S2, E2: Rocksteady Bodyworks - Jessa Munion & Jeff Roche

A phone call during 9/11. A train ride west. A splitboard cut by hand and a whiteboard full of climbs. That’s the unlikely path that led Jessa Munion and Jeff Roche to build Rocksteady Body Works, a place where movement isn’t a trend—it’s medicine—and wellness is a practice you live, not a product you buy.

We trace Jessa’s pivot from DC consulting to yoga leadership in Park City, and the moment she chose massage therapy to deepen the work from the mat to the nervous system. Jeff brings the alpine lens: route finding, consequence, and clean decision-making born in the mountains, then applied to spreadsheets, space design, and a team culture that actually breathes. Together, they turned a hidden Holladay corner into a provider-first studio, blending deep tissue manual therapy, precision Pilates, and hands-on education that turns practitioners into mentors and clients into strong, self-aware movers.

The story widens from studio walls to valley-wide stewardship. We dig into the Great Salt Lake as a complex system demanding value-chain thinking and impact networks, not quick fixes. We personify the lake to change the tone—from talking points to responsibility—and lay out why material action beats marginal gestures. Then we tackle the Little Cottonwood gondola debate with a simple premise: it’s a flow problem. We sketch a people-first alternative—dynamic lanes, bus-priority corridors, and distributed transit hubs—that scales access without scarring an iconic canyon or sinking public funds into a 45-minute ride most won’t take.

What emerges is a blueprint you can feel. Craft over shortcuts. Mentorship over noise. Culture over slogans. If you care about building a resilient body, a stronger community, and a smarter city, this conversation will meet you where you move—and push you a step further.

If this resonated, follow the journey, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more people find thoughtful, locally rooted conversations like this one. Subscribe for more stories at the intersection of movement, mentorship, and the mountains we love.

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Transcript

Host Intro And Guests’ Origins

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Whole journey out west started with me being on the phone with the World Trade Towers when they collapsed in 2001. It's palpable and it's life-altering to have this type of access to nature.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

So as soon as I was old enough to kind of start voyaging out on my own, I started getting the hell across the Mississippi because out west was it was wild, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

I grew up global which expanded my horizons because I was literally traveling around the world, seeing the world through different eyes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Fast forward to 2012, like I was having a good go in Portland, but my life kind of just blew up in 2012. I got recruited to come here, Eric. I really came here to ride PAL and I came here to climb. Even today, it's mecca for climbers, man. If you're a climber, it's a rite of passage to get to walk those walls and work in that building.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

And I had already decided that falling in love was not hard to do. Finding a person and a partner who you could talk with, live with, and build a life together was.

Make It Exist, Then Make It Better

SPEAKER_00 1:46

You know, I already had a couple businesses under my belt. I started her on a just a spreadsheet model to run her business. And from there, we we just continued to outgrow locations. The stakes got higher. It's like Vegas. You gotta put money in the game to make money.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

What is up everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, Eric Nilsson. Now, this week we are joined by Jessa Munyan and Jeff Roche. Now, Jessa and Jeff started a business called Rocksteady Body Works, based in Holiday. It is both a place of practice and education around bodyworks and Pilates. While Bodyworks has built an amazing community around their practice of Pilates and Bodyworks, both Jessa and Jeff have amazing backgrounds of how they found themselves here in the Salt Lake Valley. From Jessa traveling around the world, uh working in consulting in DC until after 9-11 pushed her to rethink about what she wanted to do with her life. And likewise with Jeff finding himself growing up in Michigan to finding himself in Alaska through Portland and then found himself here after chasing some of the best snow and best places to rock climb. But two great people who have found themselves cemented here in Salt Lake City, love the community, love the outdoors, and want to do the best that they can to protect it. So let's jump into it. I think this is one you're all gonna enjoy, but I'll see you on the other side and enjoy the conversation with Jessa and Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Um, I was just trying to pull up a little graphic I love where it's like make it exer make it exist first.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Make it better.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

And I mean, and I'm sure both of you can attest to it in the various aspects of the things that you've built and created. Like it's funny to talk to people. Um, because like I'm in I'm 35 in my mid-30s, and there's kind of like these two paths that a lot of people in my world have done. There's the people who have started to do something or have done something, and then there's the people it's like, oh, well, I have this idea or I think it'd be nice, or like it's a very common. Maybe one day it's like, hey, if you never like take that one step, it never will. It's like and it's always the same as like getting a dog or having kids, like, well, we're waiting for the perfect moment. Like, listen, sweetheart, those don't exist.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

They don't. And I mean, you just have to get it out of your head on paper in real life and get going. Absolutely. Agreed. Thinking, concept, idea has to hit matter and interact in the physical world.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Totally. Yeah. And then next thing you know, like when you start something, people will usually not like celebrate you it at the beginning. It's like, oh, you're trying this. Like, not a good idea. There's all this risk. Why would you do that? And like, thank you for showing me how you approach this and how your anxiety jumps in. But I'm gonna go do it. And then all of a sudden it reaches the point of inflection where becomes something, and then they'll champion you and you're like, hmm, yeah. Time goes by no matter what. Leadership is a thankless job, is what we say. Totally. It's just how it is. And like, I mean, it's probably the same way where I mean, once something becomes something, it's like, oh, this is like overnight success, right? That's how this game's like, oh no, ten years, oh no. Takes takes so much time, yeah. But no, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk to you both today because I was talking to Jeff a little bit when we met up. Yeah, we roll it on. Are we rolling on the tape here? Oh, yeah. Okay. Just let it and chat. Oh, yeah. And there's never I don't like doing uh, oh right, everybody now. But I'm enjoying that.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

That's a zero call.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

That makes cool to just like rip all of my long hair on the side because there's like, yeah, it says a great lead in. Chris Caluse did the normal cast back in the day at the loft when we had it. Yeah, he's an amazing podcaster. He's a climbing, kind of iconic figure that tells history. Yeah, and um, he does a set.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, I typically like to just I mean warm people up because no one's ever like ready to be like, are you ready to talk about the details of your life in chronological order and how it impacts the community?

SPEAKER_03 5:16

I know, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So it takes a little, I mean it's a little, and I'm so used to it. I can and I'm curious enough that I can usually just jump into any conversation. And I can even tell, like in social conversations, when like my podcaster brain comes on, well, they'll say something unique and be like, How'd you start doing that? Tell me about this. How my how does it align to your own personal journey? Got it.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

Jeff always says that interesting people are interested, and it always helps me flip from talking to asking. Yeah, I think it's just such a powerful way to really connect with people.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

So yeah, like one conversation I had uh, I guess it's like a year and a half ago now, was with Micah Christensen, who's like the third generation art dealer at Anthony's Fine Art at Antiques, um, on third, south, and fifth ish, east, sixth east, around there. And he said, I mean, he has a master's in art, PhD in art. And one phrase that he used that I liked is um, because he grew up in the uh, I mean, is his father being an art collector. So he's like, Oh, I know this, I could do this, then goes and learns about it. He's like, Oh, that was when my uh my knowledge became measured. And then there's I mean, there's the whole aspect of like the oh my gosh, the doing what's the uh philosophy of like the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Oh, like then Buddhism, like in our mind?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Something then's cruder. Anyway, it'll come to me. But that's like when he's like, Oh, I now know how much I knew and how much I know. And I've realized that in my own interactions where if I'm having a conversation with someone, there's times I'm like either connecting or teaching, but then I'll be like, oh, time to turn like flip into learning mode, like something that's right that I can learn from you. Yeah. So now that's what I want to have, is more of like those learning moments. Because like again, it's it goes back to that point of being interested. Yeah, I'd rather be interested in something than be like, now let me just continue to tell you about me and talk at you. Like nobody likes that experience. No, yeah. So totally agree. Um, let me say well, yeah, remind me how you spell sent set say your last name. It's either Munion or Munion.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Munion.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Okay. That's what I thought, but I didn't want to call you like an onion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

My little girl and I were talking about that because she doesn't like her little nickname at school.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

She was like, So sad they could be a nickname. And I was like, Well, people used to call me Jessica Onion Munion, and she was like, that's hysterical. Just started laughing.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I was like, one day you'll laugh about it.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

One day, Stone, it'll be funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Uh it's okay. I was a chubby kid growing up, so I just got made fun of. I didn't have a name, I just got called fat.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Dude.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

It's brutal.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

So much more body positivity now, you know. But yeah, so I'm Jess Munyan and this is Jeff Roach. And I think for me, my world was already pretty established. I'm a practitioner, and and you know, my first last name was already recognized, so we kind of made the choice to just leave that intact. Um yeah, because it spent years building it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah. And the last thing you want to do is like, all right, we're gonna not necessarily like rebrand, but and then it's a little bit of a code switch to people.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

I think it is a rebrand when you are a practitioner that people follow, like Jessica Munny and Jessa Roach.

Names, Identity, And Professional Cred

SPEAKER_00 8:07

It's a name is Yeah, but I think it's also about identity, man. Like your name is like that's your name. That's your given. And um I think you know, when people talk about, you know, feminism or masculinity, it's like I think it's empowering to hold your name in the world. Like I hope our daughter one day just carries the name you know, she finds a partner one day because um but going back to hers is that Jessa was so established for so long that it it would have been really confusing to go change your last name and I just had nothing on it, you know. She is who she is, and I wanted to continue to be that person.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Totally. I mean, you go back to the classic book of like how to win friends and influence people, the best way you can win friends and influence people is remember their name. It's the it's our favorite noise to hear, yeah, no matter who we are.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Cool. Well, I'm excited to hear about the story of Rocksteady because like I'm someone who, if someone comes to me and comes from a business that there's a lot of them, the first question I'll always ask is like, what makes you different or why should it be you to represent all of them? And so I I mean, talked to Jeff about that when we first talked about it. And I mean, his re his, he mean he told me about you, told me a little more about Rocksteady, but then it wasn't until I experienced it that I was like, oh, this is much different and so much more of a community. But then also hearing like the tidbits of the journey along the way, which I'm excited to jump into more to hear how it's all come together because it's been not just, I mean, you opened a thing six months ago and it's been great, but it's been this journey of your own personal practitioner journey. Um, and then also uh bringing Jeff in and having him along in that journey and using his strengths to really build something special together.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And neither of you are from here, but have found so much community and joy and for lack of a better term, home in in the Salt Lake area and had become passionate about so many things around here. I was excited to talk about. But I mean, it sounds like you, Jessa, grew up bouncing around all over the place. But what made you want to land here? Um, and what was so special about I mean Salt Lake slash Utah that attracted you the most?

Why Rocksteady Feels Different

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Uh great question. Yep. I did grow up global in many different continents and countries. And I'll try to give a brief answer, but the the whole journey out west started with me being on the phone with the World Trade Towers when they collapsed in 2001. I was sitting two blocks from the White House at my consulting firm. I worked with DC Defense and New York Finance. And in my early years of a career, to have that moment occur was a huge pivot point for me in my capacity to recognize this big dissonance and gap between what we're asked to do at businesses and work and what we're feeling and dealing with as humans. And so within a few months of that, I took a sabbatical and I went out west. I went to Vale, Colorado. I'd never been before, I'd never seen mountains or snow growing up in Africa and Asia, that wasn't a thing. And um yeah, I fell in love with the healing power of moving outside on my snowboard in nature, and that, you know, year sabbatical, seven years flew by.

Jessa’s 9/11 Pivot And Westward Move

SPEAKER_01 11:14

It's I always love that story because like when I was in college, I was one of the first Lyft drivers in Salt Lake. And it was wild to talk to people. And as you can imagine, of me being in a car with someone, lots of conversations and the amount of time, and I was so like uh ignorant of so much of Salt Lake and why people moved here. Cause like growing up, I would go skiing. My grandpa would be the one to say his like four or five same jokes to the people on the chair like um, but then I like would never talk to people, go on my mission, come home, start talking to people more. I'm like, oh wait, like not a single person I've talked to in the last three weeks has been from here. Yeah. And then as I was a lift driver, I'd be like, oh, like what brought you here to be, oh, I came for a wedding and never left. I came on a vacation and never left. I needed to go find something new or find like myself in the world I was in and and found that. And I like growing up in Salt Lake before honestly, before I like really moved back to Salt Lake after living in Seattle, like I didn't understand that. Cause like I didn't I even growing up in the avenues, it's like I was hiking up in the foothills or going up to Twin Peaks or spending time on like BST. But it was interesting. I was walking uh with my girlfriend, my dogs, um, up above the avenues, and we both like she just kind of stopped. And I like stopped too. Like it was so quiet, so tranquil, but yet like could see Salt Lake, we're less than 10 minutes away from downtown.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

And people don't, especially if you're from here and born and raised here, like you take it for granted. And then it's fun to spend time with people who move here because they don't take it for granted and there's this whole energy about it.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah. But once you feel it, it's it's it's palpable and it's life-altering to have this type of access to nature. Uh, because you know, as a wellness practitioner, and what I was needing at that time was an opportunity to integrate some of those huge life experiences while still keeping my feet on the ground. And so um, moving outside in nature is just intrinsically medicinal. And the science of well-being starts to teach us why we need to be in connection with nature. And so um, from Vail, I ended up deepening into a yoga practice that allowed me to connect with the founder of the Baptiste Institute, which is a world-renowned yoga institute that's headquartered in Park City.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

So I came out here to work at that yoga institute with Baron.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And um was there ever a moment where because again, like you have this traumatic experience where you're like, I need to go figure something out because it isn't it right now. Yeah. I mean, what was that connecting point between I'm gonna take a sabbatical and go west and then I want to start this practice or I want to learn more about this?

SPEAKER_04 14:20

I think moving here was a natural part of my own healing process. Cool. And um a couple factors were hugely impactful. So getting here was so grounding. It's one of the first places that compared to Vale, people had always told me it was a truck stop. And I was like, you don't know. You know, moving here in Park City felt like a real town, Salt Lake felt like a real place, and I kind of had this uh sense for the first time that this had all the elements I needed and I could stay here.

SPEAKER_05 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

But I am gonna say that meeting this one was really powerful in terms of our backgrounds and what created the opportunity for us to continue to explore. So I attended an Ivy Legal Women's College, and I really um coming from the East Coast and working from a consulting firm in DC, becoming a yoga teacher and a massage therapist, I personally had a lot of um inherited beliefs about like what was a respectful field.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah. I mean, those are polar opposite sides of that spectrum.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Yeah. What am I allowed to do? What's professionally relevant, what's just for fun. And um, Jeff is one of the first persons or people who really looked at me, saw me, and then treated me with such respect and saw more that I could accomplish than I would have thought of.

Nature As Medicine And Yoga Leadership

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah. So I mean, which is I mean huge in a partner. Last thing you want to do is have a partner. It's like, oh, so you're still doing your thing. Oh, that's cute. Like, when are you like when are you gonna go back to consulting? When are you gonna go do like something that because like that's one thing that I've learned a lot of in myself over the past few years is when it boils down to it, nobody fucking cares. Like we all have these like little perceptions of how people think about us, how we are perceived in society, what people think when we tell them what we do, and like this like social equity in it all, let's call it that. But in reality, like no one's keeping score, no one's watching, and any of these thoughts that we have, it's usually our own um perceptions personified in other people. We're projecting it, what other people say. Because unless someone actually directly tells you, it's all just an assumption and you don't actually really know. But when you can flip it on its head and be like, oh, well, actually, this is what I want to do. I know who I am, I know my values, I know my strengths, I know what makes me happy, what I need to be the best version of myself, and this fits that, that's when magic happens. Because then once you start doing being your true self and doing those things, the right people show up, the right opportunities show up, which brings back to you being more of yourself because this new confidence happens. And all of a sudden this flywheel starts to happen, which I would argue if if you weren't living your life in that way, Jeff probably wouldn't have recognized all of these things in you and your paths wouldn't have come together.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Absolutely. I I think for me, I see everything through the lens of wellness. And uh what brought me here was that perpetual journey of self-discovery, which is one of the principles that we hold tight at Rocks Study, is self-discovery is an active practice of curiously reflecting on yourself with an orientation of service to humanity through through the practice of getting to know yourself better and understanding where are you aligned, where do you feel energy, what do you have to give? And um, I think the Salt Lake environment just felt really conducive to my overall well-being. And what I saw was an opportunity to start to express skill sets in a certain way. Um so I think opening the practice was really just a very natural organic evolution that um wellness to us is all about connection, you know, interconnection inside of oneself and then interdependency. And um yeah, it was here in Salt Lake learning those things and meeting Jeff that really kind of opened the door. We started back country skiing together and partnership just really started to present um an incubator, a thought incubator space, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

That's where it all starts.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Uh before we jump over to Jeff and kind of what brought him here, I mean, so you come here, you go to Park City, this Baptiste Institute, where you're learning yoga, uh uh, and then that transitioned into massage therapy and then your practice. Um, I mean, anything you mean to share there as far as like that journey goes, or is it mostly just kind of a recession of that?

SPEAKER_04 18:36

I think one thing that can happen with the yoga and the massage is that um I think it can be for me what probably is a surprise to people is I did go to an Ivy League college. I am a very driven, ambitious, thought-focused person. My work in Vail was I've I've always maintained a business um focus and development while having these wellness practices. So when I came to Park City, it was because I was offered a leadership role at this privately held, independent, incredibly successful yoga institute, not a yoga studio serving hundreds of people in a valley, but a world-renowned entity that travels and offers teachings all around the world, reaching thousands, if not millions, of people. And Baron Baptiste, the founder of that organization, was both a businessman and a person who had been practicing wellness from birth. And that resonated with me because my dad started me on a journey of self-inquiry and meditation and mindfulness and prayer and um really presenced wellness my whole life. So I think the opportunity to develop and start to apply my business acumen in a wellness setting with an institute and a person who gave me a unique opportunity with a lot of trust and a lot of autonomy to try to try shit, to do things. Yes. And so it was just in Park City, I was snowboarding and um, you know, hiring people and creating rules and then going to Mexico and meditating and doing yoga for 10 days. It was so high vibe. It was so high vibe. Yeah, it was really, really cool. Um, but I think the style of yoga really focused on empowerment, agency, and transformation. And I think those qualities are very akin to wellness, which is takes work to really stand in and authentically assess who you are, and then to have the courage to create something with that instead of getting bowed over or um pushed along by the forces of mediocrity or what's common. And so those things really lit me up. And at a certain point, I aspired for more. And I realized there was a ceiling at that organization. And so it was this, you know, false summit to use language that I love from Jeff's world, because you set your sights on this path and you think it's the top. And when you get there, what I found out was who I had evolved into. I really had so much uh from so much more. And I had a lot of opinions about how things should go. And I, you know, I was ready to lead something. And so that's the point that I pivoted and uh decided to go pursue massage therapy school. And it was when I went to massage therapy school, is when the idea of a practice opened up. Yoga was a pathway I was on. However, a practice of wellness is much larger than that. And with my global experience in Asia and Africa, the um, you know, the fascinating world of how people care for themselves, whether it's through acupuncture or shiatsu, on sends in Japan. That's where once I got bodywork in the mix, that became very fascinating, very deep. And I had an awareness that there was a lot you can do beyond just one modality.

False Summits And Choosing Massage School

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Well, and also like kudos to you on that, because so many people get so beholden to one for using the same metaphor of like a summit. This is a summit I want to get to. I don't really necessarily care as much about the journey as I care about this one milestone, this this peak, this one thing that I'm beholden to. And then they get there and it's like, I don't know what to do, or I'm gonna stay here because it's what I've always wanted. And I've seen so many people in my own life reach uh, I mean, the one I saw the most common was in college. I mean, I'd see people be like, I want to get straight A's, I'm gonna get a trip, like three bachelor's degrees, and then they do it, and it's like, oh, I don't know what's next. But because I was so beholden on this. So then realized that, I mean, again, and so much as a part of the practice of knowing yourself, knowing your journey and being there for yourself, showing up for yourself, which is, I mean, showing up is the foundation of any sort of relationship. And a lot of people forget that it's also part of our own relationship, is showing up for ourselves. Yep. To be like, oh, there's more than I want. This has hit its peak. This is right. And now this opened up the door to really bring everything together from your whole experience of your life up to that point.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Yeah. And I think with like the love of movement in the mountains is like a huge anchor for us. The love of nature. And when we talk about setting vision and goals or like getting a sense of what you're gonna do, I think so many people operate in the echo chamber of their own mind and fail to get into that co-creation, that co-creative space where you recognize you are interfacing with reality, which is much larger than you. When we're out in the backcountry, you know, and I've learned all of this from Jeff, you're in a conversation with the snowpack, with the sun angle, with the wind, the temperature. And these aren't factors you can ignore. You really need to know and communicate and connect with what's happening out there in the world around you. So for us, I think we view and I view my life and my work as a perpetual unfolding of that dynamic conversation between who I am and what I can offer and what the world around me is presenting. And it from that approach, there's always possibility and there's always a new place to head to. And that is how I think about wellness too for each person. We say you were born to move, and there's always a way to move towards wellness as a point, as a lighthouse from wherever you are, because life is dynamic and you know it's not a linear trajectory like so many of us that get a little locked in like rational left brain like to pretend.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah. It's much more of a journey than a destination. Totally. It changes so much.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

But I'll jump over to Jeff because I know that I mean, you're from Portland area and have like such a unique background. But I mean, talk to me a little bit about the I mean, everything that led up to you being like, you know what? The snow in Salt Lake sounds a lot better than being up here.

Meeting Jeff: Splitboards, Mentors, And Match

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, so actually I'm I'm born and raised in Flint, Michigan. Okay. Uh home of the Flintstones, home of the the water crisis. Wait, Flintstones is from Flint, Michigan? Well, no, I'm talking about the Flintstones and the 2001 national championship. I'm talking about going back to Mateen Klee, I was like Charlie Dell. I thought I just had like my OG, OG basketball. But so I grew up Midwest upbringing where we never crossed the Mississippi. And so as soon as I was old enough to kind of start voyaging out on my own, I started getting the hell across the Mississippi because out west was it was wild, man. We're talking we're back in you know the year 99, 2000. And so one way or another, I ended up on a boat in um Alaska working boats for summer. And on my last day on that boat, I met this man on the bow of the boat, and uh his name was David Sawyer. And this guy and I just dropped into like a two, three-hour conversation on the bow of the boat, and uh we became really good friends that day. And uh we stayed in touch as I was finishing college, and I sent him an email kind of maybe in my uh I did a management philosophy paper on him, and then I sent him an email um where I said, Hey, how's Portland? Like, what's the deal, man? Because he had moved to Portland from Alaska because he was he was a executive coach with BP Amical on a merger that was going on Alaska, and then he was going to Portland. And he wrote me back, and he wrote me back something that really was formative to me. And what he said was um, Roach, signs of intelligent life everywhere, come quick. And so I uh I moved out on a train months later to Portland, and I stayed there for 12 12 years, kind of working in the energy industry and in financial consulting, and uh had a really amazing community and got to be part of Portland when it was uh a really we're we're talking about 2002 to 2012, so really good years in that town, like it was happening and the advent of the poor over. Yeah, this was this was like pre-Portlandia, like second wave is coming its way. No, dude, like it was glorious, and and all my people were there. I brought a lot of my my friends from back away. And so either way, you know, as that was going on, I started getting recruited to Salt Lake City. I got recruited to come here, Eric. For what like serious, like well, what where are those recruiting come from? I got I got recruited by by my my brother in arms, my chosen brother Brad Hutchison, who lived here. So Brad Hutchison is a very well-known climber in this community, uh very well-known guy in the momentum climbing community. He's a he's a he's a really great mentor and advocate to young climbers at Momentum Climbing Gym. And um Brad started being like, he had moved here to work at Black Diamond Equipment. And he's like, You gotta get here, man. You gotta be here. Well, fast forward to 2012, like I was having a good go in Portland, but my life kind of just blew up in 2012 in the spring. Like lots of things happened that were not sweet all at once. I don't know how to kind of go blow by blow. But I talked to David Sawyer and he just said, Roach, it's okay to leave, it's okay to move on. And so I uh I kind of took that blessing and I I moved out to port Salt Lake City in in the fall of 2012 to start new. And uh I really came here to ride POW and I came here to climb, and I came here to work at Black Diamond Equipment because at that time and years before, and even today, it it's mecca for climbers, man. If you're a climber, it's a rite of passage to get to walk those walls and work in a building. And and I got to work under Peter Metcalf and some really wonderful people, and and that's that's why I came here. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

And what I mean, what led up to you guys eventually having your paths cross and end up in the backcountry together, which is always like a fun part of so many of these, like the stories of people meeting people. It usually has to do with something being around.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Uh backcountry skiing. Yeah. Oh Jesus Christ, man. This is a good one. So, yeah. I mean, so when we started dating, she was like, I backcountry ski, I got a split board. And so I was like, Okay, I'll take it backcountry skiing. Because I was an experienced mountaineer at this point. Like I'd been alpine climbing for years, like I was a well-versed person in the mountains. I was deep into the craft. And so uh, you know, streetwear park girl shows up on the scene with her like homemade cut split board, and all her getup is like all oakly and all kinds of wild stuff.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

And um I was like park snowboarder girl from Vale. I had friends who were pro snowboarders, so I got all their oakly hand-me-down, huge goggles. I thought backcountry skiing start somewhere. You do. I thought backcountry skiing was like, let's tour up the mountain, you know, the ski hill before the chairs open.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, but then so we started when we started riding together, it was definitely like, you know, a mentor kind of student relationship because she just she was eager, but she didn't know it yet, right? But it's like she's obviously an incredibly intelligent woman, so it's like, okay, let's just stay with it and strong athlete. So we just put in the work together as a as a team and it was pre-kids and stuff. So um we just put lots of time in, and and Jessa became a really good backcountry rider where she's the only gal going out with real hitters, man. Like I used to ride with Martine Linden, who's a well-known guy, like Alex Hamlin, like Mike Will, like really strong riders, and we did cool stuff.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Yeah, I think Jeff's time in Portland, the thing that, and and from Alaska, the big thing that drew the him out west was the mountains. And that is something that appealed to me was um, you know, growing up global and living in Asia for a long time, having the family that I had, spiritual development, uh, spiritual philosophy, mindfulness, self-development were all really key topics my whole life. I read that how to win friends when I was 12. Like that was forced reading by my dad. That wasn't optional. But um, so this one, I think the mindset of a climber from the what I was learning about wellness conceptually from yoga and meditation, climbers or alpine people concretely embody it so much more powerfully. I mean, when you're climbing in the mountains and your life is quite literally on the line that is held by your partner, the level of honesty and self-assessment that's required is insane. So I always resonated with him for that. But the way we met was kind of funny because he had come here to Salt Lake for his thing. I was up in Park City. And um I don't know if match.com is still a thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Definitely is.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Okay. But so he had reached out to me on match.com. I was treating dating the way I treat a lot of things, which is I had an Excel spreadsheet with 30 weighted categories. Yes. I had an objected and subjective file. I was very I had written out what I was looking for, what I wanted in my life to look like. And I had already decided that falling in love was not hard to do. Finding a person and a partner who you could talk with, live with, and build a life together was. So when he first reached out, I was like, Do you think that's 10 out of 100 on my Excel table of them?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I literally was like, I guess I didn't register.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Well, I was like, I'm full. He wrote me a nice email. I was like, I'm full, I'll reach out to you later. And then what happened is that fella, but then I was done dating these other guys. I was on match.com looking and I found him, but I didn't make the connect. It was him. So I reached out to him and I was like, hey, I'm Jessa. And then he kind of picked up that, oh, he don't reach out to me. I wasn't getting it. So we um he responded to the first email that he had sent me for our first date. And so at that point I realized, oh, he had found me. I had found him. We went on our first date, and then like, I don't know, six dates in, I was I was on a fast track, you know. I'm I'm I wasn't about falling in love and like having a good time. I was like, where's this going? Are you coming with me or are you on not?

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

Because move down the bench, buddy. And so there was this evening that I was like really considering whether I thought this person was ready for what I was ready for. Um, and then we were sitting on the couch in this house, just like this. I was considering whether we're gonna nix this, and he gets a phone call from his friend Kevin, and he's like, Congratulations, Kevin. I'm so happy for you and Anne. And then I get a phone call from Ann, and I'm like, Congratulations, Ann, I'm so happy for you and Kevin, and unbeknownst to us, his dear lifelong friend and my good friend were engaged. And so a few months later, we're sitting at their engagement party, and this one looks at me and says, if I hadn't met you, if I hadn't already met you, we'd be meeting tonight for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

So, you know, pretty wild story, right? Yeah. Wild.

Building A Life Vs Falling In Love

SPEAKER_04 33:17

Wild. I mean, meant to be like confluence, synchrodestiny, whatever. You know, for me, those kind of things, like it just those touch points made for some connection. And then that's when we started skiing together. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. I always love when those happen. Like, oh, I could share like 20 stories, but it's it's fun, like, because again, I agree with you. Like, falling in love is easy, but being like, can we build a life together? Do we align in our values how we want to spend time, hard work, especially like rearing children and everything that goes into it, like that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Like, like dating is easy, marriage is a hell of a ride.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

And it it takes a certain experience with that. But then it's like so it's like it's fun to you have these like different points along it of uh like the the the initial touch point being like, well, you don't fit in my spreadsheet. No, thank you, not gonna respond. And then all of a sudden, maybe and he's like, Well, actually, funny you should mention that to the couch, to the engagement party. But then also moving into I mean, starting a business together. I mean, talk to me about how you have Jeff with this like business acumen, has done so many things, had these experiences, you've had this journey. I mean, talk to me about how those first like came together where you're all like, listen, let's let's actually build something special here.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah. I mean, it was slow at first. So it was like, um, you know, I already had a couple businesses under my belt. Um, and so when she had the idea for Rocksteady, you know, I started her on a just a spreadsheet model to run her business and she ran it, and then I taught her how to do her books and stuff, and then it we went from one office to the next and just success started happening, and then all of a sudden we switched over to QuickBooks. And then from there we uh we just continued to outgrow locations and we just had to keep uh organically uh putting the stakes got higher. And it's one of those things that you it's like Vegas, you gotta you gotta put money in the game to make money. And so you we just had to start kind of throwing our capital in the game to capitalize the business and let it become what it could be.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah, we gotta fuel the fire.

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Okay, so this is um That's where we're different.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I speak differently.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Well, I just kind of think that um the world of wellness that I deal with is primarily one's internal state.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

Yeah.

From Spreadsheet To Studio: Rocksteady Starts

SPEAKER_04 35:38

And like you were saying with perceptions and projection, how do you really get to know a person? You know? Um, and so so what I'm gonna say here is that this one is way humble. So for me, I grew up global, which expanded my horizons because I was literally traveling around the world, seeing the world through different eyes. And um, this one grew up in a really small town in Michigan and of his own accord decided to expand and moved, went to Alaska across the country, did all of this, and it was all tethered to climbing and adventuring and moving um his body into these positions and spaces where backcountry ski and climbing, it's not just like you're an athlete. These are heady things. There is situations of consequence. Your literal life is on the line. You have to have a very advanced set of navigation, communication, tool management, like everything you would think of for business was already being applied. And you also need vision and imagination and creation, creativity. Oh, yeah. And you have to be willing to live outside the norm because going and climbing a mountain, you know, and climbing is time intensive. Yep. So I think what happened is that um watching us move outside, backcountry skiing is a lot like running a business. You've got these like really intense details that you can't skip. You need your skins, you need your headlight, you need your, you need your four layers, you need your light gloves, you need a lot of equipment and a lot of gear. You need to organize and stash really well. You have to assess a lot of information, and it's all in service to some big line. Now, this man has vision. Like getting out in the backcountry, trying to pick a line to ski a good one is hard. It's not set for you. That's the thing about us. It's not set for us. Like you were saying. Um set for you is a track that's already created. Backcountry is white space. You're choosing your own mind.

SPEAKER_05 37:41

White canvas.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Blank canvas. And if you want someone to choose a if you want to ski a good line, follow this one. This guy's vision and capacity to look at the terrain and select the optimal course is insane. So I think what I saw watching him navigate the world was like this deep self self-confidence that isn't that is truly based in self-assessment, honest self-assessment. And um, when we started skiing that way, and then the conversations that are required, this one is really level, really candid, really truthful, really transparent. I often was offended. I often am offended, you know, uh, because he tells the truth.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

And um so when I saw those characteristics arise, and then the other thing is like this one had a huge whiteboard. So at this time when we were dating and we were exploring the mountains together, I was still running the Baptiste Institute. And so I was working really closely with the executives at Lululemon through Suzanne Conrad, who's the who was the director of possibility at Lululemon at the time. And um, so so she was in charge of leadership development internally and had our yoga institute come in to deliver these intense three to five day wellness retreats. Because remember, for us, yoga was a tool for self-discovery and transformation and empowerment. And we were delivering it to a huge team of Lululemon executives to help them deter to help them drop into whole-bodiedness for um application at work. And um, so with Suzanne, I really started to learn a new integrated way of manifesting, which isn't really a use a word I use, but vision, vision and goals. And so this guy had always has a whiteboard. And if you're a climber or you're an alpinist, you have vision because it takes oftentimes years to develop the capacities and the skills required to hit the climb you want. So he had his objectives on the board. And I was like, oh, I have my 30-point weighted scale. You have your whiteboard with your objectives. And you know what? We fail. I've failed through many relationships quick. And when you're climbing, like you, you're gonna there's a couple of climbs where this one worked for five years plus to do the climb. And so when I saw that, and then I told him I wanted to go to massage therapy school, and he just the the amount of confidence he had, and it wasn't bluster, it was based on his assessment of me, it was so powerful, and then his capacity to take ideas that I have and then use his financial acumen because he started at Pricewater House Cooper's, and then at 26, he was like peace. I'm gonna go do my own thing and do this same skill set while I travel Italy. Then he can take that and he presented a spreadsheet. It but a spreadsheet that shows you what your idea will financially generate is different.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Love a good financial model.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Love a good financial model.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

It's a business model, if I use my terms.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yes. And like, and that's where I'm at, like, because like I love a spreadsheet because it helps me like there's so many tools that we can use as humans to help us. Let me back up a little bit. Humans are really good about taking things and making them an extension of our lives. Um, I mean, snowboarding and skiing is a great example. We put on boots, it becomes an extension of us, things that we can do. And an Excel spreadsheet is no reason to say, is like an extension of like your brain, of giving it a blank canvas to be able to put thoughts down and project things out and really put like numerical values to things. So I always I will always love that pragmatic part of a spreadsheet, no matter what happens in my life.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

To excel, man.

Backcountry Lessons For Business

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Power to Excel. Um, so you I love that you guys have these, I mean, similar experiences of again, you were in consulting and in government, you were in PwC, both of you had these experiences like, I don't want to do this, but it's been part of your journey that was foundational because like I don't think of business as like the primary thing of anything. Business is a uh engine or a motive that can get you to have other things. There has to be something else. Like business in itself is nothing, but business when applied to wellness can start a practice. Business when applied to uh I mean, even like a passion like skiing can lead to guiding or hardware. Like there's so many other things. Like it's an avenue, not necessarily a core principle within itself. So I love that you guys have these similar foundations, but then also these complementing personality traits that really come together to really make something special.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

And both, I mean, we can talk about Rocksteady and part of that all day, but I'm sure that's like the tip of the iceberg of how the rest of your life is shaped on everything else on top of that. But I mean, going into the Rocksteady side of things, I mean, you've been very intentional about creating this business because you've had such a unique life and all of these factors that have come into a way.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

How has that played the key part in making Rocksteady what it is today and what it's become?

Designing The Space And Holiday Hub

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Okay, great. So I think what we have, um, some of these, some of the worldliness that Jeff and I have, this um idea of being a global citizen, really come into play. Rocksteady, um, even as we've been talking about spreadsheets and backcountry movement, um ideas and the details that support it, there's this premise of like whole brain. And I was just thinking how so often people still kind of segue and silo into uh not being whole brained or whole-bodied. So in yoga or in wellness world, there's a lot of times this idea of people being kind of woo or out there, and people stay going left or right as opposed to coming into total wholeness. If that makes sense. So Rock City is a really integrated wellness practice that hones and centers um all aspects of being well. Wellness also can get siloed into being something relaxing or something luxurious and what or something really soothing. And for us, we know that huge, hard, heavy, intense endurance and output is wellness. So I think we have um a deep foundation in you could say we offer bodywork and Pilates. What we offer is movement as medicine. We offer a place where self-discovery is explored through the practices we offer that help an individual bring balance to their brain, balance to their body. And it is in order so that they can go out and bring balance to everything they do in the world. And our core values include being of service to humanity. So when I think about what the world in general needs, at least it needs less division and more uh capacity to offer, to operate like the body does. The human body is this complex yet simple system that shares one global currency called blood. And that global currency is effortlessly and instantly distributed equally across every cell of every system in that body. It shares the same waste management system of your lymph and immune system. All that said, with those global currencies that are instantly transferred, you also have very specific hyper-local cells doing exactly what they need to do. And should something happen and you're eating your burger and then fight or flight shows up, the digestive system, like the body is so unified that it will move beyond its own personal preference. Digestion will shut down so that blood can get diverted to your limbs, right? So there's this there's this litmus of how to live in a balanced, well-global ecosystem of the human body. And that is what we do at Rocksteady. So we're really diverse. We're not a trendy place. We're not for one type of person. Um we're here to honor the need of every human who's reaching for wellness in their body and being and to provide a pathway for it. Um, we work, we're deeply, deeply thoughtful and well-trained. We work with complex cases, people recovering from complex setbacks and surgeries. We also work with high-performing athletes and lifelong professional athletes and people who are operating at high levels in their mental and professional lives. So I always get way off in the in the woo land.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Okay, but I get because I agree with that, especially in today's world, people are looking for so much more of that groundedness and connection with themselves. And I mean, going back to like kind of like the business itself, like I love the location because I mean that whole holiday center area has like I mean, even when I came and visited, I was with my girlfriend and she had never really been around there. She's like, Wait, what is this place? Yeah, and I was like, because like I don't spend a lot of time in holiday just because like I mean I don't have kids and all that spend around his own. But like, and that's what she said. She's like, I could live here, I could, I'm like, so could I, like, absolutely. I mean, especially with everything that's there, and then also just to have where you guys, I mean, it's it's it's and it's fun because you were there before kind of everything all came to be. And I know that there's a story in in the space and everything that it's come to become.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah, so it was that space and that that block is really interesting, is that um, you know, being from Portland, I watched neighborhoods and blocks kind of get developed. That's what was going on in that town in the mid-2000s and so or early 2000s. And so you would just see really cool things gaining energy. And so Black Diamond is right in that neighborhood. And so when you used to go down there, the really the only thing that was there was just an old great harvest. And it was like very old architecture. Yeah, it was it was like it was fine, but it was big, you know. And uh, there's a really wonderful family that's done a lot of that development, the Melby families, three brothers, they're wonderful people, and uh they had a vision for that, that, that neighborhood and that block. And so they developed that all out, the Harmons, like a lot of the building. And I love it. So many like local businesses.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

It's really well thought out. Because you have three pines, you have Capuda, you have the Crown Burger, yeah. Like, and it's not just like this huge commercial plant, like the V1 of Schoener House that eventually kind of it's what I would call Portland Corner.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

It's it's that's what it is. And so when I saw that, we um were ready to leave. We were in a place called the Loft, which is right next to the bayou and across from the state room downtown. We had a beautiful space there, and so we acquired a business that was in a space in that holiday. Um, someone that we knew that was in our network, uh a really strong practitioner, but not necessarily the best business owner. And so we came in and came alongside her and acquired the space and the business. And um, it was wild is that when we bought it, I I knew full well that uh I needed a demo every square inch. It was god awful. But the energy when you walked in the space was really good though, always. It just like from day one, you just you liked it, right? And so we bought it, and then I immediately announced because we bought a clientele too, and we had a clientele, and so we had to merge those cultures and those those people. And I immediately announced I was like, hey, we're gonna close December 13th and um remodel the whole space. And when I did that, I only knew a designer that was my my good friend Alex Hamlin's wife, Rachel Hamlin. And um, so I had a designer, but I hadn't met a contractor in town yet. And I met, I got connected from my real estate broker, Mike Morris, really OG climber here, uh, former Nepal guide. He connected me into with this this man named Tricky Nicky that I'll leave Anonymous, who's just the sickest carpenter. And so Nick and this guy, Carl, they were like my anchors, and we got together and it was all climbers, backcountry skiers, just a lot of bros. And we demoed the space and did the whole entire space in six weeks in two 2017. It was Rosbian bros, not Rosedbian bros, and man, and like and I rolled through everybody, man. Like I could go through all the cast of characters, but we've we've done every square inch of that space, and its influence and design is Portland. It's something you would see in Portland, it's something you would see in Seattle, it's something you see in the Bay Area, but it also has all these um uh influences that are northern European because I spent a lot of time living in Amsterdam, and so did the Hamlin family, and so those guys lived in that region too. So we brought that and then it blended with Jessa's kind of like cultural inheritance of being just a global citizen. So it brought all that into one, and it's a bodega, you don't even know it's there, and that's why we love it. So it's cool, man. It's fun.

Practice And Education Under One Roof

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Like, even when I showed up, I was like, all right, where are where the hell is this place? And then all of a sudden, like it goes up and like because I always like I mean, I like those experiences better than like a huge neon sign of come join. And so I mean, I love what you y'all have done with this space, and I mean, especially like going to that point of I mean, merging businesses and these different, like uh how it's all come together, it's it's unique in that it's not just bodywork and Pilates itself, but it's also educational, where I mean, you teach it in let me put it this way it's not just a place where you give out fish, but you teach people how to fish as well. That's right. Absolutely, and so it's been small like in a very small city way. I mean, Ashley, who's I mean, on your uh team, who I've met via multiple wine nights here at Wine Wednesday. So it's fun when I walked in, she was like, What are you doing here? Like, what are you doing here? And then they're like, How do you know each other? So always love that. But I mean, talk to me about how that business really became, I mean, so much more of that, but then also became an educational space.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Okay, I think mentorship is something that both Jeff and I also shared very early on. I think in the climbing space, um, mentorship really is part of that dynamic. And then for us with backcountry skiing, um there's there's and I don't know if you noticed how we talked about the providers who were our contractors, is one thing Jeff is excellent at is seeing excellence in everything and everyone. And I think for us, when we look at work, and I always like to take the lens of wellness to everything, how do you work in wellness? And really in a holistic way, it's bringing a high degree of excellence to anything makes it meaningful. I think in the tradition of like yoga meditation, and what I had been learning too is I had followed big mentors in life, like Suzanne Conrad and Baron Baptiste. And beyond offering classes, they then teach you how to teach, which is, you know, learn to fish. And I think a huge part of um empowerment is learning to teach others. It just gives you so much. So pretty early on, I just realized I had an immense, I had been able to secure an immense amount of knowledge from these um incredible opportunities to operate at a high level in the wellness world at Batis and with some of the partnerships with Lulu. That then when it was time for us to open our own, um, I have another mentor for bodywork that just everything I did in bodywork school one week with this mentor out of blew it out of the water. And I've I've now worked with him continually for over 10 years. At the time, I spent a year and a half deeply working with him. And what I will say is that person light yeared me forward. That's a term from Suzanne Conrad, where you could say pay it forward. But beyond paying it forward, if you choose to mentor teach someone and you do it really generously and you give them everything that's taken you a lifetime to learn, you literally accelerate their pathway of development by years. By years. And that is a gift. So for us, what we realize is for one, bringing people in, there wasn't a cultural match. They didn't understand the values, they didn't get the bodywork. And so we started to offer teachings, trainings in-house because for one, I just had so much to offer and so much that I needed to express out. For two, it's totally appropriate with the body of knowledge I have. And I have trained so many yoga teachers in this valley at studios in Park City, at studios here in Salt Lake. I have trained numerous massage therapists. And overall, when we started, I think social justice and kind of trying to create a space for equity to exist really matters to me. And I and I think what I was finding is that um education is oftentimes to be really generous, where I was setting people up to be self-sufficient as opposed to kind of giving them enough to learn, but not enough to go out on their own.

SPEAKER_05 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

So self-sufficiency is something we've been able to really provide for people through our education, where it's not just content focused on yoga or Pilates or massage therapy techniques, but also those people need practice building tools, client management techniques. And that is something that both Jeff and I had in droves. And we saw an opportunity to continue to utilize Rocksteady as a catalyst for increasing the quality of practitioners in the field here in rock in Salt Lake City.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

That's right.

Mentorship That Light-Years Your Growth

SPEAKER_01 55:13

And I like what you're saying about mentors because I mean, in the journey of like what's called education of learning, I mean, skill practice, whatever that might be, you can go to let's use massage therapy as an example. You go to massage therapy school. They have the general textbook, here's what you're gonna learn, take your test to your thing. But then once you start progressing towards that uh goal of excellence and moving towards there, you really can't get that unless you have someone who's been there or is above that. And that is no longer a school, it's no longer a class or but once you experience that, have someone mean take you by the hand or be like, this is what took me from here to here, that's where those light year jumps happen. And so many people get kind of stuck in like these ruts of just like this this kind of like plat, like we call it plateauing. Yes. But until they can have someone who can lift them up to find that X peak, it's it's hard to grow.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

But I think the point I'll make on this little dialogue we're having here is that it's um it's a little bit of a shift we're seeing in society right now, where where because of the flow of information is so flat and everywhere, is that people think they're the expert just because they got the information. And and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Um self-confidence is a great thing. Dunning Kruger effect, that's the one.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Oh, that makes that. All right, we got there.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Yeah, but wait, but but what I'll say is that um, you know, when you see excellence and you see humility in someone extending the the olive branch to you, um if you step into it and take it, it's just the opportunity is amazing. And you know, like Jessa, I had I grew up in a family where my dad, my dad never came home and complained about the boss never once. Because he was the fucking boss. He owned his shit. He answered to no man. So that was like a form of mentorship, watching my old man just like own it. He he made he made it happen. Then this this David Sawyer character I I I spoke of, this guy was like a national level educational reformer. Um, he's a well-known story out in the world that that people should look up. And he became my mentor for 20 plus years, and but then he became a colleague and a peer because it transitions over time. And and then behind him, I met a man by the name of Dag Heinrich that's been my business partner the last three years, but my my sparring partner for over 20 years. We we did back to grad school at the University of Oregon, and this guy taught me so much about um you know the energy game, the private equity game, and um how how to do what we call big game hunt. And and like these are not things you read books about or fucking watch a podcast, listen to a podcast, or um, you know, fucking do an AI thing. So, and then the other one I'll note in this space, and all these guys are really tightly tied together. Like, we're a crew, we've been running together for a long time, is this this gentleman by the name of Matthew Spence. Um, that's that's uh he lives in a spiritual community in uh Northern California. And um this guy uh accepted my application into his book club in the early 2000s, and this is a Harvard guy that's just like an encyclopedia of knowledge. And um, this man has influenced my reading and my my intellectual influences so much. And uh it I wouldn't be where I am today or where we are today without meeting these people. So I I tell this story, I think we tell these stories of mentorship for the the listeners to inspire them to go looking for that because there's there's lots of great thinkers in this town, there's lots of great people in this town. Like we're in a really great spot here in Salt Lake City, and it's it's having multi-generational um relationships and having respect for experts or people of uh intellectual authority around here is um a good thing. Yeah, especially if they're kind and really good leaders, which there's a lot of those here in Utah. So it's it's cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Totally. And so many people are so willing to like if that I've never come across anybody, and if I have, I mean, it's so much more of the exception than the rule of going to somebody like, hey, I would love to sit down and talk about this, or I would love to learn more about this. Everyone's like, Yeah, but love, let's go grab coffee, let's go grab a drink, let's or whatever it is. Um, and that's one kind of perception that's changed a lot for me recently is like the thought of giving back. Yeah, because I always had this perception of giving back is like, oh, once I have a lot of money, I will donate things and I'll have a name on a building as I know. Each and every day, man. The the biggest thing you can ever give back is your time and your knowledge, because that's the only thing that we can give to people before we kick the bucket at once upon a time is like, here's the lessons I've learned, here's the things I've grown and learned to become. Take this for what it's worth. Some people will understand in its context, some people won't. But um there's people that again, like the amount of things I've been able to accomplish has never been on my own, and I've never been able to do it without people that have helped me get there.

SPEAKER_04 59:43

And I think that um, you know, by nature, one of the things at Rocksteady that we're really focused on is this bridging. So bridging, you can call it integration. Integration is both and two things can coexist, even if they seem opposite. Yes. So, you know, you can break cognitive dissonances like when you're holding two things that seem polar, polarized or not able to coexist and they actually do. So you just say yes and base of improv, right? Um is that we're bridging, we're bringing together the best of these ancient uh modalities that primarily have been passed down person to person, teacher to student in small settings at a time. Massage therapy happens that way. Great yoga teacher trainings happen that way, carbon tree, flowing, climbing. So we just have been operating in in areas where craft really comes from basic knowledge available anywhere. But as you titrate up to that higher level, um, even there, there we're we're staying in the tangible three-dimensional world that isn't digital. One of the things at Rocksteady is really when you start to look at wellness practices, all the science of well-being is like in-person, three-dimensional. It it is we have a body, and the digital age is so cerebral, yet it's leaving physiology behind. The body needs movement, connection, um, touch, all the five senses. So to go into a form of mentorship where you can work really closely with one to four people at a time, or one to ten people at a time, um, it's such a unique way to bring back this ancient practice of experiential learning. Experiential learning is where you're learning by watching, doing, and being in the place with the person doing the thing. Different than reading it conceptually in a book.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:37

Um, and so it just was a really natural fit for us to bring that element in. Yeah.

Craft Over Content: Learning By Doing

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

And the I I'll put one more layer on this is that and and this is something we're all guilty of. Every fucking person. When you're 25 years old, there's like a couple points where you think you know everything. Oh yeah. 18. Then you go to college or you go like get a job and you get your teeth ticked in a little bit, but then they like you get strong again, and then like at 22, you think you know it all. But then like when you start working, you know, I've worked with a lot of young professionals in different kind of engagements I've been over the last few years, and they're super eager, they're super smart, but they're super quick to shoot at people above them as if they know better because they just got their fucking degree. And um, you know, when you when you look at leaders, leaders the being a leader is a thankless job, man. Like no one ever fucking pats you on the back, they only shoot at you. That's just how it goes. That's the job. And um, I I say this because um when you're younger, to have patience and try to understand what the people before you are doing is much more beneficial to your your development than having angst and skepticism, which is very um prevalent in society today. And so I just think these are things that we gotta slow the fuck down a little bit and um try to have context on what's going on around us versus opinion and um judgment.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Yeah. And it's it's fun of going through those experiences of rising. Cause like I remember when I was again graduated from college, had my degree, think I know things, and I look at someone in leadership or above me, and let's use corporate America as an example, and I'd be like, I could do that. Like, you know, did like that's fine. I know how to do this. Yeah. And that's but when you're up there, you realize you're like, this is one small narrow hallway path, and there's 10 to 12 of these.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

And you have to take all of them into account with everything else that goes on. That's right. And then you have all of these 12 people and all these different things being like, well, this is matters most. It's not just like, I hear all of you. Here's what's happening, because this is what I at the end of the day subjectively think what's going to be best for everybody based on that. And not everyone's gonna be happy, not everyone's gonna be um mad. And my usual barometers of everyone, if it's equal among the the naysayers and the the uh protagonists, then I'm probably somewhere in the middle or like doing something right. But when too many people are happy or too many people are sad, then something gets left. It's kind of like a sales process. Anytime I get to the end of like a sales process, like using a car's example, if I'm buddy buddy with that guy, I probably just got taken advantage of. If he's mad at me, I probably got a really good deal.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:13

Um, and so in the same way, it's like you kind of have to balance those two things. And and the more that that experience you can have and understanding, then you can look back and be like, oh, that's funny. Cause I mean, every time I talk to someone who's in their early 20s, I'm like, I know you think you know, but yeah, life's gonna again, like to Jeff's point, kick you in the teeth.

Wellness Beyond Trends: Movement As Medicine

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

Yeah. I'm thinking about Rocksteady, and I think, you know, some of the things that are important to us or that I think have us stand out is it's called a wellness practice, not a Pilates studio. It's wellness practice, not the yoga studio. It's a wellness practice, not a body work. And they specifically use the word body work because body work is not massage. I think what we operate in is delivering really deep, thoughtful, um functional therapeutic techniques and tools that give people access to repattering towards positive patterns mentally, emotionally, physically. Pilates does that. Deep tissue body work, it's not like a luxury. America needs to broaden their conception of what a massage is, and it's not only about relaxation. Our style of deep tissue functional therapy is we are activating, organizing, and um, the core functional muscles and strategic, like structural areas of your body so that you can have optimal performance. And then we're dissolving buildup. We are alleviating, you know how the number one thing about medical, about in medicine and wellness, people will say stress. Stress shows up in your body. So to come in for a 90-minute bodywork session and you're coming in loaded with what's going on, you're feeling compressed, you're feeling tension, your mind's going a million miles a minute, 90 minutes later, you are that blank PAL field that we were discussing. Yeah. And so to bring people back to that white space through decompressive, deep tissue, and functional manual therapy and movement practices to give people access to white space and the lift and energy is really what our focus is. And then as you can see, our culture, like our rock study exists for everyone who walks in the door. We say that everybody is practicing wellness, whether it's professionally as something we're offering. It's also something we are, whether it's professionally or personally. So for us, our our culture is as important. Wellness is the way we work. It's not just a commodity we offer to people who come in. We're working in wellness. My team having a safe space to ground, to clear, to gather. My team, our team, understanding real communication, having a flatter hierarchy.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:59

Work life balance, work balance.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

Work life balance. Um like we really wanted to create a place where we could um take Rocksity as a container to practice what it might be like for business to work well and for work to be a place that feels good to be at. So I want it to be, we're really focused on having a reflexive place. And wellness isn't an end in itself. It's not just about a person feeling better for personal optimization. For us, what we see is that community care is a big word and starting to create healthy places to practice your life, um, practice the skills you're gaining to be to bring wellness to every way we live in the world. So I have great aspirations for the world. I think about the world very globally. A lot of us get stuck in these microcosms, like I live in this neighborhood and this city. And that's real, and those places matter. You also live in a collective called Planet Earth. And so for me, just like the body, sure, calf muscle, psoas, kidneys, there's a lot of diversity and there's distinct local places where we play and we really need to be cognizant and connected to what those practices are. Yet anything disconnected in the body is cut off from resource. Okay. And so for us, I think Rock City is a place where people can come to grow and develop and appear in their utmost beauty and contribute their best to themselves, the cells that make up their body, and to the places that they participate in. And in a small way, it's our way of contributing to the betterment of the world through applying yourself. And for us, we love that our team gets to practice Pilates, gets to, we design the space not just for the client, but for the provider as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:52

We wanted autonomy. We wanted to give them um agency and access to choosing their own tunes, to working in daylight to, anyways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

So like one thing I love about the journey that is wellness, and so many people are on so many different state stages of it, is so many people like to apply so many frameworks in their own life of like very binary, of like everybody needs to do this and they will experience that. When at the end of the day, we're all different creatures going through different things and different things work differently for different people. Like for me, I know what I need is my morning routine to set me up physically, mentally, emotionally to be my best self during the day. Yeah. Now that's very different than what one other person could need. And especially in this age where, and I could talk about it for hours, but for the sake of all of us, I won't, of where we've reached this point where physical evolution has reached its maximal state, and now we're in this emotional and spiritual and like uh intellectual revolution, which is a person by person basis, and there is no laws that are applied to it. Because it's fun to see two people who have such unique perspectives of the world themselves. Like I love the way Jessica that you talk about being a global citizen. And because I mean, so many of us, especially in the valley, like I have so many friends that grew up in the same neighborhood, never left it, bought a house in it, raising a family in it, and so much of their perspective is so narrow. Whereas you have this global experience, Jeff, you also have this global experience. And because of these experiences and the perceptions and perspectives, I guess I should say that you have makes you care about things that are happening in the world around you. That's right. Yeah. And I know that um there's some that have m matter a lot to you, especially in, I mean, using ski by backcountry skiing as an example, seeing the great salt lake start to go away. And oh, let's talk about the great lost salt lake. Yeah, it's great.

Culture, Team Autonomy, And Care

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

We love it. Um I I think with with a with a topic like this, I want to put some kind of guardrails or some some shape to it. And um, because it's a complex topic. And so you know, when you talk about things like this, there's there's three types of problems. There's there's simple problems, there's complex problems, there's there's what's known as wicked complex problem. Um this is a complex problem that borders on wicked complex. Um the second container I'll give to this is that um when you when you get into these things, there's like a there's a formula to it. And there's it's it's the formula is uh commercial readiness plus people readiness equals what's known as the human embodiment problem. And this is the work of this man Dag Dag Heiner that I mentioned. It's it's what he's been making sense of the last few years. And what goes on in this is that the human embodiment problem is a feature, not a flaw. And and what happens is that in these issues, uh people get emotional, they get upset, and it guides the discussion in a different way. It moves it into um what we think opinions power politics versus the true matter-of-factness. Yeah, okay. So I'm I'm gonna that's my container as I get into this. So I'm only gonna talk about the commercial or the intellectual side of this. I'm gonna park the emotion of it, even though it's valid. And everyone that has those feelings, they're valid. But when you look at the Great Salt Lake, um, it is in decline. It has been for some time. And this is a really serious fucking issue in this town. Um, it it's our future is attached to it. And I think Governor Cox sees it that way. I think he's done a good job of putting some things in place to try and move the needle and make incremental change. But uh what with this is that we have this opportunity where everyone's all excited about the Olympics, and that's gonna be really great for this town. It was great for this town, it was it was huge for this town in 2002, it'll be huge for this town in 2034. Well, what if in 2034 people show up in this town and it's at 2,000 square miles um when it needs to be at you know 40, 4300 or something? Um it's gonna be a national story. It's already been a national story, it's been in the New York Times. So this this issue, when I get into kind of the commercial side of it, is is that it it it needs really sound thinking. Um, that's not about um let's let's water our lawns less as residential people and let's um you know zeroscape our yards because that's not um material and making change. And it it it it needs creative thinking where you have to go to the source, right? You have to track things back. And if you look at the Great Salt Lake, it's got tributaries that flow into it. Well, uh that tributary, if you were to put it in business terms, it's it's essentially a value chain. Anytime you're trying to bring a new idea into the world that's complex, whether it's in you know, whatever field you're in, hydrogen, carbon capture, wind, solar, you you track the value chain to make a big vision happen. You know, the vision in this town is like let's say the Great Salt Lake, and that's a great vision, that's a great marker out there. But if if if we were to go and take that value chain tracking those tributaries back, is that you would you would go along everywhere along those rivers that flow in and you would find value add, things that are value add, and you would find things that are non-value add. And and what I'm saying there is that if you track each source where water's being consumed, where it's being um used for different uses, there's a lot of industrial farming along those tributaries. It's been here for 50 years, 75 years, 100 years. There's there's wonderful families that that own those farms and make their living at it. Um but uh if you were to look at the amount of resource they're taking in the form of water that's not getting to the Great Salt Lake, and if you were to go and compare that to the per capita economics of what's happening here, you would find an imbalance. It's it's that that's just what's gonna go on there. And so what I'm saying is a a non-value activity is taking more of the value of the water. And these are some of the the questions I'd love to see in this debate, and maybe they're happening, because I'm not in the conversation, man. I'm I'm uh I'm just a smart guy living in this town like everybody else. Um, but this this thing needs to accelerate, is what I'll say, because it's such a complex problem. And if if we don't start making more uh material gains on it versus just this like little hopscotch Mickey Mouse shit that's going on, um, we're we're gonna have a real problem in this town. And so, like a a piece I tried to kind of bring this argument up, it was probably three years ago now, is that um I wrote a piece on it. We have a journal on Rocksteady where we we share thinking and thoughts. And I I wrote a piece um, it was a it was a I think it was called a love letter from the Great Salt Lake or a Letter from the Great Salt Lake. And instead of just being like, hey, we need to do this and that, and you gotta do this, is that I I wrote a piece with a really good copywriter uh by the name of Merritt Fisher, who's who's published in the New York Times, and she's just she helps helps me with my some of my writing at times. We work together, we're a great team. And we we chose to personify the Great Salt Lake to make it a human, to give it a to give it a human existence and to show its plight that it's been going on for a long time because that lake uh wasn't a lake, that was the Bonneville Sea. That's what this valley was, man. There's there's fucking places you can go at the mouth of Little Cottonwood where you can get that story of what went on here.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

You can see sea shells.

Global Citizenship And Local Stewardship

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

You can see that that's that's part of the history of this, this, this, this valley. And so now we're left with this little great salt lake, and and we got to make it great. We we need to rename it the greater salt lake because it needs to get bigger. And so in this piece, we give it voice and we we compare it to looking at a friend that's really sick, um, and talking about friends that died, like the Owens Lake that used to be in California, that is a former Salt Lake that um it died, it's gone. LA ate like the LA ecosystem, like it ate it up, it's gone. And so in in in telling this story of personification, I think it helps us humanize it and ground it down to whoa, like we really gotta get working on this. And the way that problems like this get solved is not necessarily through um there's there's two types of organizations that go on, like in this, in anywhere. There's there's hierarchical organizations and there's what's known as impact networks. And impact networks is the the work of David Sawyer, it's the work of Matthew Spence, good friends of mine. That's that's work they brought into the world. It's captured in films and book in a book. And with a complex problem like this, a a hierarchical structure of, hey, Jessa, don't Eric, don't water your lawn. Um Eric, take a shorter shower, like just little bullshit like that, which that's not what's going on entirely, but I'm using it as an example. That that's tough because hierarchical is command control. And that's people rebel against it always. We're humans, we're we're individuals. But in a network, a network is taking a tough, complex problem like this, and it's bringing people together across public-private partnerships to try and find the things that we share and the things that we really believe we can do about it so that we can really make not incremental change, but material change. So that's just a layup of like some of the way I've been thinking about this and with people I've been having conversations with in this town. Um for because it it's our future.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:00

That's how I feel on it. I think oh can I was gonna say one thing really quick, is I I love that personification point because there's the I don't know if you follow, but there's like the uh GSL hotline or I can't remember what it's called specifically. But it's I mean, we've seen on Instagram, they've had it here where it's a phone booth, they move it around the city, and you can leave a message of Great Salt Lake, call it, talk to it, and leave a message.

The Great Salt Lake: Urgency And Solutions

SPEAKER_04 1:18:20

I saw that at TEDx. Yeah. Did you see that? Yes, so good, right? It can be around. Yes. Totally. You can leave a message for the lake and talk to the lake. Yes. Which actually, I think the person who developed that is a Native indigen Native American from Salt Lake. I'll have to revisit that. But the personification of the lake comes back to when I was when we were speaking about, you know, co-creation is having a conversation with reality. And if you're having a conversation with reality to create your inner reality, you're recognizing that what happened that this is an environment. So Rocksteady is actually means homeostasis. Homeostasis is a dynamic equilibrium that is the optimal environment for life. It's what you try to create in a petri dish, you know, it's what we try to create at the cellular level, at the systemic level within the human body. And I think whenever you start to look at the superstructure of the world, it's all about systems and structures. Even in wellness, it's all about systems and structures and trying to create optimal structures that can sustain your posture through life, that can sustain your um optimal environment. And so I think for us, the environment, at least for me, the natural world is our first world. We've all come out of this earth. And so having this perspective of trying to bring balance and harmony to the to the air and to the water that feed the bodies that we hold, it would be incomplete and uh siloed or fragmented to start to think about personal wellness as if it could exist separate from the wellness of every aspect of the whole world. And here we can look at, you know, political structures, social structures, economic ones. Um, but yeah, I think the Great Salt Lake is an issue we care deeply about.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

I mean, it's like the same, using a metaphor used earlier is I mean, we all all of our bodies have the same currency of blood. And if any sort of the things that make our bodies work and flow gets disrupted, bad things can happen. That's right. And in the same way, like if you have a disease that makes blood not flow to your hand, you could lose a hand.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:41

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:41

So in the same way, if we don't realize that there's something out of homeostasis, we're gonna lose a hand and it's not a hand, it's our home, it's our place that we know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

Yeah, but I mean, I'll just I'll just put a pin in this one. And guys, I mean, with the Great Salt Lake, you this whole podcast, we're talking about ski and pow and how everyone, and that's why like half this town is is they're all powder hungry, man, for good reason. It's fucking dope, rot and powder. That's just gonna be gone if we don't get this intact because that our our whole you know weather forecast relies on the lift off the Great Salt Lake to create the greatest snow on earth. So, in a world where that continues to, you know, decline, uh, our skiing's gonna suck. Then our hiking will be good. That's okay. But the problem is that with that hiking, is that you know, the history of this this land is that you, you know, a lot of you know metals and different contaminants are in that great salt lake, and there's no blame. And that's just, you know, the the the price of progress and the price of development. And that's what they knew at the time. But it exists underneath that body of water, which is ultimately the lid keeping it safe. And so in a world where that thing continues to decline, um, the exposure we're all going to have in this valley to that um is really concerning. You know, we have friends that have have moved from Salt Lake to Park City because they're concerned about it. They're moving ahead because they're like, oh, it'd be better over here. So, like, this is just this is an issue that the winning is the only option. And um, um, you know, I just look forward to us as a as a community and as a the leaders in this town and in this state um really putting some some firepower to this and to to to the credit to Spencer Cox. I mean, they threw like 300 million at the other day. That's that's a start. Um, but there's there's more work to do and and and people know it. So I'm not telling anybody they don't know anything there right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

For it to be done, and there is definitely an urgency to it. And it's I hope we can get to a good answer because like I don't want to leave this place. Like we'd love to hear, man. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, on the same topic of skiing pow and what brings a lot of people here, I mean, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the gondola and everything that's going on in that conversation because it's so interesting to hear every because like I'm very anti-gondola. Like, I mean, there's so many things that there's like so much an easier solution of. I mean, I mean, even just I've taken the bus up many times. Like, would I rather take my car and have my own everything super easy? Yeah, but yeah, would I rather have easier access, more people to get there, less I mean uh impact on the infrastructure? Like, yeah, and there's so many things too, but would love to hear your thoughts on um that conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:12

I'm gonna start and just really brief because again, I think the beauty of Rocksteady and the human body is it is such a powerful place. It is such a roadmap for how to how to present simple solutions for complex or um diverse ecosystems and flow in the body, as we've already talked about with Great Salt League, but here too, flow is so important. And one of the things we're looking at is access to energy within the body. So we need, you might have muscles, but you need your nerves to be able to connect to those muscles to make them fire. So we have to activate channels and have flow happening within us. And bodywork and pluties help us develop systems that allow for great flow of energy to all the muscles that need it to contract. And um, fluid-wise, too, for lymph drainage and for circulation, which feeds every single cell and then cleans it, flow is so crucial. And the body is such a great example of how we have this systemic system and this capacity to switch things on and off. Um, the reason I'm highlighting that is I think as humans, we're so entrained to think about um challenges or things that are arising as a problem and to think about it from having our own perspective and trying to advance that part. Parts can't sustain life on their own within a body. You need to build something that works for the whole. So many of us could probably benefit from being less attached to our personal perspective and more willing to look at what everyone and everything needs. And then Rug City is all about starting simple. And we work with a lot of people in the medical field, a lot of surgeons, and a lot of them agree with us. Let's not cut that tendon if we can just rehab it. So we're human-powered people. We ski in the backcountry because you know, lift is nice every now and then. And climbing is the same way. You're traveling terrine that you then get to descend. Um, so simple solutions that cause the least amount of disruption are usually really effective. So I just want to presence that and then pass it on over because this one's thinking is pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

No, I like that's a good framework to come across. Like that so many people get so beholden to our own opinion. And I think everybody needs to have this, and I need to convince you that this is right instead of zooming out in the broader system of things.

Personifying The Lake And Homeostasis

Gondola Debate: Flow, Cost, And Alternatives

SPEAKER_00 1:25:39

Yeah, and it it it comes, it this is a flow problem, right? The red snake is a flow problem. We have a flow of traffic problem because everyone wants to go up there for good reason, you know? And so when you look at this, this is a complex problem. And and when you look at it, it's it it requires a strategy. And and and strategy is three things it's it's where you're going, it's the top, it's the summit, where you at, and how you're gonna get there, which is all the steps in between. And the the issue I've kind of taken to this one, and I've written on this piece too. It's on our journal, as I wrote a three-part piece three, four years ago on this, and I I looked at each thing that's going on, okay, because there's two proposals on the table. And the first proposal is to build a gondola, right? And UDOT's done a ton of work on that and they've modeled that out. And um they're not wrong, but they're looking at it from the wrong lens. Okay, and let me explain why is that UDOT is saying, yeah, for the best flow and the safest mode of traffic, we will build a gondola and the traffic flow is dependable and the rate is dependable, but they're they're making an assumption of what I would call the revenue or the user riders of what are gonna happen with that. And the reality is that no one in their fucking right mind is gonna ride a fucking gondola for 45 minutes when you can drive your car 15 to 20 minutes on 350 days of the year, and there's only 15 days where you need the gondola. So ultimately what you have is a huge overhang. And that overhang is what is ultimately be paid for by taxpayer dollars. And if you were to go talk to the taxpayers who the people have spoken, if you took a vote of everybody that lives in Utah, it is unanimous that they do not want to do this because uh it's not a good use of funds. It doesn't support the people of Utah, it supports uh two resorts that have a problem and one canyon that has a road infrastructure problem. So the last thing I'll say on that one is that in the argument that UDOT is making and the bill that Gondola people are making is that they're they're they're not looking at the people side that I talked about earlier, which is the visual blythe of uh ruining, which is the treasure of the Wasatch, little Cottonwood Canyon, is irreparable. Like you cannot reverse towers, 13 miles of towers. Um it it it is uh it would be a travesty if if that's what we chose to do. And and this, you know, people might choose to do that. So where's Al Leva? So the second thing that's on the table is the people that are want to stay here where they sit, which is just everybody ride the bus. Okay. And in theory, that sounds great. Let's all get on buses, let's go up there, let's buy more buses. Assets, they're worth something. If it all goes bad and we could sell it, if we global warming continues and we can't drive cars, we'll all ride buses around town, all is well. Well, the problem with that one is that the bus doesn't win, right? Because when you're in the red snake, the bus is just as fucked as everybody else, right? It's just sit and interest yeah, it's no good, man. And so so again, we have an infrastructure problem, and and this side keeps looking at it in a very like infrastructure way that's like you know, the lessons of I-80 215, where they're like, ah yeah, man, we build highways in Utah. Let's build fucking four lanes, no problem. Then traffic will flow because there's more lanes, there's more flow. Well, that's a tough infrastructure project because I-80, you know, where they did between Sugarhouse and let's call it the 215 interchange, that was a goddamn three-year project just to do something that's simple and and very uh straightforward from an from a civil infrastructure standpoint. Lil Cottonwood ain't simple, man. That is a complex environment. And so this one doesn't quite work either. And I didn't get into like the cost overruns of either of these because these are huge capital projects that are quoted in 2019 projects and prices, 2019 prices, and we're here coming up on 2026, and shit has changed. Very much so um that's a tough thing. So what do I think? Well, if you go to different areas that have traffic problems, such as Chicago, such as major metropolitan areas, is that there's often times where they have uh traffic flows where they have they'll have a three-lane system and they can it can it can move either two in one direction, one back, and then it can flip and be two in the other direction and one back. And so they've already started doing in like West Valley and even so like this whole end again going back to it, this is a traffic flow problem. And so the trap the problem doesn't start when you enter the mouth of little cottonwood. You know, the problem is starting to build in big cottonwood too. So Wasatch is part of the traffic flow problem. And Wasatch is prime to make that thing three to four lanes to people move, but at least three continually, where during peak, when you have peak, just like yeah, when you have peak going up in the morning, when there's the the the the craze that is the Wasatch powerhounds, um, two can flow up. Well, one's flowing down because not that many people are coming down. And that same point of view can be taken up Little Cottonwood, where I believe, and I'm not the civil infrastructure guy, so like you dot can true me up. I believe you can get three lanes in there with those shoulders. And in a world where you get three lanes, it allows you to do two lanes of passenger vehicles, but then this is how the fucking bus wins, man. The bus gets the other lane. Yeah, and we all sit on the bus, high fiving with our friends, waving because we're we're on a 20-minute commute up to Snowbird, up to we're getting dropped off at trailheads where we're gonna we're gonna back country ski, where Brad Barlage will come back at Little Cottonwood again because he won't go in there because of the traffic. He'll come back where Caroline Glyke is gonna go ski. Like it it becomes a uh a solution that solves the many versus the few. It becomes a solution that's about the stakeholders involved, not the shareholders involved. And so this same thinking of what I call two up, one down, that reverses in the afternoon and the rent state builds. You flow two down and that bus lane, off you go. And yeah, you got an infrastructure problem to build the roads out. Yeah, you got an investment problem, you know, investing in buses. But buses are assets that are worth something on your balance sheet and they're worth something on the city and the state's balance sheet. And so the other component within a gondola, yeah, man, yeah, like you like a fucking pole all the way up there isn't worth anything, dude. That's scrap. Sorry, my language, I get a little fired up on this one because uh our place for years was looking up Little Cottonwood Canyon. And if if I watched cranes in there putting towers in there, there would be some monkey wrench shit going on. Like it's not cool. So the last thing I'll say on this is that the other opportunity here is everybody acts like they got to go on their own. There's this huge opportunity for really cool transportation hubs around the city because I bet all the people that come from the south, it sucks getting up, you know, 9400 or the the pathways that get you to Lil Cottonwood. So there's an opportunity to do transportation hubs, direct shop buses from many different points and distribute the load and distribute like uh the flow. And so I just I I would really love to see some of this thinking come into the forefront and maybe it exists, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:30

I just haven't seen it, but it needs so much more of the voice because it's yeah, what people want.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:34

Yeah, so that that's just kind of some how we've talked about it in our output.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

I mean, it's we're we're passionate because it's things we love and enjoy, and what brings so many people here and it goes away, and it's yeah, and it's mad.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:45

The thing, the thing I'll say again, going back to you know, when I talk about commercial readiness plus people readiness equals human embodiment, it's like you know, with the Olympics coming here in 2034, we already talked about you know how the Great Salt Lake could be a shining moment or a big problem. The gondola is no different. Like, I just I started seeing stuff where people are getting all fired up being like, we gotta get that gondola done before the Olympics. And it's like, hold your fucking horses. Like, there's no event in Lil Cop one. Like it ain't it ain't an event, like no one like visitors are going up there. And the other thing that I'll I'll I I will, you know, kind of kind of kick or or or uh jab a little bit is um I think there's a point of view that people think that this is a really uh capstone, keystone project for Utah is if oh, we're the first ones in the world to build a gondola up a canyon. This only happens in Europe, but this isn't exist anywhere. This is a first of kind. This is a prototype. Um, I'm very comfortable saying that. And so this isn't a way to showcase our town. Uh, our a way to showcase our town is by having a beautiful transportation flow that you admire when you're in Japan on trains, when you're in Europe on high-speed trains, when you're in Chicago using the L, an old school thing, when you're in the subway in New York City. So, like, I think we can showcase how great Utah is with different ways that are smart, progressive transportation solutions supported by great people called this community. Name is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:06

No, totally agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:08

It's so easy in life to want to avoid what isn't working or to just let it be.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:13

It actually takes a lot of effort to work towards wellness and all levels, right? And I think what we want to see happen, or what I see happening, um, is that as business owners and as contributors to our community, um having the courage to stand in and ask questions and participate in not only what's happening locally in our own spheres, also carry expanding the circle of what we care about and what we're curious about, and and starting to bring in more detachment from our own outcome. And maybe seeing if we can rise above the patterns of interaction that exist or the dynamics that we see as common today, conflict-based, politics, interest-based, and try to look at things from a whole different blend. Yes. So it's really lovely to have the chance to talk and think about who we are, where we're living, and how we can make ourselves, each other, and the environments that hold us better.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:14

Sustainable. Exactly. That's all we want. Sustainability, uh, and like using your example, Jeff, of making everything flow and and understanding that even uh talking about what you were talking about, Jess is like zooming out of the bigger, broader thing and getting away from what we're beholding to. But uh before we wrap wanna wrap up, I want to end with a two questions I always ask everybody at the end of each episode. Number one, if either of you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about what they're up to or their story, who do you want to hear from?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:45

You know, man, I'll give one. Yeah. You know who you gotta have on that is just a great story is uh Jimmy Kefley, man. Like Jimmy Kefly's been in this town, he was born and raised here. Um, you know, four more door-to-door Mormon missionary. And uh Jimmy is known as the window washer in town. And uh Jimmy owns Outlook Windows, and uh Jimmy's just loved by all, man, and he's got a wonderful family, and and they're just like they're a great family unit, and uh he's always been a big advocate involved with Salt Lake Climbers Alliance, and um you know he's a working man that that balances um you know pursuits and uh self-pursuits and in and with with with family as the core. And I think Jimmy would be a wonderful person to come on with you and just kind of tell his story. So you're welcome, Jimmy. I just might have got you on a podcast. So I'm uh I know you're gonna lit out on this. So uh that'll be a couple window washings on both the biz and the house. So let's just let's clean that up, buddy.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:45

Love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:46

Gosh, I um the beauty of having a a business like Rocksteady is we get to meet so many incredible people who are living and contributing to this valley in so many different ways that my list is very long. Oh, I can only imagine. However, given that we're here as a couple, pick one, pick one. I'll pick a few. The first that comes to mind is um long-term, long-standing client and very good friend, Caroline Glyke and Rob Lee. Oh, you have? Okay, so check. Have you had Rob Lee?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:16

I haven't had Rob on, which would be because like I've when I was setting up to record with because I recorded in her house up in um Park City Silver Lake. And it was fun because he's like, at first you kind of like, who the hell are you and what are you doing in my house? And then we started talking, and then they came to an event actually here um about a year ago. It was fun talking to him about I mean his long distance swimming and everything. They have insane.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:36

Right now, I they're going to Hawaii soon to swim that channel. And um, I just learned about cookie cutter sharks. They're these ancient prehistoric sharks and they like have this round mouth. Anyways, just yes, chan swim swimming the channel issues. So they're red. Another so if not them, because if not them, then um the other person that I think of is also in our field of wellness and is someone I met really early on. Um, there's two ladies. Just cool how these little things start to arise and grow together. Um, and back when we had our place on the loft on State Street, people started finding me. My work was legit, people were showing up. And um, Anne Kath Stevens came in. And Ann Kat Stevens holds it down at Stout Lake City. Um, it is functional fitness, um, strength training with kettlebells, barbells, all that stuff. It is profound. She's red, she's into jujitsu, and she's she holds down that studio. All her badass. She really is, and she's so fit and so good at what she does. And then I would love um, you know, gnarly's oh Shannon Grady.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:52

Yeah, Shannon Grady's red.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:54

Yeah, I think she's an incredible female.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:57

She's a hitter.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:58

She's a hitter, she's in it to win it, and her nutritional guidance is phenomenal, and her contribution to that local company is awesome. She's a great story.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:09

Yeah, the the I'm gonna throw one more, all right, one more last one, and we'll close. Is uh you gotta have Fisher Steve on, man. I I already should have Fisher Steve. Yeah, that's a really cool story, man. I got I got mad respect for how those guys have developed out that property that is Fisher Brewing and like the grit they have, just keep growing like the way it's a long story, man. Like that thing goes back to like they had years of incubating it and kind of like setting up to be able to open a brewery and and then they lived through fucking COVID, like us. And um, that was hard for bars, that was hard for wellness places like us for gyms. And uh I think I think Fisher, he's Steve's a wonderful guy, and uh I think he'd be a fun storyteller to have on here. So you should probably should they invite him on sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:53

They build something super special. Like I mean, anybody I bring into town, uh Fisher, yeah, the water is all about both. And yep. Those are I mean, especially with everything coming in in like uh just in central ninth area and put them being a huge part of all of that. Yep. Uh and then last question if people want to find more information about Rock City or both of you, what's the best place to go to?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

Yeah, so I mean, we we put a lot into our our brand and our our our point of view, which is the Rock City website, you know, www.rockstudybodyworks.com. And then um probably by the time this thing launches, um a lot of the stuff I've been sharing, or my point of view is that um my my project will be up, which is the Roach Approach. And so that's that's like www.roachaproach.com. And so that that should be up by the pine this thing does, and that's a lot of my thinking and a lot of my work in the world. So um I think that's where you can find more about you know our our work in the world and the things we're trying to strive for and contribute and be a part of, making the world a better place.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:51

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:52

Love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:52

One body at a time.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:53

Exactly. Thank you both so much. This has been great. Keep doing what you're doing. Love all that you're doing, and I mean, making people like helping people individually feel better about them and their bodies, but then also being so invested into this, I mean, environment and community that we're part of and and want to keep enjoying it the way that it is. So keep on keeping on. Yeah, thank you. Thank you guys.