Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Part 3. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Part 3. Diving deep into Jerry Saltz's "How to Be an Artist," we explore the transformative journey of learning to think like an artist. This episode unpacks the beautiful paradox that while art remains unchanged physically, it's never the same when we experience it – as Saltz writes, "an unchanging thing that is never the same." We discuss how becoming a "seeing machine" develops your artistic eye, examining artwork up close, questioning materials and processes, and truly noticing rather than merely looking.
One of the most powerful concepts we explore is embracing artistic inconsistency. When Saltz writes, "Don't resist something if you're afraid it's taking you far afield from your usual direction. That's the wild animal in you feeding," he reminds us that creative evolution requires following our instincts even when they lead us into unfamiliar territory. This is how artists avoid becoming creatively caged – by allowing ourselves to experiment freely.
The conversation takes a particularly meaningful turn when discussing courage as "a desperate gamble that will place you in the arms of creative angels." We examine how artists throughout history, from Alice Neel to Ellsworth Kelly, displayed remarkable bravery by pursuing their unique visions despite working against prevailing movements of their time. Their courage to follow their intuitive logic ultimately led to extraordinary contributions to art history.
Perhaps most reassuringly, we break down Saltz's practical insight that an artist's career can be sustained by surprisingly few supporters – just one dedicated dealer, a handful of collectors, and a few critics or curators who understand the work. The challenge lies in putting yourself out there consistently, showing up at exhibitions, and actively participating in the art community.
What will you discover about your own creative process by training yourself to see differently? How might embracing your artistic inconsistencies lead to unexpected breakthroughs? Join us as we continue our exploration of what it truly means to be an artist in today's world.
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Starting Part Three: Learning to Think Like an Artist
Speaker 1Hey , nathan , I've got your gift you sent me . The first time you went to the Clifford Steele Museum , you bought me this shirt and gave it to me . Remember that ? Yes , I do .
Speaker 2I recognize it as soon as you hopped on . Yeah , I got a little cliff on here today , you know , and I think that's good .
Speaker 1It's good because we're moving into part three of Jerry's how to be an artist by Jerry salts , that we keep reading and reading and reading , and you know Clifford's reminding me today , as we move into step three , learning to think like an artist . You know , got some lessons from Clifford . We have a Clifford still episode that's out from , I think , a year ago , maybe a little bit longer , where you were actually in the Clifford Still museum recording . So if any of you have not seen that episode , I highly suggest it because the background is absolutely not that I don't love your background right now . Nathan , with your work behind you , it looks like you were set up for a studio visit or something .
Speaker 2I was . I had , um , I've had eight people come through this week , Wow , heck , yeah , yeah . So we took that opportunity to do a full studio reset and uh spend some time doing the shit work , as you like to call it of just cleaning house . Yes , my uh , my in-house staff , which comprised of my oldest daughter and her boyfriend , uh , and my wife God bless her . She came in as well and uh and helped , helped as well .
Speaker 2So all hands on deck , and it's , uh , as spiffy as it's been in quite some time . Speaking of gifts , though , I uh , before you hop in here , I do have something else I picked up for you in New York as well . It's not quite as cool as a shirt , but uh , you'll get . You'll get that in the mail sometime between a week from now and eight months .
Speaker 1Love it .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , I love this section and the subtitle is this is the fun part . So learning to think like an artist , this is the fun part , so let's have some fun .
Speaker 1Let's do it . Where do you want to start ? Let's start with you . What do you got ?
Speaker 2Okay , let's just start on the first one . All art is subjective , jerry writes . What does subjective mean ? It means that , though the text never changes , every person who sees Hamlet sees a different play . Moreover , every time you see Hamlet , you see a different play . This is the case with almost all good art it's always changing . Every time you see it anew .
Speaker 2You think how did I miss that before ? Yeah , I'm going to share a quick story and then I'll open it up to your thoughts on this one . But we were and I'm probably going to reference my trip to New York with our youngest daughter , ella , that we took last week a couple of times here because we saw a lot of art while we were there . But she wants to pursue theater after high school , so it was a very Broadway heavy , uh , excursion , went to six shows in five days , but she really wanted to see wicked on on Broadway and I had seen wicked on Broadway , I think probably I don't even know maybe 12 , 13 years ago , something like that .
Speaker 2And I said afterwards she asked me . She said well , how was it ? How did this compare to the first time you saw it ? And I said I can't say exactly why , I don't know if I just wasn't paying attention or what , but I felt like I watched that show for the very first time . Yeah , because there were so many different things that just jumped out at me , and so his example of using Hamlet as a play just kind of brought that memory to mind . But it's just a very recent example of how something can be completely different , something very similar or the same in the case of a physical piece of art , can hit us in a very different way depending upon where we're at or how much time has passed since we first saw it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean I have this experience every time I'm at the Twombly Museum in Houston that we've referenced and talked about before .
Speaker 1It's one of my favorite museums on the planet and it's three hours down the road , so I'm there quite a bit , but every time I'm in there I spend a lot of time sitting with my journal and writing about the work and really as we'll talk about in a few minutes really looking like , looking , looking and then and so many things .
Speaker 1You know the time of day I come in the way that the museum set up , the way that he had a specific sail maker create , uh , basically an awning over uh windows in the ceiling . Yeah , so he has these awnings that are over skylights and so the way that the light moves through those awnings they're basically sails changes the depth of the pieces and the colors throughout the day , no matter if the sun's high , low , whatever . So anytime I'm in there , it's just fun , at different times , to see how these pieces , for me , take a whole new light and just bring so much more wonder and questions and asking about why and how and all those things . And I mean that's what I love . It's just it's never the same , it's always different .
Speaker 2It's just that idea of like . No one ever steps in the same river twice . You know , we're certainly different , as is , as is the river . Jerry goes on to write art is an unchanging thing that is never the same , a static entity that somehow , whenever you experience it , seems to be inhabited by poltergeists , spontaneously generating new messages for you . And that's what you're describing and that's what I'm hearing , right ? It's like every time you sit with it , every time you spend time at the Twalmy Museum or anywhere else , you have that huh , you're seeing new things that have always been there , to Jerry's point , and I love the paradox and that little chunk of wisdom , unchanging thing that is never the same , right , you know , it is the same , that is the exact same , those are the same works that you saw , however many months or years previous , but it's . But it changes , right , it's never the same to us because we're in a different place , we're receiving it differently and it's hitting us in a different way in a different place . It's beautiful .
Speaker 1Yeah , and what effect should this have on your work ? He says , maybe just this let it take some of the weight off your shoulders , stop fiddling and move on . The work will keep changing itself . That's an interesting little statement there . Yeah , because we just talked about looking at work and seeing it . You know different each time . But also that quit just taking so much time to figure your piece out .
Speaker 1Right , think about it , do things , but you got to keep moving on to the next piece , the next one , the next one . You know , I left a voice message for one of my former mentees today who's really struggling with work , like nothing is just clicking , it's just , wants to white everything out , start again , and it's just . And I was , you know , and I told her . I said , listen , that's the game , you know , that's where we are today . That's being an artist . Right , learn to be an art , learn how to be an artist Like that's part of it .
Speaker 1This is slow , like I have no idea where the work's taking me right now . So many new things and new ideas that I'm putting into the work . I have no idea , but I've only been doing it for a few months , so it's like I'm I'm nowhere . I have to stop fiddling . I got to just keep rolling and rolling and rolling and moving on , knowing that it's , it's going to get somewhere eventually . But in art , time , which could mean a year , could mean two months , could mean two years . Right , that's what I love about . I mean Jack Whitten still . I mean he is inspiring me daily when I read him in the morning because he's if anybody figured out time , jack Whitten did , yeah , like he wrestled with time and knowing what it takes to put time , effort in over long spells to get where he wanted to go , yeah . And so every time I read it , I'm like , okay , I'm good . I just keep thinking , I'm like I'm okay . If Jack were in the studio with me , he'd say keep going , just keep going , don't stop , don't worry , don't fiddle , just keep moving on .
Speaker 2Well , you better not get me started on Jack Cause . That was one of the one of the music shows that we went to at MoMA , I know . Unless you want me to talk for 90 minutes straight and you just sit there and listen .
Speaker 1That'll be a future episode . Well you , jane . My friend Jane Dameron was just there . Frances Beattie was there . She met Jacqueline Gordian there . Alison Hudson was just there , I don't know how many friends . Oh yeah , v and Sam were just there . I mean everybody . I it's going and I don't have the ability to go .
Speaker 2I'm just like I'm dying inside , I think , unless you get on a plane when we wrap , I think I think it closes . It's about to close .
Speaker 1I know Fingers crossed that somebody else picks it up across the U ? S and it moves on to another location , but I haven't heard anything yet .
Speaker 2You know what we're talking about before it . Um , it reminds me of an idea that I was exposed to through , uh , different writings about the recovery space , but this idea of a new pair of glasses how , when our perspective on something changes , we have a completely new pair of glasses . In other words , we're looking at the same thing but the lens has changed . The lenses are different , right , the way we're perceiving it and how it's landing with us is going to be , you know , just just completely different , and I think that's a that's a really beautiful thing . To your point about our own work , I just shared the story of resetting the space .
Speaker 2I pulled out and just kind of set up a bunch of older work that I had just been kind of , you know , sitting around in in in storage for a long time , and that's always a fun experience . You know I've talked about this before , but it's always an interesting experience to now , you know , sit with Pete . In fact , I'm looking at one to my right here that I'd kind of set aside and , you know , not left for dead , but I decided at the time I didn't love , or maybe a year after it was made , I was like , ah yeah , that was something that I made and that's all right . But now you know different things . I can retroactively , you know , with the benefit of time , hindsight , 2020 , all that fun stuff can look back and say , wow , there was a lot . This was , this was really a Genesis piece in some different ways and there are some clues in here , some different threads to pull that had value going forward . Yeah .
Speaker 1Absolutely . And I love how he says on the next page when he talks about looking hard isn't just about looking long . Make yourself a seeing machine . I love that on the next page . I feel like I have really embraced being a seeing machine . Looking openly means allowing yourself to access new sources of visual interest . Just look at things , practice the openness and the world will go larger and richer
Art as an Unchanging Thing That Changes
Speaker 1around you . Like we talked about this in Montana too from the Mary Oliver poem . Like when we talk about noticing things not just looking at things , but really truly noticing things and be a scene machine . I just I love that .
Speaker 2Yeah , he closes out that section tie by writing train yourself to look deliberately and the mysteries of your taste , and I will become clearer to you . I'd like to hear you talk about that more , just this idea of how do we is there anything beyond just looking more and more intentionally that we can do to really , you know , develop our taste and our eye ? How does that become more clear over time ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I think for me it's looking and understanding and thinking about it , and so I think that's kind of what he's meaning here by make yourself a scene machine , like a machine isn't just like moving its eyes and looking at it , so there's a lot of moving parts that are happening within a machine . So , be a seeing machine , I'm looking at everything . I'm looking at . You know , we'll talk about this in a little bit . I look at art I don't like . I look at art that I love . I look at art that I don't understand or I can't grasp . I look at art that is either much better than me or worse than me , right , in my opinion , to get a grasp of all those things . And then I take it a step further after I do that . So , let's say , I see a piece in a museum or in a gallery and I'm wondering how , what is ? What are the materials they're using , right ? So I'm looking , I'm really looking , and then I , you know , I'm taking note of the materials and things , that I'm going home and I'm researching those materials . I'm taking note of the materials and things and I'm going home and I'm researching those materials and I'm looking at well , why is it ? Why did this , do this ? Why did this do this ? Oh well , shoot , I'm not going to use lead . It's like oh man , antony Tapp is that piece ? Why does it look that ? Oh , he used lead . Well , shoot , that's not a very safe taking it a step further . So that way , when I'm seeing , I'm starting to grasp reasons why these things are happening .
Speaker 1Yeah , and even looking at art , I don't like . I do the same thing . Okay , I don't like it . Why do I not like it ?
Speaker 1Then I think about it and I talked to myself about that piece . When I'm in front of it , what do I not like about it ? Okay , well , is there anything in here I do like ? And then I go back and I look up that artist and I research that artist and sometimes , once I read this artist's story and why they're making art and how they got where they are , things may shift and I may start to respect that artist and then , all of a sudden , in turn , respect the work . Now , that does something completely new in me , I think , as an artist , and I tell my artists all the time in my program if you're doing those things , it's going to inform you about your work way more than you've ever expected . Cause all that thinking and all that processing of these other artists that you like , don't like , question , wonder why , how they do ? Now you're taking all that information in and when you're in the studio working , that information is being processed because it exists now in your head and your subconscious and your foreconscious .
Speaker 2So it's , it's phenomenal advice for artists , but it's , it's a phenomenal little tidbit to give anyone who's looking at art . You know , I have a lot of just , you know friends who don't look at much art or don't have much context for what they might be seeing when they when they come by , yeah , and that's one of the first things I always say is you know , what do you like about it ? What don't you like about it ? I mean , yeah , I'm standing here , I made it , but you're not gonna hurt my feelings , it's just , it's just something we're both looking at , but just , that's a really . I shared that with with Ella when we were looking at a couple of the shows while we were there . She would say I really like this one , Awesome , what do you like about it specifically ? Or , this one isn't really my favorite , Okay , what don't you like about it ? But just that simple follow-up question opens a door to a lot of understanding and training our eye . I think that's a good . What you just shared a moment ago is a really good segue into section 30 . See as much as you can . What you just shared a moment ago is a really good segue into section 30 . See as much as you can .
Speaker 2This is on page 63 . For those of you who are reading along which , again , this is just us , you know , talking about a really good book . Go get the book , and the auto version is fantastic as well . As we've mentioned before , Jerry reads it in his own words , which is uh , is also just excellent . So go out and get it . But , um , if you're reading along with us at home , this is on page 63 . Jerry writes artists see very differently . They get up very close to a work . They inspect every detail . It's textures , it's materials , it's makeup . They touch it . There's a story I really want to share , but I'm not going to .
Speaker 1You won't be allowed back . Remind me .
Speaker 2That's exactly right . Tell me offline , I sure I definitely will . They touch it . Look at its edges , peer at the object from every angle . You can always tell the artists in museums . They're the ones with their faces one inch from the surface of a work , like a dog sniffing another . But it's so , but it's so , true .
Speaker 2And so ella is also , uh , getting into photography . So she took her camera into the a couple of the shows that we went to see , art art into the museum , and and she , she sent me all of her photos and she took a lot of really cool like up close shots . In fact , when we do another Witten episode , we got a lot of really nice detail shots . We can we can credit Ella for those . But she , she took a bunch of pictures of me looking at work and as I was scrolling through them , you can maybe include this in the in the YouTube version . It's so many versions of me just leaning in , you know , super , super close , like you know , really , really , really getting up in it . But it just made me laugh and it made me when I read this section I was like , yep , that's that's me , that's us . You know , that's what we think about it .
Speaker 1This is the beauty of that , though , nathan , is that you and I have both been just completely enthralled in notes from the woodshed Jack Whitten's journals . Right , like enthralled is almost an understatement like blown away and absolutely in love with this man , this artist , this creator . And how can you not want to just physically dive in and feel every little moment of his work ? Because you've read about his struggle to create the things that ended up in the museum , that ended up , you know , bought by private collectors around the world , et cetera , et cetera . So here you are , reading about everything he's doing and learning and discovering and failing , and then discovering and exploding , and then , all of a sudden , you're right in front of that work . Like , for an artist , there is literally nothing better in the world to be in front of one of your hero's pieces .
Speaker 2That's a fact . Impulse control has never been a strength of mine . Have been a strength of mine , but it's so . It took every fiber of my being to not just rub my hands and uh and get , get real , get real up close and personal and I mean we're , we're art nerds .
Speaker 1There's such a beauty in being an art nerd . I mean there's nothing that I love more , and I mean that's one . One of my favorite things when I'm in museums is to talk to the attendants . You're with the work every day . You know , share something with me . How is it , you know , and some love to share , and some just kind of look at me like okay , and they move on to the next room because they don't want to talk .
Speaker 1But I'm , here so you don't touch things . That's yeah , that's what I know . But , man , I want to know , you know , and sometimes I've met great artists who are in an MFA program or they're in art school or they're , you know , looking to do curatorial studies or different things . So then we really get into great conversations about the work in the room . But my other favorite thing is when I'm in a room of art , I really know well , being that art nerd that wants to share with whoever else is in the room any educational information that they may or may not want to receive . And so I've been pretty I've been known to walk up to hey , would you like to learn some more about this work ? Or hey , what do you see about ? And I want to know , why are you standing in front of this piece for the last 15 minutes ? What is it ? And sometimes people get excited and they want to share another times . Maybe it's intrusive , I don't know , but I don't care . I love art , I want to talk about it .
Speaker 2Shall we talk about it some more right now .
Speaker 1Yes , perfect , skipping ahead a little bit here to number 32 , which is page 67 . And he's talking about art being a verb . I love the last few sentences where he says even on the most basic level , art acts upon us all . It sees you across the room and it says , hey , you come closer , I could change your life . I mean , as an artist
Becoming a Seeing Machine
Speaker 1, hearing that like inside , I'm getting chills , like thinking of somebody seeing my work from across the room and being so drawn to it to purchase that work . Right , right , and there was a I didn't share this with you , I forgot I was going to I think it was Artnet put up a post this morning .
Speaker 1That was a young curator sharing advice from past failures collectors , sorry , young art collectors sharing advice from past failures . And one of the one of the collectors said that they bought a work of art that was hot and they were told to buy because the artist was hot and they passed on one that was moving them and they got home and put it in the house . It did nothing , no emotion , no , nothing . Never make that decision again , right , and you turn around and you walk all the way across the entire hallway to the next room because you saw it out of the corner of your eye and then you're just wowed by it , like that's magic , that is supernatural magic . I love that .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's something that when , especially when , whatever non-art people that's a dumb way of saying it , but whatever people who aren't looking a lot of art , whatever people that I just know from life who are just coming by to see what I'm up to , that's one of the things that , when they ask what , what were you trying to do with this , or what's the work about in general , it's one of the most like , I think , whatever entry level or user friendly ways of of you know , extending that invitation to people , which is just to say I'm just trying to invite people in , I'm just trying to get you person standing next to me who is looking at something that I made to just be curious about what's going on here . You know , what is this made of ? What , what , how , how does it make me feel ? How do I , how do I receive that ? I mean , these are very basic , simple questions that anybody , with or without any context , you know , can certainly sit with and enhance their experience of whatever they're looking at , whether they like it or not .
Speaker 2All right , so Ty uh , section 33 , learn the difference between subject matter and content . This is great . We're going to skip to the very last paragraph , which is on page 70 . When you look at art , make subject matter the first thing you see and then stop seeing it . Start seeing into the art . Find what needs are being expressed or hidden there . What else is behind the narrative ? A work of art is a rich estuary of material , personal , public and aesthetic ideas . Let its water pass through its banks to reach you .
Speaker 1That's a pretty poetic little paragraph . That's a very deep , jerry , right there . Oh yeah , this is a great paragraph because this is how I work on my art . So here he's talking about the viewer , right , he's talking about the person coming and look . But when I make , like today , when I was working on a small work and I was sewing my ass off , uh , and I was the subject matters there , and then I was trying not to see it because I wanted to start doing some things below the surface that maybe could push forward into the viewer's eye , things that are hidden , that I want to express in more emotive things , right , in an abstract way , and so I want the viewer to go .
Speaker 1What else is behind that narrative ? Just like you said , why are these three little seams sewn here ? Why are these ? Why is this these ? Why are these fibers wrapped up in around each other rather than just going straight across ? Yeah Right , there's purpose in each little thing that I'm doing and applying it . There is an estuary of all these different things of family , of memory , of future , looking ahead at things , as I'm talking about loss and living and new beginnings . So I have all these little moments wrapped up in there . It really is things diving below the surface , hoping that the waters do pass through and reach somebody that's looking at it . It's a great paragraph for an artist to really dive into .
Speaker 2And I'll just be real vulnerable here and admit that this is much more challenging for me with representational work than it is with abstract work , because I have the sometimes knee-jerk tendency to be like oh , that's a still life , that's a portrait , that's a landscape , sure , no , no , no . What Jerry's saying here is get past the subject , right , let yourself , let yourself , you know , go deeper . If we're really going to let its water pass through its banks and reach us , we need to get beyond simply oh , that's , that's that , let's move on . No , no , no , there's way more there to really absorb .
Speaker 1Absolutely , when I think part of that for the artist is being inconsistent . I love that If you're completely consistent and we're going to talk about . He says I'm going to read quite a bit on this little section here , cause I think this is just really really meaty . Variety , flexibility , experimentation , diversity , they're all essential , all those things . They're all essential , all those things . This doesn't mean that every new thing you make should be completely different from what you've done before . That's a sign you're scared , lazy or some kind of performative blowhard .
Speaker 1But moments when something appears in your work gives you an opening . I mean , I am always searching for we talk about this in the podcast , I think every episode , maybe searching for that discovery , right , that little opening , and then something appears in your work that gives you that some mutation and oddity . Maybe it's a mistake , maybe you accidentally spilled or you got a little smudge there , but it becomes something . Variability allows your work to breathe . It helps you steer clear of tyrannies and find charm in the unfamiliar . Now artists , listen to breathe . It helps you steer clear of tyrannies and find charm in the unfamiliar . Now artists , listen to this . I want you to really put headphones on and listen to what I say here .
Speaker 1Try whatever you want to try . Different sizes , different tools , materials , subjects , anything . You are not making a product . Don't resist something If you're afraid it's taking you really far away from your usual direction . That's the wild animal in you feeding . This is how you evolve , the way you keep from being caged . I can't tell you , nathan , how many artists have said , well , I shouldn't probably use that because that's not an art material . Don't I have to paint with oil , don't I have to do X , y , z in order to get in a gallery , or no use whatever you want . Where , where is the animal leading you ? Go , don't let anything hold you back , go . I mean , this is from the Pulitzer prize winning art critic , jerry salts try whatever you want permission , salt . Try whatever you want Permission .
Speaker 2I want to tell a story from your mentorship program , this quote , this one in particular . I still have it written on a just scrawled on a piece of cardboard that I taped to the wall at the time and I keep it up for this very reason at the time and I and I keep it up for this very reason . This is the . This was a core , like aha moment for me when we went through this in the program , and something that was critical , like absolutely essential in me , really like getting that and this is what I'd written that . You already read it , but I'm going to reread it because I think it's important Don't resist something If you're afraid it's taking you far afield from your usual direction .
Speaker 2That's the wild animal in you feeding . That's what I have written down and that's what I have . It just connected with me at like a soul level in a way that really helped me realize like , oh yeah , this is it . I mean what are we after If not that ? I mean what are we after if not that ? I mean , as artists , like , what are we after if not that feeling of being wild and free and feral ? You know what I mean , not this domesticated , you know version of what we think we're supposed to be or how we're supposed to behave , based on the expectations of others , but when a wild animal is hungry , it finds a way to feed In fact that is most wild animals' primary function every day .
Speaker 1And it doesn't matter how far it needs to go to find the food . It will do whatever it takes .
Speaker 2So if we think about a predator , we think about something like a wolf , whose range is huge , right , other predators , like you know . Whatever , this is not a wildlife podcast , but you know , any apex predator will be another example . A polar bear , a polar bear , what am I trying to think of ?
Speaker 1I don't know I'm just going to start throwing out .
Speaker 2Whatever , thank you . Yeah , thanks for trying to help , um , but they've got a huge range In other words , they cover a lot of area to find something to feed on . They're not particular about . Oh no , this is my little area and this is my little spot , and if something comes by , I guess I'll eat today . No , no , no , it's , I'm eating today and I will go wherever I have to to find a meal .
Artists Need to Be Inconsistent
Speaker 2And that's , I think , the mindset that is that is really important , certainly one that helped me evolve and push the work forward . I actually remember making a , making a little video where I , where I held this quote up . You may remember the triplet that I was working on at the time , but that was something where I started to use I was still working on canvas , it was still paint on canvas during that period , but I started to use different materials cardboard , other things like that and and that was , you know , only one of those three is anything that I would have see the light of day , you know , at this point . But that's not the point . The point is that's what led me to um , a meal that day , and certainly more , more meals , you know , going forward .
Speaker 1Well , and I want to be inconsistent . You know , going forward , well , I want to be inconsistent . Yeah , I want to be consistently making work . I want to be consistently making strong work , but I don't want the work to be just this consistent line of the same thing for my whole life .
Speaker 1I was showing my last mentorship group we were talking about this and I showed , uh , I did a little graphic of work from 2010 to today and it was one to two pieces from 2010 all the way to today , and it showed how inconsistent my work has changed and developed and grown and gone completely off map to new ideas and then back to other little ideas . And so I want , I want my work to do that , because I think that's how I'm going to keep discovering these new things within it . And I also know that all of your work you make is not going to be consistently strong . Every artist in history has taught me that . Every artist I've read , studied , looked at their bits and pieces throughout their timeline where they made really strong work , and then there's a bunch of stuff in between .
Speaker 2Yeah , we probably don't need to continue beating this horse , but I'm going to . I just that last line . The way you keep from being caged . Yeah , I'm just thinking about this , about this , this predator metaphor , but I mean there are a few things more depressing than visiting a zoo and seeing especially animals that are not meant to , which is , most of them , be caged . I mean , there's still magnificent creatures to witness and see up close , but you can tell if you've ever seen , you know , photo or video of that same species in the wild . It's not the same .
Speaker 2So the more we can keep ourselves from becoming domesticated , from becoming caged , the less dependent we'll be on the slot opening up and then throwing out today's version of rule . To eat , that's a primal instinct that those animals have to not just eat whatever meat or eat their food , but to acquire it , to catch it , to kill it . That's all part of it . All part of it . Yeah , ty , skipping ahead to section 37 . Every choice you make , your mediums , processes , colors , shapes and images should serve not nostalgia but your visceral present . You are an artist of modern life . That personal specific urgency is what fuels every successful work of art . Personal specific urgency . When I stare at you like this . This means Keep staring at me .
Speaker 1I'm trying to think of what to say . All right , you know , this is a really difficult conversation and I've had this conversation with a lot of friends who are highly more academic than me , who have PhDs in art history and curatorial PhDs and things , and so these are some conversations that we have a lot because we're contemporary , we're making art today , which means we're alive in today's culture . That's living , not dead culture , but culture that's currently , right now , this moment is contemporary . So confusion a lot of people have with saying contemporary art when they're trying to say modern art or you know , um , contemporaries today . And so really what Jerry's saying is you're making art today , so your art needs to reflect today .
Speaker 1And so I had this conversation with a friend of mine that said a lot of your work is very it's abstract expressionist , but abstract expressionism is dead . How do you feel about that ? And I was like it was like a stake to the heart kind of thing , you know , because that is my movement , that I love more than anything , that I am an academic in and study fervently . But I get what he's saying too , but do I think it's dead ? Well , I think what happened then is dead , like those moments , new moments today . The reason they were making abstract expressionist art was for a specific purpose , for that moment in that time .
Speaker 1Now that doesn't mean that certain elements and style and representation from that doesn't carry over to today doesn't carry over to today , and I'm always battling that when I paint and do things and trying to find new elements that I can add that maybe haven't been done before with abstract expressionism . So maybe it's a little more expressionism with some philosophical elements or things . My same friend had said in a podcast that we did together years ago and he said I think you're more to me of a philosopher , poet . Expressionist is how I would define you as an artist . So it's expressionism , but with a deep philosophical and poetic element to it which would be different than those first few waves , because I do have texts and I do have some context and things . But that's a hard conversation because you're looking at trying to create something that is of today and new , but you're still bringing in those elements and those ideas from things that you love , and all art has done that . But all art also continues to arrive in something new today , something different than what was before .
Speaker 2So what I'm not answering .
Speaker 1I'm just creating conversation for everybody to think about .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . I mean , I guess what I'm , what I'm , what I'm hearing , uh , in in very simplistic terms , which is the best I can do . You know , most days is that it . What you're making is alive , because you are alive today and you are making it , Yep , yeah .
Speaker 1Moving on to step four , entering the art world world A guide to the snake pit yeah that it is , and I love that he has on that first image there next to it , a photo of Alice Neal in her studio next to a wonderful painting of her . She's one of my favorite artists . Anytime I bump into an Alice Neal
Creating Art for Your Visceral Present
Speaker 1in a museum , I freak out and have . Courage is the very first part , and that I mean honestly . Is there anything else you need going into the art world than courage ? I mean you need a lot of other things , but you really do need courage first .
Speaker 2I also love . I'm just thinking sorry , I was just that Alice Neofoto took me back to a couple years ago . I got to see a phenomenal show of hers at the Orange County Museum of Art and that was the first time I had seen . You know , I don't even know 20 , 30 of her phenomenal works together , so that's just where my head's at now . I gotta I gotta get back on track , cause I'm also massive Alice Neal fan . That would be a great episode for the future as well .
Speaker 1That would be well , and he says here , talking about courage , think of what it took for an artist like Alice to pursue her rough hewn portraits up in her Harlem apartment when no one else was doing anything like them . Or for Alex Katz to make his big , flat figure of paintings in the fifties in the face of the juggernaut of abstraction , for Twombly to deploy erratic scrawls as the carrier froze art . What belief they showed , allowing their art to follow its own intuitive logic . Courage is a desperate gamble that will place you in the arms of the creative angels .
Speaker 1You know , I've been reading about Ellsworth Kelly , robert , indiana , a number of the slip artists from the from the fifties and sixties and those are two artists as well that that in that same thing . Here they are in the ABEX movement and they're trying to create things that are not abex . Yeah , so that battle of nobody else is doing anything like ellsworth kelly was doing at that time and he's trying so hard to get it into galleries and get it going , but he had the courage to stay with it come back to that .
Speaker 2Can you hear my phone ? Can we turn our ?
Speaker 1phones off out there people , please Silence Put your phones on silence it's just a computer .
Speaker 1I mean , I respect the Ellsworth Kellys of the world . During that time they had an uphill battle where he was the only person doing a specific thing and everybody else is doing abstract expressionism . So every gallery , every museum , especially on the East Coast , they want abstract expressionism work . Right , and he had left Paris to New York because New York's where everything's happening . Paris isn't happening as much as it was before and he and his friends had been moving back to New York from Paris .
Speaker 1But he's doing something that nobody's doing with his minimalist shapes and his objects and those things in a place when everybody's going nuts on the canvas . Right , but he stuck with it . It would have been really easy for him because he was talented enough to go . You know what ? This is too hard . I'm just going to do what everybody else is doing . But he didn't do that . He just stayed with his vision . He stayed with where he really saw his work going . And what do you have ? He has his own museum in Austin , Texas , connected to the Blanton , which I've been in . It's fabulous . He's got works in museums all over the world .
Speaker 1I mean , one of the greatest artists in history , and that's literally it . He had so much courage and he had incredible people . Agnes Martin was a mother-like figure to him . They had breakfast every day for a whole year together in the slip , and he was able to ask her questions and get her , you know , having her continue to build confidence in him at an age when he needed that artist who was known and recognized , speaking into his work and life Right . But he needed someone else to help that courage and that confidence .
Speaker 2I just want to revisit that last line . Yeah , do it . Courage is a desperate gamble that will place you in the arms of the creative angels . So , to break that down , we're talking about a huge risk with massive reward on the other side . Yeah , desperate gamble ? Ooh , that's all I'm looking at . I'm going to say , probably , no , thank you . Well , wait , hold on . What's on the other side of that gamble ? What do I stand to win with this gamble being placed in the arms of the creative angels ? Okay , well , that that reward is worth the risk . You know what I'm saying .
Speaker 2Like you know , risk is just some some risk doesn't make any sense whatsoever . Some leaps don't have anything on the other side of them and are really , you know , risk is just some . Some risk doesn't make any sense whatsoever . Some leaps don't have anything on the other side of them and are really , you know , silly and foolish decisions . But when we think about what's on the other side of having courage , it's absolutely worth that leap of faith . It's absolutely worth taking that gamble because , even when we don't know what's on the other side , we know it's something . And because we take the leap , then , and only then , do we have the opportunity , do we have the chance of resting in the arms of the creative angels and being taken somewhere other than where we started .
Speaker 1Well , and you're ready for this ? Here's the definition of courage , because we haven't even gotten to that yet . He doesn't talk about it . He just says have courage , the ability to do something that frightens one and also strengthen the face of pain or grief , or grief . So , when you're an artist , having courage is a difficult thing . Are you willing to suffer , are you willing to sacrifice ? Are you willing to live through pain and grief , doing something that completely scares the absolute hell out of you to get to where you want to go ? That's art . That is art Like . That should be the definition of art courage .
Speaker 1Because , look , I'm doing everything I can in the face of courage right now , with this massive , just shift in ideas within my work . Yep , and I've left you voice messages . We've talked on the phone regularly and you know I've been pretty open with I'm really having fun , but I have no freaking idea where I'm going yet . I don't . I think I do , I think I do , but I don't . And it's taken me all these different places . I've been putting little snippets up on Instagram , but not showing full work yet or anything , not for a while . I have not pitched it to my dealers , I haven't shown it to any galleries . I'm taking Jack Whitten's advice and I'm basically closing my doors and just focusing on the work . That's it , because I know what's on the other side , because history has told me what's on the other side for the artists that do take that time and that do really buckle down
The Art World: A Guide to the Snake Pit
Speaker 1and embrace where they think it's going and follow through with it .
Speaker 2So you know broadly what's on the other side Broadly .
Speaker 1Yeah , I don't know exactly . You can't , you can't . That's where the fear comes from . Yeah , that's subset C in the definition of art . You have no idea what's going to happen and you won't . That's right .
Speaker 2Yeah , moving on to the next section , 40 , don't define yourself by a single medium . Love this . Don't limit your potential by presenting yourself as just one kind of maker a potter , printmaker , watercolorist , macrameist , landscape painter , stone carver , steel sculptor , paper maker , glassblower , sketch artist , etcher , graffiti . You get the idea You're an artist Skipping ahead .
Speaker 2I once heard Robert Rauschenberg describe his combine assemblages as not painting or sculpture , but poetry . That's you a material poet . Oh , I love that . This times out perfectly because you know one of the other big um , just incredibly impactful .
Speaker 2One of the other shows that we went to out of New York was Rashid Johnson's help home for deep thinkers , and it's perfect because we're talking about poetry and that's the title of the show .
Speaker 2But a perfect , you know , contemporary example of somebody who's using a perfect , you know contemporary example of somebody who's using photo , uh , painting , video , installation , found objects , sculpture , you name it . Probably a number of things I'm forgetting , but it's all we're going to do . A Rashid episode as well , oh , yeah , coming up , coming up here , but it's all on the table , you know it's . He is certainly not defined by any single medium or even a short , it's a long list of mediums that he's using . You know , indiscriminately to me that's not the right word , but you know freely to communicate his message and that was such a beautiful , just recent example for me of you know what it looks like to work through some of these different concepts and ideas , through very different mediums which holistically , when viewed together especially , tells a much more , you know , complete and engaging story than just want to meet him alone , absolutely , I am in 100% agreement with that and I'm a massive Rashid Johnson fan .
Speaker 1I've followed him for a very , very , very long time . I do want to talk a little about the next section , even though I don't think we need to get into it really deep , but I just want to let everybody know you don't need grad school . Can grad school help ? Absolutely , but I think grad school is expensive . Artists don't make good money . They can make money to survive , but the amount of artists who are very wealthy and make a lot of money is a very , very tiny , minuscule part of the history of artists . So , can grad school help you ? Sure , absolutely , but if you do not have the right mentality going into grad school , it will not help you . Yeah , the artists who go into grad school and buckle down and do everything they can to get to know their professors , to network when they're there , to go out and see a ton of shows , that just really , really dive in and do above and beyond what everybody else is doing , things tend to happen for them more than the artists who are just showing up . I mean , when you say it , it makes sense , but you'd be surprised at how many artists are in grad school and they're just showing up . They're not taking the time to truly invest in their professors , to truly invest in their critique and networks there , to truly invest in what's going on outside of grad school , in the city they may be in . And so you have a large population of artists with MFAs who don't have anything going for them , and they're in the same boat as artists that do not have MFAs . Those artists just have a lot less debt . So grad school could be a great idea for you , may not be a great idea for you , but you don't need it to be successful as an artist .
Speaker 1I love this next section be a vampire form , a coven and an incredible photo of Jean-Michel Basquiat and Francisco Clemente , two of my favorite artists at Keith Haring's pop shop . And they were part of a coven of a number of neo-expressionist artists at that time in New York City who were all hanging out as a crew , making art , playing music , hanging out , going to museums , bothering Andy Warhol , doing everything they could to get somewhere together . And he says artists must commune with their own kind in order to survive . Even if you live in a small town like me , or out in the woods , do everything you can to bond with other artists . These are the people you will stay up late with . Learn from comfort , fight with and love . They're the people who give you the late with . Learn from comfort , fight with and love . They're the people who give you the strength to keep working through the pain . This is how you will change the world and your art .
Speaker 1I know how difficult this is because I hear it from artists all the time I have no art friends . How do I find them ? What's a good place ? Way to start ? How can I do that ? I'm very fortunate . I have a lot of artists friends all over the world , from before Instagram , from before social media to today .
Speaker 1Social media has made that even more incredible , and so , for those artists that have not had that opportunity , you better start going to some shows . You better start going to places where artists are , and I think it was in Jeff Goines' book Real Artists , don't Starve , and he says if you're in a town where there isn't anything , be the one that starts it . Yeah , if you're in a town where there isn't a lot of art going on , there are artists . I can guarantee it , there are artists . Be the first person to start something . Yeah , start a little meetup . Started at a coffee shop , started at a pub or wherever you want . Hey , artists meeting up here , you're going to meet somebody . You need them . I mean , how important is it ? We have crews . You and I both have similar crews . We have crews outside that we've formed , you know , outside of different things so , but you know how important it is , nathan .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , it's critical . I mean , and to your point , there's never been a better time to begin and maintain some of those relationships and connections . You know , virtually there is no substitute for IRL , right , actually sharing space with somebody you know . But a lot of you know relationships and connections can certainly be started and and , like I said , maintained and development continued over time , just by being aware of what other people are doing . You know , I had a really fun experience , um , you know , last week when we were out in New York , I got a chance to visit two of my artist friends that I had spent this is from the Clubhouse days I was trying to figure out with one of them , I spent some time with Vero Perez , who's a phenomenal filmmaker and photographer , another friend of mine , bradley Hart and visiting their studio , seeing their space , seeing Vero's vintage cameras , visiting Bradley's studio and seeing his very unique and incredible , you know , process and just spending time .
Speaker 2But we were light years ahead of where we would have been had I just I don't know cold call or just shown like we already had a very real , you know , virtual , whatever friendship by by , by extension of the time that we had spent just in communication , even though we were , whatever , half a country apart .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean , I think last week Gianna Tassone and I one of my closest art friends , she's really my art little sister , I think we were going back and forth on Marco Polo , just talking about things coming up and what she's
Courage and Creative Angels
Speaker 1got going on . On Marco Polo just talking about things coming up and what she's got going on , and then she had me write a reference letter for a university in London , for a grad program , and so we were going and talking about that . But just having being able to have those people in your life that are go-tos for , hey , I've got this going . What ? What do you think ? Hey , would you write a reference for me ? Because sometimes they want a professional and a personal reference . Yeah , right , so you , you're going to need other artists to write references for you If you want to get into certain shows or certain , get a grant or do a residency or things that are requiring those things , and so , but just being able to send you a voice message , an audio message , and go , hey , I was doing this today , I'm sending you three pictures .
Speaker 1Let me get your feedback Right , cause we've talked about before , don't worry about what everybody says about your work . Worry about what the right people say about your work .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that was from part one , or ?
Speaker 1part three yeah .
Speaker 2So Jerry talks about this and we did a little section on that , but it's super important because there has to be a level of of of trust there , trust that you're asking for feedback from someone who has an idea about what the hell you're trying to do , who has seen enough of your work to have context for whatever you might be doing in front of them , somebody who understands you and your personality well enough to know how to deliver that feedback in a way that's going to be , you know , received . I mean , the better you know somebody , the more direct , probably , and and , uh , you know , straightforward you can be . But even as well as you and I know each other , I don't think we've ever gone so far as be like , uh , that actually sucks , you should probably just call it a day . I mean , you've got to be , you know , uh , intentional in the way that you communicate that feedback and the way that you ask for it .
Speaker 2You know , I think that you know part of it , too , is really comes from , you know , knowing what you want to get in terms of feedback . Right , it's like , hey , here's something , what do you think ? Well , okay , I mean example with you and I , as I'm working on this new body of work , of sculpture , a lot of it is . Hey , what do you think about this ? What did these copper elements ? You know , how do you ? What are your thoughts on how they're , they're interacting with the ? You know transparent , you know resin as a sculptural , you know component , whatever it is right , but it's it's being specific about like , hey , here's exactly what it is that I'm really whatever wrestling with , thinking about looking for feedback on the more intentional we are with our request , the more specific the feedback is going to be , which I think is really important .
Speaker 1Absolutely and always remember , like page 43 , except that you'll likely be poor . Like page 43 , accept that you'll likely be poor . Remember that 1% of 1% , of 1% of all artists get rich from their artwork . You may feel overlooked , under-recognized and underpaid . There's no getting around it being poor is hard . Among the artists I've met , though , those who maintain a network of support , all live a life that keeps the mind nimble and young , the spirit alive , their art growing and enriching themselves and others who are fortunate enough to see it Meaning . They understand this and they're happy with the sacrifice they've made to do what they love and what they do . We all struggle . We all struggle .
Speaker 2Well , and that's a really good . I mean , it's almost as though the next section was meant to follow the one that preceded it . But for defined success , I'm going to just jump ahead . You want the truth . The best definition of success is time , the time to do your work . You know , and he talks a lot about in this section , about I'm just going to kind of paraphrase here , but actually I'll just read it but if you married a rich person and had lots of money , would you be satisfied with just the money , no recognition , no community , no lasting work ? Would you be satisfied if you owned a fast food chain ? Subway sells a lot of hoagies , but that doesn't make them heroes . So the financial component of all this is really important .
Speaker 2He talks about the importance of defining success . He offers a definition of success that I agree with in part . Um , I would I would extend this to say you know , if we don't define success for ourselves , then we will be subject to the definitions of others , like this is a you thing . It's up to you , ty , it's up to me to determine what our personal definition of success is with our work and with our artistic practice . And if we don't do that , we're going to be buffeted about by the winds of life , by the trends and the opinions and positions of others , and that's not something that I'm interested in . That's something that I don't think anybody would necessarily sign up for voluntarily . This is something that it's really up to us to determine honestly and objectively . And , of course , listen , we got to eat . Shelter is pretty important . We all have financial needs , but Jerry goes on to write about the benefits of again by his definition , success being more time to make our work .
Speaker 2A three-day-a-week job means four days off , four days to make your own art . See , you've achieved the first measure of success time . Now get to work , or give up your dreams and muster out . There's the door . Now there's something really important there . That is probably pretty obvious , but I'm going to highlight it anyway . You're on , you only have those two days on the weekend , or you know whatever vacation time , or your , you know , or your evenings , whatever time that we have to , you know , be engaged in our artistic practice . We're assuming here , okay , so let's just unpack this .
Speaker 2A three day a week job means four days off , four days to make your own art , okay . So what it doesn't mean is one day to maybe make your art and three days to do whatever , right ? So if you're serious about this , it means that for all of us , we need to proactively prioritize our time and make sure that our actions actually match our goals . Yeah , if my goal is to
Don't Define Yourself by a Single Medium
Speaker 2be about this life , then it's really important that I am intentional about honoring my other priorities outside of art and then making sure that everything that isn't required of me in those areas gets poured into art , and I'm not saying you know live , you know a monastic life that only involves you know art , but it could be that for periods of time , you know . Certainly it absolutely means taking a scalpel to our schedule and being honest with ourselves about what we are doing with the time that we do have available , however much that might be about what we are doing with the time that we do have available , however much that might be .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think that's something that I wish I would have learned a little bit earlier . Um , because I think I would have been a little bit further along with my work . Right , because , coming out of art school trying to figure out life , you know , and doing things , I still made work , but I did a whole lot of other stuff that was just wasteful , you know , just wasteful living . Um , that wasn't taking me in any direction . You know time wasting watching too many movies , things like that . That I should have been making art in those moments for the young artists out there listening . Think about that . Think about that , because I'm not saying give up on your friends . I'm not saying give it up , give up on skating or doing things that you love to do as a hobby or being outside and doing certain things .
Speaker 1A lot of my time back in the day was spent skating , skating pools and ditches and things like that , and but it was with the crew and people that I love . So there was great relationship building and human bonding . That was just fantastic in those moments . I'm not saying give those things up , but maybe reprioritize how time is spent so that in 15 , 20 years your work is further along than it would be if you didn't reprioritize those things and you slowly made art and then all of a sudden , when you had the time to make it , you're making up for lost time . That's how I feel . I feel like I'm making up for lost time now and I think if some of these things were put into place earlier , then I might be a little further along , because I know what time does . Now I understand what time spent making work does Right .
Speaker 2Okay . So section 45 , art and therapy . So Jerry writes we are all damaged , some more than others , some traumatically , and he goes on to share some some real shit , that that he's been through in his life . He ends those examples by saying I don't think of this as trauma , it's just my life , it's a miracle Any of us makes it through .
Speaker 2What about therapy ? Therapy can be great for artists . So can Tai Chi , tarot , fashion , sports walks , god massages , dancing and so on . Whatever your personal story . Find a practice that eases your mind , gives you perspective and allows you to work . These are spirit guides in other guises . If you work very hard and try to be very honest with yourself , your art might tell you almost everything you need to know about yourself . I'm going to , I'm going to go go here with this and you tell me if you agree .
Speaker 2I think it's important that he titles a section art and therapy as opposed to art as therapy . So art can absolutely be therapeutic , but I'll just speak in the first person . I believe that you know my own forms of therapy have definitely put me further down the path towards , you know , real honesty in my work and because I've done some actual therapy and other varieties , you know of that that that have done elsewhere , I'm further along in understanding those things and able to communicate it better , more efficiently , properly , more effectively . I don't know what the right way of putting it is , but I think just being further down the path , you know . So , not necessarily . And look , there's nothing wrong with using art as therapy . There's an entire space for that . That's , I think , tremendously valuable . But you know , thinking back to our , you know I think our Louise episode was the one where we kind of did our own little version of trauma dumping and sharing . You know our , where we kind of did our own little version of trauma dumping and sharing . You know our own personal backstory and how that affects our work today .
Speaker 2I think that you know , just going back to what Jerry said , if you work very hard and try to be very honest with yourself , your art might tell you almost everything you need to know about yourself .
Speaker 2I realized something I don't remember exactly when , it was but a couple of years in that , you know , art introduced me to myself in a way that nothing else could . And having started this whole thing , um , you know , somewhat later in life , you know as I was , you know whatever approaching , anyway , you know , middle age when I when I really , you know committed to art full time . It was an interesting , I guess , process for me , just to get to a point where it was like , oh , I've already . I get my point sharing , that is , I had already done
Artists Need to Form a Coven
Speaker 2a lot of the work , I'd already processed a lot of those things , but there was something magical about art and everybody knows what I mean when I say this that allowed me to really understand and be able to communicate some of those things , if only to myself , in ways that are naturally going to express themselves in the work as well . I agree with you fully .
Speaker 1Thanks , coach . Yep , I have nothing to add on it other than it's . You know it's soul care yeah , make sure you have , and we talk about this a lot because it's something that's important to both of us . We both know how healthy that is for the artist to have soul care moments outside of the studio . So just make sure you're embracing those other things outside of the studio for healing and for centering in yourself rather than trying to find it in your art . And , importantly , I think this next section is one of the most this is the second most important part , I think , of this book . So all of the things about being an artist and who you are as an artist and how to be like . I think this is so important and he talks about it .
Speaker 1Only takes a few people to make your career and he says dealers you only need one . You need somebody who believes in you and supports you . Collectors you only need a handful five or six who will buy your work from time to time over the years . Critics well , it'd be nice to have some who seem to get what you're doing , but he goes down . Curators it'd be nice to have a few of your generation or older who can put you in good shows from time to time and he says that's it . 12 people maybe . Surely your crappy art can fake out 12 stupid people . So , jerry , right there . But here's the thing , here's the one condition . Okay , everybody , let's put those radars on those antennas and start really listening .
Speaker 1Again , you have to put yourself out there , artists . You have to get out there . It will not happen if you're not putting yourself out there . No matter how hard it is and I know for some of you out there , this is one of the hardest things , because you're extremely introverted . You don't want to go , start new conversations with people you've never seen before . That's really difficult for some of you , but you have to show up . You have to go to everything . Go to openings , just if you're going to stand around and feel inadequate . Talk to the other wallflowers and he says the secret is , 80% of us are doing that same thing . We're all scared . We're all standing against the wall . I don't want to talk to anybody , but most galleries , curators , collectors and critics learn about artists through other artists . Yeah , they learn about you from your friends , from your network . Pay attention to what the galleries are showing . Yeah , work when you're getting started either . That only makes it harder for anyone to take a chance on you .
Speaker 1Jeff Koons prices early works at less than the fabrication costs . He was eating costs to sell work . So some people are better connected than others . They get to 12 supporters faster , but the art world is full of these privileged people . It is unfair and unjust . It's still a problem for women artists and artists of color especially , not to mention artists over 40 . The road is rougher for these artists and it needs to be changed by all of us . Things are rapidly changing . The art world is changing . It is an ever evolving and I'm glad that it's an ever changing and allowing artists to have a presence who should have had a presence 40 , 50 , 60 , 70 years ago . It's sad that it's taken so long for some of these artists to catch up . Jack Whitten should have had 50 retrospectives at the MoMA by now .
Speaker 1Get out there , you guys . Ladies , gentlemen , go to shows , go meet people , be bold , because you're going to have to be bold with your work . You're going to have to be bold with your work to get it out there . So go be bold as the artist as well . It's a combination . You got to be bold , get out there and meet people say hi , if you're going to pitch a gallery , they're not just going to take a cold email and put you in their space . You're going to end up having to have a studio visit or doing a zoom and talking . So if you're not practiced , you're going to blow it . Get out and meet people so you can start learning how to handle your nerves and swallow that introvertedness , so that when the opportunity comes , you can really pitch yourself and your work with confidence .
Speaker 2I will speak to this as the resident introvert of the two of us . I think it's really one word there that jumps off the page to me is connected . Some people are better connected . Let's talk about the word connection . I mean , I think that all of those you know 12 people .
Speaker 2There's a version of connection , human to human , and that all begins with the condition that Jerry's very clear about , which is you have to put yourself out there , and I would just offer that putting yourself out there can come in many different forms . You know , showing up to galleries and shows is certainly one of them , but it's definitely not the only one . There are a lot of ways to show up , get out of our comfort zone and do things that maybe don't even make sense or seem like a good idea at the time . But I guess what I would offer is you just never know who you're going to meet , you never know who's going to . You know , see what you're doing , feel a connection to it and want to be a part of what you've got going on going forward as any of the above , I went to a festival to make art and kind of not really in front of a bunch of people . There are a lot of other things going on . It's not as though I had an audience the entire time , but I had never done any version of that .
Speaker 2This is going back , I guess , a couple , two , three years ago and met some amazing people who have just become , you know , really really cool friends .
Speaker 2But I've had one collector in particular who now owns six or seven of my pieces , uh , who lives out in Philadelphia , and that all started with me just showing up , not really having a plan . I kind of had a plan , but not really knowing what I was going to do and what I was going to do or what it was going to look like . And just by making that connection , by making that you know friend and somebody who really , you know , just really digs what I do and and wants to , wants to own a bunch of pieces and have it , have it in his world , was just really , really cool . So we got to show up , we've got to put ourselves out there in kind of . It's one of those things where it's like just yes should be our default answer to do you want to do this or should I do this ? Because we just never know what's going to come of it . Maybe nothing , but maybe something . But it all starts with showing up .
Speaker 1Yeah , jennifer Montalhón has become a dear friend and an incredible patron
Defining Success on Your Own Terms
Speaker 1and supporter of my work by moving my work and selling it and really taking a serious interest in the artist as well as the art . And I saw a number of friends who she was showing . This is , gosh , pre-covid years ago , and I kept seeing friends like working with her , and so I sent a message and said , hey , I noticed a couple of my friends are showing with you . I love the work that you have . If you're interested in adding another artist , if you're ever looking for another artist , I'd love to . I'd love to pitch .
Speaker 1And got a message within probably an hour that said , oh my gosh , I'd love to talk . Are you free to hop on the phone . I was like , yes , let's talk now , right ? I didn't wait and say , well , I'll be ready next week . And then we hopped on the phone and we were on the phone for 30 minutes and ended up beginning a wonderful relationship . But it also there are plenty of times when I've gone oh man , a lot of my friends are showing here doing this , you know , and it's like , okay , maybe I'll reach out sometime , rather than , you know , I'm going to reach out right now and just see what happens . I mean , what's the worst ? They can say no , right , you got two choices .
Speaker 2They're going to say yes , let's talk , or no , it's basically it . So put yourself out there , and I just want to highlight the numbers game aspect of that . You're great at that . I try to channel my inner tie and I'm getting better at doing those types of things as well , but the success rate can be atrocious . It can be extremely low .
Speaker 1It is and still be a win , right , yeah .
Speaker 2So I mean , if you had to pull a number out of the air , what percent of those , you know ? Whatever cold or lukewarm touches actually produce something ?
Speaker 1Maybe 1% , maybe that's probably less , probably 0.5% , to be honest .
Speaker 2I suspected you were going to say something along those lines . So the point being without those other 99 , you don't get the one .
Speaker 1Yes , if I'm not willing to try , I don't get the one . That is a large part of my practice . Yes , yeah .
Speaker 2Yep , all right , ty , I think it's a good place to land the plane for today . Thank you all for joining us for part three . If you're listening , know that you can see us talk if that sounds interesting . Ty does a great job of the edit and puts a lot of interesting B-roll as well of the artists that we talk about and some different quotes as well . So check us out there , and that's it . Join us next time . Get the book , listen to the book . This is again . This is just a couple of idiots talking about a really fantastic book that we've gotten a lot out of . So , unless you've got anything else , ty , thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time for part four , the final part of how to Be an Artist by Mr Jerry Saltz .
Speaker 1Yep , we'll see you guys later . Have a great day .
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