God's own game? Football and Islam ft. Valentina Fedele

Do religions and particularly Islam have a view on football? In this episode co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to Valentina Fedele, Associate Professor of Sociology of Cultural and Communicational Processes at Link Campus University in Rome. Valentina explains how most religions have beliefs and norms that apply to sport generally and football in particular, noting that Islam is not especially unique in this regard.  Looking at several Muslim majority countries  like Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, Valentina discusses how the issue of the relation between football and Islam is multi-layered, with states, religious authorities and personal beliefs all playing a role. Valentina also points to new work she's doing on unaccompanied minors in Italy, some of them from Muslim countries, and how they relate to football.

Transcript

God's own game? Football and Islam ft. Valentina Fedele

Francesco Belcastro 00:13

Hello and welcome to a new episode of FootPol, the podcast where football meets politics. I'm Dr. Francesco Belcastro, one of... one of your co -hosts. And here with me is my other co -host, Dr Guy Burton. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:22

Hello Guy! 

Guy Burton 00:24

Hi, Francesco. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:26

I'm sure the listeners will want to know how your microphone related tragedy is going. Have you managed to sort your issues with the microphone? 

Guy Burton 00:33

I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I think it sounds better than it did previously, but I will let the listeners be the judge of that. Anyway, listen, tell us what are we going to be talking about this week? 

Guy Burton 00:45

What are we up to? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:47

So we got a really, really rich and interesting topic today. We're going to be talking about the relation between football and religion and particularly football and Islam. I think we've not spoken much about religion on the podcast so far, have we? 

Guy Burton 01:00

We've done a few things, kind of looking at Middle East football and maybe religion slipped in a bit there, but we've never focused on it, have we? So this is what we're going to be doing. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:09

So to do that today, we've got an excellent guest, Valentina Fedele. And now Valentina is an associate professor of sociology at the Link Campus University in Rome in Italy. She's published in research widely about Islam, masculinity and migration. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:23

We particularly attention to Maghreb region and Europe as well. Important for us in addition to these teams, sports has also been a dimension in her work. She looked at football. So Valentina, thank you very much for joining us. Hello.

Valentina Fedele 01:38

Thank you for the invitation. 

Valentina Fedele 01:40

I'm very happy to be here. As I'm Italian I have an accent. So I'm just telling the listeners! 

Francesco Belcastro 01:46

Two of us with Italian accents! 

Guy Burton 01:50

Thank you for coming. Before we start, because you mentioned your Italian, do you happen to have a club at all that you follow, Valentina? 

Valentina Fedele 01:57

I follow Napoli. 

Guy Burton 01:59

Okay, cool. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:59

We're not gonna ask you how the season is going! 

Francesco Belcastro 02:03

Valentina, you have published widely on the topic of sport and football in particular and Islam. Now, before we get into the topic, for the benefit of listeners who, like myself, are not experts in this particular field, what is the relationship between sport and religion? 

Francesco Belcastro 02:20

Do religions tend to have views about sports and physical activity in general? 

Valentina Fedele 02:26

Actually, in general, religion has had different approaches during time to sporting physical activity. There are religious prescriptions in all the major religion about sport and physical activity that have been interpreted in different way. 

Valentina Fedele 02:44

Speaking of Islam, what I think is a good starting point to understand the relationship between Islam and sport and physical activity is the theological conception of body. As the body is part of the God's's creation, there is this duality in Islam that is very strong in the theology of Islam. 

Valentina Fedele 03:05

So, human beings are created in soul and body and they are both important. But this part of the God creation is actually the aesthetic manifestation of the soul. And so, should be protected, should be kept healthy. 

Valentina Fedele 03:26

And this is important also, it's a religious duty, actually. And this is important also because for performing, in order to perform the other religious duty, you need an healthy body. If you think, for example, just give an example to the Arkan of Islam, the five pillars of the religion: to properly perform the rakat of the salat, the movement of the prayer, you need an healthy body. 

Valentina Fedele 03:56

As well as all the rites you should perform in the haj, in the pilgrimmage to Mecca, you need an healthy body. So, this is a good starting point. We have a lot of reference to physical activity, actually not to sport in the Quran, of course. 

Valentina Fedele 04:16

There are surahs speaking about it. One that is usually cited to support the compatibility between physical activity and Islam is the surah 38, that actually refers to beating the foot, as if he [unintelligble], for example. 

Valentina Fedele 04:36

And the path actually, if it's compatible, it should be performed, physical activity has to be performed in a religious way. So, there are limits to physical activity and sport. And we have here another surah that is the 57, that is always cited by religious group that claim that there is incompatibility between sport and Islam. 

Valentina Fedele 05:06

It's underlying that sport in analogy with play and fun is an activity of the earth. So, it's something human. So, it should be practised with moderation. And it's subordinated to the duties you have to our God, actually. 

Valentina Fedele 05:26

So, sport should not distract from the duties, from religious duties, must be practised respecting the roots of modesty. And this is something really, if you want more, if you think about hijab and the use of hijab and the issues of hijab, especially in international competition, like the Olympics, for example. 

Valentina Fedele 05:53

Separation in mixed environment should be respected, for example. And should be practises not involving gambling. This  is another just a prescription. It has not, it has to be not dangerous for oneself from the other, and must not involve the lack of respect to the opponent. 

Francesco Belcastro 06:20

Okay, 

Valentina Fedele 06:22

This is really interesting, because, for example, this prescription related to danger, not to be dangerous. Because it calls into question the religious legality of boxing. 

Valentina Fedele 06:39

If you think about any boxers, Muslim boxers, how is it important the relationship with Islam in boxing, starting from Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson to, I don't know, Gervonta Davis, the last one that has converted to Islam last month. 

Valentina Fedele 06:58

But actually, more boxers involves to hit the opponent in his face. So this is anti Islamic. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:08

Okay. 

Valentina Fedele 07:09

So this is really interesting, I think. We have more specific reference to sport in the life, in the account of the life of the prophet, the hadith, where is written that Muhammad played sport. 

Valentina Fedele 07:25

Some sport are directly cited. And this is also really interesting for more than sport, because if you look at the discipline, there are most played by athletes coming from Muslim majority country in the Olympics, for example, they are usually discipline that are linked, not the same anyway, but a link to the sport cited in this one. 

Valentina Fedele 07:52

For example, fencing. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:56

Okay. 

Valentina Fedele 07:58

Or everything about wrestling, Taekwondo and judo and... except boxing! Of course. While we still found Muslim atheletes in boxing. So, of course, this prescription I was making a reference to, I've been interpreting it in a different way, especially after the penetration in the 20th century, at the beginning of the 20th century, with more or less Muslim majority countries, but diverse countries. 

Valentina Fedele 08:27

So the history I'm recalling now, I'm talking in general, of course. So actually, modern sports, were introduced in the Muslim majority country at the beginning of the 20th century, for the most part by colonial powers. 

Valentina Fedele 08:48

And so this penetration calls religious authorities, Islamic authorities, to have to take a clear position with respect to the activity and to the single sport practices. And this position are very, very diverse in times, both the chronically and synchronically. 

Valentina Fedele 09:09

Actually, because it depends on the culture and the political and the social situation. Of course, it depends on the start, it depends on historical issues. So they are very, very diverse. So sometimes... But I have to say that the main approach nowadays is actually not to ban sport as something imported by the West. 

Valentina Fedele 09:36

So something that can be dangerous for the Islamic tradition. But to arrange situation. So try to find a way to play sport in an Islamic way. 

Francesco Belcastro 09:51

Valentina, can I ask you one thing? Before we go back on Islam, would you say that this, based on this very good, very interesting picture that you gave us, is Islam unique among major religions in tackling this issue in this way or are there parallels with other religions, you would say? 

Valentina Fedele 10:12

It's not unique in time. The history tell us that actually other religions have faced the problem in asserting themselves in the sport arena. If you look at the history of the Olympics, the first athlete having religious issues was Eric Liddell in 1924, actually in the Olympics of Paris in 1924, because he was Protestant from the Anglican... if I don't get wrong, and he couldn't run on Sunday. 

Valentina Fedele 10:54

But in that case, the most part of this situation that for Christianity have much to do with the day of performing sport were solved with the withdrawal of the athlete, of the single athlete. So the athlete didn't run and lost the medal, that's all. 

Valentina Fedele 11:17

When it comes to Islam, you have different levels. You have an institutional level of the government actually. So the way the government want to assert themselves as an Islamic country, the version of Islam they want to promote, for example. And you have a subjective level. 

Valentina Fedele 11:42

So a single athlete that decides to accept the same as a Muslim in a public arena actually. And I have to say that in the last 30 years, especially speaking of Olympics actually... allegedly considered something like a neutral space from the religion and political point of view. 

Valentina Fedele 12:06

This is not true. I was giving you an example of the 1924. So it's something that's really old. But to say that in the last 30 years, most part of these issues are always related to Islam. This is because of the construction of Islam as an exception. 

Valentina Fedele 12:28

So when it comes to Islam, everything is exceptional. If you want it's also a form of "otherization" in a way. So considering something like... as considering Olympics as a Western place, not a Muslim place, where Muslims are coming. 

Francesco Belcastro 12:51

Okay, yeah. 

Valentina Fedele 12:52

So someone coming from outside. And this is part of the construction of the exception of Islam. And there is also another thing that the issues- religious issues, both at the institutional and personal level, when it comes to Islam, they don't have to do with the day. 

Valentina Fedele 13:12

It's not something like athletes can have issues in playing on Friday. But they concern different topics from the Ramadan. So when the World Cup is done during Ramadan, during Ramadan, or the Olympics also, and with wearing. 

Valentina Fedele 13:35

So they pose issues to the federations that are quite different and diverse. 

Guy Burton 13:43

Could I jump in there? Because talking about Islam and the five duties that come with it, and you alluded to Ramadan, the duty to fast during the holy month. That creates a real tension, doesn't it, when you have sort of competitive, and in some cases, elite sports like football and the World Cup taking place? 

Valentina Fedele 14:03

Yeah, no, I have to say another time that there is an institutional governmental level and there is a personal level. So the most part of the time, usually... I give you an example from- always from the Olympics, the Olympics of Tokyo, in 2020, when it was during the month of Ramadan. 

Valentina Fedele 14:26

So many countries, many Muslim majority countries ask to the Federation to the Olympic Committee to postpone the Olympics. The Olympic Committee refused because they say sport is a neutral place, space. 

Valentina Fedele 14:43

And so they basically the most part of the Mufti involved in discussing this situation, they basically say that athletes were to be considered as people on jihad, or as people on travel that are usually exempted from Ramadan. 

Valentina Fedele 15:08

This is the institutional level, but I have to tell you at the same time that the national team of Morocco, football team of Morocco, nine of the football players decided to do Ramadan anyway. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:21

Mm -hmm. 

Valentina Fedele 15:22

But that is why I was saying that you have two levels about it. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:26

So the question is specifically on football. I mean, you alluded to it yourself, to the popularity of the game. Now, there are some countries, several of them, that as well as having a majority of population who are Muslims are absolutely football crazy. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:41

From Egypt to Iran, there's several countries where football is incredibly popular. How have the governments... in some cases and I have different countries where different kinds of Islam is practiced dealt with this?

Valentina Fedele 16:03

Yeah, we have a different experience actually, as I told you, as other sports, as we were telling before, football was introduced by colonial powers actually. And it's so important because it has been influenced and has influenced the cultural and social change. 

Valentina Fedele 16:23

So it's actually has been a tool for social and political integration sometimes. It has created in times a space in which ethnic, religious, national and regional identities as well as gender and class differences have confronted among each other. 

Valentina Fedele 16:42

So it's been really important. It's been both a space for a national state, post -colonial state, to legitimate themselves and to create the national community. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:55

Mm -hmm. 

Valentina Fedele 16:55

Recalling building, you know, one of the tools of the nationalist, and at the same time it has been a place for protest. So it's really important for governments... governments usually to control actually football. 

Valentina Fedele 17:13

And it has been used by experience, really different experience like Ataturk, as part of his nationalist agenda. It has been used, for example, in in Saudi Arabia, where the kingdom actually control both the national team and the single teams. 

Valentina Fedele 17:35

In Yemen, it has been used as a bridge in the 1980s between the two parts of the country. And nowadays, in Iraq, it's used that there are a lot of experience in order to create a bridge between ethnic differences. 

Valentina Fedele 17:52

And this is the reason why, because also when we speak about religious authority, we have to divide from religious governmental authority and religious authority linked to Islamic movement. Lately, especially in the last 50 years, we have a lot of intervention by religious authority about football and its compatibility with Islam that usually are in the same direction I was telling before. 

Valentina Fedele 18:23

So try to make football compatible, okay, instead of banning it. So we have, for example, the leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, 

Francesco Belcastro 18:35

Mm -hmm. 

Valentina Fedele 18:37

and both also the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah. They both share this idea of the compatibility between Islam and football, because they consider the former a tool to develop spirituality and morality, I have to believe. 

Valentina Fedele 18:54

And this is something that is recollected about boxing. So we were talking about before about boxing, because they say that Islam is the best religion for boxers, because being Muslim means to have a lifestyle, a proper lifestyle that is compatible. 

Valentina Fedele 19:15

So, and boxers means a proper lifestyle. But they go on the same place, on the same step. They go step by step. In Saudi Arabia, for example, there was some religious authority that say that football was compatible with Islam, was a good thing, but should be played in a different way in order to be different from the Western idea of football. 

Valentina Fedele 19:47

For example, they say this should be played modestly. So they have to be worth something different. What we are used to, or maybe they propose also to eliminate some words, as the corner, penalty to change, because they were too Western- penalty recalls the idea of offending the opponent, if you want to, that's why it was not Islamic. 

Valentina Fedele 20:26

Or for example, they propose also to change the number of players, not to play on Friday. It was another proposal. But actually, I have to say that lately, of course, this thing made... I don't know... an allegedly Saudi version of football incompatible with football at an international level, if you want. 

Valentina Fedele 20:52

But it is so... the tendency has changed. And for example, during the 2010 World Football Cup, the Saudi religious authorities fealing to prevent the viewing of the matches, decided to bring Mosque some ways into the coffee house in order for the believers to pray during the half match [half time], at least during the half match. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:21

So they had to accept the power of football, Valentina! That's what you're saying? 

Guy Burton 21:25

May I jump in here Valentina and ask, because one of the things that, I mean, one of the things you mentioned was about religious leaders, authorities trying to make football more compatible with Islam as opposed to banning it. 

Guy Burton 21:40

I mean, in the West, a lot of attention is given to gender and, you know, the role of women in football and, you know, whether or not women can be included, if they can be included in football, you know, as players, whether they have to wear the hijab, you know, as fans, whether they're allowed to participate in the stadiums, or be present in the stadiums, for example, in Iran. 

Guy Burton 22:02

I wonder if you can talk a little bit about this, about, you know, the issue of gender and women in Islam in football. 

Francesco Belcastro 22:10

A lot of people in the West seems to be a bit obsessed with the hijab for some reason. 

Valentina Fedele 22:15

Speaking of this, for example, one of the experiences that I came across during my research is that of the Afghan football team. The Taliban, the Afghan Taliban... Because I was one of the people thinking that during the Taliban first government, football was dominant and the discovery was not in this way. 

Valentina Fedele 22:39

They just play football in a different way. For example, with the shorts that goes under the knee instead over the knee. And we have an national team, an Afghan national team in football, but male. The female one after the taking over of the Taliban has actually fled to Australia. 

Valentina Fedele 23:06

There were many athletes, actually, were both male and female, especially female, but male and female fled Afghan in the first days. And they play, they still play football, but they are not, they ask for recognition from FIFA, but they didn't get it yet because they are not recognised by a state. 

Valentina Fedele 23:28

So they actually a national team without a nation. I have to tell you that the question of Islam is usually being solved by the the federation, the sport federation. Actually, everybody, every in every discipline, women can compete with a hijab today. 

Valentina Fedele 23:50

We had some problem, more problem with, for example, in swimming with the burqini. There are people that say that maybe the the polyurethano- polyurethane material, it was helping them in swimming faster. 

Valentina Fedele 24:05

But actually, actually, there is not a real problem right now from from the point of view of the federation and also from the football federation that has been one of the first in approving the use of a job. 

Valentina Fedele 24:19

Anyway, I have to say that sometime creating a national women team in football in the most part of a Muslim majority country has been something made up from above. It was a way to promote an idea of modern countries sometimes, country capable of including women and so the constructing the idea of a majority country as places where women marginalize it. 

Guy Burton 24:46

But what you were talking about at the very start about Islam and its relationship to physical activity and sport, there's no distinction then in terms of gender in that respect. 

Valentina Fedele 24:57

Religiously speaking, there is no distinction between men and women in Islam. Religiously speaking. But they are not equal. If we talk it theologically, it's like a pyramid. Here there is God, here there is the male, here there is the female. 

Valentina Fedele 25:13

Triangle. So they are the same ground, but they're not the same. So both the body of the man and the body of the woman should be preserved for religious duty. Okay. And sport is, and for example, in the sunnah, there are plenty of example of the daughter, the Prophet's daughter, Muhammad's daughter, playing sport. 

Valentina Fedele 25:38

Running for example. So theologically in this way, the hijab, speaking about hijab is one of these symbolic stains if you want. It's something that attracts the Western gaze. And at the same time, the body of the athlete and the body of the female athlete, especially is the tool for expressing your idea of society. 

Valentina Fedele 26:08

So again, you are two different levels. You have for example, the governmental one. So even if you choose someone to bring your flag during the Olympic ceremony, for example, you choose a woman. The first woman was an Iranian one and it was called, of course, but for example, Jordan had women without staff in the ceremony. 

Valentina Fedele 26:41

It's up on the idea you want to give your country. And that you have the subjective level. So a single athlete that have hope for having recognized it, their right to be Muslim while to appear Muslim, to wear hijab while performing their physical activity. 

Valentina Fedele 27:04

At the opposite of this, there is the imposition of the hijab. And we have a lot of example lately in the Olympics, especially for people coming for athletes coming from Iran. So everybody recalled, for example, the climber, the Iranian climber, where the hijab fell down and then we don't know anything about that anymore. 

Valentina Fedele 27:39

So she got back home, she posted this post on Facebook saying that there was a mistake, it was fall down, it wasn't her fault, but as far as we know, her own house has been destroyed by the government. 

Valentina Fedele 28:01

So we don't know what happened after that. 

Guy Burton 28:05

So Valentina, one of the other things that we're curious about is- I mean, obviously you've done a lot of work in the Maghreb and specifically Algeria as well. And I wonder whether you can talk a bit more specifically about, you know, how Islam has played a role in football there, either amongst players, you know, the governing association there as well as fans. 

Guy Burton 28:24

I mean, to what extent does Islam, you know, is it significant in Algerian football? 

Valentina Fedele 28:31

I have to say that in general we have to consider, especially in the beginning, that Islam is intertwined with the same process of the colonization of Algeria. So it's part of the same ideology of the Front Liberal- the Liberation National in Algeria. 

Valentina Fedele 28:49

But it's really interesting to understand that, for example, in the case of Algeria, while football was introduced in the 1920, Algerian nationals couldn't play football according to colonial power. That, if you want, goes on till the 1940s and 1950s. 

Valentina Fedele 29:12

So the fact of playing football was resistance itself. And while they were banned from playing football, they actually found some team. And the first two teams were founded in the 1920s. The first one was called Mouloudia Club d'Alger. 

Valentina Fedele 29:33

And the second one, Union Sportive Musulmane de France. So they have Islam in the same name: Mouloudia and Mouloud, that is the birthday of the prophet, the first birthday. And the second one is Union Sportive Musulmane. 

Valentina Fedele 29:51

So both Islam and football, in that case, were a source of resistance to the colonial power. When the war for liberation of Algeria started in 1956, basically the front of the Liberation National takes on football as a tool to gain international legitimation again and to strengthen the country. 

Valentina Fedele 30:14

And so it was part of its practices. At one point in 1954, they actually called back all the Algerian national at that point were playing in French teams. They called them back and founded the Front National, the Front de Liberation National team. 

Valentina Fedele 30:37

That played with other countries that they think could sustain an independent Algeria. After the independence in 1962, we have two different ways for government and the Islamic institution to look at football. 

Valentina Fedele 30:56

On the one hand, we have the national team. And this national team is used in regional competition actually to assert the power of Algeria, to promote Algeria as a point of reference all Africa actually. 

Valentina Fedele 31:14

So there is this strong competition with Egypt in this. But on the other hand, the way government look at football and football fans in particular, during national competition is quite different because in Algeria, as in many countries in North Africa, I have to say football stadium actually represented for a long time and still now, one of the few places where people can gather together and organize themselves. 

Valentina Fedele 31:47

You have this in a football stadium and also, for example, a music concert, Rai concert, special popular music concert, or free mosques. So there are the three points where people can gather together. 

Valentina Fedele 32:03

And in this is playing also how football fans, why football fans have been so important, for example, in riots, in the let's call it the Arab Spring in 2010, but also speaking of Algeria in the 2019 Hirak moment, where actually football fans helped to organize manifestations because they have the ability, the experience both in confronting police- so confronting power directly- and at the same time in taking public space, in physicality, in keeping the order during the manifestation. 

Valentina Fedele 32:44

But it's really interesting also that stadium for a long time have been the place where political political instances, the opposition to the government have been, if you want, expressed through the chants, the football song. 

Valentina Fedele 33:07

In Algeria, there is a group that is called Turin, Turino. And this is really interesting, because Turin is basically considered as Juve! 

Francesco Belcastro 33:20

Which in Italy would be very controversial! 

Valentina Fedele 33:24

Yeah, but in North Africa, no. And so they have this, it's quite, if you want music genre aside, the football course. And they express, actually, they give the hymn to the revolt, for example, the most famous in Algeria is the La Casa de Mouradia, that's called La Casa de Papel... 

Speaker 4 33:52

Mm -hmm. 

Valentina Fedele 33:53

...that has been the hymn of the Hirak movement, but actually has been chanted before getting on the street, in the stadium. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:04

This is fascinating. Can I just remind for the benefit of listeners that we have an episode that came out just last week on the politics of football fans that compliments very well what you're saying? 

Valentina Fedele 34:16

One of the main issues in Algeria is the ethnic- linguistic representation of the Amazigh, the Kebili. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:26

Yeah. 

Valentina Fedele 34:27

This is one of the main issues and the places where these issues has been more represented, especially during the 80s, have been the football stadium. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:42

This has been really fascinating. Now we focus mostly on religion and on social activism. But part of your work has also looked at migrants and the role of football specifically. Can you tell us a bit about that? 

Valentina Fedele 34:56

I actually focused my research on unaccompanied minors and football, especially unaccompanied minors hosted as the Italian laws provide, actually, in a specific center, the [sale] or [cass] for minors, of course. 

Valentina Fedele 35:13

I met many of them and I have to tell you that football has different roles in their experience of integration, of migration actually. On the one hand, it represents a safe place, a special elite, because it's basically a space that is a non -normative space, it's considered something like art in their process. 

Valentina Fedele 35:43

Since the process of integration or inclusion provided by the Italian law is really normative, it's something that you can use also to help to reach other elements of integration. For example, it can be used to actually to get a job, actually to be well integrated in the society. 

Valentina Fedele 36:06

This can be, of course, also because of the limit of this research, because I did this research in one of the regions that has the most part of unaccompanied minors in Italy, that is Calabria, but the most part of these people at the end of the process leave Calabria to go to a place where there are a community and there is more possibility to get a job. 

Valentina Fedele 36:32

Most part of the people that I met didn't believe that even if they play football, also in little teams, but they actually paid, they were professional, if you want. It's something that they have gained an unaccompanied minor couldn't play football in a professional way until 2011, not 11, 2018 actually. 

Valentina Fedele 37:00

They couldn't do it, then FIFA made the regulation in order for them to be taken by football teams. And I should tell you that also those playing actually football, at a professional level, they couldn't see in football actually a job, a future job. 

Valentina Fedele 37:25

So always subordinated to their duty toward the family of a region and toward the migratory process. It is really, really important, compared with the imaginary they have, because every time I ask them to tell me which is your, for example, your favorite team or your favorite football players, they usually pick up top players, of course, but they are motivated by it, not because they were top players, but because they have an history that was quite similar to their history. 

Valentina Fedele 38:09

One of the most cited is Salah. And the history of Salah in this case doesn't matter if it's true or not true, if you want. The important thing is that they think it's organic to the experience, you know. Because they say the history of Salah, speaking about the boy that was in Egypt, and he was a good football player, but Egyptian authority didn't recognize he was very good. 

Valentina Fedele 38:38

So he had to move to Europe in order to express himself, but he's rich now, but he hasn't, they usually say really Islamic way of saying it, so he recalled the poor. 

Francesco Belcastro 38:59

Mm -hmm. 

Valentina Fedele 39:01

What has most meaning is because he recalled the poor and so invested money in his town of his region. So it's actually is what is a representation of what they are asking for themselves. 

Guy Burton 39:15

Yeah, and I mean, obviously, I'm getting the impression that much of this is focused around young men. I mean, I don't know whether there's a gender dimension here again, in your work with young migrants. 

Valentina Fedele 39:27

I'll tell you, the most part of an unaccompanied minors was men. I say 80% actually. Most part of women of girls, unaccompanied girls are victims of trafficking coming from North of Africa, especially Nigeria, here in Italy. I'm talking here in Italy. 

Valentina Fedele 39:51

Because there is also a cultural and religious and social stigma on women traveling alone. And then the most part of women and girls traveling alone, they have already an history; they cut, the relationship with the family of origin, in one another, especially coming from the world we are looking at. 

Valentina Fedele 40:18

It's different from people coming from Capo Verde or people coming from the Philippines. There is another chain, another migratory chain, in that case, in that specific case. And then as in an immigration process, the family actually beat on the strongest one. 

Valentina Fedele 40:44

So the people that live are the better off of the family. And so for cultural and religious and social reasons, a woman is not considered someone that is going to give you... The risk of failing is considered a measure in that case. 

Valentina Fedele 41:06

And the other thing has something to do with my personal interest right now, because I'm working in this moment on sport trafficking. And sport trafficking is something that concerns basically men, sport was trafficking, especially sport was trafficking, and is concerned with 15% of unaccompanied minors arriving in Italy. 

Valentina Fedele 41:34

And it's really demographically and also, if you want, geographically defined, because for the most part they are guys between 13 and 15, so they're very young compared to the other minors that are arrriving in Italy that are usually 17, 18. 

Valentina Fedele 41:56

They're very young, they mostly come from Egypt. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:02

So you'll have to come back and tell us more about this fascinating... 

Valentina Fedele 42:05

Once I finish it, of course! 

Francesco Belcastro 42:08

Valentina, thank you very much. This has been absolutely fascinating. 

Guy Burton 42:12

Yeah, there's so many different directions going off. Thank you so much for taking the time, Valentina, to speak with us. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:18

Guy, we need to remind the fittings to our listeners, right? 

Guy Burton 42:20

Yes, as ever. Just that if you liked what you heard, please share it, subscribe, you know, and maybe give us a review and also get in touch with us as well on other topics and subjects that we can research and work on and have guests come on. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:38

We're gonna be back here next week, Monday. And it's gonna be an episode on the European Super League with Anthony Macedo. So, a very, very interesting topic, very different from this one. Thank you very much. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:51

Thanks again to Valentina. 

Guy Burton 42:53

Thanks again Valentina, thank you. 

Valentina Fedele 42:56

Thank you very much, it's been a pleasure.