Everything at Work Is Really About Status

Ever wondered why your team’s brilliant technical expert turns into a bumbling fool the second they’re promoted? Or why your boss would rather launch a doomed rocket than admit a mistake? Welcome to the brutal, biological truth: status is the invisible force driving every decision, conflict, and ego in your workplace.

In this eye-opening episode, Jimmy and James are joined by Ceri Newton-Sargunar—neuroscientist, chaos theorist, and self-proclaimed "ologist"—to dissect how our primal need for status (success, power, or virtue) shapes behaviour, from boardroom power plays to the quiet despair of middle managers. Ceri reveals why even flat organisations aren’t immune, how status threats trigger the same brain response as a punch to the face, and why your "virtuous" colleague might actually be the office’s biggest problem.

Key points:

• Status isn’t just about job titles—it’s a biological drive as old as the pecking order in chickens.
• The three types of status: success, power, and virtue—and why they clash spectacularly.
• Why promoted experts often fail: losing technical status can break their sense of self.
• Psychological safety is impossible without addressing status threats.
• How to spot your own status monsters (and everyone else’s).

Dry, unflinching, and packed with dark humour, this is the episode that’ll make you question every meeting, every promotion, and every time you’ve rolled your eyes at a colleague.

Transcript

Speaker 3 0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy. And welcome to A Job Done Well. The podcast that helps you improve your performance and enjoyment at work.

Jimmy 0:15

Afternoon, James. How you doing?

James 0:16

Oh, I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. I'm very excited today. got a guest.

Jimmy 0:21

are you excited?

James 0:22

well I've got a guest who I thought would do us the power of goods. So today we have got Ceri Newton-Sargunar with us. And Ceri's got, well, she introduces herself as a lot of different things. I've written a couple down. She introduced herself as a strategic behavioral advisor or an interaction specialist. And I think you and me, Jimmy, we we need a bit of interaction specialist on this.

Jimmy 0:44

We do. And when I met Ceri, she was, she got me very excited. She said that she's gonna talk to us about the thing that's right underneath your nose that you'd never really paid enough attention to, but it underpins everything from conflict to disengagement to burnout. So this is definitely an exciting episode for us.

James 1:02

Before I go on and say anything else stupid, Ceri, would you like to introduce yourself?

ceri 1:06

hello, my name's Ceri Newton- Sargunar. and I'm really happy to be here with you. It was yeah a delight to be invited. Thanks for having me along. And yeah, I'm all of these things and many others as well. I'm also a neuroscientist. And I'd like to describe myself as a ologist as well. I a bit of chaos in science thrown into everything for good measure. But yeah by background I'm a trained in law and then English language and then psychology, and now neuroscience. And I think the common thread that runs through everything that I do is a love of language, love of words, and a love of pinpointing the thing that I suppose that. That directs everything we do and why. And that sits behind all of the different things that I've done over the years. So understanding when we use particular words, the effect that they have when we use words on other people and with ourselves, how they change, how we feel, how we perceive things what we choose to do as a result. So they, they changed the outcome and that's what led me to studying all of the different things that I've ended up studying. And that's what then brought me to psychology and now neuroscience. And then this latest work that I've been doing, is endlessly fascinating to me. So yeah, I do all of my work in government and in the UK and abroad and big and small organizations.

Jimmy 2:16

Wow. James, you and I could have been, couldn't we? 'cause we created plenty of chaos in our work.

James 2:22

Is it creating it or sorting out afterwards? There's the,

Jimmy 2:25

You got me on a technic there, I think.

James 2:27

have been the work generation scheme for you, Ceri. I'm absolutely certain of that. go on then. Tell us what is the thing that we're gonna talk about that we're all blind to, which is so important.

ceri 2:38

Sure. So I'd love to talk to you today about the the fundamental nature of status as a driver of human behavior. and I think status is one of those things that we all know about. We all understand. Every single day I have conversations with people who come to me and say things like, I wish they would just stop. Playing these games everything is always politics. I wish they'd just get their egos outta the way. And the conversation that I end up having again and again is helping people to see that we can't. And then looking at the impact that, the fact that we can't, that impact that has the ways that it's driving all of us, whether we are embarrassed to admit it or whether we are open to the the sad and unfortunate fact that it is driving all of our behavior. and then what we can do as a result, what it helps us know and see, and how we can change how we're acting if we want to. and certainly how we can help the people around us if we are people who are in charge of teams or. Groups of people.

James 3:34

And it is interesting you said it. I mean, what, 'cause I was thinking, what the hell is it that she's gonna talk about? But once you say it, it's blind in the obvious and it's a bit like well I suppose it is just a biological need, isn't it? You talk about the pecking order and the flock of chickens, But exactly the same thing the animal kingdom, I suppose.

ceri 3:50

I noticed it because I was working with numerous different leaders in different kinds of organizations. So I was working at the same time in a very hierarchical government organization at the same time as working in a startup as the same time as working for a charity at the same time as also supporting a flat. organization. And what I found absolutely fascinating was that the problems that all of them were having were the same. They were all experiencing the same challenges across the board. And I ended up showing the same video. To the sort of the leaders And it was showing them this, the same video that made me think, oh, there might be something in this. And the video is it's a documentary clip from a, I can't remember the series, but it's David Attenborough. And he's essentially narrating the story of a mom bel. Which is a kind of prehistoric looking enormous bird. And it's it's narrating the story of her looking after hers. You. So in this clip, and it's only about four minutes long, you can go and Google it and it shows a mom and her two chicks in the nest. She flies off to go get water and then the two chicks left alone, one of them is bigger than the other and starts pecking and basically mulling the other the other chick. So if you're sensitive to that sort of thing. Don't go and

James 5:07

All right.

ceri 5:08

It's pretty horrific. It, the bigger chick kicks the other one outta the nest, draws blood and then leaves it to flop about on its own. Mum comes back with a bill full of water ready to give to her chicks. The narrator David says the younger chick seeks its mother's comfort, and then it the shot flips to the mum stepping over. The mold chick and David Attenborough says, but she has already made her choice. And like I say everybody is desperately trying to avoid being the second shoe Bell Chick, whether we are aware of it or not. of the behaviors that we exhibit on a day-to-day basis are us trying to be chick number one when you start to see the behavior in the boardroom, in your teams, in a meeting room in emails on tv. When you start to see things in that context, suddenly a lot of the things that we see, a lot of the things that we're trying to change or improve suddenly start to make sense, certainly in terms of the challenges and the difficulties and the failures that we are seeing. Yeah.

James 6:18

you say so. So you say you see this in a flat organization. You've also seen a very hierarchical government organization. Are some organizations better than others, or is it so inbuilt that it's neither here nor there? How you structure your organization?

ceri 6:32

So I think it's hugely inbuilt. I think unless you are aware of it. It has an impact without you knowing. What was really interesting was speaking with a different leader of a different flat flat organization was that they were describing the wonderful work that they're doing. but it wasn't until I sat down with them and had a conversation about status and he sat there, with this conversation. It got to the end of, it went. My mind is blown. I can suddenly see how all of the different problems that we're having come back to this. One thing. I thought we were doing everything right. I can't believe that this has been there all along and that I haven't been paying any attention to it. But I can see how this is causing all of the struggles essentially.

Jimmy 7:16

So to carry this podcast, we're aiming to help middle managers in organizations. That's everyone from first line managers to, up to just below the exec level.

ceri 7:27

Yeah.

Jimmy 7:27

How would you see the, kind of the impacts of status would be impacting that population of people? So why is it important to that population?

ceri 7:36

Yeah, for sure. Okay. So there's, I mean, a dozen different cases I suppose that we could go into. One that I've seen that had a huge effect was somebody who was in the team who was then promoted to be the leader of that team. I think that's a very very common move for organizations to make. And what he experienced was his. Change in status was as one of the, one of the crew, one of the gang. What he experienced was actually a feeling of huge ostracism, not from them, but. The feeling was within himself. He didn't feel like he was part of the crew, part of the gang anymore. He almost lost his sense of self. He couldn't work out who he was meant to be or how he was meant to be, how he was meant to tell people. He previously, used to go to the Bahar Pub and he was the one joining them in the complaints about the

Jimmy 8:28

Yeah.

ceri 8:29

leaders and then his. Status change to the person potentially being complained about. And certainly if you are somebody who sees yourself as or somebody who is quite personable, quite friendly easygoing to have that that status taken away from you. No longer am I a part of the group, but now I'm seen as other, or even. 'Cause there's different kinds of ways of having status. It's not just the way that other people see me, it's the way that I see myself. There's sort of two ways of balancing that need for status and it was the way that he saw himself as now being separate to and other. He struggled to know how to lead, even though they all looked to him as the leader anyway, everybody had a huge amount of respect for him, but he really struggled in that position. So that's one example. The other one of course is is somebody who is elevated for their technical prowess for being technically gifted, technically able, and then put in in charge or put in a position of leading a group of people. Again, that's another really common reason that people end up being. Leadership position and all of their status historically has come from knowing the answers to the technical questions. And now they're put in a position where their responsibility is in leading people and not having the answers, but actually in guiding the direction of the team or managing the workload of the team, prioritizing for people, but also managing. The people themselves and how to help them do whatever it is that they need to do. And there's some floundering then that takes place there. Because everything that I know and feel confident in doing is on the technical side. And now I've got to. Put on this show of knowing from the people side, and I don't necessarily know how to do that. So then you see lots of the challenges that I end up coming into to support people with with friction, tension in that space with people being pro promoted to the level of your

James 10:19

Incompetence.

Jimmy 10:20

Yeah.

ceri 10:21

Yeah we get a lot of that, and it's not that they're incompetent, it's just that they're being promoted, essentially. They're being promoted for the wrong thing, but because they're being given this status, this reward for being technically gifted, they then they feel like they can't let people down. They

Jimmy 10:35

Yeah.

ceri 10:36

See that they don't know the answers, that they don't have the answers which is why you then end up with leaders who do things like shifting the blame onto other people or denying that anything is wrong, or making the making the issue something else. No, that's not the issue. The issue isn't this thing that went wrong, it's this other completely different thing. So then we are not resolving or able to address any of the problems that are happening because that person who's being elevated. no fault of their own by a system that doesn't really understand what it's doing and why.

James 11:07

So you think of status as being, well, I was a level two manager and I'm now a level three manager, or whatever the hell they call it in your organization. And that as an increase in status. Actually for the individual that can reduce their status because they've lost their technical status or they've lost their status as a member of the team. So it really is about how you see status yourself, or is it about how status.

ceri 11:28

it's always a combination of how I see myself and how I think other people see me. And that's the constant tussle that all of us are managing. So I have to see myself. to be able to feel well in what I do and when we don't feel well about ourselves, when we don't buy into our own status, that's when you get, very angry people, very people who are picky about details, who are picking up on other people's faults and flaws. And that's the sort of a self-protective, because I don't feel well within myself, so I'm trying to almost make myself feel better by showing. Myself and the people around me, how everyone else is at fault or how everything else is the problem. So you see some of those behaviors, but then there's the risk of perception of me being harmed. And that's where you see some of the more evasive behaviors. So you'll see people, pretending that's not what's wrong, or pretending that there is nothing wrong or saying that there's nothing wrong when really there is. That's when you see people coming to go or no go meetings saying yes, everything's green lit, everything's fine. But actually, behind the surface, under the surface, everybody around them knows that everything is failing catastrophically. And that's because there's a risk to the way that people see me being harmed. I don't want people to judge me as failing or lacking. I don't want the embarrassment of people thinking less of me.

Jimmy 12:46

But in, essentially it's an instinctive thing that we feel. So it's not just my job level in an organization is, it's an instinctive feeling we have. So, if I'm a middle manager, I'm part of a. Peer group at that level. I've got a team beneath me that are working for me, and then I've got probably bosses above me, but all of those groups are going to be driven by this instinctive reaction behavior to, and their views around status, both in terms of how I look at other people and how I look at myself. So it is pretty ubiquitous in the workplace, essentially.

ceri 13:23

and how they see me as well.

Jimmy 13:25

Yeah.

ceri 13:25

wants to be judged as lacking by their peers by I don't want people who I respect to have a poor opinion of me. I mean, what's interesting is when I don't have a poor opinion of you, I don't give a stuff about how you see me, like I couldn't care less. But if I do care about your opinion then it's deeply important to me that you think well of me and the things that I do, and then it's, potentially really embarrassing to have you see any of my flaws.

James 13:50

And so there must be different types of status then.

ceri 13:53

So there's different drivers of status. So there's research showing that there's a fundamental need to to look successful. So to be seen as successful, to feel successful. So the status of success. There's also a status of I've heard it described desire that. Dominance or power. So feeling like I have control, like I'm in control. So when people have autonomy they feel like they have they have control. Whereas if I don't have control I'm not trusted to be autonomous. So that's a lowering of my status. And then the third one, and I suppose the one that is the hardest to define and also carries a large amount of risk is the status of virtue. So feeling like, to be a good person. I need to do these different things. And that can be really risky because this is where we see in the phrase the road to the road to hell is paved with good intent. This is essentially, this is virtue status at play. So I was trying to do good, but I ended up doing harm. I was only trying to. I was just those are always things where I'm trying to be a good person, but because my view of what is good and what is valuable and what is worthwhile is very likely to be completely different to yours. You are likely to have a very different idea of what is good, what is valuable what is worth doing. That's where I then end up doing harm. And what's really interesting is that, what often happens is that if you are someone who is largely driven by, for example, the status of virtue, so I try to be a good coach or I try to be a really good advisor, or I try to be a good mom or a good friend or a good a good boss, are then very likely to be completely unable. To see, to understand to get someone whose motivation is success or whose motivation is power. So if somebody and I, we use these words, and it sounds like a negative, but they don't have to be negative drivers, to have the need for control doesn't necessarily cause harmful behaviors. And the virtue doesn't necessarily cause harmful behaviors. It's just that when we have. We have fallings out that's largely where these things come from, but the need for control and for autonomy, that's the fundamental human need to know, to be able to predict the future, to be able to know what's going on. This is why I like ology, because ology shows us that we can't. But for people whose driver. Is that need for control, is that need for understanding. People who like forecasts and predictions and plans. Not estimates but predictions and quotes and guarantees about when this is gonna be done and how and when by whom for how much. Those people completely cannot understand how someone could be driven by the virtue side of things and vice versa. And the same for.

James 16:42

But it's really interesting because it's very easy to misunderstand somebody. So you do not know this Ceri, but I may or I may not own the Porsche. Right? for some people that would be an absolute one. The most important thing in there lies because it is demonstrating their status and how successful are for other people. It'd be a complete waste of money. And what is wrong with this person? But if you don't know what's driving somebody you just, well, it's very easy to do the wrong thing presumably.

ceri 17:12

Yeah absolutely. It's very easy to do the wrong thing and to step on their toes. It's very easy to to upset them, and it's very easy as well to create. say quite a lot of misalignment, and I see this a lot in teams, in leaders as well, when you've got groups of leaders or even within a team of people whose drivers are completely different, and then they're trying to understand, but I'm doing this for the good of the organization. Whereas you are just doing it because all you care about is your career. Whereas the other person is going, oh, for goodness sake, like, you're such a do gooder. Like you're such a know it all, like virtuous. Whatever insult you want to throw in. Whereas I'm just trying to feed my family and the best way that I can do that is by being successful and getting a promotion. It's not necessarily the driver that is problematic, it's our understanding of the driver and then the behaviors that we, we have as a result.

Jimmy 18:04

Think that's interesting, Ceri, because like you say, in all of the examples that we're talking about it, it's people can't understand other people's drivers as well. It's quite often you can understand people's drivers and motivations in different subjects. When it comes to status, it sounds like it's a little bit more challenging to see and empathize. I mean, when you talked about the as, as an example, the status of success, I was just reminded. Of somebody that James and I used to work with who always wanted to tell a positive story, they would never accept there was anything wrong with anything that they didn't. I always found that difficult because it's like, well, if you want to get better, you've got to admit there's a problem in the first place, otherwise you can't improve. So why would you be happy glossing over something that fundamentally isn't working well? The reason why they were doing it clearly is the the status of success and wanting to get illusion. It was a really deep drive for them. I couldn't understand it at all.

ceri 19:02

So as I said, I'm neuroscientist as well, so when they've put people in MRI scanners, but the threat of being seen as not successful,

Jimmy 19:11

Yeah.

ceri 19:11

actually registers, it lights up the same pain centers as would light up if you were being punched in the face. So

Jimmy 19:18

oh wow.

ceri 19:19

painful. To even think about the fact that something might be wrong or to think about not doing things for the good of the organization. It's it hurts us. We receive that as a pain signal in the same way as being, punched in the face, which is extraordinary to me. But you can start to see then why people would be so protective of that. Veneer, whatever that veneer might

Jimmy 19:41

Yeah.

ceri 19:41

And why they would hold onto it so dearly and why they would fight tooth and nail and fight. Anybody who seems like they might be trying to hurt that status, hurt, that success, hurt, that power hurt, that virtuousness or take away from it detracted from it by trying to do something else that is in no way gonna get us what we need to be getting.

Jimmy 20:03

So am I right in saying then that the feeling around status is intense to an individual and the ability for us to understand each other's attitudes towards status when it isn't the same as ours is difficult as well. So isn't that like a bit of a perfect storm? It feels really strong to me, and you're never gonna understand me.

ceri 20:24

I wanna say it's that you are never going to, so I think one of the biggest steps is understanding what's going on, because

Jimmy 20:31

Yeah.

ceri 20:32

start to understand what's going on, you start seeing the other kinds of status. And when you understand that other people's status drivers are as strong and important to them as yours is to you, and they feel the same way about you and yours as you do about. Them and theirs. Then you can start to see, ah, right, this is where

Jimmy 20:53

Yeah.

ceri 20:54

conflict or some of the difficulty or the lack of motivation is coming from, or this is why everybody has said that we should go in this direction when clearly the obvious thing to do is to go that way and I can't understand why they're all going in this direction. That's when you start to be able to unpick. Where some of those behaviors, some of those choices are coming from. And then you can start making choices about, you can't change other people's words or thoughts or behaviors, but you can certainly change your own. So you can start to take a more empathetic approach, a more thoughtful approach. You can ask them some questions

Jimmy 21:28

Yeah.

ceri 21:28

what might be driving them, where they're coming from, what it is they're trying to do. And what's always interesting to me is just because our motivations are different. That doesn't necessarily mean that we aren't trying to get to the same or very similar things, when I am working with groups that are in conflict, when we can find out what the thing is that we are all working towards, regardless of why, that's when we can then. We can start to make some headway. It's okay if we disagree. If we understand that we're always going to disagree and why. And if I understand that when you are saying those things, you are not a bad person. If I can change my perception of you as a bad PO person and you yours of me, that's when we can start to make some.

James 22:11

So I've got a question, which is, you talk about a couple of dysfunctional sort of behaviors. You talk about people micromanaging or you've talked about people ignoring the reality of the situation or to defend their status or their idea of self-worth, presumably is that what are the sort of things do you see

ceri 22:31

So one of the things that we initially started talking about is group think.

James 22:34

right.

ceri 22:35

so people going along with the crowd or coming to the conclusions because everybody else is, and that, there's a lot of work that people, and coaches try to do to reduce this. Lots of different tools that they try and bring in. Try and get people thinking on their own their own about the problem. But it is a challenge, when someone of higher status. what they think. It's very easy for me to go along with them because then in a way that elevates my status, even if it's not the right choice. And you start seeing this in in very small ways with very small decisions, and then you start seeing it in much bigger. Bigger issues, bigger challenges where people are going along with things that, could end up being quite catastrophic. The sort of the Challenger disaster is a great example of that, even though people were calling out the issues and the problems with the rocket the O-Rings.

James 23:25

Yeah.

ceri 23:26

If you wanna. We know about the technical detail, but that the O-rings,

James 23:29

I can bore you

ceri 23:29

Able to

James 23:30

to death about that. Don't worry.

ceri 23:30

in the different heat differences. But so even though there were people raising that as a problem,

James 23:35

Oh, please

ceri 23:36

people further up were saying no. Like, we can't say anything. We can't look bad. We've got to look good to I think it was Ronald Reagan who wanted the wanted. The rocket launched so that he could talk about it in his in his next big public address. And because of that, everyone was like, oh, okay, well we've got to go ahead with it anyway. And this is why whistleblowers are so immensely valuable. But also then put themselves at huge risk because they are not going along with the crowd. They are the people that are willing to speak up and speak out. But it also starts to explain a lot of the reactions against people who do speak up, who do speak out, they're cast as the negative Nancy, or oh that guy. But what's interesting is when I've been in those rooms, there's always a whole load of people rolling their eyes and tutting at that person calling out the problems that's what everybody else is doing. Or because that's what the senior leader in the room is doing, and this is where we start to see some real harm.

James 24:30

But then by definition, the whole idea of psychological safety is intrinsically linked to this.

ceri 24:35

Yes, absolutely. 100%. 100%. So I think lot of the conversations I have around psychological safety is helping people to understand that in order to have psychological safety in a group, it requires that individual needs to feel that they are safe from the risk of shame, embarrassment, humiliation. I can share my idea and as a result of sharing my idea, I won't be shamed for it or laughed at as a result of saying where I see the problems, I won't be put down or cast out or, outta the group and spoken over. If I disagree, I have to be able to disagree without being embarrassed and without everybody in the room piling on me for disagreeing. Because that is embarrassing to have the whole room, dis disagree back and no. So when you have psychological safety, it's it means that the people in the room are to disagree with you, but in a curious way to go, oh, that's a really interesting idea. Let's look at this bit of it, or let's pick apart this bit of it, rather than just dismissing it outright, by having that that idea. Not accepted, but by having it considered, at least it shows that even though we disagree with you, you are still included. You are still a member of the group. You are not the second shoe bill. Chick being pecked at and out.

Jimmy 25:57

I think also as we're talking about this, Carrie, back to the. Comment you made at the very outset of the discussion around this is something that's in front of your noses, but you don't really pay it much mind, because now we're talking through it, it, it does. It's a really intense thing. It's really very important to people and without thinking. You don't necessarily consider people's attitude towards state. It's not one of the first things you're thinking about is this at the root cause of stuff. So it is hugely important and really overlooked. So you started to touch on some of the things you can do about it. Can you just expand a little bit more on now I've got this realization.

ceri 26:37

Yeah.

Jimmy 26:38

okay, what, now what do I do?

ceri 26:40

The first thing is to explore your own status drivers, like what's important to me. And if you want to understand more about that, just think back to the last time you felt in any way injured. spurned or poo-pooed or sunlight, like the last time you had an emotional response to pretty much anything. Whether it was, someone cutting you up on the road or someone dismissing your idea when you suggested it. And then what was it about that hurt you? What was it about that, that, made you think the other guy is a, an arse So the first thing is understanding what it is that drives you and your behaviors, then I think being kind to yourself about having those motivations is really important. I think it's really easy. I see lots of people hearing about this and then being embarrassed about the fact that is a driver for them. And actually there's no need at all to be embarrassed about. Having different drivers. The thing to examine is whether I am using that driver to do good to the people around me, or whether unintentionally I might be doing some harm, and to establish that you can just look to their reactions and their responses. When I say things, people react in the way that I want them to, or do they react in a way that shows that they might be. In some way, am I upsetting people? And for a lot of leaders, of course, they do get people saying yes to them in the room. that might not be the indicator, but the indicator might be do they actually go and do. The thing that they say that they're going to do. If they're not going and doing the thing that they've agreed to in the room, then there's probably some sort of threat to their status in what I've asked them to do. So going and having a conversation with them about it. But what's really difficult here, of course, is that their driver might be different to yours. And

Jimmy 28:34

Yeah.

ceri 28:35

Some level of openness, some level of vulnerability some transparency from you. First, because what you've got to do, of course, is to show them that their status is not at risk by having this conversation with you, which means you as a leader have to bring yourself down to the same status level as them if you like. So you've gotta say, look, my motivation. It's a bit uncomfortable for me to admit. It's a bit embarrassing. Here's why I'm doing things for the good of my career. This is really important to me because now I appreciate that what you are doing might not be important to, it's the same thing might not be important to you. You might have different things and want you to know that's completely okay. What I want to establish here is how I can get what I want. And how you can get what you want without us hurting each other. But here's my goal. I really want to understand your goal, and I want you to know that I'm not judging you for having a different motivator. To me. I'm not judging you for wanting something different to me. In fact, by understanding what you want. you are gonna help me get more of what I want in this situation. So this is a win-win. When you can have that conversation in that way by showing the person that you're speaking to that it's a win-win that's when you can start actually getting closer towards where you wanna go. So I would say that's your first step. Look to yourself, look to your reactions.

Jimmy 29:54

Yeah.

ceri 29:55

people and their reactions, and if their immediate reactions aren't giving you the information you need, look to what they're doing as a result further down the line. And that will give you a lot of the information that you need.

James 30:05

And that is quite interesting because I, lots of people would say, well, I'm not status driven, but the reality is we're all status driven. It's biological, we can't help. But it is just the question of, well, how does that show up?

ceri 30:17

Yeah. So the

Jimmy 30:18

Yeah.

ceri 30:18

think that they're not status driven are usually either, they're driven by the status of virtue. So I'm so good that I'm not driven by, because when people think about status, they think about power. And

James 30:29

Yeah.

Jimmy 30:29

Yeah.

ceri 30:30

side of things. They largely don't think about the virtue side of things. That is very much because it's so varied. There's not one kind of virtue. There's lots of different ways that we show up as virtuous. I'm so virtuous that I'm not driven by ego. a huge virtue driver. I'm not driven by any of those things. I'm so good and so clean and so pure and so wonderful. And I'm not saying this, again, I'm not saying this to judge those people, all of us, every single human being on the planet ever is driven by all of these things. If you go and look at things that the Dalai Lama has written about, he even, he is driven by the status of virtue, really. Like, it doesn't mean that we are bad people. We can still do good things,

James 31:09

So two things, understand yourself and then go and have the conversation. Are there other things that people who are listening to this ought to be thinking about doing?

ceri 31:17

So one of the things that you can do, and it's I have to say like all of this work, it takes a lot of courage, right? Because essentially you are the person listening to this podcast. You are the person starting this conversation striking out on your. In a way. So it does take a lot of courage, I would say to start doing this work on yourself. Getting a good coach is a great place to start. If you're in a position of luxury to be able to afford a coach, then you know, certainly going and having conversations. coach to work out what's the impact that I'm having and how does that differ to my intent? But if you're not in a position to do that, and I fully appreciate that. Lots of people aren't even like keeping a log or a journal of the different ways that you are reacting of the things that you. Think that you want being being willing to take that time to to write down the things that you think are driving you, and then looking at your reactions to things and seeing if those reactions are matching those. Now, I appreciate that can take a lot of time and lots of people are quite time poor, so don't have the time or the capacity to do that. There's a lovely exercise that I like to run with a team where I ask. Them all to to draw the monster that erupts when when they don't get what they want or when things don't go the way that they want them to, or when they are when they're upset in a team setting for any reason. And I go first in order to. Bring my status to theirs to show that I'm not sitting there judging them by having these emotional reactions. And I draw two different monsters. I draw one, which is all jaggedy edges and sharp pointed teeth and scary hands. And this is me, I would say, when I'm really passionate about something and I feel that something that I've said that's really important isn't being listened to. So when I'm not being given maybe the credibility. That I think that I deserve in the moment or when someone is, what I believe to be fundamentally wrong. How dare they. So this is the monster that comes out. And then the other one is a tiny little circle with tiny little hands over its mouth and it's a sort of a shrunken a shrunken thing. And that's my other response to not being taken seriously to, to feeling like I've just made myself look stupid in front of people. That exercise takes about two minutes. It really is extremely quick and can be done as a group. By understanding that these are the ways that I react. I'm both making something clear to myself so I can start to see and notice when I'm having those reactions, that actually something is triggering me. Or something is is conflicting with my own drivers, my own sense of status, but also it can help the team around me to notice. When that's happening for me. And by teaching the team, the ways that I might be reacting and by learning about the ways that the other people in the team around me might be reacting. We can all then, when we see those responses from other people in our teams, we can choose to take a moment and to be a bit more compassionate towards them. Maybe to put a pause on the meeting and go, okay, this is a really important thing that we need to get to. And I can see that something here. Is misaligned is drawing out, that, that monster that you drew. So what do we need to do differently? What can we do differently in this moment? So by not judging that person, but for having that response by being open about the fact that we all have them, but by being willing then to support that person through that response and work out where the misalignment is. That's a really simple, really easy way. That a whole team can start to open up this conversation. I've had teams keep it stuck to their monitors so that if they're face to face, if they're in the office with each other they've got their various monsters. So that everybody can see like, these are my monsters, what are yours? And that sort of levels the playing field and makes it an easier conversation to have to go.

James 34:50

So the things you've suggested are all very positive. I could say. I'm not sure this is a good idea or not, but we'll say you play to somebody's ego, so if somebody's got status, you just play to their status and therefore you get 'em off their high horse. Is that legitimate or is that harmful, or what's your take on that?

ceri 35:07

I don't think there's necessarily any harm in soothing someone's ego if it means that they are then going to be making decisions that ultimately. benefit the teams that they are in charge of, or the customer or the organization as a whole. I get lots of people asking about upwards management. And again think it's a very careful line to tread. What you don't want to be doing is just becoming a yes person. When something is a terrible idea it's a terrible idea. Helping that leader see that, this thing that you are planning, I think is going to harm your reputation, is going to, it runs a risk of making you look bad because of this, and because of this. However, if we did it in this way, or if we did this instead, or if we brought in this person, whatever it is that you think needs to be done, I think you can get this outcome by doing it this way without harming yourself. So helping them to see what in a way that doesn't hurt their sense of success or.

James 36:05

And there's also, I mean, a time and the place, I know it sounds fairly obvious, but if you're gonna do it in front of loads and loads of people, that's probably not the best way to do it.

ceri 36:13

It very much depends on the trust that they have. So if they believe that you're calling this out with their best interests at

James 36:20

Yeah.

ceri 36:20

Look like nonviolent communication. being willing to caveat. Okay, I'm gonna, I want to, can I say something? And before I say it, I wanna be really clear. I'm not saying this because I think you're an idiot. I think actually very highly of you. I respect the idea, I respect the thing that you're trying to do, and here's the risks that I see with it. And I can see that there are other people who. Who have other ideas that I think can help you achieve the same aim, but without the risk of, of ultimately harming yourself and us as a team. So there's ways that you can frame things, even if you're calling them out in public, as long as you are really clear that when you are calling someone out on an idea that you are criticizing the idea and that you aren't in no way. Denigrating, I suppose the status of the person who had the idea, then it doesn't feel so harmful to call it out, and it really is just a case of being really clear. I'm not trying to embarrass you. Like, you are great. But I think this idea could, could actually hurt

James 37:16

Yeah.

ceri 37:16

I don't want that for you.

Jimmy 37:17

We did a, an episode a while ago on, on conflict and, one of the things that we discussed on that was, about giving people's ego the opportunity to retreat. And, you've got to let people back down and save some face when backing down if, if they are going to damage their status. By backing down as, as your example on the Challenger even if it's a matter of life and death, people will find it difficult to back down

ceri 37:44

Yeah.

Jimmy 37:44

Conscious of time. Ceri, and we could talk about this literally all day. But I where can people find out more about this?

ceri 37:52

So there's a, a whole load of research, that, that is available out there for anybody that's more academically minded, for the less academically minded. There are some, some really great articles that I'm quite happy to pose people to. Of course there's some other podcasts.

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 38:07

We're okay. We're okay posting on the podcast. There's millions out there and a lot better than this as well.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 38:12

We apparently what were we, were the 64th or something like that. Best pod business

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 38:16

I thought it was 83rd.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 38:17

Well, I dunno, but we came to the conclusion there are a lot of better places to listen than this, but there's

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 38:22

Yeah.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 38:23

dribble out there, so we're very happy to point people in that direction. If you if you leave us some links, I'll give us some links. We'll put all of that on

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 38:30

Yeah.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 38:30

podcast website and then people can help themselves. So let me try and summarize to see whether or not I was paying attention, So the first thing I think, is to be aware of the issue. So yeah, how important status is. The second thing is to be self-aware. So what is driving you? And third thing really is to just go and try and address the situation. then I think ultimately I just come down to, it's about being intentional about it and doing something. Is that fair or is something you'd like to add?

squadcaster-6f6g_2_04-27-2026_151536 38:59

I would say being intentional but also being courageous, so being willing to lower your status in order to help people have what is. Always going to be quite a difficult conversation. Anybody beginning this conversation is going to be coming into that conversation, having listened to this podcast or maybe gone, having gone and done some reading. Whereas the people that they're trying to have that conversation with are having it completely cold. So by making it easier for them, by being courageous, by being willing to lower your status in order to help them to be willing to talk about theirs.

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 39:34

One of the bits that I took away, I really like the point about the intensity and importance it was has. An individual, but the different types of status. So you talked about the status of success, the status of control and power, and the status of virtue. And how, without any real thought, you're not necessarily going to always understand other people's points of view. So back to your initial promise of this is something that's been under your nose, that you when you get into it, think, ah, this is incredibly powerful. And I know we've only scratched the surface today, but. It was a wonderful conversation.

squadcaster-6f6g_2_04-27-2026_151536 40:10

Yeah, thanks. It was.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 40:13

No, thank you very much. Very interesting.

jimmy_2_04-27-2026_151538 40:15

Yeah. Thank you very much, Gary. Thanks everyone.

james_2_04-27-2026_151535 40:17

Speak to you later.

Speaker 40:18

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast,

Speaker 2 40:21

from purpose to corporate jargon,

Speaker 40:23

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

Speaker 2 40:27

Easier said than done. So if you've got unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck,

Speaker 40:36

if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling, and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver,

Speaker 2 40:45

we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organization's, get in touch at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.