Welcome to Just Make Art a conversation about making art and the artist's journey with myself , ty Nathan Clark and my buddy , nathan Turbork from Minneapolis . We're two artists trying to navigate the art world , just like you , and I'm excited to bring a pretty incredible woman and quote to this week's episode .
Speaker 2Yeah , so this week we're going to talk about a quote from the amazing Sonya Boyce . It's a pretty short one , but it's pretty powerful . Goes like this let frustration fuel inspiration . Let frustration fuel inspiration . You might have to take it away on this one , because I mean , it's been a minute since I haven't been frustrated since probably it's like the early 2000s , so I don't know anything about frustration .
Speaker 1Well , let me dive into Sonya Boyce first , who is a British artist who lives and works and teaches in London . She's a professor of black art and design at the University of Arts London and she is insane . She is a deep diver in the exploration of art as social practice and she's all over the map , like me , but I do not put myself even close to the category of her where she works in multidisciplinary facets of art drawing , film , photography , print , sound . I mean wow . She dives into the relationship between sound and memory , dynamics of space , and she's the first black woman in 2022 to represent Britain and the Venice Biennale . That is pretty powerful and long overdue .
Speaker 1I must say that there has been a black female represented in the Venice Biennale from Britain , so congratulations on that to Sonya Boyce . That is incredible , and so let frustration fuel inspiration . Sonya's frustrations are very different than yours and mine , obviously , with her history in Britain as a black female , and so we could easily dive into political things and her battle for racial and gender equality , that she has brought phenomenal storytelling through her multidisciplinary art to the world with to share that story with a powerful voice across the world . But we're going to kind of relate it more to just our own studio practices for you and I , and as an artist , letting frustration fuel inspiration .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think it's important to .
Speaker 2I mean you already had on it , but it's important to say that you know , I mean your frustration is your frustration and you know we're all going to experience , you know , a different form of it . So , whether or not your work is about you know the things that move you on a global or a broader , you know a deep level , there's always just going to be distraction , frustration , things that are going to , you know , resistance . Right , that would keep us from , you know , from making art , you know , which is the entire thrust of what we're trying to discuss with this whole podcast . So , yeah , I mean , I think you know the just the whole idea of , I mean , let's just talk about frustration . You know , while we're on that , on that subject , you know it , it can be anything and I think , when you're a human being living a modern existence , there's no shortage of things that you know could potentially , you know , frustrate us . And I think that you know , as I was considering this quote too , I was thinking about you know there's a choice to be made every time . You know we , we recognize that that there is frustration here , and not even that in and of itself , I think , is really important .
Speaker 2You know I've it's taken me a long time to get to know myself well enough to realize that , boy , I'm a delicate little flower . I mean I get frustrated and I get , I mean it's doesn't take much to , I mean , even just trying to get this . You know , get , get going today . The fact that you know the browser wasn't working , I had to restart and reinstall , like , ah , you know , and I used to fancy myself being so great at just rolling with the punches and , you know , you know , going with the flow . That just isn't true . You know like I'm , I'm very easily disturbed and easily bothered by any number of things , you know .
Speaker 2So I think you know , one of the things that I think is important in terms of converting , you know , frustration into , into fuel is first of all , acknowledging that . You know , just changing the language right , the , you know the , this association of I am not frustrated but there is frustration here , or even taking that that you know . You know whatever third party perspective of you know Nathan is experiencing frustration right now . It's a very different , you know different dynamic and it's something that I've learned through self-work and you know therapy to realize okay , I don't have to own that feeling necessarily , I don't have to be you know frustration . I just need to acknowledge that I'm experiencing , you know , frustration first and foremost . So let's just start there . What's your experience with frustration in general ? How easier or how good are you at recognizing that you're experiencing it first and foremost , and then what do you do with it ?
Speaker 1Well , and I'm in that same , that same boat that you're in , you know , working through therapy and counseling and those things , and you know coming to those realizations that you have , having dealt with with severe past trauma in my childhood and things where you know I've been lucky enough to see counselors and have a lot of help for healing and learning in those moments and when they arise and how they can affect you , especially for myself , right , I'm an extreme extrovert and I thrive on being around people , but with that , I have serious , serious highs and serious , serious lows , and so you know , I've learned to be a little more stable than so high up and so far down that it affects everything . And a great example for me , for my life , I'd say , is 2020 . And I felt like I was being berated by language and information from the news election cycles here in America , politics , racial divides , gender divides , I mean , there were so many things that I just felt like everything around me was trying to tell me something Right , from sides I agreed with , sides I disagreed with , and it you know , we all know , in America families are being ripped apart , friendships are being ripped apart through this divide over the last few years , and I had to really sit and think . So I was getting so frustrated With everything and I kind of thought to myself what's a way that I can control language in my life ? Because we're gonna get it from social media , we're gonna get it from music when you get it from the news , we're gonna get it from family , friends , all this information and language . And I was thinking what's a way I can control the language to kind of settle my frustrations and I decided that For the entire year I would listen to music with no words , so that and I'm in the studio , you know , four , six , eight , ten , twelve hours a day Painting and working , depending on the body work I'm creating , and so I have music on all the time .
Speaker 1And I thought even music has language right that speaks to us and influences us . What's one thing ? I could remove language completely from my situation . So I listened to classical music and jazz for a year and Did an entire body of work called paintings to sound Mm-hmm , but through this I started to research jazz musicians and jazz music and classical composers . But it really did draw that frustration out of me and allowed me to just be centered , yeah , and focused , yeah , but that's just one example of many .
Speaker 2That's probably a good conversation for another day . We may need to retitle this podcast conversation for another another day , you know , but as you're saying that , I'm thinking like that's interesting . You know comparison to . You know jazz , classical music , anything without you know words . You know that's kind of an interesting . You know comparison to the difference between . You know representational art and abstract art . You know as well . Yeah , but that's not what we're talking about today .
Speaker 1So let's get back on topic .
Speaker 2You know , I think so , the the fuel part of this Is is , I think , really where we boil down the , the power of this , of this quote , right , like so I was thinking about . You know , when you can convert , you know not just the positive inspiration or the , or the whatever the good stuff is , or whatever your definition of inspiration is right , I mean , there's plenty of , you know creatives who you know lean on or almost , unfortunately , require , you know , self-destructive behavior or little , or staying in the , in the darkness , so to speak . You know to inspire their work . But when you can convert whatever is present into fuel , you kind of become , you know , bulletproof from a creative standpoint , right , like I liken it to , you know , the , the , whatever , the flex fuel vehicles that can run on you run on gas , they can run on electric and , you know , boy , maybe even solar at some point . Right , so you become kind of that adaptable .
Speaker 2You know flex fuel . You know omnivorous , right Like whatever we , whatever you put in , you know we can convert into fuel when we can figure out how to use what is and what's available , as opposed to being in a spot where our , you know , creative process is conditional , you know , based on on things that in many cases Maybe completely outside of our control , right ? So yeah , just that . That whole idea of fuel , I really like that a lot .
Well , and I mean , that's that's the power and the beauty of art , right ? Is that ? You know ? You date back to Picasso's Guernica painting , right ? He let his frustration fuel his inspiration for one of the most transformative pieces in the history of abstract art , that really fueled the ideation behind abstract expressionism . Right that that it circled the world at the point , you know , during the World Fair in the US , when all the abstract , early abstract expressionists saw the piece and went , wow , I can put a motion To the piece and express my anger with war , my anger with this , my anger with this , and I can create that and put it out there to be a voice , right , and speak , you know , which is really .
Speaker 1You know what Sonia built a lot of her career , you know , on Powerfully and being a voice for the marginalized . You know , in the 80s , with the radical political art movement , the British black arts movement , you know , and she was a voice for those that Were marginalized , with race and gender and equality , and that that's the power of art , right ? It's like it's not just our in our personal frustrations . What do we frustrate within life ? Like art has been able to be a voice to say Hell no or hell yes , or look at what you're doing . I don't agree with what you're saying .
Speaker 1So here you know some of my favorite artists , like Glenn Najon , theaster , gates Just powerful political statements through their work that just give . I mean , I've chills thinking of some of the work I've seen of theirs in person , from Milan to LA to New York . And you know somebody like Sonya who has taken traditional elements right of Afro historic art , art from Africa the color choices to the figures and Representing family right , the dependence on family . When you can't depend on your political party or your country to support , you have to depend on family . And she's taking Historical elements and combine them into modern art as a voice for her people and for people outside of that to go , oh , wow , wow . I didn't realize this is what we were doing or this is what I was doing . That's the beauty of art .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , and what a powerful place to be , you know , as an artist , to be able to be in a place where we have the ability to speak for others , to speak for yourself , right , to talk about your , you know , your personal experience . I mean , a lot of her work certainly is autobiographical , especially the , you know , I really like a lot of her drawings around , you know , around around family and the family dynamic , you know . But it's amazing how , you know , one's individual experience , you know , definitely resonates with , you know , entire groups Of people , or you know people that just have a shared experience , regardless of what their particular you know walk of life or background might be .
Speaker 1Well , and you know Art , Art is different , right , and you think of something like Sonia , multidisciplinary , right , where she can paint , she uses photography , sound video , like it's basically all the senses . Yeah , you know what you think about it , right , and when you have basically a process or the story that she tells through her art , which is memory , is the big theme , memory you have to tie all the senses into it , right , because now you're able to touch on the viewer and the audience in multiple areas sound , sight , feeling . You know all the different types that you can be involved in with your senses . As my words , you know , my mental ability slips here , my own frustration . I'll let it fuel what I'm going to say next .
Speaker 1But that's , you know , that's the special thing about art is , you know , being a voice to those that don't have the ability to create something that you can put out there . Artists , you know , as Madeline Langell says , we're the ones that are aware of things with a heightened sense and we lie in bed at night thinking about how we can solve the world problems , but we have to get up the next day to create something to share what we're feeling , right , I mean , that's a special trait that we have as artists and artists who really take that step to really be that . That's a Sonya .
Speaker 2So let's talk about , you know how do we make this more , not more , but how do we apply this ? You know how do we make this more tangible ? Or , you know , tactical , for you know , for everybody . You know I think about like all right , okay , I'm dealing with this , this is my , whatever this might be , you know , for , for any one of us , but this is my frustration , this is my situation , these are my circumstances . You know what do I do with this ? You know how do I ? Let's just talk about you know , how do we , how do we convert that frustration , you know , and let it fuel inspiration .
Speaker 1Well , you know this is something that you and I have touched on before in previous podcasts is journaling and taking notes and ideating , you know , really building out the idea to what it could become . And you know we talk a lot about being mature as an artist and being immature . That growth process is okay . This is frustrating me Now . Why is it frustrating me ? What is frustrating me ? How is it frustrating me ?
Speaker 1You know , what can I create to tell this story and then really spending time researching and building out that idea ? Is that it going to be an installation ? Is it a painting ? Is it , is it a short film ? How can I tell this story and voice my frustration best ?
Speaker 1What is , you know , what is the fuel that I have as a creator , as an artist , where my strengths are to really put this idea into a practice ? And I know , you know a lot of artists ask me you know how ? How do I tell this story ? How do I even begin ? What do I do ? You know I've got these ideas . What do I do ? And I'm like man well , number one you don't need permission to do it . A lot of artists feel like I just need permission to go ahead and do it . There are no no's in art . You use whatever you want to use to make it . Nobody can tell you what you're making is wrong . You have permission . Go create what your frustration is really building to be . Go create it . But you got to spend some time really thinking it through so that you can really fulfill what you want that story to be when you put it out there to the world .
Speaker 2You absolutely do , yeah , and I and I will . You know , just speaking from personal experience , you know I've learned as I , as I figure out what's going on with , with , with myself , you know , internally , and just develop more awareness about , about , you know , you know myself it's . I realized recently how disconnected I am from you know , really , really being able to put a finger on . You know what am I feeling , what am I experiencing ? You know , just kind of this vague sense of , like you know , basic , you know , caveman vocabulary of Nathan is happy , nathan is sad , or , you know , oftentimes the sadness comes out , as you know , comes out sideways , as you know ,
as anger .
Speaker 2So , you know , I think a lot of it is just that , like you talked about the value of journaling , processing . I mean , I , I require that , like I don't have the , you know , emotional intelligence or or vocabulary to be able to , you know , just sort of process . Okay , this is what I'm feeling , this is what I'm experiencing , this is what's frustrating me . Okay , cool , got it . Now I know what to do with it . Like , I have to spend time with it . I have to journal . You know it takes a lot to just get it out there and and and even make the most basic realizations of like okay , this is , this is what's going on here , you know . So I think that that initial part , that process depending upon where a person's at you know with their own personal journey , but that's a that's a pretty important , you know , step in the process is just taking the time to really consider you know what , what indeed , is going on , before then figuring out you know what the hell to do with it .
Speaker 1Well , and you know , if you have an artist group of peers , share the ideas with them . You know , I think you know our , my mentorship group that I started is pretty fortunate that within each group , you know , there's five or six to seven artists within each of the three month sessions and you know numbers of them have grown close across all six sessions that I've had so far . Right , so 32 , 33 artists from different groups have gotten together . You know , france , spain , germany , us , whatever and built little networks of artists and and I know everybody knows how important that is now , when they see , wow , you know , I've got this idea , I can , I can build it out and then I can pitch it , pitch it but , so to speak , share it with my peers hey , what are ?
Speaker 1What do you think ? Right , what do you think ? You know , I know we've talked about don't listen to the outside world , but that doesn't mean , hey , this is where I'm going , this is where I'm strong , you know my work , what do you think ? How do you think I could really develop this like they ? I mean , there's so much importance and finding a network of artists that you can kind of have , critique your work or your ideas and help you flush them out as you go into the studio to work . So how do ?
Speaker 2you . You know , once you've identified , you know what it is , that you're , that you're , you know processing , dealing what , where the frustration might be , you know . Do you have any any tactical advice on on how to , once what you figured out and and develops some awareness around , you know what's going on . You know how to convert that into the necessary Activities . Right , like , I think , take a step back here before while you consider that , like you know , there's there's macro frustrations and then there's just micro frustrations .
Speaker 2You know I could talk about earlier , like it doesn't take much to throw me off . It's pretty embarrassing whenever To be totally vulnerable . Like you know the things that can , you know , throw me off and get me out of you , out of my groove , you know . So I'm talking about micro frustrations here . You know , obviously , but you know it , it doesn't take much , so I don't think it much matters . You know , for talking about a micro frustration , something more minor , every day , you know pedestrian , just life being life , or if we're talking about , you know , a macro issue that is heavy and real and deep , and you know something that isn't going anywhere anytime soon , either way . You know if there's something there , you know how do we convert it into , you know , creative activity .
Speaker 1For me , routine is very important and that I'm so scatterbrained as an artist . I love to sculpt , I love to do photography , I love to . You know , I produce an award-winning documentary film , I just finished my first novel . I mean , I'm all over the board . I write , constantly , create .
Speaker 1So if I don't have a routine in place right , student , you know , not necessarily set hours , but a routine right , a Bcd Right . It really helps me with that because when I'm in a routine I have a really good flow . So when frustration comes in and not talking like Outside world front frustration , just personal frustration , right the that that frustration of my work isn't really going where I want it to , I don't feel motivated to really work today and that frustrates . You know , I should feel motivated . I get to do this full time . Yeah , I Found that for me routine , which I'm not in a good routine right now , so there's been a lot of frustration lately . So when I'm in that routine I can battle those things and just make and sit and listen and work and write and I have a really good flow . Yeah , if I don't have that ebb and flow , frustrations build and my wife can tell and she lets me know .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that's a , that's a big one . I mean I think it does come down to activity , you know , and , and , and , doing , doing the thing , whatever the thing is , you know whether we feel like it or not , right , you know inspiration has to find us working . You know the muse has to find us working . So that's a , that's a big one , I mean it's , it's kind of a . You know To pull another , you know Jerry salts quote . But just get to work , you big baby , you know .
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely and that's a . That's a . I mean , it comes down to you know again what we're , what we're trying to communicate Just overall , which is just just make art . You know , make it about , you know , the big thing , make it about the small thing , but just keep making it . You know , and I think you know , one of the things that I've learned to you know just in in life and my previous life , you know , in business , is that you know I don't need to feel good in order to to show up and do the work . I don't need to feel good to perform good . In fact , you know , sometimes you know I perform better or I am more productive I'm laughing as I'm listening to my own verbiage around . You know , achievement based . You know value system , but regardless , you know it doesn't have to be . You know all all positive doesn't have to be all butterflies and rainbows . In fact , you know , not a lot of great art you know has been made around you know . You know I had a . I had a great day , you know , for every .
Speaker 2You know today was a good day by ice cube there's a lot more great art that was made about the shitty days and some of the very worst things that you know . He and countless other artists you know experience so I don't know it's about to show up .
Speaker 1Yeah right , showing up is the first step . Yeah right , that's the first step to you know , battling that frustration show up because it's .
Speaker 1It's so easy , right , to not show up . It is so easy to go . You know what , not today . I'm gonna turn Netflix on and watch season you know , the next season of Ozark , yeah , and then six hours of gun by . You know it's easy to not show up and not showing up . You know , showing up doesn't mean you have to be working on art in the studio , right ? Maybe you're just sitting in the studio and looking at your art . Maybe you're pulling out that book and you're reading 9th Street Women in the studio , or you're reading Picasso's Biography . That could be showing up . You know , just focusing on work , because when you're surrounding yourself by art , you're gonna want to create art at some point . You're gonna want to get in and work .
Speaker 1And I think I don't remember the exact words as I butcher the Mark Bradford quote . But he says even if I'm sick or I'm depressed , or even if I have diarrhea , I show up in the worst states of physical . You know , whatever , I do my best to show up . And here a great example the last three months of mine have been complete hell gosh , so hard to show up when I'm feeling so horrible . But what did I do in the times I felt like it . I read , I had my books out Reading David Lynch's book Wabi Sabi . For artists , you know reading multiple Joan Miro Biographies , helen Frankenthaler . Watching documentaries you know Films that I love Julie and Schnabel's films , art documentaries but I was still surrounding myself with art and I was still journaling , even when my body was aching and I felt like I wanted to Die . I was journaling what I could do when I get in the studio . That's still showing up .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah well , and you bring up a really good point too , which is , I think , the more you know , voracious you are about , you know reading and and just learning about other artists experiences , the more perspective you get about you know how big or small you know your , your stuff might be right . I mean , that's not true . That's not just about art , that's true of anything in life . Right , somebody's always at it . You know a lot , a lot worse than you and in spite of that , found a way to to show up . And oh , by the way , they're just people too , I mean , they're just human beings . It wasn't easy for them , it's not easy for anybody , you know .
Speaker 2I mean to your point , there's , there's never gonna be any shortage of , you know , reasons to to not Go to work , to not show up , and there's never gonna be any shortage of things that are gonna be more comfortable to do in the Moment . You know , as a distraction , you know , fill the blank with whatever your , your vice or distraction you know might be , it's always gonna be more comfortable , you know , to not show up To , to sit in the stuff and let the stuff , you know again , whatever that might be , distract us and keep us from you know , showing up and doing the work , and it does come down to Habits , right , comes down to routine , it comes down to , you know , I think this really , and we talk about identity or that , you know , having a personal code like I am somebody and just this is a mantra . This is . It may not sound true the first thousand times you say it , but I am somebody who shows up and goes to work . You know , no matter what , I'm gonna make marks .
Speaker 2I'm gonna read I'm gonna do something related to my practice , and I'm really , really glad that you brought that up , because it could be any number of different you know Elements or aspects you know of the practice . It doesn't just have to be , you know . Hey , I finished a piece that I'm stoked about today . It could be anything but just freakin showing up consistently is is the name of the game , right and over time , that's . That's gonna lead to the great work , right .
Speaker 1The crappy work leads to the great work , yeah , well , and our artists that were , whose quote we're using today . You know Sonya voice , right , she showed up , yeah , constantly , time and time again . And she , and , through that Perseverance , the amount of artists that she's inspired and taught and mentored and led , it's just phenomenal . Right and look , 30 years later she is representing her country in the Venice . Be an alley . 30 years later , yeah , we're not , we're not talking . Five years later , ten years later , right , like it was a constant showing up . Now , should she have been recognized earlier ? Absolutely yes , but man arts , a long game , yeah , and for a lot of artists , especially artists of different racial backgrounds , economic backgrounds Seem to not be recognized as much as other artists with certain racial backgrounds and economic backgrounds , which is very unfortunate . But she showed up and continued to show up and she is being well Recognized and it is so deserving . Man , talk about frustration , feeling inspiration .
Speaker 2It's a beautiful story , yeah , I'm really thankful that this , this quote in this conversation , gave both of us a reason to do a deep dive on her work , because it's it's so expansive and it's so inspirational and it doesn't matter , you know where you're coming from . I mean , it's you can , you can see , you can feel , you know , yeah , the deep , deep meaning you know in the , in the work and it's you know it's amazing . I mean , I always have a bit of a bias towards , you know , any creative that is dipping their toes , and in multiple . You know Waters and mediums , because I think that you know again , when , when , that , when that's in you , when there's something that's in you that needs to get out , you know it can find any number of outlets . You know ways to , ways to get out in the world and move and inspire people . So incredible artists , incredible story and , yeah , really great conversation . I'm glad we had a chance to unpack this today . Any closing remarks , mr TNC ?
Speaker 1Now I mean , if you're frustrated out there , go make some art . Get in the studio , get in your bedroom , garage , whatever space you have . If you have to work outside , go outside . Paper , canvas , cardboard , whatever the hell you have that you can create on , go there's . There's nothing you can't use . You know we talk about this all the time there . You have permission to use anything . You know , like mark Bradford said years ago , if I can't find it in the Home Depot , I'm not gonna use it , you know . So it's like that . That's just giving artists permission right to just go make art . You know . It's what this whole podcast is around . We just want to encourage you all you have permission to go make stuff and Inspire your community , artists around you , your city , your country , wherever you're from . Go be a man , be that storyteller and let your Frustration fuel your inspiration .
Speaker 2Yeah , and don't confuse . I mean , it's real easy . I don't think I'm the only person that falls in this category . But you know , when I hear you know just make art , I translate that somewhere between the meaning and my understanding is you know , make good art . Right , I'm only gonna feel successful if my definition , if your definition for success Is I made good art or I made art that I'm excited about . Well , guess what ? You know , we're setting ourselves up for failure a lot more often , you know than not . So just understanding that it's just the practice of you know writing words , making marks , you know doing , making as much bad art as is necessary , you know to to
get to the good art . So the definition of success comes from I did something , you know . I did something really in my practice . I Engaged in a portion of my routine to the extent that it was possible today , and that , over time , is gonna lead me to where I Ultimately want to go and help me say what I'm trying to say .
Speaker 1Yep , absolutely , I agree . Find those nuggets of beauty and all the work that you're doing now and let that guide you to when the great pieces come from . So , yeah , go make art . Find us on Instagram . We'd love to say hi to you , for sure , and we're looking forward to what we have for you .
Speaker 2Yeah , join us next time on , just make art over now yeah .