2026 World Cup Debutants: Jordan's Football Story ft. Curtis Ryan

A compelling instalment in our in-season series on World Cup debutants, in this episode co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to Middle East scholar Curtis Ryan of Appalachian State University about Jordan’s historic first-ever qualification for the FIFA World Cup. From the fierce rivalry between Al-Faisaly and Al-Wehdat—shaped by identity, history and social tensions—to the unifying force of the national team, this is a timely and insightful discussion on sport, identity and politics in the Middle East country. 

The episode also explores powerful stories from Syrian refugee camps and Jordan’s pioneering role in advancing women’s football globally, as well as the team’s World Cup prospects and the geopolitical challenges facing fans, particularly US visa restrictions.

 Curtis's chapter on identity politics in Jordan, which we referenced in the introduction, can be found here, if you would like to learn more.

Transcript

Guy Burton 0:13

Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Football Podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co-host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today?

Francesco Belcastro 0:22

I'm alright, guy. I'm super excited about today's episode. I know you are as well, as we both have a background in Middle East politics and we've worked on the Middle East. I don't not mean not specifically on this country. I've worked around, but not on this country. I think the same for you. I don't I don't know if you've worked in this particular country.

Guy Burton 0:38

Not specifically on this country, but it's one of those things, you know, it's a country that we well, do you want to talk a little bit about which country we're going to be looking at and who's going to be able to do that?

Francesco Belcastro 0:46

We can be mysterious about it, don't tell listeners. So we're we're talking listeners will know that we've done a bit of episodes on uh uh recent qualifiers to the uh uh World Cup, first time qualifiers. And we've done Cape Verde and Uzbekistan, I we're gonna be and others to come. And there is a Middle Eastern country that has qualified for the first time to the World Cup, and that's Jordan. Um so we're gonna be talking about Jordan and and to talk about Jordan with us is Curtis Ryan. Uh a lot of listeners will know of him as a Middle East scholar, but he's also uh someone who's interested in football and football and politics. So it's great to have your Curtis. Welcome on the podcast.

Curtis Ryan 1:28

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Guy Burton 1:31

Thank you for for joining us, Curtis. In fact, uh this is a we're really looking forward to this because you know we we know of Curtis's work uh on Jordan, and um just to sort of put listeners into the picture about Curtis. So Curtis Roy Ryan is based at Appalachian State University. He's been at the Department of Government and Justice Studies there since 2002. Uh his educational history is that he joined he had his received his BA in history and political science from Drury University, and he holds his MA and PhD in political science from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Professor Ryan has served as a Fulbright Scholar in the in between 1992 and 93 at the Center for Strategic Studies in the University of Jordan and was twice named a peace scholar uh at the United States Institute of Peace. Inter-Arab Alliances, Regime Security and Jordanian Foreign Policy, University of Press of Florida uh in 2009, and Jordan the and the Arab Uprisings, Regime Survival and Politics Beyond the State, which came out with Columbia University Press in 2018. But he has also written on football uh in in that country. Uh in June 2023, he contributed a chapter on football and politics in Jordan to the uh Project on Middle East Political Sciences report on politics of sport in the Middle East. We will link to that uh report as where you can also find Curtis's chapter. But Curtis was also telling us that he has written for Merit as well as the Washington Post, well, when Monkey Cage used to be at the Washington Post, including an article on um uh the uh uh looking looking at football in in the Syri in the camps uh for Syrian refugees in Jordan as well. Um you know, maybe you want to just touch a little bit about about that, uh Curtis, before we start talking about uh Jordanian football and politics more particular more specifically.

Curtis Ryan 3:37

Uh yeah, that I thought that was a really I mean it was a very difficult uh field research visit and very moving going up to the Zatari camp in particular in northern Jordan, um at uh really the height of the Syrian refugee crisis. Um so it's it's not, I mean, the camp itself at that point had, you know, as they had prepped for maybe 3,000 people, they ended up with about 80,000 um and you know, entire families. And during the day, uh it almost looked like uh kid world because a lot of the adults were under shelter somewhere and the kids were running around everywhere. Uh, but the football came to the camps um uh some in a way via FIFA, but specifically the effort was from Prince Ali of Jordan, who um was at that point the vice president of FIFA for all of Asia, and also ran an NGO called the Asia Football Development Project. And uh I'd say two things about that. Uh, one, the the effort there was to bring to extend football beyond the usual places and the usual suspects, and that meant bringing in women and girls into football, not just in Jordan, by the way, but all over Asia. So as far east as Vietnam, for example, the project has helped with. Uh, but they then really took it to heart with the Syrian refugee camp, which was let's bring it to refugees, boys and girls alike, um, started a program there where there are the football pitches aren't football pitches. There's not a single blade of grass. It's you know, rock and dirt kind of pitch. So it's it's a bit grim. Um, but it's honestly the only place in the camp where there is, you know, you could hear joy, you know, happy, happy kids. Uh uh, and they they realized with 80,000 people there have to be some footballers here. And there were. Uh, there were people who had been in the Syrian pro leagues and things like that who became the coaches and Jordanian players and coaches volunteered their time. People contributed from all over the world to get the kids uh well, in some cases they had shoes and boots, in some cases they didn't. Uh, but they nonetheless got the thing underway and had, you know, several thousand boys and girls playing in tournaments kind of non-stop. Um, not the best football you've ever seen, actually, you know, but it was that was it it was just joyous to watch that they were out there um with something to do and to organize them and to get uh the one non-depressing thing happening in the camp.

unknown 6:01

Yeah.

Guy Burton 6:01

And and that's the thing. I think, I mean, if we can now bring it to talking about Jordan, because of course those were the Syrian refugees, but it just goes to show how you know innate in a way football is in in the region as well. So maybe we could start talking a little bit about you know football in Jordan, because you're an expert on on Jordan on Jordan and its politics and society. So could you tell us a little bit, you know, maybe set the scene for for the listeners as to what is this, what is the situation, the context in which football develops in in Jordan, uh thinking about the politics there and the society, and how does that play out in terms of the domestic football scene there? I mean, in terms of which football clubs are particularly prominent, prominent and how they reflect politics and society in that country.

Curtis Ryan 6:41

Okay, yeah, it's it's by far, uh like a lot of countries in the world, football is by far the most popular sport. Um, there are certain small followings for things like basketball, and uh believe it or not, taekwondo is really popular in Jordan, but by but nothing, nothing is close to to football in terms of the level of enthusiasm. Uh so some of Jordan's clubs actually predate Jordanian independence. Um Jordan became independent of the UK. It was a British mandate uh after the Ottoman Empire. Um, so it became independent after World War II, but some of the clubs actually date themselves to the 30s. Um, the most successful club in Jordan's history is Al-Faisali, which is usually seen as a kind of East Jordanian nationalist and pro-royalist type of club, but they actually go back to the 1930s, so more than a decade before independence. They have won more titles. They're called the Blue Eagles. The Blue Eagles have won more titles than any other club in the country. And their arch rival that many people are familiar with this rivalry, because it's it's sometimes listed as in the top 50 worldwide, um, is Wahdat, which is literally the the name of the club is the name of what was originally a football, uh, a refugee camp, but then became an urban neighborhood over time, and the name of a club. So that is overwhelmingly Palestinian with an overwhelmingly Palestinian fan base, um, not just in Jordan, actually. Uh Wahdat has a pro-Palestinian and Palestinian fan base all over the West Bank and Gaza and in other places in the world. Um, so it's as the most popular sport in the kingdom, it's you know kicked over time. That rivalry has been sometimes uh really, really brutal in a really unpleasant ways. But I'd say those are two of the biggies, but at the moment, uh the reigning champion in the country has been Al Hussein from this past year. They're based in the city of Irbid in northwest Jordan. And occasionally, actually, that there's a city called Ramtha, which is on the Jordan near the Jordanian-Syrian border in the north. Uh, and they have occasionally won some titles as well. I would say those are the biggies that have tended to just dominate um the football scene. And the football scene has been around as long as Jordan has. It just now has developed to something that definitely a lot of your English listeners will be familiar with, and that is uh a several-tiered system where there's there's pro league and then there's several uh levels, you know, relegation and things like that just below that. Um but the pro league is what gets most of the attention.

Francesco Belcastro 9:06

Can I ask something on this rivalry on the Albidat um Al-Faisali? Because obviously uh people who are familiar with Jordan will know that the issue of the number of Palestinians in Jordan, uh uh what percentage of Jordanians have got Palestinian roots and and the sort of and and the politics of Palestinians in Jordan has has historically been uh quite controversial and quite delicate topic in in Jordan from the 70s onwards. And it seems to me that in a way the peace club Al-Widat has given the Palestinians a way to express their identity to the extent that sometimes in in some historical phases the the um government, the regime in Jordan wasn't particularly happy with that. Can you tell us a bit more about these? Is it is it kind of does it reflect this tension, you know, this kind of strong presence of Palestinian population, what it means for the kingdom?

Curtis Ryan 10:00

Yeah, it it does. I mean, if it certainly um lies at a kind of fault line within Jordanian politics, like sort of ethnic identity fault line, which is definitely important for some people and not for others. Um they're definitely Jordanians who there's been a lot of intermarriage over the years. So there are a lot of uh Jordanians and families and so on who find this um outdated and frustrating. Uh but so I think we probably need to draw a line between the the fan bases of the two teams, at least the local fan bases, the ones that actually show up to the stadiums, are as intense as you can possibly imagine a fan base to be. Um, so much so I would compare them to maybe Egypt's Ultras or uh Hooligans when England and the Netherlands play or something like that, like that level of let's call it enthusiasm to be polite. Um, but they are known for really abusive chants. And the chance, however, the uh, and this is why I think it's more societal, that the chants aren't aimed at the other team. The chants are aimed at the other fans and they're very personally insulting. Sometimes they kind of cross a red line of sorts where they start talking about the royal family and they get edgier and edgier and edgier. So there are things that will be allowed sometimes, they even sometimes they'll cross the line, but sometimes they'll be allowed in the stadium that wouldn't be acceptable outside the stadium. Like the same chant in a public demonstration two miles away in the same city would not, would, would be shut down. But in the stadium, they're kind of chanting, counter-chanting, you know, trying to drown each other out. Um, and you know, they're known for their, well, they're known for their cheat, the their chants and they're going after each other. Um the uh but they're also known that I guess, and I think this is true of the other examples I was comparing it to, uh kind of I would add a kind of toxic masculinity part to it, because it's a very testosterone, lots of men chanting in these types of situations. But the part that sometimes I think gets missed, I mean, because sometimes the regime has gotten so frustrated they've they've uh they forced them one year to play without fans, for example. They would play their matches, but they said no fans in the stadium. So notice their their issue wasn't the players on the pitch. There were there are no fist fights with them, and it was it was the fans getting unruly and sometimes violent with each other. Um and there's a great short story about this by a very distinguished uh elite Jordanian writer and political activist named Hisham Bustani, that is, of course, called Faisalian Wachtat, um, that is about what he's calling the the blue man and the green man, blue being the colors of Faisali, green being the traditional colors um for Wachtat. And really, it's a savage critique uh of this whole phenomenon. But there's of course a Jordanian, by the way, who loves football, who's just not having this, you know, this. And the other thing I would add to this is that in addition to the countless other Jordanian football fans who just find this, you know, the chanting of the two sides annoying. Um there are plenty of Wachtat and Faisally fans who feel that way too. They may not be at the stadium, but they they have fan bases that are not present. Um, who this is the side of the football they don't like. What they do like is the football on the pitch. Um, so it at times though, if it if it represents anything, it usually represents this fissure and ethnic identity divide in the country, which as I say is is salient for some people, but honestly not for all Jordanians. So some people are with this and some are not.

Francesco Belcastro 13:16

Can I ask another thing on this? Sorry, guy, before we move on, because I mean, obviously, like we focus on the rivalry, but uh like in a way we could we could say where that has given its story as you say it sort of emerged from a from a refugee camp, from one of the biggest refugee camps just outside of Amman. It was essentially initially youth theme, right? Kids organized for kids to play, and then it kind of grew into so it is, I mean, it's in a way it's and it became one of the dominant forces in Jordanian football. So in a way it's seen by Palestinians in Jordan and beyond as kind of a success story in in um difficult conditions. So I think there is that kind of positive aspect to it as well, isn't there?

Curtis Ryan 13:53

Oh, I think so, because it, yeah, you're right. It started with UNRWA, right? The the United Nations Relief Works Agency for Palestinian refugees. And it was not not unlike actually the project in Zatari camp to bring football to to Syrian refugee children, um, with considerable Jordanian help and assistance uh and volunteerism along the way. But in this was a more of an international effort at the same much earlier, and yes, I think it was was deeply successful, um, and hence the the support for the the squad out well outside the borders, you know, well outside the borders. Um and even aside from moments on the pitch, because they they also have matches where okay, the chants are happening, but they do not get out of hand, they're more like friendly banter chants, and sometimes it's more not friendly, but you know, sometimes when they do this, uh but but on the other hand, the other thing is, you know, they have these big fan bases well beyond either of their stadiums, you know. Um, and um they they have the support base that that that's bigger than that. And they also, as clubs, you know, uh putting the fans aside for a moment and thinking about the players. I mean, some of Jordan's greatest players have come from one or the other club. Um and between the two of them, they have played legendary matches, you know, against each other. Um, that some of Jordan's best football has been played between these two teams, and they have plenty of championship cups and trophies to prove it between the two of them. And so, in some ways, there are moments when they play each other, obviously they're they're fierce rivals, but there are also moments where they're not only not rivals, they're on the same team, and that's when they elevate to the national club, which is gonna draw heavily from the best teams in Jordan, which often means feistly and waftat.

Guy Burton 15:39

And may I ask? Because you're talking, I mean, I was struck when when you were talking about maybe this distinction when the fans will be um chanting at the other fans, and so that's created problems with the authorities but what and not at the team. But um does that you know that ethnic divide does that does that ever find itself itself onto the pitch as well? So was it the case that historically these two clubs would draw either from the Palestinian uh community or the Jordanian community? And has that now effectively just gone? I mean, they just draw that they they don't there's very little in terms of ethnic distinction between the between the the playing sides.

Curtis Ryan 16:16

Yeah, that that's definitely correct. That that um originally it was much more of a distinction. That's how they start. I mean, one started as a way to empower uh empower young Palestinians and um bring them into community, uh, and and to sometimes play against a very well-established team that's even older than the state itself, you know. Um the coaching staffs also actually for a long time reflected that of heavily Palestinian or heavily East Jordanian coaching staff. Um now it's a you can see a little bit of that, but there's also a mix. I mean, players do mix. Um and but I I think nothing represents the I mean if that represents a fissure, I think the national team represents the opposite. Um it's if if there's when you when you see them all mixed, it's it's almost certainly on the national squad.

Guy Burton 17:01

Before we come to talking about the national side, um just one other I'm just a little bit curious about other elements of potential uh difference as well. I mean, you we've talked about quite a bit about the ethnic uh distinction. Is is there any kind of essence uh existence of a of a sectarian or uh a social class uh distinction uh when it comes to Jordanian football as well? Do we see any differences in in those risk in that respect at all? We've touched upon the geographic, for example, because you talked about um Al-Hassani, I think it was, and and another club from Ibud, you know, showing a bit of success compared to you know the Amani teams of of the two two main rivals we've been talking about. But are there any kind of social class differences, sectarian differences at all that we can see in Jordanian society that's reflected in football?

Curtis Ryan 17:50

I think that one too, I think I would say more earlier than than at present. So now, I mean, sometimes there is there's a social class issue of some you know families just having more access to training and equipment and the ability to really uh develop a young person's interest in really going further with this. But you know, what that started as in a camp, you know, so it did start. There was definitely a social class element to who is in that club and who is with Faisalie. Um over the time, over time, though, I mean, there's still players who are drawn from you know very poor, uh limited circumstances, and others from middle and upper middle class families across the various clubs at this point. Um but I would say for for listeners who don't know Jordan that well, Jordan is a you know small Middle Eastern country that's just over 10 million people. It's at one level looks uh very homogeneous. It's overwhelmingly ethnically Arab, it's overwhelmingly uh Sunni Muslim. Um, so this is, you know, it's not even a true ethnic division, right? It's a perceived ethnic division, a kind of constructed one of uh Palestinian versus East Jordanian. But the community is also includes both Muslims and Christians. Christians have been a huge, they're a small minority, but they played a huge role in Jordanian society and politics and economics from the beginning of the state to the present, and also other minority communities like the Circassians or Chechens. Um, but what we don't see in football clubs and the football pitch is we don't see any, you know, squads organizing as you know, Christian versus Muslim or Circassian versus Arab or anything along those lines. They are part of Jordan's diversity, and it's more diverse than people tend to think it is. Um, but we haven't seen clubs that center on those along those lines. So it's really, I think, see it as more that one sort of identity line fissure. And then the other parts that maybe follow are more regionally oriented, and that's just familiar to any country. You know, that there are people from way up in the north and people from way in the south um having very different sports loyalties, but it's that's not a fierce or it's not really a political fissure.

Francesco Belcastro 19:50

Yeah.

Curtis Ryan 19:52

Sorry, Francesca.

Francesco Belcastro 19:53

Okay, no, please, please, guys. It's a very interesting thing. So yeah, let's move on a bit to the national team because obviously the the big talk now is about the World Cup. But what does the national team represent for the Jordanians? We've talked about division in society, and you kind of alluded to the fact that the national team is um is probably the opposite. But in such a complex society, in a country with such a rich history and with a sort of historical process that some listeners will be familiar with. Um so what does what does the national team mean in the context of of Jordan before we go to the qualifying for the qualification for the World Cup?

Curtis Ryan 20:31

Okay, yeah, I uh I think it means a lot, actually. I mean it's it's the most popular sport in the country. Um the the national team gets a lot of support even when it has even when it's not doing well, and right now it's doing really, really well. It's been a great couple of years for Jordanian football, best they've ever had. So the team is known as as the the Nishama, um, meaning that's either translated as the brave or the chivalrous. Um so it has this sort of uh noble bearing that that readily resonates with a lot of Jordanians, and they the they will wear the the white, uh, red and green national colors uh of the of Jordan, which actually also happen to be the Palestinian colors just now without the Hashemite star on. Um so for every Jordanian, um the the the support base for the Nishama for the national team is is Muslim and Christian and Arab and Circassian and Chechen and East Palestinian and East Jordanian and tribal and non-tribal men and women, it's is everybody supports the Nishama. Um so I mean I think the internet will break in Jordan for uh during the World Cup when they get their their first game going and and people are gonna be um, you know, like this happens during the World Cup anyway, even when Jordan is not in it, you know, with where businesses who don't usually have TVs will bring in TVs and people will all be watching all the games, no matter where they are, no matter what they're doing. So with Jordan actually in it, I I think they're gonna go like over the top. To try to support the national team and hope they do the best because, you know, they have come really close before. And they almost got into the World Cup for the 2014 Cup in what would that be, Brazil, and came literally one game short. They were doing so well in qualifiers and came up short to Uruguay and didn't perform well in those games. And that was suddenly just poof, that was that. And then they had a couple of years where, you know, you think they would be building on that, but they sort of slid backwards, I would say, for a while. But for the last several years, they have been making a roaring comeback. Um, and uh were in the finals of a couple of different regional cups, you know, and now have finally roared through the qualifiers to actually get into the World Cup for the first time, which for a country of this size and not a wealthy one, this is not an oil giant in the region, they don't have the resources to put into national football like what like other clubs do. But they get a support base that includes, you know, the least privileged people in society supporting the team and right up through the royals enthusiastically supporting it. So honestly, like every time they win now, uh, the crown prince of Jordan, Prince Hussein is, you know, usually in the locker room congratulating them afterwards. So they keep getting the royal stamp of approval. Um, and the king's half-brother, Prince Ali of Jordan, is the guy who used to be a top FIFA official and has done all these things with refugees in women's football all over Asia. Uh he's still the kind of uh I think the most familiar face, uh, supporting um the team and its and its efforts. Uh and so I think there's a lot of enthusiasm. They just want him to do well, but they also think that they've no matter what happens, I think they think you know resources will come to the country and they're going to be able to keep keep developing football in the kingdom.

Francesco Belcastro 23:55

When I hear these stories, I think that maybe FIFA has done one right thing in the last uh 20 years, which is you know expanding the World Cup because it's fantastic to see other countries getting involved. I know it's not everyone agrees, but I think it's it's great that other channel other countries get a chance. Guy.

Guy Burton 24:11

I was just looking at the uh the the squad they have, and I'm struck by how much it is a local-based uh squad. And so many of the players are playing for Jordanian teams. Not I mean a few uh have had been called up who are playing outside of the country. Um, you know, one uh one one uh you know Tamar Bani Oda who plays for West Brom, he's had one cap. You've got Musa al-Tamari from who's playing for Ren, and and uh Mohammed al-Nasser who's playing you know for a Danish club, HB Korger. But beyond and maybe a couple with Egyptian teams and one or two Turkish teams, but mostly it does seem to be uh you know a domestically based squad, which is quite uh striking. I would I mean what do you what are you you know Cletus, what's your what's your take on that? And do you think where do you think they're going to go in terms of this particular World Cup?

Curtis Ryan 25:03

Yeah, I'm I'm not sure, but I I take your point. That's a really good point. That that if you look at other World Cup squads, they're very often drawing from, you know, I mean, think about teams that say, well, we have you know the this this many players in the English Premier League, and here here are the players in the Bundesliga and so on. Uh Jordan doesn't have that. They have the one player, uh star player playing in France, they have a few in Doha playing in Qatar. Um, most of them are playing for Jordanian clubs, and Faisally is really well represented on the current squad, and a bunch have been called up from Watat as the as they're kind of sorting out who's going to be the final squad to really, really take the the pitch um uh in the World Cup itself. Um but so I I think it's very exciting, but yeah, it is very much a homegrown squad. Um to the point that actually this is um not so much analytical, but I can tell you there are people in the fan base um who were less than happy with Jordan's near misses in uh recent tries because they got to the end of what was the first one in 2023, they got to the the Asia Football Cup uh that was actually being held in um Khatzar, and Katsar won um in the final, and Jordan played a really good game. Um it and that but they did win, and there was much bitterness that the the Katsari squad was uh noticeably international. Um people had been given Katsari citizenship who were from you know many, many places. So there's I remember fans complaining a lot about that. And then they came close again, even just last year, actually, uh, in the Arab Cup, um playing in Doha again, actually in the exact same stadium. And they came up short in a brilliant game uh that went um uh it went into to extra time, but they ended up uh losing to Morocco, what, three to two in a tight, tight game? And Morocco's you know magnificent team. They were in the World Cup last time. So the fact that they went toe-to-toe was kind of amazing. So here they are going to the World Cup, uh in in Canada, in the United States, in Mexico, um, and I believe all Jordan's games, I'm pretty sure, are in the United States, at least for what would be the first round. So the question is, you know, can they get out of the first round? And they have uh drawn group J, which means they are playing Austria right off the bat. I'm not sure what to expect in that particular one. Um they're playing a team that's from the Arab world, actually, another Arab country that has been to the World Cup five times, uh, Algeria, which usually fields a really good squad. So that will be a really tough game. And the real bad news is they drew Argentina. I'm pretty sure it's the other team uh in the in the whole thing. So uh that's uh they're playing well, I think they're playing Argentina and Texas in the United States. Uh so that's it's a tough draw, I think. Actually, those are three very different level teams, most likely. They have a shot, um uh, but I'm I'm not sure. I'm not actually sure how to feel about that draw. When they when they drew the the defending champions, that was kind of not what I was personally hoping for.

Francesco Belcastro 28:11

I think it's gonna be a great celebration, isn't it? Playing Argentina, yes. I don't know what they're hoping for, but it's you know it's it's a reward in a sense for how far during the football has gone.

Guy Burton 28:21

I mean, talking, I mean, you've we've talked a little bit about uh you know the the prospects for the team, but can we talk a little bit about uh you know the possibilities of the fans actually being able to come to this this World Cup? Because in January the Trump White House uh announced a list of all a bunch of a number of different countries that are going to be banned in terms of receiving visas, and Jordan is on that list. Can you tell us a little bit about how that news has been received in Jordan and what are the implications of that for you know fans coming to the World Cup?

Curtis Ryan 28:51

Yeah, I think it's uh disastrous. Uh I mean I think with the world for the World Cup in general. I mean, that we have think about how many sub-Saharan African teams aren't sure that anybody can come, or even if the club is going to have trouble getting into the country. Uh, I think in Jordan's case in particular, um, the Trump administration kind of constant uh anti, well, it starts with his whole anti-immigrant rants and things like that, but the sort of right-wing populism that's dominated the US under under Trump, um, I think a lot of uh Jordanians feel like they're being hit by strays here, that they like they keep kind of looking around as startled, like, wait, what? Why are we implicated in this? Because the the Jordanians, even Jordanians who are who are harshly critical of their regime, are used to the regime having an intimately close, tight relationship with various US presidential administrations. So to have one, literally the only one, where there's this ongoing kind of open-closed, open, closed door um type of relationship and constant ruptures. Um, for Jordanians, I think football may be the least important aspect of this, but it came as yet another, it's almost think of it as like piling on the whole list of insults that have already taken place, or clueless insults too. Um, including this is the same guy who, you know, had months only months earlier had talked about expelling the entire Palestinian population of Gaza to Jordan and to other neighboring countries, and had to be informed several times that this is just not possible, and plus it's ethnic cleansing. So um that that would be just utterly horrific. And so it it comparatively speaking, it's it's not as witty an issue, but it's just emblematic of the kind of I think there's a widespread collective sense of complete disrespect on the part of whether people are for the American Alliance or against the American Alliance. It's actually been an odd unifier um that of oh in outrage, a negative unifier, you know, people are just thinking, how how dare you? Like who how are we on this list, any list that you actually have, especially at this moment when we finally we Jordanian uh Janians finally get into the World Cup. Um, and a lot of Jordanians are very familiar with the United States. So I'm sure there are a lot are planning to travel or at least were. Um, but I really do think the Jordanians, unfortunately, are in the in the boat with uh a lot of other peoples around the world, um, and from anywhere around the world, actually, but some worse than others in terms of conditions of having to second guess whether it makes sense to try to come to the United States for the World Cup at all. Whereas I don't think anybody, if they're able, you know, if they're in a financial position to be able to even have this discussion, I don't think anybody's second guessing whether or not to see a game in Canada or Mexico. But there's there's only one of the three that's deems this sort of populist, hostile, unwelcoming environment. And unfortunately um it's the United States. So I hope that is not as I said, their first three games are all scheduled in the United States. Um so much has to happen between now and the World Cup um for this to really truly be possible for their fans and even honestly for their team.

Guy Burton 32:02

I mean, if if if Jordanian fans are but not going to be able to get visas, can you tell us a little bit about uh the nature, if there is one, of of a Jordanian diaspora in the United States? Uh is the whereabouts is it concentrated?

Curtis Ryan 32:17

Um we actually have a lot of Jordanians, uh I would say a bit a bit scattered, but uh heavily on the coasts of the United States. So there are Jordanian communities on the west coast in Los Angeles and San Francisco, um uh but but way more heavily on the east coast. So tons in Washington, DC, in the greater Washington area, um Northern Virginia, New York City, um down as far as Atlanta. So I guess a bit more East Coast hugging. Um there are societies that support Jordanian trade and things like that in cities like Philadelphia. Um so I I guess what I would expect at this point, because I'm sure you know we would hope FIFA would do something useful about this. But since the FIFA president has yeah, made up a peace prize to give to Trump, I just don't see him um, I would be very surprised if he's able to do anything particularly useful. Um, but on the other hand, um the the King of Jordan, um, and again, his supporters and his critics alike are are well aware that the the king comes to the to the United States fairly often. Um, and when he does, um, he tends to make a point of not just always seeing whoever the president is at the time, but leaders of both of the two major parties in the United States, Congress, in the House, and the Senate. And I can guarantee they're running through this uh uh into trying to lay the groundwork. I mean, normally this is not what they're talking about. Normally it would be, oh my goodness, what's happening with Iran or the Gaza situation, or, you know, obviously more important issues really, but this has to now be added to the list. I mean, this for the for the Jordanians, you know, grassroots people are excited, but I think for the regime, they see this as like a showcase. Um, they don't want to miss this opportunity, and they absolutely want their, you know, they know their fans are gonna be outnumbered by the Argentina fans or or whatever else, but they want them reping there. They want them to be on hand. Oh, and actually, since it's in Texas, there's a Jordanian community in Texas, right? They're they're not gonna have to that community isn't traveling very far for the game if they can actually get there. Um, so I do hope there will be some things, I suppose probably a little more behind the scenes in a way that we won't see in order to get the door opened. I think what the Jordanians might likely get is a kind of exception, um, which would be sad for other countries, honestly, but that might be what they're gonna try to get.

Francesco Belcastro 34:42

Well, let's let's hope that um something comes up because it's really it's really sad to see that this should be really a celebration for everyone, and the list of people that not be able to go either because of nationalities or because of political views or people fearing that it might so it it's very long and it's uh Yeah, and boycotts, possibly.

Curtis Ryan 35:03

I mean boycotting boycotts as well. So we may there may be a lot between now and then of what where this actually goes, but yeah, there may also be boycotts.

Guy Burton 35:11

Is there is that being talked about at all on in Jordan?

Curtis Ryan 35:14

Um yes, actually. Um there are people who are trying, yeah, and it's like you can almost imagine the hand-wringing kinds of discussions, even within uh people in the same family, of thinking, okay, which is the which is the appropriate way to react to this? Do you just not dignify it and therefore absolutely do not go? Or do you respond to it defiantly by going on purpose and getting risking it, getting past, and representing Jordan at this highest level of football in the world, so that the TV cameras have no choice but to see Jordan zealous fans in the stands waving Jordanian flags and having flag face paint and all the other things that people want to do. But I I know of play, you know, and a lot of Jordanian friends who are very divided on what is the appropriate way we should respond to this. And honestly, I'm not seeing a whole lot of middle. You know, it's people thinking it's it's all in or we should go all out. Um, there are definitely people who think, as a matter of principle, maybe nobody should go. But also they they hit the rejoinder, I think, very quickly of, but we're a small country, what would be the effect? It's not the same as you know, if Brazil or Argentina for that matter boycott, you know, the World Cup in the United States. But Jordan Little Jordan, what what can we do is one of the things that you're gonna hear in terms of discussions. But I think uh one way or the other, though, uh, since this is a you know famously mercurial and volatile president and is wildly inconsistent on almost every topic, I am hoping that this is the kind of thing that as we get closer, the situation has gotten safer uh for people, not just not just his ban. I mean, US security forces are you know harming and even killing people here. Uh so um I'm hoping the situation is very different by the time we get to the World Cup, that it's actually what it should be, which is, as you said, a happy celebration. It should be welcoming, um, it should be joyous, it should be inclusive. Um, I don't associate any of those with the Trump administration, those exact words, but I'm I'm hoping against hope that we can get there so that Jordanians can enjoy this really unique moment in national history um and can enjoy it on the pitch, you know.

Francesco Belcastro 37:23

Yeah, I just want to say, like we we just mentioned, like we we obviously the fans traveling to the U to the US are concerned, but we probably should have said that our solidarity goes to our friends and and colleagues and and people uh in in the US that are also um suffering because of the current administration. So we forgot that and it's important. Guy, your question is on women's football, isn't it?

Guy Burton 37:46

Well, but can I ask us one last question about the World Cup as well? Because you you mentioned Curtis, um talking about you know how nice it would be to see Jordanians waving their flag uh in the stadium. And it strikes me that you know one of the things that's been discussed uh particularly after the 2022 World Cup was how visible the Palestinian flag was in the first Arab World Cup, you know, being just flown at Stadia around Qatar. Um and one one would not I don't know what the situation is going to be, how sensitive it is to wave a Palestinian flag, but given the similarity between the Jordanian and the Palestinian flag, one has a star, the other one doesn't. But other than that, it looks pretty much the same. Do you think there is any potential for for for for conf confusion or problem on the tar on the on the side of security forces there?

Curtis Ryan 38:41

Um I mean in terms of how American security is sort of predisposed to what they've been warned against. Yeah, I mean, if they have because so far they've they've shown an alarming uh level of inability to to respond to anything sensibly, um, especially because they're giving these little briefings that say, here are the tattoos that you should pay attention to, or here are the emblems. So if yeah, if the Palestinian flag is one of the emblems, I could see that being a huge problem. I would think, though, that federal authorities aside, um, that local stadium authorities would get the quick briefing. Um, that, you know, here's what the flags look like. And I it wouldn't shock me. Let's say, let's say there weren't a Trumpian factor here and we weren't worried about American security forces and harassment and um things like that. If that were something that weren't a concern, then the other concern might be where, wait, are are people going to be waving both flags or just the Jordanian flag? I think you're mostly gonna see the Jordanian flag. But yeah, as you said, that the Palestinian flag was making an appearance at countless matches um in the last World Cup um uh often. And I I expect it will at this World Cup as well. And in I wouldn't I wouldn't be shocked that because I just think the the way doing this as say a fan, watching the Jordanian national team, let's say, play Argentina in I think this is gonna be in Dallas, Texas, if you were actually the same person flame holding two flags and waving them both, I think that would be read in a really different way than if you were, you know, in a well, in a feistily wachtat match where people would just think you're apparently very confused and need to really pick a pick something here. But in this context, I think people would read it not as anything divisive with intra-Jordan. I think they would read it as I support Palestine and an independent state for the Palestinians, and I support my beloved Jordan. I just think it would be read differently. So I let yeah, one hopes that the security is primed correctly to be able to read what they're actually seeing as clearly not a threat. Yeah. Not that it would be under any circumstances, but not a threat anyway. Yeah.

Francesco Belcastro 40:46

So I want to ask a last question on women's football. We had a couple of weeks ago a fantastic episode with um Asil Tufaili uh on uh football women's football in the Middle East with the focus on Lebanon. Um what's the situation like in Jordan? Have we seen the the uh we the women's movement growing in Jordan? Has it been something that I mean you mentioned that there's been an interest by the state to promote it, but what's the situation like? Is it uh are we seeing a bit of a growth in the league? How's the national team doing?

Curtis Ryan 41:17

Yeah, it's that's a really great question because uh Jordan it it's it's nowhere near the level of the the men's team, and this the men's team have just themselves broken through to the the World Cup for the first time ever. So they're they're not there yet. Um, but there was a similar timing to when the the men's team came so close to the World Cup and then didn't quite get there in the early uh 20 teens. And 2013 and 2014 was kind of a key year for the women's team as well. So, A, there is a Jordanian women's national team. For the men, it's the Neshama. The the women's version is the Nashmiat, which is also means the same thing, the brave, the chivalrous. Um, and they're actually, you know, they they had fielded a really good squad uh and they kind of led in two ways, actually. Um they were uh competing really, really well and starting to get the the country really excited, uh, won a host of different matches um for in West Asia and then in in the broader Asian Cup. And they ultimately they got to the Asian Cup, uh, but then in their qualifying matches, they were they were dominating. I mean, they were they were playing games where um some of their scores, including against Lebanon, they had done a 5-0 game against Lebanon, which people were thinking, wow, that's that's probably the high watermark of the team. And then they played Kuwait and won 21 to nil all right shortly after that. It was just overwhelming. So there was this sense that, wow, they they have arrived. You know, if you were wondering whether this team can play, this team is here, you know. And in the cup, when they were, they were, I think, outmatched by, you know, a lot of East Asian teams in particular have a longer tradition of women's football. So, you know, South Korean and Japanese and and and Vietnamese and Thai teams were, you know, doing better overall in the tournament, but they still got past that point. And now I think we're back at one of those moments again. But the other thing I would say about the early the you know, 20 teens um is they were also at the forefront of a kind of global struggle that has affected a lot of Muslim women players, no matter where they're from. And that was Jordan actually took the lead in pushing for the sports hijab, a specific version of the hijab that women could wear if they choose to, that is sort of uh um safe, that you can't be pulled and your head yanked around. That was one of the alleged concerns of FIFA. And that was a really contested struggle there uh that Jordan um, I would say took the lead on, very much so, and was ultimately successful in. So it's actually transformed women's football for Muslim women anyway, worldwide, which therefore has expanded football for women worldwide in terms of who the players are now. So Jordan's women's national team, if you if you watch them on the field, you will see women who wear hijab and women who don't. If anything, it's even more diverse than the men's team, meaning Muslim, Christian, Arab, Circassian. It's a very collective mix of young women. And one of the things, well, they're we're not sure if they're going to qualify for the Women's World Cup yet, the next women's World Cup. They haven't yet, but they've come close, you know. But I think that would be for them another glass ceiling broken. So the men's World Cup team, though, in some ways, by having this level of success and bringing this level of funding back into Jordan for Jordanian football will actually help the women's team as well, because it's certainly helped just public enthusiasm. So they're, I guess I would say they're being noticed more and people paying attention to it. So I think that's pretty exciting. And also some of their highest profile backers are the same people. So, you know, Prince Ali is the guy who's who's been sponsored the team from the get-go. They were founded in the early 2000s. Um, but it's not just a royal thing. I mean, this this team definitely has got it's got roots in society. Um, and so their their players are literally from every walk of life in the country. Um, but it's as I said, it's a poor resource country. They don't have the resources a lot of other states, even even Gulf uh Middle Eastern states have done better. And the other thing I think that's helped them is um Jordan was at the forefront, not in Asian football, East Asia was way ahead. But in West Asia, more or less Middle Eastern teams, almost none had women's teams. But since Jordan was ahead of most, it almost meant like there was a period there where it felt like there was nobody to play. So they're playing these powerhouses, you know, the Japanese women's team, their national world champions, and stuff like that. But now that teams have developed in most Gulf states and other parts of North Africa and Western Asia, the competition has changed completely. And they they have a it's given them all a chance to advance out of now a whole West Asia Federation that wasn't really there before. So I'm really, I think a lot of people you can tell I'm I'm a fan. I'm not just an analyst, I'm also a fan. And so I that that there's a sense that we really hope you know that they can they can also break through and get the recognition they deserve.

Francesco Belcastro 46:10

Fantastic if you have the the men's team and then the women's team qualifying in uh within a couple of years, that'd be great. Absolutely, that'd be great. Yeah.

Guy Burton 46:19

Well, maybe we can actually ask Curtis. I mean, maybe we can have you as our reporter on the ground, um, you know, sort of the World Cup, you know, at the at the Jordan Games, you can tell us how it went.

Curtis Ryan 46:30

Or I hope. I hope I can get there. I have now trying to figure out if that's possible or not.

unknown 46:35

Yeah.

Guy Burton 46:35

But thank you so much, Curtis. That's a really informative uh you know uh suite of of Jordan, its politics, its society, and its football, you know, domestically and and internationally. I feel much more prepared for the World Cup now, Francesco. What do you think?

Francesco Belcastro 46:50

I I feel I'm really yeah as well, more prepared. Actually, interestingly, and I knew a lot or I knew something about you know the domestic football in Jordan, but nothing about the national team. And I've never followed much, so you know, I knew more about perhaps the domestic rivalries, but so I've learned a lot and certainly not much about the women's football. So Yeah.

Guy Burton 47:11

Curtis, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. We really appreciate it.

Curtis Ryan 47:15

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Enjoyed your show and enjoyed being on. Thank you both. Thanks for your time.

Guy Burton 47:21

And Francesca, before we go, what do we have to tell the listeners? Go and watch more women's football. I think that's the fair whatever they are.

Francesco Belcastro 47:29

I think it's the fair.

Guy Burton 47:30

And also make and yeah, and also make an appointment for for for Jordan's games when they come up, right?

Francesco Belcastro 47:35

Yes, exactly. Put in your calendar. If the World Cup happens, Jordan is one of the teams to to watch. I'm still I'm 95% sure it's gonna happen. Not 100%. Yeah. What do we need to remind to our listeners, guy?

Guy Burton 47:49

Just the just the usual kind of things um as we as we close out. So if you liked what you heard, then uh consider uh liking or reviewing this podcast and the episode on whichever podcast platform it is that you get your podcast. So whether it's Spotify, Apple, um, Google, I think, and others. Uh could you also consider sharing the episode uh as well as the podcast with um your friends, people that you think might find this of interest? And also um could you please consider subscribing to the podcast so that you don't have to search for us that it will come through to your webs uh to your email uh on the Monday morning when it when it comes out? Um can we also ask you to please consider well if you've if you liked what you heard or you didn't like what you heard, or you have ideas about things that we should be looking at and guests that we should be talking to, can you also contact us? Because we're always open to doing that. And we've done a number number of those over the over the years that we've been doing this show. And you can do that by Francesco, how where how can they contact us?

Francesco Belcastro 48:49

In many different ways, many different ways. They can get in touch via email on football. I forgot again. Footballpodcast at gmail.com. Okay, it's only been three years, so I've got time to do that. It's only been three years. Yes. Then we are on Blue Sky, yes, football podcast. Uh we are on Instagram, we are on Facebook. You're just about to launch your TikTok uh page.

Guy Burton 49:14

We've been saying this for three years and it's never gonna happen.

Francesco Belcastro 49:18

With this new decade guy, I think you should consider that. Um, and then uh well, we got our separate um our LinkedIn personal LinkedIn account, which I never check, and you check very frequently. So you check from time to time, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then uh our email addresses so we're easily reachable. Thank you very much, Curtis. Thank you, guy. It's been absolutely fantastic, and we'll see you in two weeks' time in Portugal.

Curtis Ryan 49:44

Okay, it was fun, guys. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Guy Burton 49:47

Thank you. Thank you, bye.