Make The Art No One Is Asking For with Jeff Musser

Nobody is asking you to make your art. Jeff Musser thinks that’s exactly why you have to make it anyway.

Jeff is a Northern California figurative painter who builds images from collage, family photographs, sketches, and historical source material. We talk about painting as a primal need to make marks, why the studio can feel like a scratch-off ticket you keep buying with your time, and how the best ideas often arrive only after you start. Along the way we bounce off quotes from artists like Jenny Saville, Julian Schnabel, Kerry James Marshall, Ai Weiwei, Lisa Yuskavage, Gerhard Richter, and Chuck Close to get specific about process, risk, and the messy realities of creative work.

Then the conversation turns toward meaning. Jeff shares how his work takes on the history and construct of race, especially the invention and evolution of whiteness, and how that construct shows up in family history and private thought. He also reflects on living in China as a visible outsider, experiencing attention and privilege that made power dynamics impossible to ignore. We talk about art as a form of self-repair, and why serious subject matter still needs play to stay alive.

If you’ve been waiting for permission, this is your reminder to build momentum and make the work. Subscribe, share this with an artist friend, and leave a review.

Find Jeff Musser on Instagram: @jeffmusserart and online at jeffmusser.com

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@justmakeartpodcast   @tynathanclark   @nathanterborg

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Transcript

Cold Open On Creative Compulsion

SPEAKER_00 0:12

No one's asking you to make this. No one's asking for paintings about the history and construct of whiteness. No one's asking for it. I mean, it's like this I didn't see any ads on Craigslist. There wasn't a call to art about it. But the art part of you, the creative part of you, you can never shut that off. You have to get to work. You have to make the work because there is no other choice.

Jenny Saville On Mark Making

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Welcome to today's episode of Just Make Art Podcast. Today we've got a special guest host, Jeff Musser. Jeff's an artist based in Northern California, known for his figurative paintings and collages that tackle the history and construct of race. Before he begins a new piece, Musser gathers photographs of family members, friends, his own sketches, and historical source material, for example, from the Library of Congress, to form a collage. For him, the value of making collages comes from stitching together photos as a kind of fabric, extracting information, and then providing that cumulative information as a totally different package in the form of a painting. This mode of working took on a special relevance for him when he started to examine his own identity within the construct of identity as an American living overseas in China. He is a BFA from the School of Art Institute of Chicago, has had 10 solo exhibitions, the most recent taking place at the Sanchez Art Center in Pacifica, California, and over 50 group exhibitions at venues including Box in Sao Paulo, Brazil, Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Kaufman Gallery at the University of Minnesota, the Delaware Contemporary in Wilmington, Delaware, Manetti Schrem Museum of Art at UC Davis, Garage Art Space in Beijing, China, Luring Augustine in New York, and the Siena Art Institute in Siena, Italy. He's also received numerous grants and residencies, including a grant from the Puffin Foundation, the James Irving Foundation, a recent residency at Chateau Bonavier in Paris, France, and is a guest curator for the upcoming further triennial taking place in Northern California in the spring of 2027. Jeff can be found on Instagram at Jeff.musser.art. That's J E F F dot M-U-S-S-E-R.art. And online, his website is his full name, Jeffmusser.com. Jeff is a good friend of mine. His work is absolutely tremendous. I really hope you go check it out. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Jeff, welcome to the podcast. Man, we've been talking about doing this for quite a while. You've compiled an amazing list of quotes for us today. I'm super excited to talk about these. Let's jump right in. So, first quote that you've got for us today, this is from Jenny Seville. I'm not anti-conceptual art. I don't think painting must be revived exactly. Art reflects life, and our lives are full of algorithms. So a lot of people are going to want to make art that's like an algorithm. But my language is painting, and painting is the opposite of that. There's something primal about it, it's innate, the need to make marks. That's why when you're a child, you scribble.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

I love art in all forms, but I I tend to gravitate and be slightly biased towards painters because that's my primary medium. If you really love painting, you know who Jenny is. And if you're like me, you have a strong reverence for her work. What I love about this quote is she says, innate. I need to make marks. I need to paint. Not part of the quote, but I'm sure she's like me that if you don't paint for a while, you start to get really antsy and nervous and something's missing. You just have to do it. And there is something just so strong about this quote. Like when you're a child, you scribble. It's something that's just so innate in human beings, but not everybody takes that path their whole life. If you're a painter, then it's just something that you have to do when you know. And to nerd out a little bit, Jenny Seville, she talks about the smell of oil paint in a different quote. And she's I've heard this talk about this in interviews, and I feel the same way. Like I loved going to the painting department when I was at school because just the the aroma of oils and the mediums. And then when I was in school, my friends and I, we'd we would drink too much, and then we would blindfold each other, and we would okay, it's gonna it's going off the rails. So we would drink we would drink too much, we would blindfold each other, and then we would take tubes of paint and we would sniff it. And if you guess the color right, everyone else had to take a shot.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And if you if you guess the color wrong, you had to take the same number of shots as the people that were sitting around you. Sometimes it was two, sometimes it was five. Yeah. And you you get to know your oil paint smells. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

What was the I gotta ask, what was the hit rate? Like what perc, how how often were most of you right? Uh when we first when we first started, 40, 60.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Okay, 40 60 wrong. Yeah. 40 correct. But then you you just do it more realize earth-based colors have a distinct smell. Metal-based colors have a distinct smell.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Lead white, I you know, I don't recommend sniffing lead white, but it has a very, very distinct odor compared to titanium white or zinc white.

Studio Rituals And Paint Smells

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I did a little bit of huffing in my my own years, but it was purely for the effect. Um that was that was about it. That's uh as with most drinking games, though, that's the you know, the the point is kind of to have fun and and ultimately get to that place where we we've all had enough or more than enough. It's interesting, you know, you talk about getting a little antsy. The word I always use is twitchy. I get I get a little twitchy when I haven't had a chance to make for a while, you know, for whatever reason. And it's interesting to tie that back together to the quote itself. There's always a way to make marks, you know, even when we're away from our studio. I had obviously read through these before we hopped on here over the last couple of days, the ones that you sent over. And I was just thinking about as a kid whittling wood and just making marks, or finding like old stumps and just kicking the bark off in certain you know, patterns, or playing baseball as a kid and t-ball or whatever, and and drawing in the dirt. I was thinking I got the biggest smile because I was thinking about this this morning. We we got some some frost and some snow last night. So even when I'm like scraping the ice and frost off my windshield, the first pass is is definitely artistic in my own way. I'm making ultimately the goal is to just clear the field of seat, you know, to the windshield, obviously. But but just like all those all those little things, you know, that that we do just to sort of like scratch that itch. And obviously, perfect world, we'd all get to spend eight to twelve uninterrupted hours in the studio, you know, every day that we wanted to, but it's a good proxy, just making marks. Let me ask you, what do you when you can't be in your studio, you know, doing what you normally do, what are some of the things that you do to scratch that itch?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

I think about other ways I could be making art. I not necessarily have figured out a way to do them yet, but film has always been sort of floating around in my brain. Sculpture has always been floating around in my brain. I'm probably going towards sculpture more because I have this weird hobby now where I dig for and collect antique bottles. So most of the bottles that my friends and I find, here, I'll actually I'll show you one right here. So this is a old gin flask, not flask, but an old gin bottle from probably the 1880s. Wow. That we found intact. Yeah. This is rare though. Right. Most most of what we find are parts of a of the top of the glass, the bottom, just a random shard. So I've been thinking about okay, how would I take those and similar to the collage work that I make, sort of piece them together into something that is uniquely mine, but then that you know that requires room, and I don't have a lot of room at the time or currently. Yeah. That requires uh knowing how to manipulate glass, which which I don't know yet, but I'll get there eventually. Come on up. I got space for you. Oh, yeah, I'll just I'll just drive on up. Just swing on by. This quote is from the early, early 90s when she was still a student in London and she was just sort of coming into her own. And painting as a main medium was not in vogue at all. It was very conceptual, it was very installation-based, and that's why she says, I'm not anti-conceptual art. I don't think painting must be revived exactly. Art reflects life and the lives of full algorithms and so on. But it just didn't really speak to her and what she was doing. Like painting was the thing that she gravitated toward, much to not the not the demise, but against the advice of professors and other art professionals at the time. She just forged her own path, painting giant bodies, making them huge paintings, and then just going on that path full force. And of course, now she is where she is today because of that. But also with with Jenny is that like if you see her work in person, it is a very, very physical thing you're witnessing. It's not just smooth strokes like you're looking at a classical painting from Europe and the 1700s. I mean, she's in there physical. I mean, it just the way the paint dries, and you can see the drips and the way gravity has just done its work. Yeah, that she put a lot of physical effort into this painting, and that's part of it as well. Yeah. It's the it's the mark making and not just how the paint looks on the canvas.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Is she an influence for you? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I see that for sure. Yeah, some of the bigger work I've been doing recently, there's a there's a lot of her in there, just just my own personal reasons of loosening up and see if I can, you know, take some of that magic that she has and sprinkle it a little bit into mine.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah. I actually I wanted to ask you a follow-up question on the um, you know, kind of taking the show on the road or or doing the whatever scale down quicker version when we don't always have you know full access to our studio. Yeah, I know you've been working in charcoal some. I know you do a lot of collage work. Like, are those the types of things that you do outside the studio in preparation for the work?

Making Outside The Studio

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I do both. So some of the preparatory sketches are just collages and charcoals like you were speaking about, but then I've done just large-scale charcoals as preps for painting, and then I look at it and go, you know what? I think that'll just that's just how it is. Yeah. That's it just stands on its own. And I I did a painting a couple of years ago at a a live event. So it was a it was a just a big night market, and part of the the the you know, the party was artists doing live painting. So I was out there making this work, and everyone's using spray paint acrylics and they're doing fun, happy stuff, and I'm doing a I'm doing sort of an illustration of a man in a boat being bitten by a vampire as his friend is drowning with charcoal and spray paint. I I'll send you a picture of it later. And there was, and of course, everyone is watching you paint, like there's a couple thousand people, and a child came around the corner and he started crying, and I heard his mother say, uh, Charles or whatever his name is. Charles, what's wrong? I said, Oh, mommy, I don't like vampires. And this kid just starts bawling in front of my painting. I'm like, all right. Tough it out, kid. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Schnabel And The Unknown Outcome

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Welcome to life. Welcome to life, kid. We all gotta deal with vampires, all right? It's just the reality of life. I mean, real or metaphorical. I mean, they're there. Isn't that the truth? That's funny. I I've done that a couple times now. I've made work at large events and I've had a similar experience of other mural artists or yeah, I mean, just artists that are very accustomed to working outside on flat flat surfaces quickly, you know, with spray paint and doing what I do. I think at this at this one event I was using mostly billboard tarps and plastic and resin, and people would come by and just kind of like, what it, what do you got going on? Just kind of like, this is not what they're doing. I'm like, that's one of these things is not like the other. That's kind of the idea, but yeah. Let's talk about this Julian Schnabel quote. Yeah. What's interesting about making art is that you take everything you know about it and you bring it up to that point and you start making a physical thing that addresses what that is. And when you do it, you don't know anything about it, if it's gonna work or not work.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah. Every time you step into the studio, I mean, you're you're essentially rolling the dice. You're you're buying a lottery ticket or a scratcher, and that sort of exhilarating thing about it, and equally terrifying thing about it, is that this I'm something I'm gonna put so much effort into may or may not work. Most likely won't work. Yeah. But I I go for it anyway. And he's right. I mean, you you take everything that you have in your being up until that point, and now you're confronted with something that you don't know if it's going to work.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

And you're not even sure what you're doing, you're not sure how you're gonna get to some finish line, if there isn't even is a finish line in regard to your work or this particular piece, and you just have to you just have to go for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah. Yeah, so Jeff, that's interesting. I I wanted to ask about this uh anyway. You're I think one of the first figurative artists that we've had join us, given the figurative nature of your work, working from collage or sketches as sort of your your source for you. How much of the process or the the mystery of the unknown that that Julian's talking about here, how much of it is you know, execution of the original vision, and how much of it is discovery and the piece sort of unfolding as it goes?

Charcoal Preps And Public Painting

SPEAKER_00 15:46

That is a fantastic question. At this point, it's 50-50. I will intentionally leave holes in my sketches so that I figure it out when I'm working, so that I because if I'm just replicating what I made in a smaller form, I should just make the smaller form. I mean, there's no reason to scale it up, in my opinion. And my work prior to 20 probably 15 was very straightforward realism. Every brush stroke was accounted for, every lighting choice was very intentional. There was zero improvisation, it was how do I get from point A to point Z? What is the straightest path? And I enjoyed it and I did really well with it, but I kept hitting the wall of not only is this way of working stifling, but I'm not really bringing anything new to the conversation. And I think that is one of the issues I have personally with realism or photorealism. Yes, you're an amazing technical artist, so what? Anyone can learn great technique and do great technical paintings, but where are you in that equation?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And that's that's the problem that I was running into, and that's what I wasn't doing in regard to this Schnabel quote. I wasn't going in there with a sense of, I don't know how this is gonna turn out. Like I knew exactly how it was going to turn out. Yeah. And it was very stifling, and and in order to do that, I totally blew my life up and started on the path that I am now took a lot of turns. But that's how I got there, that's what I think about, and I and I like thinking about his his discovery of the plate painting medium where he had something and he dropped it, and I was like, hmm. Interesting. That's different. And then because if you look at his work prior to the plate paintings, like they're they're really abstract, really, in my opinion, overly conceptual. But then he just like he eventually went back to that road, but he had to do the plate paintings first to really have that second act of his painting become what it is.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Was when you made that shift, was that a conscious choice that you sort of alright, you drew a line in the sand and said, alright, that was then this is now, or was it more of a gradual evolution over time?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

It was an immediate shift. Like once I needed to make the change, I just made the change. But it the change didn't actually manifest into something interesting. I just needed, I knew I needed to change my life in that moment. So it was jump off the cliff first without any parachute or even any sort of device to slow down the wind.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

It was just jump, and then somehow I'm eventually gonna slow down or I'm or I'm going to hit something soft and it's gonna be bumpy. Yeah. But event eventually I'll I'll find my way, and that that's what happened. And once I found my way, I realized all the things that I was thinking about as I was falling could be put into the work. Yeah. And then that's that's how I got where I am.

Leaving Holes For Discovery

Tsai Guo Qiang And Alchemy

SPEAKER_02 19:27

We'll come back to that. I think there's yeah, I've got more questions on that, but I think it's gonna come up in some of the future quotes that you've got.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

My work is like a dialogue between me and unseen powers, like alchemy. Tai Guol Chien. So I saw his work at the power station of art when I spent a summer in Shanghai about 10 years ago. And when I tell you my mind was blown and I was never the same, I do it was like the first time I saw Carvaggio in a slide presentation in an art history class. Like an atomic bomb went off of my brain. And it was like, what is this? I'd heard of his work. And like for those of you that that don't know his work immediately, think of the opening ceremony at the 2000 Beijing Olympics when there's all these crazy fireworks displays going off and their patterns. That's him. Yeah. So one one of his primary mediums is fireworks and gunpowder, which is just like I would never think to use that as a medium at all. But he also does sculpture, he also does huge installations. And I I saw the work, I'm like, what am I doing with my life with Sky? Like, I I am a tiny ant, and this God is is walking around, he's come down from Olympus, and he's yeah, he's blessing all of us. But it's very similar to the Schnabel quote where you go in to do something, you don't quite know how it's going to work out, these things just seem to flow out of nowhere, and you're you're in this flow state, and then you take a step back and you think, where did this come from?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Like who who or what is channeling through me? And it is a it is a lot like alchemy. Yeah. Like you you you just got these these potions you're trying to make work, you're trying to turn lead into gold, and you just get inspiration, and then it's like, oh, I is that gold? Like d I just make gold? Did I just do an impossible thing chemically? And then you r translate that to your work, and it it's magical. And sometimes it's really scary. Yeah because you you don't know how you got there but you're there, and you know. Sometimes when I when I finish the work and it's it's on the money, like little the hairs on the back of my neck will flare up. And you're like, Oh, oh, this is like now I'm on to something.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

You you know what that's like.

Intimidation And Artist Comparison

SPEAKER_02 22:08

You've you've been there many times. Of course. I've definitely had a lot of experiences like that. I mean, what just popped to mind when you when you were saying that, I'm thinking about the first time that I stood in front of an El Ant Suey Play and it's joy, it's elation, it's the fear. I'm thinking about uh a quote that I come back to all the time, a Jack Wooden quote that we've discussed before in the podcast with Jamel and others, but put the fear of God in these paintings you stand and the scale, the materiality, the pro like all of it. But yeah, feeling like an ant, just like a look like and so yeah, so for sure we've all had those experiences more than once. For you, what what do you do with that, right? Because I I think there's there are some there's a few different ways that we can respond to having those moments. Personally, I think in the moment, my initial response is just like what you said, what am I what am I doing? Like what's what's the point? Yeah. What what could I possibly add to the conversation? What could I possibly bring to the table that is is unique or special or whatever authentic? I think over time, here I am answering the question that I asked you. How do you great great interview, Nathan? Uh nice work. How do you respond in those moments? Uh do with that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Well, there there was a time where my own depression and anxiety would get the best of me and I would just sort of just shut down.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And I would just feel terrible about myself. But then as I've gotten older, I've found ways to deal with that. And one of the things that helps me is that there was a time where Tsai Guo Chien probably felt like that. Looking at the work of another artist and thinking, what's what's the point? What can I add? What could I possibly do? And it helps to remember that the people that we read about, that we look up to, that have had these amazing careers that make this phenomenal work. One, they didn't get there overnight. It took them time, they had a lot of help. And two, they're people just like us. They have fears, they have wants, they have needs, they have desires, they have anxieties. Like I've I've heard people like someone we'll talk about later in the pod, Carrie James Marshall talking about doubts. Like, you have doubts? Yeah. Like Carrie James Marshall has doubts. Yeah. And I and I've heard uh other artists say the same thing. Like, yeah, I I'm I was terrified to meet so-and-so because I had looked up to them my whole life and I always felt inadequate and little tangent. Do you know the author Simon Sinek? I do. Yeah, so he has talked about this many times where he used to check the the Amazon ratings of a certain author. Do you know you know the speech I'm talking about? Yeah. Okay, where where he would check the Amazon listings of another author that was in his similar field, and he would feel great when he was on top and they'd feel like sad when his when his rival would edge up and then they just go back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

And he, you know, he was he hated this guy and he felt so inadequate. So they just so happened to be on the stage at the same time at this conference, and Simon says essentially, I feel very intimidated by you. All your strengths are all my weaknesses, and I don't know what to do with that. And the other guy says, Funny, I feel the same way about you. And then and then they just had this great dialogue, and now they're good friends. And that has helped me when I see an artist's work out in the wild, and it's amazing. Oh, yeah, this is another human being that's just trying to figure it out like the rest of us. That that's it. It doesn't always work. I mean, I s I will still go into this spiral of, oh God, I'm terrible. Oh, like why do I even bother? But those that voice is not as loud as it used to be when I was younger.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

That's such an important thing to realize. Before they were gods, they were mortals. And if you ask them, they would not, they'd identify as a as a as a very mortal flawed.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Maybe, maybe Julian Schnabel might not. Yeah, there's a couple. I think Schnabel and Coons, I think, yes, I am a god. There's a couple.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, what's his name? Irish. He does the kind of stripe lock paintings. Oh, Don Scully? There it is. Yes. Yeah. Certainly identifies as a god.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah. That that's debatable. That's debatable.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Self-identified. He might throw an uppercase G in there. Uh while Yes, but with very few exceptions, you know, for the rest of us, you know, and that and that's where going through and and really peeling back the layers, right? So like doing the research and spending time with the biographies, the autobiographies, listening to interviews, listening to them speak about their work and about their life's experience, that's where we really get the perspective of like, oh, you too? Okay. All right. Good. What's that like for you? I mean, do is that something that you spend a lot of time doing the research and and really learning about the historical and just personal context for the work of the artists'.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Oh, yeah. I I I love digging into artists' bios. Not only do I like to look at their CV for things that I think I could use in my life, but I I just like to hear where they grew up and how they came to be an artist. Because some some of them they knew when they were children that this is what they were supposed to do with their lives, and others had careers and it just sort of stumbled upon it. Well, they they didn't really start until they were later in life, or like someone like uh like again, like Schnabel, like he he went to New York with the sole purpose of making it in the art world and finding his voice, but it took him a while. He he worked as a cook, he did odd jobs, same with Chuck Close, who we'll talk about later. He was a cab driver. And you know, Chuck is interesting because he he was making work and getting all this press and not selling anything. But but the gallery beliefs so strongly in his work they said, don't give it time. People just they're just not ready yet. Right. But just keep making the work, which which is weird because this life, you can have all the fame and notoriety in the world and still be broke as shit. Sure. Yeah. Like that most famous, famous artists, it's only within the last maybe 10, 15 years that people really started to make money. Most of them have teaching jobs.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Right.

Carrie James Marshall On Solving Problems

SPEAKER_00 29:29

That they're they're tenured professors somewhere, or maybe they have a spouse that is well off, so they don't have to work as much. But yeah, most of them have jobs. Like again, Carrie James Marshall was a teacher and everything else for decades before people started to pay attention to his work.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Let's talk about that quote that you've got.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Sure. Like when I say that I do research on artists, I listen to lectures, I listen to talks, and Carrie James Marshall, I could hear him talk about anything and just be engaged. So I'll I'll put on a lecture of whatever he's doing in the background as I'm working, but I can't find the exact quote. So this quote is sort of the essence of something I heard him say in a lecture, and once I heard it, it was just seared into my brain, and it's one of those things that I think about all the time, and it haunts me in a good way. So this is sort of the essence of the quote. In order for an artist to have an impact, the kind of impact that gets them into the canon, they need to find a problem or a niche that only their work can solve. The work solves a problem so convincingly that it can't be argued against by one or two influential critics or one or two influential collectors. It is apparent to everyone that this artist has solved that problem. And the problem is solved in such a way that it is impossible to talk about that period of time or movement without discussing the work of said artist. We can't discuss pop art without mentioning who? Warhol or Liechtenstein. We can't talk about Italian Baroque without mentioning Carvaggio. We can't talk about abstract expressionism without Pollock. I spent a lot of time in museums wondering why the people in the paintings didn't look like me. And when I was old enough to do something about it, I went about solving that problem. Carrie James Marshall. I heard this him say this quote, the essence of this quote, after I saw mastery at LA Mocha in 2016, and on that drive back, it was the same feeling I had the first time I saw Sai Gw Tien's work. It's like, I'm an ant, I'm an unworthy, what am I doing? But it was different because I thought about, okay, I'm painting, lots of people paint. People could stop painting for an entire year all around the planet, and there would still be more than enough work to discuss for the next a hundred years. But if I'm painting and I'm going to go down this road, what am I going to say? What am I going to do that puts me in the big leagues? What is a problem that only I think my work can solve? And he's absolutely right. You can't talk about certain periods of time without disasking certain artists. There may be people that make niche work, but the big dogs, they found that problem and they fixed it, and that's it. Duchamp's ReadyMates, there was virtually nothing before it in regard to that idea and that object. And once he took that genie out of the bottle, it can't go back in. It's a very, very, very, very heavy thing for any artist to think about. And I know artists that I've discussed this quote with, they're like, man, I I can't I can't do that. So I'm just gonna make my work and s and see where it falls. But I I would like to have a bigger impact. Because it's not just you're not just looking at someone's art, you're looking at the thoughts and ideas and the intellect of another human being that put them in a certain combination, in a certain way, because it had to make sense to them. So what are they thinking about? What are they doing? What are they discussing? What message are they trying to convey to me? What really matters to them in this piece that I'm looking at is what they fully intended on display. Because again, Duchamp, the final journey of the piece is taken by the audience. Once it leaves my studio, there's only so much I can do. But there is a certain path that you can go down where you can force people to at least meet you halfway in what you're doing. And I have that, I have this quote, like it was easier to give it to you because I have it printed on a piece of paper and it's right there in the studio. And I think about it, I'm like, ah fuck. Like it's like this, like he's looking at me. It's like a meme. Like like some older person is looking down at you from the clouds, like what if my grandma knew I was doing this right now? You know. But it feels like that. It feels like these eyeballs are the weights of our history is looking at me. Yeah. And I I have to make it count, or at least attempt to make it count.

Jeff’s Focus On Whiteness And Race

SPEAKER_02 35:10

What problem are you trying to solve with your work?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Oh. In regard to the issues of race, the history of racism, how it's changed over time, how it shaped the themes and desires of the country based on economics and politics? I don't see very many artists that look like me tackling it from the perspective of looking like me. So how was the definition of white person even conceptualized? Where did it come from? What forced it into the lexicon? How did that change over time? And then how did that construct affect my family over time? And then how has that affected the way that I walk through the world, the way that I think about things, the way I interact with people? And, you know, how do I repair some of the terrible things that the construct of racism has done to my my psyche? Because I I can say that I'm a nice, liberal, progressive white dude, but things will still come up into my mind. And I go, what the fuck? Where did this where did this come from? It's like a little like a little cartoon devil has popped in my shoulder. Like, what are you where did you come from? What are you doing here? So it's it's part historical narrative, it's part historical sort of subjective conceptualism, and then it's a lot of it is is self-repair. And then doing that through art so that that kind of conversation is easier to have. Because it's one of the most fraught conversations you can have with virtually anybody. Sure. But art is one of those beautiful things that it could take a very volatile subject and make it palatable and even relatable. Think of any book that has that's about trauma or something terrible that that is beautiful, songs, written words, art, dance, insulations, any anything that that people can take from and and make digestible and beautiful, but also real at the same time. And I don't know if I will solve this problem, but I can at least get the ball rolling and contribute to making the world a better place.

China Experiences And Unequal Privilege

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah. That's beautiful. So can you talk about Jeff? I know you know you spent a lot of time in China as you know, a minority. How did how did your experience there inform your work?

SPEAKER_00 38:11

It it was very odd. I mean, first of all, I I loved I loved my time in China. I met some amazing people. I saw artwork that that changed me forever. I have lifelong friends. I I I loved getting lost and figuring out how to get somewhere. But yes, I was sort of the odd man out in the city where I was in. I mean, it's it's not like it was in a small provincial town. Well, I I was in a small provincial town on China standards. So I first landed in a city of of Fushan, which is the is in a southern Gr Guandon province with a city of only six million people. Yeah. So but there were there were places where I would go visit friends or I would go to a wedding with a coworker, and people would come out of their houses and like look at me, like, who is who is this this foreigner here? Because they would they've only they'd only seen Westerners, particularly white westerners, on television or in movies. Like that that's how isolated some parts of China were. I mean, I had pitch people stop and take pictures with me on the street. I'm like, what are you doing? Like I am nobody. Right. And okay, here's another funny story. So in China, they will pay foreigners to go to parties because the idea of having a foreigner there seems more elite and exclusive and more interesting. Wow. So I was paid the first time I did it, I was paid to pretend that I work for this cosmetics company based in yeah, based in London. So this so this guy he brings us in, he debriefs us, he said, okay, you work for the skincare company, yada yada yada, you're based in London. Like, what about my very not British accent? They're like, oh, don't worry about it. Like, what if people want to talk to me and ask about the brand? Don't worry, no one's gonna talk to you. Like, well, then why am I here? That you're just it just it'll be fun. Right. Decoration. Yeah, decoration. But then, like, what about the girl over there who I can clearly hear speaks English with a London accent? Oh, we just don't talk to her. What are you doing? Like, all right, fine. So I just it sounds weird. I just stood around with a tie and looked nice and posed for pictures. And then they had this big dinner, and then a guy gets on the mic and says, Welcome Ben and Mr. Jeff from London. Then we get up at this table, and people are clapping, we're like, All right, hello, and then we sit down and we eat, and then they usher us up to the stage, and then evidently this skincare company has donated money to a local children's charity. So then they're we're just holding this giant novelty check on stage, like and then people are lining up to take photos with us. So underneath all that, guess which kind of foreigners do not bring prestige and fanciness to an event? Dark skinned foreigners. So even though I was the odd man out, this still afforded me privileges and luxuries that other people didn't have. So before I got to the work I was making, this had been building for a long time. Like I I just had a a show and the title of the show is A Special Kind of Existence. So I knew from probably 10 or 11, based on the way people were treating me, that it was a special kind of existence. But when you live in America, because there are so many dudes that look like me, it can just sort of fade from your mind. Like you're like you're just sort of wallpaper, you're in the background. But when you're in China and it's very apparent that you were not Chinese, and your Chinese that you're trying to learn is terrible, but you're still treated as though you're special, it's it's weird. Like it it just sort of reinforced, like, okay, I am on the right path. I don't know why I had to go to another country to realize this, but it it just set the wheels further in motion. And then you then you watch how Chinese people treat their own if they happen to be darker skinned or have what wider noses or fuller lips. Like I would watch the people I work with run from the main offices to the cafeteria across a courtyard in the middle of the summer, like doing this, because they didn't want the 15 yards of sun exposure because having fair skin has such a prestige to it. That it's it's it's it's weird and again, not weird, yeah, because that's that's the way the world functions, unfortunately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Our next quote that you got for us from Lisa Yuskovic. I think great art goes beyond the control of the artist. In some ways, art often makes itself and reveals things about that artist that maybe the artist is not fully conscious of.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

And very much in in the theme of the previous quotes is that you often don't know how you got there when you're making your work and often not fully conscious of. And in relation to Lisa's work, she's it I find that quote to be interesting, which is why I chose it, because Her work is figurative, it's narrative. I don't see a lot of her work that seems like it was left up to chance. It's it's very intentional. You're very much looking at her intellect and her thought patterns about rebellion and sexuality and the pressure cooker things that women have to go through. So this quote was interesting when I found it. Because her work is very intentional. I I like I said I don't see a lot of accidents or subconscious things happening. Maybe the her color choices, perhaps. But uh we should have her on the podcast. And ask her. Let's call up David Swarner. It's like, hey man, can we get Lisa to talk to us, please?

Self Absorption Shame And Self Repair

SPEAKER_02 44:58

That would be fantastic if you can make that happen. We are all in. I'll make some calls. Let me um let me ask you what what has art revealed to you about yourself that you weren't previously conscious of? Oh. Listen, you can't bring the heat with a coat like this without being able to talk about it. I mean, there's there's depth here. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Uh I am not always a good person. That that's what making work has revealed about me, that I'm very self-absorbed. I tend to disregard people's emotions and needs and wants. I I can be kind of a jerk sometimes. A lot of times. Let's just let's just be honest. And I've I've had to figure out ways to unwind all of those things about myself.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

And also in the in the theme of my work that, you know, despite my amazing upbringing and my diverse grand friend group and the people I've loved, I have some ugly, terrible thoughts in my brain that I know my parents didn't consciously plant there, but they got in there somehow.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

And I f feel terrible and shameful and angry when I realize that they're in there, but I don't stay there. I actively do something about it. Yeah. And part of that is talking to people about the things that I feel and think that come up, and part of it is making artwork about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

It's it's one of the the tremendous gifts of being an artist is the space that it allows us for self-reflection, for introspection, for really considering things at a level that I would argue, well, just speaking from personal experience, is much more difficult, if not impossible, without that space. Certainly, plenty of people find space to do that in other ways, you know, than just art. But for me, art really introduced me to myself in ways that nothing else could. And I know that for certain because I was 40 already. Yeah, I was uh at least the age of a mature, fully formed adult when I really took this on full time and had that space to be able to do that. And it's such a gift. It's such a gift because I think that without that introspection, without that self-reflection, it's um it's really it's really difficult to even become aware of what's really bubbling underneath the surface to really dig in and peel those layers back, whatever it might be, let alone do anything about it. But it it's a tremendous gift that that we all have as artists. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

And I and I can really like this this quote and what you just said, I really see that in your work. Because not only are you constructing things that people tend to just sort of toss away and oh, we don't have any use for this anymore, and then you're in a way deconstructing them at the same time. So it's it's it's building, it's digging, it's building, it's digging, it's breaking down, it's building to to reveal something in that that sweet spot, that essence of this is who I am, this is what I want to say, maybe even to a certain extent, this is the kind of man I want to be in the future, so that as crazy as the world is, I can leave behind a legacy for my children to look at and believe in and think, you know, despite everything, I want to give you the ability to make something of your life that that I love you and I tried. And it's not always going to be perfect, but you will be okay.

Chuck Close And Showing Up

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Thanks for saying that. You're welcome. It's the digging, for sure. When you were talking about you're digging for bottles, I just that that the process of discovery, you mentioned I wrote this down uh when you said lottery ticket, that scratch off of just like this might be the spot, this might be the thing that if we keep digging, scratching, burning, carving, scraping, what's that gonna reveal? I will never tire of that. I will do that until my my my dying breath. And we're all doing a version of that, you know, with with our work for sure. Yeah. Should we talk about Chuck? Yeah, good old, good old Chuck. This is a quote that has uh definitely appeared on the pod before, and we'll probably again because it's that powerful. But we're gonna hear Mr. Musser's take on it. Inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part and a bolt of lightning to strike you in the brain, you are not gonna make an awful lot of work. All the best ideas come out of the process, they come out of the work itself. Chuck close.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

You know, I don't remember exactly, but my father sort of said something similar to this when uh I would get all mopey and depressed and self-absorbed and and complaining about my circumstances. And it just just go paint, just put all that into work. Just just just get to work. Just just just figure it out. It took me years to actually listen to him and absorb it, and then I found this quote. I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah, no, like I've never occasionally like an idea like, ooh, that would be cool, will pop out of nowhere, but then unless you actually take that idea and put it in action, you don't know if it's gonna work or not. And you just have to get to work. Because art is like anything else, it is work. It is a job, it doesn't always pay the bills in this capitalistic thing we're a part of, but it is still work, it is still a job, it is still worth pursuing just because it's valuable. It may not have any monetary value, but it's still something that you should do and at least most of the time enjoy. I don't always I don't always enjoy one-hand painting, especially when it's not working, like all of us, but but it's it's still something that you should put the time and effort into.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Well, Jerry Saltz says, get to work, you big babies. Yeah. And I am absolutely a big baby a lot of the time. So when you, Jeff, are being a big baby, what do you do to anchor yourself to this fact, this truth that that Chuck Close talks about?

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Uh well, I also have a nice Jerry Saltz quote. Like I you can't see it, but I mean I can still read it even though there's a bunch of paint smears on it. It's it's stop whining and get to work. If I'm not in the mood where I just can't draw or sketch because, you know, I'm at my day job or I'm doing something else, I at least put th the thoughts into motion in my head, okay, all right, the painting that I've been working on, this section isn't quite working. How can I solve it when I can get back to the studio? Or, you know, this this idea's been sort of floating around. What if I did this to at least get the ball rolling with this new idea? And if sometimes that that doesn't even work. Okay, what am I doing right now when I'm not feeling good? Okay, am I able to see, smell, hear, touch, taste? Yes. Am I able to walk? Yes. Is the sun out? Yes. Does it feel good on my skin? Yes. Just help to being present and being grateful for all the things that are happening in that exact moment gets me out of the funk of whatever's happening isn't working, and I I feel how I'm feeling, and it's it's usually not positive in that moment. Maybe huff some paint. Yeah, maybe huff some paint. Just put on a blindfold, get a get a shot of Don Julio on standby just in case, you know. I mean, it's just me. I mean, I don't have to put the blindfold on, I can just close my eyes.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's something that happened, there's a difference between group drinking games and and solo drinking games.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah, we've got words for that. But wait a minute, we we need to talk if it's just if it's just you, sniff, stiffen pain with tequila shots.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

Well, what I'm hearing though, from from what you're saying, Jeff, is I mean, it's gratitude, right? It's being anchored in, okay, I get to do this. I don't have to do this. This is a gift. I get to do this. And starting from that place of even when you're not feeling it, you know, when you talk about getting the ball rolling, what are we really talking about? We're talking about momentum. And that's what I love about this Chuck Close quote is we have to self-generate that momentum. We can't wait to be pushed by, you know, that lightning bolt.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

I love that. Yeah, and also in regard to being an artist, no one's asking you to make this. Yeah. No one's asking for paintings about the history and construct of whiteness. No one's asking for it. I mean, there's like there's I didn't see any ads on Craigslist. Uh there wasn't a call to art about it in art in America. It's it's just something I have to do. And if if you're an artist and you're just listening to this and it's something you have to do because you've you'll feel like you're you'll go crazy or your life just won't be fulfilling if you don't, then you know what I'm talking about. You have to do it. There is no other choice. Yes, you may have to do something to survive and pay your bills. You've got kids, you've got grandkids, you've got a car payment, you've got a mortgage, you've got credit card bills, you owe money to the drug dealers, whatever your circumstances. You will do what you do have to do to survive. Yeah. But the art part of you, the creative part of you, you can never shut that off because it would be detrimental to your life if you did. So again, this you have to get to work. You have to make the work because there is no other choice.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Next quote you got for us, Jeff, from IWay Way. My definition of art has always been the same. It's about freedom of expression, a new way of communication. It is never about exhibiting in museums or about hanging it on the wall.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Very similar to what I just said. No one's asking you to make this work. Yeah. You you have to do it because you have to do it. And museums are awesome. Getting a show in a museum is great. Going on a residency is fantastic. Being in a gallery, selling work through gallery is awesome. But that should not be your primary motivation. It's good to be business minded now, because it's art is is a business, it is a game, it is a hustle. But if all of that didn't exist, would you still be making your work?

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Would you still feel compelled to go to construction sites and get materials and then learn about these different plastics and metals and burning points, and okay, if I get this too hot, it's gonna explode my face. So I need to find out what happens if I take the temperature down just a little bit where I can work with it, but it's not a terrible hazard to m to myself. Also, within Ai Weiwei's life, he is a superstar, but there are a few people that you know still don't know who he is. He is from mainland China. He has done a lot of work that the Chinese government does not like, and he's gotten in a lot of trouble for it. Like they they've taken his passport multiple times. He was jailed for tax evasion, allegedly. I'm not sure if he's even been back in the last few years. I think he lives primarily in Berlin. He would make work. I mean, he has to make work, and he wouldn't be making work even if he wasn't a superstar. Yeah. And he and he makes work to the detriment of his freedom. I mean, you can't get more punk rock and badass than that to the point where a government wants to shut you down. Yeah. Yeah, you know, all right, you've re- you've reached another level there.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

I want to make a shitty comment about Damien Hurst, but I don't want to.

Damien Hirst And The Fear Of Being Ignored

SPEAKER_00 58:00

We we can. I mean, he's I mean he's you know, he I I have many, many issues with Hearst. Yeah, but I I like some of his earlier work. I I think I think Damien Hurst is kind of what happens to bands that sell platinum on their first album. They get too much money too fast, and then they have too many yes men around them, and then they just keep doing what they think is going to get their lifestyle perpetuated and going. And like there was another quote that I wanted to use, but it didn't really seem appropriate, and it was something along the lines of I think money can be a form of art, and I'm around a lot of money, so I use it. All right. All right, daddy war books. All right. I mean, I mean, but he is one of the world's wealthiest artists, so he's you know, he's he's done something right.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

You talk about music, I'm thinking about that. Oh, I forget what what Tom Petty song it's from. But there's a line, the the AR man says, I don't hear a single. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, come on, we need more. We need more of that that thing from before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Yeah, I I've heard uh I've heard interviews where George Harrison from the Beatles was talking about the days where they were just on fire, and he and John and Paul would sit around and say, Let's ride a swimming pool. And you know, okay, and then they would just ride it and it was a hit, and they get a swimming pool. Just like that. Just just like that.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

All right, let's talk about the hearst quote that you wanted to discuss, which is I have always been aware that you have to get people listening before you can change their minds. Any artist's big fear is being ignored. So if you get debate, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Yeah, being being ignored, oh God, I I rem I remember critiques at school, and it was well, cr critiques at art school are famously brutal. And the ones in Chicago that I participated in were were quite quite brutal. But the brutalist critiques were silence. Or huh. And then that would be it. Just it's just a furrow of the eyebrows and then a huh. After you know, you've you pour your heart and soul into something. Right. Like ignor ignorant, not ignorance, but being ignored or indifferent, so that's that's that's the death rattle. Yeah. I mean, if if your work can just if it's just too plain and calm, and oh, to take it back to K. James Marshall, he talks about one of his transformative moments when he was in his mid to late twenties and he was at Otis at in LA, and he was in a show and it got reviewed in the LA Times, and the critic says about his work that, you know, it's nice and it's interesting, but it sort of fades into the background. It looks like everything else that's being made. And he said that hit him like a lightning bolt. And he felt this sting of not necessarily being ignored, but it not really making an impact, not sort of any dialogue or interesting things, no debate coming from the work like Hearst talks about. You have to get people stirred up and interested, and he is a master of getting people stirred up and getting people interested, taking entire sharks and putting them in tanks, and then that's the piece. Or or a cow's head in a giant cube being devoured by tens of thousands of flies, that's the piece. Like a woolly mammoth skull or skeleton gold plated, and then put in a tank of formaldehyde, that's the piece. I mean, it it he's definitely hasn't been ignored for the past 20 years. I think some of his stuff should have been ignored. Like, this is some rich guy nonsense, but are you suggesting that his dot series doesn't move you? His dot series doesn't move me, his pharmaceutical series doesn't move me, the spinning plate patterns, the giant unknown civilization sculptures that he had in Venice a couple years ago. Yeah, I got millions of dollars were spent fabricating these things, and and like, ugh man, like why? Just my my personal bot. Or the beautiful inside my head, not the but the skull with all the the diamonds that were formed around it, and then it's allegedly sold for a hundred million dollars, but then it turns out it was just him and his buddies that were speculating on it to drive up the price, and then they actually bought it, so he actually bought it, which means no one actually bought it. Which is kind of that's a nice little conceptual ready-made sculpture hat trick that he used, but I too much cleverness, and it's like, I don't know, where's where's the meat and potatoes of this? But but look, we're we're debating it. We're talking about it.

Richter On Despair And Hope

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

So so it worked. And there's more I want to there's more I could and want to say, but I don't want to make this a Damian Hirst episode, so we'll we'll move on. A quote from Gerhardt Richter Of course I constantly despair at my own incapacity, at the impossibility of ever accomplishing anything, of painting a valid true picture, or even knowing what such a thing ought to look like. But then I always have to hope that if I persevere, it might one day happen. And this hope is nurtured every time something appears, a scattered, partial, initial hint of something which reminds me of what I long for, or which conveys a hint of it. Although often enough I have been fooled by a momentary glimpse that then vanishes, leaving behind only the usual thing. Especially for someone that's been in work as long as he has and and been in the in the public spotlight for as long as he has, I would be very curious to know when he said this. But regardless, I think, I mean, this really speaks to that doubt that we were talking about earlier. Someone at Richter's level having done what he's done, talking about despair at his own incapacity and sitting with the impossibility of ever accomplishing anything, but being driven by that hope, the scattered partial initial, I love that hint, what I long for, or which conveys a hint of it. And that's what we're chasing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

It's the the thing about human beings and the way that we have been wired is is to keep us not in survival mode, but to make sure that we survive and thrive no matter what happens. Like you can never eat a meal that is so amazing, you will never be hungry again.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

You can never be laugh so much that you'll never need to laugh again. You'll never make a painting that is so amazing you will never have to paint again. So this this survival loop that has been implanted in us also has the partial, sometimes whole part of self doubt and my own incapacity that that comes with the self assurance and the need to make it's it's it's two sides of the same coins the yin and the yang, the It's the both sides of the equation. It's it's you can't have one without the other unless you know you're Julian Schnabel or or uh or Sean Scully. You just make and everything is the solid gold goose egg. Yeah, that that that's what I I try to chase in the work I make. That that one thing that was unexpected that is just pure magic that I'm not even sure I can ever do it again. But I did it for that one moment, and now it's on to the next moment. And okay, here we go with the self-doubt. I even though I know I can do it, I even though I know that I've accomplished this, it still comes back. And that's that's the thing about being an artist with it just comes with the territory of loving what you do, having to do it, but then again, what wondering if you'll ever get to do it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:12

Well, it's the it's that it's that lottery ticket that you were talking about before. Scratch offs, probably a better uh metaphor with that, right? Like if you if you buy enough scratch-offs, you're gonna win something at some point. Yeah. You may not probably uh in all likelihood will not be ahead overall. But in the game that we're playing, we don't have to be, you know. You know those the the those scratch offs are purchased not with hard-earned money, but with our time and with our intention in the hope that we will once again turn that lead into gold and and have that aha moment of like, that's it, there's the magic. And we we keep chasing that. And that's that's it's beautiful when we can accept and go from uh as Churchill said, from from defeat to defeat with great enthusiasm.

Stand Up Comedy And Rewriting

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

You know? Yeah. I've heard stand-up comedians talk about it a lot where they they'll have a special or really good routine, solid hour. Right. And then it it does really well, and then oh god, what what do I have to write about now? Like how how can I even figure out what to talk about in my next special or my next routine? And then they they just they just keep writing. They they'll have the crescendo at a stadium, and then they'll do small clubs, and they'll just try shit out and note what works and what doesn't work, and then piece by piece, they'll get something new, and then the whole process starts all over again. Yeah. And it it's it's on par with with what we do, and it's very in the theme of this Richter quote.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

Yeah, I'm a big fan of stand-up. It's one of my favorite things actually when I'm in LA to go to the comedy store in New York, the comedy cellar, but to see some of these massive names that are just working stuff out, like watching, you know, having seen them at their best, watching or listening to their specials, when it's just completely refined and dialed, and it's just it's the it's obviously the best that's just been just honed over so much time, but then seeing them, it's one of the I mean it's one of the only, I think, probably, you know, creative mediums where you get to see the greats not be great. Yeah. It's really beautiful. I I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

And uh again, going back to earlier in the conversation, we were talking about everybody starts from somewhere. I saw Chappelle a lot in the late 90s when he would come to Sacramento, and they were s it was a small small club, like fifty seats maybe. Yeah, and maybe including the bar, maybe not. And a lot of a lot of the jokes like just floored people. But a lot of them you were like, haha, you get a chuckle, right? And then you could see that he was expect he was expecting a little a bigger response, but it didn't happen. And then he just rolled with the punches, and then I would see him again, and they're like, Oh, that's new. But and then I remember the framework of that old joke, which he I'm sure he tried out in other places, didn't get the response he wanted, modified it, brought it back a little bit more of a bump, brought it back, and then just kept refining it, and he goes on a major tour, and now it's it's just it's an assassin's blade.

unknown 1:10:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

And the whole the whole audience is just uh convulsing they're laughing so hard. And then you know, he and then he became the Chappelle that we all know.

Richard Serra And The Need For Play

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

All right, let's close this out with our last quote. Richard Serra. Oh, yes. Play is a necessary ingredient in art because there's a kind of wonder that goes on when you play. You're directing your activity toward a conclusion that isn't prescribed by a particular method.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

I didn't do a lot of playing in my work even seven or eight years ago. As as I've gotten older and a little bit more mature and I've started to let things go, I enjoy the process of not knowing what's going to happen in the work. And I'd real I really enjoy the mark making. And I've I'd always enjoyed it, but I didn't really hone in and dial into it when I was younger. And now there's there's marks and ways that I apply the paint that would have made me insane ten years ago because it because it just wasn't what I was trying to do at the time. But now it's it's fun. And even though I'm dealing in a very serious, often introspective subject matter, there's still an element of play in the application of the paint and just letting happen what happens in the moment. Like if you know Richard Serra's sculpture, it's large and it's daunting, yeah, and it takes up just a tremendous amount of just space. But if you really look at it, he's he's just making shapes, which is playful. So when I found this quote, I'm like, huh. I wouldn't expect Richard Serra to say that. But then the more I thought about it, like, well, that that makes sense.

Advice To Artists And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:12:49

Yeah. Play is so important. It's so it's interesting to hear you talk about that in the context of your work as well. But it's such a it's such a uh I would argue, necessary component for discovery, for figuring out and determining where where where could this go? What else could be possible? What else could I communicate through this visual medium that I'm attempting to communicate with? I love that quote. That's fantastic. Let's close with this, Jeff. What advice do you give artists when they ask or artists when you do talk? What's your just a little parting nugget of wisdom?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

Um, a tip, if you will. This could be an entire nother episode of uh advice for artists. I I would say that the best piece of advice I would give to a younger artist, or even if you're not so young age-wise, but you're but you're just starting out, if you know that this is something you must do, then do it. If you don't feel like you will be a fully realized human being, if you don't, then you were obligated to the rest of us to put whatever is inside you into your work so that we can see the work from a different perspective. I think the problem comes with people that think art is cool and trendy and it's exciting and fun, and it it makes me think of a Bukowski quote of like there's there's enough mediocre nonsense in the world. So unless you're all in, don't even bother. I think there is a lot of people that are in this world, their hearts not really in it. So I if this is what you want to do, then do it. Congratulations. Here's your honorary membership jacket, make sure it fits, try it on, now get to work.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

And that is not a finely tailored, bespoke dinner jacket. No. It's a work coat with holes in it. It's a it's a work coat.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Yeah. And it it may be very well made, it may be thick, like a nice car heart jacket you get at a construction site. Yeah. Or uh it just may be a sh like an old raggedy shirt that you make you make your own. Either way, just get your uniform on in whatever capacity that is, and get to work because the the world needs your work. And you need to make your work, so you need to share it with the rest of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:35

It's a great place to end. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us today. Um, my pleasure. It's been a pleasure. I really appreciate your friendship. Oh, Ditto. Uh it's this has been a real joy. So thank you everybody for joining us for today's episode of Just Make Art. We'll be back in a couple weeks, probably, with another episode. Bye bye.