Vault Episode 13: Adam Barker

He built a life around skiing, then rebuilt his identity around a camera and now he’s rebuilding it again as a startup founder. Adam Barker joins us to talk about the real mechanics behind an “overnight success” in outdoor photography: the grit from team sports, the obsession that made him chase better skiers, and the unglamorous work of planning shots, directing athletes, and executing when conditions and daylight don’t wait. If you’re into action sports, active lifestyle photography, or the creative craft behind iconic ski images, you’ll hear what most people miss about how those photos get made.

We also go deep on the business side of creativity. Adam shares how he moved from PR and marketing into freelancing, why he refused to keep doing work he dreaded, and how he thinks about pricing, value, and sustainability in a world with no standard rates. We talk first impressions, branding, portfolios, and why “fake it till you make it” only works if you’re putting in the reps to make the technical side automatic so your creativity can lead.

Then the conversation takes a sharp and fascinating turn: Bolt Skin and Shave. Adam explains why men’s leg shaving is far more common than people think, what it takes to design a purpose-built razor and skincare line, and how intense it is to raise money, learn manufacturing, and live inside the uncertainty of a consumer packaged goods startup. It’s a candid look at entrepreneurship, fear of failure, and the decision to bet on yourself when your family is counting on you.

If this one hits, subscribe to Small Lake City, share it with a friend who’s building something, and leave a review with the risk you’re finally ready to take.

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Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time 

Transcript

Welcome And Vault Series Setup

SPEAKER_02 1:40

And welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City podcast. This week we are revisiting a conversation with Adam Barker for the most recent episode of the Vault series. Now, Adam decided to take a risk in his early 20s and become a photographer. Now that decision took him around the world photograph. Now that decision took him around the world taking pictures of some of your favorite skiers, lifestyle shoots, taking photos for some of your favorite brands, and everything in between. However, over the recent years, he decided to take a bet on himself and start his own brand called Bolt Shave. Now these are shaving products geared for men, whether you're an endurance athlete or just prefer to have shaved legs and body. Now it's been a few years since he's built that and it's fun to see the traction that has happened since we recorded this episode. But let's jump into it to hear how a creative person found his grounding and eventually decided to bet on himself in the long run. So let's jump into it. I'm so glad. Like it's so funny because like there's always these ones where like there's scheduling and scheduling and scheduling and lives are busy and doing everything, but then it like always comes together. And it's funny because, and I've talked about it a lot right now, but like obviously this podcast is called Small Lake City, but it's almost like this I chase after this energy and it just keeps coming back at me. Yeah. It's like for example, so I so the person who originally turned me on to you was Stu. Okay. And so I was like, okay, cool, like let's get Adam. Like, I love having like love artists, I love creative minds on the podcast. And then um I was like talking to my sister, like, yeah, yeah, like do you know Stu? She's like, Yeah, but I don't know, I know of him, but I don't know him. And she was like, Oh, you mentioned like I should have like Adam Barker. He's like, wait, yeah, yeah, you absolutely should. And it's funny because like I'll always like test it to people. I'll be like, Oh, do you know this person? I'll be like, Yeah, I'll be like, what do you think about having what do you know about it? Yeah, what do you know? Do you think they'd be an interesting person to have on? She's like, and it's funny because I talked to her, Andrew, I think I talked to Stu again about it, and someone else. And it's like everybody had the same answer. It was Adam is amazing. He figured all this out on his own and made it work. And it's so it's so funny. But then also coming in, like another smalling moment, you're like, oh, by the way, I was Pledge Rose at SIG with Julian whose episode went live like today. Awesome. And so it's like all of these moments just start to happen. Like some are smaller than others, some are bigger than others, but it's like it's just it's such this funny little hodgepodge of things that come together.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Well, and it's so true to your namesake, right? Small Lake City. And what a good, what a what a great way to, I mean, theme a podcast for where we are. Because it's like one degree of separation when you really get down to it with everybody. You know, all you gotta do is ask where did you go to high school? What year did you graduate? And then you've you've kind of opened the entire spider web to, well, do you know this person? Do you know that person? And you know, it's a great resource, it's a great network, right? Like for better or worse. That's why like you gotta be you gotta treat people right.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Like, I've I want I want to do uh like one thing I was talking to my uh best friend and roommate, Tanner. It's actually birthday today, but uh is always happy birthday, Tanner.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Shout out. Um, but we I want to do because I've always like I mean, you know, I see movies and stuff like speed dating, but I want to do like a speed dating, but where you have to get make you have to make a connection. So you have to be like, okay, where'd you go to high school? Do you know this person? Do you know this? Like, oh, I do know this person. So some of those things, but yeah, I'm like super stoked to have you here because it's like I said, so many people have said so many great things. And then like just in my own research, it's like, oh my god, like so many great shots, so many great travel experience, and so excited to hear about that and all the other things that you're working on here.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Appreciate it. Happy to be here.

Childhood Travel And Returning To Utah

SPEAKER_02 5:05

And also actually funny, I haven't had someone who's originally from Salt Lake in probably like four up, like four episodes I've recorded. So it's nice to have like a hometown hero back.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Oh man, I love it here. I love it here. We'll talk about that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Oh, of course we will. Uh, but remind like what part of Salt Lake are you from? Like, where were you born and raised?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

So believe it or not, I actually wasn't born here. Uh I was born in New Orleans. Um my my dad was going to med school at Tulane. So born in New Orleans and did a little bit of the med school shuffle for the first, like for my very young years, right? Before I could even remember. So lived there for a year or two. Um, lived in Cooperstown, New York, baseball hall of fame. My dad was doing something there in medicine. I don't know. Um, and then believe it or not, this is wild, but I spent a year in Saudi Arabia uh at at the age of seven years old. My dad was doing a fellowship at the King Collet Eye Hospital. And so I remember living on this, they call them compounds, and this is kind of before I'm sure there was Middle Eastern conflict back then. And I mean, I was seven years old, so how was I gonna be aware of it regardless? But I know for sure that it was not what it is now, right? And anyway, we lived on what's called a compound, and and um you got people from all different nationalities and all different backgrounds, and um, it was really cool. Uh it was kind of one of my first, I'd say, exposures to I don't know, travel a little bit on our way back to Utah. So he spent one year there. We spent one year, and on our way back to Utah, we we we did a little travel, like went to Hong Kong, went to Thailand, and uh, I think maybe wrapped it up with Hawaii. But in any case, you know, that was a nice little I remember the full 747 plane ride, like went like took advantage of every little tchotchke that they gave you, like the eye covers and like the toothpaste kit and like everything, and we're just so fired up um having this experience. So, and and then basically we moved back here because my parents are from here originally. We're we're Utah natives for sure. Everybody boomerangs back eventually, right? Right. Um and then grew up actually in Olympus Cove for a little while. Uh went to Churchill Junior High, and then my parents moved to where they still live today, which is the country club area. And so went to Highland High School, went to the University of Utah. I bleed red, so red. Oh, the the deepest of Crimsons. The deepest of Crimsons, man. Like my boys are the biggest U fans, and so am I, to the point that maybe it's a little obsessive at times. Uh it it hurts my heart. Like this season kind of hurt my heart a little bit.

Grit From Sports And Ski Addiction

SPEAKER_02 7:42

But hey, hey, we'll bounce back. I know. I did this season I had to kind of take a couple steps back emotionally because like I'm like, I'll be the first person to say, like, I'm not the biggest sports fan. Like, I'll all like conversationally I can do it all, but like I would never sit down, like watch every single home jazz game like of that kind of guy. Yeah, but Utah football is different, and so this year I had to be like, okay, you know, everyone's hurt. It's it is what it is. Deep breaths. I'm just gonna transfer portal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Exactly. NIL, so many things.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Totally. But uh, so growing up, I mean, were you a big sports guy? Were you, I mean, and spending a lot of time in the mountains? I know you were a big skier. Was that a lot of your activities that you were spending at that time?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah, so I mean, I played soccer growing up my whole life. Um, loved it. Uh, I wouldn't say I was ever the most talented soccer player, but it's where I found like a lot of grit um and enjoyment in the pursuit, let's just say the pursuit of excellence, right? Like, and I credit a lot of that with my high school soccer coach, his name was Brock Varros, he's a stud, haven't seen him forever, was a lifty at Alta for a lot of years after. But our soccer team, we were never the best, but we worked the hardest for sure. And we won a state championship. I'm gonna go Uncle Rico here for a second. Oh man, you know, back in the day. Uh and and but but what I remember is like our training program and our training schedule, we would just run harder. Um, and so when it came down to it, you know, when we would play these games against the other teams, sure, and and I wasn't uh like a huge part by any means of that state championship. I was a freshman. And then I we may have gone to the playoffs again like later in my in my soccer career there at Highland High School, but um, that's a generous term for what it is, by the way. But in any case, you know, we trained harder than anybody else, and I have always loved kind of that. Um I've for some reason I've always tacked on to the personal suffering side of physical training. Like you sound like Stu. Yeah, exactly. Me, me against me, right? And so like the team sports taught me a lot about um being other centered and and I loved playing for my teammates. I I love like there's not a whole lot of unless you're you know the top one percent of of soccer players per se. Let's just use that as as a and as an example, and I was not that there's there's not a whole lot of singular glory, at least for the soccer crowd in in the US. Um, but I just learned to love to suffer for my teammates and to like literally go off on a stretcher every every game, like figuratively most of the time, hopefully. Um so played a lot of soccer. Uh, and then was was like it's funny, mountain biking back then was just starting to come on. But I remember doing it by myself all the time. Like it's not like a ton of guys were doing it. We didn't have NYCA, and I don't know if you're familiar with Nica, but Nica is the high school racing league. Yeah. My nephew does it, yeah. Okay, but 7,500 kids statewide is what wild. Yeah. I mean, if you go to these events, it is the most electric atmosphere. It is so rad. You've got kids all shapes and sizes, all different backgrounds. You got kids that are sporting freaking$13,000 bikes. That's true. What's up, Corner Canyon? Uh, and uh, you got kids that are sporting$500 bikes, and they're all stoked. Yeah. And um it and the organizers have done a great job pulling it off. I think the state championships, which were down in Cedar City this year, had like 2,500 people there. I mean, and coming from an event background and just seeing, well, not an event background, but having been to plenty of these, like the infrastructure to pull those things off is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

So and it's like not only that too, but like, because like one thing I so like my nephew does it, and my sister will always tell me, like, oh, we're just traveled to here to hear. I'm like, oh my god, like these kids get to go like on the best trails and really go like appreciate Utah. Like, yeah, like because I in high school I played lacrosse, and the coolest place I went to is like Tremont, you know? But they're like, Oh, we were just down in Moab or we're down in Cedar, we're doing, we're gonna go to Corner Cant, we're like all these places. I'm like, wait, what do you guys get enjoy all day?

Sponsor Break Gnarly Nutrition

SPEAKER_00 11:54

It's like this is this is bullshit. It's a rad, it's a rad atmosphere, it's a rad scene, and but did not have that, right? So was when I was growing up, loved doing it. Um, I actually played a lot of tennis and still do play a lot of tennis, love tennis, but skiing owned everything. Like my life was built around skiing. I I was the kid that had posters covering every inch of my wall, you know, um, like magazines stacked to the hilt in the closet. I when I served my mission for the LDS Church, I I pasted a uh a cover of the enzyme over a powder magazine. So that's amazing. So I mean, I was a pretty obedient missionary, but that was like my one like guilty pleasure that I was gonna give myself. And oh, you're really loving that enzyme there. I know. I love this November issue, it's the best. I read it for the articles, right? Um and you know, I I built my college schedule around skiing. I remember, I remember I got grounded for whatever reason from my car, probably because I got too many parking tickets or speeding tickets. Who knows, man? I ran the I I put my you know, I put my mom through it in high school. She knows it, everybody in my neighborhood knows it. We're really tight now. Yeah, um, but in any case, you know, was skiing park city back then. They were the only resort that would do like youth passes. Yes. And my parents live uh right near what's now the Walmart at the mouth of Parley's Canyon. So we live right on that on ramp. And it was like a POW day, and I had no transportation. I'm like, I gotta go. I gotta I gotta figure this out. So I threw on my boots, put the skis on my shoulder, and started walking up the on-ramp and held my thumb out. And sure enough, I got picked up, man. And uh I went skiing. So it was that sort of thing for me. Um, it just I I truly I loved it so much. Um, it didn't matter the conditions. I ate it, I slept it, I breathed it. I remember another time, this was in college, but showed up to Alta on a ridiculous morning. It would have been two or three feet of pow. And I had my boots, for whatever reason, the tongue on the left boot would like it was like detached from the rest of the boots. So so when I'd get out of it at the end of the day, like the tongue would like come all the way out, and it was usually always there until that morning. And I showed up and I'm like, what? I'm putting my boots on and I don't have a tongue, and it's like it's this crazy parking lot rush, everybody's rushing to get in line, you know. You got like two feet of powder waiting for you, you got the avalanche bombs going off. I'm like, what am I gonna do? I'm like, like, failure is not an option here. And I just found like a buff and stuffed it down in my boot and like ratcheted my boot down and like worst shin bang ever for that day and the rest of the season. But I I remember, man, it was good skiing. So skiing owned my life. Let's take a quick break.

Learning By Chasing Better Skiers

SPEAKER_02 14:54

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SPEAKER_00 15:57

Like whoever, wherever. I was always that guy, I always had my own agenda. And so, like, I loved skiing with buddies, but I just I kind of wanted to do my own thing all the time. Like, I've since mellowed out. Like, no friends on a POW day, that's no fun, man. Like, you know, I think that's a very everybody experiences that phase, right? Where you're just like, I'm frothing, I gotta ski. And so, yeah, I had good buddies like that I was skiing with in high school and college. And actually, I remember in particular there like seen my junior year, you know, the seniors one year uh uh older than me, it they're always like they hold this space in um on a on a pedestal, right? On the podium, like the seniors are the or the people, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yeah, it's funny how that is.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

And so I remember like I would always ski with them and chase them around, and I'd watch them. I'd watch, I'd ski with people that were better than me all the time. And I just had this, I don't know, I've always been a visual learner, and I think um so I would always chase them around and try and keep up, and that's what I tell my kids, and and it ultimately made me a way better skier. Um but I always enjoyed, you know, skiing with people that were better than me, um, because you know, it makes you better, and I think that can be said for a lot of things in life.

The Shift Toward Photography

SPEAKER_02 17:19

I was a similar way. So like I was a big park rat in high school and college, like would always just go up to Park City. Like I had a ton of friends from Park City, and it's funny now because like there was a so when I went on my mission, like I had these friends from Park City, I knew they were all good at skiing. Like it's because like again, I was at the same place. I was like, Oh, like all these kids are better than me, they pushed me into this, but then there was this point I was like, and I'm done. Like, there's there's nothing when like these are the kids who became like I mean, Kai Cropella, Alex Schlope, like like these people, and I'm like obviously not doing like the same things, but it's so funny how it does get to that point, you're like, buddy to the same points like follow them around, right? Keep up, try to do what they do, and you'll only get better at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

And so, I mean, at this point, um, I mean, is there like this creative itch or any sort of like aptitude towards that, or is this just like completely out of your mind at this point?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

It's really not in my mind. So, from a photography standpoint, like my only formal training was a black and white film class at Highland High School, right? Um, my teacher's name was Mr. Cragel, he's still around. Like, thank you for instilling that that love of photography. But it's not like, and I and I say this because I've done this obviously these types of interviews a bunch. It's not like I picked up a camera and was like, this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Um, but I enjoyed it, I loved it. Truly, I wanted to be a pro skier, like had had really like zero interest in being behind the lens. Um, and that was really, you know, what kid that loves skiing doesn't want to be a pro skier, right? Like, yeah, it's just it's like if you love basketball, you want to be a pro basketball player.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

And like, yeah, it's like the same thing with like like skiing and like my memories, and also like because I also like rollerbladed a ton, and like we were always filming and like I mean photography and everything around that. And no one ever wanted to be like, hey, do you want you want to film me do this? Like, no, I want you to film me do that. Exactly.

The Hidden Work Behind Ski Shots

SPEAKER_00 19:09

I want to be the man, I want to, I want the glory, right? Yeah, and it's funny. I um still in college had this day where one of my good friends to this day, his name is Will Wisman, legendary ski photography. I just posted a picture of him yesterday of Julian. Will's a stud. Yeah. Uh he's down in New Mexico, New Mexico right now. He's kind of transitioned out of photography for the for the most part, but still spends like a month every spring up in Alaska. He's pretty legendary in the AK scene. In any case, um, it was a random morning up at Alta. Uh, we were hiking the shoulder, and there was a crew above Trier, and I was just trying to find an inn with I just I wanted to be the guy in front of the lens. Yeah, so I was like, hey, you guys mind if I hit this before you? You know, just like test it out. And I looked at Will and I'm like, hey man, I could just be like your guinea pig. And he's like, whatever. So hit Trier, and then uh was just kind of tagging along with this crew, and um then we got out to Rocky Point, and we get to A-Frame. I don't know if you've ever looked at A-Frame. A-Frame is like, so Rocky Point for anybody for those that know, they know. But if you don't know, Rocky Point truly for images published from Alta, I would say, gosh, at least 50% are from out in the Rocky Point zone. And if it's an air, for sure. It's side country, it's it's right next to the Supreme Lift. Um, super accessible, it's pretty short vert. Snow is always really good, and there's a number of hits, number of drops. There's A frame, B frame, C frame, and and and it's just a great little zone, like easy access. So A-frame is kind of the legendary hit, but depending on what it is, it's anywhere from I don't know, it can be as small as 20 feet. If you really send it, you could go as far as 70 feet, you know. Um, it just depends on what time of the season and how much speed. But bottom line is you stand on top of this thing and it is a ramp to another planet. Like you look at this thing and it just goes into oblivion. And it's my my heartbeat's like getting out there right now just talking about it, man. I need to settle down here. And so we get out there, and I don't think I'd ever hit it before. Um, and I was like, okay, man, I'm I'm with I'm with this crew, they're little, they're legit. I gotta be legit. What do I do? And uh I went off and I just threw like this 70-foot front flip. And I remember Will being like, huh? Like, that's the dude we just picked up. And uh instant buddies, right? And and so Will was shooting it. Uh got some rad shots from Will. It's fun for me to look back at these images now because I I see where Will was as a photographer. Um, I don't care about where I was as a skewer. I look at it from a photo standpoint right now. But at the time I was so stoked. That was truly like I don't know. That was like my I don't I don't think I thought about being a photographer, but it was like the first time I'd really connected in that kind of scene of athlete and photographer. Um, and then it it didn't take long for me. I I don't I don't remember what year that was, but I started kind of dabbling a little bit more, not with ski photography. Ski photography is actually the last thing, the last one of the last pursuits or genres or whatever you want to call it that I pursued with photography because it's interesting that it comes like it's this like passion that you have.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Photography is not on the radar, photography comes on the radar, right? You kind of like disappear from skiing and then like this full circuit, like, all right, we'll now be right.

PR Career And Refusing Dread

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, it's I really had to get, I just wanted to ski pal. That's it, man. It was so hard for me to be like, okay, am I gonna, am I really gonna like ski past this? And are we am I gonna shoot this? Am I not? And it took me a long time to get committed to it. And then honestly, like I go into two modes. I'm either in ski mode or I'm in photo mode. And same thing with fly fishing. Like I'm either in, you know, I'm either in shooting mode when the light is going off, or once I get in fishing mode, it's hard for me to transition out of that. But you know, with skiing, it really was, it became because of my connection. I and I I think this is what really allowed me to excel with with ski photography is because I'd spent some time in front of the lens. I knew what it no, not never like at a crazy level, right? But enough time to understand what it feels like to be on the other side. And one of the biggest challenges with ski photography is communicating your vision. You're in a verbal way to narrate that vision to the athlete so that they can turn in the right spot or turn in the right way. Or how are you guys hitting this air? Are you straight airing? Are you doing a trick? Show me your trajectory. Are you spinning? Which way are you spinning? Exactly. And so you want to talk through it all. And then you you're talking about landmarks. Okay, well, over this bump and by that tree, and blah, blah, blah. And like it looks totally different. And you find that out real quick in ski photography is that you find that out real quick. When you're like, okay, this is the shot, and you got it all perfect in your head, and the athlete does something totally or turns into a totally different spot or something totally different. You're like, what? Okay, we talked about Yeah, you're like, come on, I thought we were there. And ultimately, it's my job as the photographer to help them understand what the vision is, and and then they work their magic. But if I can't articulate that to them, and and that's the thing about ski photography, is if you have a shot, like if you have a vision, composition, all of that, it's not happenstance in any way, shape, or form. I can't tell you how many people across the years are like, so do you just like set up and like people ski by and you're like click, click, you know? And that couldn't be further from the truth. Like, I wish it it would be rad if that's how it was. Like it'd be way easier. I'd ski a lot more. The athlete would ski a lot more. Um, but it's work. It's work for the photographer, it's work for the athlete. You're watching if you're if you're shooting inbounds, you're watching people like shred and be stoked. And and we're stoked out there too, but you know, you're going down making two or three turns, and then maybe you're hiking back up and doing it like the couple feet over, or maybe you're just like scooting down the slope another hundred to four hundred yards and and attacking that part again. And so, you know, it it is it's work. And and if I'm not able to communicate that clearly, it's my fault. And so being on the other side of the lens really helped me to understand what it feels like on both sides. I truly think that helped me to to shoot in my own unique way and get the athletes to to collaborate on that. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

And so so let's go back to this call. So college, you're like, all right, I'm gonna be a pro skier, you bump in a will, you get you kind of get, I mean, let's call it like a nod or like dash from him in this moment. And then so I mean, I bet you're on cloud nine being like, oh, like yeah, I'm like, hey, look at these pictures.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Am I famous yet?

SPEAKER_02 26:57

But I mean, like, at what point did you get to where you're like, okay, maybe I need I mean, I guess my question is at what point did photography start to come up for you in a way where you're like, oh, maybe skiing isn't this, I need to go change directions or passions, or where did that kind of inflection point happen?

Going Full Time As A Photographer

SPEAKER_00 27:16

So, I mean, truly, skiing was never gonna be my career, right? Like, I had aspirations and dreams, but ultimately I got married. Uh, you know, in the in the first winter, in the the the first winter of my marriage, I went to the ER three times. My wife was like, We're shutting this down, you need to rein it in, it's very expensive. I'm sick of getting phone calls. This is ridiculous. And I'm rethinking my decision to get married to you at this moment, you know, and and so I was um majoring in communications in public relations, and so ultimately, you know, went into PR, worked in PR in the ski industry, right? Like still, you know, this is where my parents, I'm sure, were a little concerned. I come from a family of a long line of doctors, you know, lots of lots of expectation there. And then they got Adam going to be the ski bomb, right? And uh, and it was awesome, man. I worked, I threw parties for Powder Magazine and rented out suites for the Rockies games for mountain sports media and like Hob Not, yeah, right? Well, it's the life, right? It was the life for a kid that was in college and just coming out. Like my first internship, like my first job out of college was an internship at Ski Utah. I walked in the front door, asked them what they had available. I think it paid zero to maybe like something between slim and none. Yeah, maybe lunch once a week. Maybe lucky if you're lucky. Um, and uh anyway, that was I was I was still chasing it became let's put it this way, from a from an early age, I knew I was going to do something that I loved. I wasn't gonna let money or power or status or whatever else might be dictate my path. Um and interestingly enough, Ski Utah, a great organization, like Nathan Rafferty, the president, one of my best friends now. Um but back then he it was not a great job for me. It believe it or not, it was the job, and he wasn't the president back then. We won't get into the intricacies, but bottom line is I didn't, after doing that for a little while, I did not love going to work. Um, and again, I want to say it has nothing to do with what the organization is now. It just wasn't your calling, yeah, it just wasn't a great fit. And and I actually it was after a year or two there where I looked at my wife and I was like, you know, I will never do something that I dread getting up in the morning for ever again. And so I I left Utah and then went and worked in marketing at um Solitude Mountain Resort. Jay Burke was my boss. I I count him as one of my greatest mentors in marketing and PR and understand branding, which ultimately, and we can talk about this, has been uh such a key cornerstone to my success as a photographer is understanding branding. Yeah um understanding my brand, right? Um, but uh went from there and then ultimately ultimately ended up at Ski Salt Lake, which is part of the Salt Lake Convention of Visitors Bureau, loved it there, worked in PR there. And uh, and then it was in 2008 that I jumped off. It I I had actually approached my wife like a year and a half earlier. I'm like, what do you think? You know, I had become completely obsessed with photography at that point.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

I mean, what got you? So, I mean, obviously you have this Highland High black and white photography class. You're like, cool, whatever. Like it's probably like uh easy class, whatever you're like, oh, this is kind of interesting. But was there anything that like brought you back or like like re like relapsed almost?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

No, I had kind of stayed with it. I it just didn't it didn't own me, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:57

You're always like taking pictures of your own and like even on my mission, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

I I got a nice SLR before I went on my mission, shooting film. Like I had a desire to share what I was seeing and doing with other people, but never as like a this could be a career. Never even remotely thought of it as a career, but came home, was continued to shoot, and I think it was a a passion for the art and the craft combined with a recognition that wow, I'm there's some talent here, right? Like I'm good at this. Well, I you know, I told myself that, and then I look at the pictures from back then and I'm like, this is lipstick on a pig. Holy crap! Like, I don't even know if we can call it lipstick, this is just a pig, you know. Um but you know, you you have that I had gotten enough feedback from enough people where I was like, yeah, maybe, maybe, and and I just I saw it coming together, and I just the way that I functioned, I started just devouring information on photography. And back then it was magazines, yep. Back a square wheel, right? Like internet just was still we weren't there yet.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Right. YouTube university wasn't up and running.

Failure Is Not An Option

Turning Landscapes Into Commercial Work

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Exactly, not even close, right? So a lot of magazines, obviously, like blogs, um, but I just could not get enough of as soon as I started getting that feedback, and as soon as I started to recognize that, yeah, maybe not only am I passionate about this, but I'm getting enough feedback, and I feel like in my heart of hearts that I'm good enough at this, like it was kind of the right formula and combination to to make me want to look into it further. And once I did, there was really no turning back the way that I'm built. I'm like, finally I got to the point where I was essentially working two full-time jobs, hardly two full-time incomes, right? But like I would have my day job, and then every other waking moment of the day, I was shooting pictures or reading about it, or um yeah, really just kind of pursuing it in any way, shape, or form that I could. And at that point, I had kind of had an image or two published. Um, I had done like one or two jobs. My first job ever in photography for was that for this super ghetto hotel on Four South. I don't even remember the name. It was like Meth Central or something, and they wanted me to do they needed shots of their rooms, and I think I got- Are you sure you want shots of you? I was like, I'm not like a great photographer, but this also isn't a great room. And I think I made like six or seven hundred bucks. I was like, I'm rolling in it, you know. I'm made. I got my first check. I'm like, I'm in. And uh um I I'd I'd had just enough of an intro there where I was like, dude, I gotta, I gotta look into this. So I approached my wife. She's like, no way, absolutely not. Uh you know, I told you you can't ski, you're going to the hospital, you're not gonna go skipping. I'm making it sound like she's like, she has been my always my biggest fan. And ultimately, but but she was like, No, uh, I want a secure paycheck. We need benefits, you know, like you might not be making much right now, but you're making something. Yeah. And uh we had one, I have I got three boys, so we had had one child at that point, and he was like two years old, had another on the way, and I was just like, Miranda, you know, there's a lot more that goes into this story, but to make a long story short, ultimately she was in, and and I was in, and I was like, there's no fail. Like, there is no fail. There's no way. Like, I burned the nodes, I will not right. And this is what I firmly believe about life and any pursuit, whether it's professional or athletic or um, you know, an emotional journey. If failure is not an option, you will not fail. So put yourself in a position where failure simply cannot be an option. I had one kid, another on the way, mortgage to pay. Um, my wife at that point, she was working part-time in real estate, but truly she was full-time mom. So very little, like when I branched off to do this, the thought was, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna be the breadwinner, and then we're gonna supplement with with my wife's income. But truly, you know, it was just, I mean, being a mom is a full-time job. That's it. Like, shout out to all the moms out there that are full-time mom and working, it's it's another level. Um, but ultimately I had to be the breadwinner. And that I just if I just like I could not fail, and I would not, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

And so at this point, are you just like stoked in photography in general and just kind of a generalist, or are you figuring out kind of what this niche is, or at what point did you land on where you wanted to go with photography itself? Because obviously, like there's endless directions you can go with photography.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Yeah. So I started in pets and pet weddings. Yeah. Very lucrative these days. No, you're right. Like, you've got to one of the biggest challenges as a photographer, not only like you're figuring out your your creative style and your approach, but if you're serious about it, you need to like you need to be realistic about what type of business approach you're taking and what what that genre is. Like, I knew I would never shoot weddings and family portraits. A lot of and I got no problem with that. And it's actually a really it can be a very lucrative um genre of photography. It's very crowded in Utah, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Every soccer mom with the I could probably throw a rock from this building and hit someone who's probably away with photography.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yes, and so there's a legit race to the bottom there, but it's it's a great genre of photography, especially if you can land that higher end clientele. But I knew it would be active lifestyle and outdoor, but but truly, well, actually, I didn't know it would be active lifestyle and outdoor. I was a landscape photographer. That's true. I loved landscape. That's to that point, that's really what I'd done. And is this mostly just because I mean Utah's beautiful and you want to capture it's beautiful, I spent a lot of time out there, you know. It's where I was, it's where I enjoyed being, it's what I wanted to share with people. And it in my journey coming up just through like finding my love for photography, that's just what I'd fallen in love with. Like old school guys like Mark Monk and um oh my gosh, I'm told like Thomas Mangelson, who's who's largely a wildlife photographer, but a lot of landscape stuff too. Yep. Um, these old school guys, you know, Galen Roll. I just had fallen in love with landscape photography and I was good at it. I at that point I had you know started really understanding, you know, the technique and employing um old school techniques with grad and D filters. We won't get into all that stuff, but I had a really great eye for composition and and capturing a frame with a great deal of depth. Uh, I felt like I actually came to to be pretty good at shooting landscape photos fairly quickly. And then tough reality, like it's kind of hard to make a living landscape photography. You either got to have a gallery or you gotta do workshops or both. Um, and there's just an over and even way more so now, but even back then there was an overabundance of landscape imagery out there with just um uh a lack of demand for that type of imagery. So quickly I was like, well, I can shoot really pretty photos, really pretty pictures. I should put somebody in it doing something or using a particular product or start showcasing a destination. You know, I started to pay attention to the lifestyle and the active lifestyle part of things, and had done a lot of research from a business side and um was like, this is this is this is how it works. Like I'm gonna be a commercial photographer and I'm gonna shoot for brands that I love and that I know um and that I appreciate, and I'm gonna pursue photography and the passions that that I am passionate about. So, you know, skiing is is is a very I core core sports are quite crowded because they're very sexy and very popular and everybody wants to do it. So I'll say it's a there's not a lot of dollars to be made in core sports. There's a lot of memories to be made, there's a lot of fun to be had, there's a lot of life experience deposits in the in the piggy bank, you know. Um, but it's tough to make. I always wanted to make a good living. I wasn't gonna be a starving artist. I wanted to provide a good living for my family. And so I had to balance that against what I loved with photography and try and find a happy marriage there, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:16

It's almost the uh what's the Japanese term for finding like that intersectionality between like what you're good at, um what people appreciate, gives money and like anyway. But it's like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I need to know that term.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Oh, look it up and add it in it after. Um, but I love that you have because I love that your mentality going with this. You're like, I'm not gonna fail. I'm gonna be the breadwinner. I want to give my family the life that they deserve. And I like that your iterative approach, we're like, I'm good at landscape, I do this, but then you're like, this isn't gonna pay my bills, this isn't gonna do what I need it to do unless I can, I mean, break out of this crowd and and and go over there. But then you're like, well, there's actually if I like pivot slightly towards this, or if I do this, then there is this. Because like, I mean, you know now, I mean, if you brands will pay a lot of money for a great picture because a great picture can I mean do a lot. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Um, so I love that you have this um kind of idea and like keep chasing towards there, but I also like wanted to come back and touch on how you learned everything alone. So I mean you're digesting all this content, you're reading all these magazines, you're reading all of these blogs, but I mean at what point did you find yourself like shoulder to shoulder with people who are like let's call it professionally trained or had been there forever, and you're like, oh yeah, by the way, like got really good at reading and went to the library a lot, you know?

SPEAKER_00 40:29

You know, I know it like you say that kind of in jest, but uh I it really is like fake it till you make it 100% true. Like I would just continually put myself a little bit past my comfort zone, you know, um, with these commercial jobs, and you do one that you're really scared about, and then for the next one, you know, you're like, I got this. And then the next one, like you do another one where it's a little bit past your comfort zone, and you're like, okay, I can do it. I remember way back in the day, I I had a client, they're called Wildcat A Ranch, they're down in Graham, Texas, which which is Graham America, is what I call it. Um they're about two hours, let's see, southwest of Dallas. And guest ranch, beautiful Texas Hill Country. No idea how we got connected. But um, they're like, hey, we want to do an aerial shoot, you know. And they're like, Have you done that? I'm like, Oh yeah, I could totally do that. Never had been in a helicopter at that point ever, let alone with a camera in my hand. Um, so we get down there, you know. I was stoked to be doing this shoot for them, and we're doing horseback riding and like ATV and shooting some architectural interiors and stuff like that. And then we got it, and this was before drones. And so this helicopter lands, and it's for anybody that knows helicopters, it's a Robinson R22, which is the equivalent of a gym locker with a rotor on top. It literally is so small inside. Like if you're a large person, you will not fit next to the pilot, or you'll half of you will be hanging out. Yeah, you're you're shoulder to shoulder. I got two cameras hanging from my neck, you know, and I'm like, all right, let's do it. Yeah. Like LFG. And we get up there, and yes, like, I mean, it's still photography, but all I'm like, wow, things move really quick up here. And I'm like looking through my lens and I'm like, there's the shot, and like literally half a second later, it's gone. And so you just learn very quickly. But bottom line is like I had it, I had it dialed in the sense like at that point, my fingers functioned separate of my brain, like in terms of adjusting exposure and adjusting aperture. And I had spent, I don't know if it was 10,000 hours at that point, but it was close to it. I had put in the time to understand, and I always, because I've taught a lot of workshops and done a lot of courses over the years where it's like you want to make it so the technical part of your brain functions intuitively so that you can dedicate the creative, like all of your capacities to the creative pursuit of photography. And and they play off each other, right? It's like if okay, if I understand, like let's say I'm shooting skiing, for example, creatively, I want to show speed. Um, all right, well, that means I got to shoot at a slow shutter speed and pan with the skier. And and so that technical knowledge informs the creative, and the creative informs the technical, if that makes sense. Because like if I want to show speed, and uh then it's like, well, either the skier's got to blow this up, or I can shoot at a 30th of a second or a 20th of a second and move with the skier, and he could be moving really slow, and everything behind him is gonna be blurred, all those little like nibblets of snow that coming up on the powder turn, they're gonna be like like just kind of pouring over the shoulder, like showing it almost looks like water, right? So anyway, to go back to the the fake it till you makeup art, I I just I just did it, you know, and I talked to a lot of like I talked to a lot of people. Um I would talk to older photographers and more seasoned photographers when I was bidding jobs, you know. It's really hard for me to um to relate to people that ever attribute all of their success to only their own merit and their own doings because I firmly believe that none of us ever arrive at the point that we're at now, if that's successful, right? Um, on our own merits. And so, you know, I always like, especially in photography and in any creative field or in any freelance field, your strength is in your numbers. Yep, right. The the hardest thing about the business of photography is that there's no standard, like there's no like standard rate sheet, there's no um standard day rate, there's no it look it runs the gamut from the client side. Sorry, buddy. Oh, you're fine. It runs the gamut from the client side to the photographer side. And so, you know, you get one photographer that is charging, let's say, five hundred bucks a day, and you got another one that's charging 3,500, and you got another one that's charging 10 grand. And obviously, there's different skill sets and skill levels across that um across that gamut of pricing. But I I wanted to understand, I always wanted to do do right by the industry as well as doing right by myself. Now, I've kind of gone through a progression over the years that you really do have to look out for number one ultimately. But if by looking out for number one, you're undercutting your industry and you're hurting your industry, like that is not a long-term exactly model for success and sustainability, right? And so that's what I always tell you know, young photographers, it's like build a model that will build sustainability and that will that will sustain you over the years. Like, there's no point in undercutting or setting your rate super low to get X client because guess what? The next time they have a job and you're bidding on a job, if they're if they're solely looking at price and then then they're probably just gonna go with the next lowest photographer. So build a relationship, illustrate your value beyond what you're charging, you know, whether that's experience, whether that's a special particular Skill set within that genre, whether it's a network, whatever it is, illustrate your value and then charge accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Totally. Yeah, because like there's like so many friends that I have. I mean, it works in both like I mean, creative pursuits, entrepreneurial pursuits, whatever. Everybody feels like, I gotta beat the price, I gotta start here. It's like, no, no, but you also have to respect yourself. Like you have a job and a talent and a skill that you do, and you have to be able to do that because or else you become the guy that raced to the bottom. And as soon as there's someone below you, then that's the only value that you had, and and it's gone. Um, and it's so funny because like uh I mean one of my friends, I mean had him on the podcast, John Darley, I was talking about we had got wings down in Oram, and we were just talking about that, about how he's like, it's so interesting to see how it's gone from starting at this place where it's like, okay, like I'll take a commission, whatever it is, to try to get money in the door, but then it gets to a point it's like that's funny, you think I would do this for this, like never gonna happen. I mean, you gotta start at some place, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

And then and when I look at my old invoices, it kind of blows my mind. So you do have to start at some point. You gotta be reasonable with the ask versus the deliverable. So if you're, you know, green guy, like have been shooting for a year, you certainly can't expect to bring in what dude that's been doing or woman that's been doing it for a decade has. But like you said, like there has to be a point where I mean, first of all, you should know your cost of your daily cost of doing business, right? Like, and and at very least you need to understand that. So you're not paying somebody to work for them. Um but one thing that I've really found uh over the course of my career is first of all people can only say no, right? Yeah, like what you never and and and most of the time, a lot of the time, they will say yes, or they will meet you somewhere in the middle. So don't sell yourself short, right? Like in when whether don't sell yourself short number one, but number two, always just always deliver. Yeah, like never leave anybody wanting more, or like wanting more than what you've like actually that that sounded like leave them wanting more from you, but don't leave them underimpressed, right? Yes, underpromise, overdeliver. And I think that's the bottom line is I I'm very transparent with clients that I'm not necessarily the least expensive by any means, but I will work harder to deliver them a better product than anybody else out there. And over the years that has proven true. True.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

And it's like that snowball, it's like you talked about, right? Because if you do the best that you can do for them, then they're like, oh my gosh, like I had everything, like my my expectations were exceeded.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

And because everybody talks, everybody knows, and then they'll come back to you, they'll refer you to someone, right? And it's it's always worth it. But if you go to these like little battles of nickel and diming over something or like not feeling like you have to do your best, or you don't put in your best effort, then that door closes and it probably will never open again. Right. Um, so I love that like so you have so you get into this and you're like, yeah, I mean, like I'll do a job, like I I think I can do this, like pushing yourself, growing a little bit, little by little. I mean, was there ever like a point that you remember where you're like, I think we're getting like this is happening, or like like the it's starting to like the fruits are starting to bear?

Pricing, Value, And First Impressions

Freelance Cycles And Staying Hungry

SPEAKER_00 49:44

You definitely get a lot of those, you hopefully you get those reassurances along the way. Like when you get images published, right? Like in in different publications, so across like I'd get covers of outdoor photographer, which was like the magazine back there. It just barely went defunct RIP, uh, as many magazines have. Um, but uh that was I remember getting the the cover of Outdoor Photographer, and then I I I was actually writing for them as well. Like I credit my mom actually with she was an English major in college, and so she was always on mine and my siblings' cases about grammar and vocabulary and like speaking the right way, you know. You know, growing up, I was like, whatever, you know, like just let me let me live my life. Yeah, my mom freedom, come on. Um but I I had a knack for writing, and again, that's kind of my PR background as well. I learned how to refine my writing. Um, but uh in any case, you know, would get stuff published, um, and I I just hustled and would I was fortunate to have established a little bit of a network in media in my time in PR. So I knew many of the contacts, at least in the ski media scene, and then they know people that know people. And so from an editorial standpoint, I never have been a big like editorial assignment photographer, but in terms of like publishing spec imagery in the galleries of like um fly fishing publications and skiing and men's interests, so like outside or men's journal or whatever it might be, you know, like you need to have that out there to kind of put your name, you know, on the forefront and forefront and keep you visible. And then, you know, I would go to Barnes and Noble and I'd pick up the magazines off the the rack and I'd look at the advertisers and I'd look at, you know, what kind of imagery are they using? What kind of brand is this? Does this fit within my niche and what I'm comfortable doing? Do I feel like I could deliver a great product for these people? And then you just start reaching out, man. Go to trade shows, take take your portfolio, you know. Like I made a point of of having a book of work that was, I mean, it was like a freaking volume, you know, like it was a boat anchor that I was carrying around. It wasn't like this little goofy like flip chart, and it wasn't an iPad. I actually I had an iPad as well, but I had a hardbound, like hard case portfolio that's typically reserved for big-time advertising photographers. Like if you're going to any of the big ad agencies and showing your work, I mean, this used to be very common, it's not as common now, but you know, advertising photographers, we're talking, they make doctor money and beyond. Um, there is so much money in advertising photography. Um, and and you have these huge meetings, you know, with your agent and the whole team of creative people with the ad agencies, and they show you show your book is what it's called. You show your book, and maybe you're there in person, or maybe you've fedxed it overnight and it's got this fancy case or whatever it might be. Common in that scene, very uncommon in the bro walking the shore the the floor at OR or shot show or fill in the blank with any of the other outdoor trade shows. And so immediately, you know, I gave an impression of being very dialed, being very professional. It was like I'm huge on first impressions. You only get one, right? I'm huge on um like every every part of what you say and what you do and what you exude and what you emanate, that's your brand. That is what people think of you. So, you know, sometimes you can inflate that for the better, and sometimes like you can unfortunately like underserve yourself as well. So I was always like, I don't want to overinflate it, but I want to be polished. I want to be, I am I always thought of myself as a premium brand, and every part of that needed to say that. Like my business cards needed to look that way, my portfolio needed to look that way, my work needed to look that way. Um, and so yeah, man, made the rounds and slowly, but but surely, like I don't know that like as a freelancer, I'm not sure that you ever, if you ever say to yourself, I've made it, you're done. Um because no matter how long you've been doing it, no matter what your portfolio is, no matter how great your work is, no matter how legit your network is, you're a freelancer and nothing is ever given to you. It I had some, you know, the first time I lost like a really good client, one that I'd done really great work for, it was brutal for me. I was like, man, what what did I do wrong? And I I didn't really do anything wrong. Like they wanted, I I started charging more and they wanted they didn't want to pay that, you know. A, but B, it's the nature of photography in general for clients. It's like they might roll with you for three or four years, or if you're lucky, five, six, or seven, but you know, their look evolves, their style evolves, their approach evolves, and um, and you get different people in the the positions that are hiring, and so they have different taste, et cetera, et cetera. So it's it's a natural merry-go-round and a natural cycle. Um, but you know, I I think what what really gave me some assurance is that I'd made a living for three years, and then I'd made a living doing it for five years, and then I was at seven years, and no matter the fact that I didn't know where my income was coming more than three months out, I just did it and it would always work. And it's like, okay, look at invoices, look at uh like you know, outstanding invoices, look at what's coming up on the calendar. Oh dang, there's not a whole lot. I gotta hit the streets, I gotta hit the pavement. Um, and you just learn to to manage it and balance it and understand um what you need to continue making that living. But each, like let's just say each little little mountaintop that you climb and then like virtual or you know, whatever, um, we you gain a little bit more understanding and a little bit more confidence that helps you to continue, you know, on that successful path and journey.

Travel Highs And Family Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yeah, and it's like such a to me, it seems like such like a patient journey because A, you're develop like you're learning the entire time, you're working with great people, you're creating these great relationships, but at the same time, you still have to always be hungry. Always, always and and be able to do that. And I also love like I love how intentional you are about everything because I've seen people go down creative roads professionally. I've seen people try to make things work, but there's this like level of grit they kind of forget about and like almost just take it as it is instead of like take it as they want it to be. Right, right, and go out and make it happen. And it's like it's nice because like, for example, with the podcast, like there's only been one person who's looked me in the eyes and said, No, I will not be on the podcast. But it's nice too, because like I don't ask anybody for money, like there is nothing except like, hey, do you want to sit down and talk about the thing you're most passionate about? Be like, oh yeah, why not? And but it's so fun, but like I still have to like I look at my schedule, I look at see how many episodes I have, and I'm like, I I have to, I have to do something. I have to go talk to people, I have to do something. And if that these people, once they once you stop getting actionable, it's like um bias of action. Well, one yes, and then like there's one quote I always love from uh World War Z, but it's where Brad Pitt's in the apartment with the Mexican family, and they're like, he's like, we gotta go. And they're they're like, No, we gotta stay here. He's like, No, no, no, movimiento is vida, like movement is life, yeah, and you have to keep moving. Um, and then so I love that. So you like everything's kicking off, you have your brand, you're professional, everyone's recognizing this. I mean, is your wife at this time complaining about I mean traveling everywhere and being gone?

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Yes, so I mean, no, like she was such a trooper, right? And the way like I traveled a ton like in the come up, right? Like partly by choice, partly by necessity. I remember, you know, at one point in my career, I had been down to South America and the Southern Hemisphere three times in like eight weeks. I'd been to Antarctica and back, which is a long way down there. Um, I'd been to Patagonia and back, and I'd been to, oh, I don't even remember. There was something else. Um and on the one hand, it was like so rad. I was living, I was living my dream. Totally. Like I was seeing these places. My dream had always been to go to Antarctica, and I I did it. I found a way, I went down there, I taught workshops with another entity. It was unbelievable. I um, you know, I spent three weeks on a press trip in Patagonia for like heli fly fishing to these lakes and and taking ferries across, I don't know, waterways. And I mean, we were it was it was unreal, you know. I remember running, choking on my tongue at sunrise, running so hard to get this picture of like Torres del Paine National Park and like some memories that are just emblazoned in my mind. What I remember also is that I missed my family like crazy, right? And ultimately, like I am a family man. Family is number one, and that is something that I've always like the the hard thing about photography is it's a very selfish career. Like it's selfish in that you are I I mean, I I don't know that it's necessarily more selfish than others, but when we would go to dinner, like people are talking about my images and the place that I've been, and it it's almost like you're constantly feeding I won't say ego, but you're feeding an animal that becomes very used to it and accustomed to it. And I always wanted to uh be very careful that it wasn't always about me, but at the same time, it has to be if you're going to make a living for like it is so hard to do that you have to scratch and claw for everything. You have to be very selfish about what you're doing, or else you won't make it. Like you simply will not. You have to be somewhat I'm not gonna say egotistical or arrogant, you have to be very confident because if you truly don't believe in your heart of hearts that you're the best, then nobody else will. Yeah, and I say that you you gotta believe that you're the best with like a humble realization that there's a lot of bests out there, right? So a lot of people telling themselves the same thing. It's a it's a it's some balance, but in any case, traveling a ton and you know, it was awesome, it was sexy. The way that I equated it to was like a doctor goes to med school, a lawyer goes to law school, you know, a businessman gets his MBA um or a businesswoman. And um you gotta pay your dues no matter what. If you're not paying your dues, then then something's not right. Then then then the end goal, then the treasure is is not worth it. Because if it's if you're not paying your dues, then it it's too easy. Yeah. And if it's too easy, then everybody's doing it, right? And if everybody's doing it, then there's not much. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I really just and and we knew that. Um, we knew that I was paying my dues. It was a function of going not just where I wanted to, but where I had to. And as I progressed through my career, um the international trips and the traveling, it became more a product of choice and less a product of like obligation. Like you always gotta go ultimately where the work is, you know. But I started doing more and more shoots close to home. Like Utah's amazing for so many of my clients, right? And so instead of being like, oh, I want to go to this far corner of the globe, I was like, dude, I want to be at home eating leftovers with my family, and then you know, I'll get up early and go shoot, you know, this day and the next day for this client. But my perspective really changed. And also, you know, I had I had seen a lot of the places that I wanted to see. Um, but when you go to these cool places, you really kind of want to be surrounded. Like you want to be there with the people that you love. And I was working with amazing people and amazing teams, but I wanted my wife to be there. I wanted my boys to be there, you know. Um, so yeah, I I I ran that gamut and and truly the latter part of my career has been very focused on like work domestically, whether it's like in Utah or at least in the US. Maybe I take like one international trip a year. Usually it's a fishing trip, you know, to a rad destination. But I it's just I would rather be at home seeing my kids and hanging with my wife.

Why Utah Still Feels Like Home

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Yeah, I mean, like even going back to kind of the motivators that you had. I mean, the first one was you want to do what you love. Um I can't remember the second one. Maybe there's only two. But then the second was like, you want to provide for your family. Yeah. Like you, you want to give them the life that you want to. And like also, like one thing that came to mind is um last year, I remember I was sitting at this restaurant in Monterey, California. I was there, uh, me with my old partner, my friend and his wife, and then another my friend's friend from dental school and his wife that we ended up all like they had planned a trip and we ended up being there at the same time. So we're at dinner, and this guy, he's a pretty well-traveled individual. There you go. It's just under the couch a little bit. Um, and we were just kind of like talking about, we're just kind of all grateful in that moment. You know, we're in this beautiful place, great meal, great people, great conversation. And my friend, um, he just uh Adam is his name, he goes, I can't tell you how many times I've been to California. Like, probably better part of a hundred plus. Yeah. He's like, but and he's like, I've traveled so many places, done so many things. He's like, but I've realized none of it really matters unless you have people to share with and people you want to like hang out and do that with. And so you can do that. I mean, lone wolf, make it work, force it. But at the end of the day, there's gonna be a point where you look and say, like, I don't have anyone to do this with. And so it's so it's fun that that like it always comes back to the family for you and making it like also like if you're taking like if you're a I mean a landscape photographer or a skiing photographer or an action photographer, like there's probably somewhere in Utah we can do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

People come from all over the world to do it here, right? So you really just you gotta. I mean, you go through the phase of wanting to explore outside of your own backyard. But one of the things that I always say is that coming home, not just because I'm coming home to my family, but coming home to Utah was always the best part. It like so many people live wondering what else is out there, and that's good. It's good to have that curiosity, it's good to have that wanderlust, it's good to want to explore, but it's not good to have a grass is always greener like figment going on in your brain, right? And I have been fortunate to see so many amazing places on this planet in Utah is at the tip top, dude. And Salt Lake City, man, like with with what we have with yeah, dude, it just doesn't like the people, the culture, the accessibility. Where else can you like I live in Conwood Heights? It's 20 minutes to the airport, and it's 10 minutes to Snowbird. Like, what?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

You know, like please, someone like the yeah, 10 minutes on the right day without trying to no, I'm with you, and it's like, and I don't know if we've talked to you about this, but like, so I mean, Van Life last year, well, two years ago now, I guess, technically, but like six months, and like my whole idea is like I want to find the place I'm gonna be enamored with and it's gonna be this perfect home. But then at the end, it was like I'm really excited to go back to Utah. And I have like this new like that newfound passion PK with it because I'm like, this is place is so special, right? And it's fun because like there's so many people who are born and raised here, because like I mean, I don't know if you felt the same thing, but so many people that are born and raised here, they're like, I want to get out of here, I hate this, I hate the bubble, I hate all these things. And like, granted, Solik isn't perfect, and there's a lot of things, and we could probably all make a list of five things, and three of them would probably be the same. Yep, but it's still so amazing when you look holistically at everything and compare it to everything else, and especially having that access to everything and being able to go to Snowbird in 20 minutes, going to the airport in 20 minutes, especially for I mean, anybody who travels a lot and needs to do that. And it was funny, like like two things on that. Like one, I remember I was in, I was crossing the border in Montana to go up towards like Banff and Jasper. Yep. And the uh the uh border guy, he's like, Utah. I'm like, yep. He's like, why'd you leave Utah? Seriously, and I was like, I want to go see somewhere else. Like, gotta change it up eventually. He's like, Yeah, he's like, might as well not leave Utah. I was like, makes sense. But then also I was in, I think this was two years ago now. Um, I was in Hawaii golfing, and I was a solo with these three guys. I'm like, Oh, like what do you guys do? They're like, Oh, we're from Iowa, we work in finance. I'm like, Oh, how do you guys like living in Iowa? Like, we don't. We live there, it's cheap enough that we can go wherever we want to, whenever we want to. When we get sick of it, I'm like, that sounds like a great place to live.

Building Bolt Skin And Shave

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Like, cool. Yeah, I I mean, truly, a little perspective is all you need. Like, if you're not content in Utah, go sow your wild oats and you might find something else that works for you. But I would be really surprised, depending on especially if you're the outdoor recreational type. Um, you'd be hard pressed to find a better spot, a more beautiful spot. And and truly too, like, as much as I love like being outside, as much as I love the outdoors, I also kind of want a city in the amenities of a city nearby. I don't want like I love visiting New York, but I could never live in New York. So I don't want like skyscrapers, you know, to the moon. But I also don't want like a 20-minute drive to the grocery store.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

Yeah, you know, no, so I think it's it's like I mean it's the I mean I'm in the same way. Like I love city life hustle and bustle, all the amenities that come with it, the good food, the I mean, I mean, all of that. But at the same time, to your point, it's like the sweet spot of being like, oh, it's not a New York or like these huge cities, but it's also not like I mean, you have to drive 20 minutes or exactly. Um, but also want to come back to kind of your recent uh pursuit and endeavor that you've been working on a ton right now, Bolt. Yeah. So so tell us a little tell us a little bit about that and how maybe that got started.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah, man, I'm excited about this. So, you know, we've talked a lot about photography. It's wild. I'm I'm in a little bit of a transition here. So, you know, about uh I I guess the backstory, I've been a cyclist for a good part of my life, and I've shaved my legs forever. I've and so Bolt, it's called Bolt Skin and Shave. I'm launching a startup we launch in April, and it's gonna be the first brand to cater to men who shave their legs. There's a lot of men who shave their legs out there, you know, a lot of us who choose to live that smoother lifestyle. And so whether you're a cyclist or a swimmer, a triathlete, you know, obviously a lot of athletes do it, but believe it or not, studies show that 15% of men in the United States shave their legs. And that's a lot of people. There's 77. Million men in the U.S. between the ages of 15 and 60. So 15% of that. That's a lot of dudes that shave their legs. A lot of dudes. In any case, I've used a pink razor and a bar of soap forever. And had a moment like a couple years ago where I was at my wife's aunt's place in St. George. We were there on vacation for spring break or something. Grabbed a bottle of a skintimate shaving gel in the shower. Like violet rainbow flavor. I don't even know, you know, scent. And which smelled pretty freaking good, to be honest. To be honest. Yeah. And was shaving my legs. And I was like, dude, this is so much better than what I've been doing forever. There's a better way to do this. Men that shave their legs, we never we either learn from our girlfriend or our wife, or we just start hacking at our legs with a Venus razor or a face razor that doesn't work particularly well. So yeah, man, it's been full steam ahead. I've been working on it for about 12 months. I'm raising money, uh raising about 750 grand. You know, it's it's it's full on. Yeah. Um and have a razor manufacturer in Finland designed by a dude that used to work for Apple and Mercedes-Benz. The razor looks amazing. Um, it's you know, we're masculinizing what has been a largely feminine activity for a period of time. I got four skincare products to go along with the razor. We've got a shaved butter, a shave load, a post-shave lotion, an exfoliating leg scrub, and a CBD recovery balm that's being produced by a lab in New Jersey, so made here in America. Um, and you know, it's been so fun. I gotta be honest. I mean, it's very hard. It's very difficult, right? This is actually my full-time pursuit right now. I love that. Um, and it is really scary, and we're in this crazy limbo of trying to navigate because I can't straddle the fence of bolt and photography, because both require 100% dedication and commitment. And if you try and do both at the same time, then you'll do two things very average instead of one thing particularly well. So yeah, man, it's uh it's been really exciting. I feel like I'm excited about this like I was in the very first years of photography, and that I can't wait to get up every day because the world is my oyster with bolt. Totally. And I've had an entrepreneurial itch I've wanted to scratch for a long time. Um, I've been my own CEO and CMO. My wife has been the CFO always, right? Love that um for 15 years, and I'm I'm excited about applying that to uh to some different.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

And I love because it's so it's it's fun because it's also so different than what you've done before. I mean, like obviously there's gonna be overlaps of like business side marketing, brand, all of that stuff. And because you've been so involved in a lot of companies branding and like your experience in PR and marketing, it kind of comes together in this, but at the same time, like creating a product and managing all that's a very different experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Totally different. So you're spot on, you're spot on. Like where I'm very comfortable is in the marketing and the branding and the creative, right? And uh I could give you all the reasons for why I chose the name Bolt, and I could tell you about our colors and blue and yellow and why they're so bold and how they grab the attention of the consumer and how they look totally different from anything else on the target shelf or fill in the blank for all these things. I wake up every morning at three because I can't freaking sleep. My brain's going a million miles an hour, and I've jot down another idea for an idiot video or creative content that we're gonna put around Bolt that's you know, not so dumb that we lose all credibility, but just funny enough and self-deprecating enough that we can endear people to men who shave their legs. But to your point, um consumer package goods, the CPG space, like I've never manufactured anything. I don't work regularly with people on the other end, I don't understand tariffs and taxes, I don't um I've never put together a financial model. Um, believe it or like I put together pitch decks for my work all the time, but I've never put together like a full pitch deck for and and I can't like and I've I've never done never done so many of these things. But what I've told my investors and what I tell people that I'm pitching is my professional life for the last 15 years has revolved around three words, and they are figure it out. Yep. And I've figured it out, and I will figure it out with both, and I have versus where we were six months ago. It was they were just ideas on paper, and now I have a razor prototype in my hand and some amazing packaging that's akin to the unboxing experience of an iPhone or something like that, you know, and so things are starting to manifest themselves physically that we've been working on virtually for so long, and we've been through so many iterations of the lotion and you know the exfoliating leg scrub. And so you just I'm a sponge, man. I'm I'm soaking it all up, and I actually have found in the same way that I was with photography, where I was just devouring information and I couldn't get enough. That's really how it's been with entrepreneurship and startup and being a founder right now for me. Like I listen to podcasts in the shower, listen to podcasts like walking my dog, I'm reading books, I'm having conversations a billion times a day, same thing that I was with photography and talking to founders and getting their opinions. You know, I've had amazing conversations with I've had conversations with CEOs of publicly traded billion-dollar companies, and I've had conversations with, you know, guys that have failed in trying to put the whole plan and approach together, and um and I'm going for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:02

And I don't know if you can relate to this, because like I too had that voice in my head being like, hey, there's there's something else you need to be doing. And for me, it was always like, I do I need to start a business as entrepreneurial. I also have this like creative itch that I'm not scratched because I work in like data. Yeah. So, like, I mean, obviously there's creative in there, and there's like there's a whole other conversation we can have about that. But like I knew I needed to do something. Sure. And so this voice kept getting louder and louder and louder, and like I started painting, and that kind of like scratched it a little bit, but it was fun because like once like I started working on the podcast and got it going, like that voice went away. And instead of that voice like being, hey, you need to do something, it's like like it's like when you're talking about where it's like, hey, what about this idea? Or like, hey, what about if you go do this? Or like, what about that? Like, I like this voice a lot more. It's instead of being like, Hey, you're not doing something, it's like, hey, what about like go over here, do that, or do this.

Startup Stress And New Empathy

Fear Of Failure And Taking Action

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

Well, kudos to you for doing, right? Because like this world it rewards the doers, man. Like it's it's comfortable to be a a talker and a thinker, you know, it's uncomfortable to be a doer. And I think that's the bottom line is I want to do, and and I think it's human nature for the most part to want to do, but it's also human nature to pull back from what's risky and what's uncomfortable. And I I can honestly say that this process over the last year has been unbelievably humbling, and I have gained an immense amount of empathy for so many things. And one of those is actually like I always knew how great I had it as a photographer. I knew it, like quality of life absolutely through the roof. Um, you know, I worked for myself. Um, I'm able to call the things that I love work. One of the reasons that I started started shooting skiing is because I couldn't tell my wife that I was going and skiing pal like every day, but I could quote unquote go to work, yeah, you know, and and maybe ski some pal in the meantime. And and so I always knew that. But what I I what I didn't quite realize until now is how free my mind was of stress, like how emotionally free I was because I was doing what I loved every day. I became so accustomed to it that it became the norm. And now that I am outside of the comfort box, now that I am quite stressed about funding this project and meeting these deadlines and and the stress of the unknown, right? And providing for my kids and seeing my wife go back to work full-time so we can make this transition, it has made me uh uh incredibly empathetic to the people that maybe don't have that uh emotional and mental I'm not gonna say freedom, but the gift of not being emotionally and mentally stressed each and every day. And truly, like while it's hard, I'm grateful for that perspective and that reflection because I think relationships, like no matter what you're doing, I think relationships are the key to success. People want to work with and support and cheer for the people that they relate to and that they love, and not only people that they look up to and respect and admire, but the people that have shown interest and concern and uh admiration and love for them, right? Especially like in a genuine authentic way, reciprocation, right? And and and I think if I if we pull back, I think the key to relationships a lot of the time is empathy and being able to relate to what somebody if it's not empathy, it should be sympathy. But in a perfect world, it's empathy because the best way that you can relate to somebody else is having walked a mile in in their shoes in some way, shape, or form. Or there's key boots with no tongue. Correct. Yes, if you've ever done that, we are blood brothers and sisters. Thank you for that. Um so yeah, I it's it's been a wild, wild journey thus far. It's gonna get way more wild. Um, I feel like I've taken a step back in the sense that many of the struggles that I faced in the very early years of photography are what I'm facing now. But I also feel like I've taken a giant step forward because this felt like this felt like the right thing. I was ready for a transition. And I'm not, I'll never leave photography. And this felt like the right thing, you know. It's like I'll never leave photography, but I think more importantly, photography will never leave me. Um, it did take me a period of time to get right with like when I have a conversation with people for the last 15 years, the line has been I make my living in active lifestyle and outdoor photography. That's been my entire professional identity. Yep. And it's weird that I may not be saying that moving forward. Like, uh, but it's also incredibly exciting, and life is a journey, right? And I think you need to be open, I think you need to be open to what you were talking about is that that voice inside you. That's intuition. That is, that is call it fate, call it, you know, intuition, call it inspiration, call it whatever you want. But I think that by giving that voice the attention that it deserves, like we, that's where we find that emotional and that mental and and a lot of the time that physical freedom.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

I mean, without a doubt. Like so many people, and I don't know what it is right now in my life, but I have like so many friends that are just struggling. And the thing they're struggling with is like they don't know who they are, they don't know what to do, and they just feel like lost. Yeah. But like again, like if you can listen to yourself, listen to what you need inside, and especially that little voice, like it'll it'll take you back to where you need to go. But it's hard to find and listen to sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

And I and I and you're totally spot on. And I think that one of the business biggest reasons is because we're afraid of failure. Like, if I listen to this voice and if I take myself away from what I'm doing right now, well, what if? Well, quit asking, you know, what if in the in the negative sense, and maybe ask what if in the positive sense. Like start thinking, like, what if this is successful? What if I make this, if I undertake this new pursuit and and I fall in love with it, like I think I I will, you know, give that, give that voice an opportunity. You know, like so many of the times we we stay in that rut because we're just too lazy to get out of it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:44

Totally. And it takes work. And I was uh I was actually listening to this morning this morning. Um, I don't know if you're a fan of like Rick Rubin, but his book, The Creative Act, where it's I mean, just like a lot of kind of like mantras he's learned is who he is. And this morning he's talking about like the difference between like theory and practice, where in theory, in your head, you can think exactly how things are gonna turn out. You think everything's gonna be, and it's like to your point, that pessimistic voice of like, well, what if? Like, like, yeah, you could think whatever, but until it comes to practice, doesn't matter. And oftentimes theory and practice are two very different things. Like Oppenheimer's a great example where you give this guy who's this theorist, yeah, and then practice becomes a two very different things. Right. And so it's like, and it goes back to what we were talking about of like the doers versus the non-doers, like just do it. Like, even if it's like, I mean, like going back to like atomic habits, like two minutes a day, just give it two minutes of life, start kicking the idea down the road, and it'll start to make sense.

Bikes, Fishing, And Simple Joys

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

Yeah, a fail, right? Like, like look at I I was terrified of failure as an early photographer. I I felt like that would mean that I was not good at what I did. But you we will never, you'll never progress without failure. If you look at if I've learned to look at failure as a just truly like a stepping stone to your next success, right? Like the the word no, like no is just like another, I don't know, step to your next yes or whatever it might be. That was the worst butchering butchering of that saying ever. But I mean, be and really I think we're afraid to fail. It's ego, right? Like it's it's truly it's ego. In some cases, it might be a little bit more than that. There might be some financial component involved, but I would say 99% of our fear of failure is like an ego hit. And well, how will I look to the people around me? And how, you know, what is my family gonna think of me? And do the good people, the good people will recognize what it takes to put yourself in a position to potentially fail.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:37

And you don't know what they're gonna say until you do it, right? And you and like one thing I've learned ever like uh yeah, it's so funny once you start doing stuff, people will champion you, support you, do all these things. 100%. Um so and I'm obviously a big Utah fan. Yep, but if you're not working on razors or behind the lens, I mean, I imagine you still mountain bike ski, fish, all the things that you still love to do.

Guest Picks And Where To Find Him

SPEAKER_00 1:23:00

Yes, uh, you know, my boys are at such a fun age right now. My oldest is 17, then I've got an almost 15-year-old and an almost 12-year-old. So we spend a lot of time skiing. Um, fly like I love to fly fish as much as I love to ski. And I actually love to shoot fly fishing as much as I love to shoot anything. And that's where I was able to, over the years, carve out a really great niche and portfolio for myself. Um, so I love to fish. I've taken up and and I spend a lot of time on the bike. I've been a cyclist forever, and I've I've been a mountain biker my whole life, but it kind of took a backseat for a period of time. Um, and since my kids started racing uh like a couple years ago in Nica, man, I I fully have gotten back into mountain biking. I've done, I don't know if our listeners are familiar at all with Park City Point-to-Point, put on by Jay Burke up there in Park City. It's one of the foremost mountain bike endurance races in the U.S. It's 77 miles a single track and about 11,000 vert in a day. Um, it is an undertaking. And so I've done that last three years, and this last year was unreal. Like the best conditions ever. It was right on the verge of like, are we canceling part of the race? And like, do because it had been raining and and man, it was like temperature didn't get above 60 degrees, dirt was velcro, no dust. It may it's still a long day in the saddle, but you know, so I do a lot of mountain biking and dirt biking. Love to dirt bike, kind of picked that up last three or four years. It's it's a pretty natural transition from mountain biking to dirt biking. If you've been doing it much of your life, you just got to kind of learn about the application of power and and how to throw around a 240-pound machine and how to manage a 300, you know, CC engine. But ridiculous fun. I I I am incapable of uh of like undertaking a new pursuit and not going like balls to the wall. I I literally so like I did this race called Idaho City 100, which is a hundred miles of single track in a day on a moto. And and people think that like riding a dirt bike, it's like, oh, you're just twisting your wrist. Dude, it is I actually keep track of of my fitness a lot of the time when I'm riding a dirt bike, and I will burn more calories in two hours a lot of the time than I would on a road bike where I'm you know in zone four. Um it's it's wild how how fit you have to be. Um, or it's wild how much fitness it it takes to ride one of those like you want to. So in any case, I I've just kind of gone head over heels into dirt biking. I got a lot of buddies that have been in it for years and have tried to tried to do it for years and or tried to get me to do it for years. And and then, you know, just spending time, man. Spending time. Like my wife, we love to go skiing. Um, we play tennis a lot together. Uh, she is really taken to tennis in the last couple of years. And the little things, man, the little things are really enjoyable for me. Like having seen a bunch of the world and having I just I feel fortunate to have the mountains, like an amazing view of Little Conwood Canyon when I'm walking my dog like in evening light, you know? And I enjoy sitting on the couch and being lazy for a little bit now, for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:13

Yeah, just the gadget, bruh. Yeah. Um awesome, Adam. Well, I want to wrap up with two questions I was with. Uh, first, if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear their story, who would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Man, that's a good question. Let me think on this because there's so many guys. Um that you I truly I think you should Nathan Rafferty would be a really good one. Nathan is the president of Ski Utah. Yeah, that'd be a great one. Um, but he's ridden Dakar, like he's raced Dakar, and just to give you an idea, that's I want to say it's 14 days for uh and there's not a lot of privateers. You call him privateers that aren't like on a factory team, but he's done it on a on a dirt bike. He's ridden his moto all over the world, done these amazing stage races. Okay. Um, super interesting person. He hobnobs with the elite, and then um, you know, he's down in the dregs with people like me as well. Uh, but he's a he's a really interesting guy and really personable too. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:12

I'll hit him up. Yeah. And then secondly, if people want to find your photography, find more about bolts, where's the best place to find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

Yes, so photography, you can most of the time I'm I'm posting regularly to Instagram. It's just Adam Barker Photography. Uh, my website is adambarkerphotography.com as far as bolt, it's bolt like a lightning bolt, bolt skin and shave. Um on Instagram, it's bolt skin shave. Um, and then our website is boltshave.com. You'll see just a splash page right now. But uh yeah, if you're a man who shaves your legs, then you want to check that out for sure. And interestingly enough, my wife has been using the prototype for you know the last three months and she just quit using her other razors. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:55

No more skintimate, rainbow, beauty.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:57

No smells good, no, it's all like bergamot and sandalwood.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

Big fun, big fan of bergamot and sandalwood. There you go. Well, Adam, thanks so much for the time today. Yeah, man. Great combo. Excited for both to launch in April. Might have to start shaving my legs once it comes out. Give it at least one test drive. We're here for you, buddy. Thanks, Boz. Appreciate it.