Can Football Explain Globalisation? Revisiting the Theory ft. Graham Cornwell

What does football really reveal about globalisation—and where does that neat theory start to fall apart? In this episode, hosts Guy Burton and Francesco Belcastro are joined by historian and analyst Graham Cornwell (George Washington University; Box2Box) for a sharp, wide-ranging discussion that uses the global game as a lens on power, identity and money. Drawing on Cornwell’s recent Foreign Policy article, “Soccer Still Has Some Explaining to Do,” the conversation revisits Franklin Foer’s influential How Soccer Explains the World and tests its arguments against two decades of change—from the rise of global club brands and commercial tours to the persistence (and reinvention) of local identities, fan cultures and political tensions. 

The episode moves well beyond surface-level takes, tackling contradictions at the heart of modern football: hyper-global markets dressed up as “authentic” tradition, the uneasy coexistence of strict rules on the pitch with moral ambiguity off it and the geopolitical realities shaping everything from World Cups to player migration. With case studies ranging from Morocco’s World Cup ambitions to diaspora identities and the politics of fandom, this is a rigorous, accessible exploration of how football both reflects and distorts the forces shaping the modern world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the football podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co-host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

I'm a fine guy. I wanted to add that you are not one of the co hosts, you are the host of the show. Uh you are you're the master of the show, so I'm I'm your assistant.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

So uh all of all of this, you know, inflation, it's flattery, it'll get you everywhere, Francesco. But for about five minutes. So anyway, Francesco, what what do you you you you you also make it sound that you don't do anything, you do plenty. You have loads of ideas and suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Very kind of, you're very kind of you.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah, it is a it is a co-production, and yeah, very grateful that we both do it together. Do you know what we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

So I I mean I feel like we is it like is football and globalization a good title for the for the episode? Uh yeah, I guess so. So football. We got that we got a guest who's got very broad interests in in football and politics in different areas uh relevant to the podcast. So let's say football and globalization, but they're gonna feel a few be a few things, right? And and why? Who is our guest, guy?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yes. So so we're joined today by Graham Cornwell out in the state of Kentucky in the US. Graham, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Hey guy, hey Francesco. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of the pod and um yeah, delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

The check is in the post. Okay. So yeah, just to put it in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

No, I'm sorry. Oh, I just I I as I listen to the pod, I think like, oh my goodness, like my favorite authors of uh about about soccer and football that have been on here, and uh I feel a little out of my league, but I'm excited to try.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

No, no, no. Actually, we were super excited about uh asking you to come on. So just to explain to listeners why. So Graham's a historian, I'm gonna give a little bit of his bio as well. But what really sort of drew my attention was was an article that he wrote in foreign policy magazine, um, you know, back in December now, I think it was. And and it was uh it was it was talking about uh a book that came out about 20 odd years ago, but Graham's gonna talk about it, but which related football or soccer as he he would probably call it um to globalization. And that article is called Soccer, still has some explaining to do. We will link to that in our show notes as well. Um, but before we start talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Sorry, guy, the book, the book was our soccer explains the world, right? For for listeners, the book that reads.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Our soccer explains the world, but by Franklin Freuer. Yeah, Graham's going to explain in more detail about that. Yeah. Yeah. But before we get to talking about that, the subject matter, let's just explain to the listeners who Graham is. So Graham is a historian and he's a writer based in in Kentucky, as I said, in the US. He was Senior Assistant Dean for Research and Special Initiatives at the Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University in Washington, DC, and he where he was the lecturer a lecturer in international affairs, Middle East Studies, and Geography. He is currently a visiting scholar affiliated with George Washington University's Institute for Middle East Studies, where he works on Morocco and on how US military interventions are taught in primary and secondary school. He is a president of the board of directors of Box to Box, a nonprofit organization in Lexington, which is in Kentucky, and supports refugees through football and afterschooling tutoring support. He also designs custom trips to Morocco through his travel company, Orange AD Morocco. Graham, we wanted to get talking. So maybe you could start off by explaining a little bit about that particular book, which inspired your article. Can you explain what Froer's book was about so that to listeners who may not actually know anything about it?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah. So Fore's book came out in 2005, 2004, and then paperback 2005. And it was so how soccer explains the world, an unlikely theory of globalization is the full title. And in it, I mean, it's really a series of vignettes. Uh it's almost like a really travel writing, where he's going to different places and trying to explore how soccer, um, how football has been impacted by globalization, but also kind of pushed back against it. And I think what he's sort of goes out in search of is like how has you know the dominance of Manchester United and Real Madrid as global brands and the flow of players to big European leagues kind of created a monoculture. And what he ends up finding is that actually there's a lot of pushback on a local level, and that in some ways, you know, sort of quote unquote like ancient hatreds or animosities have have not died down, but maybe even have um have increased or have taken new forms. Um and, you know, in doing that, he's kind of I think in some ways he's pushing back on this like idea that a very liberal Thomas Friedman kind of idea that globalization is great and is going to make everybody wealthy and gonna kind of like bring um all these uh terrific prosperity and health and whatever to to the world. Um, but he doesn't necessarily find that, although he finds, you know, he finds some promise in globalization.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Interesting. Yeah, I was wondering if I could ask you a bit more on these. I mean, if uh um I often um with uh with students in in classrooms we talk about the different debates uh around globalization, sort of the idea that um some people think that globalization is not really uh a big change as in in an in in sort of an historical perspective, but also we often debate the sort of the role of of uh no global no-globalization forces in a way, whether on the left or on the right, for the ideologically or practically oppose um globalization. I think these debates have a relevance not only in the classroom but also in kind of everyday politics, um uh both in the US, in Europe, and and in other um parts of the world. What does football tell us about this uh these debates? Can can football suggest us ways of understanding it, or what's your view on this?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, I mean, in terms of like the no globalization thing, I mean, I think Ford, first of all, would see some of his stories that he's telling here as predecessors to this current moment of no globalization. Um, you know, for me, looking at the global game, uh, we're we're sort of in this really interesting uh kind of intersection of, or maybe it's a contradiction where the game is undeniably global, but we're seeing these like sort of hardened identities emerge and um in in kind of weird ways that are not really in opposition to the forces of globalization and global capital, but are are some ways like linked to them. Um, I mean, you know, in a way, there global capital is is so flexible. It's kind of learned that um it you know, it can be really obvious about its desire for profits, its desire to go global. I'm thinking about Premier League teams, you know, taking these preseason tours of Asia or North America, you know, self-consciously, like to recruit new consumers, to sell jerseys, to sell really expensive tickets so that you can watch, you know, teenagers play in a Manchester United jersey. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I think Man You even like flew to Asia last summer to play a game right after their season had ended, or somebody in the Premier League did this. Um, you know, there's like there's no sporting point to this other than money. Um, but it can also sort of dress up itself as local and authentic. And I think like as an American consumer, um, I mean, certainly, and some of your podcasts have mentioned this. I mean, I get in debates. Um, I'm a Liverpool supporter myself, um, with uh, and I say like I have been for a long time, but um, you know, I wasn't born a Liverpool supporter. Uh and we, my friends who are like Man City supporters, you know, about all this plastic soccer, you know, and stuff like that. And I even like if I post something on social media, I get called out by it. But the culture of sort of how soccer is presented to us, especially the Premier League, is presented in such a like a, you know, embrace the the history, the authenticity of this league, um, through this, you know, Peacock app that shows every game and you know has all these features that obviously weren't there a long time ago. Um, and it is cool, it it is immersive, but I think it's it's an interesting sort of example of how um globalization and and I guess I'm really talking about the forces of global capital can can easily dress things up as sort of local and authentic, um uh while also being so open about um you know the desire for profit and for um to expand their market share and things like that. Um, you know, I thought your episode with Josh Bland about working class football cultural in England was great because it's a little like, you know, sometimes I think we don't know what we're co-opting, um, what we're taking on culturally, like uh this sort of gearts kind of web of meaning. Like we all, you know, we culture is this web that we ourselves weave, but we don't really, you know, when you kind of start taking these interests in these things initially from a cultural perspective, you don't always under understand like it's full context in a local environment. I think um uh you know we kind of pick teams because whatever, and um uh but but that some sometimes comes with a lot of historical baggage um that we don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Can I sort of ask a follow-up question on these? Um I mean it seems to me that in a way, um, and that that's perhaps sort of credit to the to the global reach of the game, even contesting globalization as a global dimension to it. So there are kind of networks of of fans and and clubs, um, supporters that that are contesting globalization, but they kind of their networks are are very much a sign of of globalization, aren't they? Because, you know, global fans. So is there a paradox in there, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's just as part of this idea that so many, you know, I mean, it's a paradox, but that so many things can be captured in this in globalization. The globalization is is a thing, whether or not we're like pushing against it or not. I mean, um, you know, it's not just soccer. Uh college basketball teams in the US have gotten more um uh diverse, more international players. Like the NBA has obviously um you know just had its all-star game where it was the US versus the world. Like these these things have it, it isn't just a soccer thing. Um, and it's not also just limited to sports. Uh, but I think that it is really interesting how how clubs and supporters who are interested in kind of pushing back against the globalization um are seeing uh you know, seeing parallels, finding inspiration from um other supporters groups uh uh around the world. Yeah. And I mean, I'm I'm always struck just kind of the online discourse, the sort of social media debates that happen on Twitter or wherever, um often, often, you know, sort of I'm trying to think of the word, you know, making fun of people or or um uh teasing about their their plastic, you know, fandom and and things like that. And oh, you know, it's real. I support this fourth division team, and um, I'm never leaving them no matter what. Um it's like, you know, okay. Um that's cool. That's really cool. I wish I had like I I do that feels you know really awesome to me, but I don't I don't have that experience myself as a fan.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Can I just say to you, Graham, as a as with support of one of those teams, it is a painful experience. It's it's not it's not a joy, let's put it that way. Um if I could, I mean, can if I can bring it back to this, you know, sort of the content of globalization though. So I mean, the thing I think that if we can bring it back to maybe the the Franklin Froer book and your sort of critique of that, I mean, if we go back to some of the discussions and debates, and you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think some of the discussions and debates around globalization, particularly after the end of the Cold War during the 1990s, was there was this idea that it was a uniform phenomenon. It was going to be sort of the liberalization, the democratization of society. Society was going to pretty much look the same, right? Um, whereas, you know, I think what you were saying, what what Freuer was discovering in his book was that actually it's not like that. It's, you know, there are these kind of you know pockets of difference, of uh identity, ethnicity, religion, whatever it is, which you know can you know pushes back on that, you know, totalizing phenomenon. And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about whether that was, you know, the way I'm thinking about it was really the case as it was conceived uh when it came to football and whether it has actually sort of changed somewhat. Because you're, you know, you're talking about the fact that actually a lot of the globalization, globalization is a fact. You know, the fact that we do have fans all over the place, you know, that clubs will fly halfway around the world to play a game where so there is clearly a sense of globalization there. But what what's different? What's changed?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Well, I think, I mean, first of all, I'd say about the book is that, you know, I think he was a really astute observer. You know, the a great example is he goes to he goes to Serbia and he's looking at Red Star Belgrade and um, you know, the the kind of after effects of the Balkans and and how ethnic animosities, hatred have, you know, not dissipated. Um, how the power of the supporters club, really radical and often violent supporters clubs, um, is still really important to Red Star's culture. Um I think my my point is that he's writing in a very specific historical moment where he saw the the you know lingering resistance to globalization, even as like you know, Red Star is selling players abroad and participating in international, you know, uh tournaments and things like that. And um certainly the former Yugoslav republics are you know building a that a healthy reputation in the global game. Um but I think what really struck me is like that there was so much stuff that was had just happened or was about to happen in terms of globalization that the book didn't really like, didn't really grasp. You know, I think he's sort of like, oh, well, this monoculture that we thought was coming with globalization, where you know we'd all just be Manchester United or Real Madrid fans. It didn't really happen. Like these these clubs are alive and they hate like they used to and they love like they used to. Um, but you know, we were really close right then in 2004 or five to this a total new wave where actually it was going to be really hard for a lot of leagues around the world to continue to thrive in the same way that they had because of satellite television and new TV deals bringing these games, um, you know, just really aggressive marketing from the big, big, big clubs in Europe um uh of their teams, you know, I I don't really want to give a value judgment to that, but I think that that's um so that was a huge change at the like kind of the moment he's writing. Um and I think, you know, my main I I don't I don't want to really criticize somebody who didn't see the future, but I think it was happening then. And so that these these instances that he's talking about were well totally interesting, um, are really the story of like the decade before and not you know what was gonna happen in in the new really in the you know post post 9-11 or um 2003 or you know, I don't know, we could come up with a new periodization.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

So I was wondering if I could ask you a bit more of a sort of generic question, because obviously you you agree with a starting point than that football, soccer it's it's isn't it's a good tool to explain a complex phenomenon such as globalization. So what is that makes it a useful tool to conceptualize? Is it just its popularity or is it something else?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah, I I do think it's a good tool. Um, you know, I don't think the book really explained the world, or it didn't explain that much of it. Um, but I'm sort of bewildered or or fascinated by by like how strong the relationship is between the sort of dominant political forces of the moment and soccer, you know, um how how they're running so parallel. I mean, and they're not even parallel, they're they're really have intersected and are running together like a um, you know, sort of like two roads merging almost. Um, you know, we've reached a moment where, and this is like the thing that really baffles me, that gets me about the game. We've reached a moment where in the game, in the way the game is played, sort of the laws of the game with technology, with var and where FIFA and all these organizations, you know, want us to think the rules are so clear that the officials can, you know, watch a replay and just determine absolutely what is right and wrong, right? Like there's no gray area. We know when somebody's off sides, we know when it hit their hand. We can really, we can really say that. We have the capacity to say that. But then on this global scale, we zoom out and the game is basically decided like there's no right and wrong. You know, there's like it doesn't matter who you do business with, we'll allow anybody with money whatever access and privileges they want. So, on the one hand, you know, we're very focused and very confident on eliminating that gray area and the rules when we're on the pitch, um, while insisting everywhere else, it's all gray, like human rights abuses, dictatorial regimes, you know, who's to judge. Um, and I think that given FIFA's corruption and abuses, all that stuff, um, you know, I I feel those those abuses in the past, I feel kind of naive. Um, that I'm I'm still surprised at sort of how shameless this is now. Um, but there's this odd, and so I'm really fascinated by, you know, we're we see this one thing, we see how how sort of disingenuine, you know, politicians can be. Um, but then you know, we're kind of told to just like we're we're sort of letting these things go. And I the example I give is like sort of Ronaldo coming to the White House. And um uh, you know, I don't think it's really like there are probably lots of global consumers who do not care for the politics of the Trump administration, but are definitely not going to stop buying Ronaldo jerseys. Like they're just like, yeah, you know, it's fine, whatever. Like it's just a he's just an athlete. And I don't think that that 20 or 30 years ago we would have kind of accepted that in the same way that we have. But we've these these roads have really intersected to the point where, like, you know, there's not a meaningful talk about boycotting World Cups even in Russia and Qatar and you know, even in the US this summer.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

This distinction between rules on the pitch and rules outside of the pitch is a very interesting one.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

I just find it fascinating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Just to remain yeah, just a reminder to listeners that uh if they're interested in what Graham is saying, they should really check out the episode we did recently with David Goldblatt. Because a lot of the things that Graham was mentioning uh in a global context, David discusses them in a sort of British domestic um context, but there are a lot of pilots with what Graham was saying.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Was there ever really a golden era in which you know sort of uh the authorities, the you know, organizations and you know the people who owned clubs were you know whiter than white? I don't think it's ever really been the case. And if we think about some of the previous World Cups, I mean, you know, we you touched upon sort of issues to do with sort of you know human rights and and boycotts, but you know, if we go back to 1978 with the World Cup in Argentina, where that regime was using the World Cup to promote itself, much like you know, Mussolini used the World Cup in the 30s. Um, you know, the the FIFA for FIFA itself, you know, expanded the World Cup, you know, as a sheer political ploy to bring, you know, to win votes in in the developing world. I mean, yeah, it I'm I'm struck. It is I I hear what you're saying, but uh it doesn't seem to me like there's ever really been a golden age, as it were.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

No, and I mean I I go back to my own, I'm trying to express my own um the self-reflection of feeling silly at how naive I was to sort of think like um to be surprised at at how things are working now. The other thing is that I just think that when we talk about a sort of classic liberal globalization, Thomas Friedman approach, even for it's like uh that we are going to emerge with common rules, common sets of values. Um, it will be more democratic democratic, it will be more participatory at a level of playing field. And it and it, you know, it it seems clear that it hasn't. Um it has it has created a way which in which you know money uh can really propel yourself in the global game in a way that just is not the case. And whether that's like, you know, I follow Morocco, I spend a lot of time talking about Morocco, Morocco's emergence as uh a soccer power, you know, in the past whatever, six to eight years, you know, is about their investment, but also in in players and developing, you know, their youth team, and they've done a great job with that, um, both in men and women, but they've also like invested lots of money in infrastructure, um, you know, probably uh uh at the at the cost of investing in in. In in in other ways. And you see that sort of um I mean I think that's interesting. Obviously, we talk about Qatar too, but um the idea that globalization was going to be was going to bring something other than what it has brought, um, is I think maybe what what I'm talking about a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

The case of Morocco is fascinating because in terms of globalization, you also have the whole issue of Moroccans abroad, right? Of waves of Moroccan migration. And what that kind of that that is an aspect that has to do very much with you know identity, and and that's another a lot of Moroccan players are not born in Morocco or Moroccan Moroccan Spanish or Moroccan French. So that adds a very interesting dimension, I think, to what you were saying.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Well, I think that that's the chapter, you know, that's like the what the story I'd love to hear about, you know, looking at some of these players who have a choice. You know, I mean, often, and I don't think the players would even dispute this, they're picking the country where they're kind of sure that they're going to be able to play and have a chance to play in a World Cup. You know, that's not necessarily the case with Ashraf Hakimi, but you know, nonetheless, it's gonna be more competitive on the Spanish team than it would be uh on the Moroccan team to get to get a spot. He's one of the best players in the world now, but you know, we didn't know that 10 years ago. Um but that said, I think, you know, the Moroccan team, especially in in 2022, there was a really interesting kind of aspect of globalization where you had all these players born in Europe. Um, and I think even in 2018 in Russia, there was at least a couple games where they didn't they actually started a full starting 11 with no players born in Morocco. Um that and that wasn't the case this time, but in 22. But they, you know, who as they advanced, you know, I mean, really talked about their Moroccan identity. And in Morocco, there are a lot of, you know, there are jokes about some of the players when they speak Derige, when they speak Moroccan Arabic, they know they don't do interviews, they do interviews in European languages because they get made fun of. Uh, and the and the coach Ragragi is pushed back a little bit, like, you know, sort of like these guys are doing their best. But their emotional attachment. And I think actually the story, and you know, you saw so many images of Moroccan families and um the players' mothers embracing and stuff like that in the stands, that that story of Moroccans who do move abroad resonates with so many Moroccans, and I mean throughout the region, uh throughout the world, really, um, of like maintaining these cultural effective ties um uh to the place, the country of your birth, but you live abroad, and you know that everybody's got cousins or siblings who have moved to Belgium or or France or wherever and and grown and raised their family there. And they're see you know, so they're seeing uh a lot of that reflected in this team. Um so in some ways that that you know it it has that sort of authentically Moroccan feel that you know, maybe you'd think, oh, these are four and poor players. Like it's it's actually much more complicated than that.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

So talking about Morocco, since you are a historian of of Morocco, you are still actively involved with with Morocco and you know, you've organized trips there. Can you tell us a little bit about your sort of your thoughts about you know how it's like what's what's happening in that country in the run-up, the preparations for the 2030 World Cup there, particularly given I think there were protests you know a few months ago um in React by by people who feel that development is passing them by, the focus is on the football and not not on society. Uh what are your what's your take on all of this?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I mean, I think there's well, first there's there's no way to sort of deny that uh they've taken hundreds of millions of, I mean, perhaps more, um, and uh poured them into soccer infrastructure. I mean, the stadiums are beautiful, um, and they set themselves up really well to host the AFCON. And this is a little bit in, I don't know if you remember in, I think it was 2016. No, I'm sorry, 2014. I'm sorry, I might be getting there. Morocco was set to host um AFCON and backed out a few days uh like a few months before. And you know, ostensibly it was about Ebola outbreaks, but um, you know, that was a little bit of a red herring at the time. And actually, they had hosted the Club World Cup um that December, I believe it was, uh, yeah, it was like mid-December, a month or so before they were set to host AFCON. And there was torrential downpours and the stadiums couldn't handle it, and they flew the some of the fields were flooded, they had to move matches. It was a real, like kind of logistical nightmare for Morocco and looked really bad. And I think there was a feeling, there's a lot of rumors sort of circulating in Morocco at the time. I was, I was living in Robot at the time, that um uh the reason they canceled AFCON was that they they just were not ready to host it. Um, and it was gonna be uh a kind of a disaster. I don't know if that's true or not, absolutely a rumor, um, so allegedly, but they poured tons of money uh this next time around and I think put on a tremendous tournament. I I watched a lot of the games and I thought this is a super high quality, like having great pitches in AFCON really highlighted um how well some of these teams could play. Um But yeah, I mean the protests, of course, the money, you know, could have gone to all sorts of other uh other things. Unemployment's really high, um, you know, cost of health care is high, and access to healthcare is not particularly good. Um and then obviously, like, you know, cost of living and things like that. They're doing all these things to expand kind of infrastructure ahead of 2030. So more stadium work, but also expanding a high-speed rail line um that will connect Marrakesh to Casablanca. Um and you know, it's gonna be great for the fans. It's gonna be great, but you know, it is at a huge cost. And so I think there's a tension there. I mean, the Moroccan politics are such that the the king and the um the ruling Alawi dynasty are, you know, are still relatively well liked, no matter what. And um uh I think that Morocco has had a lot of success, that the teams um, and and that we're not just talking about the men's teams, the women's team has done really well in just coming on the scene in the past five years. The youth teams have done unbelievably well. Uh, and then obviously they they won this sort of Arab Cup, these kind of secondary tournaments. So a lot of success um and a lot of prominent Moroccan players in Europe that have come through the Moroccan system. And so I think, you know, without that, there would be more widespread, you know, heat, but they've had they have had success uh in the game. Um so you you're looking at these you know complex dynamics, but the king, you know, it's it's difficult to to really push back on on these policies. And I do think that there are a lot of Moroccans that take a lot of pride in how um what this infrastructure looks like, that they've um they've hosted great tournaments, that are going to host the World Cup. Um that's a big deal for them. And they it is a soccer mad you know country, it really is. Um uh, but I I see the protests continuing. I mean, I think people are um are uh dissatisfied with uh you know just their everyday opportunities, jobs and and healthcare and education and things like that. And um uh will they go, will they be super widespread and you know, kind of um emerge into a mass movement? I I kind of doubt it. But um, you know, we'll definitely see more protests as as we get closer to the tournament.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

We might have you come back on and talk a bit, you know, as we get closer to the assuming we're still going, of course, Francesco, but you know, we're when we get closer to the 2030 World Cup, we might have Graham come back and talk about 2030 World Cup, guys.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

That's far away.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

It is far away. I'd love to. I mean, you know, it's um I think it's gonna be it's just a wild, I don't know what they're trying to do with three countries and then you know, hosting the the first game in um in South America is such an odd FIFA. We'll just defined.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

So that's been quite an interesting aside about Morocco. But can can if we could just bring it back to this discussion that we we we we really sort of focused on at from the start, which is about globalization of football. Um, you know, you we talked a little bit about some of the things that Freuer missed, but that was because he was writing at a particular time. But was there anything else that that was in his book that you got somewhat frustrated by, or sort of themes and issues that that he also overlooked that uh are worth uh noting?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah, I mean for me, the main the main critique is that the book is very West-centric, very Europe-centric. Um, it's talking about globalization from the perspective of like how everybody wants to be Europe, um, how we can make everybody European. You know, there's, I mean, China doesn't appear in the book, even though China's at the time investing in African soccer stadiums as a sort of an early kind of belt and road um soft power uh uh move in in Africa. Um I mean the chapter that really stands out, there's a chapter on Iran, and it's about you know women uh getting access to the stadium, but also sort of broader um dissatisfaction with the um the regime and like how you know we deal with Islamists. Um it is really written from the perspective, I mean, there's of only in this little space between 2001 and 2004, uh as a you know, sort of left-leaning, liberal leaning um thinker, could somebody write this uh this chapter? I mean, it's really a great insight into how um kind of uh I want to characterize this, you know, kind of moderate liberals in the US viewed the world. Um not quite neocon, but um, but very much like, oh, we can transform uh the Middle East in particular through um through capitalism, through soft power, through promoting democracy, through soccer, things like that. Um, and um, but that the goal in the end is to transform it into something that we can deal with, right? That is gonna be uh amenable to our interests. Um and that undoubtedly these people want to be like us. They want to be the West. They want to be open and um and democratic, and they want their women to go wherever they want, and um, they want to buy Doritos. I mean, is it's actually a really bizarre chapter. Uh, it's worth it's worth reading just as a window into that that time and place in American society. So, but I think it'd be great. I mean, I would love for him to go back and write this again, uh, especially now um and talk about whatever stories there are to talk about uh in Iranian soccer um in 2026. And you know, I I don't really know, but um, because it, you know, we are 20 years later, we're still kind of in the same moment. Um uh and I, you know, it'd be great to revisit.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I have a feeling that chapter would be quite different now, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Well, what well, yeah. So if we if we're to put it that way, I mean, what would you how would if you were if you were charged with put it you know putting uh a new edition together, what would be your themes, your topics, your chapters?

SPEAKER_02 33:28

No, there'd be a great edited volume, actually. If you could invite a bunch of people to take on um a chapter and revisit it or or kind of take the issue at at stake in the chapter from a different angle. I mean, he has a chapter on Barcelona. Um, you know, it's a it's about sort of bourgeois nationalism and how maybe it's like not a bad thing. Um, you know, I think I would actually, because of like the this sort of global brand of Barcelona, I'd love to like revisit Barça Real from a um a different, a totally different perspective. Like let's go to let's go to Cairo and like let's talk about to kids about um you know Messi and Ronaldo and and how they get attached to these teams and like what it means to them and you know what how they how they sort of socialize around it. I mean, there was a joke in Morocco for a long time when two kids met each other that they'd say, like, oh, you know, hey, what's your name? Where are you from? You know, and then they say Barcer Real, like, which one do you support? Because the whole country supported one of these two two teams. And that's faded, but now you see their jerty their inter-Mami jerseys um and uh uh and and stuff like that around uh so they've stayed attached to these. So I'd like want to like kind of address these sort of big topics, but from slightly like offbeat angles. I mean, I think I mentioned the complex identities of of dual nationals would be like the first place I'd go. Um, and not just from my Moroccan perspective. I mean, here in the US, you know, we have this um we're sort of always grappling with the Mexican team about to trying to recruit um talented dual nationals to play for the United States. Um, and I think it'd be really interesting to, you know, sit down with some of them and talk about um how they make these decisions. And then I think colonial ties. You know, I would go back and I'd look at the colonial roots of the game, um, especially in Africa. And, you know, a lot of clubs were set up as sort of nationalist clubs in opposition to, but others had, you know, strong ties to the colonial regime. Um, and I think that that would be really interesting. You know, I'm um Jonathan Wilson talked a little bit on on your podcast about in our Argentina, kind of the British roots of the game. Um, but you know, for a lot of these places, we're talking about, you know, 60, 70 years ago that colonization formally ends. And um uh so uh how how clubs take on those um those things. And then you, I mean, you have to address the big money questions of if you're gonna write this again. Like that's the that's the big thing. Like missing here is sort of um how FIFA has expanded its reach, um, how money has given access, whether we're talking about, you know, Salt Bay and the World Cup trophy, or we're talking about um, you know, Kotura and the Saudis basically buying, um hosting a World Cup. I think it's um that that's the that's the missing missing link. And that was undeniably happening here um in 2004, too. But you know, maybe I really don't think on the same scale. Um and of course, like you've got to have a chapter on sports watch. Um, you know, that's key.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

I think you have you have got quite a few interesting chapters.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

I got the chapters, okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

All right. Yeah, I mean it depends if you want to keep some of the old ones and revisit them. Some of the old ones might still be there, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah, I mean, I'm I think the the red star chapter is really interesting, and I would go back to Belgrade and see what that's like in um in 2026. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

You probably also want to keep chapters that allow you to go and watch nice football matches, right? Yeah, I mean, I will say that.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

I mean, I felt jealous then, but going back, I feel even more you know jealous as an adult, thinking like, oh man, you know, with some kids at home, like this is what I would love to get away for a few months and just bounce around and really share this for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Well, that's been really fascinating. I think thank you so much, Graham, for taking the time to talk to us about the subject. And and like like I said, like we said at the start of the episode, we will um link to the uh foreign policy article which uh Graham wrote, which was kind of a book review of the Freuer book, as well as some thoughts about since several you know, 20 odd years later. Um so thank you for taking the time. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, Francesco Guy, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm a huge fan, and it's great to be um it's great to be on.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Too kind, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Okay, so Francesco, is what what what should we say before we before we go?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Well, we need we need people to um get in touch with us and suggest who we should be talking to. A lot of the nice episodes we've done are have been suggested by listeners. And how can how can people get in touch with us, guy?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Well, they can do that through the various wet um social media channels that we have. We're on Blue Sky, um, we have a Facebook page, we're on Instagram, and we can also be reached uh individually uh rather than through the foot poll accounts, but individually on LinkedIn. Francesco and I are both there. You can email us at footpolpodcast at gmail.com. What else?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Um yeah, we need to remind people to please like, share, follow, subscribe to the to the podcast, or whatever mean they are getting it through, whether it's Apple or Spotify, there are different ways, rate us as well, please.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Okay, so that leaves it uh for for us this week. Uh, we'll be back in two weeks' time. Bye.