Football fans are often at the centre of media and public opinion attention: condemned as violent and anti-social or applauded for their contribution to the atmosphere in stadiums around the world. But are football fans 'political actors'? If so, what is their politics? In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to journalist James Montague, author of several books on football fans including the widely acclaimed 1312: Among the Ultras. James explains how, while the roots of modern Ultras culture can be traced in Italy, the phenomenon is truly a global one. James also explains how the culture, values and structure of organised supporters often makes them important political actors in their own rights, and how their interest in politics takes different forms around the world.
Football fans are often at the centre of media and public opinion attention: condemned as violent and anti-social or applauded for their contribution to the atmosphere in stadiums around the world. But are football fans 'political actors'? If so, what is their politics? In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to journalist James Montague, author of several books on football fans including the widely acclaimed 1312: Among the Ultras. James explains how, while the roots of modern Ultras culture can be traced in Italy, the phenomenon is truly a global one. James also explains how the culture, values and structure of organised supporters often makes them important political actors in their own rights, and how their interest in politics takes different forms around the world.
Francesco Belcastro 00:08
Hello and welcome to a new episode of football, the podcast where football needs politics. I'm Dr. Francesco Belcastro and here with me is my co -host Dr. Guy Burton. Hello Guy!
Guy Burton 00:17
Hi, Francesco, how are you doing?
Francesco Belcastro 00:19
I'm fine. I've heard that you absolutely broke the bank to buy a new cool laptop and now you cannot connect the microphone. Is that true?
Guy Burton 00:25
Don't tell the listeners that!
Francesco Belcastro 00:29
Is that why we can't hear you very well, Guy?
Guy Burton 00:31
Yeah, I know it's very poor, very poor, but there you go. We'll get it sorted out by next week. So tell me, Francesco, what are we talking about this week?
Francesco Belcastro 00:38
Today we've got a fascinating topic and a great guest. So today the topic is the politics of football ultras. We're gonna be covering different aspects of it and different regions of the world, which I think is great for listeners who might be interested in the Middle East or Europe or other parts of the world or Indonesia.
Francesco Belcastro 00:55
And we got an excellent guest to do that, James Montague. A lot of listeners will be familiar with James' work. James is a journalist and an analyst. He has published four books on different aspects of football, fun culture in particular, but not only.
Francesco Belcastro 01:12
He's also a contributor on different publications. He's reported extensively for the New York Times, CNN, Tifo, BBC. His work has appeared in several newspapers and he's the founding editor of Delayed Gratification, which is the first, the world's first slow journalism magazine.
Francesco Belcastro 01:31
Welcome, James, how are you?
James Montague 01:33
Thanks for having me on, yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 01:34
Let's start with a sort of broad generic question, if that's okay. I mean, you've worked extensively on supporters, particularly on the ultras and organized fans more in general.
Francesco Belcastro 01:44
Can we talk a bit about the roots of the so -called ultras culture? I mean, and also are we talking about kind of a single phenomenon that started someone and spread around the world? Or is it more kind of a series of different regional trends that we kind of bring together?
James Montague 01:59
It's kind of both, which is kind of a weird thing to say. I mean, on the one hand, you do have, there is a birthplace of ultra culture, which people will associate with Italy. And that emerges out of kind of Italian culture.
James Montague 02:12
I mean, ultra comes from the Latin comes from the Italian to go beyond. Right. So what we see today is modern ultra culture. I mean, the aesthetic, the language in many cases, certainly the organizational principles of it.
James Montague 02:26
Most of the aesthetic comes from Italian ultra movement, which kind of emerges in the late 50s and 60s, popularized in the 70s and 80s and becomes kind of globally famous in the 1990s. But if you look at where this idea of fans becoming engaged and becoming obsessively engaged as a participant in the spectacle, then you have to go back to the start of the 20th century to Uruguay and the club, Nacional, where there is a kind of, there is almost, you know, Patient Zero of the kind of ultra's apocalypse happens, you know, there.
James Montague 03:00
And there's a character there who's the guy who blows up the balls. Miguel Prudencio Reyes, who's... He's the guy who blows up the balls. That's what his job is. And he's kind of, he also kind of goes crazy pitch side during Nacional games.
James Montague 03:17
And what's kind of interesting about this guy is that at the time, football in Uruguay was like going to the opera. People got dressed up. People went and watched the match. They applauded very politely.
James Montague 03:29
It was a very genteel game. It was very, you know, almost middle class type of attraction. And this guy brings kind of a lack of decorum and kind of passion and, you know, breaking that kind of fourth wall with the pitch where, I mean, he doesn't actually get onto the pitch, but in terms of kind of it's infectious.
James Montague 03:52
And so Nacional starts to have this kind of atmosphere that players respond to it and they start playing better and they want more of that. And yeah, what more does it, you know, there's an exchange.
James Montague 04:04
And at that time, at the beginning of the 20th century, like in the 1910s, they start going to playing in River Plate. They play across the River Plate. They go play in Boca in Buenos Aires, you know, and other clubs.
James Montague 04:17
And this starts to spread all through Argentina. And interestingly, what you have in Argentina, if you go to the Boca neighborhood, the Boca neighborhood, they take this, you know, they've got something kind of bubbling at the same time as all because they're, you know, is the vast majority of people, they have Italian descent.
James Montague 04:33
They've come from Italy on boats for a better life. And this finds fertile soil and explodes into what we now see is the barras bravas culture, which is not ultra culture, but is very, very similar and very definitely has a very Italian feel to it, in many respects.
James Montague 04:52
And at the same time, you also have the torcida culture, which kind of comes out of Brazil a little bit earlier. So there are multiple places where this is happening, but at the same time, it is kind of connected.
James Montague 05:08
And then it's kind of, you know, it becomes a huge South American cultural phenomenon, whether it's in the Portuguese part of South America or the Spanish speaking part of South America. And then after the 1950 World Cup, it kind of migrates back to Europe, to Croatia via the Yugoslav National Team who go to the World Cup.
James Montague 05:29
The Croatian players on the team hear this noise going on at the Maracana by one of the biggest torcidas from Flamengo, who, you know, one of the leaders brought on board to be the fan leader for the whole Brazilian national team.
James Montague 05:44
They make this incredible noise, apparently, the one one of the players describes it as it's a machine that stomps. And he says, we've got to bring this back. They describe it, not even they don't have a recording of it.
James Montague 05:55
They describe this noise to people back in Split, where a lot of these players play for the play for Hadjuk, on the Adriatic Coast. And then what happens is they recreate this noise for the title decider against Red Star Belgrade in the 50 -51 season.
James Montague 06:10
And it's so raucous, Hadjuk win, but it creates a political crisis in the new Yugoslavia because they see it as a rise of kind of Croatian nationalism, which they've just they've just kind of stamped out with the end of the Ustase and the reconvening of Yugoslavia under Tito.
James Montague 06:31
So, you know, it's banned after one game by the authorities in Belgrade. So it kind of makes a circuitous root and then it finds landfall back in Europe and eventually, you know, where it finds the the, you know, its roots in Europe that kind of go on further than that is in Italy kind of a decade later.
James Montague 06:53
So it's a really interesting when I was looking at the kind of birth of of Ultras, it's a story of globalization, right? And with which cultural influences take place. I mean, people think globalization is a fairly modern phenomenon.
James Montague 07:08
Of course, it's not. It's just the speed at which globalization takes place is a modern phenomenon. And so you have essentially something that moves through people, right, and word of mouth and then through, you know, the speed at which a boat can cross an ocean and then through radio and then television.
James Montague 07:27
And ultimately the internet. And that's what takes ultra culture from a localized phenomenon, which is still in many respects is a localized phenomenon, but with a global appeal and becomes something that influences curves now, whether it's in Indonesia, in North Africa, Eastern Europe, where it's found very fertile soil.
James Montague 07:48
So it's it's it's a fascinating example, I think, in a fascinating way of looking at how how a message and how a culture can spread.
Francesco Belcastro 07:58
Guy who is Anglo -Brazilian Flamengo fan is going to take out this: that Flamengo founded the ultras culture. That's going to be it! Guy is going to say, James, like I said, that Flamengo started the Ultras culture!
Guy Burton 08:12
Flamengo started it. But no, no I, but the question I want to ask you, James, because one thing you mentioned was that you have the barras bravas down in Buenos Aires, you have the torcidas in Brazil. And yet you say there are similarities, but there's also something slightly different about each of them as well.
Guy Burton 08:25
And they're not exactly like the ultras. So what is it about the torcidas and the Barras that's different from the ultras?
James Montague 08:32
If we talk about Italian ultras for instance for a second, right? We talk about the bell towers and the campeonismo, right? This is the representation of our town our City our neighborhood our bell tower, right?
James Montague 08:42
And and what it does that that little curve at the stadium is is representative of a very local geography. And that's exactly the same when it comes to the difference between Brazilian, sorry, Portuguese speaking South America and Spanish speaking South America, you know. They are very they are very different cultures and they bring with it very different sounds aesthetics organizational principles histories where where they came from and why they came from that I mean if you look at the at the beginning of Flamengo's kind of main torcida for instance, you know, you can look at carnival and how that came in and that this I mean I'm sure you know Alex Bellos's book's description of how carnival enters into the stadium and becomes something which frightens the football authorities.
James Montague 09:31
They don't know how to deal with it, because you're taking the kind of sound and noise that is typical of Carnival and then you're mixing with the passion of football creating something kind of extremely, you know frightening to them. And in South America, there's a there's a heavy European Italian influence mixed in with all the other influences that you find in Argentina and in Uruguay at the time. So all of all of it means is that the fan culture is a mirror on whatever the local culture is. So you'll find that the torcida is exactly- not exactly representative,
James Montague 10:05
but it's certainly representative of certain working -class culture in Brazil and you find exactly the same in Buenos Aires, but from from a different perspective.
Francesco Belcastro 10:15
One thing that emerges clearly from your work is that football fans and ultras are often political actors. Can we say that all of them are, the distinction between sort of apolitical and political ones?
Francesco Belcastro 10:31
What's the kind of situation there, if we can generalize, of course?
James Montague 10:36
I mean, I guess, you know, in a way, everybody's political and everything is political. So, I mean, it's very difficult not every interaction you have in life is political in some way. So that's very difficult for me always to separate that.
James Montague 10:51
But if we do try and do that in ultra groups, I gravitate towards telling stories of groups that have a political agenda or have found themselves at the center of political events. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that all ultra groups are political.
James Montague 11:08
I mean, if you go to Sweden, for instance, there's a lot of groups that are apolitical. In fact, most of the scene is apolitical. It's kind of how the culture there has grown. I don't know whether that's to do with consensus politics in Nordic countries or whatever.
James Montague 11:22
But there is a, there is a, there's a. almost by design that you go to a curve in Sweden. You go to Hammarby, for instance, and there is no one political ideology. But you'll find it there. You'll find communists there.
James Montague 11:38
You'll find people very much on the far right. Those attached to the hooliigan movement as well. You find a much, much more there as well. But there is, you know, there is there is an apolitic- apoliticization of it.
James Montague 11:48
I mean, if you look at English fan culture, I would say that's that's largely apolitical as well. I mean, point to, you know, the movement and its association to fascism or they look at Liverpool or Celtic, for instance, and leftist politics or Irish nationalism.
James Montague 12:06
But, you know, for me, what is interesting is that whether they're political or not, it's that the organizational unit of football fans, whether that is within the casual culture or within ultras has the potential to be an extremely effective political tool.
James Montague 12:21
And when you've got the right conditions, you'll find that having an extremely well organized army of young fit men who are motivated is extremely useful when you have a revolutionary movement. If you have a far right street movement, if you want to fight a war, as we had in the Balkans, where you have units of fighters, militias coming directly from the curves of Red Star - Crvena Zvezda - Red Star Belgrade, Hadjuk Split, Dinamo Zagreb. where if you go to those stadiums today, there are literally statues outside those three stadiums in those three cities that venerate these militias that went and fought for their side of the world.
James Montague 13:09
I mean, Arkhan and the Delijas, the most famous example of that. One of the things that I've watched in real time happen was the role of ultras in a lot of the Arab Spring uprising and protests in North Africa.
James Montague 13:25
I spent a lot of time in Egypt, a lot of time with the Al-Ahly Ultra, the Akhlawy. And again, it wasn't necessarily that these guys started out with a political agenda, and it was mostly men. I mean, it wasn't exclusively men, but it was mostly men who are part of this.
James Montague 13:40
I mean, that's something, again, reflective of Egyptian culture. But in terms of large groups of people going to football, which is similar to lots of other places around the world, but it was something that having a large group of organized people that went under the radar of state control and of police control, you know, it was almost a gap in the matrix in Egypt.
James Montague 14:05
Every other area of civil society had been effectively neutralized. The one area they diddn't bother to deal with was because I think they think that football fans are idiots and it was more fool them.
James Montague 14:16
Was the football terrace. And you realize that when you have 5 ,000 people on a football terrace or in a football stadium that can share ideas, and they can collectively come up with, like, okay, today it's going to be about this, this issue, we're going to have a banner about this.
James Montague 14:41
That's incredibly powerful. And the issue of the day, of course, was the fact that before the Arab Spring, Egypt was an increasingly unfree, unfair place that was essentially a police state. So the issue of the day was dealing with the police and being against the police is an absolutely core ultra value everywhere in the world.
James Montague 15:04
That's what ultras share. So you have this in the mid 2000s, you have ultra culture coming from Italy and, you know, a lot of the capos of these groups bring that ultra culture and influence the curves of especially in the Cairo clubs and create this movement that effectively becomes politicized because of the environment that it finds itself in.
James Montague 15:27
So, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say ultras or football fans are inherently political, no more than anyone else. But given the right conditions, it is a really overlooked unit of political change and potentially revolutionary change in many societies.
Guy Burton 15:47
One of the things you mentioned is it's primarily a young man's activity being part of the ultras. But that does also make me wonder a little bit, are we seeing a shift at all? I mean, are there any ultra groups that highlight or emphasize or involve women?
Guy Burton 16:06
And I mean, I would also imagine, you know, I think minorities. But you know, is ultra culture becoming more diverse?
James Montague 16:12
It is when you see the new frontier of ultras. So it's still very much, if you go to the Balkans, it's very much a man's game. Eastern Europe, very much a man's game. North Africa, I would say, interestingly, when I went to Indonesia, you saw many, many Muslim women and young girls who were part of those groups as well, which I found very interesting.
James Montague 16:36
It was incredibly diverse in terms of men and women. What's interesting, I think, is when you get to places like Germany, for instance, where it has become, because German ultras are extremely political, not just like it's on a macro and micro level, right?
James Montague 16:55
It is on a micro level, like issues about the club, ticket prices, all these issues, like problems with the owner, like very localised football issues, then macro issues, which are like Israel Gaza, which, you know, interestingly, a lot of the German ultra groups have supported, shown support with Israel.
James Montague 17:17
Most of the ultra groups have politically, or have been involved in politically showing that, you know, through TIFOs have been the opposite. But Germany, that's one thing. But there you have groups like at Werder Bremen, you know, of St.
James Montague 17:33
Pauli is very well known, of course, at Hamburg, you know, you know, campaigning against sexism, campaigning against a treatment, a bad treatment of women in football stadiums, who have far more women involved than they did before.
James Montague 17:45
The biggest example I saw actually was, and this gets laughed at a lot, as it's almost an oxymoron, is ultra culture in the US, which is, you know, it's just taken off. And it's very interesting because it's seen as a bit of a joke, you know, by a lot of, you know, hardcore ultras, like these American ultras, and you see these videos go viral of like American capos doing these quite ridiculous, you know, charts.
James Montague 18:11
But then if you go to, you know, I went to LAFC, which is obviously a new club, I mean, they're all fairly new clubs, and you go there and you meet kind of the, kind of the ultra collective they have there.
James Montague 18:22
And in the capo cages, you're meeting women, women are the capos, you know, and they're Latina women, and they're, because LA is such a, you know, it's just a melting pot city, you're going to have the city of the future in any respects, that you have, you know, it's Iranians, or first generation Iranians, or first generation Argentines, first generation Brazilians, people from Central America, you know, it's just the real mix, and they're all bringing that football culture there.
James Montague 18:51
And you realize that LA has actually always been a football city, it's just never really had a place really to hang its hat and say... they've tried a few times with a few clubs, LAFC seem to be succeeding more than most. But in American ultra -culture, you see this, and it definitely has a much more left -wing progressive route, I think, there.
James Montague 19:11
That's the political identity that that kind of constituency has picked up, and you do see much more female involvement. And I think it will change elsewhere, but it will take as, it will change as quickly as the society changes.
James Montague 19:27
Because remember, ultras, in many respects, are reflective of a very male working -class culture. And culture changes, then the terrace changes, and the makeup of the terrace changes, whether that's through how many women go with ethnic minorities going, and who's accepted into that space or not, changes with how that is changing in that society.
Guy Burton 19:52
Can I just put that.. So that if I may just so two things first of all, just for the listeners who may not necessarily know what a capo is, if you could define that but the other thing as well, I think that you know you thought a lot of what's coming through as well as about sort of the globalization of of ultra culture and also the experiences that you're seeing elsewhere, which brings me to a question because a lot of these newer markets that you want to call them that like Indonesia or Asia or America are looking at ultra culture from from Italy, from the old world, as it where.
Guy Burton 20:23
So the question then becomes how much of this culture is organic or is it sort of the authenticity associated with it? I mean, where do you see sort of the shift to the break between sort of what is being brought in from outside and what's coming from within?
James Montague 20:40
Yeah, it's a good question because I mean, it is, I mean, I guess it's a form of cultural imperialism in a way. It's Italian cultural supremacy throughout the world because when I go to Indonesia, you know, I'll go to I went to see PSS
James Montague 20:51
Sleman in the south of Java Island, right? And, you know, the ultras are in, I think they're in the Curva Sud, you know, like, like the, like the, the language of ultras is international. Like there's Italian words for instance, cappo, which means the leader of the chance, right?
James Montague 21:10
So if you look at the stand, the curva, which, you know, Italian word for the, for the, the cheap curve behind the goal, people would stand the cheapest place where the ultras would stand. If you look there, it'll be the person with the megaphone who's not looking at the game, but they're looking at the fans and they won't watch a minute of football, but they're like a hype man, basically, or in LAFC, a hype woman, you know, so, so you there, there is a certain amount of kind of homogene- homogeneity, I suppose you would say, in terms of like, you know, it is recognizable and interesting that you would see that in Indonesia.
James Montague 21:49
Like, you know, the fact that the Green Street Hooligans is like probably one of the most famous films in Indonesian fan culture. And a lot of people could have followed that and wear that, that, that culture and fashion.
James Montague 22:01
Where the individualism... Where the local, because what it is, okay, this might be influential in the same way like punk music would have found the global audience or heavy metal, right? But then you have, you know, Sepultura, right, which brings like a, like a Brazilian sound, the heavy metal, it brings its own, like very unique sound to it.
James Montague 22:23
I think it's the Belo Horizonte metal scene that kind of like where they came from. It's the same with ultra culture. Okay, you have this, you know, almost uniform language and as an aesthetic is very similar.
James Montague 22:36
But then it the the culture that it comes from, you see little routes of it. For instance, what the capo that I met. What club was it is in Indonesia? You know, he was he was an Imam. You know, there was, you know, there's a, you know, you find covered women who are there, supporting the team in the same way that anybody else would be, you'd have like, you know, what they drink with, you know, some people do drink beforehand, you know, you have this drink called intisari, which you know, English people or Italian people drink beers on the way to the ground.
James Montague 23:08
Intisari is like this, like, I don't know if you've ever heard of Buckfast? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything let's go for a
Francesco Belcastro 23:15
So I'm familiar with it.
James Montague 23:16
They serve it in a plastic bag, you've got to bite the corner off it and drink it. And it's like, I mean, it's the worst hangover I've ever had. You know, when we took the coach, you know, on the way, everybody's been partying for 24 hours, we stop outside the mosque, have the bus goes and prays, comes back on and we go to the game.
James Montague 23:34
So there is, there was already a fan culture that was really in Indonesia, was already there. They were all maniacs. It was kind of like, it was a very interesting culture where they weren't really capos, they were kind of like elder men who were in charge of the fans.
James Montague 23:55
And so there was this, so it was a very much kind of benevolent dictator that was in charge, but there was an older character. So when I went to see procedure play, there was this character who people made documentaries about him, but he was organised in a very, very Indonesian fashion.
James Montague 24:14
And then what happens, you know, with the fashion and all this kind of stuff, it kind of, it kind of, it takes a lot of these influences, but it's grafted onto a preexisting culture that's there. So it doesn't smother it.
James Montague 24:25
That's the thing. It doesn't come and replace it. It just joins with it. It turns into something else and it develops over time. And that's happened wherever you find ultra culture, you know, it's not a facsimile, it's something that joins and evolves and becomes something different.
Francesco Belcastro 24:41
Can I ask you something on the transnational networks? Because we often see sort of clubs with similar ideology aligned or sort of acknowledging each other. And one thing that was interesting, I'm sure you followed and listened as well, the sort of Celtic, Green Brigade, St.
Francesco Belcastro 24:57
Pauli. One thing that was very interesting there is that you also have local supporters of Norwegian fan club of St. Pauli discussing with Celtic club Cyprus, the politics... So these kind of transnational networks, both in terms of among clubs, but also of supporter groups supporting the same clubs, how relevant are they from a political point of view?
Francesco Belcastro 25:24
Do they matter?
James Montague 25:27
Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, any transnational political network that shares and organizes over thousands of people across large distances, I think is something that should be taken seriously. And actually, I think one of the main issues, I think, is that football fans will often be seen as thugs.
James Montague 25:46
They've been seen as unthinking, unserious, unintelligent, right? But what do we see when we see someone at the Green Beret- Brigade? Whether you agree with it or not, right? But the message that the Green Beret- Brigade send out or the Crvena Zvezda, for instance, when their ultras put a, you know, at the start of the Ukraine war, they had a big TIFO which had all of the American interventions since 1945.
James Montague 26:12
Name of it, on each side. It upset a lot of people because of course they forget about the Russian intervention or overlook Serbia's role in what was going on in Kosovo, for instance. But the point is that these are things that people have thought about.
James Montague 26:26
These are, whether you disagree with it or not, an intelligent, coherent point. And these networks are incredibly important in maintaining and spreading that message. So if you look at Crvena Zvezda, Red Star Belgrade, for instance, you know, they share political, cultural, religious friendships and ties with, for instance, Olympiakos in Greece, for obvious reasons, with clubs in Russia, for obvious reasons.
James Montague 26:57
You have political groups, so you have, you know, St. Pauli, often aligning with left -wing groups. But then you also, you have something much more, Italy, for instance, which is where this friendship kind of concept kind of comes from.
James Montague 27:12
I mean, we were doing some filming last year and we were with the Lazio Ultras, which have changed somewhat since the Irriducibili have, you know, basically disbanded after the death of Diabolik, who I interviewed, an out and out fascist, no doubt about it, but one of the most influential figures in Italian ultra scene.
James Montague 27:32
He was assassinated a few months after we did the interview. I was there for the Inter Milan-Lazio game. And those two groups, actually the Irriducibli, and, well, the group that's now disbanded from Inter, they've turned into something else, they, you know, they shared same fascist ideology.
James Montague 27:52
And so they had a 30 -year friendship and it's ongoing based on their shared political ideology. And that's something that has happened with curves all across Italy. And one of the things that's happened really since the 90s onwards is the capture of a lot of curves and a lot of groups and a lot of people within the movement by mafia and organized crime, partly because there is a, you know, being part of an ultra group is about being outside of control, being outside of society in many respects, right?
James Montague 28:24
That you are your own person and it's about control over yourself and your group. And it's about being outside of control of society and of police and of like mainstream institutions. So you can see if you live that life, that it isn't that much of a big gap or a good job to say, you know, I will live the outlaw life, then I will lead the outlaw life.
James Montague 28:47
And so it's attractive for a lot of people to be part of that, but also in the same way that we talked about the revolutionary potential of altruism, or the potential of altruism. To a mafia group, these groups are also potentially very good at running businesses for them.
James Montague 29:08
They're very good at enforcement. They're very good, loyal, organized, structured, hierarchical operators that can fit seamlessly to their operations. You can see why they would be attracted to, you know, hiring or recruiting people from that movement.
James Montague 29:25
So, yeah, but the main thing is that this transnationalism, I suppose, of ultra groups is something that has always existed. And then we talked about globalization earlier, but before it was pen pals, then it was, you know, phone calls, then emails and now video calls.
James Montague 29:45
So these things happen quicker and easier, but, you know, sometimes these groups are friends for decades, and it can quickly end as well. I mean, there's a group, I mean, with the Akhlawy, which who are still kind of operating, although very difficult to operate in Egypt, but they had a friendship with Freiburg in Germany, based, you know, along partly on Amir Farmi, who was the kind of founder of the Akhlawy, and was a friend of many people within Freiburg.
James Montague 30:20
And so they had a really deep, strong friendship. There's a bench outside the new Freiburg, and dedicated in his honor, because he died, unfortunately, of cancer a few years ago. And, but their friendship looks like it's over because Freiburg showed solidarity for the Israeli hostage victims, whereas for the Akhlawi, it's the solidarity for the Palestinian victims of the Israeli bombardment that should take precedence.
James Montague 30:46
And the Palestinian issue is such a fundamental political issue for that group that it meant that the friendship couldn't stand. So we'll see if that is a long -lasting thing, but it shows how real -world political events change things and shows that, you know, equally you have this cross -national relationship that exists, where one could not have existed 30 years ago, with a largely working -class Egyptian movement, you know, taking place in North Africa, and, you know, one of the kind of, which is wealthiest, whitest corners of Southwest Germany.
Guy Burton 31:25
The thing that comes out, especially on what you've just been talking about there, James, is the antisocial dimension side of ultra culture. Beyond that are there any other reasons why ultras would be considered a problem or a security threat?
James Montague 31:42
I mean, there is an argument against them, but it's also an argument usually made by people who want a different type of experience, a different type of game. Look, there's a lot of ultras that are bastards.
James Montague 31:54
That's the whole point, right. That they are the whole point about the ultra movement. I think is is it's a youth movement. Let's... I mean... Lot of the Italian ultra groups now, they're still still the same guys in charge, hey've been there for 20, 30 years, but at its root
James Montague 32:11
it's a... it's a... it's a youth movement about pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable for them and for society, right? And so yeah, it's about putting people's noses out place I put it out of joy. That's what I was attracted to it I was attracted to this idea that you know, I mean maybe eventually people could have grown up and they go get a job. But a lot of people don't and they want to live this life and they want to be part of this life because it's something that challenges authority and they want to challenge authority. And I don't think necessarily that is a bad thing But it does mean that there is you know, there's a lot of stuff that comes with that that isn't necessarily gonna gonna please everybody. And the what I've always looked at it as is, what it brings to the game and not and this isn't just ultra culture.
James Montague 33:00
I mean, there's a you know This is also fan culture. That's not ultra culture. I mean one place where we don't really have ultra culture is England right for instance and but we do have a very defined or did have a very defined kind of fan culture that equally... You know stood in opposition to authority or wanted to be something that was, you know, stood in opposition, you know, they're on its own terms and the way I look at it is that what what they bring... What the fans and and these cultures that they've these incredibly diverse, florid powerful a hugely popular cultures which have spread worldwide What that brings to the game is far greater than the negatives that come out of it, which of course we there's there are things that people talk about with violence and racism and all these other issues and... I actually I've got... I got some messages from some Dutch journalists, which really pissed me off the other week.
James Montague 33:55
It was like, you know, they've got a problem at the moment... all the problems you'd say is a kind of ultra kind of what's the word like panic... because an Ajax game got called off because flares are being thrown on the pitch and as people have been rioting.
James Montague 34:12
There's been riots... Kind of anti -covid marches and all this kind of thing is like, what do we do to stop these ultras? Like should we ban them like like the British do or should we ban them the way the Italians do?
James Montague 34:23
Right and it was and it was like of course in there the framing of the question was, ultimately like these are bad people. We need to control them.And I'm like no, hang on. The problem here is not Ultras this... It's not an inherent problem with ultra culture because you can have something very beautiful and inclusive in ultra culture.
James Montague 34:43
You can point to lots of examples around the world. You can have a progressive, revolutionary movements come out of ultra culture. The problem isn't ultras. The problem is you. The problem is the Netherlands.
James Montague 34:52
There's something dark and very Troubling going on in Dutch society at the room the working -class level at the at the level of Normal people who feel disenfranchised and disillusioned, so much so that they've just voted for someone like Gert Wilders to be Prime Minister- The very difficult Dutch system because they have to form a coalition government But the point is that is the problem, right? Look at the farmers protest against kind of... you know, which has been overtaken by conspiracy theorists, you know and how that is... You know, the fact that women politicians can't be Leaving politics in the Netherlands and their droves because the amount of online abuse they get. That's not to do with ultras. That's to do something troubling that's happening in and in Dutch society and this is just one valve, right.
James Montague 35:45
This is just one mirror by which you can place it and so... In the end it was... They did this, this interview, I think it was a Volkskrant, which is I guess the equivalent of The Times.... And I've never had a response to it like that before. It was, it was incredible It was like I was getting messages a lot of ultras that I speak to, they're kind of like yeah, you're alright but you're a journalist which means ultimately you're an asshole. But you're an alright kind of asshole... Kind of accept me at arms length. But this was like, yeah, finally someone said it like it is. We're not... It's not us.
James Montague 36:23
that's the problem necessarily. It's not the culture that is the problem, you know. Look at the deeper meanings for it and I think there is I think there is a lot to be said for that.
Francesco Belcastro 36:33
Can I say this, this issue of, of football fans liking or this example of football fans liking or not liking journalists brings us back to your own club and the club you support and this contribution to fun culture because you didn't tell us who you support and why, why they're important.
James Montague 36:50
Yeah, well, I, yeah, so I support West Ham United. Traveling around the world... And I've probably reported from maybe a hundred countries, maybe a bit more than a hundred countries. Like saying that you're a West Ham fan is like, it's really weird.
James Montague 37:04
Like it's quite a strange reaction from people because people really respond to it, especially when you're outside of England. I mean, I'd get a very different response if I went to South London near, like, and I went to the New Den, I said I was a West Ham fan.
James Montague 37:19
But like, if I mean, I was in Israel... Actually the first time I'd ever come across ultra was in Israel. And this was a long time ago, maybe 2004. And I'd, I mean, in the flesh up close, and it was with La Familia, which is like the kind of ultra nationalist far right group of Beitar Jerusalem, which is all itself has, has a fan base and has a kind of like, you know, I mean, strong connections to Likud and the revisionist movement and Zionist revisionist movement.
James Montague 37:47
So it's a very, you know, it's a, you know, these guys should not like someone like me. And they didn't until I said I was a West Ham fan and they started singing, I'm West Ham, and they didn't speak in English, but they started singing, "I'm West Ham till I die" in a cockney accent because they've watched Green Street Hooligans.
James Montague 38:04
And it turns out that like, traveling around the world, Green Street Hooligans is like, you know, like it's one of the most influential things I've ever seen because everywhere I'd go, I would meet people who watched it, almost see it as a documentary.
Guy Burton 38:19
And yeah, what is fascinating, because what you're saying is, I mean, we've been talking about, you know, ultra culture were around the world. And there isn't one in the UK, or there isn't one in England.
Guy Burton 38:28
And yet, all of these groups that you come across, you know, this film about a particular aspect of English fan culture seems to be that kind of foundation stone.
James Montague 38:39
Yeah, there is and in a lot of places it's mixed as well like casual culture and which is something very very different like the British who look at us and casual culture from the 80s and 90s and 70s, 80s and 90s is in a lot of places it's mixed. So in terms of the aesthetic... In terms of, kind of, you know, the violence, there is still a hooliganism movement outside of the UK, but a lot of it is disconnected from... They're like... The way to think about it is like the IRA and Sinn Fein, right?
James Montague 39:12
Like the Sinn Fein and the Ultras, and they've got like an armed wing, right? Which is like how most like hooligan groups exist now. They're like, they're attached, but they're not the same. So you will see there's a kind of extremely well -organized fighting scene that's almost, it's called different names... Hukola football in Russian... ustawka in Polish, boss fights in the Dutch -speaking world, where you have these organized groups that fight eight on eight, 10 on 10, you know, and it is like no weapons, very well -organized, highly illegal, extremely brutal, but very much a self -contained sport that's away from the violence of the football stadiums, which has mostly gone down in the past 20 years.
James Montague 39:57
I mean, I know we've seen a resurgence in certain places, and in France is one place where we've seen it coming back in the stadiums, but again, these are problems that are much deeper than football fan culture.
James Montague 40:10
But yeah, it is interesting that there isn't, it was, you know, my publisher asked me about this, why is there not a chapter in England? And I tried to explain that, you know, this was something that whilst the rest of Europe were adopting this, because I mean, Germany had a very English -style hooliganism scene, really, right up until 2000s.
James Montague 40:32
And then the popularity of Italian football meant that ultras started to come in. 2000, 2001, 2002 was a really crucial year, because that happens in Turkey, for instance, so the ultra culture comes in and kind of joins with this pre -existing fan culture, where their capos were amigos, right?
James Montague 40:54
They were called amigos, and they had like, you know, something very similar to an ultra culture, but it was, you know, obviously extremely Turkish. And then suddenly, you know, the colour, and it happens because Galatasaray go and play European football, you know, for the first time, win the UEFA Cup, but they're travelling to all these places, they bring back that influence to Istanbul.
James Montague 41:15
And so, yeah, you see this everywhere, but just when this is happening, you know, in the rest of the world, you know, we have this kind of ruinous hooligan culture, which almost destroys football. We have the Hillsborough disaster, which, you know, which is down to the police and which is down to bad management and down to terrible stadiums, and awful government cover -up as well off the back of it.
James Montague 41:42
But that sparks a change that leads to the Taylor Report and the birth of the Premier League and a new era of all -seater stadium, where the way that the game is policed and the value of the game that is being created doesn't leave any space for any kind of group to exist.
James Montague 42:02
Because one of the things that is universal with ultra groups, although the authorities try to crack down on them, they have worked their way and created a space for themselves within the game in each country that is almost impossible for them to be moved out, that people have tried, they've brought the Passolig card system in Turkey, you have the Devieto banning orders in Italy.
James Montague 42:25
You know, they've tried to legislate ultras out but they can't do it because there's a space within the stadiums and within football culture for them. There isn't that, that doesn't exist in English football.
James Montague 42:37
The only place where it does is there's a little bit within Scottish football because you have the Green Brigade, but even then you can see how it's very easy for the authorities to essentially kick them out of the stadiums.
James Montague 42:48
There's a little bit at Crystal Palace, but the fact is that the owners hold all the cards, and so they have not allowed an ultra -culture, which would ultimately eventually lead to their being... It will hold their feet to the fire, owners don't want that in the stadiums.
James Montague 43:09
So that is very much being... So where you find ultra -culture flourishing in England is in the lower leagues, where there is space. And it's the same in Italy, where in the lower leagues you find ultra -culture, where people have...
James Montague 43:22
They might have a banning order to not go to Juventus, but they can go down the road to another club and go there instead. So it's very interesting that it isn't a mainstream concept in terms of top league football in England, and although much of the aesthetic is coming in, I'br noticed.
James Montague 43:42
But clubs are making flags and tifos, like you see Man City doing it, and it's so plastic. I mean, people talk about American cultures, but the most plastic thing you can see is Man City having a kind of...
James Montague 43:56
The management printing out bags and banners to put up, I mean, it's just so inauthentic.
Francesco Belcastro 44:04
That's absolutely fascinating, James.
Francesco Belcastro 44:06
Thank you very much.
Guy Burton 44:08
And we should also mention as well, what James was just saying about his publisher and the book chapter not including E|ngland, I mean, I think we're talking specifically about his book which came out a few years ago called 1312: Among the Ultras, A journey with the World's Most Extreme Fans which was published by Penguin.
Guy Burton 44:25
And of course, he's also published a number of other works as well, James, haven't you, including When Friday Comes: Football, War and Revolution in the Middle East, which you know, covers your time in Egypt and a lot of others....
Francesco Belcastro 44:37
So for listeners who want to find out more, these are the books that James has published and we really, really encourage people to pick them up. I think, is it the one in the Middle East one that just had a...
Francesco Belcastro 44:48
Yeah, When Friday Comes was... I mean When Friday Comes is kind of like my... I wrote it years ago when I just I was probably too young to write it really. But um so much has happened that I was allowed to and I was really lucky that that I was allowed to kind of update it and add a lot... Because I started my reporting career in the Middle East I was very lucky to kind of land there in 2004, 2005 just when the Gulf decided that we're going to spend a load of our money on sport and football yeah and and this obviously has an extremely political reasoning um whether it's you know whether you can look at kind of state building identity building but obviously soft and hard power influence which we've which has led from I mean I remember going and seeing Marcel Desailly play for Al-Gharafa in 2004 because they'd spent loads of money trying to get foreigners into the league to try and improve the national team to then last year going and standing and watching Qatar in the first game the World Cup they hosted. That journey, you know, says a lot about the journey about not just about football but of money and shifting power in the multi -polar world I think... And so yeah I was really lucky to be able to kind of update the book and I was even luckier just to be there at the birth- well not birth but like at one beginning of it, and then um yeah but I mean now that we have Saudi Arabia um is completely changing the fabric of football and sport and many other areas as well that I feel in a way that we're only at the beginning of this process, not the end of it, you know.
Guy Burton 46:26
And maybe we can have you come back and talk about that at some point later on. But James, the subject that's definitely given us about ultra culture has been so rich and fascinating. And hopefully, you know, a real education to our listeners as well.
Guy Burton 46:38
Now, Francesco, is there anything else we should say?
Francesco Belcastro 46:41
Well, we should remind listeners to like, share the episodes, send them to their friends and rate us on all of the main platforms aren't we, Guy?
Guy Burton 46:51
Yeah, yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 46:52
And also we want some feedback. We want to, yeah, we want people to get in touch to suggest what else we should pick.
Francesco Belcastro 46:58
And you have to promise that next week you're going to come out of the cave where you are this week and we can hear you properly.
Guy Burton 47:04
Yeah, my apologies on that one. But thanks so much, thanks so much, James, for taking the time to talk to us.
Francesco Belcastro 47:10
James, thank you very much. It's been great.
James Montague 47:12
You do sound like a 1980s- like it's like listening to like a radio commentator on Radio 5 Live in the 1990s. So there's a retro, there's a retro broadcasting element to it!
Guy Burton 47:24
So that is... You've seen through me! That is what I'm aiming for!
Francesco Belcastro 47:28
It's working. Thank you very much, James. Can I just say we got other great episodes landing Monday morning as usual and it's going to be Valentina Fedele on the politics of football and religion and Islam specifically.
Francesco Belcastro 47:41
So it's going to be one not to miss. Just thank you very much. Thanks Guy. Thanks James and thanks for our listeners. Bye bye.
Guy Burton 47:47
Yup. Bye.
Guy Burton 47:48
Bye.