Sacred Grounds: People's Football in India ft. Sandeep Menon

This week's FootPol Podcast episode explores Indian football as a political and social phenomenon rather than simply a sport. Joining co-hosts Guy Burton and Francesco Belcastro in conversation is Sandeep Menon, author of Sacred Grounds: A Journey Through People’s Football in India. It traces how the game is embedded in India’s uneven political geography—from the northeastern states, where football intersects with histories of marginalisation and identity, to traditional centres like West Bengal and Goa. The discussion makes clear that, while football lacks the national political leverage of cricket, it plays a far more immediate role at the local level, where it reflects and shapes relationships between communities, regions and the state.

At the grassroots, football operates as a political ecosystem: local tournaments are tied to patronage networks, clubs and players become vehicles for influence and football spaces double as sites of civic and political life. These dynamics also reshape what “success” means—less about national leagues and more about community status, economic mobility and access to opportunity. At the same time, weak governance and institutional neglect continue to limit the sport’s development, particularly in the women’s game. The episode offers a concise but revealing account of how football in India functions where it matters most—locally, politically and socially rather than on the global stage.

In addition to Sacred Grounds, Sandeep is also the author of Out of the Blue: Bengaluru FC’s 10-Year Odyssey. 

Transcript

Guy Burton 0:09

Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the football podcast. I'm going to go to host Guy Burton and I'm joined by my other co-host Francesco Bel Castro. Francesco, how are you doing today?

Francesco Belcastro 0:17

I'm right, Guy. How are you?

Guy Burton 0:19

Yeah, not too bad, not too bad. I'm looking forward to this topic. Do you know why?

Francesco Belcastro 0:23

Because you're very fond of this country that we're talking about as a country in general, not football-wise, or I don't know. Are you a big uh fan of the football in this particular country? What is the reason?

Guy Burton 0:35

I mean, I like it when we do uh podcasts and episodes about uh countries that are not sort of necessarily quote in the core of of football, because you know this we we talk a lot about Europe and South America, but uh I think you know what one of the values and the virtues that we do of this podcast is trying to bring football from elsewhere in the world, right? So um yeah, for those who are well, obviously you've you've probably already seen the title, we're talking about India and football in India today. Yeah, we got an excellent guest. I'm incredibly happy to have him. Yeah, absolutely. We're joined by uh Sandeep Menon from who's caught who's coming calling us from uh Bengaluru. How are you doing, Sandeep?

Sandeep Menon 1:12

I'm good, how are you? Uh thanks for inviting me, long time listener of the podcast as well. So greatly appreciated.

Guy Burton 1:18

Thank you very much. Czech is in the post as ever. So I appreciate it. Um so before we start talking uh uh to Sandeep, I just give the listeners a bit of a bio um regarding our guest. So Sandeep Menon is a journalist, he's an author and also an educator. Um he was an automobile engineer by training, but swapped machines for words to tell stories about sport and especially football. He spent over a decade as a correspondent for the Deccan Herald, Times of India, and Deccan Chronicle, writing on sport, culture, gender, music, and uh movies. He has a podcast which is called Injury Time, which we will try and link to on the show notes, and which covers football in the country. He teaches narrative writing and journalism at several institutes and has published two books Out of the Blue, Bengaluru's FT's 10-year odyssey, and the book we're going to be talking about today, which is Sacred Grounds, A Journey Through People to Football in India. Both of those books were published last year in 2025. So, Sandy, thank you for coming and joining us uh on the podcast and talking to us about this book. Can I just start by uh uh talking a little bit about that book itself? So for those for listeners who get who want the opportunity, again, we will also link to the book. Um, the book takes us on a journey around India, and we noticed that there does seem to be a slant in some of the places that you went to. I noticed, for example, when I was reading it, that five out of the ten chapters are about states that are in the far east of the country and which include a bit more of a detached relationship with the rest of India. So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the geography of football in India and give us a quick tour of the football in the country and why those particular states.

Sandeep Menon 2:55

Yes, so uh football is probably one of the most popular sports. I mean, cricket is there, you know, it's one, two, and three. Uh, football is uh after that, but it is uh we follow a lot of you know English football and uh European football, and we lava Copa Americas and all that kind of stuff. Uh, Indian football, which specifically relating to the sport in India, has always been more popular in certain parts of the country. So historically, we have seen this sort of bend in a lot of sports in India. Like the wrestlers mostly come from this one part in Haryana, which is a state up north. Uh, you have Punjab who plays a lot of sport, uh, a lot of sprinters come from the south, uh, a lot of throwers, and you know, that kind of explosive sport comes from the north. So there has generally been always this kind of uh uh pockets in the country where one sport is dominant over the other. So it's similar in football as well. As you mentioned, uh, beyond the general interest, uh Punjab and Delhi up north were huge bastions. There was Kashmir uh back in the day as well. Uh Maharasha and Goa, somewhere on the center and the western side. This is another uh two states who produce a lot of players. In the south, there was, I think you can argue that all the states in the south are very all four or five, are very good at uh producing footballers very historically. And uh Bengal, as we know, Kolkata is called the Mecca of uh Indian football. So that's the part where a lot of research has happened. The northeast that you mentioned, this uh cluster sate, they used to be called Seven Sisters, which is no longer the case because we have added one more. Uh it's always been a part of the country that has been politically and culturally different. So uh it was they when British also called it the tribes when they first you know sort of explored those regions, uh, they couldn't figure out where to put them in the class system that they had, you know, sort of invented this or na system and the caste hierarchy and all that, because there was a different sort of uh culture over there. So uh over the course of their time, because they are also uh most Southeast Asian, like mongoloid features, as they say. Uh so all this has led to, first of all, the internal racism within the country is there, it's not as apparent as it used to be, but it's always been sort of that uh I think racism is a harsh word, othering, let's say. That has always happened. Uh and uh when when you go and speak to people in the Northeast states, they often talk about uh India as a you know representation that I went to India. So the older gentleman at least. Uh the younger generation doesn't feel that because we have evolved and changed, but uh on and off we hear some news about some really horrible things happening due to the racist differences. Uh but uh with the football bit, of course, uh a lot of it has to go with the fact that you know British and missionary work and uh garrisons, etc., over in these parts of the country where football has really, really taken uh roots. And rather ironically or not ironically, I would say one of the great things about football is how uh for years where this uh northeast frontier was as it was called back in the day when India was you know uh independent and they just sort of kept it as a buffer zone between the neighbors. Uh so there's always been that feeling of alienation among them. The Misos, the Nagas, Mizoram, and the Nagaland two states. They've had uh you know independence and requests and you know, uh sort of insurgency and all these kinds of things in that part. So there was always a slightly exotic sort of feel towards that region and maybe not completely part of the mainland. And sport has been a great sort of a bridge to bring them into uh our understanding. So when ISOL, uh, which is the capital of Bizarre, the club from there, Aizol uh won the National League, I think in 2016, 2016, 17. I'm not exactly sure now. Uh there was an article that was written where they mocked the fact that everybody in the mainland didn't call it Aizol, but Ise Wall, because we don't even know how it is pronounced. So uh that way, because of this club and then players coming and representing our national team in the last since the 1990s from this region, uh there's been a much more sort of incorporation of those regions into the into the country. So it's a little complicated to explain because of all the internal politics, plus the tribal politics in those regions as well. So uh let's say for Meghalaya has three major tribes, uh they occupy different uh parts of the state. Nagaland has, I think, 16 or 17 who don't speak the same language, also, so they speak a lingua franca called Nagamis. Uh right now in Manipur, there is uh tribal uh you know fight going on between the cookies and the Maites. Uh there was another Tankul Nagas, and uh I think cookies had a in 1990s a different clash. So this kind of region has always had these complicated history, and then you add uh our racist and othering sort of history within the country as well. So yeah, it's a cornucopia problems.

Guy Burton 8:10

That that's fascinating. That really helps me understand a bit more because you know I was struck when I was reading it about how these states you know seem to be a little bit distant from sort of I guess the metropole. And uh and so maybe that and that sort of that that sense of football seems to sort of be a sort of a uh a unifying uh for influence, as it were, or sort of at least sort of more of an in providing a sort of means of integration. Um Francesco, do you want to to go on?

Francesco Belcastro 8:39

Yeah, definitely. Um the book contains quite a lot of references or or is quite a focus on this relationship between politics and football. Not only would you describe in terms of the sort of diversity of the country and the relationship between core and periphery, so to speak, but also in terms of the use done by um different actors um of football for political reasons. I mean, uh the example that comes to mind that you make is the one of the Portuguese in Goa, um and how they played a prominent role in football clubs and competitions. Um, to what extent would you say that these political use of football, but in the case of the Portuguese, but more in general, and maybe more recent history of the country was successful. Is is football been a successful political tool in India, would you say?

Sandeep Menon 9:23

So at the national level, I would say no, not as much. Uh, because at the national level we have cricket. Uh, I'm sure if you're following what has happened in the World Cup, just uh, you know, the Asia Cup before, the World Cup now. Uh, we have always had this in the last say 10 years or so, politicization of cricket. Um, and because we are such a superpower and because we are able to win often, it becomes a way for promoting sporting nationalism. It's a perfect sport in that sense, right? Um, whereas in football, India is not a powerhouse. We didn't qualify for the Asia Cup. That is uh forthcoming. So that means we will not be playing at least one round, right? So eight years, uh, we will not be playing in the continental level. We don't win many games as such, other than our immediate neighbors. Even there, uh, Bangladesh has started doing better. Uh, we Vietnam is doing really well, and so all these uh problems doesn't give so football does not become a big uh sort of uh what do you call a symbol for sporting nationalism. So uh we can use other sports like cricket and badminton, and we have Neera Chopra who's doing really well in athletics, and you know, a few others who are coming up on the ranks. We have uh good chess players. Uh chess, especially is interesting because it's uh you know started from Tamil Nadu. That's where its origins goes back to, so it becomes a very sort of our game. So uh yeah, so football doesn't feature at that level, but at the local level for sure, because the regions where football is for most popular, uh it is easy to find purchase using that sport. So uh local politicians can sort of get a leg up and move forward. Uh, like for example, you see uh Mizoram, you can draw a direct correlation with put people in football getting into the top levels of the government. Uh, their sports minister used to be the um the secretary of the Mizoram Football Association, uh, Mr. Teteal Tete Hamar. Uh the MLA from Natial is Jayel Alpeklua, who was a striker for the national team uh just a few years ago. So that way, those regions it works. The chief minister in Bengal, for example, Bengal has three big teams Mohan Bhagan, East Bengal, and uh uh Mahomadan Sporting. So Mohan Bhagan historically were from the Gauti section of the people who were indigenous to Bengal, the Hindus in in uh Calcutta. And East Bengal fans came when the migration happened from you know Bangladesh. So they had that kind of rivalry, Gauti Bengal rivalry we call it. It goes everywhere. So when Mohan Bhagan wins, the price of prawns go up because uh that's what their fans eat. And when East Bengal wins, uh there's a freshwater fish called Hilsa, and the price of that goes up. So from a social and cultural level, also it has a huge impact. Uh historically, the Congress was really Congress is a major party. Uh, they were related more closely to uh Mohan Bhagan, whereas uh the Communist Party was more toward East Bengal. But the current chief minister, we can see that she is uh supported all three clubs. So it's become a little a way for them to find purchase, you know, vote banks and so on. Uh also the ethnic divide between these two sections of Gauti Bangal is sort of going away now because they are marrying in between and the partition and all it's like 50 years plus. So it changes. In Kerala as well, you see this uh where I personally witnessed it's these local games on the local grounds, they are often supported by uh, you know, the local politician or the ward member, and you know, these people who will first get you permission to play in these places, then help you find the sponsors, etc., to make it uh go around. And it also becomes a very interesting way to uh sort of indoctrinate youngsters. And I don't use indoctrinate as in a bad way, because when I used to walk towards my ground, there was you know posters with drawings of Cheguera, uh, the Argentina flag and Brazil flag and England flag and all that. And you also have the hammer and sickle of the communists and uh you know the Congress's uh hand. So you have all these things on the walls, and then you go there and at halftime or just before when you're getting ready, most of the conversation is about what's happening in the, you know, in our political sector and so on and so forth. So we sort of become incorporated into it. And a lot of the places, these grounds also double up as like a place where so uh the religious events happen, the community events happen, the political rallies are held and you know, talks, etc. So we are because you're so ingrained into that one ground, we sort of have this sort of uh how do you say it sort of seeps into your life, politics and all these things seeps into football. So while at the national level you have better tools to promote nationalism or uh to further your political career, at a lower level, this definitely helps. Like even and India has always had this uh connection between politics and sports because uh, unlike in the Western countries, our you know, sports minister and all these people or people sitting on the top of a lot of these uh sporting associations often come from the political island. So uh this is not particularly new or different, but I wouldn't say football has had a uh sort of great success at a national or international level.

Francesco Belcastro 14:53

There's a follow-up question on these, if I may, because if I mean one thing that emerges from your book is that sometimes in terms of interest and and kind of involvement of people, regional tournaments or or local tournaments, I mean, even set at sevens level, um have have had more popularity and have more of an impact. Is that a consequence of the kind of dynamics that you described so far? Is that why sometimes people look more at this kind of different competitions, which I assume are not under the um authority of the Indian Football Federation, right? They're kind of separate. Is that is that a fair assessment to say they are more popular? And what's the political dimension they're at play?

Sandeep Menon 15:33

So this is uh a little interesting because, as you said, uh a lot of these local tournaments, which is what I've covered in the book, and as opposed to the national level tournaments and so on, the leagues and all that. These are very popular because it provides a couple of things. Earlier, back in the before mid-90s, the football tournaments, um, the league didn't have a national league. We had leagues in different states, and then we had tournaments. So uh the clubs would play the local, you know, their state league, and then they'll travel. It's like a caravan system. So in the winter, you had two tournaments in Delhi, and then you come down to Kerala, you have eight tournaments in Kerala. There is Rovers Cup in uh uh Maharashtra, Bombay, and there is uh Stafford Salads Cup in Bangalore, Sikkim Gore Governor's Cup. So you go, it was like a traveling circus in some sense. So what it allowed is for all the people to uh have an opportunity to see the best, best teams. So, for example, now, since it's a national league, Kerala has one team in the top division and another team in the second division. So, and they have one place in Kochi and one place in Kodi Kode, which is uh two districts, and the distance between Kochi and Kodi Code is like five hours. So we don't have opportunity to watch the top division as much as before. It's a similar thing uh all across the country where there is a lot of chance to you know uh watch these local tournaments because it's easily accessible. Money is not much, most of the local tournaments have local representation as well. So you know someone who's playing, or you know someone who knows someone who's playing. So in that way, it becomes part of you. And it also gives you that uh the local area pride, right? So um, like in Mizoram, for example, it's intervillage tournaments, so village plays against each other. Uh, there is another tournament uh which is that Young Mizo Association, which is an NGO. They have a ward-based tournament, that is their World Cup. So uh there is a place called Lengpui, which is an hour away from Aizol, which is the capital of uh Mizora. There is a player there called Romin Tanga, who was a great left-footed player, uh midfielder, very technically gifted, but didn't end up being a top player because he studied and at 25 he start got an injury and didn't really continue. But his brother, younger brother, went on to play top division and even play for the national team, Chante. So, but if you go to Leng Pui and talk to them about their greatest player, everybody will say it is Romin Tanga because he led that team, their uh village to the YMA title. For them, that is more important than anything else. Like Leng Pui is now famous because the airport is there. But before that, there you know it was all about uh Romin Tanga being the guy who got them, you know, that local fame. So all across you'll see these kind of similar stories uh of you know Chester Paul Lindo in Makarwat district or uh you know some of them you may not have heard of them, you know, at the top division level. Uh Toboy is a guy from um from the hills in Manipur, you know, so on and so forth. So it becomes part of uh our local pride and representation. So it does uh really, really go into the actual root of the fan base.

Francesco Belcastro 18:53

And this can I ask you one thing, Sandeep? Sorry, this kind of local pride that you described often reflects probably like like even smaller community, right? I don't know, like uh kind of rural versus urban or I don't know, whatever different communities. So it's it kind of it it has a sort of represent representative function, if that if if that makes sense. Is that correct?

Sandeep Menon 19:17

Yes, oftentimes it is that most of these tournaments do happen in the more uh uh suburban or rural side, uh not so much in the cities, places, but there are games in the city also. Uh and also there is like, for example, uh Nagaland recently had an interdistrict tournament, uh, which was watched by mil like lakhs of people, and uh 30,000 came to the stadium. So the district that won uh was a district called Mond district, which is at the far end, I think uh Burma border, a little uh underdeveloped, not so much importance is given from the you know center to towards that part of the world. So when they won this tournament, the inter-district tournament, and they're in Nagaland also has a dominant tribe in most of the districts. So the cognac tribes are where you know uh Mon district is mostly filled with cognac tribes. So they gave a vacation for the whole, you know, or whole district in celebration because for them this was part of you know getting more eyeballs onto their uh district and saying that look, we we can do great things, help us. So I spoke to a few people there, they were so happy with it. Uh in the stadium, they were singing a cognac song, a love song, uh, which is a little bit of a sad and painful uh and lovely lyrics in that. So it's sort of waiting and waiting for success. That kind of uh emotion was sort of uh what what came out with the song, so they really vibed with the whole thing. So that showed how much you know they care. And uh if you go to one other thing in Mizoram, also they were playing one tournament. The state team was playing in a tournament, and uh there was a WhatsApp poll that said, Do you want the state team to get knocked out so that the village team can get the best players back? And they voted overwhelmingly yes. Uh, that they would much rather that the same team goes out of the national tournament so that they can play the village tournament. So, yeah, it it's really that kind of sort of community thing is extremely strong in uh a lot, several parts of India, I would say.

Guy Burton 21:19

But but I also say, I mean, from from what struck me as well while reading the book, and and what what I really enjoyed was actually this focus on sort of the more commute, you know, community-based and regional and local tournaments rather than sort of the national level, because it really gave me an insight into sort of how Indian football actually is played out. But the thing that also struck me as well is beyond kind of the politics and sort of community sense that we talk about, there's also an economic dimension here as well. Because I think what was striking to me in the book was how many of the almost national level players will play at this regional level. Um, because you know, much of the national game isn't other other than very much at the top, other than that, it's It's not a pro professional game, is it? So if you want to be a footballer, you do need to go where the money is. And the money happens to be at these regional and local level games, no?

Sandeep Menon 22:10

Yeah, to an extent, yes. Uh, because it comes in two ways. So the top division, as you said, the Indian Super League, you make good money. The I League, which is the second division, uh, I think now it's called Indian Football League. Uh, that league, you in some clubs you make good money. The rest of them maybe not so much. And the Indian League, there are everything below that is semi-professional at best. So there are some clubs who might be running professional shows, but a lot of them are just putting teams together and you know, that kind of different ways. So uh for a lot of these players um who are not going to get to the top level, it makes more sense to play these sort of tournaments also. So they might play uh, let's say i League 3, which is and qualification for I League 3 and the whole i League 3 itself might take six months. Uh, you have a lot of free time in between. So you end up paying these smaller tournaments, especially in the Northeast. Uh, they do play a lot of these uh busty games in Meghalaya. You could make anywhere from 15,000 rupees per game to 30,000 rupees a game. To put it into context, some of the players make 30,000 per month playing in i League or I League 2. So it makes more sense for me to just play these tournaments. Of course, I won't have the name and fame of being uh you know national level player, but I'll make more money. Uh and this is similar in a lot of other places also. Whereas in Kerala Sevens football, which is a seven-aside uh game played in uh mud grounds, that's our uh traditional sort of uh our culture um transculturalization of football is let's say uh there people often come to play even from the top division because they feel during off-season, uh, in because they feel like they have to give back to the community. It happens in Punjab as well, where they have gone on to have great success. Uh, playing these tournaments is what helped them develop. So when they come back, they'll announce themselves, you know, I'll go play one game. They'll not tell the parent club because your chance of getting injured are quite high. But uh, in secret, they would go and play as a way of getting more people to come, uh, get more uh fans come coming into the stadium, etc. So it is their way of giving back to the community. Uh now it's a little harder because of mobile phones. Yeah, uh somebody will take a photo and then send it back to you know some of their clubs or whatever, it circulates on the social media part and it's all gone. So uh I I have heard of players changing their names and playing for their uh teams. Uh I don't know if there have been too many of such instances, but yeah, it it makes a lot of uh impact on their lives and a lot of them want to give back in that way also.

Guy Burton 24:47

And if I may, just to sort of you know lead on from this discussion about the economic dimension, it also prompted you to rethink what success actually means in the book as well. Because I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that.

Sandeep Menon 25:00

Yes, because because as a journalist, right, what we we have uh winners and first loser, then that's the way uh journalism works, at least at the top level. And it makes sense at that highest level, right? You are you want to be an Olympic champion or you want to be on the Olympic podium. Uh but when you look at sporting success, as I I did when I was starting to do more and more research, um and you see the kind of places where players come from, uh, it's not from well-loved places and they're struggling to put food together, they work in the fields in the morning and then go train and you know, those kind of environments. Uh if you get the chance to have a free education through football or any sport for that matter, and then even if you don't end up continuing in that sport, you get that education, you get a job. And that helps you get out of you know, to the next level of uh economic step ladder. And there is also this uh part, this specifically one part in Tamil Nadu called Tutur, uh, which is a fishing village at the southern tip of the Indian peninsula. A lot of the people used to go and hunt sharks, and you know, they they lived like that and they didn't really have a lot to uh go on to because they are far from the Tamil Nadu capital of Chennai. They're actually closer to the Trivant Tirvandaram, which is uh Kerala's capital. But they never they'll never get a job in Kerala because they're not part of Kerala. So they would always go play in Kerala, but they will not be considered for the government jobs and so on. It's only once their players, few of them got a chance to go and play in Chennai and got hired into the uh railways or services or telecom industry that they realized, so you know what, we can are there is an avenue there. So one of them was telling me that 30, 40 years ago you wouldn't find a single engineer or a doctor in that village. But now there is a lot of engineers and doctors and uh MBAs because a lot of them went on football scholarship to college. A lot of them didn't continue, but they got an education. So that helped that whole village sort of come up. So it's no longer a fishing village now. There is a lot of development happening. Fishing is also part of their life, but it's no longer the sole economic driver there. So for me, now it makes sense that as long as your life and your family's life gets better through sport, I think that that's success enough.

Guy Burton 27:21

We're in we're interested to know about the women's game in India. What's very striking is, of course, when we look at it on a global scale, and particularly in Europe, that has been undergoing a significant amount of growth in the in the last number few years, the last couple of decades. And it's also you know prompted a lot of uh interest in the game, enthusiasm for the game. I'm just curious to know where we are with that in India, whether it is a national phenomenon, or whether it's maybe maybe there's areas of regions of India where it's perhaps more popular, it's more prominent, um, and maybe parts of the country where um that still um there's still maybe a negative view towards women playing the game.

Francesco Belcastro 28:00

Does it does it follow the map that you gave us, or is it kind of a different uh map, so to speak?

Sandeep Menon 28:07

It sort of follows the map from the men's, but not always, because there is Jharkhand who produces a different state that produces a fair amount of footballers, but Mizoram doesn't produce as much. Uh Meghalaya also is on the rise. Uh Manipur produces a lot of players. So it's still, you know, same similar regions and a lot of the same states, but some somewhat different. Uh as a whole, yes, there is an uptick in interest in the last, say, 10 years because of the focus and performance, et cetera, on in women's football has grown. Uh, I guess the start of the Indian Women's League was a good shot in the arm. Um, and I will say that while IWL has not been great in terms of evolution and how it's being run, etc., uh, but it's still sort of better than nothing. Uh additionally, we also had a few players in the few recent past who have gone abroad. You know, Manisa Kalyan, who's in Latin America now, and Dan Megres and so on and so forth. We have had a fair amount of Balade. We've played for Glasgow Rangers. Uh so we have had players who have gone out, and so it was somewhere in the news that things were happening. Uh, Tamil Nadu players, some of them earned jobs through their performance at the national level. And uh a bunch of the players who won the first one came from the survivors of the uh tsunami that struck uh you know in the early 2000s in that region in Kudalu side. So all these has kept women's football sort of in the news. So uh that way there is an improvement, but I still feel like all India Football Federation, the AIFF, has been very, very poor in terms of you know uh really capitalizing on the change in culture. So uh historically speaking, the women's football in the beginning was you know controlled by uh separate organization called Women's Football Federation of India. Uh they did it actually a good job because they took care of the women's game and they played a few games here and there, they played in Asia and all that stuff. They did quite well. Uh and they didn't have you know AIFF and people meddling in the women's game. This is up until they had to merge with AIFF, and then women's football really, really took a no-style. Uh, and culturally also there is this trepidation. Like I've noticed this even in swimming uh and these kind of um uh sport where uh women have to you know be physically um dominant in some sense, you know, work out with you know bars and uh pull down muscle, etc. There is a trepidation within the community that you might look mascular or macho or you don't have the feminine look. Uh there was also this thing of girls will get darker, you know, get tanned, and that's not good. So all these things exist in the ether within you know society as a whole, and football being very physical, and you know, we girls don't play that. Yeah, all these things existed, which is slowly going away now, which is a very good thing. Uh, much of that I guess has to do with the general culture in the country also changing. So uh women, I've I I don't know if you know uh some of the real bad atrocities that happen to women in general in Delhi and you know a few other places where there are some harrowing stories about uh killing and you know, uh much worse things. So this horrible things were came onto the news, and there was a huge uprising and uproar against and looking for women's protection and so on. So uh that put women and their issues in front and center. So a lot of the community started thinking about it, about their injustices that they are going through in general. And now we are reaching a point where there is a pushback. You know, when uh we talk about this, the men are now feeling victimized. We see that slowly, slowly uh in the culture. I think a few years some some stories have come from Kerala, for example, where men are starting to say, like, you it's you know, basically pushing back on this kind of narrative. It's not good, not just in Kerala, a few other states as well, but this this thing is coming slowly. In addition to that, women also started doing really well in sport. Maricom started doing well in boxing, Sarita Devi was there. Pogats is uh Sakshi Malik, you know, doing well in the Olympics and the you know, the uh quadernal tournaments, TV Sindhur, Saina Newal dominated the whole uh badminton scene. Saine Mirza in tennis is again a pioneer what she did, and culminating now with our Indian women's cricket team who's doing really, really well. Uh so all this has made parents who are of not the old generation who looked at you know sport as not the thing for women. The younger generation is thinking, oh, now we can send our younger children. Sport is an option to make money, sport is an option to uh be successful, you know, sport is an option to get better education. So everybody is now looking into that. Uh from a national team perspective, also, India's done well. Our team is in playing in the Asia Cup. They are losing. Of course, we lost really badly to Japan. Uh, but again, Japan has most of their players playing in Europe and et cetera. And we are, you know, in terms of development, far, far behind. But at least they are you know competing at that level. Our two age group teams also qualified for the Asian level. But while they are doing this, this is sort of in spite of the Federation. Because they really don't do much to help. The Indian Women's League, which should have been you know something they focused on to build up for the Asian Cup that is uh happening, they didn't do a good job. So these girls are not given the best preparation. Just before the tournament starts a few months, you add a new coach saying that, oh, we have got a coach, we're doing this. Uh, but what is that coach going to do in you know two months? And what is that, what message I is giving the Indian coach who helped them qualify and saying, okay, you know, for this tournament, you be assistant or you sit on the side. So it makes no sense. Uh and women's um team has also had bad luck and bad you know, sort of governance. So a few years ago, when the Asia Cup happened in India during the COVID bubble and all, we had a bad time of it. Bubble bursts, and people got COVID, and India didn't have an opportunity to play properly. Uh, Gokal and Kerala was playing in the continental tournament when they were there, you know, travel somewhere in Central Asia, I believe. Uh the FIFA ban happened because of internal politics and you know, interference into the All India Football Federation. So they couldn't play that tournament. So time and again, women have fallen victim to bad governance. Uh so whatever momentum we are getting from a cultural side, it's being somewhat curbed by the association's um inability to do things properly. Is it an improvement from say 15 years ago? I would say probably, yeah, but still nowhere close to what we need. Because I I I personally believe uh Indian women's team have a higher, quicker chance of qualifying for the World Cup than the men.

Guy Burton 35:14

This is actually something that we've we've we've noticed before, isn't it, Francesco? In in in previous conversations we've had about women's football. We've done episodes, um, for example, with Raphael Nicole Nicholson, who talked about how when women's football in England was it was organized independently by women and then eventually got taken over by the men's, well, the male, the male-led FA. And so on the one hand, it's been good for visibility, on the other hand, you know, they're no longer front and center, they are part of a bigger um organization and movement. And so something there is a there is a tension here at work. We've also talked about it with with uh Carrie Dunn in previous episodes. We've talked about the tension between uh football, uh women's football either being uh in in women's only football clubs or you know being associated with uh you know more established men's clubs. Maybe the being established in more men's clubs gives you visibility, but on the other hand, it doesn't put you front and center, does it?

Francesco Belcastro 36:11

Um Francesca, no your book is filled with uh characters, with players that are important and interesting, not only for their football skills, but for their impact, women and men. Um if we were to ask you to choose one that you think it's uh that interesting for the listeners to find about, who would be would you who would you use as an example?

Sandeep Menon 36:33

Oh one might be very difficult. Can I give a couple? Yes, please. Uh yes, so I from my so I was in Mizoram just uh a week ago, and uh I love that part of the country. So uh there was a player there called Shailavo Mal Sam Truanga. Uh he was called Mama. We all call him Mama because the pronunciation is a little difficult for a lot of the people. So he was the first player from Mizoram to sort of uh make it into the mainstream. So uh Mama then becomes personally responsible for Mizoram's sort of turn into football. So 2% of the population in Mizoram makes money through football. That's something that I was told by one of the people who worked there. So that's 2% is a lot, uh, especially considering it's not a very populated state. So a lot of people make money through football. So it became huge because of Mama. So he got through to uh uh Tata Football Academy through playing this school tournament, national school tournament. And uh, because then he got signed by the you know Kolkata Giants, and the money that's so the story is that first time he got the check for you know, salary check, he didn't know what to do with the check. So he kept it in the Bible, and somebody else had to go and say, you know, go put it in the bank. So he was that that level of, you know, that's where he came from. And he what he's done since is that we have so many players coming from that region. And it's very interesting because there was a player in the 70s called uh Kay Kolla, who was the first player from Mizoram to play for uh the national team, but he was a goalkeeper. I think he lived most of his life in uh Burma. I was father was a missionary, and when he came and settled back in Israel, he was already in his mid-30s. So he never really inspired the generation, also because politically that was a time when a lot of bombings and fights and freedom struggle was happening in Mizoram. So it probably wasn't a good time for this to happen. So in 1986, they signed peace accords, Mizoram Peace Accords. So uh since then Mama came and that has really helped. Uh, another person was Kiran Kongsai. So uh these from Manipur. Manipur is basically like a uh a valley surrounded by hills. So valley is where the Maitai clan lived, the tribe, and the surrounding hills are Stankul Nagas and Kukis, which are two other dominant tribes. There are a few others here and there as well. So Kiran Kongsai is from a Kookie community. He was the first player to play for the national team in 1991 or something like that. And his impact was huge in Manipur. So the generation of players came through. And Maite community are the ones who produce the most amount of players because in the valley they have more space to play football, more developed than the hills and so on. Uh, why I find this very important to talk about is currently there is having there is a uh sort of fight going on, very bad fight going on the last couple of years between Maites and Cookies in Manipur. So to this is a way for you to tell them look, there is one of the other tribe who's inspired you and helped. And so it seems like you know, you you you can have heroes from everywhere. And uh we can live in somewhat you know peaceful kind of a way, and as long as you pick the best from you know both worlds and so on. So it's a fascinating history that is worth remembering. Um, and one other one maybe is uh uh Hangmila Shaiza, who's the first uh woman MLA of Manipur. She's from Ukru, which is uh the land of Thankul Nagas. Her husband was the first chief minister from the hills uh in Manipur. She was uh someone who did a lot for social work and development of women in general in Manipur. So uh Manipur is a place where women are very strong in community. They have a whole market that is run only by women because historically they had a lot of skirmishes and fights. So women took charge, you know, of running the household while men, you know, had to fight war and so on. So they have a strong community, and she was really, really instrumental in developing that. And uh when the Women's Football Federation of India was formed, she became the president of that and ran it for a while. So, and to run it from a state which is so far away from the center of power as well, and Ukru also, which is far away from the center of power in Manipur, I think uh there is a lot to be discovered about her, a lot more. Uh in my book, I feel like uh women's football is not given a lot of importance when you compare it to the men's football. Uh, some of it is because the story and the timeline and the timing that I got, you know, the period that I got to write it, uh, I could only fit so much. Uh, but there are a lot of forgotten heroes in women's football uh that I have seen or heard of. Uh, maybe a different book uh another day we can talk more about it. So um India is fascinating in terms of you know the number of missed buses or forgotten heroes, and uh if things had got zigged instead of zag, the whole other thing could have happened. So um, yeah, many, many interesting such stories. Yeah.

Francesco Belcastro 41:58

Sandi, before we let you go, could you remind our listeners the title of the book, um, where they can find it, and um yeah.

Sandeep Menon 42:05

Yes, the title of the book is Sacred Garms, The Journey Through People's Football of India. It is available on Amazon as ebook, and I think it's also available as in the physical form, uh, all over. So please have a look into that. I would also suggest, since I'm here anyway, if you if you want to have an understanding about the day-to-day functioning of a club and a successful one with that, uh, please do check out Out of the Blue, uh, the book about Bangalore FC's tenure ODC, which is about uh the club from Bangalore and the kind of impact they have had on a city in the last few years. Because India's professionalism only happened, say, in the last 15 years, and uh this club was instrumental in that.

Francesco Belcastro 42:46

It's called Out of the Blue, right? Out of the blue, yeah.

Guy Burton 42:49

And we will and we will link to both of those books in the show notes as well for those who are interested in in finding out more. Sandeep, thank you for taking the time to talk to us. We really appreciate it.

Sandeep Menon 42:59

Thank you very much, Sandeep. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Guy Burton 43:03

Our pleasure. Um, but before we go, Francesco, there's something we need to tell the the listeners, don't we?

unknown 43:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Francesco Belcastro 43:08

Well, first of all, we need to thank them for um uh sticking through the podcast for over 100 episodes. Um we're really, really delighted, and it's it's been a privilege um working with you on this podcast. But also we need to do more episodes um and we need to make sure that we listen to different voices in football. Um different people, different regions of the world. Um football is for everyone, and we want this podcast to be for everyone as well. So we need people to give get in touch with us and give us advice, um topics, uh uh speakers, um ideas. We've done some excellent episodes based on what people uh have suggested. So we wanted more. And how do they get in touch with us, guy? Because it's all good telling them to get in touch with us, but if we don't give them the details, how are they gonna do that?

Guy Burton 43:57

Well, if you let me, I will tell you where they can get. Please go. So there's a number of different ways you can do that. We have um a social media presence on a number of different channels. We have a blue sky account, we have a Facebook page, we have an Instagram page. Um we also have our own personal uh LinkedIn profiles where you can reach either Francesco or myself, and we also have an email address which is footpolpodcast at gmail.com. So you can reach us through any of those, and uh we always like to hear your feedback as well as suggestions for what we should do in the future. And what else do uh we want listeners to do before they shut the podcast for today?

Francesco Belcastro 44:35

Well, they should please help us by um subscribing, liking, rating our podcast, whatever their um app or or uh platform allows them to do. Um I'm sure there's a form way of subscribing, and then they can rate it and share it, tell friends and listeners and potential listeners about it because it's uh set up for the one of podcasts. Yeah and um that will help us a lot. We're grateful to all people that have done it already. And the last thing to say is that a reminder that uh we have an episode coming up in two weeks. Yes. Uh, unless something doesn't happen, um, which it might, and in that case we might have an an extra um podcast. Instapod. Like we did yeah, an Instapod like we did a few weeks ago. They'll hear from us in a couple of weeks, two weeks' time.

Guy Burton 45:24

And uh if you can't haven't had enough of us yet, then go and check out our catalogue. Because as Francesco points out, we have done over a hundred episodes now, so there's plenty to listen to if you haven't already done so.

Francesco Belcastro 45:34

If next Monday you really miss Guy, you got an hundred episodes to to choose from. Um, so yeah, that's a lot, there's plenty, and there's every sort of topic.

Guy Burton 45:45

Yeah, okay, great. Well, it's great talking to you again, Francesco. So I will speak to you again in a couple of weeks' time. And again, Sandeep, thank you for taking the time to speak to us.

Francesco Belcastro 45:53

Thank you, Sandeep. Thank you, Guy. Thank you. Bye.