gone from being golden balls to, Mr. Satan, within the space of about two weeks, only because my boss has changed, right?

Jimmy 17:18

Yeah,

James 17:19

my performance didn't change, my boss changed, and therefore my boss's perception of me changed. And they're entitled that

Jimmy 17:24

I,

James 17:25

But what I found is that if somebody thinks you're a poor performer. You start acting like a poor performer

Jimmy 17:32

yeah.

James 17:32

down, yet you don't engage, you leave early. You don't push on the things that you should think. And it really is, I think that's the worst thing is when you get so hung up in their, your boss and their perception of you, and it causes you to spiral down that way. And that I think is the thing that you really need

Jimmy 17:52

yeah.

James 17:53

out for.

Jimmy 17:54

So let's get on to some of the things that. Actually work, so we talked about some of our reactions and how that didn't help what Gimme an example, James, of some of the things that you think do work.

James 18:05

And I, sorry, it's a bit trite. cliche. All these things are cliches because they're another truth in them,

Jimmy 18:13

I,

James 18:14

but, walking their and wearing their shoes for a little while. Yeah. Understand what is driving them. The bloke I was telling you about, the bloke who wasn't prepared to order 5,000 pounds of pork, sorry,

Jimmy 18:23

yeah.

James 18:24

tons of pork. Yeah. He was just worried about profit.

Jimmy 18:27

Yeah.

James 18:27

He was worried he is gonna have a dirty degree, big write off in his hands. He was a bit young, inexperienced, truth be told. So what did we do? We ordered it a thousand tons. A thousand tons ago, right?

Jimmy 18:36

Yeah.

James 18:37

minimized his risk, at which point he was bang up for it. So just, understanding what precious people are under and trying to understand them helps inordinate.

Jimmy 18:47

And I remember, I was working for a person and it was their fir their first time at that level. And, they were worrying about detail and governance and how we wrote. Board papers and God knows what else. And I never really thought, well, maybe they lacked a bit of confidence and they were stepping up. And I know when I stepped up to more senior roles, you often do lack that little bit of confidence. Now you won't always say, because you lack confidence. You can't always say, look, I'm finding this really difficult. This job's tough. I'm gonna take a bit of time getting used to it. Because you don't have that confidence, so you mask it and just thinking, oh, actually what's going on for that person? Whether that's, they've just stepped up to do that job. Or often what's happening for them outside of work,

James 19:32

I worked for one woman and she was an absolute horror, as as far as I was concerned. Turns out she was going through a very messy divorce at the

Jimmy 19:40

Yeah.

James 19:41

of course I didn't know about, but is there any surprise she was a bit erratic at work? Yeah, so you're right. Understanding what's going on for them, really important.

Jimmy 19:48

I think another angle to understanding them is understanding what's important to them. So, what do what matters to them, what, some people it's, making a difference. It's, what's, yeah, it's that classic, what's in it for me really, isn't it?

James 20:03

Yeah.

Jimmy 20:03

you don't understand what matters to them, it's very difficult for. To then feel that you're helping them.

James 20:09

Well, there's something in, make life easy for them.

Jimmy 20:12

Yeah.

James 20:12

Clarity, updates, no surprises, all of that sort of stuff.

Jimmy 20:16

Do you remember one of our, one of our most favorite bosses who he used to love to be he always, when he went into big meetings, he wanted to be over prepared. His infamous back pocket. He wanted so much information and it was absolute pain in the ass. But we used to do it for him because we knew that made him more comfortable.

James 20:37

Yeah.

Jimmy 20:38

perform and do well and represent us as a team more effectively. We di we wouldn't just sit there and say, why are you asking for this? Why do you want this? Why do you want that? We used to give him loads of stuff to make him more comfortable, didn't we?

James 20:49

Yeah, and I remember that sort of the opposite of that in one session. Early my career, I was working with somebody and we had a big development review meeting. We were all these great and the good are in the meeting room, and this woman just tore a strip off me. In front of everyone. She told her took off me, but it wasn't for what, 'cause I'd done the wrong thing. It was because I hadn't told her I was going to do the wrong thing and she just felt really exposed. So, the whole thing about no surprises is really important. Yeah. If you've got a boss who's a bit edgy and doesn't like to find things out best to keep him absolutely on the front foot when things aren't going quite the way you expect 'em to go.

Jimmy 21:28

So I think there's, there's something about, understanding them as a person. There's something about making their life easier. But I also think we did an episode quite a while ago about managing upwards. But I think, just having some structure and plan to how you manage your boss. Just things like, you said they don't like surprises and it's true. But don't just bring them problems. Bring them some options. What can you do? What are some of the things that they could that could be solutions, when you, when they ask you to do something. Be clear on what their expectations are. What does good look like, what's success? Don't wait till you're halfway through and and then say, is this what you wanted? That used to infuriate me? You haven't said anything, so I thought you understood what I wanted. And then you get to the end and they bring you all this stuff and it's like, no, that's not what I wanted. So clarify those expectations and sometimes you have to write stuff down. I used to find it quite useful with one boss when we used to. Discuss things and he'd knock stuff around. You weren't sure exactly what you'd agreed. I used to write to them and just say, James, just confirm I'm gonna do X, Y, Z for you.

James 22:33

Yeah, the old CYA note, but CYI cover your ass.

Jimmy 22:38

Ah, okay.

James 22:40

Actually, when

Jimmy 22:41

Yeah

James 22:41

very powerful.

Jimmy 22:42

no, it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't a it. But yeah, it's, it is getting the right tone though. 'cause a lot of this, underlying, a lot of it comes down to communication. If your tone is, I'm covering my back, then that's gonna, that's gonna bristle. If it is, look, I really wanna do a good job for you. I'm clarifying I, this is what I think you're looking for. It's a whole different ball game.

James 23:06

that where I always went? Wrong tone. Is that the problem?

Jimmy 23:09

Yeah, if you just discovered tone, you just realize tone's not my person. Do you think it was like,

James 23:15

again. Now you tell me. The master of the dark arts, how do you push back on a boss properly?

Jimmy 23:19

I think, you have to not get caught like I did, which is get caught in locking horns. You have to. Push back in a very kind of logical, calm at the right time. So, there are times when don't push back. Just let them around. Just let them go. Then find your right time where you think they're gonna be open to it and. Present options, present logic, present some of the facts with things, not in a defensive way, but tie it back to what's in it for them. How do you wanna move forward? Things forward. You understand what matters to them. Therefore, you're pushing back, you're being logical about, you're pushback for the sake of what matters to them.

James 24:01

Yeah. And the one more thing that I would add, and I suppose this is me, hardly surprising, can at it systematically, right? Control what you can, right? You can worry about your team, you can worry about your communication, you can worry

Jimmy 24:14

Yeah.

James 24:14

standards, right? If your boss is a complete ask, there's probably not a lot you can do about it. So therefore it's almost not worth your time worrying about it. So

Jimmy 24:23

Yeah.

James 24:23

it's almost like, look at a bad boss as just another systems constraint. You can't change it. what can you do? Worry about what you can do rather than what you can't.

Jimmy 24:32

Yeah. So I think, there's some practical things you can do. But I do think we should probably spend a couple of minutes, James, talking about the elephant in the room a lot of the time when it comes to bosses, and that is, a lot of these the behavior and the reactions and the actions are driven by power and ego at times. I.

James 24:52

Yeah. Okay then so do you think, I mean, they do say, what is it? Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. But do you think power corrupts bosses then? Is that where you're going with this or not?

Jimmy 25:03

Well, I think it, it does, I think not just it corrupts, but I think when you get promoted, back to my example of somebody who is promoted to a senior role, they felt that they had to. Show that they were in charge and that they knew what they were doing. So I don't think it was coming from a point of corruption. I think sometimes it can be, I've got to step up. I've got to be the boss. I've got to be this person that has all the answers. So, yeah, I do think that it does it can change people without a doubt.

James 25:34

I think it's this whole thing about 360 feedback. In my experience, 360 feedback does not flipping exist unless you have to be the bottom of the flipping rung, right?

Jimmy 25:43

Yeah.

James 25:44

Because you get feedback from the top, but actually it's the higher people go, the less honest feedback they tend to get about their performance. And so if you're not getting the feedback, if you don't know the implications of what you are doing, then it can't help but change your behavior. Can it?

Jimmy 25:59

Yeah. Do you remember the session that a certain boss of ours had with us when he sat down and wanted us to, tell him honestly about all the things that were wrong with something and, speak openly and,

James 26:12

I don't, I must blanked it from mind. Keep going.

Jimmy 26:15

And we did. We did. And he was our boss's boss, and we had a session with him. We talked to him openly about everything and he thanked us and was very appreciative. And then afterwards went to our actual boss and said, your team are awful. They're all very negative. It's like, but that's what you just asked for. So that's, that's one of the reasons why often people in senior levels do not get. Honest feedback because of the fear of consequence.

James 26:42

What about ego then? Is there something about ego, which actually gets people promoted? By which I mean, some of the jobs I've seen people, very big jobs. You've gotta have a fair size ego to want the flipping job in the first place.

Jimmy 26:55

Well, yeah to believe that you can do that job, you've got to have an amount of ego. I mean, nobody gets to being CEO, prime Minister president or whatever without any ego. It's just a reality of it. But I think if you go further down the organization, I think that, ego often shows up in things like, not listening. Not wanting you to admit to your mistakes. The needing to be, right. I mean, one guy wanted to always be the cleverest man in the room. It didn't care. He did not care whether the meeting was absolutely shit and the outcomes were awful. If he had proven that he was a cleverest man in the room, he went outta that room happy. And that's just, that's pure Rico.

James 27:42

I think another big one actually is insecurity,

Jimmy 27:44

Yeah. Yeah.

James 27:46

who are in these positions, there is the whole imposter syndrome. Then they become insecure and then because they're insecure, they just revert to what they know. And then you just start to get a whole load of them and micromanagement over checking and all of that sort of stuff. and I don't think that helps.

Jimmy 28:05

No, and I think there are though a few practical things that you can do when dealing with power and ego. I think some good examples you have to remember that often, boss, being a boss, being a senior person is the person's identity is tied up in all of that. So challenge some of the facts and the outcomes.

James 28:28

Okay.

Jimmy 28:29

not to challenge the person's identity?

James 28:31

the individual. Yeah, I

Jimmy 28:32

No.

James 28:33

agree.

Jimmy 28:34

And one of one of the great mentors I had used to say, you've got to give people's ego the chance to retreat. So, if you are trying to prove a point, you've got to give their ego the chance to back down or change their mind. If you make it too big a jump, their ego won't let them change their mind.

James 28:51

And we all know this to be true. I'm sorry to go back to the current political situation, but if you listen to the political pundits, the term they go over and over about is where's the off ramp the whole thing being the. Politicians need an off ramp. They need to be, find

Jimmy 29:06

Yeah.

James 29:06

getting outta this where they

Jimmy 29:08

Yeah.

James 29:08

face. And actually the trick is very often to give them the off ramp

Jimmy 29:13

Yeah.

James 29:13

feel stupid.

Jimmy 29:15

Yeah. As exactly and you can let them change their mind, let their ego allow them to that. Sometimes you have to let them, them have a win. It, it's just the reality of things that sometimes, the goal isn't always to be right. It's to get the right outcome. So let them have the kind of wins at times. I think Then the other thing is yeah. Do pick your battles. I mean, back to my point about how I used to the trap I used to get caught in. I almost felt that I, every time a boss opened their mouth and said something that was bullshit, I had to call the bullshit. Whereas actually, not every heel is worth dying on.

James 29:53

Yeah, I found I did die in hills, mate. I died. Died in ditches, but I did quite a lot of ditches.

Jimmy 30:00

Exactly, but, pick your pick your battles. But I think you know it comes back again to just understand the pressure they're under. Is it, they're back to my example, the ego. That doesn't let you say, I'm struggling with this. I find this job difficult. So I think some of the things that you can do around doing power and ego, don't challenge them as a person. Challenge the outcomes. Give them the odd win and pick your battles, but also just understand them a little bit as a person. The pressure they're under.

James 30:33

Yeah, put yourself in their shoes.

Jimmy 30:35

Yeah.

James 30:36

So what do you do then when it's not fixable? And actually I don't think it's that not fixable that often. I mean, I can think in my 33 years, only think of one who was just, it was never gonna happen. A handful, which we were bad, but one who was terrible. But when you do get in that situation, what do you think?

Jimmy 30:54

Well, I think there are a few ways that you can deal with it when it isn't fixable. I mean, you can, we've talked about some of the things. You can adapt your approach and you can accept it, you can work around the issues. But ultimately for me, I worked with some people I didn't always see eye to eye with. And I would do those things, but ultimately, sometimes you do have to move rot, and we both said that there were a number of times and you can't just like jack in a job sort of thing. We don't have that luxury in life. But I knew when I worked with a bad boss, I would adapt. I would work around. But ultimately I knew that if they weren't going anywhere, I had to.

James 31:33

So, sometimes the only solution needs to leave. Yeah. that.

Jimmy 31:38

So we talked about bad bosses. We've given a bit of flavor of, how they behave, why it's difficult, some of the practical things that you can do about it. Talked about power and ego and how you can deal with that. But if you, out of all of that, James, what's the one thing that you would pick out and share with somebody who's dealing with a bad boss today?

James 31:58

No matter how bleak it feels. He's, he or she will not be there forever. So worry about what you can do and don't worry about the boss. 'cause you can't change him. So just worry about what you can't do. They'll, okay.

Jimmy 32:13

And I think the one thing I,

James 32:14

that? I've got two bits of advice in there. Cunningly

Jimmy 32:16

yeah, two for the price of one.

James 32:17

Yeah. Very good.

Jimmy 32:18

Well, the one, one thing I'd pick on is I think a lot of the issues and the solutions come down to communication. I think just really thinking very carefully about how you communicate with somebody I think can give you a lot of more options. So there you go. If anyone's dealing with a bad boss, hopefully that's been helpful 'cause invariably it will happen to you.

James 32:42

All

Jimmy 32:42

thanks James. Thanks everyone.

James 32:43

speak to you later. now.

Speaker 2 32:45

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast

Speaker 3 32:48

from purpose to corporate jargon,

Speaker 2 32:50

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well,

Speaker 3 32:54

easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck.

Speaker 2 33:03

If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver,

Speaker 3 33:12

we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.