Is It Really Anxiety? How to Tell If Your Dog Is Anxious or Just Being a Dog

Is It Really Anxiety? Understanding What's Really Going On With Your Dog

Is your dog truly anxious, or could something else be driving their behaviour?

In this episode of Pawsitively Spoilt, Tanya sits down with dog behaviour expert Sarah Rutten to unpack one of the most commonly used (and often misunderstood) terms in the dog world: anxiety. Together, they explore what canine anxiety actually looks like, why the label is often overused, and how owners can tell the difference between genuine anxiety and behaviours caused by boredom, lack of boundaries, learned habits, or simply a cheeky personality. 

Sarah shares practical advice on recognising the true signs of anxiety in dogs, what steps owners should take if they're concerned, and when it's time to seek professional help. They also discuss calming products, supplements, medications, and whether they're being used appropriately in today's pet industry. 

If you've ever wondered whether your dog's behaviour is anxiety, attention-seeking, frustration, or something else entirely, this episode will help you better understand your dog and make more informed decisions about their wellbeing.

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  What canine anxiety actually is 
•  Common behaviours that are mistaken for anxiety 
•  How to identify genuine signs of stress and anxiety 
•  When to seek professional behavioural support 
•  Practical ways to help an anxious dog 
•  The truth about calming products and medications 

Whether you're raising a puppy, supporting a rescue dog, or navigating behaviour changes in an older dog, this conversation is packed with valuable insights for dog owners.

Sarah Rutten Dip CBST KPA CTP CPDT-KA is a bestselling author, keynote speaker, canine behaviourist, and welfare advocate who has spent over 20 years helping humans and dogs actually understand each other. Her witty, tell-it-like-it-is approach has earned her features on The Morning Show (Channel 7), Apple TV, Roku, Better Homes & Gardens, The Courier Mail, and a stack of radio and podcast appearances. Sarah runs online programs and 1:1 behavioural consultations — in person on the Sunshine Coast or via Zoom, anywhere in the world.

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 Not sure if your dog has anxiety? Send a DM with the word ANXIETY to Sarah on Instagram for a complimentary checklist to identify what anxiety really looks like. See if your dog is showing signs – and what you can do about it.  

Transcript

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My dog has anxiety. It's a phrase we hear all the time, but is it really anxiety or could something else be going on? Today I'm talking to Sarah Rutton from the Canine Perspective, and we're unpacking the signs, the misconceptions, and what owners need to know to better understand their dogs when it comes to this issue of anxiety. Who's positively spoiled? If you have a spoiled oodle, just like me and many others, then you're listening to the right podcast. Positively spoiled is a podcast focusing on helping you raise a happy and healthy oodle. Now we know just how fussy, cute, loving, and sometimes challenging they can be. But hey, us two-legged can't resist a cute, four-legged face. I'm Tanya, chief porsen, pet concierge, and temporary porrant to many small dogs that are part of the extended oodle family here at Three Sport Dogs. As a lifelong small dog owner and temporary porrant to many other oodles and many small dogs, I have seen it all, and this podcast is here to help you raise the happiest and healthiest oodle that you can. And hey, we don't discriminate. So if you have any other breed of dog, you'll find the podcast relevant and helpful too. So pause up and let's get into today's episode. Hey everyone, it's Tanya Williams, here Chief Pawson at Three Sport Dogs, and host of the Positively Sport Podcast. Today I'm talking to the fabulous Sarah Rutten from the Canine Perspective. Now you would probably remember Sarah from our last series when we um when we spoke about some behavioural issues. And uh this time we're gonna touch on some more of those and specifically around anxiety because it's one of those topics that's so huge and that word gets thrown around a lot and whatever. So we're gonna dive deeper into that. So thanks for uh being on the show again, Sarah. Thanks, Tanya. It's my absolute pleasure to be back here again. Thank you. And do you want to um just start with just giving everyone a bit of a brief intro into as to who you are and what you do? Sure. So I am Sarah from the Canine Perspective. I'm a canine behaviour specialist, professional dog trainer, best-selling author, and keynote speaker. Uh, I have been doing this now for ooh 21 years, which makes me older than I care to admit, and I have loved every single second of it. So I help uh people with their dog problems and dogs with their people problems, because often it goes both ways. And yeah, love working with dogs with anxiety, I love working with dogs with reactivity, I love working with dogs full stop. So it's uh it's my passion, it's something that I absolutely, absolutely adore. And um, yeah, that's it, it brings so much joy to my life to be able to help. It's the best, isn't it? Working with dogs is like I say it's the best job in the world because like they there's just there's they bring so much to you in your heart, like it's just such a great thing to be able to do. I know, I know. It's and people often say to me, Oh my god, you're so lucky. That's that would be the best job in the world. I think people forget that I actually do a lot of work with the human part, yeah. And humans are the hardest breed to train, I have to, I have to admit, they are the hard humans are the hardest breed to train, but um, yeah, it's it's such a fulfilling job. I just I love it so much. Yeah. Now, uh before we get started on the top of anxiety, Sarah and I have both had some uh big losses in the last couple of weeks. We've both lost a fur baby. So if we get emotional, just like I am kidding now, uh, which we probably will do, um, just just go with it because um, you know, as much as you know, we are both pet professionals, you know, we are very much grieving at the moment. And um, you know, you can put on a persona and a face and pretend that everything's all happy and great and whatever, but underneath we uh we're both very sad and having to deal with this in in um in our own ways. So and I think it's important just to just address that for a moment because you know, dog grief, um, you know, losing a baby is very, very real, and and not everyone understands the depth of that. Um, and that it does look like, you know, we're just carrying on as normal, but often there's a lot happening below the the surface. And and both Sarah and I want to normalize that um as well because it's important to talk about it and say, hey, it's okay to have those bad days and be feeling a bit crap at times and uh burst into tears when you need to let it out. And and uh like in the pet like in the pet aisle at Woolies, you know, like it's okay to burst into tears at the in the pet aisle or the pet shop. And and I think, you know, I had a client because I've been posting about this quite a fair bit, especially in my in my emails to my email list over the last couple of weeks, just to normalize it. But I had somebody write back to me and they said that each time they've lost a dog, it has felt different. And I think that that's really important to normalize as well. That sometimes the grief and the feelings that come with it can be a whole roller coaster of anything from sadness to despair to anger to guilt to relief to joy to you know, like it it is that's what that's what grief is. It's this it's this melting pot of emotions, and all of them are okay, all of them are valid, all of them are welcome, and all of them are normal. And I think that it's it's important to to recognize that and allow space for it. Absolutely, 1000% agree. So uh, so if we if that does happen today when uh when we're recording this, guys, just go with it, okay? Uh we um, you know, we are human just like everybody else, and uh we're just dealing with uh a lot of stuff at the moment. So uh talking about dealing with stuff, let's talk about anxiety because it's one of those things, and and obviously looking after oodles, we see a lot of oodles with with uh lots of anxiety issues and so forth. But I think people often will go straight to, oh my god, my dog's anxious, and that word is thrown around a lot. But what does it actually mean from a behavioral point of view? Because I don't think everyone always gets that right in terms of my dog's anxious or they're not anxious or whatever, but but it let's just break it down. What does it actually mean? So anxiety essentially means a nervous system that is activated. So when we have a when we have an activated nervous system, we have uh a system that is on hyperdrive or overdrive, or um, and I've just realized that I didn't switch my emails off. Let me do that really, really quickly so that we don't get interrupted again. Um it's it's a nervous system that that is a little, it can be a little amped up, it can be a lot amped up. So when we're looking at anxiety, often I will look at it in categories of mild, moderate, and severe. So I think a lot of people will sometimes think, oh my god, my dog is anxious, and they immediately jump to the severe category. But we can have dogs who are mildly anxious or anxious about various different things. So they might not have generalized anxiety where they're anxious about everything, they might just be anxious about storms, or they might just be anxious about other dogs, or they might just be anxious when someone comes to visit, or they might just be anxious about children. So we can have dogs whose nervous system gets a bit activated, whether they feel threatened, whether they feel unsafe, but essentially that's what we're talking about. Yeah. And look, I think um, you know, that I feel like the word has become really overused, and I think it has become really misunderstood because I think as soon as there's a behavioral issue, someone wants to go, oh my god, that must be anxiety or it's separation anxiety, or it's this or it's that. Um, do you think that that has that is the case, that it is really an overused term, or it's a misunderstood term? I think it's a misunderstood term. I think that I think that you know anxiety can be it can be a really complex thing. And I think that, you know, it's it's actually good in a way that people are looking at avenues of anxiety as opposed to quite a few years ago, people were like, oh, they're just trying to be dominant, and everything was about dominance and yeah, yeah, that is a term that gets bandied about a lot still, that is actually very inaccurate. So it's kind of good that people are going, oh, maybe it's anxiety rather than yeah, they're just naughty or they're being dominant, because that's actually more inaccurate than anything else. So I think that it's a it's a misunderstood term, and I think that people get worried when their dog, you know, may display some signs of anxiety or may be stressed in a particular circumstance. And anxiety can come from all sorts of places as well. It can be genetic, it can be as a result of poor diet, it can be because of gut dysbiosis, it can be because of uh pain, or if they're unwell, or it can be because of a particular situation that happened, or because they weren't properly socialized when they were a puppy. You know, there's so many reasons why anxiety can occur. And I think that not necessarily understanding it, it you know, knowledge is power, right? So the more that we understand what's going on for our dogs, the more that we can help them, and the less it becomes this overwhelming, oh my god, my dog has anxiety and I don't quite know what to do. Yeah. And I think, you know, we we touched before, and it might have been before we we jumped on, we were talking about the human element of this as well. And we play such a huge part in how this is obviously like handled day to day, because I think some people think, oh my god, my dog's anxious, so I just have to coddle it, or I've just got to do this, or I can't leave it because it's anxious and stuff, and and in actual fact, they're probably not the best ways to be handling it. But we'll obviously we need to touch on on that as part of the conversation. But let's like when it comes to true signs of anxiety, like I guess people like how do we tell if a dog's actually anxious versus the dog is just actually like playing up a little bit or being a bit naughty? Like, is is there a way of seeing that? Yeah, so dogs will display anxiety or stress through their body language, so we can see ways where, and sometimes they're not as overt as what we think. So things like yawning or doing this nose lick where their tongue goes over their nose as opposed to around their mouth when there's food present. Or a shake off, like dogs will shake off if they're uh wet, or sometimes first thing in the morning, but they'll also shake off if they're stressed, or panting when it's not hot, or pinning their ears back, or opening their eyes wide, where you it's called whale eye, where you can see the whites of their eyes. So there's lots of little tells that our dogs do, you know, they could be whining, they could be barking. Sometimes jumping up can be an anxiety behavior. And often we won't see one in isolation. So you might see a dog start panting and then do a big yawn and then do a nose leak or and then pin their ears back, or you know, so you will often see a variety of different behaviors very close together, and that can give a real indication that that they're nervous or anxious or their nervous system is activated. And look, quite frankly, we do it too. You know, when you see somebody who is anxious, they might get a bit fidgety, or they might, you know, you'll see people sometimes twirl their hair, or they'll they'll, you know, bite their fingernails, or they'll flick their fingers, or they'll twirl their ring, or they'll play with their necklace. You know, so so we you know fidget with their clothes. We do things that indicate that our nervous system is a little bit activated. And when we're talking about the fight or flight response, which which is an activated nervous system, we have flight and fight, but we also have freeze, fidget, and fawn. And often these behaviors that you see with dogs when they're showing signs of stress is that that's in the fidget category. So we see them doing these behaviors where they kind of can't sit still or their body is, you know, their body is quite activated. So there's signs that that there is something going on for them. Yeah. And and often when dogs display naughty, and I'm going to use that in inadverted commas, naughty behaviors, you know, sometimes that can be because we've inadvertently taught them something that we didn't want to, or because they don't know the behavior that's expected, or because there, you know, there is a way to access reinforces. There's some some way that they can get what they want through doing it. So I tend not to use the word naughty behavior so much as undesirable. So, you know, this this thing with behavior and anxiety, it can be quite complex. But then on the other hand, I don't want to make it too complex to confuse people because I think that doesn't allow us the opportunity to help our dogs if we're stressed out and confused. Yeah. And I thought I think the first sign is what you touched on before, recognizing those little signs that we go, okay, we can see that there's these things happening and knowing what they are, like the stuff that you've mentioned. There's a couple that went, oh, the nose lick and the shaking. I didn't realize that that was a an anxiety thing as well. So if we educate ourselves and understand, well, what are the signs and that we should be looking for, and that could actually be anxiety, and then the next step, I guess, is then let's figure out how we help them to come through that. Whether that's just a short-term anxiety, as you mentioned, they're they're just scared because mum's about to leave, or there's a kid there, or there's something that makes them anxious as a one-off thing, or it's a bigger picture and they're more anxious in general. I think humans play such a big part in this whole thing. Like, I know we have dogs that will come here and I just think, oh my god, I just know that they need training. Some people are open to that and go, yep, yeah, we know, and we're we're on it, and we're doing, and you go, great. But some people you just go, I know if I say something to them about the fact that they're enabling their dog's behavior, it's not going to go down well. So it's one of those things I guess it's hard to hard to balance from certainly from a dog sitter's perspective. But I guess you would see it all the time as well, going, Well, I know what your dog wants, but I have to be careful in how I manage the human or the owner through this whole process as well, because some people just don't really understand the dynamic, I think, between owner and dog, right? For sure. And I think that some people, you know, some some guardians feel like um like it's a it's a personal reflection on them if they're not doing something. Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh my god, my dog, like, you know, I'm such a bad human, or I'm such a bad guardian, or I'm such a bad dog mum be or dad because my dog is anxious. And look, I I get people, like I had a client the other day who said, I know that the problem is me. I know my dog is feeding off my anxiety. And sometimes that happens, but also our dogs can have anxiety in their own right, and dogs actually co-regulate with us. They're one of the few species in the world that do that, they co-regulate with us. So, what that means is that they do pick up on our feelings, our stress, a bit like children do, but we also pick up pick up on theirs. So we can see this you know, nervous system thing that goes backwards and forwards, and sometimes I do see very stressed guardians have very stressed dogs, and sometimes I see very calm guardians have very stressed dogs. And so sometimes, yes, sometimes it is that the dog is picking up on what's happening for you, but sometimes it's not. And I don't think, you know, the people then blame themselves for their dog's behavior. There is a saying that says there's no bad dogs, only bad owners. I don't agree with that. I think that's you know, that's and I'm not saying that I think there are bad dogs, I think there are struggling dogs and misinformed people. And I think that it, you know, when we take the blame out of it, we can look at it and go, okay, what is happening here? How can I help? How can I support my dog better? How can I, what can I do to make my dog feel safe? What is it that that I can do? And so when we get into that mindset, we can be proactive and we can do much more good to support our dogs than going, oh, it's my fault, or oh, my dog is bad, or you know, my dog is so naughty, my dog is so anxious. Like, I think the more that we can go, okay, this is what's happening. What can I do? How can I help? How can I make things better? And that mindset is such a big part of this whole process because as you said, there's you no one wins by beating yourself up a bed and going, oh my god, like I'm just terrible and I've done this. Like, no one wins from that. Um, but but changing our mindset around it and going, you know what? Okay, there is a problem. You know, I could be part of it, I may not be part of it, maybe that's my dog's nature or whatever. But how do we now go through the next steps to fix that? And how can I support them? Um, because it is so important, I think, that we look at it as ways to support our dogs because yes, they are our, you know, our babies. And I know myself, I've always just wanted to give them the best, healthiest, happiest life I could. And and how do I do that? Well, it's things like, you know, the exercise and the food, the bright foods, and you know, all the bits that go into that. But it's also that behavioral and emotional support as well, and understanding and trying to always be learning, could I be doing this better? Could I be doing it differently? Am I doing something that is triggering this behavior? And I think taking accountability for that as an owner is really important because I'm part of the process, just like you know, the dog's part of that process as well. So, how can owners tell? I mean, we've spoken about some of those signs, but how can owners really tell the difference between a dog that has got anxiety or they're just being playful or, you know, because I know you know dogs can jump up because they're playing? Like, can we see a difference in those sorts of things to go, okay, that's just normal, playful behavior, but oh how and that's anxiety because it's repetitive, or it's this, or it's that. Like, is there signs that help us see that? Sometimes, sometimes it can be hard. Sometimes this is where a professional comes in, where you know, like I have my my beautiful business coach who I I love dearly, she has a saying that says you can't read the label from inside the jar. And sometimes it is getting somebody who knows what they're looking for, so a professional in this field, to be able to look and go, okay, that is anxiety-based behavior, that is normal play behavior, that is behavior that has inadvertently been reinforced. Yeah. From a from a quick and easy perspective, when we look at anxiety and nervous system overdrive, when a when a nervous system is in overdrive, every the body is tense, everything is tense. Fight, flight, your body is ready to flee or fight. Or freeze, which means everything is frozen. So when a dog is anxious, you will often see them, their muscles are often very tight. They they might walk stiffly, they might move stiffly, they might wag their tail stiffly. So there's a lot of there's a lot of stiffness. Whereas when So body language is super important in this whole process, right? Yeah. Absolutely. So dogs communicate mostly, you know, majority of their communication, particularly with us, is through body language. Yeah. When a dog is calm and relaxed, everything is loose, everything is wiggly, everything is you know, kind of fun. So if you're seeing wiggly body language and even things like play, you know, a dog who is really highly anxious and stressed may not play, may not exhibit, you know, normal in inverted commas type behavior, normal greeting behavior, normal, you know, elimination behavior. There could be all sorts of reasons. So when we see behavior that's not normal, you know, one of the things that we look at is is anxiety in play here? Do we have an overactive nervous system? So, you know, that's a that's a something that guardians can look for, but sometimes getting a professional in is the easiest way to go, okay, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I think you need to do, this is the way to handle this. Because look, I know that when I go to the gym, you know, like I will if the the instructor checks my form because because I can't look from inside myself to go, am I doing this squat right? Like the instructor will look at me and go, yes or no. And if it's a no, she will give me direction on how to improve my form. So sometimes it's very difficult to see things. And when you're seeing your dog every day, day in, day out, it might be normal for your dog to do a certain thing in a certain way, but that is actually an anxiety-based behavior that you're missing because it's normal for them. So it can get complex. So getting another pair of eyes, getting a professional in who knows a lot about anxiety, uses force-free methods, who can identify, you know, what potentially is going on, can sometimes be incredibly useful. Yeah. And look, I guess it's the same thing with humans, right? Like we go to people to get help in whether it's said going to the gym or seeing a therapist or whatever it might be with issues that we know that we can't fix ourselves. And that's, I think, the big thing. If we go, well, we don't really know the steps to take or how to fix it properly. That's when I need to go, I need to talk to someone who does this day in, day in. Day out and can actually see more and again and have fresh eyes that make a huge difference because you can see stuff that I might not, I might not see, the owner might not see, and you go, Oh, yeah, I actually didn't notice it. I didn't think that was a an issue, or yeah, I thought it was an issue, but didn't know how to handle it, or you know, whatever that might be. So I think that's um, you know, really important that we we think of it like that as well. That go, well, it's no different to how we handle things as as people. Um, but things like like boredom or lack of boundaries or learned behaviour, like I'm assuming those types of things can impact behaviour, or is there a difference when a dog's just simply bored and then being they're going, I'm just bored, I'm just gonna do this because I'm bored, or is that just another form of anxiety? Look, boredom, boredom can absolutely contribute to to anxiety. Um I know I know I if I'm bored, which I'm not bored very often because I live quite a full life. Time to be bored, but I know that when I'm idle, that is when my brain starts thinking about all sorts of things. So um, but when we're looking at boredom, we're looking at unmet needs. So unmet need for mental stimulation, and that you know, unmet needs absolutely can contribute to boredom. Um sorry, can contribute to anxiety. So um, you know, un undiagnosed pain can absolutely contribute to anxiety. You know, there's so many things that can actually contribute to anxiety. So we might have a a dog who may have a tendency towards anxiety, and unfortunately, oodles tend to be in that category. You know, staffies are also in that category. There are the um dash hounds are in that category. There are lots of dogs who are in that category where they have a tendency to lean towards anxiety. You add in a poor quality diet, you add in a lack of mental stimulation, a lack of exercise, a lack of social contact. So, you know, not enough, not enough people or other dogs to interact with. You add all of those together, and there's the potential there to have quite an anxious dog. So unmet needs is a is a big one. Um you know, sometimes it can be as simple as what does my dog need, and making sure that you're actually providing for that. How much exercise do they need? What good quality food can I be feeding? Because there is a very strong link between the gut and the brain. Huge, it is in us as well. So, you know, poor quality diets can absolutely uh influence brain chemistry and and how the brain works and can a hundred percent contribute to anxiety. And I see that day in and day out every single day. Yeah, so there's there's lots that can be done, there's lots that can contribute, there's lots of very simple things that people can do, but sometimes it does it does take direction and instruction because it can be quite overwhelming. There's so much information out there, everyone has a different opinion, the internet is full of people giving their thoughts and ideas, and it can get that in itself can be really overwhelming. Yeah, because one person can say this and the next person can say the total opposite, and you go, well, which one's right? Like, what am I supposed to listen to? And you know, Google's a great thing for that self-diagnosis stuff, right? Um, but I think all that stuff that you touched on, I don't think people understand how important things like the diet and the socialization and the exposure to different types of things and all that sort of stuff impacts their development, particularly from puppies, um, as you're trying to like teach them the you know what's happening in the world. But because I know we see it here, especially with only dogs, if they don't have another dog or it's just them and their dog, then there is often anxiety because they've obviously just kept doggies so close and they love them so much, which is great. But at the same time, it's like, yeah, but you that there's things that they're missing out on because you're not providing them that socialization, you're not providing them the right type of food. Um, and food's such a big one because I know that there's certain foods which are great to help with anxiety and stuff as well. But I think again, it comes back to people educating themselves around this and going, how do I do things differently or better or understand more so I can give my dog what it needs because it's just such a huge and and I get it, like it's it can be confusing and complicated, and like where do I start? But I think starting by firstly recognizing there's a problem and then going, well, how what what are the first few things I can do to fix that is such a huge part of this whole process, right? You know, I just if I can jump in here just quickly when you talked about socialization, you know, the the other thing that's really tricky with socialization is that um look, it's so hard with socialization because a lot of the vets are still saying don't take your puppy out until they've had all of their vaccinations, which is 16 weeks. Yeah. And what happens then, there's a really crucial socialization period between 7 and 11 weeks. That's the time when their, you know, their nervous system is basically a sponge. It's ideal for getting them out there and socializing them to the world, not flooding them, doing it slowly and gradually and making the experiences really good. But you know, vets, because they're concerned about things like pavo, and yes, pavo is something to be very concerned about, are saying don't take them out at all. And the thing is that you can safely take your puppy out, you can carry them, you can have them in a sling, you could have them on a on a footpath because pavo absorbs into the soil, but you know, you can you can have them on a footpath, you can have them socialize to um vaccinated healthy dogs. So there's lots that you and and if you're concerned, you know, a cat pick them up and carry them. There's there's so many ways that you can actually get your puppy out and about, socializing them to the world, to trucks, to buses, to motorbikes, to children, to people on motorized scooters, to umbrella, you know, like there's so many things that you can socialize. Just sitting in a car and sitting in the back of the car and looking and letting them look around at all the things I just said, like the the people and the buses and the trucks and the noises, and like there's so like there is so many things that I think people just think, oh, I'm not allowed to leave the house. And it's like, no, but you are and you should be. No, and so this is the thing, right? So you could carry your puppy, your beautiful cavoodle puppy, to the park, have them on your lap on a bench, and watch the world go by. You know, like you, there are ways to actually that is brilliant for their socialization and it keeps them safe. And so so here we are, guardians who are taking the advice of very well-meaning vets, and it's nothing against vets. But the information that they're getting across is don't take them out until they've had all their vaccinations. And so people completely miss this socialization period, don't take their puppy out until 16 weeks, and then the puppy, many of them have difficulty because they have, you know, they're late to the party with regards to socialization, and now we potentially have an issue with anxiety, you know, that that's that's growing. This is the thing that's really difficult for guardians because they go to professionals who are meant to give them the right information, but the information that blanketed don't take them out is you know, like take them out, but just do it safely. So that can be really tricky for guardians as well. They go to the people in the know, you're not just reading stuff off the internet, people in the know who are actually not necessarily giving them the right information either. It it's really, it's so hard. It's so hard to wade through all of that. Yeah. It is, and I think at the end of the day, you've got to use maybe a little bit of common sense in there as well and go, well, hang on, okay. If they're not fully vaccinated, what makes where do they get this stuff from exactly? Well, they get it out of the soil and the grass. Well, if I don't take them there, then that's you know, obviously minimizing risk. But if I can socialize them in this way and obviously with, you know, other dogs maybe that are fully vaccinated and stuff. And I think just using a bit of common sense around it, and again, it's come obviously coming back to that education piece when you before you get a puppy. I wish people would spend more time understanding what they need to do when they get before they get their puppy, um, rather than getting it and going, oh my god, and expecting this dog to behave, you know, within the first three days of getting it going, well, they're still not sleeping and they're doing this and like it's a puppy, like so often. But I think, yeah, I think and understanding that window because that window of you know, when when they are like that sponge and they're learning so much is so so vital for their development. Um, and I think, yeah, again, the more we talk about this stuff, hopefully, the more that sinks in and people get it. But if someone thinks their dog has got some sort of an anxiety, what's the first thing that they should actually be doing? If they go, okay, my dog's doing this. I think it could be an anxiety thing because they keep doing it. Like, what should they do first? So I think you you've already just touched on what it is that they should do first, and that is to observe. So observing if they notice that every time that they take their dog for a walk and they stop to talk to somebody with another dog, all of a sudden their dog is jumping up all over them, then observing that there, that there is a pattern emerging, that there's a pattern occurring. Um, or you know, I I mentioned I do a lot of work with reactivity. Every time the dog goes for a walk and they see another dog, they start barking. Um, every time that that a man in flu row or a person in fluoro walks past, they start, they start barking or growling. You know, there's there's uh noticing patterns, noticing that something is happening, watching their dog's body language is a really great starting point because then when you do go, you know, if you decide to go to a professional and say, I need some help with this, you can say, I've noticed that this is what happens. I've noticed that this is what happens every time there's a child around. It when we're dealing with anxiety or reactivity, which again is just the expression of the feeling, right? So so a dog who is reactive is merely saying, I'm not coping in this situation. Yeah, I'm not comfortable, yeah. I'm not comfortable, I'm not feeling safe, I'm not I'm not okay right now. And you know, there is another saying your dog isn't giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time. So, you know, when we start to see these, when we start to see these patterns of behavior and they're predictable, that makes it very easy to work with. So the first thing is noticing the patterns, noticing the body language, noticing, even if it's as simple as, oh, I've noticed that every time I grab my keys, they do a yawn. Or every time um, you know, we're at the dog park and another dog comes up to them, all of a sudden they sniff the ground or they do a shake off, or you know, noticing these patterns is is the first start, or the the first, you know, the first step. Yeah. I think if you know, if someone is concerned about their dog's behavior, and there's there's also, you know, when we're looking at anxiety and levels of anxiety, when it's mild, often management can be really quite easy to do. When we start to get into the moderate and severe category, this is where professional help is required. So sometimes even getting an assessment done, I do a lot of behavioral assessments. So sometimes just getting an assessment done, which can be done via Zoom, it doesn't have to be done in person, that can make a difference to okay, my dog's anxiety is mild, my dog's anxiety is moderate, my dog's anxiety is severe. So being able to have some knowledge around that and a plan around that can be really helpful. Sometimes it it literally is reaching out for some help because a plan, again, to go back to my gym analogy, you know, I'm training for a 50-kilometer event. I'm doing an ultra marathon in Geelong. Oh my god, that's amazing. Just to add to the fullness of my life. Um, just two days before my 50th birthday, I'm going to do a 50 kilometer um walk. I'm not running it, but walk. And um, I could go out there and research a whole pile of things on how to do this. No, I've employed an ultramarathon specialist, somebody who knows about ultramarathons, and and you know, he has put together a plan for me. I've got a strategy, we talk about nutrition and hydration. He, you know, like it's all mapped out, my my workouts are mapped out and it's easy. So rather than me going, oh God, how do I do this and going and doing all the research, I've just gone straight to the person who has the knowledge and is the expert, and it's very, very simple. So I think sometimes isn't, isn't it? Like it's like it's all the information's out there, but it's finding it and it's finding the right information, it's piecing it all together. Like there's like you just go, that takes so long, and chances are you're gonna get it all wrong anyway. Potentially go and talk to someone who knows who does this every single day. Like, you know. Absolutely. And so that for me, you know, when somebody says, What do I do about the anxiety? Sometimes it's like, well, we need to determine what your dog's anxious about and and the level of the anxiety before we can go, this is what to do about it. And yes, you can go and research it yourself, yes, you can go and do all that, but the research that's out there is so you know, some of it's outdated, some of it is yeah really, really crap, to be honest. And some of it is really good, but the amount of time you spend wading through all of that, you like sometimes it's just easier to get somebody to go, can you please assess my dog and see what's going on and give me a plan? So sometimes that's just the easiest thing to do. And and you know, we do when I'm when I'm doing behavioral assessments on anxiety, I do absolutely get the vet involved, but you know, vets have got um so much that they need to know with regards to medications and surgery and disease that often, and the vets that I've spoken to about this behavior and training, they get a very little uh you know, um amount of behaviour and training in their vet degree, and sometimes that was 20 or 30 years ago, and so they're not up to date on that sort of thing. They have the smallest amount of nutrition as well, and they're giving advice about that because it's based on what they learnt all those all that time ago, which wasn't necessarily the right thing anyway. Well, you know, things change and things get updated. So actually speaking to somebody who specializes in behaviour, whether that is a behavioral vet, not a vet who's interested in behavior, but a behavioral vet, yeah, or uh, you know, a force-free trainer or a behaviorist, which is what I am. So just you know, speaking to somebody who is more in the world of behaviour, to to yeah, put put a plan together, assess to see how severe it is. Um, it can save a whole load of time, a whole load of confusion, and just give you the right direction really, really quickly. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, so what are some simple things owners can actually implement right now that that will generally help if they've got, you know, an anxious dog, and obviously we understand that there's all different types of anxiety, but what are some simple things that maybe they go, you know, I'm thinking that maybe my dog has got a little bit of this. What can I do today to maybe start with helping, you know, them feel more supported? Yeah. So I think that the easiest thing to do is make sure that their needs are being met. Yep. Make sure their needs are being met and give them lots of sniffing time. You know, there's there's some research that's being done about dogs and you know, I mean, dogs were designed to sniff, right? Their noses are set up for it, their brains are actually set up for it, the area of their brain that's attributed to interpreting smells is massive compared to ours, and their brains are smaller. So if you blew up their brain to the size of a human's brain, the area that's attributed to smelling and interpreting smells is huge. But they're doing research around cortisol levels in dogs, which is the stress, one of the stress hormones, and how cortisol gets lowered when dogs sniff. So there is something I wish I came up with this term, I did not, but going on a sniffari. I know, we've started to to do sniffaris, like it's just letting them sniff. Yeah, yeah, it's like letting them sniff on. And in actual fact, the research where it's headed is that the less you're involved in that sniffari, the more their cortisol reduces. So letting them have giving them if if it's a an off-lead designated area, letting them off the lead, if it's not having them on a long lead so that they can sniff. And this is this is very different to the old way of you must have your dog beside you, you must have your dog at heel, you must have your dog walking at your pace. This is a very different walk. This is a walk that enables them to go where they want to go and you follow. And it actually has nothing to do with you. So it literally is you're on a long lead, the less tension on that lead, the better. And the more they can go and sniff and investigate, the lower their cortisol levels are. So things like nose work can be really good. Anything that gets them sniffing can reduce cortisol levels quite considerably. So it's their stress busting activity for them. And every dog loves to sniff. Oh, absolutely. Um, I mean, I want to sort of touch on products and stuff there for a minute as well, because there's so many products on the market, whether they're supplements or calming products or you know, medications. I'm I'm not I'm I'm not a big fan of medicating dogs when we don't need to. Um, but like, are some of these actually helpful or are they just overused? Like, I don't know that they all obviously work, but what are your thoughts around, you know, some of this, these products and stuff that are actually out, just so-called help anxiety? Yeah, look, some of them are really good, some of them not so much. Um, I have had experience with some that uh that are really good and that I recommend. I have had experience with some that have made absolutely no difference. So I think it is it is finding the right one. And again, it depends on the level of anxiety. So if we have a dog with mild anxiety, there are some really great products that can help. If they're in the moderate to severe category, and particularly in the severe category, and look, I uh have been well, I'm not working with them anymore because they're doing really well. But there was a dog that I was working with where her anxiety was so severe, I'm talking hid under the dresser and wouldn't come out kind of severe for days, as in had to be dragged out to go to the toilet as soon as she would go to the toilet outside, would race back inside and go straight back under the dresser. And what she was a rescue dog who had come from a puppy farm, and and her levels of anxiety were through the roof, and she had to be put on medication because her quality of her quality of life was non-existent without it, and now she you know she is a part of the family. Her because the the whole purpose of medication, and bear in mind that medication is not the be-all and end all on its own. Medication is meant to help the nervous system function properly, help to turn the dial down on that fight or flight. This is a very simple simplistic way of explaining this. I'm not a neuroscientist, and I'm not, I'm not uh, you know, a person. We want simple. We want simple. I'm not somebody who specializes in medication, but you know, the idea of the medication is to help the nervous system not be sending out these signals that they are in extreme danger so that they can then learn what's expected. You know, they can be below threshold, they can be in thinking brain, their frontal lobe, their forebrain can switch back on, which is where the learning part of the process happens. And, you know, she could then become a part of the family. They ended up getting another dog. She, you know, they now play together, she curls up on the couch with everybody, she no longer hides under the dresser. She needed to be on medication. So to help, yeah. Yeah, and that may be permanent or it may be temporary. It it's you know, there are some dogs, just like there are some people out there, that medication is necessary. I agree with you. I don't think we should be throwing our dogs on medication when it's not needed. Well, first of all, especially as a first step. Oh, they're they're anxious, just give them something. It's like, well, hang on a minute, let's look at other things before, if you know, if there are other options rather than just chucking some drugs down their throat. Yeah. Yeah, and diet is huge. You know, like I mentioned before about the the gut-brain connection, it's it is massive. So a lot of the dogs that I work with, one of the things that we look at, particularly when they're anxious or reactive, one of the first things we look at is diet. What what kind of diet are they on? And a lot of your commercial diets, you know, a lot of your kibble has got a lot of preservatives in it because it has to in order to maintain its shelf life, but it's not great for the gut. So I've seen dogs who uh who have reactions from from preservatives in the kibble by scratching or licking themselves, and some who get quite a fair bit of anxiety. So, you know, and some who are who can eat it till the cows come home and it's not a problem. So, you know, that that is one of those things, making sure that their diet is good, making sure their needs are getting being met, making sure they're getting sniffing time, they're the there's that's where I'd start. But yes, some of these products can also be incredibly useful. Okay. Wow, there's a lot in that. We've covered a lot, we've covered a lot um today. But I want to start with uh end with a with a fun question. So if dogs could talk for a day, what do you think that most anxious dogs would actually say to their owners? I think most anxious dogs I don't know. I think they would maybe say just listen, listen more. Listen more. You know, I I had a I had a client that I saw who her dog was highly anxious and and really needed help, and she actually said to me, I don't believe you. I don't think she's got anxiety, I think she's just naughty. And um that was really sad because this dog was really struggling, was really having a hard time, and and her guardian wasn't listening. So I think I think you know, there's so much when we when we know better, we do better. I think by by listening to our dogs, I think that um, yeah, if there was something that an anxious dog could say, I think it might be, you know. Listen, listen, listen, listen yeah, see what look what's going on with me. Yeah, yeah, listen. I like it. I like it. Thank you, Sarah. A wealth of information as always. Um, so many takeaways from that that if anyone's listening and and is having any of these issues, they can implement all straight away and know what to look for as well. And I think, again, it's coming back to the educating themselves around what they should be doing to help their little baby because it's our job to support them and give them a you know happy, healthy life. That's what we're here for. So um, thank you so much for your time and for your expertise and your knowledge. Um, I know anyone listening to this will get so much from this episode. That's my pleasure, Tanya. And if I can throw in a really quick, shameless plug, there is an actual whole chapter about anxiety and reactivity in my book. In your book. So in my book. So if anybody, uh, you know, there's some really helpful tips in there as well. So um, if anybody wants to, you can either head to my website, which is the canineperspective.com.au, or the book is called The Canine Perspective Using Force Free Methods to Unleash Your Dog's Potential, can be found on Amazon as well. It's also available in Kindle and Audiobook. So there's some really helpful hints in there for identifying anxiety, for some simple things that can be done. And um yeah. And we'll link that and we'll send up, we'll put that link in the show notes as well so um people can just click on it and get it. Um thank you, Sarah. Um, thanks for being on the show again. And we got through it without crying. We did well. We did, we did well. We can we can we can turn off now and we can have a little chat. Oh no. Thanks guys for listening and uh yeah, make sure you check out um Sarah's work. She she as you can hear from this, that she really knows what she's talking about. Um so yeah, go and take a look at what she does. Uh thanks, Sarah, and uh let's uh let's chat soon. Thanks, Tanya. Would you like to know more about the services we provide here at 3 Sport Dogs? Now visit our website 3 is in the number 3, sportdogs.com.au. Also send me an email if you've got any questions or to request specific topics in future episodes. If you'd like to become a collaborative partner or just to tell me how much you love the podcast, I would love to hear from you.