Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Just Make Art Conversation about making art and the artist's journey, with myself, Ty Nathan Clark, from Waco, texas, and my buddy, Nathan Turborg, from Minneapolis, minnesota. We're just two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you, and I am pretty pumped up about the artists we're going to talk about today, so somebody that's one of my heroes it's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk about a quote by the one and only Robert Rauschenberg. You know, one of these days we'll probably have a quote. It's going to be a recurring theme like hey, really excited to talk about this, but one of these days we'll have a quote. It's like, just not build it up at all.
Speaker 1:Like I'm kind of kind of so, so want to talk about this one, but we'll give it our best shot.
Speaker 2:All right, so here's the quote we're going to discuss today. I usually work in a direction until I know how to do it. Then I stop. At the time I am bored, or understand, and I use those words interchangeably. Another appetite has formed. A lot of people try to think up ideas. I'm not one. I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore. So lots to unpack here. Why don't you give us our first pass?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know that quote makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:If you're a Rauschenberg fan, if you followed his career, you know that he's definitely a guy whose appetite is constantly changing from one form, one medium to another.
Speaker 1:You know, from painting to sculpture, to prints, photography, performance, dance which a lot of people don't really know, his performance and dance stuff that spanned over, you know, 60 years, you know, and he really jumped onto the scene during the abex movement but is kind of known as a neodotist, as a pop artist, worked in what a lot of people call combines, which are like assemblage art, big collages, three dimensional stuff, black Mountain College in North Carolina, working under Joseph Albers, to collaborators with John Cage, the composer, to his dear friend Scyth Wombly, and then, of course, just the dialogue that he and Jasper Johns really shaped in their time together and their friendship is probably what most artists really recognize as that relationship with he and Jasper Johns and the way that they really influenced each other in each other's studios and sharing studios and back and forth, and just that relationship of a true artist, peer right, that is so influential.
Speaker 1:In all you do you run the ideas by and they critique your work, your constant dialogue on how to grow and how to change and how to develop, and you know, both of those guys were in that realm of you know, I'm not going to be thinking up ideas, I'm just going to work, work, work, work, work, work. And when I can't ignore something, I'm just going to dive into it full force, right, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I think I definitely in learning more about Rauschenberg and I watched a couple of documentaries and and couple up as many interviews on on YouTube as I could find but I definitely, you know, I feel a kinship with his philosophy and just approach to the art making process and you know, almost everything that I've read or heard him say is like, oh yeah, you know, and he speaks. You mentioned this when we were, when we were preparing, but you know, he speaks so eloquently and poetically. It's there's so many just gems. You know that that that we've got to mine, so we'll probably probably share a couple more of those as we go through here today. But, yeah, it's interesting. I mean just in kind of breaking this one down, that there's there's so much just in this one quote.
Speaker 2:But I think you know, just going in kind of chronological order, I think that that at the time I'm bored, or understand, and using those two words interchangeably, you know that's something for me that like immediately, just you know, yes, you know that I get that. You know completely. Like you know understanding, you know is is boring, or when you get to a certain point and as somebody who's, you know, very, very easily bored and very easily distracted. You know, it seems to me that, and like you, like you said, the looking at his body of, of work over his career and all the different, you know, mediums that he expressed himself, I mean, that's pretty evident, you know, in his approach to to work. But I think about, like, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this too, but I personally don't have any interest in mastery, you know, and it seems as though he really didn't either, if you think about that whole you know, zen, buddhist concept of, like, you know, having the beginner's mind. You know, in fact there's a quote that came to mind as I was thinking about our conversation today.
Speaker 2:I wanted to share, and this is from I'm going to mispronounce it probably butch and shunriyo Suzuki In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few. I'm sure you've heard that before too. But you know, you think about Rauschenberg and you know he certainly seems to have had that beginner's mind approach. You know, the whole way through meaning that, or my interpretation being, you know, once he, once he starts to understand something, he gets bored. You know, is interested in pursuing, you know, expert level at any one thing, it's onto the next. It's continuing to sort of foster that that you know fresh eyes and beginner's mind approach to his process.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we create things out of necessity, right? And so it's like that beginner's mind is nothing's off limits, right? The person who leaves the beginner and starts to become more advanced kind of focuses more in on, like what you said, mastery. Okay, I got to use the best oil paints now and so I don't go. I don't invent things because I don't have necessity, right? I don't have this forced thing upon me that I have to use coffee this week because I cannot afford to go out and buy brown or burnt sienna to use my painting.
Speaker 1:So, it's like, and I was watching in another interview with with Rauschenberg late last night and he talked about you know. The question was you know, why did you use so many random things in your work? And he said well, you know economy. Yeah, that's why I did it. You know, I started doing these things because I didn't have the money, so I lost my car. You know, he says in this interview with Leo Castelli, his art dealer and friend, as he says I lost my car and so I had a blanket that was over my car that kept the radiator warm and the winter when it was cold, and so I used that blanket to paint on, you know, and I think Leo said that's mine, I have that, you know he said oh yeah, you do have that.
Speaker 1:That is yours, you know and so. But as like necessities, like I use the towel to paint on and create on. Have you ever tried to use a towel? It's hard, it's hard.
Speaker 2:The uh, that also takes away the board from that same conversation. The mattress, yeah, yeah, exactly what was the concept it was. It's what, oh, I had around, right, what I had around.
Speaker 1:The mother of invention, yeah, Yep Economy is why I started, and I think those conversations give you permission to use whatever the heck you want when you're working Right.
Speaker 1:And I do that, like, I run out of certain things and I go okay, how in the world can I convey this message? Um, okay, let's use cardboard. Let's, what do I have in the studio around me that I could bring into this piece and make sense of it? And that helps me not get too bored as well. Yeah, totally Right, because I've gone back and looked at old series of work and gone. Man, I really liked the direction I was going there. Why am I not doing that anymore? And I go oh well, because it was done. Right, I got bored. Yeah, right. So that same part where he says I work in a direction until I know how to do it. Yeah, then I stop. Yeah, if you keep working in the direction you know how to do, you're never going to grow and your works are just going to be boring.
Speaker 2:Well, there's so much excitement that comes from you know, as a, I mean I love working with anything I can pretty much get my hands on.
Speaker 2:There's so much excitement that comes from just a new material and not knowing how it's going to behave. Right, just being like we'll see how this goes, we'll see what type of marks this makes and how, you know, everything interacts. You know that was another quote of his I wanted to bring up so perfect Introduction to that. But you know he said I mostly work in trash. This is from that same interview, by the way. We'll link it in the description. But fantastic interview, that's on YouTube here. But I mostly work in trash and I love this. The idea of a beautiful piece of silk or beautiful color consumed with its own vanity didn't interest me. Isn't that great, like you know this, the idea that this material a beautiful piece of silk or a beautiful color, consumed with its own vanity, in other words, I mean the way I read that is like you know something that's already inherently beautiful, just not interesting. So not just that whole idea of working with you know so many different different materials and trash is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, if you've been to a museum, especially in America, you've come across a Rauschenberg piece, whether you realize it or not, right, you've either come across a collage, large or small, or you've come across one of his combines, one of his assemblage pieces. And as you're saying that you know, I think about the quote where he says, you know, painting relates to both art and life either can be made. But I act in the gap between the two and that when I see his work, I think that because some of my favorite pieces, you know they may have a ladder that's attached to the, to the combine, or a chair and then a towel and then color and things, and it's almost as if he was in his room and he was looking around or, you know, walked out the door to the trash can and saw this ladder. So it's like he's combining this gap of life, what exists, what's out there, what is tangible, but then kind of his life as he's piecing together. You know his philosophy behind his work and how he lives and how he interacts with the city, with things that are created and made, and how he kind of brings those two together.
Speaker 1:And I really, the more you watch Rauschenberg talk. He's a very, he's a processor, right, he's not a fastbocker, not a quick. He doesn't relay information right away. You know there's plenty of moments and interviews where he disappears for a minute and you're like it's a little awkward, where's he going? And sometimes the interviewer doesn't realize it and starts to talk and then all of a sudden Rauschenberg comes in with a full force. You know like he catches his moment and I think when I see his work, I feel that that there's this deep philosophy of processing each thing that he's doing, each piece that he puts on. There is this slow, thought out process of that combination of life and art.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you remind me of that. The interview with Charlie Rose, that's actually quite. I don't know if you watch that one, but it's pretty awkward. I haven't seen that one yet. And Charlie Rose, a masterful interviewer who's interviewed, you know, thousands of people from all walks of life and backgrounds, but he never quite got the pacing down Because right as Rauschenberg was about to sort of bring it home or catch that next wave, as he put it, like Charlie Rose is just trying to pull out the next thing.
Speaker 2:But I like that you said that that definitely does speak to the sort of intentionality around his ideas. And that's kind of the next part, as we kind of work through this chronologically, I guess, is just, I love the whole idea of appetite and I wanted to talk about that a little bit. Like you know, another appetite has formed. So this is something where you know, as a recovering addict myself and knowing you know his struggles with alcohol and his struggles to get sober later in life, I think there's something about that appetite for more that you happen to have that particular background, you know or not, but I think that's something that a lot of artists share. We can call it, you know, sort of that insatiable curiosity you know of. Oh, I wonder, you know what if?
Speaker 1:what if this?
Speaker 2:you know, and I think that when you're open and when you're curious which I think is probably one of the most common characteristics that you know creatives of all types you know probably have is just that curiosity. But I think when you're open to that extent the way he certainly was you know the appetite, you know forms on its own right. It's not something that he has to conjure up.
Speaker 1:Yep Well, and he says you make art, you are art, you live art, you do art, you are doing what no one can stop you doing Art is your life. If you are an artist and you make art and you're making a lot of it, that appetite continues to grow and grow and grow the more that you make it. Because the more you make it, the more you go look at it. Right, the more you go look at it, the more you start to read about it. And then you just become that, that art nerd, that self-proclaimed art historian.
Speaker 1:We're all elitist as artists, whether we like to admit it or not. I'll admit it all the time I'm an elitist as an artist. I like what I like, I don't like what I don't like, and I study like crazy and I work like crazy. But for me, that appetite is I know why Rothscherberg had such a wide range of mediums Because when you're creating, you start thinking well, what could it be in this element? How can I take it to this element? How can I take this to this element? I don't know if I believe that he's not the person who tries to think up ideas that he says. A lot of people try to think up ideas, and I'm not one man. If you're an artist, you're ideating like crazy. That new modern word that isn't really in the dictionary Ideation it's become a word. You're ideating all the time.
Speaker 2:It's one of my strength finders by the way. So thanks for bringing that up.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it Absolutely, and so it's like for me now that I'm trying to go more three to men. I started out in sculpture and ceramics. I moved into painting and have just been painting for a long time. But then I've been doing sculpture here and there, not a lot but small bodies of sculptures and things.
Speaker 1:But the more I paint, the more I'm saying how do I get my work more into the room than just flat on the wall? Yeah, right, so thinking through, how can I do that with canvas? Can I fold it? Can I crumple it Right? Can I bring it off the painting more? Okay, now how do I get it into the floor? How do I have these things I'm working on, these ideas I have and these stories I'm telling? How do I get them into more space? So I can totally see Roshenberg wanting to move into performance and dance, wanting to move into sculpture and all these ideas and all these things that he has in his artist makeup. How can I now bring them even more into the audience's senses than just flat on a wall? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Totally does, yeah, and thinking about too, how you know I mean a career of his length and magnitude. He tried a lot of different things. You know a lot of them worked.
Speaker 2:A lot of them maybe didn't right, Like his photography that he did later in his career was something he clearly had a passion for and loved, you know, with all the travels that he did around, the sort of humanitarian efforts that he was engaged in. But everything leads to the next thing, right, and I think that's what's interesting is that, you know, maybe all of the whatever let's just use an example those stills may not have been elite, he never set out to be great at that but that then led to the next thing, or was informed by everything you know, sort of that came before it. I'm gonna disagree with you on something.
Speaker 2:I actually believe him when he says that he doesn't try to think up ideas Like I believe that somebody like that, the ideas just sort of come you know what I mean Like there's, their ideas are present, right. So we're kind of, we're kind of, you know, splitting hairs a little bit. But I think that there's a difference between I mean, when I, when I read that sentence, a lot of people try to think of ideas, I'm not one I think of him sort of referring to somebody who's like, all right, you know, pen and a pad, let me, let me try to, you know, let me try to figure it, figure this out and sort of engineer right Conjure, yeah, exactly, yeah, as opposed to just being open.
Speaker 2:And something else he talks about is how he doesn't really know what he's gonna do, you know before, but he's disciplined to continue to work right A reoccurring theme of a lot of the quotes and and things that we discuss here. But anyway, I believe him. I believe him when he says that that they just sort of come, as opposed to having to generate them, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, and maybe that's the the wording too A lot of people try to think up ideas. Maybe it's a lot of people try to conjure and invent ideas, right, right, because I definitely I mean, I know my ideas are listed in, you know, the 50 journals that I'm constantly writing down every idea I have. So don't forget stuff, because I forget stuff, right, like stories, books finished my first novel this year, you know. So it's like I've got all these things I want to do and I think, too, like I want to encourage all the artists out there listening, like, don't let your ideas hold you back. Right, because I know there are plenty of painters who want to sculpt, plenty of sculptors who want to paint, plenty of artists who are like I've got an idea for a film, short, right, I've got an idea I'd love to write, I'd love to. It's like no, don't not do that. Like, find ways to create as much as you can create right in your time that you have here on this earth. You know, and life is short, like we know that. You know that very well just from stories in your life. Life is short and that's, you know, it's one of the reasons why you decided I got to make this jump and be a full time artist and make art in the time that I have.
Speaker 1:Don't let those things hold you back. Right, like I love you know. He says. I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore. Yeah, if those ideas are just crushing your head and you cannot ignore them, figure out a way to make it. Figure out a way to do it. And today we have tools to do just about anything. Yeah, you want to make music? You want to make soundscapes? You want to make a short? Like, you could use your phone to do all those things. Right, it's so much easier today than in 1950. Yeah, right, where it's a little more difficult to have this broad range of things that you're creating, I say find a way to go for it.
Speaker 2:There's never been a better time to be a generalist as opposed to the specialist. You know that say. I don't know if we've talked about this before. It probably be a good quote to discuss at some point. But there's a really, really great book that I got a lot from as I was considering, you know, transitioning, but it's a book called the Range, by David Epstein, I think is the name of the author.
Speaker 2:But anyway, the basic premise is that it's the generalist who has a taste or a broad range of experiences and backgrounds that can sort of find the intersection, you know, and pick out some of those. You know novel uses for you know concepts that make a ton of sense and other spaces, and so you think about from a creative standpoint, from a artistic standpoint. It just kind of makes sense that the more things you try, even if you're not great at that thing, like I love videography, I love photography, I may or may not ever try to do anything you know that I put out in the world, apart from just you know, filming myself, making art and taking pictures. You know, but that's like just as an example, my understanding of my basic understanding of lighting, you know from a film. Or you know, photography standpoint, you know, certainly informs the way that I, you know, use light. Everything, you know, one hand washes the other. Everything leads to the next thing, you know, and I think that that's a really yeah, that last part that you talked about, you know, just the, I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore, and so I don't know for sure, I mean the fact that he was, you know, an addict and struggled with that.
Speaker 2:That was, that's documented. I don't know for sure if he's also ADD or ADHD, as I identify, but that's a very like ADD sort of thing to say. Right, the irresistible possibilities, you know, and that's I mean personally again, like why, why I feel a spirit to so many of his philosophies and ways of thinking, is they are irresistible, you know, like it's really. It's really, and I think that's probably a characteristic, the more I've had a chance to get to know and, you know, learn about other artists. That seems to be another common thread that not everybody shares, but certainly just an excitement of the mundane or the easily distractibility of, oh, I wonder, wonder about this or I wonder about that, that he certainly had. There's a quote that that's another one of his that I wanted to share kind of along this same vein. But he said I really feel sorry for people who think things like soap dishes or mirrors or Coke bottles are ugly because they're surrounded by things like that all day long and it must make them miserable.
Speaker 1:But I think that's just a fantastic quote. Yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's like back kind of back to that whole you know idea of not necessarily wanting to work with materials that already had a you know we're already beautiful inherently, you know, necessarily, or considered, you know, to fill in or, you know, meet the standard definition of beauty. You know, but, but that's just one of those things. You know that they're that when you're, when you're willing to, you know, chase your curiosity and try different. I mean, that's one of the things. You know, I shared this with you the other day.
Speaker 2:But you know how we got to know each other and originally meet with me, you know, being in your mentorship program, that was one of the biggest things that attracted me and I was like I want to apply.
Speaker 2:You know, I want to, I want to learn from this guy, because I looked at your body of work and I looked at the diversity of materials and mediums and different things that you'd worked and I said, okay, this is somebody who you know can, definitely who I can learn a lot from, because I, you know, I'm still, I'm still figuring things out, you know. But one thing I know for sure is that I'm never going to be, you know, the artist that finds one thing and just, you know, does that one and no, does that one thing you know indefinitely. No disrespect to people that have found their thing and mine, that you know indefinitely, but that's I know for sure. That's not going to, you know, be me. So anyway, I just, I love hearing Roshenberg talk about, you know, roshenberg talk about just the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore because to me that's a really empowering thing to realize.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, what was back to the ADD thing, what was a limitation to me, you know, certainly in other areas of life, is actually a tremendous strength that can be leveraged, you know, especially in this creative space.
Speaker 1:Going back to you just talking about, you know, my bodies of work and things and just from a studio perspective, I really identify with what Robert Roshenberg says in that that first part of working in the direction until I know how to do it and then I stop when I. When I first heard him say that, you know I really it hit home for me because I don't know how I got to that point, maybe because I just spent so much time when I really went full time in the studio to study and listening and watching and learning from, as I call them, my dead peers from the past. And you know I really Made that a part of my practice. It just became part of I wouldn't say I made it, it became part of it. I will jump in on a direction and I will go full force and make 20, 30 paintings, you know, in that direction, each one hopefully growing after the next, and you know a lot of them. Failures to them, successes Very few. Great Few, hopefully some those are all.
Speaker 1:Something no that's perfect.
Speaker 1:You know, that's the support we need from our, from our artist peers. But all of a sudden, I get to this point where, like Bobby says he's bored or understands it, I either go you know what time for the next thing, I'm over this or, oh my gosh, I understand where I'm going and I'm not there yet. So it's got switch, it's got him, it's got a change and now develop this way, even though it didn't work that way. And so it's, like you know, understanding using those interchangeably right Board doesn't mean it's not working Right. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Board means I've used up all that I have to give within this, and it's taking me to this place now, and now I'm able to go with this place and keep so you kind of mentioned it, but I think it'd be be valuable for For you to talk a little bit more about how does one keep oneself from getting from feeling like they have to stay in a certain you know lane Right, because maybe it comes more naturally to some you know than others, but there is sort of a certain you know, there are some external pressures To you know, to get Figure out your thing and then and then just do that thing right.
Speaker 1:For most of us, this is the most exciting time to be an artist, you know, and that emerging or beginning stages because you don't have those pressures. You have your own personal, un unneeded pressures of performing for Instagram or performing for, you know, social media or what you think is. You know, watching you in the invisible shadows in your studio or your wherever you work. If you find success In the art world and by success I don't mean being rich, I mean by having work that is being seen and shown in galleries and things like that and selling here and there there's gonna be a pressure that's gonna settle in to perform or to Continue to create that thing which is selling. Right, you sell three paintings that have similar feels.
Speaker 1:A lot of artists get then stuck in the trap and I'm not saying that this is wrong. If an artist decides oh, I'm gonna continue to do this because I can make money, because, gosh, we're in this because we love, but we also need to make money doing it, we can't just, you know, flail at the wind and not make any money with our work. So you know there is that, that pressure that will come of I. I need to continue to create this, to sell work and you can fall on a major trap of just doing that and then getting stuck there and not leaving it. And I have plenty of artist friends who get to that point and are very unhappy with life, yeah, and studio time, because they're performing and they're having to create what selling rather than creating their new ideas and the new experiments and in really growing beyond where they were and a lot of them get bored with it.
Speaker 1:I mean, imagine, and you know the times when you're working on something in your board. Imagine if that was your nine to five every day, right for a year, creating work that you're bored with. We I mean we've lost so many artists to suicide in the past because that becomes a debilitating mental pressure on top of the things that we experience as artists as well in our solitude. So, yeah, be be really careful. If I think I mean it's interesting too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you know, one of the things that I think is so inspiring about just the opportunity to to be an artist is is the the lifespan of. I mean, apart from you know, I mean obviously lifestyle choices and, you know, playing to that. But you see so many artists that that that continue working I mean most right until until they die, and that's not the kind of thing I mean if you think about a more whatever nine to five or traditional. You know career or job path, you know we're sprinting for that finish line like man. As soon as 66 and a half or whatever number, as soon as I can get that Pinch, that retirement, since I don't have to do this, this crap that I don't love doing on a daily basis, I'm done.
Speaker 2:You know art should never, should never be that, should never be that way. And of course there's gonna be mundane aspects of the day to day like I freaking hate. You know, cleaning up and organizing and and all of the stuff around. You know emails and whatever, all the stuff that goes along with just, you know, being a professional at whatever you're trying to do, but the work itself, you know, should, for the most part really energize you. You know, and I think it's evident in in Rauschenberg's work that you know he was excited to keep creating.
Speaker 2:You know, as as long as you live.
Speaker 1:When it's. You know, it's funny to me to always think back to going. Yeah, but he had Jasper Johns inside to Wombly in his studio every day, right and so. But you're like, but wait, not many people knew who they were at that point. Yeah, maybe they.
Speaker 1:You know we're in Betty Parsons gallery and getting you know some big shows and things, but this, the way they're remembered today, Is nowhere near how people viewed them then. Right, and so you think about you know yourself as a young artist and you know we'll always say we're not talking age, we're not talking young as 20, like, we're talking Work. Young artists, immature, mature. They were young artists then. Right, they were immature in their work. They're feeding off of each other. And here you have Jasper Johns, side to Wombly, and Robert Rauschenberg who are in each other studios, traveling the world together. You know, discussing thing, I mean some of my favorite photographs of side to Wombly, the black and white piece. You know, photographs were Pictures that Rauschenberg took in Rome, so it's like, that's like they were. They're in the same place that we're in Right today when you're visiting your buddy studio or your girlfriend studio or your friend studio and you're hanging out together and doing these things like yeah, we're doing that.
Speaker 1:But yet, because we know them now in our history, we look back and what, are you kidding me? They had no idea they were gonna be where they are today. No idea, but they stayed with it, kept working, kept experimenting. I mean I've been in rare form this week in the studio, like. I mean I've been dancing and just like so, full of joy, creating.
Speaker 1:And I've had A couple monumental failures and experiments in the last week, like monumental working with trying to work with ash and acrylics and make texture and it didn't bond well and it all cracked. Great when it was wet and it looked fantastic, but it all cracked and it's all. So they're done right there. I may hold on to my, may toss them, I don't know, but I still just been in the state of joy and just, you know, lou reed cranked up to eleven and dancing in the studio and just having a blast, you know, ton of bowie records on and just like enjoying life. But then there are the moments that there's the weeks where it's just like I feel like I way, you know, have six hundred pounds of lead on my shoulders when I walk in the studio and I'm dragging my feet and Not knowing what to do, and so it's funny you mentioned bowie.
Speaker 2:I was just. I just last night I rewatched the life aquatic with steve zee, sue, oh yeah, west anderson, yep, and I got. I've been on the west anderson kick because I have you seen the french dispatch yet? No, not yet the new one. It's definitely a lot, lot, lot of art references. Yeah, in one section in particular. That's just fantastic.
Speaker 1:But this the sale or hey bowie covers and the for quality.
Speaker 2:so Just so good so maybe think of that. Yep, I'm talking about your time in the studio. This, this reminds me something.
Speaker 2:You had a chance to obviously be with you for a couple days and visit your studio couple months ago, having seen a lot of work of course, you know on on a screen online, but I've been a chance to really get my nose in it and see it, and you got some work there from from different periods, which is really cool.
Speaker 2:You know some from from quite quite some time ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this because you've been at this a lot longer than I have something you said earlier and feel free to correct me because I'm gonna miss, you know whatever, quote you, but you said something to the effect of you know, once I take something to a certain point and then I decide to you know, move on from, from that, but you don't forget, right, like I'm gonna make a statement and then I'm gonna put it to you as a question, but like I'm guessing to tell me you know true or false, but I'm guessing you don't forget the things that you've tried, the things that you've worked, because I'm not only do you have your journals, but you got all the work to look at and say, oh yeah, that's what I did, you know with with that and you can always sort of pick up wherever you may have left off, even if it was Multiple years or series. You know beforehand, right like there's always gonna be, that through line. Other words, you've already acquired that, it's in your, it's in your, your arsenal, so to speak. Is that? Is that true?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I, you know, I spend a lot of time really listening and talking to the work to and really taking mental inventory of things while I'm working on it, before, before, after, during, you know. And there are times like I just moved a lot of my work that I have in my studio storage. I moved it from the front half to the back half this last week. So going back while I'm moving each piece, you know, and thinking through when I made it, why I made it, why does that not hold any anything today compared to them? Why am I not? You know, and there are certain pieces ago can't believe I did that, but I'm glad I did, and there are other pieces I go, oh, interesting. Okay, you know what I mean and and I have that inventory come up in the story and you know why I was doing it.
Speaker 1:But the work that you make in the past isn't for not, it's all important. It doesn't matter how shitty it is or how really strong it may be. It all has a place and it all has a purpose. Yeah, not only is that your personal history, that's your timeline, right? Art intersects with life Period. There's no way anybody can say it doesn't, it does. So it's also your life story that you're looking at in the past to, and I'm constantly going back and looking at work. You know, and I think it's a measure for me, it's just a measuring to of wow, I really have grown yeah, I really have grown from this from 2014 or 2016, 2017, and I go, man, I made a lot of work. I think that's one thing I always look back on and I'm always think I can make that much work this year. Man, I have I even been doing anything?
Speaker 1:and then all of a sudden, I look at my inventory, listen, I go, whoa yeah I made a lot more work than I thought I did, which I think is a good thing, because it means that mentally I'm so focused on what I'm doing I'm not really realizing the output. Yeah, because I'm just constantly accepting those irresistible possibilities of things I can't ignore and I'm just rolling with work Way to bring a full circle.
Speaker 2:well done, you know that.
Speaker 2:that's one thing to that that you definitely help me with was, um, I think I'm sure we'll talk about some some Austin clion quotes at some point, but just the idea of sharing your work, but whether or not you choose to share it, you know I've become a big proponent for capturing video, um you know, again, whether or not you're gonna, you know, post it or share, but man, that's, that's like game, though I'm I posted about this recently, but I was really thinking about like, alright, I was re, re, re editing a video that I'd done and in preparation for a series that I'm starting, where I had experimented with a lot of new material. You know, like taking the you know the burnt pallets and Dipping them in in in resin and trying to figure out how it's all gonna gonna work out. And I'm not somebody who's like my process is far from scientific. While I'm doing it, I'm not freaking, taking notes and measurements. You know to me, yeah, but when you've got that, that game film right, like you know, athletes, you know, they watch a lot of game film.
Speaker 2:You know they watch back what worked, what didn't okay, let's do more. What work hey, let's not do what, yeah, didn't work. And what does it look like, what does it feel like? You know, in in both, both camps. But you know having that available, in addition to, of course, the work in the journals. But people watch back and say, okay, cool, because that for me, like as I'm chasing down those Irresistible possibilities that in many cases, just sort of, like you know, occur in the moment that I didn't have the end out. I mean or or or anticipated. That's really valuable, because I think that that then lends itself to be able to carry that forward Into, you know, future work, if you do indeed want to try, and, you know, replicate something that actually, you know did indeed work.
Speaker 1:We have plenty of tools we can use today to Be your own encyclopedias, right as often clon says, be a documentary of what you do gather, gather, gather, store, store, store and then run it through a checklist of Is this worth sharing? Is it not worth sharing? Could it be worth sharing? You know, and really I film for a lot of reasons. You know, I'm kind of a I don't know how to word it an idiot dreamer. I guess it's like well, if I make it someday and somebody wants to make a documentary in my life story and art, they're gonna have a ton of video to choose from, you know.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm a big dreamer, though on a level that I feel like I don't know. I mean, I was born a dreamer, I'm always dreaming things, but I mean it Deep inside. You know, I want to be really great at what I do, whether I'm recognized or not. Right, it's like I could be, we all could have that chance to be recognized someday for what we create. A lot of us Will, not very few of us will. Man, I sure want to be that will, and so that just drives me right. It drives me to create and to keep pushing, to keep going, whether I'm recognized or not, for myself Right, for my own sanity, for my own confidence, I'm gonna drive myself to the ground, working as hard as I can to try and be, hopefully that someday I don't know where I mean listen, we don't know where we're gonna fall we, we don't make the decisions of the art world right. We're so far removed from the decision-makers that that it's insane. But I do believe that if you work your ass off and you continually Put time and effort into growing and experimenting and trying to find something in there and you put it out To the world and as many opportunities and ways that you can today, there's a chance. You're giving yourself a lot more chance to be recognized or be found. If you're not putting it out there. Totally. Yeah, you know, it's the.
Speaker 1:In that conversation of the video, the, the interview we watch with Leo Castelli, the interviewer asked how did you get into the Betty Parsons gallery? Yeah, right. And he says oh, oh well, I walked in there with all my heart and and I said to, hey, betty, and she said I only look at work on Tuesdays, or something like that. He goes well, I'm here. And she looked at his work and would you be willing to?
Speaker 2:pretend it's a Tuesday, right right.
Speaker 1:So it's like bold heat. You know that doesn't work today. Don't do that. Please don't do that. Artists, if you're listening that, don't do that. But the boldness, right, like that boldness of I'm going to Take my art to the people that notice art, right, right, we have a lot of different ways we can do that today, intelligently, not like the dumb artist Sorry if I've just tabbed any of you listening. I mean, don't go into the gallery, don't go find the gallery owner and Tell the mirror artist and ask if you can bring your art in from your car, yeah, unless they invite you to do that, right, and and maybe we'll have an entire episode just discussing those things Down down the road with some with some good quotes about how to how to actually do that.
Speaker 2:Well, I like that, though, as a as we kind of wrap up and and bring things into the more sort of tangible takeaway, you know category. Just that I'm just thinking about what we're doing right now, just like we have no idea if anyone's gonna be interested in, I mean, as as of recording, we have not posted anything left. So, yeah, we have no idea if anyone's gonna be interested in this or if we're gonna be able to, whatever, if this is gonna go anywhere. But it's worth trying. We both enjoy having conversations about art and are willing to put it out there and just kind of see what happens, right?
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think that irresistible possibility I mean, if I were, I'll Turn over you in a moment for last, last thoughts here but I think if I had one, it would be Just just encouraging. You know, anybody who's, who's got a desire to do anything creative, like, keep chasing down those Irresistible possibilities of what you can't ignore, and don't be afraid, you know, to try things that that may not ever work, because, as we've discussed this entire episode, you just never know. You know what's gonna hit, what's gonna kind of light that fire at night. Then the next thing, that could be the thing Right, even if the thing you're doing at that moment may not end up being quote-unquote, it, it's gonna, it's, it's all, it's all positive momentum, you know, in the direction that you're trying to go.
Speaker 1:Well and yeah, and to piggyback on that, make your own opportunities. You can make your own opportunities before Opportunities are created for you. Yeah, you know, do a house show. You know I, I did a house show here locally last year with a group of friends of mine. Two incredible female artists put on a house show of friends of ours and she, you know they had worked, emptied out the house, had work in the house, had work in the garage, set up a great area of people to hang out in the middle in between. You know, it was just such a fan I mean oh, I will do a house show any day of the week.
Speaker 1:There's nothing more enjoyable than just hanging out with people and talking about art in a non-pressure filled environment when it's literally just focused on the art, nothing else. Yeah, it's not focused on work selling, not focusing on is the press gonna write a good Stories? You know what I mean? It's like just fun, you know, drinking wine, sitting outside, talking about your work, talking about the other artists, work, meeting people you don't know from timing. Create your own opportunities. You can. You know I, you know I say this all the time to everybody like Show, work, show, work, show, work, show, work, show, work. Doesn't matter where it is cafe, restaurant, gallery. One of my one of my men, former mentees had her first solo show In Germany and she approached a restaurant hey, can I do a show? They said yes, and she had a solo show. Doesn't matter if it's a restaurant, doesn't matter where it is it's?
Speaker 1:a show. A show is a show is a show. Fill that resume out. Create your own, your own opportunities. Do something fun. Go set up work at a park and invite all your friends and do an outdoor show to park like. Create your opportunities. You can't, you can do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And then back to what we said before too right, there's never been a better time, you know. There's never been fewer, you know. Yeah sticking points or gatekeepers, to like. We didn't have to ask anybody's permission to start making a podcast. We don't again, right. No idea if anyone's gonna be interested in listening to it or watching it, but nothing prevented us from trying.
Speaker 1:I mean you know and starting it, and just you and I do this. Yeah, we do this on a regular basis, anyways, on the phone, so it's like or by text message hey, you see this quote. Hey, we watch this interview, so why not just talk about it and see if anybody else is interested? That's it.
Speaker 2:That's it, that's awesome, I think that's uh. That wraps it up for me, unless you have anything else you want to close out with Nope go make smart Love it. See y'all next time.