What If Compliance Is The Wrong Goal?

We break down pathological demand avoidance (PDA) and why it often looks like defiance, even though it is rooted in anxiety and a need for autonomy. We share practical, ministry-friendly ways to lower pressure and help kids participate in church with dignity and real support.
• what PDA is and why it is often tied to autism profiles
• how loss of autonomy can trigger fight, flight, or freeze
• why traditional behavior plans and punishments tend to backfire
• reframing requests with choices and collaborative problem solving
• examples from church life like shoes, snacks, Bible reading, and transitions
• what to say instead of direct commands, plus neutral language for safety moments
If you want to dive deeper on your own, you can check out the indispensable-people blog or my books on Amazon called The Indispensable Kid or Gospel Accessibility and the Indispensable People.

Transcript

Why Disability Ministry Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hey, hey, my name is Tracy Coral, and welcome to Indispensable People. I'm a pastor, a teacher, a missionary, a mom, a wife, and I believe that every person should have access to the gospel so that they can know Christ, grow in him, and serve him with the gifts that he has given. Over 65 million Americans have a disability. That's 15 to 20% of every community. And over 85% of those individuals do not attend church. 90% of pastors believe that they are a disability-friendly church, but only 20% of parents and families agree. Let's dive deep into hard topics, big questions, perceptions, stereotypes, and so much more. Hey,

What Pathological Demand Avoidance Is

SPEAKER_00 0:53

hey, and welcome to this episode of Indispensable People. Today we're talking about pathological demand avoidance, otherwise known as PDA. It's been the topic of a lot of my research and kind of diving into what that looks like, how it impacts people, how it impacts ministry, and mostly because it's probably one of the diagnoses that I struggle with the most. Kind of don't question it because that would be like unbelievably offensive to my parents as the authoritarian. And so I it's something that's outside of my understanding. That doesn't mean it's not real. That doesn't mean it's not a true struggle of other people, but that does mean that I need to investigate more, understand more, and see how this impacts those who I serve and their lives. So if you look up a brief definition of it, it is often referred to as an like it it is very much tied to autism. And it has it's referred to as an autism profile or a pervasive drive for autonomy. It's anxiety-driven behavioral pattern where individuals exhibit extreme resistance to everyday expectations and requests. That means like breaking down to hey, go brush your teeth. Like that would be a potential standoff. So you would it it's not a standalone diagnosis, but rather recognized with a neurotype characterized by a highly sensitive nervous system. While it is seemingly on the outside, looks like it's rooted in defiance, right? Because that's the that's the outward sign of what we're seeing. It is you're making a request or you're giving a direction or you're asking for something to be done, and they are going, no. And you can almost seemingly tie it to ODD, which is oppositional defiant disorder, but it's actually not rooted in defiance, it's rooted in anxiety. So it's the avoidance becomes it's like an involuntary nervous system response, fight, flight, or freeze. And it's trigger triggered by the loss of autonomy. So basically, it is a person's recognition of not being in control and not in a domineering control sense, but the safety of feeling like I made this choice, I know what the choice is, I know how to do the choice, I know how to walk in it. And then this kind of comes in where somebody else says, Hey, can you do this? And then it triggers that fight, flight, or freeze. So there are different ways to, you know, work with this, work around it, work through it. And some of those include social strategies where individuals with this PDA profile use creative social tactics tactics to bypass demands such as distraction, role play, negotiation, or making excuses. So what is the full impact on a daily life? Okay, because listen, play these demands can be external or internal, where so it's affecting every piece and part of you where it is a perceived ask or whether whether it is a direct ask. And when the demand is perceived, the intense internal discomfort often leads to meltdown, panic attacks, or shutdowns. So how how do you manage it? How do you work around it? How do you work with it? How do you work through it?

Why Consequences Often Backfire

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Traditional behavior-based parenting and teaching strategies, it's a no-go. It's gonna be a backfire. It's not gonna work because again, the requests, the demands, the you're going in time out. If you don't do this, then you're gonna lose your game system, all of those kinds of things. It brings on this intense pressure and anxiety, which then is only going to equal more negative behavior or just an inability to complete the task that's being asked, where you really need to focus on support that reduces anxiety, increases flexibility, and honors the person's need for autonomy. So, how do you do that? Because I don't know about you, but those of us who grew up in the 80s and the 90s, we're going, listen, that sounds like a bunch of hubbub, hullabaloo, baloney, and an easy way for a kid to not have to do what they have to do. But here's the the here's the thing: it's not just about getting the task done, right? It's understanding what the need is to get there and how you can get there and get through it. So we do things like reframing requests. We present tasks that have open-ended choices. Or this is my less favored, you turn it into a game. You can't turn everything into a game. It's really, really hard. It takes up a lot of time, but it's really easy to reframe a request on how to do that. You can minimize the pressure, lowering the number of direct expectations in a given day or at a given time to prevent nervous system overload. Allowing the individual to feel involved in the decision making is going to be incredibly, incredibly important. I I know that my son does not have this diagnosis. However, when it comes to asking something of him or explaining something of him, we have to go about it in a certain way because he doesn't, because of his intellectual disability, he is protecting and covering a lot of the times, right? He doesn't want to look at like he doesn't understand or he doesn't under, he doesn't get what you're saying. And so he covers it and he'll do that by overcompensating and protecting that or responding in really not great ways so that he can kind of come out on top. So again, my son doesn't have this diagnosis, but we deal with some of this stuff on a regular basis. And I, we, when he was younger, you know, cleaning up the toys, it was, you know, it was a game, who can do it faster, you know, things like that. But as they get older, it is not as reasonable to do that. Again, that doesn't mean you can't try that strategy or that wouldn't work. But in a ministry setting, the ask or the directions come with a different weight than it does in a regular basis and living at home and that kind of thing, unless it comes to a safety situation. But playing games to accomplish, you know, an ask is more reasonable in a ministry setting than it is on a regular everyday basis in your home. And we always have to remember the core of ministry does change someone's behavior, right? Not for the same reasons that it does in a family setting or school setting, right? In a ministry setting, we want behavior to change because there's a heart change. So that's you know, that that's a completely different story than, you know, finding how to have a compliant child.

Reframing Demands With Real Choices

SPEAKER_00 9:55

So here's what, here's an example of what this kind of would look like. I don't know about you, but when our younger children come into church, there's something about their, they they all want to take off their shoes. And I always joke with them that it is, it must be holy ground, and that's why they have to be in in their in their feet and not their shoes. And so we might, as volunteers, say to them, put your shoes on right now. Mommy and daddy are coming. Okay. And that would trigger a response, like it might be, I don't want to put my shoes on right now. Oh my, you told me what's gonna happen, what's coming next. Now the anxiety is building. I didn't take care of that. What do I do? That kind of thing. So instead reframing it or changing the way that you present it, it could be mommy and daddy's coming. What do you think we should do to get ready? So it's giving them the option, giving them the choice and helping them to problem solve, but them being the leader of it. Okay, that's a very simple idea, a very simple way of looking at it. Another thing that is an example of this, but it is on the internal side. So it is like you're they're dealing with their own feelings, right? So they're feeling hungry, but the body's signal to eat feels like a demand. So it causes the person to avoid food. That seems, it really seems ridiculous. However, the demand builds anxiety, which leads to avoidance. So sticking to an eating schedule, preferred foods or choices of foods can help lead them to this. Now, here is kind of proof of the fact that this isn't a defiance issue, is when you come to pleasurable things, things that these kids enjoy and want to do or want to participate in. And I say kids because not because people with adults don't deal with this, but younger kids, the strategies that come along with that are gonna look a little bit different and sound a little bit different than adults. So on this particular episode, I'm focusing on younger kids. So, for example, they might want to play their favorite game, but they feel obligated to play their game, which triggers anxiety and avoidance, which is again seems silly. Like everything that we explain about this diagnosis seems contrary to everyday life, things that you've encountered, things that you've walked in. But again, we don't want them to miss out on pleasurable experiences because that gets triggered or that gets lost in translation. So, what can we do? We can offer choices, we can kind of give problem-solving pathways like, would you like this or would you like this? And that takes away that pressure, that anxiety, that kind of things. Here's another example. And I, as a parent, am totally guilty of this. You know, when we are visiting a family member, we're at someone's house and we're getting ready to leave, we're gonna say, okay, tell everybody goodbye, do this. Something like that is going to bring about some of that pressure and anxiety and that kind of thing. So, again, what are some strategies? How do you deal with that? I've already given you some, you know, choices are gonna be a big thing, problem-solving pathways are going to be helpful. You might have to distract, like just take off that anxiety by, you know, look, there's a bird outside. Or you can come up with, oh, I wish I could pick that toy up, but my back hurts today. That would then, you know, give them the opportunity to step in. And you might have to give some opportunities to lessen the sensory input. So it takes away some of those things, some of that pressure, some of that intensity, some of that anxiety.

Better Phrases For Church And Safety

SPEAKER_00 14:25

So here's a kind of examples of communication, what to avoid versus what to try. Okay, so a traditional approach, go pick up that toy. The PDA-friendly approach would be: I wonder if we should pick up that toy before mom and dad come. And this works because it offers a choice and removes the direct command. Another thing is it's snack time at church. If you don't eat your snack, then you don't get the treat. That would be a traditional approach. So the PDA-friendly approach would be the food is on the counter if you get hungry later, right? Because we're at church, it's a snack. I don't need you to have a snack, and I don't need you to have a dessert. Those are not necessary for your sustenance of life. And it removes the threat and ultimatum and it reduces the anxiety, and therefore, if they can choose it, it's again their autonomy to do so. Another option is you need to read that Bible verse. The next thing could be: I can't remember what the scripture said in such and such book. Do you think you could find it? It reframes the task, allows it to be collaborative if you're asking them to do it with you, but doing it in a way that gives them an option and opens the door. Another thing, and this is gonna come in contact. In contact, it's gonna come up in safety situations where asking individuals who have PDA, you know, it becomes a necessity. However, we might say stop doing that. And or we can highlight the problem with what they're dealing with. So for example, if the the floor is slippy because of ice or something like that, and they're kind of running on the floor, and you say stop running, instead of that, you could say the floor gets the floor is really slippery, especially with all the ice from outside. It states a neutral fact rather than a personal restriction. So those are just some examples on how to deal with it. Those are some things that you might come in contact with. Again, you're reframing, offering some problem solving, then giving some redirection when you just need to distract from it and remembering that, although, again, this goes back to like our, you know, growing up days and the options of being defiant would have gotten you in trouble. We need to remember that this isn't rooted in defiance, it's rooted in anxiety. And if we approach it from the avenue that it actually comes from, then it can be manageable. It becomes unmanageable when we decide that we're gonna be rigid, we're not gonna change the way that we think and what we do, and they're just gonna rise to our expectations, but really that's only gonna make the situation worse. And why do we do

Compassionate Ministry And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 17:33

this? Because the core of ministering to people is finding ways in which we can make the gospel accessible, help them to become a part of the body of Christ, and fulfill the purpose and call that God had created them for. So let's work together, let's understand, let's build compassion, and also use those strategies to make sure that the gospel is accessible. I can't claim to have all the answers, I can't claim to know all the things, but here's what we are gonna do we're gonna keep this conversation going. We're gonna make the accessible gospel available to individuals with disabilities in our churches and in our communities so that every person has the opportunity to know Christ, to grow in him, and to serve him. If you want to dive deeper on your own, you can check out the indispensable people blog or my books on Amazon called The Indispensable Kid or Gospel Accessibility and the Indispensable People.