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Small Lake City
Small Talk, Big City
Join host Erik Nilsson as he interviews the entrepreneurs, creators, and builders making Salt Lake City the best place it can be. Covering topics such as business, politics, art, food, and more you will get to know the amazing people behind the scenes investing their time and money to improve the place we call home.
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Small Lake City
S1, E91: Head Brewmaster, Mountain West Cider - Marcio Buffolo
When Marcio Buffolo arrived in Salt Lake City from Brazil, a career making alcohol wasn't part of his plan. With a master's degree in cell biology, he followed his scientist wife to Utah where he worked in university research. But a chance opportunity to solve contamination problems at Shades Brewing changed everything. Marcio's scientific background proved invaluable as he built a quality control lab, identified bacterial culprits, and eventually took over as head brewer when his predecessor unexpectedly departed.
The pandemic transformed Marcio's brewing approach. With taprooms closed and distribution channels disrupted, he pioneered an ambitious strategy: creating a new beer flavor every single week for eighteen months straight. From pie-inspired concoctions to savory experiments like jalapeno popper and spaghetti dinner beers, this creative explosion earned Shades three World Beer Cup medals—the pinnacle of brewing recognition.
Despite this success, Marcio found himself yearning for change. Industry pressures, inflation concerns, and shifting consumer preferences left him questioning his future. That's when Mountain West Cider entered the picture. Though initially unfamiliar with craft cider (despite unknowingly drinking it during Brazilian Christmas celebrations), Marcio discovered a beverage category that perfectly balanced his scientific mindset with creative possibilities.
Now as head cidermaker at Mountain West, he's applying his experimental approach to a new medium—crafting everything from traditional single-varietal ciders aged for months to playful innovations like Bloody Mary cider. He recently earned his Pommelier certification (cider's equivalent to a sommelier) and delights in educating visitors about cider's surprising complexity and diverse styles.
Ready to experience Marcio's craft firsthand? Visit Mountain West's garden in the Marmalade District, where you'll find live music, events, and newly added food options alongside an impressive range of craft beverages. As Mountain West celebrates its 10th anniversary, there's never been a better time to discover how science and creativity converge in every glass.
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Join Erik as he supports Fork Cancer, a night of food, drinks, and live music—all for a great cause. Grab your tickets at utah.acscanforkcancer.org and enter Erik Nilsson to help him hit his $12,000 fundraising goal!
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We did one day one brew with him. That day we spent the whole day brewing. The Monday he put his two weeks notice 90 barrels Dynamic, Shut down everything. Thursdays come and get it and if it's done, it's done. We're not brewing yet we started getting lines. So that was when we did all those crazy flavors. In April, Warbeer Cup went to Minneapolis. We we got three medals. That was the the top of my career. And as soon as I get home the next day I went to work. I felt even harder to go to work and she's like hey, do you know? My wife's looking for a cider maker. I'm like cider, when you want to do something, you cannot do a cider. When you want to do something, you cannot do it half-assed, you have to do that full board. I need to learn everything about cider and I have enough. First time I know Small Lake City.
Speaker 2:What is up everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City podcast. I'm your host, eric Nielsen. You might be wondering how a Brazilian grad student at the U ends up becoming the head brewmaster at Mountain West Cider. And not only that, but the story of Marcio Bufalo stops by at Shades Brewing, where he was the one who created a lot of the fun flavors that we know Shades Brewing as of things like blueberry, pecan pie, all the way to spaghetti dinner. So we sit down with Marcio Brufalo and talk more about his story and how he became the head brewmaster of Mount West Cider, and all of the fun story along the way.
Speaker 2:So, without any further ado, let's jump in the episode and hear more in my conversation with me and Marcio. Yeah, but like I never really go to park city because a it's like it's far enough away where I want to do things there. Like I do want to go have some cocktails, have some really good dinner, have to go to a show, but I'm like I still gotta go home and the drive is a fucking pain.
Speaker 1:Yes, drive over there. It's, it's cool, it's beautiful. But yeah, I've been after drinking. No way. And try to get a hotel there in the winter, fuck no.
Speaker 2:No, I'm like, I'm not going to pay $1,200 a night for this, no matter how good the restaurant is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same, I'm doing a Park Silly, we're going to a side gig Cool. I have a bear-aged coffee bean company Totally different stuff, very unique one but then that's my, my weekend stuff. So I do in the park city cool. So every Sunday, go there, spend fucking 10 hours. That's been there long time it's from. Yeah, it starts at 10, but you have to unload before 8 30, so yeah, so I'll be there from 8 to 5, 8 to 6.
Speaker 2:I'll come say hi this weekend because I'm going, so I have a pretty great weekend ahead of me. So tonight my girlfriend she's getting her PhD in. I guess I've never really talked to her on the podcast of me having a girlfriend, so we might take this out. We might not. Anyway so she's getting a PhD up at the? U. In which field? Chemistry.
Speaker 1:My wife works there as a scientist, I do In chemistry?
Speaker 2:No, it was in human genetics. Okay, I'll ask her. It's a small world and also I've learned that, like, small Lake City exists to everybody in Salt Lake. But then when you have a podcast and chase the energy of Small Lake City, it just always keeps happening. And like where I get so desensitized to, I'm like, yeah, what do you know? You know my cousin from some random, so we're going out tonight because one of her colleagues just defended his thesis, so we're going out to celebrate and then tomorrow, going up to, we're going to stay at the Pendry at the high like on the kind of canyon side, go to dinner at Handel and then wake up tomorrow morning or Sunday morning Go record up at Dendrick and then do brunch at High West, then go to Park Silly, then go sit by the pool, then have dinner at Shabu and then go home. And as I planned it, I was like In Park City.
Speaker 1:stop by. We're in the top. Yeah, almost at the end it's all black. It's the only black tent. It's called Spirits of Coffee.
Speaker 2:It's all black.
Speaker 1:It's the only black tent. Okay, it's called Spirits of Coffee, so I'll be there. I'll have some cold brew for you for the rest of the night, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I will need it. So I will definitely be there. But yeah, it's fun to see how. Yeah, park City, I think, is my favorite time in the summer, especially this time of the year where I mean it's currently 87, which is a little on the older side. Like usually, I walk my dogs around two or three and I'll check my watch before I go. I'm like, oh, it's 95. This is going to be fun. Yeah, I know. So it's always good to get up in a little higher elevation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but don't get that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Two weeks ago was 39. Never know, marcia, is it pronounced Ruffalo? Yeah, okay, I was going to say it's all right.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, which is hard. Not everybody can say my name right. Well, thankfully I work with.
Speaker 2:I have my day job in tech. We have a lot of engineers from Brazil, so there's always like some sort of Brazilian something. We're always talking about a barbecue. And then my maid. I got a maid recently because my life was too chaotic to clean my house and someone introduced them. But she's from brazil and so she that's her name maddie.
Speaker 1:No, it's like maria something maria delmeda, maria bernadette delmeda, it's my mom no, no, no she's too young to be your mother. No, she's my mom.
Speaker 2:No no, no.
Speaker 1:She's too young to be your mother. No, she's my mom. Oh, that kind of mom? Yeah, this is true. If it's her, yeah, she has a company who runs cleaning throughout the whole valley.
Speaker 2:Let's just test her. She came on let's just test it here.
Speaker 2:She came on. No, no, it's like miscellane pursuing don't mean good, no, no, dang it. That would have been good, especially as I'm like, yeah, small city moments happen all the time and, by the way, you know my man. But when I got introduced to her, I text her. She's like, sorry, you don't speak english. I'm like, all right, let's fire up chat gpt. And so I just start messaging her in portuguese and she's like she shows up my house and she starts talking to me in portuguese like, oh, no, no, no, like don't speak portuguese. You've been talking to a translator this entire time.
Speaker 2:So, um, but no, marcia, I'm excited because I mean obviously I mean head brewmaster at mountain west cider. Um, been not just there, I mean for like three years now, but there's been a journey through so many familiar places and faces, through the valley I'm excited to to talk through. And it was even fun, I mean, when I swung by there to talk with uh chan about a potential event. I mean she spoke so highly of you and everything that you've done there. So I'm excited, but also wanted to know, kind of, how this all happened, because I mean obviously originally from Brazil, but I mean talk me through the path of how you ended up in Salt Lake City, utah.
Speaker 1:Everybody's like why Salt Lake? No, it's funny. So everything started with my wife. She was doing her PhD in Brazil and she went to this meeting in the countryside in Brazil just a small meeting for the Brazilian Society of Sciences, something like that and she met a guy there that went to Brazil to do like a partnership with other professors and he ended up being in this meeting and he was like scary because it was 13 hour flight plus three hour drive in the middle of nowhere. And then they meet, they talk and they got invited her to do a part of her phd here university of utah.
Speaker 1:So she came here in 2008, stay for a year back to brazil, she finished her phd and we meet in a bar inside the university okay and then then we started a relationship and then after a year she got invited to come back for a postdoc position and I was finishing my master. And she's like, how about we go? Because you were studying biology, we're both biology. She's on the physiology and histology field, I was more in cell biology, but we were both in the same university, same campus, the same building, but we never saw each other until we were in the bar, because Brazil would have bars inside of the campus, like outdoor of the main door of the building. Yeah, there's a bar there, I like that. And then they started running on this experiment. They're going to take three hours to run. Well, what are you going to do for three hours? Well, let's get two beers, four beers, six beers, meet people and then go back, finish the experiment and go home. Yeah, and we met this way. And then she's like, okay, how about this opportunity? I'm like, okay, I finished my master's and I may go.
Speaker 1:So she moved to here for six months before me. I moved here later and I started working at u as researcher associate. She was a postdoc and I stayed there for almost four years. And then one professor next door, the next lab is, uh, jim, uh, friend with trend father, the owner of shades, okay, and shades was having problems with beer going sour, exploding shelves. And he's like I need someone to run like a small lab here so we can fix this problem and not having this happen again. Yeah, and he's like, wow, I know a guy on my lab the next lab who's a home brewer, so I'm asking him if he's interested. And that was a connection that put me from science to the industry. Yeah, like, okay, how about you go to this brewery and run a lab just for quality control?
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, lab, it's lab. That's how they get you. Just come in for a minute, just run a lab for a little bit.
Speaker 1:Can you build the lab? Can you make this happen? Can you build the lab? Can you make this happen? I'm like I am not qualified for that, but I can study and I can try to make it happen. And the university has a surplus center which all old equipment goes to this place for super cheap, yep. And I'm like, okay. So there's this hood that usually gonna cost you 20, 30 grand for like 100 bucks. You should buy it. Oh, there's this incubator that will cost you 10 grand for 50 bucks, buy it. So I started buying all the used equipment and build a lab at Shades. And that's when I started Shades. I was just a lab guy.
Speaker 2:So wait, I'm back up a little bit. So you started brewing on your own long before that Home brew. So how did that? How did how did that start? When did that start? Uh, before?
Speaker 1:when I was about to move to south lake I met a guy, pete, uh, super cool guy and he's like, yeah, I'll bring my home, my own beer home. I'm like, oh, that's never thought about that in brazil. And he like, hey, come to my house, I'll drink my beers and we'll see if you like or not. And it was pretty good beer. And I'm like, oh, how you do that? So he showed me how to homebrew.
Speaker 1:From that I met with a few people that has the Lauderdale Brewery. I started going to those Lauderdale Brewery meetings, learned how to homebrew, bought basic equipment here and there, learned how to homebrew, bought basic equipment here and there, and I was homebrewing at home, literally like once a month, making few batches, trying to understand the process as a scientist, trying to change here and there to see what happened. So I was just homebrew, but it's, in my opinion, since that time it was too much work. It's cool, it's nice. To my opinion, since that time was too much work. It's cool, it's nice to have your product, but I was living across the street from a pub.
Speaker 2:I don't need to make my own beer.
Speaker 1:I only have so much free time Exactly, I can just go over there, spend a few bucks and get beer. Yeah, it's cheaper. At the time it was cheaper and everything. So I'm like, yeah, I'll do for a hobby when I have time. It was nothing that I was. I was like really investing time or buying expensive equipment, it was just for fun. Yeah, and I was actually producing some decent beers. Get some medals.
Speaker 2:That was pretty cool at the time, but you had done it enough. Where, if you run into someone at a bar and they're like, oh my gosh, I need someone to help with this brewery and run a lab, you're like well, I knew, I knew on the lab side more than the brewery.
Speaker 1:I never at that time I just visit a few breweries and I didn't know how scale works. Yeah, I was like, okay, I know how to make wort. Wort goes to tanks, ferment and become beer. Cool, uh, what is a heat exchange? I have no idea. I was cooling my beer with ice, so nice. Now I know this equipment, all these pumps. How a pump works? I have no idea. I'm not an engineer, I'm a biologist. I have no idea how a pump works To this day. Some pumps I have no idea how it works, but it was like some pumps. People are like, oh, I have this differential pressure bubble up pump. I'm like cool, I have no idea how that works.
Speaker 2:Don't ask me any questions, but it sounds great.
Speaker 1:After 10 years in the industry, still with equipment, I have no idea how some equipment works. Yeah, and then, yeah, I knew a little bit. I knew the basics, I knew the scale works, I knew the scale works and I saw shades at the time as opportunity to learn, to invest time and a possibility to grow. But also building up the lab showed me that, so many other phases of the industry that I never thought about how to grow yeast, how to cop yeast, how to select some strengths, how to avoid, avoid problems, because again was she's having problems at that time. So over there and like, okay, let's swap every single part of the process and grow and see where the problem is. And then we swap hoses, tanks inside the tanks, inside of valves, every piece of equipment the world could touch, until we found a problem. And then what was the problem?
Speaker 1:Pediococcus. So pediococcus, it's a bacteria, sorry, yeah, so, yeah, so it was pediococcus in the heat exchange, which is a very common thing. We just fix, change the procedures. And at that time we were like, okay, now, which is a very common thing, we just fix, change procedures. And at that time we're like, okay, now it's fixed, just let's keep clean and keep testing. So that's how I enter in the industry. Yeah, the Habakama Brewery is another story.
Speaker 2:Because my curiosity is because my ignorance says oh, you've been studying biology, you've been doing I mean scientific experiments to some extent, which I mean brewing is a scientific experiment. I mean how much of your knowledge of biology? Because, again, you're still working with like a live yeast and creating a, I mean the chemistry like of how this reaction happens. But how comfortable were you in this specific type of reaction, brewing process compared to what you've been doing in a lab in such an educational context?
Speaker 1:So in Brazil I was working with cell biology, but very focused in genetics. Okay, so more DNA and a few proteins specific for muscle formation. So it was a very different topic. But during graduation and my master, you have a lot of classes. One of the classes that I loved the most was metabolism and fermentation. It's there, it's metabolism, right. So get the knowledge and just translate that. It's one-to-one, it's easy.
Speaker 1:Um, the thing is east makes beer, brewers make wort, brewers extract sugar. Yes, who makes sugar become beer? It's east got it. So there's a. That's the very famous saying brewers make work, east makes beer. Yes, so I know who makes beer East. So I know that.
Speaker 1:I know the process, I know the fermentation. So, okay, now how can I apply this to the industry? Okay, I know the process. I know how this sugar becomes CO2 and alcohol. How can I get this process better? Because it's not just alcohol and CO2. There's a lot of flavors involved there, good flavors and off flavors.
Speaker 1:So butter, you don't want to butter your beer, few styles maybe, but usually you don't want that taste of butter. But in that squash, popcorn, butter in your beer. That can be produced by the yeast. Actually, it is produced by the yeast all the time, but at the end of fermentation yeast collects that back and removes that from the beer. If you don't let the time happen, that will be on your product. So, knowing that process, you understanding the process and how the pathway works, you know you have to wait. You know how to measure, you know how to prevent that habit. So that is the translation between science lab to the beer. You know the process, you know what I have to do. Just do it and that beneficial to that it's knowing and applying the ignorance or avoiding knowing the process will generate bad beer. So just a matter of knowing, understanding, that would be fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially once, because I always assumed that you would have again through all of your getting your master's and working in labs and going through the scientific process enough that you can again taste this new process and be like, okay, I can figure this out, like I speak the language. This is just a different kind of dialect, and so you can do that. And then also, I'm sure it's fun to be like cool, now that I know this process, I know all of these inputs, I know what needs to happen. Now we can start to play with these different levers and really apply the scientific process. Be like, okay if I add more yeast at the beginning, or this type of mosaic hop or this type of yeast let's sit back and watch what happens and all of a sudden you have this knowledge of all these different levers.
Speaker 1:To really start to have fun with it, I would assume and impatient because at the science level, you change one parameter at a time, yes, and then you analyze and how's different from the past? It's better, it's worse. Okay, it's better, let's keep it. And now let's change the second parameter. Don't change five things at the same time and like, oh yeah, it works. Which one works? Which one works? All of them? All of them, maybe just one. The other four is terrible. So all the patience, all the patients slowly changing things, slowly making better, and not always going to be good. Sometimes you're going to change something, you're going to go bad, like, wait, nope, go back a step, let's change a different thing. And that was the lab shades. Teach me that how to select yeast.
Speaker 1:We were at that time become a little famous from the Kvajk strains. That's something that in the US was really low, or no one actually knows that in the industry. And a friend of mine brought this strain from Lithuania. Well, he was not in Lithuania, he was somewhere in Europe and he found this strain and he brought it to me and he was like, hey, I love the beers with this strain, but after three or four weeks it goes sour. What's going on? I'm like give it to me, I have a lad, let's see what's going on there. And I spread it on a plate and yeah, some lactobacillus was mixed on the yeast. So I'm like, yeah, let's clean the lactobacillus. So I'm like, okay, I can clean for you, we get the problem out. But do you let me stay with a little bit of yeast strain? Like okay, no problem. So I cleaned the lactobacillus, give to him back.
Speaker 1:And now I have the yeast strain in my hand which is really good strain and I'm like, okay, can we prop and use this in beer? And it was a phenomenal strain that we used there for so many years, give so many awards. And that yeast strain was very revolutionary at that time because it could ferment fast high temperature, producing so much aromas, nice citrus forward, very fast fermentation, almost no off flavors. Everybody was freaking out. So between probably 18 and 20 that was a hype. Every single brewing in in the country was using that strength. Now we barely hear think about it.
Speaker 2:That's interesting that you have this. Like, I can fix this for you and I'm gonna use it yeah, and and was good yeah, most importantly, it doesn't matter. It doesn't taste good, yeah, but it was good. And I mean so, before you have this conversation with shades I, where did you see your career going? I mean, I assume you didn't think you were going to be brewing beer.
Speaker 1:No, when I got to the U working at the lab over there was like what am I going to do? Am I going to be here and I'll do my PhD? That was an option and stay at the? U as a researcher.
Speaker 2:Or that was an option and stay at the us researcher or go to the industry as a researcher, or my sounds like you, like you knew you wanted to do something in biology, but like there's all these different forks that are like I could see them all but not really sure, and then someone's like just come set up a lab and see how it goes and think about this I was was like finished, my master, fresh finished master, moved from Brazil to Salt Lake, tried to adapt to language.
Speaker 1:You can clearly hear my broken English. I barely speak English. When I moved to here I was okay to read, because lab stuff, science, is all in English. So I could read, understand. I couldn't listen too much and speaking was terrible. I try, you have to try, or you're never going to learn. So I was like language barrier, totally different culture, different climate.
Speaker 1:Think about today is like 87, 90 degrees. Think about today is like 87, 90 degrees. That's a winter in Brazil. That's winter in Rio. Rio have two seasons summer and hell. So right now it's winter there. It's probably like 80s. So different climate, different food, different everything. So I have to adapt. So I was still like what am I going to? Different everything. So I have to adapt.
Speaker 1:So I was still like what are you gonna do? So I have to understand what the market looks like, what is the industry? Uh, my goals in life? I'm gonna stay here. You know, as immigrant, I have to plan two, three, four years ahead. This process takes long. So all this stuff, it's it was too much to think about one path. I have to have plans B, c, d and Y and Z. So at that time I didn't know. I was like, whatever, I feel that will be a good gig, I might jump into it and see what happens. At the time I was probably into it and see what happens. At the time I was probably going forward to a PhD pathway. Got it, this opportunity came. It was good money, it was nice. It was a nice environment. Heroes is fun, yeah.
Speaker 2:And when they talked to you about it, did it feel, I mean, was it very much like we want you to come full time, or is it mostly like come solve this problem At the time, come, get the problem done and that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the number one conversation for six, eight months. I remember the day of I was everything was fine. I was there just getting samples from the tanks, and that was a Friday, and the guy that was running the head brewery at the time was like hey, I'll be brewing tomorrow. I know you have Fridays, saturdays, free. Do you want to come and brew with me? I'm like, yeah, I want to do it. So I did one day one brew with him. That day we spent the whole day brewing. I was like, super cool, I love the idea. Never get an offer or anything, it was just one day to brew with him and help him.
Speaker 2:The Monday he put his two weeks notice.
Speaker 1:He's like Marzio can do it, it's fine, and then a trader was like, okay, what am I going to do? Am I going to have to go to the market and hire people? Or at that time, shades was just buy a brand new system, upgrading from seven barrel two vessels very chinese, uh, terrible brew system to a 30 barrel, five vessels, four vessels, um, auto, semi-automatic, and everything like should I hire someone right now, train this for a month in this system and then have to train again? Or I'll give more of the freedom to this. Like, okay, go learn this system brand new and in a month it become full-time. Well, that was the offer and I'm like, okay, let's do this.
Speaker 1:So I kind of helped for the transition and when the brand new system arrived, I was fully committed. I quit the? U, become a head brewer shades. And again, that's very rare I have the opportunity to run a system with minimum experience. I was with Trent for a month, a month and a half, but I have the desire to learn to taste and every single batch of cake. How can we make this better? Let's study, let's change this process, let's change this mold, let's talk to people. And at that time I people in the industry, which is it's amazing industry everybody helps each other. Yeah, um, I cannot be thankful for so many good people in this industry, in this town that like, okay, you're doing this wrong, fix this way. Or you want to improve, use this malt, use these hops, don't do this, don't do that. So that was easy way for me to step up, get better knowledge and in less than four months we were fully brewing like turn and burn all the time on the new system with a great team.
Speaker 2:We have a great people over there, and so I mean, while you were there, I mean what are some of the highlights of the beers that you were able to make? Or I mean some of those, I mean best moment or best memories from Shades.
Speaker 1:When we started making some sour beers. That was the funny thing. We did one batch with the old system just to test if it could make a sour beer, and it was terrible.
Speaker 2:What's the biggest difference between brewing a sour beer versus brewing other things we were doing?
Speaker 1:a kettle sour, which we call easy, fast sour. It's going to be very no complex, low complexity. You're going to be a beer that's going to be just sour with lactic sour. You're going to be a beer that's going to be just sour with, like, lactic sour. So you're going to have that lactic acid taste and basically that's it. You're not going to have a lot of complexity like other long time bar age sours or flanders and some styles are going to have barrel, multiple types of organisms that will add complexity to that flavor. We're talking about simple lactic acid sour made from lactobacillus. So lactobacillus will get the wort. You finish the beer instead of sending the wort to the tank, you pitch lactobacillus and overnight that will drop the pH and will become sour. Then after that you ferment like a normal beer and you have a sour beer. Okay, usually sour beers just base sour beers are boring most of the times a lot of defects, so you're going to see a lot of that being fruited or spiced or other things.
Speaker 1:Shields is known for a lot of different things, so at that time we make one with the old system Terrible, terrible, it was meaty, it was terrible. And then we fruited. And then what is the cheapest fruit available was plum. So okay, let's buy a drum of plum, throw over there and see if we can save this. And after re-fermenting, all that meaty flavor went away. The beer was kind of like crispy, nice, dry, fruity, refreshing. It was a summer, like, okay, maybe this can become something good. Fast forward.
Speaker 1:A year and a half later we were being tanks full, basically that week that you don't have anything to brew, and this one tank that was about to get empty. Nothing really in the schedule. I'm like oh, I'm going to make a sour beer, let's put a sour beer there and let's ferment with the Kavak strain that we cleaned up. Let's see how that goes. We make a small batch, 15 barrels, and I was like and I want to dry hop that with a Nelson Savant. It's a hop that it's really nice, grapey, like a lot of grape flavors, of Yon Blanc kind of flavor. Okay, let's try Hoppip Den and see how that beer turns out. And then that beer turns out really really good, like good. And that was the second medal of shades in Idaho Falls we got a medal for sour beer. I'm like, oh, this beer has a future, people like it, not a lot of defects. So let's refine that, let's make that better.
Speaker 1:Then we run a big batch and divide that in three small batches, and one we just dry hopped. One single fruited, I think it was just cherry or something like that. And the third one I'm going to go crazy. I throw lactose pineapple, guava think, and it was kind of like one, two and three. We named that way and it was so good and sold out really fast and everywhere people were talking about drinking those beers. Hey, so that was the start of those sour crazy things.
Speaker 1:The lactose trend that we introduced so much lactose in those beers because we're souring but we have nothing to back sweet with, so lactose gave us that balance. And the fruits were all tropical, so good. So we'll say, if any tropical fruit, oh, so good, so good. And then we become a trend. So all kvikes started getting numbers, to a point that we started losing which one is whoa. Five was dry hop. No. Seven was dry hop. Eight was okay. We started naming the thing, because we cannot keep number, so we started naming, naming and then we have the 2020.
Speaker 1:It was February, we're planning because summer was coming. So that dry hopped one won the JBF in 2019 gold medal. So like, okay, we know we're making good stuff, we got gold at JBF, so let's bump, let's brew 90 barrels of that beer because that beer is going to fly. Let's prepare, summer is coming, let's start brewing that in February. 90 barrels, dynamic, dynamic, shut down everything. Oh, like, okay, liquor stores are shut down. We have 90 barrel this beer almost right in the tank. Like start fermenting two, three days ago.
Speaker 1:We're like what are we gonna do with this amount of work? So, on that meantime that we're like thinking what to do earthquake, so okay, shit, okay, uh, disaster is coming, so pandemic earthquake. What's the next plague? So we're talking about apocalypse here. Yeah, and my uh aj was my bro's assistant. He's like the four horsemen of apocalypse. Let's call four beers, four like plague, yes, hinger, whatever is the fourth thing. And they're like, oh, that might be too much, people are dying for this text. So let's just let's call a hurricane, earthquake, season or series, whatever which we named after, like aftershock, shockwave, that was the name.
Speaker 1:And we divide the 90 barrels into 615 barrels, thanks, and fruit it differently and release once a week. Wow, so okay, once a week we have a new flavor in cans. Only because we're closed pandemic, so it's to-go only Thursdays. Come and get it, and if it's done, it's done. Go only, uh, thursdays coming at it, and if it's done, it's done. We're not brewing again. We'll start getting lines and selling out one day. So that was the train when. So okay, now we have to make one beer a week. Yeah, now you set that expectation. Yeah, and that happens for almost 18 months.
Speaker 1:Wow, we, in 2020, we produce 59 different beers. In 2021, we produce, I think, 65 or 70 different beers. That's insane. We have one a week. And then we have the 10th anniversary, which we put 10 collaborations, like releasing two a week, yeah. And then we're like creating so much, and that was the nice thing, we have freedom. So we also like creating so much, and that was the nice thing, we have freedom. So, like every four months, five months, we have all people together from the brewery, production, sales team, marketing team.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want flavors. I don't care, give me flavors. And we started writing the board. Okay, we have categories Pie. So lactose, graham, cracker, panela, cinnamon what else? Cherry pie, strawberry bar pie, let's go. And they started writing the board every crazy ideas. I don't care if it's crazy, good, let's go Now. I want a fruit combinations we start giving. Now I want a crazy combinations. I don't care if you think this is insane, it tastes like awful. Give me the ideas, we will make this happen. And we have those jalapeno poppers yeah, so bacon, cream cheese and jalapeno spaghetti, yep, and I've had the spaghetti, tomato, basil, cilantro and oregano. Some like okay, some like okay, pms pecan pie. So, like all of those ideas. Some go more towards the sour side. Yeah, some we didn't sour and make it as a cream ale. And some went to a new base. That was a uh dessert, uh, so it was like an inquiry style base. So we have these three and they start running all those kind of flavors. So that was when we did all those crazy flavors.
Speaker 2:Wow, I mean that's crazy to think of All right, every week. We need something new. We now have this system that can support it, but then also being like, hey guys, we're running out of ideas. Just tell us, just keep going, keep going.
Speaker 1:Nothing's off the table If it happens sometime like, okay, we're damn, we don't have a way to make this happen. Well, what was the most successful last year? Key lime pie, bring it back. Another one Strawberry berry pie, bring it back. Bloody Mary, bring it back. So it's something like that oh, bring it back, bloody Mary, bring it back. So it's something like that. Oh, the jalapeno pineapple pickle jalapeno pineapple, bring it back. Yeah, so stuff like that was successful. Yeah, bring it back. Then we don't have people who still want it to go too crazy. But why not so?
Speaker 2:it's interesting. So you have this experience where you're like I brew beer at home takes too much time. I'm good you have this opportunity. You have so much fun with it in turn. I mean again, like this pandemic and earthquake and like windstorm into like we're just going to make a new brew every week. I mean, and talk me through how you go from this world of beer to then transition to cider.
Speaker 1:So that was June 21,. Great year, all right. Then stress of other things started coming through. So we started seeing multiple breweries going out of business. Even after pandemic you saw that recover and then breweries going out of business. It started stressing me out Prices going up, inflation, and it was hard for us to try not to pass it to consumer. But every time you pass a consumer you have a backslash, yeah, back splash, a backlash, sorry. And then we're like, okay, that stress are building up in my mind. Uh, at the same time I saw the whole innovation.
Speaker 1:Every beer every week started to die out. People like, okay, I, I try everything. Pretty cool. Now let me go back to my everyday beer. And that was not an everyday beer. It's not beer. You could pound four or five. That was the idea. To drink share one can. Now everybody want to drink four or five of the same. Those beer were going down. I saw that. I saw the trend. I talked around a few people like industry gonna suffer for a while. Packaged beer is gonna go down heavily and I started stressing too much I. I started seeing things not going well for the next two or three years. That was one thing that started keeping me awake multiple days a week and that stress was building up so strong that I needed to change pace. That was unexpected.
Speaker 1:Sida was not in my radar at all. I was looking for change environment, change pace and maybe even changing industry. I even talked to people. To go back to the biological science. I have friends that work at the time. It was BioFire, biomedia. I'm like, hey, come on, come work with me, blah, blah, blah. I'm like maybe let's see how things are going to go. So on my mind I was on that try to change environment, try to change pace. That was on building up in my mind. On the background I was not active, applying, I was not active. Like looking for was not active, looking for jobs. That was just in my mind. And then that starts about February, march.
Speaker 1:In April, world Beer Cup I went to Minneapolis. We got three medals. That was the top of my career. That it's the most important competition in the world for beer. We got three medals all in sour beers, all in those crazy creations. We're so happy.
Speaker 1:I come back home like, okay, I think this can give me more time on this industry. And as soon as I get home, the next day I went to work. I felt even harder to go to work, like that's, yeah, I thought this will give me a bump and actually put more pressure on me and I was not feeling at all. And then at the same week I have a friend in the industry who was covering for the former cider maker at mount west. So he laughed about that time and she was covering for him. Like as much she could she went there, put side in the tank when she could, she went there filter, but things getting behind the mount west. And I called her one day and I started like talking to her about how unhappy I was, how I need a change of pace, and she's like, hey, do you know? My wife's looking for a cider maker.
Speaker 1:I'm like, cider, what? What is cider? I not even knew. I haven't even drink cider. Yeah, well, let me correct, I didn't know. I haven't drink cider because in Brazil we drink cider since we were kids, but in Brazil it's marketed as poor people.
Speaker 1:Sparkling wine oh, interesting, but it's cider. It says cider on the bottle but nobody knows what cider is in Brazil. So what happens is people think it's just a cheap bottle of sparkling wine. Yeah, and I drink that still stand because that is a very normal thing to drink on the christmas in brazil. So everybody that grow up in a poor family, when you go about december the shelves are full of that and talk about a buck, buck feet the bottle. Wow, so people buy that a lot because sparkly pop, it has a corking cage, it looks nice, so everybody has that Because it's cheap. And you think they're drinking beer or wine. They're actually drinking cider. So I didn't know. And then I was like, oh, I drink that cider in Brazil, but I never drink cider here. She's like oh, they are looking for how about you text them? It would be a nice change of pace. It would be a nice change of environment, different industry.
Speaker 1:But how much work is that? How is the workload? It's not like beer. You don't have to brew every day Because, as my wife says, it's an urban society. So we buy juice, so juice comes to us. So all the process of extracting sugar that takes you eight hours a day in a brewery comes in a tote. You just have to pump that in the tank.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the everyday hard labor on the brewery side that breweries have to make, that does exist inside All the cellar side. That's also heavy in beer is the same inside. So at the end, process, everyday work, is the same load as a cider maker, as a cellar maker, a cellar man in the brewery. So those two jobs are very similar. The bigger difference will be selecting your juice. How are you going to approach your juice? Which varieties are you going to use? How are you going to ferment Easy strain? So that comes to deciding, to make decisions. So that umbrella of work it's different, it's more specialized, but every day it's very similar to a cellar man. So she explained that to me. I'm like oh, I can do that. How many employees? Just you and the production.
Speaker 1:I'm like well, I love people, but just me. I can make my own time Sounds kind of nice, so I text them. I'm like, hey, jen, jeff, you guys looking for a setting maker? I am looking, well, I'm not expecting you here, but yeah, let's talk. So we started interview, set, all the the conversation, and then I put my mouth uh, notice, because I don't want to leave. At the time the guy's hanging dry, so like, hey, I'm gonna leave. Sorry, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for all.
Speaker 1:I think it was a nice both ways. Uh, you guys give me opportunity, but also I delivered as much as I could. Yeah, so it was a good. It was a nice, friendly transition. I still talk to them all the time. So it was really nice, friendly transition. And I started on my ass about three years, in three days and yeah, and then cider was a different world and Scion. Here there's a bar in town that fell on one of the best in the country, literally one of the best cider bars in the country. It's really rare to go to a city and find so many examples of ciders in one single bar, which is wild because that's something that happens a lot in Utah.
Speaker 2:Which is wild, Like obviously there's issues of why it isn't a very alcohol friendly state, but then it's like we have so many great breweries and so many great distilleries and so many great cideries. It like doesn't make sense, but I'm glad that it does. I think it's that because of the repression.
Speaker 1:Yep, when you want to do something, you cannot do a half-ass. Yeah, you have to do that full board, with all your passion and make it the best, because then you can break down those barriers of the state imposed to you or the weird laws. Also, the way people look at you when you say, oh, sometimes like, oh, I work in the alcohol industry, you have the looks. Yeah, for the good or for the bad, you have both. There's a nice experiment run in some place where people it's a room with a thousand people, all different occupations, and the person stand up like I am an engineer. How many people look at that person is how much that occupation is interesting. The number two, the top two, is brewmaster or alcohol industry and astronaut. So that is the top two. More, uh, attentions, people. So it's really cool, pretty good for the bed, right, right. So I went to Sion like real, I need to learn everything about cider and I have a month Like, okay, come here, let's drink, let's talk. So it was a month of transition. Then I was working shades in the morning, leaving. Go to Sion, drink two or three ciders, learn. Go to Moes helping them. Help the LA Lauren I can't say her name. Help Lauren to filter or do something so I can learn as well. So it was a month of doing this every day until I become full-time there and then I was like, okay, I actually like cider, it's an interesting beverage. So I started slowly learning more.
Speaker 1:There's a meeting like CBC Craft Brewers Conference. There's a cider con hey, for cider. Yeah, which is so nice. It's a smaller meeting than CBC and you have the same type people. So you're going to see the beer nerds the brewers are the cider makers. You're going to see the me. So you're going to see the beer nerds, the brewers or the cider makers. You're going to see the meager. You're going to see the connoisseurs. You're going to see all those kind of people. But the cider con has one more type of people the farmers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because in a sense, the guy that take care of the farm and grow the apples. Most of the times he's the cider maker. So you have the farmers there. You don't see a barley grower at the CBC. You barely see hop growers, barley growers. You don't see that. You see the seller people selling the barley, selling the hops. But the grower, the farmers, the guy, that's everyday labor. You don't see them At a silicon. You see, you talk to them because it makes a difference when he fertilized the.
Speaker 1:The. The crop will determine if you're gonna be a sweeter or not on the cider how, how level sweetness? Because the nitrogen you gotta impact. So you have so much details that you never pay attention. In beer there's so many variables. In cider apple, it's your main thing, so the farmer is extremely important. So that was a blow blow my mind. I was like, okay, I want to learn more about this. I I was so passionate about when I went there. I'm like I want more, I want to learn more, please. And that was my first idcon in 2023, chicago, uh, 24 was in in. And this year I got a scholarship to go to the Chicago again and not only to be there but also be part of the American Science Association and to do the test of sommelier. Which is the sommelier?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was talking with Sharon about it and she was talking about how you got this certification.
Speaker 1:So that was because the scholarship was able to go and fully supported the mom and I team like, okay, go study, let's go and taste. Insiders all over the world identify our flavors that are different, not only different from beer, but also different from how you explain that and how you verbalize. These terms are different from wine, cider and beer. So we have to understand those terms and now change your mind to those terms. So cider is different, is very different and unique and it's more detailed than beer. I believe that when it comes to finding the taste, finding the tune, taste, everyday operation insider is more laid back because at the end we're gonna filter it. We're gonna kind of filter, sterile filter. So if there's a small chance of small contamination in the tank, no big deal because we use killing yeast. The yeast is going to grow too much, going to kill the other yeast, so that will prevail, we don't have to worry about. And then when you filter that is going to go away. So we have more ways to go around than beer. But when it comes to final product cider, it's more detailed. You have more complexity than few styles of beer. So it also comes to. You can taste difference between an apple that grows in Michigan versus the one that grows in Washington, because there's one thing called the roi, and the soil would different, the sunlight would be different, the fertilization will be different. Also, they're gonna press in different press. If you use a press that will extract a harsh, you're gonna introduce co2, or the old co2 that is already completely different of the juice.
Speaker 1:Now it's selection time, temperature. How are you going to that sweet, not that sweet. It's going to be dry, still sparkling. Are you going to be in a 750 ml bottle? Are you going to be in a can? So much difference for one simple apple. Yeah, and that was what fascinates me. And I even started talking about pairing, pairing cider with food. It's another world. And sometimes you're like, okay, I go to a dinner, oh, we're going to pair this pork chop with this beer. I'm like I wish it was cider. Yeah, so for me it's getting more passion. It's not more, it's different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a different type of passion, especially when you had going from this situation where you're like, oh, I learned a lot, I did a lot, but like something's off, I need change, I need to go somewhere else, and then have this opportunity again come to you and be like, oh wait, this is refreshing, this is a new thing to tackle, there are these new nuances and really find this like harmony in it.
Speaker 1:Let's learn, and that was my passion is always learning. As a scientist, like I want to learn, I want to tweak, I want to bake better, I want to understand the process. And now that I understand the process, I know how it works, how can they make it better or different. So my one I know how it works, how can they make it better or different. So Mountain West was opposite for Shades. So Shades was at the time very normal classic beers and they bring all this crazy Mountain West, if you go there before me it was already some different type of ciders and now I'm trying to make more classic stuff. So it's a little different because it's how the company, it's, it's, it's on the track, not, but it never left my crazy side. Of course, if you go there right now, there's a bloody mary cider on draft. Yeah, why not? It's, it's cider is a bloody mary and it's alcoholic bloody mary already on draft. So if you want to add another shot of vodka, for example, it will be the most alcoholic bloody m in Utah. Why not? Because it's my creativity, let me do it. So let's do it At the same time.
Speaker 1:I want to do the classics. I want to do the slow fermentation, single varietal. If I can get late harvest, low fertilizer apples, I want that juice. I want that juice to ferment very slow, do six months fermentation. Then a nice, non-filtered bottle, 750 ml, corking cage, classic, beautiful. At the same time I want to throw on we make a negroni para aged gin cider with vermouth, uh and and um beaters. So why not? Yeah, making all kind of things, but cider has this flexibility and for me, very similar to the sour beer. Then it pairs well with fruits, it pair well with spices. It can go crazy, it can go classic. So it's so complex, and why not?
Speaker 2:let's, let's play around yeah, might as well have fun with it. Yeah, yeah, that's. It's so fun to hear like the whole journey of it all, of how I mean everything just kind of worked out and now you find this next adventure. That's again like plays to that scientific nature of you being like just giving a new process. I want to learn something, I want to refine it, I want to pull on these levers and really just grow. Um, and especially the point where you're like, yeah, I'll go get my accreditation to to learn even more. And then, but there's also still you're like, but I'm gonna do a bloody mary cider and I'm gonna do that like we're you still gonna have fun and play with that. The.
Speaker 1:Pameli was a nice journey. We were all studying together, a few people to try to get a test. So it's a studying process. We have to learn all the theory. So learn not only how to make a cider, but the process is growing. So we have a lot of orchard knowledge that has to be evolved. You have to have pairing a lot of orchard knowledge that has to be evolved. It has to have pairing, a lot of pairing. So how to pair studies with food, with chocolate, with desserts, stuff like that. And then also the tasting. And that taste was the fun part, because it's a 750 ml bottle.
Speaker 1:I'm going to open that and drink. All by myself, I will get to the end of the third bottle. I'm not going to be able to finish my study of the day. Yes, so we should do it in a group of 10, 7, 5 people. We can go through 7, 10 ciders on that day and study nicely.
Speaker 1:So we partnered with Matt Ostrud. Matt, his last name I cannot pronounce, but Matt is the first pommelier in Utah. Okay, matt, his last name I cannot pronounce, but Matt is the first Pommelier in Utah. Okay, it's partnered with Sion. Okay, me, him, rio, erica and then a few people in my house we all sit down and start studying for the test and that was the best part, because we all sit together against Matt's notes, because he's a pommelier, yeah, we have to get close to what he's writing. So it was the fine-tuning like weeks before the test and we all went to chicago do the test and everybody that studied together the tasting we all pass. That's amazing. That was super cool, um, but it's well, that was phenomenal. So everybody's studying together. We got the certification together. It was super cool no, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:You guys could do it as a team as well, I mean, which makes it more fun, because, again, if you're drinking alone then it's not. I mean you can't do as much, but then it's also not as fun to like, compare and share and talk, and I mean alcohol brings people together. I mean it's a social beverage and so if it's not bringing people together, it's gotta be. I can't imagine be the same experience if it wasn't done that well or done that way all right, it'll be solitary, it'll be probably alcoholic, not that really want um.
Speaker 1:For people that don't know about cider, uh, you should be aware of styles. So there's, cider is not just strong, bullying or orchard sweet stuff. Nice, there's probably more than 25 styles of cider Fruited, botanical, high tannin, high acid, low tannin, low acid, sweet, sparkling, flat. It can be funk, it can be clean, it can be a very nice expression of the single apple Pears. So many styles of pears I'll make with pears Culinary pears, tanic pears, singletree pears, and then other we call fortified ones, so ice ciders, pomo Pomo is a beverage that I never heard about that and most of the people have no idea what pomo is. Pomo is equivalent of port wine for cider. Okay, so it's a fortified cider using apple brandy. So apple brandy and starting'm starting fermenting cider, so basically apple juice. But then it's not just a mix. You have to age that months or years in barrels. So that's a beverage that is so good, it's growing Finally people started getting hands on and it's so, so good that people should start drinking more Pomo's.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And again, it's a new industry that's growing. Luckily, it's the only I think it's the only alcoholic category that's still growing in the US. Everything else is kind of static or going down. It's a new generation, gen Z is coming Low alcohol consumption, more cannabis product being consumed we got it, it's a trend. But more cannabis product being consumed we got it, it's a trend. But it's always like this You're always going to have one or two generations that will be low and then a few years later they will find out that, hey, I miss all those years not drinking this product, so let's start drinking those products again. It's just a phase. I know that what's either is there is here to stay. It's a gluten-free, naturally gluten-free product. It's usually the dry ones that we made in Mountain West. It's low calorie. This is zero sugar, so, yeah, it's a really good beverage.
Speaker 2:More people should try it, and I mean I love going to Mountain West. I mean sitting at the garden there's usually always live music or something going on, especially in the summer. I mean perfect night. I mean sometimes I'll Uber Eats food in, sometimes I'll have a food truck, sometimes I'll breed a board game or something and we're going to start having food. That's right this week.
Speaker 1:Even more reason. Yeah, we're going to have a sandwich and other like small, like a small bites. That's being uh craft by chefs right now. So it's it's going to even matter the garden. It's phenomenal. I love the vibe that that that outdoor space, uh, concerts, as you said, all the time, uh, yarn, it's been a very successful.
Speaker 1:So people go there to tell stories. It's really cool. It just go there to hear stories like this for 10 minutes, 5 minutes, and you can know a lot of people because they bring touchy, very funny stories. So you can meet so many people. So all these events are being held over there, bringing life to that part of the city that's a little forgotten. Yeah, put it this way, marmalade District is growing, but it's still a lot to be discovered. And Moet's there. He's been there forgotten. Yeah, put it this way, marmalade District's growing, but it's still alive to be discovered. And Moet's there. It's been there for 10 years. It's going to be our anniversary this year of 10 years, so there's a lot of special things that we're bringing in. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Come swing by, have a ruby, have a Bloody Mary cider, have whatever tickles your fancy. There's always going to be some classics that we've talked about, some fun things we've talked about, and who knows what else is to come.
Speaker 1:Just one thing I want to bring up. We talk about a small city. I love the one thing that Pete from City Weekly was telling the story that he was in Greece a year ago and he was with his family and he was in the elevator and he's talking to his brother, I think and he heard someone on the back of the elevator say, oh, finally English, I can talk to someone in English. Where are you guys from? And he's like I'm from Salt Lake City. And this guy like oh, I'm Portland, but I know one person from Salt Lake City, a buffalo Like no way, I'm in Greece in the middle of nowhere. And this guy that I meet the only English I've been listening for the past three weeks is a guy from Portland that knows you.
Speaker 2:The one person he knows in Utah, and I often don't know either person I know In Salt Lake City. Oh, even in Greece. It happens everywhere. That's even in Greece. It happens everywhere. That's amazing, marcio. I want to end with the two questions I always ask everybody at the end of each episode. Number one if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about their story and what they're up to, who would you want to hear from?
Speaker 1:one person can bring a few you can name a couple. Of course, I would like to see the guys that start brewing industry here. So there's a few people that, like Dale from Beehive Tampling yeah For sure it's a good name A few people in the industry that brought things live to this area. But also there is a guy. It's going to be hard probably, but we have a Nobel Prize, a Nobel Prize in Salt Lake. Yeah, that would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2:I got to hurry on that one.
Speaker 1:Yes you have to hurry that. For sure I have with him a few times. It's a really great story of how he comes to Salt Lake and how he developed a whole genetic field that changed the world and how he got a Nobel Prize working in Utah, at Salt Lake. He lives here, he lives in the avenues, he loves the city. He's already on this almost 90s, so yeah hurry up yeah.
Speaker 2:Time's not in my favor, nor his, but we'll, yeah, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, him would be really cool to bring in.
Speaker 2:Totally. And then lastly, if people want to find out more information about Mountain West or see what ciders are coming up what's the best place?
Speaker 1:social media, so mount west cider or mount west hard cider, so mount west cider for our instagram, facebook and uh website. Our website just totally new, launched today, oh cool, so updated, ready to go events and everything. So social media is the best place. Or stop by 425 north, 400 West in the Marmalade District where their garden's open. We have the new roof, new room in the front. Even for this heat, if the garden is too hot, don't worry, we have the sunroof, it's in the front. Right now it's 69 degrees. It's really good yeah.
Speaker 2:Cold air-conditioned room.
Speaker 1:Maybe freeze a room cider Exactly cold air conditioned room, maybe for his own cider, exactly, but stop by, or our website, and yeah thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:No, thank you, marcio. It's been fun, to fun to hear your story and hear more about how you got there and I mean the whole journey across the way. But yeah, I will be. I guess I will be there soon because there's an event we're doing with Bookish on, I think it's like August 19th. I'll have to look. Anyway, if you're listening to this, check Instagram, I'll tell you there. But no, I mean, this has been great. Thank you so much. Keep making classic ciders, keep making fun ciders, and who knows what alcoholic beverage you'll end up in next.
Speaker 1:Go make some whiskey, some wines and something who knows we're going to of wine last year. So look for the cans Summit Wine. It's Mount West. Okay, sparkling Rosé, sparkling Brut, and the whole bottles of the Mount West Cellar. Yeah, we have a full line of wine now there we go, you're already doing wine. So now what?
Speaker 2:Sake next who knows. I don't think there's anyone doing that anyway, oh yeah there is, there's one sake, sake, suki.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you're right, she's.
Speaker 2:They're making really good sake utah never ceases to amaze me. There's always something, there's always something I don't know about happening. Uh yeah, no thanks, bernard, that was a stick here, so good.
