Turning a unique idea to a global brand

From a home experiment to a global brand 🐪✨

Stevi Lowmass, Founder & CEO of The Camel Soap Factory, joins Thomas Baxendale, Head of Digital Business Banking at RAKBANK, to share how a unique idea turned into a global success.

🎧 Watch now:

▶️ YouTube: https://youtu.be/3VzDdSYDA60

#RAKBANK #digitalwithahumantouch #SMEsouk #UAEbusiness #SMEs #Entrepreneurship #BusinessBanking

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome back to the SME Soup Podcast. Today I'm joined by Stevie Lomas, who's the founder and CEO of the Camel Soap Factory. Stevie left a successful corporate career to build one of the most iconic UAE homegrown brands. On today's episode, she shares her incredible story of turning a backyard hobby into a global skincare business and what it really takes to manufacture products right here in Dubai. So join me on today's episode of the SME Suit Podcast. Stevie, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Thank you, Tom. It's a pleasure to be here. I've seen your building a hundred times. I live there.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

So not a not a massive commute for you to get here today. That's good. So your your story's really interesting, right? You there's there's a pivot uh when you went from the corporate world into entrepreneurship. Why don't you take us back and start from the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Well, um, we were talking a bit earlier. I started in banking as well. So, well, even before that, I was in computer programming, but the really, really early days, um, which probably gives my age away a little bit. Okay. Um, but um I I came to the Middle East 23 years ago selling a software product for banks, and it was the original software for driving ATMs, point of sale, um, switching payments transactions. There were no digital banks, there were no there were there was no payments with mobile in those. It must have been such a different environment today. It was. And um, so yes, um I I have seriously pivoted to probably the complete opposite in terms of what I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

And when was that pivot? What what was the what was the point in time where you thought, I'm gonna stop doing this and I'm gonna go try something. Was there a spark that changed?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, no, there definitely was. Um, well, the first thing was I felt pregnant when I was 48. And it was my first child, and I just could not see myself going back to work. I'd I'd wanted her so badly, and the thought of going back to traveling every week and sitting in an office and sitting in an office and visiting banks, sorry to say just didn't feel like they were different then, they're better. We're very friendly. Um yeah, so I I thought I need to do something different. And I I didn't really I tried a few things actually. I didn't I didn't just go into soaps immediately. Um I looked at shoes at one point. My sister and I, she's in South Africa, and I was here, and we looked at importing shoes and we discovered you really need to know a lot about the shoe business to be successful. I don't know anything about shoes. And I curated three art exhibitions here because my one sister's an artist, and um I persuaded her and one of her really well-known artist friends to come and paint um Dubai. And um, so and we had some quite successful uh art exhibitions. Okay, but again, I looked at and thought I couldn't see a way it could scale, and I couldn't see a way that it would support me as a business.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

And but it was your passion there, or it was just something you were trying to fill a void with.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I love art. I do, I really probably more than soap to be honest. But I I'm I was also quite realistic about what was going to be necessary to turn it into a business. And the art world is equal is is equally hard. And then um my husband and I were on holiday in Australia. We were down Western Australia and we were driving around these beautiful vineyards, and we came across a place called the olive oil soap factory. Okay, right in the middle of the vineyards, actually, and it was this beautiful building, and you walked in on one side of the building, you could actually look down onto their factory floor and watch them making, and they were selling local products, local produce, and and I it just it just it hit me at that moment. I just thought, oh, we could do something like this in Dubai. This is what Dubai needs.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

I love um we've spoken to so many people in the podcast that like this lightning strike hits it's from something completely erroneous and uh completely unexpected, and then exactly, and I just thought soap, and and then of course I knew a lot about soaps from the region, from the Levant, from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I mean, they make beautiful soaps up there, and they make their soaps with something called laurel oil, rah in um Arabic. And um, and I just thought, well, I wonder if I could use camel milk, and of course bridge that gap for me. Well, I just I couldn't get hold of the laurel oil, it's really hard to buy. And I thought, well, what if I use camel? But you must remember I used natural soaps. So I knew about goat milk and donkey milk. So I knew milks worked well in soaps. Um, of course, I knew nothing about soaps. So I I literally Googled best soap maker in the world, and this lady's name popped up. Her name was Melinda Coss. Okay, and um she's she's actually a legend, this woman. She has probably started 60 businesses, written books about all of them. Oh wow, but she was actually an amazing teacher as well, and she taught me how to make soaps.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

And then you just re you just emailed her or Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Wow. And she well, she was running a course in London in Walthamstow of all places.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

So in a little church hall, and there were me and a bunch of other people. Um, and from she ran the next day after the soap making course, though, she ran a business course. And I asked her at that point, and I said, you know, Melinda, if I start something in Dubai, will you mentor me? And she said, yes, for£500 a month.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

So that's an interesting step, right? Because we I've spoken to people who are are looking to start businesses and they're the they're trying to navigate the world, but they seem resistant to ask a very simple, straightforward, free question, which is will you mentor me?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Will you mentor me? Yeah. Um, and I think the other important thing though is that I paid for it.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I do get a lot of people coming to me and saying, Will you manage for me? And they wanted for free. And I think the thing about paying Melinda that really changed it was£500 was a lot of money to me then. Yeah. Um, and it focused me. And it meant that when I had a call, my monthly call with her, I made sure I'd done what I said out. She was almost like it, she became an accountability partner. And it's what I advise everybody is get yourself a mentor, but be prepared to pay for it.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Well, I I think it's a great thing, right? I don't think people should shy away from it. My wife uh took up a mentor for our business in the UK, where we're, you know, buying and selling and renting properties. And she she found a mentor who's doing it, who's very successful in it, paid course, did it for you know a month to three months. And then after that, it's it's blossomed.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And it it was the same thing. It was accountability. You know, I'm on a call, so I need to make sure that I've done my numbers and all that kind of stuff. Yes. And you know, having that accountability was really important for the growth of the business, which is great. I th I don't think people should shy away from that.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah, no, I I I agree. And Melinda, I mean, it was she did everything, she helped me with everything. She, you know, she said, Well, you know, how are you going to lay your factory floor out? Did she help me with factory floor laying?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Maybe things you hadn't thought about. Things, yeah. I wouldn't think about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I would say one of the things she sent to me, um said to me right in the early days, and this is when I still had a factory in Alcose, and um, we were designing it, and uh she said, Have you got a a a room for your curing where you're where you cure your soaps? And I said, I do. And she said, Can you leave a gap between the ceiling and the top of this room? And I said, Well, I can't, because I said civil defense here won't let me. Right. And I said, But what do I need that for? And she said, Because packaging is going to be your biggest problem. And um it was actually really only recently when I was walking around our factory, which is there. Oh, yeah. In the LIUs here. Yeah, you can actually see us from here. Cool. Yeah. Oh, very cool. You can actually see us from here.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

We should we should do a walk around. That'd be really good.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Um, so and I I we had to build in a mezzanine floor into our factory, and it's all for packaging. Um, because you you think that it's the making, but actually it's everything else. Yeah, no, but because she'd run businesses. Did she run a soap business? Yeah, she she ran the biggest handmade soap business in the UK. Ah, okay, yeah. Yeah, so she really knew her stuff. So she sold to the likes of Tesco's, Waitros, Sainsbury's, um, Walmart when they came in. Yeah. So I mean her business was huge.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

So she had all of that knowledge to impart on new. Exactly. Yes, which was what happened next then?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

So I did the course and I came back and I started playing around with soaps in my kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Um, and eventually I persuaded my husband to give me a tiny patch in his shed. And um we This is in the UAE. In the UAE, yes. Shed. Shed's a very British thing. It is, it is. So we're cold, all of the cold things going there. We bought our house in the lakes in the early days. Okay. And um we we had like an area to the side of the house that we were able to convert to a shed.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Cool, okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Which is really cool. So so he he reluctantly. Yes, that's that's his area. Reluctantly gave me a tiny bit of space. And I just started playing around. And I this would have been 14, 15 years ago, and um I went to a couple of school fairs, and I always remember um a friend of mine invited me to the DIA and Dubai International School, um, yeah, on Camila. And um she said, Come to our Christmas fair. And I took all my little products that weren't quite as smart as those, but they were fine. I had little handmade labels and I sold everything. And I had to phone the school that I was going to the next weekend and say, Listen, I I can't come. I actually haven't got any stock.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

And um good problem to have. It was, yeah. Listen, it was still small and homemade. And then the next year, um, Dubai started their first Christmas market, and I thought, let me see these soaps. And I bought some slightly bigger molds, and I taught my daughter's nanny how to make soaps.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Um, and she and I managed to make quite reasonable quantities. So we were able to take um probably um a few thousand soaps to this market, and we sold 75,000 Durham's worth in one weekend. Wow. And I came home after that and said to my husband, there's a business here, Brian. There's a business there. Wow, yeah, and that's literally how it started. And um, but then of course, that's that's when the reality starts setting in because um when you're making it home, and I was really fortunate um in that I was one of the first and probably only expat women to get a license to manufacture at home. It was just I didn't even think that was possible. Yeah, really? It's not anymore. Oh and it wasn't then. Okay, but sometimes sometimes things happen for the right reason. Wow, that's amazing. And then um so and that allowed me to get the products registered, which allowed me then to start approaching retailers. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

I mean there's a great there's a great story that uh a lot of businesses that we speak to and and support along that way, they struggle with this concept of the minimum viable product. So they think that they have to build the perfect version of the page.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh, no, and exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

And they spend all their time and effort drilling, drilling, drilling, drilling, drilling, and spending a lot of money as well. And I think there's there's a very powerful message in building a low fidelity version of whatever you're you're putting into the market and friends and family in it, your local community trying to sell, trying to see whether there's a demand for it.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, I and I I think that for me, that was the most important thing is that you know, that first Christmas market, I I was like, okay, there's clearly something. And when we tried it the next year, I reali and we sold so much, and that's when I thought there is there is a gap in the market here. And part of the reason I'd started it as well is that when I arrived here 23 years ago now, um, there was really very little to buy that was made locally. You know, you could buy a camel made in China, a Pashmina made in India, dates from Saudi often.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Very much important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

And but there was I didn't feel that there was much that was made locally that kind of represented what what what Dubai and what the UAE was. Yeah. So partly that I think that's that's the gap that we filled, um, kind of inadvertently in a way. Um, but we discovered that people really wanted to take back. And I think the first phone call I got from a customer who'd bought our product at a market, and he was from Finland, I think, and he sent me an email and he said, I am using your soap in my shower, and I am smelling the desert. And it was so and I actually moved me to tears because I was so I just thought that's that's what I want people to buy it and take home a little bit of what I love so much. Here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

That's that's a beautiful story. Do you do you remember your first sale? Was that your that's first time a customer contacted you? But do you remember your first sale?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

My my my our first big sale, yes, was actually to the customer who's now my biggest customer, full stop, it was a retailer. And um, I went in to to see them. Um, I mean, people will know them, they're aljabba gallery, and uh still a family-run business run by the al-Jabbas, run by the brothers and the sister. And um, I went to see the one brother and he said to me, Oh, no, no, no. He calls me Mrs. Camel, Mrs. Camel, we don't we we don't sell soap. And I said, No, no, I said, This is not soap. This is not soap, this is a gift. I said, This is a gift from Dubai, and he said, talk to my sister. And I spoke to his sister, and we were in her office, and she looked at it and she goes, I I understand. She says, I think you're right. She said, Let's try this in Dubai Mall. Wow. And um what a gamble. I know, and the rest is yeah, I mean, how lucky were we? And um I think that first month, I I remember it, I I think it was about 20,000 dams, and I was like, oh, this is and it went straight to Dubai Mall.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So it was, and they they were definitely our first big retail sale, yes. Um, and remain to this day one of our most important customers.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

It's amazing. So so you've made this pivot, you've then tested your market locally, and then you've you've you've got your first set of customers. But talk us through the growth stage then. Yeah, hugely successful company now. How did how did you get from the first set of customers?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

The first set of well, we I mean, we the the first we had a lot of challenges in terms of licensing and and of course um the UAE got really strict about how how products were made here, the manufacturing standards. Um so initially it there were some quite big challenges. Um how did you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

How do you if I was to try and do it? I'd know nothing about what rules I needed to even understand in order to start making.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

You know, sometimes I think it's really good to be totally ignorant.

unknown 16:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Just do if I'd known half of them, I'd probably go, no, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, I think if I saw the list of regulations, I'd go, oh, it's not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yes. And and it's and it is what I say to people now is you you you do need to really think about the regulations. But I I think because I started when I did, and we kind of grew as Dubai grew. So we were kind of lucky that I I had to navigate each thing one at a time.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So I I think the first big challenge we had is I went back to re-register my products with Dubai Municipality, and they said, please send us your GMP certificate.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

And I went, Love an acronym.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

What's what's what's a GMP certificate? And they said, This is what a factory gets. It's an ISO standard, and it's good manufacturing practice, is what it stands for. I had no idea. And I said, Well, how do I how do I get one of these? And they said, Well, you've got to go to SGS or one of the big companies, um and they used to validate it. And I went to them and I they were charging a huge amount of money, and um I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, and you know, again, sometimes just like sometimes being nice to people, um all of the time just makes an amazing difference. And one of the ladies at this rather big company who shall remain nameless, I think took pity on me when she said, if I give you an example of a GMP manual and the standard, she says it'll show you what you need to do. So I looked at it and I thought, you know what, we can write this. Um and and we did, and we managed to get that GMP certificate within two months, which is pretty amazing when I look back on it. Yeah, I mean, we had to document every process. And when I mean I mean every process, like how we sold a product, how we handle customer complaints, how we make the product, how we package the product. Um and I think one of the things that also came out of that is that I learned that sometimes we think you have to go out to a professional or somebody to to do things. And uh I had to write a technical document for Dubai Municipality. Um, it was part of their um their requirements. And again, you know, I was told there are consultants and we just simply could not afford the consultancy. And I started writing this document, and it's kind of then I realized, man, we're quite good. You know, we we have no waste, we're environmentally friendly, we hardly use any electricity. We're actually really clean I think it's then these sort of things. You start to have confidence and you start to have confidence in what you do. And I think if somebody else had done that, I wouldn't have known that about the business.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah, I think a lot of people assess themselves against people in their own industry, right? Very rarely are you doing something completely unique, right? There's usually market incumbents, there's other companies, and I I think a lot of people spend a lot of time looking at everyone else's company and going, Oh, well, I I'm not to that standard or I can't do that. And then, you know, when you scratch the surface and you put your uniqueness into it, it flourishes.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yes. So and I and I also think that maybe nowadays, particularly nowadays, there there is you need to go to an expert, you need to to go to the person who knows. I mean, Chat GPT certainly has solved a lot of those problems.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But when it's not hallucinating.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

When it's not hallucinating, yes. Um but actually getting down and and just getting the courage to do it all yourself teaches you that actually you don't need you don't need other people. You can rely on on yourself to do some of these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And uh so you've you've got it to that point. What you did you have any challenges in terms of getting access to financing? Because usually at that stage, businesses need additional funding or financing to help them lending from banks or lending from VCs or or local investors.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah, um, and this is honestly, and this is feedback to banks. It's really hard getting loans from banks.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

We apologize. We are making it easier.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Listen, I did actually get a loan from Rack Bank in the early days, but I think I didn't understand the product I was sold. And certainly the person who sold me the product, I don't think, quite understood it. And then in the end, I ended up swapping it out for a beehive loan, which was um the crowdfunding, which turned out to be just better for us. Um, but that was the really early days. Yeah. So, yes, so we we struggled with funding. I was very lucky, I got friends and family funding right in the early days that allowed us to move into the factory.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, I think it's it's something obviously uh we're very, very focused on. Obviously, we've we've come from a heritage of you know helping small businesses, that's kind of what our bread and butter was, and now we're growing into a bigger bank. Very much focused on lending. We are the predominant lender to businesses in the UA. So if you look at the the other market incumbents, you know, we lend to a scale much higher than the rest. It's very much something that we're focused on, and we're we're doing some very, very interesting things in the near future, hopefully, that can help businesses too. But I imagine back then there wasn't a lot of options, right? No, particularly for lending to small businesses. A very risky as a very risky.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Difficult to even open a bank account. And and I think this is probably a coincidence, but we've been a Rack Bank customer since day one because I think Rack Bank were almost the only bank willing to open a bank account for a very new company in those days.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah, we believed in small businesses since the dawn of time.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And um and and and lend lending has always been and and we can talk about it. I mean, I I think there are all sorts of structural issues with how m how money flows. And I get why people want big returns.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And um, you know, companies like ours, we will offer steady returns, but we're not gonna 10x, 100x anybody's investment.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

From yeah, from an equity perspective. That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

So I mean our next big sort of area of growth is we were um selected to become a um a vendor for Expo 2020. So we supplied all the camel milk products for Expo 2020, um, including what was their best seller, which is this is a variant of it that we brought back after so it's a lip balm. Oh wow. Our original limp balm was actually made for Expo 2020.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

And um This was exclusively made for 2020.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

2020. And then we obviously at the end of 2020, we we pulled the product back, and um and we had so much demand for that product that we've actually brought it back. Really? Expo 2020 meant we needed to retool. Um, we we we we thought we'd do some slightly different products for them. Um and we'd been doing quite well up to to that point.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

And how did the expo thing come about?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

You know, I I think that they had regular meetings, expo, and they put out to the business community, you know, we're doing meetings for anybody who wants to supply product in this sector. Oh, great. Yeah, yeah. No, they were very, very professional.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, I I love this region. The the these things are happening all of the time in different sectors. Yeah. And and you just don't see it in many of these.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah, I mean, there I'm well, I you know, I've never started a business in another country, so I don't know. But I know with Expo, um, the the the head of purchasing was an Australian lady called Anita, and I I went into this meeting and I sort of went up to her to introduce myself. I said, hello, I said, My name is Stevie. I said, I'm from a company called the Camel's head factory. She goes, Oh, she says, We've been looking all over for you. I said, And she said, We'd love your products. And that was just so it was lovely, yeah. I mean, just yeah, it is an unusual environment, Dubai and the UAE.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

It's so expansive and so big, but then also at the same time, it's so small. So small.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah, it's it's a very connected community, yeah. And um, so I mean, I think everybody had an opportunity to participate. And we became a licensee, and that's when we moved to DSO.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

So we needed much bigger premises. Um, so we committed to the premises in one of the LIUs um out there and um and moved 2019 and sort of towards the end of 2019. Okay. Just before COVID.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Okay. Let's talk about that. The thing that stopped the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, and us. Yeah, no, it was dreadful. Um, so our our business had been built on tourism and visitors to the region. Uh, although we've got a really good base of customers here, it's a tiny market.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

And I presume at that time you were selling to retailers who were then selling on your product, right? That's right. Were you online at that point or no?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Um, yeah, we were online. But online, it's it's always going to be for that sort of product, not massive. Um, if you're just selling, when you think about it of the 10 million people here, there's probably only a million who'd buy a product like that, of whom maybe half. It's it's a small market.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

So we were always aiming at the 20 million tourists that Dubai Tourism was aiming at. We were always, we'd always done our numbers on the tourism numbers. So when COVID hit, January 2020 was our best month ever, and February was our worst. It was, it was, it went down 95% overnight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

How did you manage that? Because you you have existing demands, you have people to pay for, the families, the payroll. Talk us through a bit about how how you that was challenging. We analysed it and then reacted to it.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, um, that was really challenging. Um we knew probably before the rest of Divine knew because we knew all so a lot of our customers then were Chinese, and those flights were stopped in early January. And so we started to see and feel the impact really early. So by February, we knew we were hitting a a massive problem. It was so I laid off people quite quickly, and then I gave the rest of my staff an option, and I said, right, you guys decide. We either scale back staff or I cut salaries. And they voted to cut salaries unanimously.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

It's amazing that you gave an option, no? A lot of businesses, I think, just sort of cut ties and slowed down.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

You think that you'll be surprised how many didn't. Um certainly amongst our the people we deal with and the and the companies we deal with, many of them kept staff on, sent them home on sabbatical, or rearranged so that they could keep their staff, got rid of all their contract staff. It wasn't as uncommon as you think, actually. That's very good.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, like ultimately all the businesses were not right, and you can't get rid of your main resources.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

And our people are so critical to what we do. I mean, our production staff are so skilled, to lose them would be a catastrophe. Um, so yes, we can train them up again. So yeah, so that so the first step that was really the headcount. Um and then it was, I mean, you just got you've got to kind of find ways to to exist. Um and we tried a few things that really did not work very well. We tried a few things that worked, that helped us a little bit. Um online was never big for us, even though we pushed it quite heavily. Um there were just simply there was just the market here is just simply too small.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

And and it was funny because my mentor, Melinda, said to me, Oh my gosh, you must be selling thousands of soaps. And I said, Melinda, everybody's buying dental.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yes. I said Was that not a thought to to pivot perhaps to a more we did.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

So we we antiseptic. Yeah, that's all so we did actually, and we started bringing anti um antiseptic made with natural um um thymol, actually.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

It's quite a it's quite aggressive, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

It can be quite aggressive, yeah. So we used a a natural ingredient called thymol. We brought that out. We brought out um liquid uh hand sanitizers. But again, you when you're up against the really big companies, it's difficult to sanitizer. And I think we we learned I I would probably handle it a little differently now.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

What would you have done in hindsight?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Well, in hindsight, one is you've got to make sure you've got a cash reserve. And I think as a company, I learned um we had luckily we'd come out of 2018-19, which had been pretty profitable for us. Um so we had reasonable cash reserves, but actually you really need to plan, plan to have cash, cash reserves.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

That's an interesting let's go down that route for a for a little bit because I think it's a lot of businesses think it's about growth at all costs, particularly when you're a small business.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Oh, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

And I I know that COVID was hopefully a once and a forever thing that happens to us all. But you have to, you know, cater for the rainy day, the the thing that you you can't see coming around the corner. What what guidance can you give to businesses on what perhaps what percentages to put away into a war chest, or how how have you factored in your what you say is your cash response?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

You need to make sure that you've got a good three to six months of running running costs. And you know, you just just you know have a look at your P and how you've got your operating costs um and your cost of goods. Um, add those together, multiply that by three to six. And you know what banks can help this. So one of the the things I really wanted to do is just to was almost to create a savings account for a business. Yes. I would love that. Okay. Honestly, you know, banks are uh you think of them as little people, you know, businesses as little people as well, you know, is that a a business needs to have an account that that you kind of put things away a little bit, especially a small business.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

And there's really innovative things that are that are coming on, you know, it's not just savings for one particular purpose, like a cash reserve or you know, investment treasury ability to segregate those savings into different expense pots. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

So you can put it aside for taxes, put it aside for VAT, put it aside so that you can see, okay, here's my here's my here's my gratuity pot.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Um that that would really make a difference. And I think what I have learned since COVID is cash is king. And when I look at my budgeting of the last year or so, um, and certainly even going forward into 2026, we are far less focused on turnover and growth and much more focused on return now. Oh, great. And and and and making sure we return profit.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Um and uh how involved are you in all of those accounting and bookkeeping, you know, the financials of the business on a day-to-day basis as a CEO? What does your day look like?

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Um, it's never the same.

unknown 32:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

I guess that's good.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

And I'm a bit of a nerd. I really love the numbers. Oh, yeah? I should have been an accountant, I think. Um, so our books are really good and have been good almost since the beginning. Because again, that's probably one of the bits of advice I give everybody is don't run it out of your personal account. Start this properly. And that's why I got a business bank account so early. And we we kept really good books from probably 2016.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Critically important. Yeah. So I mean, there there is a concept of you're only as good as the books. So if if there's no proof of the cash flow, if the transactions, turnover, all these things coming in and out, invoices, service orders, all that kind of stuff, it's very difficult for banks to even engage, right? So we always advise, you know, if you have really good due diligence and accounting and bookkeeping, it's a lot easier for it to get there as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

So we've been audited since we were tiny. I've kept audited accounts since probably two years in.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Um, and just and one of the other lessons I learned, and this was in uh I worked um for a family friend helping him out in his business in 2008 in the global financial crisis. Okay. And his company went under. They were a 200 million Durham um company, huge. That was their turnover. I mean, they were an absolutely amazing company. And what happened was he took his eye off the ball and he did not know his numbers. And I think when you're in a really big company and you've got a CFO and you've got the people to do stuff for you, yeah. Um, and you know you can trust them. But I in a small business, I I cannot stress how important it is for people to understand their cash flow, to know what their bat, you know, balance sheet is and means and looks like and how their PL works. Um, and I I mean I happen to quite like the numbers part of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

So do you like dip in just before I do, I'm very annoying.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

My accountants find me very annoying. What is this number? Why is this? Yes, why is this there? Why is this there? But I do as a result of that really understand the fabric of of the business. And I think it is important, you know, as a as an owner, as a CEO of any small business. I mean, one day I do hope to get to the point where I don't need to to to do all of that. But you know, I think up to about the$10 million mark, you really need to know what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

And and through doing that sort of forensic analysis of the books, I presume there's been multiple points where you've found areas that your team need to look at and to focus on, or perhaps to make more efficient or cheaper. Are there any examples you can give of how the financials have led you to make better business decisions?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

And well, in the last two years, we've so we got two very big investors into the company um in 2021, and that's really what helped us weather the storm, to be quite honest. Um one of them are Araseya, who are the investment arm for this slot over here, and they're fabulous. They're a really great shareholder, and the other is a shareholder in Abu Dhabi.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Um, the sheikh likes camels. And uh, and one of the things they they've been immensely supportive, but have said we don't pour money into things, but we give you advice and guidance. Yeah, of course. Um and I think one of the best things that we've done, and I wish I'd started this eight years ago, is we we account for cash now on an almost weekly, daily basis. We're watching how cash moves in and out the company. What it does and has given us is an it's an incredible tool because one, it stops discretionary expenditure. Um because I think when there's like budget, sometimes people just want to spend up to to budget.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

And then you ask for 10% more the next year, and then keeps going up.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

And one of the most powerful things we've done in the last two years is is really, really focus on cash and movement of cash. And it's incredibly satisfying because you just watch your cash balances move positively. Um, but it also teaches you a lot about the psychology of how people spend.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

And I've always thought that if I could go against that urge of saying, well, well, we're massively profitable now. We need to like spend a lot of cash doing something.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

We need to spend the money doing something. And just making everybody I I kind of feel if I could get each employee thinking of that money as their money.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Oh, that's great advice.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

It's um it it would really change how they spend. And to a certain extent, doing this with the cash has done that. And I've gone, you know, do you really want to spend that? Is it going to give you the return you want?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Okay. Um everything comes with a business case almost.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, everybody has to, and even s as a small business, it's made it's been an amazing um difference to to our business.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Amazing. So you're in Expo, you've just uh you've just you know supported that amazing initiative. What happened in the years subsequent to that?

SPEAKER_01 37:36

So yeah, 2020 was dire. 2021 um we were very lucky to get parachuted um some help um in the in the form of two investors who came into to into the company.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Well, they obviously saw value in I would hope I partly. I mean, I'm you know, they didn't do it for no reason, I presume.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, I always I'm always interested in, you know, lots of people have told me horror stories. They've been amazing, amazing investors, you know. Um it's been a pleasure, it's been such a pleasure working with them. Um but and what they allowed us to do is expand our product range. So we went beyond, we've we we moved beyond soaps. So we started developing a range of creams, we started um developing a range of solid hair care products, we um develop we redeveloped the the um lip balms, which have become an amazing bestseller at Dubai duty-free. Um who knew really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's it's it's been really lovely to see the growth of that of that business. Um, we're just now extending because we have a bit of a brand name, we're we're now starting to see if we can work with hotels to do amenity products for, especially for the five-star hotels who want to. They want local, they want sustainable, they want environmentally friendly. Um and we're starting to really make headroads into into there and and are really hoping to win our first sort of amenities, big amenities project this year. So it's been really since 2021, we've we've broadened our scope in terms of what we're we're looking at.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

And uh how how do you track so now you've got multiple product lines, and I think this is also where, particularly in the growth stage, businesses struggle, so that they expand very quickly and they've got multiple products. How how do you track the success of each one of those products? How do you ingest my question is more of a data question? Yeah, good software. There's products, but not here.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Okay, no, no, I'm a data nerd. Data. You need data. So we invested in 2019, I believe, or 2020, maybe it was after COVID. We invested really heavily in software, um, kind of like a baby SAP, you know, ERP system.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Um, I think they're Australian or New Zealand-based companies. So it happened to suit us. We looked around for a company that would help us not just manage our inventory and manage our production capabilities. Oh, okay, but would manage, we could manage margins, we could manage, you know, what was selling, what was not selling, that gave us the the the need. And we have a wealth of data. So we know exactly what's selling where, we know the margins, we're knowing the margins and what sells there, the margins and what sells there. Um, you can't you can't move without, especially in a manufacturing company. You really need to understand what works, what doesn't, and you've got to be quite ruthless at pulling and saying, right, this needs to come off, and we'll put from product perspective or product perspective. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

So there are there are products that have been put on the clipping.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

That we've taken off, um, products that we've we've changed packaging, or we've had a look at it and looked at the margins and gone, right? We need to improve these margins. And you know, sometimes it's a small packaging change. Just changing the way a box closes means they can package double the amount that reduces the cost of the product, which increases the margin.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Has has there been a product that you've really thought is gonna resonate or or take off?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

And then it's just not yes, sadly.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Kind of our equivalent is like feature development where I I I go on a run and say this is gonna work and then we put it out there and we have to we have to ship it.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

I know it's the stuff that you think is, yeah. I mean, I absolutely love our face cream. Um but I'll tell you a funny story. So we developed this and it's beautiful, it's an amazing, and everybody who buys it and uses it loves it.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

And um, I was at Beauty World about three years ago, and a friend of mine said, Um, would you like to meet um the head of marketing for one of the really big French organic houses? He said, She's she went to university with me and she'd love to meet you. Okay. Anyway, I went to meet her and she was this charming French woman. And we were talking, and I and she kind of asked me the same question, and I said, I said, I'm so frustrated. I said, We've developed this amazing face cream made with camel milk. It's beautiful, it's natural. Um, I said, we're striking, and she looked at me and she says, You don't start with the face, you start with the feet. So her point was you don't you you start with the hands and feet because human beings don't like to go change what's on their face, but they will change what's on their feet and hands first.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Wow, I wouldn't even think of that as an approach to that problem.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

It's guided us ever since that principle.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I mean, I am a guy, so I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

No, yeah, but you know, it's but but she was absolutely right. You know, she said women will change their face cream last. She said, if you're trying to get into um into a woman's bathroom or or a man, in fact, the product sells really well to men as well. She said, you need to think about what you start with. And she said, starting with the face was very brave and very stupid. Um and it's doing better and we're gaining traction slowly. Um followed the advice and the yeah, so we we've brought out hand and feet and we're developing more uh her advice was good. Um and and when you think about just how people think, we should have thought of that ourselves, yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Amazing. So you you're dynamically creating new products and changing, like trying to figure out which areas they go into and what's successful and what's not. I want to change gears a little bit. What's you you've got all this wealth of knowledge and what's happened. What do you think is going to happen in the future? What is the future for the company and then your industry at large?

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah. I mean the future of this company, I mean, I think what I would really love, I've always I've always felt that this was a company that I I started to reflect the UAE and to reflect the region. Yeah. And I guess I would really love it to remain that way.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Um think about internationally exporting.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

We do. Um we exported a huge amount to China at one point before COVID. Um, but the Chinese markets changed dramatically. Um we we we export on a smallish scale to Kuwait, Saudi, um, Oman, um, Bahrain. Um, so there is a market there that we we we're we're looking to expand in. We think that there's probably a really good market in particular the countries that require halal products. Our products are all halal certified.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Yeah. So we we think we could do really well in places like Indonesia and Malaysia, but at the moment we're quite resource-bound. So we're really focusing on the markets we know we can do well in. Um, and then we've learned our lessons, we've burned our fingers by by trying to leap into markets. Um, so yes, there is an export market, but possibly not for the product as it stands. I mean, you yeah, this it's beautiful and it's lovely, but it's it is geared at a tourist picking this up and going, yes. So that's kind of one of our Yeah, I've seen this. Yeah, original products, yeah. So it's it's very much geared at somebody wanting to pick up a product locally to take home that that's special.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

And I think I think there's a power in that, right? Yes. In knowing your market, knowing what works. And we we've seen businesses that have tried to like over expand, and then that's had a detrimental impact on the the overall business. Yeah. Yeah. Really focusing on your core markets.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah, well, we we tried in 2022 to really move heavily into the cross-border e-commerce market in China. Man, did we get our fingers burned?

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah. Um, we learned a lot of lessons um in terms of painful lessons and expensive, um, but thankfully not ruinous. Um, but we did learn that moving into to markets takes a lot more than having good products. Yeah. Um, you you really you've got to consider language. Yeah. You've you've got there's, I mean, there's so much.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

There's a thousand things you need to consider. Local demographic, the culture, the language. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

So, yeah. So I mean, your question was is is the f so for a company like ours, I'm I would really, really like to see this just become part of the fabric of of UAE. And I'd love, I'd love it to get sold potentially to a UAE company in the long run. Um, I mean, obviously, I need to sort of look at what I want to do, and I probably don't want to be running a company.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about legacy. Yeah. Um, what what was the plans that you've got to do? Yeah, I think I've always built it.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

I've always built it to sell it.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Is has always been um what I'd like to do. Um, you know, in terms of the future for this region, to be honest, I I I've got so many ideas of things that to do afterwards. Uh this is a place where you can go and try things and do things. It's a great country for testing ideas and and seeing will it be because people here are prepared to try things.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Yeah, and uh, we were talking about it just before we started shooting, right? It's this melting pot of of different people, different ecosystems, different ideas. Everybody's coming here though, to but there's a very big entrepreneurial spirit to people coming to this region at the moment. I think that's what's creating all of these sparks. Um, interest in the um one thing that Erica Doyle said, the CEO of Drink Dry, that she's she saw that ideas and people were coming to the UAE, and then the next phase that she saw were that those ideas were were ruminating and building in the UAE, and then they would pop out into the the rest of the world. So her her vision was that she'd see a lot of the products that were created here being available to the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I totally I totally agree. And um, we work with a coach in the States who who says, he says, Stevie, nobody knew argan oil 10 years ago. He said, is there any reason why camel milk can't become the new its ingredient of the future? Um, and so I think there is there is a lot of opportunity for us to to to really move this type of product out. I mean, we'd really need to think about what those markets need.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

But in terms of the over I I mean, I'm excited for what's what's happening here. And you look at other countries and it's it's quite depressed.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

And I don't find Dubai UAE at all depressed.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Well, the the the ambition of the region is to double in size by 2030, I think. I mean, that's a that's a big enough market now. Yeah. 30 million people.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

And you know, with the infrastructure, with the vision of our leaders that are here, I think they'll get there. Yes. And that, like, to try to think that it's going to triple in size in you know, four or five years is just astronomy.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

I'll tell you what else they do. That's that's that's pretty amazing. Um is we work really closely with a lot of the chambers, like Chamber of Commerce, Dubai Exports. Um they are astonishing in terms of how much effort they put into supporting local business.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Um, I mean, we've been to events, shows, roadshows. Um, they work tirelessly to support local.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

And I kind of referenced it before. We see we see a lot of that from the ministries and the and as you say, the the areas of government that are trying to promote. I think it's really nice that the it's all segregated. It's nice, easy to understand. Yes. Um, sort of lines from the government to to support entrepreneurs, local businesses, AI, you know, you know where to go to get support, and they are very driven in supporting everybody who goes.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

And they're very and they they all want to get the smiley face.

unknown 50:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

They all want to get the smiley face.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

The digital uh digital screen.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

I like those. It's simple. Yeah, yeah, I do as well. And let me tell you, as a business, if if something goes wrong and you hit the sad face, you'll get a call asking, yeah, what happened?

SPEAKER_00 50:44

What did we do wrong?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

What did we do wrong?

SPEAKER_00 50:46

And uh as you get a feeling in other areas and in other regions of the world, so you click that sub face and it'll go into a mail inbox and nobody will read it.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

You know, my I haven't had much experience outside of the UK and you know, originally South Africa. So I'm not quite sure what the business environment is, but I do know that it is pretty extraordinary. Yeah, you know, recently we we had a a problem just trying to get a document for an export to Kuwait, and things had gotten really stuck in the municipality, and they've been changing systems. Digital change, as you're aware, is can be painful. Of course. And it's been a pain. I know the montage system they've really they've really had a lot of teething problems with it. And um made a phone call to somebody in Dubai Export who put us in touch with someone in DM who said, please come and visit. Problem sorted within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Um you just don't get that level of support anywhere. I'm not aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

This was the highest, I mean, this is really high level in DM just said, please come sit with me, tell me what your problem is. Yeah, and let me see if I can get this resolved for you. How can I help? Yeah, and and he but he also, you know, just explained the issues and said, I'm so sorry. Yeah, but here's the problems we're having. But let's see if we can get this resolved for you because we don't want to stop exports from this country. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

I mean, uh I'm always fully inspired by the the level of commitment of the the UA government to support all the businesses. Obviously, from a right bank perspective, it's it's critically important to us. But what a what a lovely way to to end the podcast. I could literally sit here and speak to you for hours.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Well, I've enjoyed myself.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.