Football has a gambling problem. In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to award winning investigative journalist Steve Menary about the growth of gambling in the sport, from the football clubs who take the industry's money to the ways that betting companies are encouraging people to bet. Steve also talks about the grey world in which many of these companies operate, acquiring a license in one country to enable them to operate in another country where betting is illegal as well as the authorities' willingness to turn a blind eye. The co-hosts and Steve also discuss the UK government's proposed review of gambling and whether it will make any difference at all.
For those interested to learn more, some of Steve's reporting can be read in more detail at Play the Game.
Football has a gambling problem. In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to award winning investigative journalist Steve Menary about the growth of gambling in the sport, from the football clubs who take the industry's money to the ways that betting companies are encouraging people to bet. Steve also talks about the grey world in which many of these companies operate, acquiring a license in one country to enable them to operate in another country where betting is illegal as well as the authorities' willingness to turn a blind eye. The co-hosts and Steve also discuss the UK government's proposed review of gambling and whether it will make any difference at all.
For those interested to learn more, some of Steve's reporting can be read in more detail at Play the Game.
Unsafe bet? The politics of gasmbling in football ft. Steve Menary
Francesco Belcastro 00:09
Hello and welcome to a new episode of football, the podcast where football meets politics. I'm your host, Dr. Francesco Belcastro, and you're with me is my other host, Dr. Guy Burton. Hello Guy, how are you?
Guy Burton 00:19
I'm good. Thanks, Francesco. Good to see you again. So what are we talking about this week?
Francesco Belcastro 00:24
Today is your favorite topic, isn't it? I know it's one of your favorite topics!
Guy Burton 00:29
I wouldn't say that. I'm probably the last person to be. I'm going to learn a lot today because I don't do this kind of stuff.
Francesco Belcastro 00:38
Yeah, I'm not saying you're into gambling. I'm saying that it was an episode you really wanted to do for a long time, in this sense. It's actually one of my favorite topics.
Guy Burton 00:46
And can I also just plug the fact that actually this is actually a suggestion from a listener as well. So there we go. So topic- topic done this week. Ticked off.
Francesco Belcastro 00:56
Yes. Thank you again our listeners for suggesting the topic and to discuss this topic we've got an excellent speaker because Steve Menary. Now Steve is a journalist and researcher who's been studying and writing about different aspects of football in the gambling industry.
Francesco Belcastro 01:16
In particular around sports integrity, match fixing, multi -club ownership issues and illegal betting as well. He's the co -winner of the European Center for Press and Medium Freedom Investigative Journalism for Europe Impact Award in 2023.
Francesco Belcastro 01:35
So he's really really well qualified to take us to this interesting topic that we know is so pervasive in today's world. Hello Steve!
Steve Menary 01:45
Hi guys, nice to speak to you both.
Guy Burton 01:47
Yeah, and well, thank you for joining us.
Francesco Belcastro 01:48
Yeah, thanks for joining.
Steve Menary 01:50
My pleasure.
Guy Burton 01:50
And listen, before we start Steve, we always like to ask guests, do you have a football team and how are they doing?
Steve Menary 01:57
Yeah, I do. Yeah, my team's Bournemouth and I think they're actually doing very well at the moment. That's got a young, exciting manager playing pretty good football. So, yeah, I think on that front, pretty good.
Steve Menary 02:09
Best they've been for a long time, really.
Francesco Belcastro 02:11
But they're fun to watch, Bournemouth, aren't they? They really are fun to watch.
Steve Menary 02:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steve Menary 02:15
They're trying to make it, you know, sort of, yeah, entertaining football. So yeah, that does seem...
Guy Burton 02:20
And it must be quite nice to have a team that's, you know, because, I mean, I've been following, you know, following football for years, right? And it's only really in the last few years, well, I'd say now for you, I mean, it's decade now, but since Bournemouth finally got to the Premier League, but it must be really satisfying you after, after all those years of them in the second division, so all the other leagues to sort of see them up at the top then, or does it, how does it change for you?
Steve Menary 02:42
No, no, I think, well, I think there was a record that we held for the longest period of time in the same division. I think that might have been encompassed part of the war, but I think it was something like 42 years.
Steve Menary 02:51
We've been in the same league, but, you know, which was, you know, so not a lot happened really. And then probably about sort of 20 or years ago, I started taking my son when he was really small and he kind of grew up with us.
Steve Menary 03:03
Just, you know, and things were really bad then. He can't really remember that very well. Old [inaudible] was on the pitch, arguing with the fans, and it was just dreadful, really. And he's kind of forgotten all that, but he's kind of grown up watching us get promoted and, you know, all the great things that have happened over that period of time.
Steve Menary 03:19
And then, you know, laterally, we did get relegated, so maybe it's a bit of a, you know, need a bit of reality check sometimes. But it's, yeah, it's hard to imagine some of the other stuff when it was like, you know, two, three thousand people in the ground, and that's what every week is, according to him.
Francesco Belcastro 03:34
Okay, let's chat a bit about football and gambling. So I mean, one thing that it's obvious, even to people who are not experts on these is that the sort of gambling industry has now taken such a central role.
Francesco Belcastro 03:49
It's so visible in football. And I think in particular about countries in Europe where maybe there isn't such a long tradition of sort of betting industry. We often say Britain with these, but even in other European countries now, it's so prevalent.
Francesco Belcastro 04:07
What is driving these? Would you say, is it a recent phenomenon? We've seen sort of sponsorships. What is the sort of thing that's prompted it?
Steve Menary 04:17
Well, I think the betting companies have got money to spend. So in terms of sponsors, whoever's offering the largest amount of money is what the clubs are going to take. You know, the clubs can be pretty venal, if I'm honest about it.
Steve Menary 04:28
And, you know, so if the betting companies are offering the most, then that's the deals they're going to take. And I think betting now in particular, certainly for sort of younger generation, it's become part of watching a game of football.
Steve Menary 04:39
So it's almost certain for a certain generation of people, not me, I'm a bit older than that, but, you know, where as long as you can't watch a game without having a bet, which I find quite insidious personally, you know, I think, you know, that doesn't need to be part of the game.
Steve Menary 04:52
But that's what they're selling. That's the big thing that they, that's what they want. And they're pretty much got it, you know.
Guy Burton 04:58
It does feel as if it's kind of, at least when we look at shirt sponsors, for example, I mean, they've really kind of blown up in the in the last decade or so. I mean, you never used to see gambling in and around the ground before.
Guy Burton 05:11
So it's there something about, you know, that these the clubs can't get sponsorship for anywhere from anywhere else, or that the sheer amount that the gambling firms are offering is enough. I mean...
Steve Menary 05:27
I thought, no, for sure they can get sponsors from somewhere else, but they're just paying less. I think what we're seeing now, certainly with the points deductions in the Premier League, they're starting to punish the new financial regime by taking points off clubs.
Steve Menary 05:41
So the clubs need as much income as they can from sponsorship. And so that becomes really important. So it doesn't matter. It could be a charity offering X amount, 99% of the clubs are going to say, betting companies are paying more, let's take it.
Steve Menary 05:54
And in particular, illegal betting companies are paying more, fine, let's have that. And that's what they're doing.
Guy Burton 06:01
So let's talk a little bit about the social and political implications then of the gambling culture. Because as you said, it there is some younger people are seeing football now and wanting to or see football and gambling coming together, which is odd to me as well.
Guy Burton 06:15
I mean, when I was growing up, you know, in the 80s and early 90s, the only kind of gambling I ever saw, I mean, even then it didn't seem much like gambling was just playing the pools. You know, my grandmother sitting there doing doing the numbers.
Steve Menary 06:26
Fixed odds, yeah.
Guy Burton 06:27
But yeah, but can you tell us a little bit about, I mean, we've touched upon the fact that the industry of, you know, offers has a significant amount that it can offer these clubs. But can we also talk about the impact that, you know, gambling is having, you know, both in society as well as on the governance of the game?
Guy Burton 06:44
What are your thoughts about that?
Steve Menary 06:46
Well, the internet has changed everything, hasn't it? It's changed, you know, so much in our abilities for us to talk to each other in the way that we're doing and all sorts of other things like that.
Steve Menary 06:55
So, and most gambling regulation, you know, the growth in the internet in the last decade or so has outpaced gambling regulation. So it's, you know, that's why it's everywhere, you know, and people are watching it, you know, there's certain actors who don't name particular names, you know, that you're just getting bombarded with their face or something like that, big brother.
Steve Menary 07:13
And, you know, it's everywhere. It's very, very hard to get away from it now. So therefore, it kind of seeps into the sort of the culture of the game. And I don't think a lot of people necessarily want that.
Steve Menary 07:26
And the betting companies, you know, despite the regulated ones, I know we'll get on to the regulated and unregulated in a little bit. But, you know, they're supposed to be limits on, you know, they're not supposed to offer, you know, offer bets to people that can't afford it and that kind of thing.
Steve Menary 07:40
And there's a lot of issues around that, really. And there's, you know, there's some people who do some very good work trying to curb the regulated betting companies. And, you know, and what they do in the unregulated ones are very hard to curb.
Steve Menary 07:53
So it's very difficult. So it's having a malign impact on society. That's my personal opinion, you know,
Francesco Belcastro 07:59
I mean, your work has focused a lot on the legal side of the industry recently. However, it seems to me, it seems to us that sort of what it's legal and what it's illegal isn't really clear. It's a bit of sort of blur line, particularly because some of these companies operate across borders.
Francesco Belcastro 08:17
Is that the case? And is that a problem in itself, would you say?
Steve Menary 08:22
Yeah, I think, I think not everyone kind of understands that you're looking at, you know, legal, illegal, and what they kind of call the gray market. So, so just as kind of, I suppose, to sum it up really, so a legal betting company will be one that has a license with a company within which they operate, you know, Ladbrookes, Paddy Power, someone like that.
Steve Menary 08:40
If they decide not to pay out on your bet, there's a system you can fall back on as part of that regulation, that you know, to say, you know, if they're in the wrong, you can do something about that, you know, and there's also another requirement for the legal betting companies is if they see suspicious betting in a match, so maybe loads of money goes on, because, you know, when we're talking now to the in -play betting is what change is changing everything, which is betting within moments of the game.
Steve Menary 09:07
If they see something happening in a game, loads of money going on, let's say, a yellow card or maybe a goal at a certain time in the game, and then that transpires, that that's suspicious. It doesn't mean something, something has happened, but it is suspicious and it's worthy of investigation.
Steve Menary 09:23
So, those betting companies, as part of their license, have to inform the authorities about that particular game, and what they also do, because they've got the account details, this is the important thing, so they can share their details, so if they can look, if they can see my name, and I've put loads of money on this particular incident happening in this game, then they'll start looking at me, all the authorities, the police will look at me. So that's a legal betting company, you know, I'm not saying that they're perfect, because they're definitely not, but, you know, that's better than the other ones.
Steve Menary 09:53
Then you've got the kind of, what you might call the gray mark, or pretty much for me, I think they're all illegal really, is companies that are saying, well, I've got a license for, let's say, Curacao, or the Philippines, where the regulation is fairly meaningless, and that means I can offer bets in Benin, or something like that.
Steve Menary 10:10
And what these illegal companies are doing is they're typically, they're offering bets in countries where there is no betting regulation, or the betting regulation that there is, is basically based on casinos, or land type betting, you know, shops and things like that, where the regulation certainly hasn't caught up.
Steve Menary 10:26
And these companies will say, oh, it's okay, and we've got a license to Curacao, doesn't matter, you know, we're a good company, blah, blah, blah. No, they're not, no they're not at all, you know. They say that they are, but, you know, there's been... I'm not saying they're all bad like that, because they're not, but there's been multiple instances of those companies with offshore licenses, what's going on, you can't find out, who owns a lot of those companies, you know, but they're sponsoring clubs all over the place, so there's multiple problems with them.
Steve Menary 10:55
And then the third side of it is clubs that are betting companies that simply don't have a license at all. And there's probably some people who say that the gray market and the illegal ones are all illegal, because actually they haven't got a license to sell, to offer betting in the company they're offering it in.
Steve Menary 11:10
And some of these companies, you know, they're offering betting in countries, you know, where betting is illegal, where it's not allowed, in some cases, you know, like Somalia, for example, they'll be offering offshore betting, you know, a web -based betting in Somalia, betting is illegal in Somalia, and there's other countries like that as well, but they think it's okay because they've got a license and some, you know, some dodgy jurisdiction.
Francesco Belcastro 11:34
Can I ask a follow -up question on this, Steve? Now, it seems to me that even though, like, as a foreigner, or someone born out of this country, I very much associate Britain with sort of a particular kind of betting culture, for example, horse racing and that kind of thing.
Francesco Belcastro 11:53
It's very much part of the stereotype that we have of Britain as foreigners. However, when it's about football, it seems to me that Britain, there have not been big scandals around football betting in Britain on the same scale there have been in other European countries.
Francesco Belcastro 12:11
Is that because the system, there have been, but probably not as big. Is that because the system works differently in Britain as just being kind of a... How can we explain this difference if there is a difference really with other countries?
Steve Menary 12:25
there have been some betting scandals at a lower level because you can bet down to an absolutely absurd level in this country. The 8th Division, the 8th tier of football, you can have in -play betting on those games.
Steve Menary 12:37
I personally think the clubs don't want it, the FA know the clubs don't want it, and the FA do absolutely nothing about that because they're working hand in hand with the companies collecting the betting data.
Steve Menary 12:51
At the lower level, there has been some problems. At the higher level, I think part of it's money because actually, if you look at some of the players and what they were earning in the Premier League, they're going to be very, very hard to corrupt because they're getting paid so much money, and also the education is probably better to be fair to the clubs and the FA and people like that.
Steve Menary 13:08
There is better education on the whole for the players, although we've seen examples of what's going on in Italy and it's come over here to Italy, Ivan Toney as well. They clearly weren't well enough, but it's pretty hard to corrupt those players.
Steve Menary 13:25
Unless you're going to kidnap a member of their family, and I'm not saying this to be flippant now, but how else are you going to get those guys to throw a game? Because whatever you offer them, it's probably not going to be as much as the clubs are actually paying them.
Steve Menary 13:35
That's why I think you're not seeing it at the top level. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it's unlikely really. At the lower level, it does go on, the level of education at the lower level is really not very good.
Steve Menary 13:48
One of the projects we did, we were looking at the companies that collect data from the low -level games. We did it in England, in Britain, and then we did it in some European countries as well. These data companies, they're collecting this data and they're selling data to the legal companies.
Steve Menary 14:05
I showed this to the chairman of one of these clubs, I was with her, and I explained how the whole situation works. I said, here's your game on this Russian betting website. You can access all these illegal websites via a VPN.
Steve Menary 14:21
Although they might be geo -blocked in this country - that's the point to make. They might geo -block them in Somalia or in England or whatever. You can get around them with a VPN in seconds. Everybody that wants to bet on them knows that.
Steve Menary 14:33
All these games are getting offered on these low -level games. I said to this lady, she said, well, we know we can't bet on our own games. This is an English not eighth -tier club now. I said, no, I said, no.
Steve Menary 14:46
You can't not bet on your own games. I said, you can't bet on any games. I said, you can't bet on the World Cup final. You can't bet on the Premier League. You can't even bet on the League above you.
Steve Menary 14:57
That was a failure of the education by the FA in that these clubs, really nice, intelligent lady, didn't realize that actually, hold on, we thought we just can't bet on our own games. So we told all the players they mustn't do that.
Steve Menary 15:12
Well, actually, they can't bet on any games at all. And that's how, if you look at the lower level, there's actually loads and loads of players being banned for betting on their own matches. Absolutely loads of them and very few are the Premier League.
Steve Menary 15:23
And that's, I think, a mix of culture and money. And that's probably why, to go back to your original question, why there's not been the fixing problems in this country that perhaps has been in other countries.
Francesco Belcastro 15:34
Just for the benefit of listeners, the case of Tonali and other Italian players and the case of Ivan Toney were all cases in which players were caught betting, is that correct Steve?
Steve Menary 15:47
Yeahm, they were caught betting and you know I don't know the full the details of those things I'm sure that they're still being investigated in some cases yeah they're better than the same things there if you're a Premier League player you can't bet on the championship that's the rules as they stand, you know. I would argue it's maybe a little absurd if you're playing in the eighth division you can't bet in the World Cup final.
Guy Burton 16:09
Can I come back, Steve, because you were talking a little bit about the distinction between legal and illegal grey area betting as well. I mean, beyond just the ability of these firms to be able to get a license and then operate somewhere else.
Guy Burton 16:23
I mean, what are the other associated problems with that?
Steve Menary 16:28
Well, I mean, so these illegal companies, because of their licenses on the whole, don't include a requirement to report suspicious betting, right? So if you're looking to fix a game, what you're not going to do is place a bet with a regulated licensed company in this country, unless you're a really thick match fixer.
Steve Menary 16:48
What you're going to do is you're going to get your VPN out and you've got to open loads of accounts using, you know, go and take photos of people's IDs, you know, use the IDs to open loads of accounts all over the country and then place loads of small bets on these illegal betting companies.
Steve Menary 17:04
And these illegal betting exchanges, there's so much money going through these exchanges, a lot of it is tied up with money laundering. And, you know, that's where all the illegal, the match fixing takes place.
Steve Menary 17:19
So people might see some odds movements on these websites and then might be stupid and might bet with a regulated company. Pretty dumb, really. So that's the way, that's the problem that they create because they just don't cooperate with law enforcement and they don't cooperate with law enforcement because in some cases they're tied up with organised crime themselves.
Guy Burton 17:41
Yeah, I think some of your work looked at the human cost as well of some of these firms in terms of human trafficking.
Steve Menary 17:50
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, they're tied up in these, you know, in these slave encampments in parts of Southeast Asia, Cambodia and places like that, and people are trapped in there. And, you know, they're just there and they're, you know, they're working for the illegal betting companies, often tied up with scams, [inaudible] and things like that.
Steve Menary 18:06
You know, so yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's the dreadful human cost. It's not really publicized enough. And, you know, maybe in the same way, you know, you buy a packet of cigarettes and you're seeing some dreadful lung disease, perhaps maybe that they should, I'm not saying that the regulated companies are tied up with that.
Steve Menary 18:23
That's not the case at all. But, you know, the illegal ones definitely are.
Francesco Belcastro 18:27
I was going to say we're definitely seeing a change of model from a sort of betting center on perhaps on the high street and the betting shop to into sort of a online legal and illegal dimension is much, much harder to to control in many ways for for authorities, would you say?
Steve Menary 18:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steve Menary 18:46
I mean, I was looking at one website the other day that's got a Curacao license, and you can access in the UK without a VPN. I'm thinking should I report it to the Gambling Commission? I suspect I'll do absolutely nothing.
Steve Menary 19:01
But, you know, it's there. It says we've got a Curacao license where you shouldn't be able to access that website from this country. And it's quite a well -known brand. Yeah. But there's, anyway, sorry.
Guy Burton 19:13
No, no, no, sure. I mean, the thing is, there seems to be a transnational problem, right, as well. I mean, to what extent is there any kind of coordination or work being done, you know, at an international level to, you know, to tighten things up?
Guy Burton 19:26
I mean, if the football authorities themselves are, you know, and clubs are a little bit slack, I mean, what about, you know, sort of the, you know, sort of the, those that are, those authorities charged with overseeing and scrutinizing the gambling industry?
Guy Burton 19:40
Are some doing it better than others, for example?
Steve Menary 19:42
Well, I think some of the overseas ones, like the Maltese one, was bad. And I think that's improving, to be fair to them. You know, that's a lot better than it was. I'm talking about the places that offer these offshore licenses now.
Steve Menary 19:54
[Inaudible] is generally a bit better as well. The Philippines and Curacao are particularly bad and Curacao has gone on for a long time and they're talking about reforming it and it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
Steve Menary 20:07
And so and because you're trying to- you know, if you're in one country, you can look at this and say, well, actually, this is really bad, but you're trying to tell another country what to do. And that's, you know, that's quite difficult, isn't it really?
Steve Menary 20:17
So I think that's the problem. But certainly within Great Britain, the problem here is what's known as the "white labels". So it's a sort of quirk of gambling regulation that the Isle of Man can issue licenses to companies that then issue licenses themselves.
Steve Menary 20:34
So it's a sort of full sub -licensing in a way. So a lot of the clubs you see on Premier League football shirts, a lot of the betting companies, they all have what's called a white label license. So the Gambling Commission will say to this company, TGP Europe would be a prime example, they're one of the biggest ones that do this.
Steve Menary 20:51
Here's your license. This allows you to issue licenses to other companies. These companies can't take bets in our country, so therefore they've got to be geoblocked, but they can sell advertising. Well, these companies, the people they're trying to take bets from, or off bets to, are in the Far East, where there's a massive appetite for football.
Steve Menary 21:12
So actually, no one can earn or any of these places, they're not really trying to take any bets here, but they're taking lots and lots of bets in the Far East. In particular, they're taking bets in places like China where betting is illegal.
Steve Menary 21:24
So therefore those companies must be illegal because they're offering betting in places where they're betting. So therefore, by that simple sort of definition that they are really illegal, and so our country is allowing this white label system to carry on, and there's been a gambling review.
Steve Menary 21:38
There's actually no mention of this whatsoever, absolutely none whatsoever. So clearly they seem happy to let it go on, you know? And so that's something our country could do. We could close down the white label system, but, you know, at the moment, we don't seem to be doing that.
Steve Menary 21:54
And obviously there's going to be a general election later on this year, isn't there? You know, too political, it's likely to be a change of government, I think really in some sort. So there's no chance that anything happened to the white label system for some time, because even when the government changes, they're going to have a lot of there's a lot of issues in Britain at the moment.
Steve Menary 22:11
Will that be top of the pile? Probably not. So these companies know that they've got a good few years yet, they can carry on doing this. And they've changed it from the front of the shirt to the sleeve.
Steve Menary 22:21
Still, you know, I don't see how that's such a big difference, really.
Francesco Belcastro 22:27
Now you mentioned the government and the government has announced as you said that there would be sort of looking into the gambling industry and I think it's not the first time that this sort of comes into public debate and then sometimes it sort of fades off.
Francesco Belcastro 22:40
You said that you know you outline these area of white labels are called that would be an important area. Where are we with the sort of rest of the conversation? Do we know whether it's the government looking into other areas?
Francesco Belcastro 22:55
You said there is a general election so things might change but where are we with that sort of British government point of view?
Steve Menary 23:03
WSell, there's been a gambling review and they produced the White Paper, as I say, the white labels haven't been mentioned in that. And so it's just about, you know, will that get, will any of the changes be ratified before the election?
Steve Menary 23:13
I'm not sure. I'm not a political journalist. I don't answer to that. But they're trying to make some change. They're trying to, the Gambling Act, as it was, was brought in, I think that was in the Blair government, I think I'm right on saying, and it was brought in before, you know, the explosion in internet betting.
Steve Menary 23:34
And in particular, what I mentioned earlier, in-play betting, so you're betting on yellow cards and things like that. So the whole system has changed. So that regulation isn't really, you know, designed to cope with the way the world is now.
Steve Menary 23:46
And that happens, you know, in all sorts of different sectors, I think, really, but particularly, you know, internet's changed so many parts of our lives. And so they're trying to bring it up to date with that, really, that's their thing.
Steve Menary 23:56
But they seem to have missed it. But for reasons that they won't explain them, and we've put in dozens of the government myself, and the guys I work with, Philippe Auclair, Andy Brown, Jack Kerr, and Sami Kunti, the five of us all worked together.
Steve Menary 24:12
We've put in loads of freedom of information inquiries to the Gambling Commission on no response. You know, the responses are absolutely laughable where there is responses, you know.
Guy Burton 24:21
I mean, I was reading the Department for Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee's report on the gambling review and it was striking to me that the MPs sitting on that were talking very much, I mean, when it came to football, they were very much emphasizing the need for money, the need for sponsorship, yes, the issue of gambling vis -à -vis young people and sort of trying to limit that, but in terms of some of the stuff that you guys have been working on, you know, the material, the content that you've been working on and putting out, I don't, I see a real separation, real disconnect between, you know, the problems that you've been flagging up in your work versus what the MPs are talking about.
Steve Menary 25:08
Yeah, it's very, very hard to make any kind of connection with the MPs on this at all, you know, and to see if they, you know, are they interested in this? Have they read it? You know, don't know. We've had no contact with them at all.
Steve Menary 25:20
We'd be quite happy to speak to them about that, and any of us would.
Guy Burton 25:24
Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about more about the work that you've been doing then? I mean, because you flagged up that you've been working with Philippe Auclair and others. This particular project that you're involved in.
Steve Menary 25:35
So it started out- so the first one we did the one that we won the award for we got a grant for that because a lot of investigative journalism these days. It's, it's quite hard to do you know the more the model of journalism doesn't really pay for that sort of thing. We're mostly freelancers so we managed to get a grant for the first one. And the first one we were looking at the supply of data in the whole in the betting chain. And so that's kind of kind of grew out of that really because in order to offer in-play betting on a game, so events during the match rather than full -time halftime bet, you need live data and the companies that supply this live data, they also work as "integrity" part- partners.
Steve Menary 26:10
I can't do inverted commas on, on, you know vocally, but anyway, that's so they're partners with the football authorities. So all the football authorities know that these data companies They're actually selling data to illegal betting companies.
Steve Menary 26:24
They know this, but they choose not to... You know, they just look the other way. It's like the three monkeys, you know, see no evil, hear no evil... And so we did a piece all about that and the first one that we did, we catfished the data companies.
Steve Menary 26:37
So you set up an illegal betting company and Well, we set up a website and various other things to make it look like we're a legal betting company. And we went out and we asked them would you sell us data?
Steve Menary 26:48
We haven't got a license. They fell over themselves, you know, to sell us sell us data.And it was, it was quite comical because there's there was four of us at the time rather than five that there is now, and the head of our betting company was that was our fictional betting company was an Asian lady.
Steve Menary 27:06
Then we realized we were like four Caucasian white blokes! It all became a bit complicated! But we did that and they fell over themselves. And then we subsequently got other grants since then and we've looked at the supply of data from a really low -level football. We looked in in Belgium, Poland, Austria, Czech Republic and England as well. And you know, we did the the Trident leagues, which are the Southern, Northern and Isthmian Leagues together. We went and spoke to them because as you know, that data is free. Because that what's one of the things that happened with this is the data- that the clubs and the leagues now r.ealizes value in their data.
Steve Menary 27:42
So they're doing selling data to data companies or agreeing often exclusive deals. And that sign that- that precludes other companies collecting data. And if they turn up, they can be sued and there's been an example of that recently. So therefore the data companies are looking for free data anywhere.
Steve Menary 28:00
They can turn up and collect data from; friendly matches, low league matches. I found a preseason -friendly involving clubs from the 10th league in this country that was live on betting markets, right? So so so we went around and we and we did some some pieces looking at that. And when we spoke to the Trident League clubs, they were amazed- I was really impressed with the way they responded to it really because they kind of engaged with us instead of kind of, oh betting, no we don't want to talk to you.
Steve Menary 28:26
They kind of sat down with us. They went out and surveyed their members and there's a lot of, you know, huge amount of clubs across those three competitions. They do not want data scouts at those games largely. They don't want their games on betting markets.
Steve Menary 28:41
The FA know this but the FA are working with the companies that are selling the data so therefore they do nothing about it. The FA completely refused to engage with us. So that's the one that we did and we you know, we are still kind of looking at those particular areas ourselves and you know in different ways.
Francesco Belcastro 28:57
Now, I think a lot of listeners might feel a bit pessimistic after this conversation. It's an important one, but also, obviously, as a football fan, as someone who sort of thinks about society, it's concerning.
Francesco Belcastro 29:12
So I was wondering whether you could share with us whether there are any sort of noteworthy initiatives from a cultural point of view that sort of looked at either promoting a healthier betting culture or just sort of have tried to make an impact on this problem and how successful they've been.
Steve Menary 29:37
There's a couple of good campaigns out there trying to take betting adverts out of football. I mean, Luton, as I understand it, the only Premier League football club that won't take betting adverts, which is obviously quite admirable from them.
Steve Menary 29:48
But I'm not anti -betting in any way. You know, it's been going on for thousands of years. We're not going to get rid of betting, are we? And it would be a silly, silly ambition to think that. But I think the younger generation, I think, is the big problem.
Steve Menary 30:01
And that's where I think you want to try and change it, is that this whole idea that actually watching sport and betting go hand in hand, I think that's really unhealthy. There's nothing wrong with having a bet, but it doesn't mean if you're watching a game, you have to have one.
Steve Menary 30:13
And that's what's being sold by all the betting companies, you know, that's what they want. And they want people to watch it and think, OK, and obviously that's part of the advertising, isn't it? Someone's selling a soft drink, you're watching the game, you think I'm going to go and buy that soft drink or you're going to buy those car tires or something.
Steve Menary 30:28
You know, that's how advertising works. And I'm not anti -advertising either, because football needs that. But certainly the whole of the younger generation thing and we said, oh, you know, you mustn't bet if you're too young.
Steve Menary 30:39
Well, there's been multiple examples of people betting, you know, when they're younger than they should be, you know, so many. And so I think that's what needs to change in the whole relationship with betting needs to change, I think.
Francesco Belcastro 30:52
You mentioned that it's quite, I think about some of the sort of most popular advertisements. It's a clear attempt to sort of bring together whatever is football experience with betting. It's almost suggesting people that, you know, you cannot watch football if you're not betting.
Francesco Belcastro 31:09
It's exactly what you said. And it's exactly the message that's passing. And it's unfortunately seems to be a quite powerful one, given the resources are thrown also in this direction.
Guy Burton 31:21
But what's striking to me, it just shows how much things have changed, because the idea of in-game betting is just something that I can't... It's so different to me, because the only kind of betting I ever knew as a young person was the result of a game.
Guy Burton 31:38
And what you're talking about, Steve, it's exploded in terms of anything that you can do during the game as well, as well as to the level at which you can bet. Steve, this has been fascinating, really, really informative to us.
Guy Burton 31:51
Is there anything else that you're working on at the moment? You alluded to the project that you're currently working on. I mean, can you tell us a little bit about what else you're working on at the moment in this particular area?
Steve Menary 32:05
Uh, on a personal level, I spend quite a lot of time researching multi -club ownership. There's a little element of betting in that. So I'm quite interested in that, looking at the links between clubs. And I've just written a piece for Play the Game about that. And you know there's a huge amount of clubs out there that are kind of connected and for different reasons really that's kind of blown up so that that's an area I'm sort of personally looking at that I find you know quite interesting to do stuff on that yet
Guy Burton 32:30
And what we'll try and do as well for the listeners, we will include links to some of Steve's, Steve and his colleagues work in play of the game, sort of the website. Exactly. I know that a lot of a lot of Steve's work is in the Josimar magazine as well.
Guy Burton 32:47
So we will put some links to that in the show notes as well. But thanks Steve for taking the time to talk to us. I'm sure we'll probably try and come, you know, get you to come back when you've done more on this work and can tell us more about what you've uncovered.
Steve Menary 33:00
Absolutely. Yeah, no problem at all.
Francesco Belcastro 33:02
Thank you very much, Steve. Thanks for talking to us.
Guy Burton 33:05
And before we go, Francesco, the usual kind of things that we have to do, isn't there? So what do we have to tell the listeners?
Francesco Belcastro 33:12
Well, we have to remind the listeners to like us, share, rate, and whatever they're app they're getting the podcast from, allows them to do. And talk to their friends and relatives about the podcast and help us promote it.
Francesco Belcastro 33:30
Because we have a bet that you're going to buy Aldershot Town by the end of the year! So this is our, this is our, this is the bet that the podcast has!
Guy Burton 33:40
I mean, that's going to require a serious amount of money being won, so that's not going to happen.
Francesco Belcastro 33:46
So that's one, that's one.
Francesco Belcastro 33:48
And then the other one, it's that we need listeners' help in terms of thinking about the next episodes. We've got a few in mind that we are working on. You in particular are tireless in your search for topics and guests, and I'm grateful for that.
Francesco Belcastro 34:05
But we still need suggestions from listeners. So if you've got any idea on either topics or speakers, please get in touch. We can be reached- FootPol can be reached on Twitter, X, Facebook, Instagram. Are we anywhere else?
Francesco Belcastro 34:26
Yeah, Blue Sky, if anyone has Blue Sky. And then not the individual.
Guy Burton 34:31
at LinkedIn as well.
Francesco Belcastro 34:33
And as individually linked in, um, so we are, we're happy to get any feedback, advices we were doing right, we were doing wrong, how we can improve the show. We are, we're keen to hear. And then the last thing it's, you can tell us what the next episode is Guy.
Guy Burton 34:47
Oh, it's my turn? Okay, fine. So next week, we're going to be talking about mental health and football. We're going to be talking to the writer, Johnny Lowery, who's written a book about the subject called Match Fit, which came out towards the end of last year.
Guy Burton 35:00
And I think, yeah, it's going to be a good one. What do you think?
Francesco Belcastro 35:04
Yeah i'm looking forward to that one.
Guy Burton 35:05
Great.
Francesco Belcastro 35:06
All right well thank you Guy, thank you Steve for your time and we'll be back next Monday- next Monday morning.
Guy Burton 35:15
Yeah. Thanks, thanks again Steve.
Steve Menary 35:18
No problem at all. Thanks guys.
Guy Burton 35:19
Right, take care, okay, bye.