Football in Saudi Arabia has been the subject of a lot attention in the last year due to the purchase of high profile players by Saudi teams. But how is the Saudi Pro League doing now that we're several months into the new season? Has it been successful so far? And what does the future of football look like in the Kingdom? To discuss this, co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to Aziz Alghassian and Eyad Alrefai, Saudi scholars and football fans. Aziz and Eyad discuss the football's domestic impact, particularly on Saudi Arabia's broader diversification strategy set out in Vision 2030. The panel also talks about the prospects for grassroots football and what hosting the 2034 World Cup may mean for the Kingdom.
Football in Saudi Arabia has been the subject of a lot attention in the last year due to the purchase of high profile players by Saudi teams. But how is the Saudi Pro League doing now that we're several months into the new season? Has it been successful so far? And what does the future of football look like in the Kingdom? To discuss this, co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to Aziz Alghassian and Eyad Alrefai, Saudi scholars and football fans. Aziz and Eyad discuss the football's domestic impact, particularly on Saudi Arabia's broader diversification strategy set out in Vision 2030. The panel also talks about the prospects for grassroots football and what hosting the 2034 World Cup may mean for the Kingdom.
Francesco Belcastro 00:10
Hello and welcome to FootPol, the podcast where football meets politics. I'm Dr. Francesco Belcastro, one of your co -hosts, and here with me is my co -host, Dr. Guy Burton. Hello, Guy.
Guy Burton 00:19
Hello, how are you? I'm good, good, good. So, yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 00:22
Are you feeling the festive spirit or not yet?
Guy Burton 00:25
Give me a little bit longer. I'm usually grumpy. I don't like to see Christmas decorations go up or Christmas songs start until the day before. So you can imagine, for the last couple of weeks it's been mad.
Francesco Belcastro 00:38
Well, hopefully today's episode will cheer you up. You've got a really, really good one. You know what the topic is today, Guy?
Guy Burton 00:44
Yes, we're going to be talking about football in Saudi Arabia. It's amazing we've waited this long, isn't it?
Francesco Belcastro 00:50
We have waited quite a while, but we needed to find the right guests. I think it was very important. I think we got them now. I'm fairly confident, really confident that we do.
Guy Burton 01:01
I'm hoping it's going to be a slightly different angle from the usual, because there's been so much said about Saudi Arabian football since the summer, hasn't there? Or actually even earlier, since Ronaldo went at the beginning of the year.
Guy Burton 01:13
So, yeah: talk about the guests.
Francesco Belcastro 01:16
Yeah, there's been a lot of talk about it, but we actually found two people that have been watching Saudi football live, I think, as well, and also two academics. They are Eyad Alrefai, who is a PhD student at Lancaster University.
Francesco Belcastro 01:29
Yeah, he's also a faculty member at King Abdulaziz University in Saudi Arabia, where he teaches politics, different subjects in the area of politics. He's also a football fan, and our other guest is Aziz Alghasian.
Francesco Belcastro 01:45
He holds a PhD from the University of Essex, he's an academic and also a commentator on different aspects of politics and international relations in the Middle East. Both of the guys have, let's say, a soft spot for European clubs, as well as for Saudi clubs.
Francesco Belcastro 02:03
Could we start by talking a bit about your football allegiance, Eyad and Aziz?
Guy Burton 02:08
Please, Eyad.
Eyad Alrefai 02:09
I'm a very big Liverpool fan, so I started supporting Liverpool when I was like around five years old. And when it comes to Saudi Arabia, I'm at the heart, the Jeddah fan. So if you ask me why I still a fan of Liverpool, even though Saudi Arabia is, you know, witnessing a very high development regarding football, well, I do have a very, you know, solid memories when it comes to Liverpool.
Eyad Alrefai 02:36
And I kind of have this sense of solidarity and also interesting sense of identity that might be, you know, discussed later when it comes to football. And, you know, your foundation era regarding, you know, knowing football.
Eyad Alrefai 02:52
So, so yeah, that's, that's my allegiance.
Francesco Belcastro 02:55
Aziz, how about yourself?
Aziz Alghasian 02:56
It's interesting because I well first I just want to say it's great to join you guys. Thank you very much for having me and it's good to join you yet. I think my football passion I think began in the late 90s, early 2000s, because I was brought up in the United States.
Aziz Alghasian 03:15
And then speaking of football, I was very much a follower of the other football, the NFL football and then I was a Cowboys fan. And then and then when I moved back to to Saudi, I that's when I first got introduced to different football European teams.
Aziz Alghasian 03:33
And I was just in love. The first team was Manchester United. And I was like, whoa, I don't know what they're doing, but it's awesome. And then and then I started seeing Real Madrid and then I started seeing Barcelona.
Aziz Alghasian 03:45
And it was those are the three teams. And then I was like, man, every time I see one of these teams, I say that's my favorite team. And then I'm like, right, I can't keep doing this. So I started, I chose Barcelona because of the colors.
Aziz Alghasian 03:59
So I was like the colors are so distinctive. So from 1999, 2000, that was my favorite team. And then I just never stopped following it.
Francesco Belcastro 04:07
And you're so a Saudi team, do you?
Aziz Alghasian 04:08
Oh, yeah, my my team is the Hillal team.
Aziz Alghasian 04:11
So in the family, it's quite a rival. It's kind of a touchy subject because there's some that are that are on the other side of the Nasser, which is where Ronaldo plays. And then I'm in the Hillal team, which my uncle used to work in.
Aziz Alghasian 04:27
I think he got my, my cousin to play for the team. So then my cousin was it was was a name the team in the 90s. And so Hillal was just basically the team, the team for me.
Guy Burton 04:40
Can I ask, I mean, because it's interesting that both of you have a European team and a Saudi team. And I imagine this is kind of something similar for many Saudis back in the country. And so this nature of this kind of very fluid ability to have identity that straddles home and abroad.
Guy Burton 04:58
I mean, where does it come from? Why do you think that, that is?
Eyad Alrefai 05:02
I think there is a distinctive culture when it comes to football and I think it's a global one. So you would find the same status if you go to Africa or if you go to a place like Indonesia, people would also support a local team and then an international one.
Eyad Alrefai 05:20
And that's very interesting because it's only, I think, a football dynamic. If you go to other sports, it's not similar, but when it comes to football and I think it's also, it's not a new thing. It's been the situation since the 1960s.
Eyad Alrefai 05:35
You have actually, when it comes to Liverpool, you will have Liverpool supporters clubs in different areas of the world. And those have very strong legacies. It's the norm in Saudi Arabia actually to have a local team and then an international one, mainly a European one.
Eyad Alrefai 05:54
But it's very interesting to witness this in the next few years, especially with Saudi teams competing on an international level. So it's very interesting to witness.
Francesco Belcastro 06:05
Can I ask you guys, how is the league going so far? It's been what, five months, four months into the new season? It's been obviously a very different one from the previous ones in terms of the Saudi League, just because of the attention that's been towards it as well as the new players.
Francesco Belcastro 06:20
What's your assessment? How is it going? Is it been successful so far?
Aziz Alghasian 06:24
It's been very successful and I think it achieved the the the objectives, the non -financial objectives in my opinion. So I think you have a great deal of excitement that is taking place here. I think what the decision makers wanted from bringing these massive names here and at least in discussions about bringing other names is that now it's starting to be an international league starting to be, you know, it's gained a lot of attention and it was just a few days ago and not even that I think it's just after Ronaldo started playing I was watching CNN and then all of a sudden Al Nassar played with this and the Ronaldo's Al Nassar and I was like that's the first time I think I've ever seen Al Nassar on on CNN so and talk about the Saudi League on CNN, so it's it's it's becoming very... it's becoming... they're achieving the overarching kind of objective. It's become a lot more competitive. I think really bigger teams have started to be, you know, started to see other... started to see more resistance, especially with you know other teams that... so all these players aren't gonna go... It's not like the Galactios of Real Madrid where all of them started going to one place. This is kind of like a league of Galactios you know, they just kind of spread it all over so it made it really interesting to to see there's more competition and more excitement around
Guy Burton 07:55
Okay. Can I ask Eyad, bring you in here? So, I mean, why has there been so much interest? Well, let's talk a little bit about why there's been so much interest in the Saudi League, hence why we're doing a podcast about it.
Guy Burton 08:06
Aziz has already alluded to the fact that see these non -financial elements that have been successful, but maybe you could talk a little bit about what was the motivation for all of this investment in the first place?
Guy Burton 08:17
I mean, which began at the start of the year with Cristiano Ronaldo arriving at Al -Hilal back in January. Could you tell us a little bit, provide some context to the listeners as to why the Saudis are doing this?
Eyad Alrefai 08:29
I think it's related to Saudi Vision 2030 project that wants to open up the society, open up the country to have more investments, to actually attract more people from globally. And I think football and sports sectors, I mean, when it comes to Saudi investments, it's not only related to football, but there are other investments in golf and in basketball and different kinds of sports.
Eyad Alrefai 08:59
So, yes, it's part of a program that goes really beyond football and it also goes beyond financial wins. Myself and Aziz went to Al Nasser and Abha match on the 5th of October, I think, and I actually was very impressed by the diversity of the fans.
Eyad Alrefai 09:23
I mean, I'm a football fan and I've been visiting football stadiums in Saudi Arabia, like in the last 30 years, I never seen such a diversity with young kids, male and female, you know, mingling with each other.
Eyad Alrefai 09:39
So, it's a very interesting scene to witness. So, that move is not only for financial gains, but also will help to open up the society because football is very big in Saudi Arabia. And I keep mentioning this that during the last 40 years when As -Sahua controlled Saudi Arabia, football stadiums were the only place for exhibition when it comes to the public.
Guy Burton 10:04
If I could bring Aziz in here, talking about the Agenda 2030 as being almost the motivation for this. But one of the things that I'm really struck by is that if you look at the Gulf states, Saudi Arabia is not unique in this respect of having a diversification strategy.
Guy Burton 10:20
I mean, all the other countries are doing it. Qatar is doing it. The UAE is doing it. Bahrain, Oman. I wonder to what extent the Saudis are the only ones who are doing it with some reference to sport.
Guy Burton 10:31
And is sport and football not really on the agenda for the other countries simply because they don't have kind of the football culture that Saudi Arabia has?
Aziz Alghasian 10:42
No, I think they do have the same culture that Saudi Arabia has. I mean, when you look at this, for example, I mean, it was a long go that Qatar was hosted the last year's World Cup. And also they were doing this, you know, a lot of a lot of the...
Aziz Alghasian 10:59
So what is taking place now? I remember in the early 2000s, I think Qatar was doing the same thing with the Al Gharafa and Al-Rayyan. I think it was... those are the teams. And for example, players like Batistuta was there.
Aziz Alghasian 11:15
And so they, you know, in others and even Pep Guardiola, Pep Guardiola then ended up going there. So the thing is the other Gulf countries, Qatar, UAE in particular, they started their diversification a lot earlier than Saudi Arabia.
Aziz Alghasian 11:38
And this is the issue and is that and also there while they have big politics and they have agency, I think the Saudi agenda and the Saudi scope is a lot bigger. It's a lot bigger. It is a bigger country.
Aziz Alghasian 11:55
You know, it is a bigger country. It is a bigger responsibility. So everything has to be grander. And the fact that, you know, for Saudi now, you know, this excitement speaks to something else. It speaks to, one can also say an urgency, an overarching urgency that's taking place in the region now, that, you know, this is, we have to start diversifying.
Aziz Alghasian 12:18
Otherwise, it is not... I mean, it's going to be too late for us. So we're going to, we're going to really reach an obstacle in our rebuilding process of our economy and the state. So, I mean, of course, now, while I don't want to talk too much about politics, but for example, currently, unfortunately, there's a against a backdrop of this.
Aziz Alghasian 12:44
There's a war on Gaza. And, you know, some people have been asking, well, why Saudi Arabia not stopping these real season, for example, and all this kind of tourism, domestic tourism that's taking place.
Aziz Alghasian 12:58
And the reality is that this, this is not a desire for Saudi Arabia. Saudi, you know, the economy and stimulating the economy is not a preference. It's an existential question. The reconstructing its economy, diversifying its economy, social reforms.
Aziz Alghasian 13:19
This is an existential question that Saudi Arabia, you know, they have to do this now. They already feel like it's too late. The benefit that the other Gulf States had is that they started a lot earlier, you know, and that's why there's actually inter GCC discussion of who is mimicking who.
Aziz Alghasian 13:36
And actually, who has the benefit of, you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of attention is being paid on Saudi. But sometimes others will say, hey, you know, we're the ones that started this. But I think they started it with a lot less intensity than Saudi Arabia does for the reasons I just mentioned.
Eyad Alrefai 14:00
Just to add on this point, they were also in the UAE and Qatar, they were also attracting and really targeting Saudi football fans because Saudi Arabia is the backbone when it comes to people in the Gulf.
Eyad Alrefai 14:12
So they were also attracting Saudi Arabia when it comes to what they have done since 2000 until 2010.
Aziz Alghasian 14:20
And some big players.
Eyad Alrefai 14:21
Yes, you're right.
Aziz Alghasian 14:22
And they were trying to get players too. Yasab Gahdani, right?
Eyad Alrefai 14:25
Yes.
Aziz Alghasian 14:25
Yasab Gahdani, he also tried to go there.
Francesco Belcastro 14:29
That's very interesting and I think a lot of listeners wouldn't know that. Could they perhaps go back to Eyad's point earlier? Because while it's true that these investments are new, as you guys kind of alluded to, unlike other countries that we mentioned, Saudi Arabia has got a long history of football and has got quite a strong sort of history of internal dynamics with regional rivalries or intercity rivalries.
Francesco Belcastro 14:52
What effect does this new league setup and this new investment have on the kind of old differences? Are we still seeing the main clubs dominating? Are we still seeing the same rivalries? Or has this changed completely?
Eyad Alrefai 15:08
Well, it's really growing more, you know, more competitive actually between the four big old four clubs who are Al Nasser and Al Hilal from Riyadh and Al Etihad and Al Ahli from Jeddah. I mean, I'm just witnessing what is going on on Twitter.
Eyad Alrefai 15:27
I mean, it's on X right now, not Twitter. It's very interesting discussions that is going on in the Saudi society between those clubs. And I just witnessed last night a Twitter space that had around 10 ,000 listeners.
Eyad Alrefai 15:44
So more than all the political spaces on Twitter when it comes to the Saudi society, they had more followers on the sport. The space that was discussing this week, today's matches between Al Etihad and Al Ettifaq.
Eyad Alrefai 15:59
And Al Ettifaq is actually an interesting case to discuss. So Al Ettifaq was not a very big club. It was a mid -level club in the Saudi football. It's really, you know, it achieved two leagues. However, this year with Steven Gerard coming in and the club have been seen very interesting, successful story that continues.
Eyad Alrefai 16:26
So they are in the third position right now, which is interesting to witness. And they have been more successful when it comes to attracting new and young players. They have the Demarai [Gray], who is the young English player.
Eyad Alrefai 16:40
They have also a defender who used to play also in the Premier League. He is young. He's around 24. I forgot his name. However, they are attracting, you know, different level of players and it is, you know, proving to be successful story.
Eyad Alrefai 16:57
So I would add. Is that Jordan Henderson's club? Yes, you're right. That's right.
Francesco Belcastro 17:02
It's gonna be a Liverpool taste to it.
Eyad Alrefai 17:03
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 17:04
That's why you are talking favorably.
Eyad Alrefai 17:06
Yeah, I'm mean...
Eyad Alrefai 17:08
Actually, Steven Gerard is really being interesting in the last three months when it comes to the Saudi football scene. He's been hosted in different platforms and been saying promising stuff when it comes to his future in Saudi Arabia.
Eyad Alrefai 17:24
So that's a story to be discussed later.
Guy Burton 17:27
But that's what you say, Eyad, is very interesting about the character, the nature of the players that are going over right now. Because one of the things that I suppose some people have looked at this investment or this activity on the Saudi side and said, isn't this just what the Chinese Super League was doing a decade ago or before that, the Americans back in the 70s when they brought Pele over.
Guy Burton 17:54
But I think a lot of those players were kind of coming to the end of their careers rather than starting out. So it's quite striking what you say about it being younger players that they're also bringing in.
Aziz Alghasian 18:05
Just to add to your point, Guy, if I may, this is actually also, Saudi done this before. They're not new to kind of bringing big names. That may be towards the end of their careers, yes, but the big names.
Aziz Alghasian 18:20
So I think one of the first big names came, I think was in the 70s with Rivelino. And that was the time that became, that was like a big, you know, a massive thing. And apparently it was said that, I think they wanted them to come, but then there were kind of debating of who would pay for the situation.
Aziz Alghasian 18:45
And then there was kind of this kind of confusion taking place. But at the end, I think it was, of course the state intervened and then they paid them. Just, you know, but I think that, so Saudi did try to bring these big names before. There are precedents in Saudi...
Aziz Alghasian 19:02
Saudi, I think, the football history. However, I think now what they're trying to do is they're trying to institutionalize it a lot more. And I think they're really investing in it. So they're actually investing in the league, in the quality of the league through bringing these names rather than investing in individuals only.
Aziz Alghasian 19:21
And I think this is precisely what makes it different. So there is this precedent of spending money, but this is now a lot more investing the league, trying to make it something, trying to make it a hub, a regional hub for football.
Francesco Belcastro 19:36
I think that in Vision 2030 is also like a view of developing the domestic football also at grassroot level, right? So there's this idea that players, big players in the country also inspire young people to play football.
Francesco Belcastro 19:49
So it's not only like the sort of flashy aspect, there's also like a kind of almost public health dimension to it. Is that correct?
Eyad Alrefai 19:55
Yes indeed, so Saudi Arabia has a very significant percentage of obesity and also of illness that are related to obesity. So it is one of the targets of the sports agenda to have more actually healthy society.
Eyad Alrefai 20:15
And that can be seen not only when it comes to football, but also when it comes to different sports. So right now in Saudi Arabia would find multiple parks in all the cities that have sports facilities for free to be used by the public.
Eyad Alrefai 20:31
And they would have this encouragement actually in science when you go to a mall or when you go to a shopping place. Science that really supports having more physical movement when it comes to the public.
Eyad Alrefai 20:46
So this comes in hand actually with and I would also add to this that all of this really related to Vision 2030. So it is a package. And as Aziz said, Saudi Arabia had a history of having famous players.
Eyad Alrefai 21:03
However, with the social liberalization, it is more attractive to come to Saudi Arabia. And in the past, Saudi Arabia wasn't very attractive for international players because it was a very closed society.
Eyad Alrefai 21:17
Right now they have this incentive that it is more liberal. So that would help with having more significant players. But that's the health angle is very significant when it comes to the agenda of sports.
Guy Burton 21:35
If memory serves me, back in the UK, they were putting forward or the government was supporting the bid for the London Olympics back in 2012, an important component of the bid was: what's the legacy going to be?
Guy Burton 21:49
The legacy wasn't just going to be about elite sports, but also encouraging more grassroots sporting activity. Although, when you look at the data from a decade on, the results have not been positive.
Guy Burton 22:02
Maybe partly because of austerity in the UK, so cutting of public spending. What you're saying about there being more investment at the grassroots, more park- park space, that's quite interesting and quite striking.
Guy Burton 22:16
I guess one question I would have to that is, given where Saudi Arabia is and for a large part of the year, it is a very hot place, very difficult to go out in the middle of the day and do this kind of thing.
Guy Burton 22:32
So how do we get around that? How do we encourage more sporting activity, given the way Saudi Arabia is?
Eyad Alrefai 22:42
So there is a very interesting example that took place last month or in September, actually 2023, which is the Cool Olympic Games. So they have around 30 or 40 schools around Saudi Arabia. They have their Olympic Games in a closed stadium or closed arena that would be doable in Saudi Arabia, especially during the summer because it's very harsh summer.
Eyad Alrefai 23:11
We got in Saudi Arabia, it gets to 50 or more than 55 degrees. So yeah, they have this closed arenas and they are actually building more of this because they are going to host the next World Cup that we might going to discuss later.
Eyad Alrefai 23:28
So that's the way to challenge this. Otherwise, it is very difficult with the environment in Saudi Arabia.
Aziz Alghasian 23:36
We also like to play at night. We are night creatures. That's right. Yeah, and everything is really done at night. Even work is at night. So not only football, but even brains don't tend to work very well in the heat.
Aziz Alghasian 23:51
So we tend to, a lot of the games, that's why a lot of the games are either in the afternoon, late afternoon, or mostly in the evenings, around eight, nine. And it's interesting that it's always kind of after Isha pryer, after the last prayer, which means it doesn't get interrupted sometimes, but for prayers, but it's, yea
Aziz Alghasian 24:17
And I think it's a lot more manageable whether when it's at night.
Guy Burton 24:23
You know, Eyad alluded to the Saudi Arabia getting the 2034 World Cup. So I wonder if we can talk a little bit about that. I mean, what are the next steps? What is the government going to be doing now?
Guy Burton 24:34
Because you mentioned a little bit about the stadiums, you know, sort of that they're being sort of closed for, you know, sort of grass roots, sporting activities, but presumably there's going to be a massive rebuild or reconstruction of existing stadiums.
Guy Burton 24:48
Is that going to be the case? Or are they just going to sort of renovate what's what's what's already out there? And I guess also, I mean, are we going to see changes to the football calendar again? I mean, are we going to have right now the Asian games or is sort of timed for the same time as when the World Cup would happen?
Guy Burton 25:05
So there's a bit of a problem in terms of timing, maybe moving it from the subtle and we've just talked about it, you know, sort of the World Cup normally being a summer event, turning that into a winter one.
Guy Burton 25:15
So, Eyad, please.
Eyad Alrefai 25:18
I mean, they are, so the plan is, Saudi Arabia will have around the 27 stadiums when 20, I mean, when 2034 arrives, 10 that already are built, but they are going to be redeveloped, and 17 they are going to be, you know, newly built.
Eyad Alrefai 25:43
So those, some of them, some of them will be closed stadiums, and some of them would have air conditioning facilities. I would think that the World Cup would be in November or December or in the winter months, because it's not all only for football players, but also for fans who are going to attend the Saudi Arabia, it is going to be very challenging to have those fans, you know, coming to Saudi Arabia in the summer.
Eyad Alrefai 26:13
So it would help also for having the fans coming and also for financial reasons, not only for sporting reasons. So they have actually around 10 stadiums that they are going to redevelop, and 17 new stadiums that are going to build, because they are going, Saudi Arabia, the Asian Cup, going to be hosted in 2027, so they need to have both stadiums ready by 20... 2027, at least the 10 that they are going to redevelop.
Guy Burton 26:44
And they're going to do 48 team competition as well.
Eyad Alrefai 26:46
Indeed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 26:49
Now obviously from a kind of Western perspective, there's been quite a lot of criticism of the use of sport and the term sport washing, which has been applied to Saudi Arabia as well as to other countries.
Francesco Belcastro 27:02
But we were wondering, sort of seeing from the other side, we have had Saudi teams traveling around Asia, with their, you know, big stars for the Asian Champions League, and we will have the World Cup in Saudi Arabia in 2034.
Francesco Belcastro 27:19
What's the view from policymakers and from academics like yourself in Saudi Arabia? Has that been successful so far? The use of sport as a policy tool? I wouldn't use sport washing because I think it's got the negative connotations.
Francesco Belcastro 27:34
I'm going to go for sport as a policy tool as a more neutral thing. Is it working, you'd say? What's your assessment? Obviously, it's very early days.
Aziz Alghasian 27:43
I think in my opinion, it's clear that it's becoming a vehicle for the internationalization of Saudi Arabia. That's what the policymakers really want. They want to make sure that Saudi's open for business and also that investing in something that I think a lot of people could coalesce around in Saudi domestically.
Aziz Alghasian 28:10
And also the fact that this is an illustration of entering into the markets, into things that many Saudis can see. When many Saudis view goes back to one of the earlier points of very kind of world -class leagues like the Premier League, and then all of a sudden you see noon, a Saudi company, and then you see Newcastle.
Aziz Alghasian 28:33
And it's like saying, well, we are competing here. And I think slowly but surely they are dancing to the tune that the Saudi elite want to hear. Because I think the language that they're investing in, or the language that they want is investment.
Aziz Alghasian 28:53
And Saudi foreign policy is really becoming now more economic driven more than anything. So I think it's very much playing into really what they would want. So although it's early days to see the raw data and comparing and contrasting, for now I don't think they would be too eager to see exactly how much profit and benefit they've made.
Aziz Alghasian 29:19
I think they're not looking for profit at this stage. I think they're looking far more for impact. And I think that's already being made.
Eyad Alrefai 29:28
Just so I would add something on when it comes to policymakers, it's been very interesting to follow how Saudi teams, Saudi football teams being received in different Arab countries or Middle Eastern countries with those big names like Christiano Ronaldo and Karim Benzema.
Eyad Alrefai 29:45
It's very interesting when Al -Ittihad and Al -Nasr were Benzema players and Al -Nasr were Christiano Ronaldo players. When they visited Tehran and Iran, Esfahan and Tehran, they were received by the governor of Tehran and the governor of Esfahan.
Eyad Alrefai 30:04
Actually, Christiano Ronaldo was very celebrated publicly and many company leaders and many societal, let's say from the elite class in Iran visited Ronaldo and visited Al -Nasr. So that's very interesting dynamic and the Saudi ambassador actually hosted them in two receptions, which is very interesting.
Eyad Alrefai 30:27
So it is almost a political treatment rather than a sports treatment. So actually, even with this celebratory reception of Al -Ittihad and Al -Nasr in Iran, they had very interesting and very also negative experience.
Eyad Alrefai 30:43
Al -Ittihad game against, I think, Esfahan was interrupted by a statue of Qasem Soleimani was placed in the stadium. So Al -Ittihad players and its administration refused to play because this goes against the FIFA laws of not having political and religious flags or statues in these stadiums.
Eyad Alrefai 31:10
So actually, in the last two weeks, the Asian Federation decided to give Al -Ittihad the three points of that match. So that's how it ended up that case. But the Iranian team is going to play with Al -Ittihad in next week.
Eyad Alrefai 31:26
So that is a positive thing to have. So it did not went very negative when it comes to the relationship of both federations and actually the Saudi and the Iranian Federation met a week after that incident to review it and to have more collaboration between both of the federations.
Francesco Belcastro 31:50
Maybe it's a sign that football reflects the shift in dynamics in the region, isn't it? That's very interesting.
Eyad Alrefai 31:55
Yes, indeed. Interesting, yeah.
Aziz Alghasian 31:57
I just want to make, I mean, he had mentioned one point about the kind of the political signs and insignia and etc. And I just wanted to say this because I think in the past few weeks, I know it's not in, well, it's something about the Middle East and a different dimension about the football and politics in the Middle East.
Aziz Alghasian 32:16
So I think in Liverpool, there was kind of a massive, there was a viral video that went online about, I think, someone in the stands having a Palestinian flag. And then they were, they were kind of told to remove it.
Aziz Alghasian 32:32
And then the person said, well, when you're telling, but, you know, you don't want to show any signs. But when it was against the in the war of Ukraine last year, Ukraine was literally plastered everywhere.
Aziz Alghasian 32:46
And, and I think this is something that many people are picking up on. And I think it's just how, because this goes into sports washing also, you know, is that there is a contradiction a lot of times in what kind of political symbol, symbolisms can be used and other political symbolisms can be not used.
Aziz Alghasian 33:06
And also this kind of speaks to another point about sports washing is that when is it sports washing and when is it kind of investment and just cultivating a real culture. I mean, I heard something very insulting that Roy Keane said... he said football shouldn't be here when when he was talking about commentating on... on the and Qatar World Cup, how people, you know, they treat football as very universal and for everyone, but it's not really for everyone.
Aziz Alghasian 33:37
And I think there's like a hegemonization of who gets to be part of the football family and who isn't. And then, and we're here in the Middle East, we're really trying to, we're struggling. I won't say we're struggling, but where there is the struggle of being considered on par with with other kind of football legacies around the world and it just speaks to perhaps an implicit asymmetry there and the perception so it speaks to a bigger thing.
Aziz Alghasian 34:03
That's all, that's all.
Francesco Belcastro 34:05
Roy Keene, if you're listening, we are inviting you to a podcast duel with Aziz. Later on, get in touch!
Aziz Alghasian 34:13
You're gonna slide tackle me and try to get my knees out.
Francesco Belcastro 34:15
I'm sure you can fight back.
Guy Burton 34:21
So can I just ask whether or not the current war in Gaza is being manifested in any way in Saudi football?
Aziz Alghasian 34:32
In my opinion, not really. I don't see it being manifested clearly or explicitly in Saudi football.
Guy Burton 34:43
Mm -hmm.
Eyad Alrefai 34:44
Yes, and this goes with the political culture of the society. It is not when it comes to football, it is not very preferred by the government or by the teams themselves to, to attach any political, you know, status to football matches.
Eyad Alrefai 35:06
So it's it's very, you know, very significant and very also so debated issue when it when it comes to Saudi football stadiums and it's not actually new. It's been it's been the case since the last 40 or 50 years.
Eyad Alrefai 35:21
Should you know, should we have political status when it comes to football or should we isolate between football and politics? And actually, this is, you know, the the the controlling narrative right now.
Eyad Alrefai 35:35
Football shouldn't be mixed with politics.
Francesco Belcastro 35:39
That's so interesting and I think it'd be interesting to see if that continues, if the game becomes more popular, whether it's difficult to sort of isolate it from these, yeah, different views, I would say.
Francesco Belcastro 35:51
All right, well, thank you very much. It's been really, really fascinating. Thanks for your time. We will have to have you back later on as the World Cup preparation start to get some feedback on that.
Francesco Belcastro 36:04
Guy, do you want to add something?
Guy Burton 36:07
Well, yes, I hope we're not gonna have to wait, you know, 13 years until whenever the 2034 World Cup is before we have them back on, whether we're still going out by that point. But yeah, just to sort of say, thank you so much, both Eyad and Aziz for coming on and sharing what you've told us.
Guy Burton 36:23
Just to say that, as ever, we are more than welcome and you know, keen to hear from listeners as to what they thought about the episodes, whether they've got any ideas of episodes they'd like us to do, people that they'd like us to talk to, and you can reach out to us on all the various social media that we use, which is Twitter or X, as it's now called, Blue Sky, Facebook, and we even have an Instagram account.
Guy Burton 36:45
It just leaves it for me to say, Francesco, what are we talking about next week?
Francesco Belcastro 36:49
So next week we're talking to Scott Coyne of the Belgium Football Podcast, the podcast that follows the game down there in Belgium. And we also need to remind our listeners of something else. If they like the podcast, what should they do, Guy?
Guy Burton 37:03
Ah yes, yes. Please like it, review it, subscribe to it, share it, make people listen to it. Would really appreciate it. So thank you very much.
Francesco Belcastro 37:16
And we were expecting an email from Roy Keane anytime soon, right?
Guy Burton 37:21
I feel... I'm scared already. Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you again, Eyad and Aziz and look forward to seeing you again next week, Francesco.
Aziz Alghasian 37:30
Thank you guys, really pleasure to talk to you.
Francesco Belcastro 37:32
Join the next next Monday our listeners remind them we're gonna be back next Monday with a very cool episode as well Take care. Bye. Bye