The Elephant on the Pitch: Football in India ft. Siddhanth Aney and Siju Mathew

Most people associate India with cricket. And yet the country has a long and rich history with football, based mainly in India's periphery rather than its Hindu heartland. Guy and Francesco talk to journalists and podcasters Siddhanth Aney and Siju Mathew about the origins of the game from the end of the nineteenth century and  India's relative regional success in the 1950s and 1960s. Despite the game's subsequent decline, football  gained a new lease of life from the 1990s and especially since the establishment of the Indian Super League since 2014 - although Siddhanth and Siju express mixed feelings about its structure and the lack of consultation with India's legacy clubs and organisations. They also discuss India's international prospects and the state of the women's game.

Siddhanth Aney is the co-host of 420 Grams and Siju Mathew runs the Totally Indian Football Show where you can learn more about football in this fascinating country.

Transcript

The Elephant on the Pitch: Football in India ft. Siddhanth Aney and Siju Mathew

Guy Burton 00:10

Hello and welcome to a new episode of the football podcast where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and this is my other cohost, Francesco Belcastro. How are you doing, Francesco? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:20

I am fine, Guy. How're you? 

Guy Burton 00:22

I'm doing well, thanks. And do you know what we're talking about this week? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:25

Well, I know we are talking about the politics of football in India, right? 

Guy Burton 00:28

I know. We're doing something that's completely, well very different for us. So this week we will be talking about football in India and the politics around it and to do that we've got a couple of fantastic guests to help us navigate that. 

Guy Burton 00:42

We've got Siddhanth Aney who is a multimedia journalist and based at Newsclick in New Delhi. Previously he's reported for Sports Illustrated India, The Hindustan Times and NDTV. He is the founder and co -host at 420 Grams, a podcast has run for 10 years on and about Indian football and we also got Siju Matthew who was a co host of the Totally Indian Football Show podcast. 

Guy Burton 01:06

And she's worked in and around Indian football for more than a decade as a journalist, as media manager for the Association of Indian Football Coaches, and as a video presenter on the English Premier League, which she has done in the Malayalam language.And she joins us from Mumbai. 

Guy Burton 01:21

So Siddhanth and Siju, welcome to the show. 

Siddhanth Aney 01:24

Thanks so much, guys. Thanks for having us. Thanks, for having me. 

Siju Mathew 01:27

Yeah, same here. Thank you so I just want to like, I mean, when I'm a stalwart with the facts which should be correct. I am not yet a decade completed. I'm in my ninth year of work. That's about it. And I don't have, fortunately or unfortunately, I do not have a co -host yet on my show. 

Siju Mathew 01:45

People that listen to me, they are stuck with me! Yeah! 

Siddhanth Aney 01:53

Well, I'm sure you're well aware that as far as facts are concerned, the world of Indian football is a bit sketchy, so we won't pick on whether it's nine or ten years!

Guy Burton 02:06

But anyway, listen, it's wonderful for the two of you to join us. And before we start, one of the things that we do like to ask guests is, you know, who is your football team? Can I go with you, Siddhanth? Who do you support? 

Siddhanth Aney 02:18

I don't have a team at the moment. I spent a long time or wasted a lot of time and money at the Arsenal. I was based in and around North London for a while, so that was my team for awhile. But then Wenger left and things changed and yeah. 

Siddhanth Aney 02:40

I suppose the club has gone in the same direction that he's gone in terms of certain broad political ideas! So that was the end of that and then in India somehow over the years there's a club called East Bengal based out of Calcutta which has been the team  that I've kind of yeah looked at a a little bit and still somewhat follow, but not into much detail. 

Siddhanth Aney 03:13

Much more neutral now. I don't have a full -time journalistic position but I'm way more neutral than I was when I was a full time journalist. 

Guy Burton 03:22

Right okay and Siju how about you? Who do you support? 

Siju Mathew 03:25

Well growing up in Mumbai it's been the European clubs, the clubs have supported around you. So I've grown up watching [Manchester] United and grown up supporting them. Not in a great state at this point but I think fell off the bull stand the mid post 2018 with whatever happened personally to me. 

Siju Mathew 03:41

So now I just watch and enjoy local football. I just feel I'm at a phase where if in a football stand you should be able to watch any kind of football near your place like you know even if it's we call it bali cricket like you know in your by lanes even your team which is like the area that I live in I should be able to go and watch that game. 

Siju Mathew 04:01

So at this point, I mean, I'm from Bombay, so I'll first have a close list to Bombay that was my team to play the Bombay. When I was there, we had a club called Mumbai FC. I was part of their fan club and stuff. 

Siju Mathew 04:15

So, at that point taking forward with Mumbai, at Mumbai city, some way or the others, though it doesn't resonate much, but yeah, it's local football more than anything else at this point. 

Guy Burton 04:27

Well, that's great. So one of the things we wanted to talk about in this episode is about football in India. And so we know that we want to talk football generally, but also sort of get the domestic game. 

Guy Burton 04:39

But before we do that, I think we need to get a sense of how football developed in India, because it's a country that I think that most of our listeners and Francesco and myself, you know, really associate more with cricket rather than football. 

Guy Burton 04:53

But there is a long history of football in India that goes back more than 100 years before independence even. So, you know, why is this sit down? Maybe you could explain a little bit about sort of, how football came to India and how it's how its developed. 

Siddhanth Aney 05:08

Broadly speaking, the game was brought to the country by the British stationed here in various capacities, particularly the military, which had its own regimental teams and sort of formation teams and things like that. 

Siddhanth Aney 05:29

And after a certain point, having established the Raj quite firmly in the country in pockets - in particularly pockets in the East and the West - a little bit in the South as well, the state of Kerala, where Siju is from. 

Siddhanth Aney 05:48

In some of these places, the sport took hold because of, I suppose, interactions between largely these soldiers and local populations. Once, like I said, once the Raj was established and firmly sort of in control of the entire Indian subcontinent, they then shifted some focus onto what is now known as hearts and minds in terms of sort -of conflict situations or occupational situations, however you look at it. 

Siddhanth Aney 06:20

So in that context, some of these tournaments were started up. Many of them had started only to include teams representing some these regiments and things like that. But eventually they were opened up to Indian clubs as well. 

Siddhanth Aney 06:38

Or sports clubs and organizations within the country started picking up the game, started joining, you know, or trying to play in some of these competitions. The Duran Cup, which is the oldest football tournament in Asia, is well over a hundred years old. 

Siddhanth Aney 06:54

It's still run today by the Indian military. And yeah, so there were certain seminal moments in that sense, where you know teams made up of Indians back in like, for example, 1911. Mohun Bagan, if I'm not wrong, which is another Calcutta -based club, part of the the Holy Trinity. The big three of Indian football, Mohammedan Sporting, East Bengal and Mohun Bagan. 

Siddhanth Aney 07:23

So they defeated the East Yorkshire Regiment in one of these tournaments and that sort of became also part of the freedom movement, the independence movement, where you had a team of barefoot brown boys playing against and, you know, defeating the almighty British army. 

Siddhanth Aney 07:52

So it kind of connected with what was happening in the country at that point. Bengal also being a major center for India's independence struggle, a lot of our leadership as well as participation from people came from this part. 

Siddhanth Aney 08:10

If you know the geography a little bit, it includes of course what is currently known as the Indian province of West Bengal but also what is now Bangladesh and then some surrounding areas. So in these parts football was massively popular and just caught on with the people, perhaps because the influence of cricket didn't spread so much to the peripheries. 

Siddhanth Aney 08:36

Cricket is being a much more expensive sport, requiring much infrastructure to play and also having a very clear kind of class divide within it. It was always the gentleman's game whereas football was the game of the masses as to some extent it remains even today. 

Siddhanth Aney 08:53

So all of those broad kind of things that happen even in the West as football developed, where working class people kind of took to this sport versus a rugby or a cricket which were more like played in the public schools and the Oxfords and the Cambridges and those kind places. 

Siddhanth Aney 09:14

So that's I suppose a broad sort of historical overview of how things can go. And then of course over time I think initially there was when, you know, when we were newly independent and the political leadership of our country, looked at India's taking a leading role in the newly independent set of nations as being non -aligned, looking at issues pertaining to the global South and trying to provide some kind of leadership in that regard. 

Siddhanth Aney 09:53

I think football was regarded as a global sport that, you know, kind of traveled across and beyond the Commonwealth. So as means to connect with particularly Asian countries. So we held, like the idea, to post the first Asian games in India, right? 

Siddhanth Aney 10:13

For example, to put forward that idea that even the Asian continent could excel at sport and looking at also this multidisciplinary, multi -national event as bringing Asians together on a common platform so we could share our experiences over the colonial past and how we are going to build or what at that point going, to be a sort of collective future for the continent and things like that. 

Francesco Belcastro 10:43

If I can jump in, can I jump, Siddhanth, into this. Because it's a very interesting point that you mentioned. And it seems to me like from an outsider point of view that in this phase after independence, India did enjoy some success at international level. 

Francesco Belcastro 10:57

A couple gold medals at the Asian Games, you said this successful organization of the first tournament, first Asian games. And there was also I think the final of the Asian Cup in 64, which I think was won by Israel if I remember correctly. 

Francesco Belcastro 11:15

So another interesting story there. But then it kind of seemed to decline after the 60s, at least at international level. Why is that the case? And does that mirror sort of decline of the sport within the country as well? Or is it only like an international thing? 

Siddhanth Aney 11:31

I think multiple factors kind played into it. One is that for very long, in India, sports administrators, people running sports, looked at all sports at, you know, kind of, what is that film about the four minute mile, I forget. 

Siddhanth Aney 11:58

Well, essentially amateur athletes playing the game, right? So you had a profession, you were either a student or you were in the military or whatever you were. But then you also played a sport and excelled at it. 

Siddhanth Aney 12:12

And so the state kind of funded this entire activity and controlled how it was run. So to this day, on paper, all national sports federations are sort of run by quasi state organizations, the Sports Authority of India, which is a government department under the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports in the central government. 

Siddhanth Aney 12:37

Each province also has its own state level department. They are largely the guys who fund infrastructure tournaments, particularly tournaments that go beyond regional levels. Pan -India tournaments are all sponsored by these state arms or departments as it were. 

Siddhanth Aney 13:02

So that idea of kind of amateur athletes or scholar athletes, or something like that, it kind of took grip. And it extended not just to athletes but to coaching staff as well. So the perspectives that we had, the exposure that we have was rather limited over time. 

Siddhanth Aney 13:25

And by, like you're mentioning the mid 60s, I think by then most of Asia had also achieved a certain level of independence and freedom where they were in their political development or in their political history. 

Siddhanth Aney 13:40

And so because it was the number one sport in many of these countries, they progressed way more rapidly was a lot more universal as part of their culture. Whether you look at West Asia, East Asia. All of these parts. 

Siddhanth Aney 13:57

It's only in this kind of middle part or southern part where football had competition from other sports. At the same time, then cricket was picking up as an international kind of sport, given that it was always well organized, at least within a difficult environment and always when funded because, like as I was mentioning earlier, a lot of the patronage came from people who already had a little of wealth from the country. 

Siddhanth Aney 14:25

So they were able to establish a more structured system from grassroots up, as well as reverse top down. And, yeah, and because, you know, I suppose we were considered closer to a position where we could compete with our colonial- ex -colonial masters in cricket at each stage where we were playing test matches against England, for example, then eventually going on to winning games against them. That captured the national imagination in a way. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:03

Yeah. 

Siddhanth Aney 15:03

And also then then leading up to the 1980s or the 70s when the cricket one day international format kind of took hold and the World Cups started happening. And in 83 when when India won the World Cup, that kind of coincided with the beginning of our neoliberal or our liberal kind of phase of our economy, you know, with everything that was happening with Soviet Union and all of that going on. 

Siddhanth Aney 15:34

So we decided to go the Western way and open up in that direction. Television came in, live broadcast came, in a big way, pan- India. And everyone viewed cricket as something you could easily put on TV and it brought everyone kind of together in the sense. 

Siddhanth Aney 15:52

When we won that World Cup as a complete upset back in 83, that kind of then blew everything out of the water, right? And then whatever resource we had, whatever structure we, had whatever energy we have, pretty much was all channeled into this one sport. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:12

Yeah, it's interesting, though, this sort of class divide that there was at the beginning, then sort reverberate still up to today to a certain extent, because it seemed like the structures or the money where it was, It's fascinating. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:23

I was wondering whether we could talk about India's domestic game and its development, because it's been a quite rich history in that sense. First, we have a sort of semi -professional Indian League that was set up. Then in 2014 we had the Super League, which in a way mirrors the Indian Premier League of cricket. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:46

Can you tell us a bit about the Super League specifically and how much has been... What has been his impact on the society? How popular is it? And who has been successful in this, in making football again a popular sport? 

Siddhanth Aney 17:03

Yeah, Francesco, so you kind of outlined it pretty well, but before that also semi -professional football existed to a large extent. And as I was mentioning, it was all run either directly by the state or quasi -state. 

Siddhanth Aney 17:18

So institutional teams, whether it's the oil and gas corperation... Air India, which was at that time the national airline. Of course the military had its own teams, as well as provinces or what we call states here in India, they all had their teams as well. 

Siddhanth Aney 17:36

So this idea of professional football clubs and professionalization of the structure took hold. And so institutional teams that up until now had run the game were sidelined slowly. And because of the advent of FC Kochin and all of these guys and them being able to pay players for the first time. Of course, they were not huge salaries compared to the rest of world. 

Siddhanth Aney 18:04

But in an Indian context, it was good money that these players were being to earn for the first time even though it's a semi -pro league and running only for a couple of months, right? So that kind of changed the environment and then everyone thought that like, oh, now in the next 10 years this league will become fully pro and the kids will have a proper pipeline. 

Siddhanth Aney 18:24

They will be able to concentrate just on their sport and become professional athletes, pro footballers. So, that's how things came to up until 97. And then from 97 onwards, after the NFL [National Football league], it then kind of evolved into what was known as the I-League, which was the top tier of competition and then they had lower structures as well as regional leagues, regional league in Calcutta, in Goa, Maharashtra, etc, that were kind of feeding into these Pan -India competitions. 

Siddhanth Aney 19:00

And maybe Siju can jump in and tell us what happened after 2014 when essentially this government organisation, the all- India quasi government organization, autonomous organisation called the All-India Football Federation decided that it would sell everything to a private company and allow them to come in and run the sport as they choose. 

Siju Mathew 19:21

But with the onset like as that's all you mentioned about what happened with FSDL [Football Sports Development Ltd] coming in as a parent company to be taking over ISL. We were all told that it was for the good of Indian football and it will benefit and it is because we get those players or get those number of eyeballs back in football. 

Siju Mathew 19:39

Now, another point that Siddhanth that was mentioning in the historic period of stuff. I also feel that one of the things that while football faded off as a sport, despite winning was because we stopped winning. 

Siju Mathew 19:53

And cricket just started winning everything. With little knowledge, among people, we failed to understand how global the sport of football is. Cricket again is only played among a few nations, but the competition of football is so large that we fail to understood why we are not there yet, because there is a lot more than just that, than numbers. 

Siju Mathew 20:18

But coming back to ISL, yes, it did get some buzz in 2014 because we had this whole thing of marquee players. When I say marquee players, they were all star players that all of us probably grew up watching in the European leagues but they are done and dusted and they have come here and they had star players for each of the clubs. 

Siju Mathew 20:37

Del Piero and all these guys were there. Zico was one of coaches that FC Goa had initially. So it was crazy to have all of those players and eyeballs. But eventually it comes up, I think football as a sport itself, such a commodity driven and a culturally driven sport, that after a point, the glitz and glamour will fade off. 

Siju Mathew 21:01

And then it boils down to what are you doing for the community? What are you are doing? Are we actually performing? We need to start talking about performance. I think that's where probably after the initial few years, the buzz that was there around the glamour kind of faded off and people that are asking questions about where is the development happening? Or where's the performance? Or are we doing with the club actually getting out there and meeting and gathering those communities? 

Siju Mathew 21:29

Like say a Mohun Bagan or East Begnal or for that matter, the clubs in the North East, Aizawal or the likes of Shillong. It's a sold out stadium even at a 2pm kick off. That's more about culturally driven people. 

Siju Mathew 21:44

But in metropolitan cities where you saw ISL in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore for that matter, it wasn't there. The numbers weren't there. And everyone was requesting about the performance, stuff like that. 

Siju Mathew 21:58

Did it, has it done some good? I wouldn't be negative and say that it hasn't done at all. The introduction of getting into the other cities or some kind of cityies. Yes, it went down to as a whole. Promotion and relegation wasn't there

Siju Mathew 22:12

for 10 year long period. Only last season has started a better promotion now. So slowly we are seeing something, but I think the questions will remain that can we not have a 20 game, 20 team please? Can we not open it up for everyone and then have some promotion, relegation, like a proper kind of thing. 

Siju Mathew 22:33

But yeah, again, for me the fact that has it, I mean, has it not completed... 

Francesco Belcastro 22:39

Sorry, Sichu, can you remind us how many teams we have at the moment? How is it structured in terms of where the teams are and how manny there are if you... 

Siju Mathew 22:46

So, in ISL right now there's 12 teams, so that's the top division, yeah. So I mean we started promotion last season so from this season in fact... So last year the I-League winner - so I-League has become the second division now. And the winners of the I-League is Punjab FC. Punjab is now playing in the ISL. And there's a stark difference right? Like I'm seeing all the cities here - the metropolitan cities, the main ones - have grown up watching the European leagues and when they look at these clubs or the performance on the pitch, you're likie it's not a direct comparison... There's nothing to watch and stuff like that. But in smaller pockets, we all go back to footballing powerhouses like Kolkata, Kerala, Goa, which is already there, part of their culture. 

Siju Mathew 23:37

But to see a city like Bangalore now buzzing so far is... I mean I'm not criticising ISL.When the Bangalore FC came into the I-League and now the ISL... But we do see the spread of certain things spreading out in the other pockets as well but the growth is very small and I think what we fail to understand in Indian football fans or lovers or whatever etc of course is that we are impatient. And there's a bunch and because I think somewhere, yeah, I mean it's been 10 years again when you look at ISL in 10 year we can ask questions, there are questions being asked of the performance. 

Siju Mathew 24:16

I mean, we've had a really bad Asian Cup. I wasn't surprised, but anyway. So, it's a lot to look at. But have we got the players? Have we got some players here and there? Are the eyeballs there on the players? 

Siju Mathew 24:34

Definitely, yes. And when Siddhanth was talking about the payment, the paychecks for coming in. I think at this point, somewhere, some of the players were taking some big bucks, some of them more than what they deserved, but I don't want to comment about that! 

Siju Mathew 24:49

But I would say overall, largely, there is definitely a step, like a steps, fan, step kind of treatment for the other leagues because of the close nature of ISL at that point. It would be nice to open up and have the clubs, clubs like Aiwzal who have no money to show, but they've always produced players. 

Siju Mathew 25:12

So you have to at least give them some kind of credit, you know, and help them kind of be there. There are good sides to it, but I think what we largely lost, like see is compensating clubs that have already been there, even before. Now, [?] jst got demoted with no reason given to them through to the I-League. 

Siju Mathew 25:31

And they're constantly producing players. That's where you turn to for it's in the hot bed of football like say a Guzharam or Manipur or Shillong for that matter. So I just feel that if it's for everyone's good, going ahead we see a league that has 20 plus teams and you know, yes there are definitely you can put in slightly at this point a club needs to show the back balance to so and so amount, certain amount needs be going down to grassroots and everything. Fair enough. But can we not also, you know, take in these clubs who've been there, even the four new ones, and give them that liberty and because they're anyway doing it with zero budget, they are doing a lot already. 

Siju Mathew 26:12

So, a lots of flaws, yes, definitely we can sit here all day and talk about it. But I would also say that I wouldn't completely negate the good things it has brought even though it's a very, very small amount. 

Siju Mathew 26:25

I hope I made sense that Siddhanth can say if I'm correct or not. 

Siddhanth Aney 26:32

Just going back a bit, couple of years before the Indian Super League kicked off, the All India Football Foundation signed what was called master rights agreement with- at that point it was a joint venture between IMG and Reliance, which is one of the largest corporations in India owns large chunks of this country and is friends with people in power and things like tha.  Because it was viewed essentially as a money problem that there wasn't capital in football in India or sport in India, that somebody with some big patron had to come in and infuse this cash. 

Siddhanth Aney 27:22

That was what was missing between us and the rest of the world. Everyone else is investing and broadcast had kicked off with billions of dollars being put into the sport through television rights and things like that. 

Siddhanth Aney 27:39

We decided to go the same way. But when we do things here, we do them a little differently, especially when it comes to divesting, you know, our assets, state -owned assets and things like that. First, we kind of devalue what exists. 

Siddhanth Aney 27:58

And so the guy at the time running football and taking all these decisions was the same guy who was previously running the Ministry of Civil Aviation. A guy called Praful Patel is a big politician with a party called the NCP, the Nationalist Communist Party, an offshoot of the old Congress. 

Siddhanth Aney 28:18

So as he did with the airline, where he basically created a whole chunk of debt, ran it into the ground, devalued it, and then brought in private players to buy it at scrap prices, t's now been sold to the Tatas, which are another big company. 

Siddhanth Aney 28:41

He did a very similar thing with the football structure. So for about $80 million or $90 million, maybe, dollars at that point in 2011, for 15 years this master rights agreement was signed between these two entities without consulting any of the existing stakeholders, like Siju was mentioning, the clubs that that had existed for over 100 years and put whatever into the sport. 

Siddhanth Aney 29:10

Without a consultation, without consensus between these parties, this deal was signed. And essentially, your house, your mother, everything was sold to this corporation, which could then create a closed structure with the understanding that trickle -down economics will eventually go down to the grassroots. 

Siddhanth Aney 29:34

Now, that we know, particularly, you follow things in the Global South, trickle down economics don't work. People who are poor remain poor and the rich, those gaps continue to widen and that's exactly what has happened and in that sense football as always is a mirror reflecting economy, society, culture, thought processes and how India as a country has evolved post -liberalization. 

Siddhanth Aney 30:04

So I'm not so sure about the positives that you Siju has mentioned. I am not even talking about the performance or the end result, the output. Just looking at the structures and the processes that we have created or not created. 

Siddhanth Aney 30:25

Those are so, I suppose - forgive the term, but half -assed - and sort of just focused on- because a lot of the influence for this came from one man. There's a guy called Lalit Modi, who was the brains behind the in Premier League of cricket, which took the sport of cricket to also another level, even though it was where it was. 

Siddhanth Aney 30:47

It has taken the Board of Control for Cricket in India into one of the richest sporting bodies in the world. At one point their shirt sponsorship was more than what Man United and these big clubs were getting and it might still be the case. 

Siddhanth Aney 31:02

So he went to the United States to study and he saw the sporting sort of structure there whether it's the NBA or the NFL and its franchise model. And he based the Indian Premier League on that model: a closed, essentially, model with no promotion, relegation with franchises, not clubs, right? 

Siddhanth Aney 31:24

So whether it's from a semantic perspective, or from structural perspective or a process perspective the outlook was very much based on what these couple of people, all of them who happened to be major capitalists brought in, and then they had overall - because they were signing the paychecks - 

Siddhanth Aney 31:44

they had final say on what was happening and what was not. So the existing league which Siju was mentioning, the I -League which existed and was at that point in 2012 -2013 actually thriving and at its peak viewership numbers were going up. You know, the level of play was getting better all of those things were happening. 

Siddhanth Aney 32:03

And they were having more or less organically without massive infusions of cash. These guys came in and then bought the whole scenario, right? So a guy who was running, let's say 100 before the league started in 2012, actually, they started to recruit players, the in your what you were making went from 100 to 1000, without any difference in what you were putting in or any of those things, right? So what they did smartly was to kind of buy all of the elite talent that existed in the sport. 

Siddhanth Aney 32:38

So you have no resistance from the players on whose labor the entire structure is founded. There was massive resistance on these older clubs that had existed for all of these years and done all of those things. 

Siddhanth Aney 33:01

But eventually money won that. They created a bunch of new entities in new places. And they said, you know, the rest of you can do whatever you want. We don't really care. It's written in the agreement that we can start our own league, and that that league - the new league - will automatically become the top tier of Indian football. 

Siddhanth Aney 33:22

So, so that was the extent to which the sellout happened. And now we are facing sort of we're at the end of that 15 year period. In 2025, this master rights agreement will come up for discussion once again and if we have time, I don't know, we can get into how things have developed on the political front and how that impacts what will happen in football going forward from 2025 onwards at least in my mind. But essentially this is what has brought us up to this point and so domestically our players today, yes, there are earning ore money, they are able to have a decent sort of lifestyle, etc. 

Siddhanth Aney 34:05

But many of them are making that money sitting on the bench. Until last year, we had six foreign players allowed to play in the 11. So our boys were goalkeepers and, you know, playing wing positions, right? 

Siddhanth Aney 34:22

The entire spine of the - the core of your, I suppose, structure - the center backs, the central midfielders, strikers, all foreign players recruited from, like Siju was mentioning, either players who were past their prime but still big names or second division players from Europe who are at a technical level, much better of course, even physically much better than where we were. 

Siddhanth Aney 34:51

So they came and kind of upped the standard and the tempo and intensity in the hope that people will start watching on television. So a lot of the infrastructure also that has been developed whether it's the quality of pictures, the quality in broadcast of ISL, now you have 15 -17 cameras, the same kind broadcast that you would get for a cricket game or similar like that. 

Siddhanth Aney 35:14

It's all in hope, that a television audience will be drawn into it rather than people who you need to actually engage at ground level, who need you to bring into the sport. So that has been, in my opinion, the approach to developing football. 

Siddhanth Aney 35:33

And there are, of course, many aspects of it that we can talk about, whether it's betting and then that kind of manipulation of the system, you know, and how that plays in. Of course, [there's] a soft power approach. 

Siddhanth Aney 35:44

We're not now talking about... we've hosted 2 Under-17 World Cups. We're talking, about hosting a senior World Cup at some point. Of course we understand that that's the only way our national team can qualify for these tournaments! And that will be the next boost that football will get and to make it a commercially viable entity. 

Siddhanth Aney 36:04

So the purpose is not to develop the sport as such but it's more focused on achieving some kind of commercial success. And then the hope that when that commercial success comes, that will drive the quality forward. 

Siddhanth Aney 36:18

So to me, it's a bit ass backwards, but that's a perspective thing. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:23

That's fascinating. Absolutely. Siju, if you had to advise listeners on one aspect of the relationship between football and society, football and politics in India, that would be interesting to look at in the next couple of years. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:39

You've got something in mind that that people should be looking for? Is it the development of the Super League? What is interesting? What is the new development?

Siju Mathew 36:48

I think... I mean as Siddhanth was talking about, you look at how will we will look at the end of the masters right agreement, it is going to end the contract at the end of 25. I feel that where the current scenario is, is crazy because he mentioned about what it was earlier. 

Siju Mathew 37:08

Right now, all this has been working altogether, handling AIFF, and that's directly connected to the current government as well. The one who's at a helm at this point, from the current policy. So it's going to be definitely interesting to see, even if you ask me this question, if I'm put on the spot, I don't know what to expect. 

Siju Mathew 37:30

At this point I am somewhere and all gone on to become this person who whatever happened, something that happened. I'm going to focus on the good things, the little good things which is catching up with people, sharing their stories of what they've done in this work, highlight them. Because that's where we are all missing a lot of things. Because a lot work has been put in. A lot of effort by a lot of people have gone through, even if it is to make an or even if it is to make ISL to make whatever viable, and people have been there. It's not a very happy situation that everyone is taking. 

Siju Mathew 38:07

Everyone knows because at the end of it, everyone has a football hard -fought stand who is passionate about and wanting the sport to grow in this country. But it I don't know what to expect, seriously. 

Siju Mathew 38:19

It's scary to look at sometimes. Sometimes you also feel that as we continue, what's going to happen to this situation in that case everything is taken over by one person at this point in this government or the business tycoon... While I say all this I'm sitting in the office of one of them!

Francesco Belcastro 38:38

B careful! Be careful then of who's listening!

Siju Mathew 38:47

But yeah I think if at all there is some good that's coming out of this, I'm still somewhere, I don't know, I was still, when I, I think couple until few years now, because Indian football makes you that. 

Siju Mathew 39:00

It gives you the taste of everything: depression, this, that. You go through a lot of rollercoaster of emotions, rising into the heart of this sport. And also, I also think that Siddhanth probably would agree with me that the people that we've met on the way, or the journey, whether it's players, whether its... whoever it is, the fact that they've put so much effort and they have gone so long, right? 

Siju Mathew 39:20

Me and Siddhanth can sit back and we were just probably riding on their momentum of their stories of what they've done on the pitch. We were sitting back writing and sharing their story. But they have been there in the thick and thick whether it's good or bad. 

Siju Mathew 39:34

They are the ones who were affected even as simple as the story that's happening in Manipur. And so Siddhanth himself has done a great piece on how it's affected a player, [?] on his family. 

Siju Mathew 39:49

And that is just one bit: who's talking about it. None of us are actually talking but how all of this will affect our athletes or whoever it is. And today we are talking a lot about mental health and all that. 

Siju Mathew 40:00

But I think there's a lot, you know... It's going to be parallel to whatever is happening out in the world. It can affect and whatever's happening in currently in India just now. Nothing major as opposed to the others. 

Siju Mathew 40:12

It's very quietly done, very subtly done. But it will be interesting to see how that affects football directly. And what I mean by that is that as of now, it's very quietly done. We don't look at football as has it been affected by politicians or not or by the politics of the country or what not. But it'll be very interesting to see how it goes in the coming years. 

Siju Mathew 40:33

I hope I've made sense. 

Siddhanth Aney 40:35

Just to take the same question that you presented to Siju in terms of what to look at, particularly from an outside perspective, but also as much I think for a vast majority of Indians who are getting into the sport. 

Siddhanth Aney 40:50

One is, it presents a massively diverse picture and a real picture of what this country is. A lot of the people who were involved with the sport in India come from the periphery. So the regions where football is popular even today in India:

Siddhanth Aney 41:07

they are all outlying... Siju mentioned Manipur and Mizoram [states], which are in the northeast, bordering Burma, you know, in far east of India. They provide a vast majority, even though they are a very tiny chunk of our overall population, a large majority of our pro footballers today, men and women - to what extent the women are pro - come from these tiny states. 

Siddhanth Aney 41:41

Goa and Kerala, Kashmir, Punjab: all border states. All states with outside influence. But states where different religions are practiced, where food, language, nothing is in common. And yet, if you look at the lineup or the roster of any football team, you will find representation from all of these parts. 

Siddhanth Aney 42:03

And in fact, the political heartland of India, what is called the Hindi heart land, Uttar Pradesh, North India the Hindu speaking belt, where there is a Hindu majority and all those things: those parts are underrepresented as of now, as far as football are concerned. 

Siddhanth Aney 42:23

So it gives you in that sense, it opens you up, particularly if you come from those parts, your mainland Indian, mainstream Indian... Football opens up to you, this country in a manner that not many other things can in a digestible way. 

Siddhanth Aney 42:39

And the other important and I think extremely valuable thing to look at is how the women's game is being structured and developed in India, which can be a whole other conversation. But particularly, if we are looking at the focus of getting an Indian team into a senior World Cup. 

Siddhanth Aney 42:57

The focus has to be on the women because they are much better positioned to do it for various reasons than the men and the kind of stepchild treatment that women get in this country in general is also reflected in football. 

Siddhanth Aney 43:15

Our women's team is playing a four-nation tournament, which they played recently, a four nation tournament where, you know, they sort of, it was probably the first time they won a game against the European side, and things like that. Estonia, I believe. 

Siddhanth Aney 43:37

But on the other hand, the domestic structure that's being created for the women is very much only from an optics perspective, very much from a taking the box perspective, because FIFA gives large grants for the development of the women's game. 

Siddhanth Aney 43:54

And that money, just to take that money you have to check these boxes. What you are actually doing on the ground is whether it's connected or not, or even real or not good, are completely different things. 

Siddhanth Aney 44:07

And during the pandemic, this point really came out, what the difference was. Even though FIFA specifically said that you will only get this money if you spent it on the women's game, the money came in but nothing happened really. 

Siddhanth Aney 44:21

The men's league started off in bio bubbles two years before anything happened at the senior level for the women. So these are I think to me two critical aspects of how... from the political and the social side and cultural side,  people who are getting into it or have an interest in the sport can look at things.

Francesco Belcastro 44:46

Definitely. Before I pass it to Guy, can I just say, this has been a fantastic introduction to Indian football and for the listeners that like us don't know much about it. Your podcasts: 420 Grams and the Total Indian Football Show are fantastic starting points for listeners and we really encourage them to check them out to obviously learn way more about Indian football. 

Guy Burton 45:08

Siddhanth and Siju: thank you so much for taking the time to come in and talk to us about the development and history of football in India, as well as where football is today. Really interesting in contrast to what you both have to say in terms of what the Super League is doing, what kind of product it is and how it's contributing towards the development of the football. 

Guy Burton 45:28

That's been fantastic. And now, basically just leave it so if I can just say thank you to both of you. 

Siddhanth Aney 45:34

Yeah, thank -you, it has been fun. 

Guy Burton 45:37

So just before we go we should probably just also say that you know as ever we are always open to hearing from listeners as to what they thought about the shows that we're doing as well as what other topics and guests we could probably approach to do future ones. And you can do that by reaching out to us on all various social media that's Twitter, that Blue Sky, that's Facebook, it's Instagram. And so it pretty much leaves it for me to say, thank you again to our fantastic guests and to Francesco and I'll see you next week, then. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:09

Yeah, thank you.