"But They have A Good life..."

We’re back! Jen had the audacity to go and get married, and now I’m here editing this and complaining about her selfish behaviour… prioritising love over the podcast (how dare she!) 🤣

It took us two hours to talk about this because it’s been way too long since we’ve recorded, so the chaos here is high and I refuse to edit more then I need to.

Will these episodes get shorter? Maybe, Hopefully?

Will they actually? Probably not. We just can’t stop.

Enjoy the madness. References below. I definitely recommend “Tea and Consent”.

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

References:

“But my horse is well cared for”

Can’t jump, won’t jump

Tea and Consent

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:00

Hey Jen, how's it going? That sounded so straight off the mark. That was very enthusiastic, but I am enthusiastic. We're back. How are you? Um, how am I? Without giving too much away, I feel emotionally charged about the topic that we're about to go through. Uh but otherwise, otherwise good. Uh it's been a busy, busy summer, although you weren't there for part of it, but I won't hold it against you. I mean, what were you doing, Jen? I don't know, just you know, got married, you know. Just got married. Oh, yeah, forgot. Sorry, Jennifer Brown. I should have introduced you as Jennifer Brown. You can introduce me however you like. I will not respond. I should not incriminate myself. Yeah, it was a busy summer. I can't believe how fast it went. I'll say Jen got married. I was there for the work hen. You were there for um. I'm still calling it the work hen. Yeah. To be fair, I was to try and explain that to people. I made you work more than I let you relax and enjoy. So yeah, the the term work hen is appropriate. I like work hen. Work hen, you know, because it's like do a bit of work, see a few clients, drive Barbara off a cliff more than once. Was that the same day? Was that the same visit? More than once. No, there was yeah, it was the same as it you did twice. I'm I'm terrified of heights for the you know, interests of the tape. And Jen was like, you love this route, it's so scenic. I had to close my eyes and not look for most of it. And Jen laughed so hard at me and my fear that she had tears in her eyes, and I was genuinely concerned you were gonna crash because you were laughing at me so much. I I did I did have to slow down. I wasn't even going that fast, but I had to slow down to like 20 miles an hour because I was laughing so hard. I've never seen someone actively crawl up a wall, like I've never seen somebody actually do that, but you actually crawled up the side of the car to like the handrail at the top as if you were gonna like crawl into the back seat. I don't know. I've people talk about crawling up the wall. You did that, and I found that hilarious. Yeah, heights, heights are my heights are my thing. I just I can't even if I'm driving the car myself, it just uh what's your fear actually? We don't know, we know mine. What's your crawl up the wall? I didn't used to be claustrophobic, but then there was one time um so me and Holly were backpacking, trekking through Southeast Asia, and there's this place called the Kuchi M tunnels, and it was between like the Civil War, and these tunnels were I think it was the Cambodians. Um, this is my history now, not packing up. We crawl through anyway. They're tiny, they're crawl spaces, they're absolutely tiny crawl spaces, and our group was quite long, and the only person who had a light was the guide at the very top, and there's like 20 of us crawling through those tunnels, and then the guide went round a corner, and then suddenly it was pitch black, and you're crawling through these tunnels, and then that was the first time I was like, Oh, am I claustrophobic halfway through this tunnel, and there was no way you can't stand up, you can't turn around, there's people behind you, people in front, and nobody moved. And it was like, Can we just please get moving? No, because I'd like to get some fresh air. So I didn't think I was claustrophobic, but I I think I might be. I think I think anybody would freak out in that situation, though. Like, that's that ends horrible. Um, why would you do well? It was fine while there was light, it was fun and exciting, and like there's pictures of us, and like we're all laughing, like, oh my god, and you're like, oh this is so tight, and you know, like, oh, and then it went pitch black and nobody moved, and everyone went silent. And that I was like, Oh, I feel like I'm in a coffin. Um yeah. I think, yeah, I think I think fear is like small spaces and dark small spaces is you know, well, yeah, I think that's not okay. Right, we stopped talking about this. Um, that was our summer. Um, I did the garden, thanks for asking. Um you know about the garden. I sent you many, many, many photos of the garden. Uh so that was pretty much the garden. It's a mess at the moment now because it's November and just flooded out there. Um, but yeah, I think that's all I did this summer. Just worked, work hen, garden, refuse to go to your wedding. I would I would like I would like to point out that I didn't make you work on the hen. I just want to just specify that there was work and a hen. I did not make Barbara work on the hen. The hen was still the hen. Um and yeah, if anyone missed that, she didn't come to my wedding. But it was an abroad wedding. It was an abroad wedding. Destination Nobody goes it was abroad. Um destination makes it sounds like you were it sounds like I don't think you yeah, exactly. I don't think you can call Scotland a destination. You absolutely can. You absolutely can. Lost all of our Scottish listeners, you know. What did she say about Scotland? Um, yeah. But you did get a full mention from my dad's speech, though. Just like that made that was so sweet when you told me that. I was like, oh, like um yeah, that's really sweet. So my dad's my dad's speech, um, obviously Father of the Bride um brings up the podcast, but before he does, he introduces, he says, Oh, Jennifer has you know co-host a podcast with Barbara Hardman, and it wasn't just with her friend Barbara or anything, it was Barbara Hardman. It was such a solid announcement of your entire full name. Um, so that was awesome. And then I was like, Oh god, where's he going with this? And then my dad proceeds to play a clip from the podcast where I have said that to all the long-suffering partners of like animal trainers, just know that you are being trained. So good, and that played out over what a legend. Yeah, loudspeaker to the whole venue, and obviously you're on top table, aren't you? So everyone is just staring at you, and I'm just sat there going, yeah, I did say that, and I stand by it, it's true. Sorry, Donald, it's true. Oh no, it's it's it's amazing, and like what a great thing to put in like Father of the Bride's speech. I I love that, like, and it's so it's just so applicable, it's brilliant, it's absolutely brilliant. Um, and just yeah. Um, so yes, we're back, I suppose, um, from summer hiatus and the audacity of Jen getting married and us being away for a bit. It has been a really busy year, to be fair, and there's been lots going on. So hopefully this is us back, um, back, back, back. Um, and we'll try and do them a little bit more regularly, um, depending on time and you know, commitments and all that sort of good stuff. But it's also like what happens in the world, because one of the reasons why we're back is because of this article that we're gonna talk about. Yes. That kind of gave us the kick up the backside to be like, oh wait, we both feel quite passionately about this. We want to talk about this. Um, so I guess we've kind of been waiting for a bit of a spark, a bit of mojo to come back. Um has been a busy year. And I think that does kind of help. It has been a busy year, and I think so, like a bit of background to this. A couple of years ago, there was a call out for research for people who were working in equestrian sports, either had competed at a high enough level or you know, were currently competing. Um and they've done a very thorough um like interview and speaking to them, and you know, paper and research paper. So it I mean that's a terrible example, but yeah, basically they interviewed a lot of people and it's it came out last week week before last. Yeah. It's recent enough. Yeah, it was done in 24. The actual data collection, 2024. Yes. Was it 2024? Oh god, I thought it was I thought they because it's coming off the back of the FEI welfare or wellbeing, because they refuse to say welfare, uh, ethics, you know, committee, and myself and Jen were in a workshop for that in what was it, 2022? Yes. Um in Hartbury. Um, I hated my table. Face on you you when you were like, nah, where I'm sitting and I was like, nah, feckin'. Anyway, that was a whole thing. So that's the way. Oh, you mean our little other workshop tables? Yeah. I I I had a great table. You had a great table. I saw my table, I was like, I'm leaving. Um, have fun. Snug. Your little face of mischief, yeah. So we were part of that workshop, and then they went on to do the rest of the commission, and then that was what released in 2023. Um, and then there was quite a lot of sort of findings out of that was very comprehensive, um, and that was presented to the FBI, and then I think this is kind of coming off the back of that, and once it was released, going, okay, we want to actually talk to people on the ground and get an understanding of what they think of good life for horses and then social license to operate. Um does that summarize it pretty well. Am I missing anything? I mean, we should probably name it, you know, give the listeners a title to the paper. Back on, off you go. Yeah, okay. So this paper is quote, but my horse is well cared for. A qualitative uh exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in a question attitude towards performance horses and their welfare. So, you know, it's a bit of a mouthful. Um, and it's in I think it's Cambridge who have published it. Yeah. So we've got the Animal Behaviour Journal, Cambridge Publications, and it's free access, so you can search for this. You can find, I think Horse and Hound did a short abstract of it and shared it on social media recently. Um, obviously, they only give you clips, so please, you know, obviously listen to our podcast, and then go read it for yourself. Because although we're going to talk about this and give our opinions and our insights, there's gonna be so much more worth reading in this. So I honestly recommend everyone goes and reads it. It reads really nicely, it's not too technical, loads of quotes of what people actually said. Um some of them are a bit harrowing, but we we'll cover a few of them here. I'm sorry, just correct uh correct myself. I said October, it was actually July 2025, so I don't know where I got October from, so I do apologize. What was July 25? Oh, when it came out. Oh, it came out, yeah. I said October earlier, and that was incorrect, so you know correct myself before. Yeah, so it was accepted. So received 11th of April 25, revised, and then accepted in June 25 and then published July July. I don't know where I got October from. I don't know either. I mean the data sampling was between March 26th and June 17, 24, so a good couple of months. Um, and we should probably just start talking about it. Yeah, absolutely. Um I think that the big thing just straight off the bat for for me is you know, obviously we talk about the five domains for like horse welfare, um, and I think everyone knows of them, even if you haven't heard of that term before. So like nutrition, environment, health, like medical care and stuff, behavioral interaction and mental state, and we all do that to some degree. But what I find interesting is particularly reading the answers from people in that, is it's very clear that they don't have equal weight and depending on you know the horse's use case or how you you know and the enculturation and the equine culture, you're gonna weight those differently. And that just jumped out to me straight away because you know, if you uh like I don't I think it should be dynamic, you know, because like if you've got an emaciated horse that's come from a rescue, nutrition may be a higher priority, right? You know, or like do you get what I mean? Like it's it felt like they were just completely weighted equally throughout all the conversations, and I don't necessarily know if they are um some are thought of as like a nice to have. I don't know if they were weighted equally. I think the weighting is very much a personal thing, and that came through in some of their answers. So, like the behavioural stuff was not weighted very well for some people, whereas with a sports performance lot, freedom from pain and injury and disease, you know, that the kind of health side is probably weighted more than the behavioural mental health side. And then that that decides how well you perceive your horse to be cared for, you know, like whereas like obviously our like and I do think there's a bias there. So like your like our bias generate, it would be like the behavior. So like we obviously weight things like enrichment, mental state, behavior, environment, and beauty specific needs really highly, you know, um, and other people would consider maybe that isn't like all right, so it's it's all muddy and wet at the moment, and I haven't clipped my horse, and she doesn't have a rug on, and she loves being a little piglish, you know, and that's really important for her. And I usually let it dry and brush it off, like, and then she promptly goes, I wanted that on for a reason, I'm gonna go and roll again. For me, I'm like, Oh, that's an important behavioural need, but for other people that might be not be considered, you know, like whereas having them like clean and brushed, you know, is more important and better life than letting them roll in the mud. You do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So I do think that kind of like that that culture, which as I will get into, I think that really makes a big difference on how you perceive the care for that animal as being met. Yeah, I mean the biggest thing for me through this entire article and this research is humans are the issue. Because the underlying theme for this entire thing is it's people's opinions and people's attitudes and people's uh inability to see their own biases and their own pride and their own ego, and that paints their idea of what welfare is rather than actually reading a textbook. Yeah, actually, because we're gonna get in okay, we're gonna get into it. I've said that like five times now. Just we're in it, we're already in it. We're already in it. And if the listener has if the listener hasn't has no familiarity with this paper, we need to give them a little bit of background. So no, then that's fair enough, and we can do that. So do you do you want to crack on and do that? I just wanted to say, like, yeah, it is it is people, and my brain straight away went, is it me? Am I the problem? Like yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Right. Um, yeah. So do you want to give a bit of background and it um like the themes and yeah, okay, we'll go. So, as Barbara said, there was paper and research done back in 22. Um, FEI came out with a be a guardian initiative to promote better welfare for performance horses. Okay, and the idea was to meet the horse's more natural needs, um, and what is best for the horse, recognising them as an actual being, and that humans have a place of protection and trust and respect. And this is redefining what our role as people is. So it's not that we are using these animals, FEI was trying to create this idea that we are caretakers for these horses and that we have a responsibility. So that was part of the initiative of the Be a Guardian from FEI back in 22, and a lot of that was framed on the five domains model as say this concept for animal welfare built on creating a good life, and that comprises from nutrition, environment, health, behavior, interactions, mental state. So it's more about caring about the animal, not how we use the animal. Okay, so in 20, what did I say there? 24, no, 22, 23, no, 24 data collection was taken from how many did they get? They got in the end, they asked 27 individuals, they got 22 in the end. And two, yeah, I think a few people here and there were yeah, they were rightly concerned about because and we will we see we'll get into it when we talk about like culture and stuff, there is a fear of being ostracized from your community, being banned, being blacklisted, and even though it was fully anonymized, I think a few people and they say that were concerned. Yeah, obviously. So two elected not to proceed because of time commitments, and one failed to attend their interview, and then others also dropped out due to that fear of how their information would be used, how they might look, how it might impact their standing for lack of a better word. I can't quite find the sentence to quote, but no, but I I remember reading it and going, that's still interesting information, you know, um, particularly given like the findings of the research. Yes. So we had a mix from the United States, Canada, and the UK. Um, we only had three three individuals identifying as male and 19 as female. That's a quote from the paper there. And who were they? Okay, so they were horse industry, humper jumpers, hunter jumpers, riders, that's the American. I like I like humper jumpers, yeah. Um, coaches, dress as riders, grooms, livery yard owners, managers, and eventers. Interesting. Did we have any? There were no, no, there is, yeah. So we dress as show jumping and eventing and other sports as well. So pretty much all competitive professional of some way, age ranges from 18 up to 60. And I it I thought this was done pretty well. I mean, they were open-ended questions, interview style, so that the interviewers could probe to try and help create the right conversation, but everything was open-ended, everything was recorded and then transcribed. And what I did really like thinking about that anonymity is that, and this is quote directly from the paper, interview recordings were permanently deleted, and the data was then considered anonym anime. Oh my days, anonymized, yeah. Anonymized, that's the word. Thank you all. Um so they did the best they could, you know. I reading reading the way that they designed it, I'm like, this is a really good study design. Like they think, yeah. Oh, it is, and you can do you can do really bad surveys and good surveys, and people often think that doing survey research and it because it's it's coming into that kind of like psychology and social sciences, that it's not as robust, and that's just not true. Like, there's some very good ways that you can collect good data. And as you say, like reading the methods and the research behind this was like they did a really good job. Like, definitely. See the data analysis bit though. I wish they explained a bit more because I didn't quite understand what they were on by that open coding method. Does that ring a bell for you? Because it didn't for me. I I think it's just the type, you know, it's kind of like um, you know, if you've got pairwise and t tests and you know um ANOVA, all of those are like, you know, types of statistical tests that you do. I am not familiar with the social sciences um methods that they use, but just like we would have like a crossover square design, you know, for doing like we're familiar with that because that's our area, but if you work in social sciences and psychology and a lot of it's interview-based, they still have their equivalent. So I just assume that that is their their equivalent. I didn't dive into any particular detail because I'm not particularly interested, um, which is terrible. I know I probably should, but yeah, I know what you mean. I like I like the data collection, I like the methodology. There's like one chunk on data analysis, and I was just like, okay, cool, sounds good. Um let's talk about the results and the discussion. Yeah, um, so it was it was five five themes seem to emerge um and they've gone into that in detail. Um it's and as I say, if you're looking at the paper, I do recommend, you know, flick past, you know, you can read the introduction and stuff, but you don't have to read you know, the various things about like discussion and results, like scroll down and you'll get to the like the theme side of things and then they're done up and there's quotes and then a discussion about each one. So do you wanna take the first one, theme one? Um And I will just well, you say this, and we're both gonna talk, but it's all good. Um just a disclaimer, I'm gonna try so hard to not get too angry. I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try. It's so so much, so much of this is so triggering, and I say that because it's just so frustrating. And I think in our line of work, because we we you know we do a certain amount of human psychology and neuroscience, and you learn about interrelationships and how we deal with one another as humans, and when some of these phrases and the wording and the trivialization and it's just it screams toxic relationships. Yeah, and it's all the stuff we come across all the time, yeah. Like, and I just I would and and like I'm just as angry, don't worry, because but the thing is like I not because the research isn't about, you know, we're not going like oh this is a time research, it's because it's like it's everything we hear all the time, and even when myself and Jen are working or we're on yards, because we are not we're out we're slightly outside of the culture, like name of this podcast, Dangers of Both Ends, tricky in the middle, we feel like we are the middle, like in many ways, and some of these phrases and things that are said are conversations that we have had to have so many times, even to the point of like when we're working with a client many years ago, and like this this this whole paper sparked it. Many many years ago, I was if I told you the story, Jen, um I may head and off of like I was working with trailer loading with a horse, and we were going target up to the ramp, brilliant, best boy, and then we were removing him, and then we were walking back up to the ramp, best boy on the ramp, and then taking him away. So we he was just it was just really small, foot on the ramp, and then you know, we're gonna t take you know, ask you to walk away. So we were practicing forward and backwards, and everything was rewarded to get him comfortable with it. And we were doing this for a little bit, and this woman just walked through the yard carrying a chifney bit on reins, all proud and going, get that on him and I'll get him on. And I was like, I you know, and just straight up shoved it into our faces, and I was like, Oh, we're doing some training. And her face was like, What? Like, she was shocked. She was like, Hold on a second, I was here to save the day and get this sorted. And I was like, No, that's okay, we're here doing some work, thank you very much, you know. And she was like, Well, you'll never get it like that. You just get that on him. And I'm like, the owner's standing there, like, oh god, oh god, oh god, and I'm like, Thank you very much. I just like nobody asked you. Go away. It's like nobody asked you. Nobody asked you to get involved in the slightest. And I'm wearing branded clothing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I have my bright horse logo on, I'm clearly doing some training, we're clear, we're not bothering anyone, we're in a quiet space, you know, and just like and and it's just like because we weren't doing it the normal way, just straight in with like and and and the shock on our face being like, you know, it it just it just reminded me of that, and also that feeling of like I could feel it with I felt it, uh I know my client felt it, of you know, feeling in the spotlight, feeling like everyone's kind of judging you because you're not playing by the same roles as everybody else, and you're outside of the norm. Um, and like for me as well, like I feel like I lose a bit of authority, like, and feel a little bit like that imposter syndrome, you know, because I'm doing something that's not quote unquote traditional, and it makes everybody feel shit, you know, and it's like there's more to it than just getting the horse on in any means necessary, like we were doing something that looked strange and peculiar to other people. Well, this is it, as soon as you feel like you have to justify your actions, you're initially you're immediately put into an insecure situation because you're having to defend yourself and your back's up against a wall, and that's what that human interaction does when people do this unsolicited advice and they're doing it from a very self-centered position. And I'm gonna be really blunt in my words, it's gonna hurt people's feelings if they identify with any of this, but it is it's a narrow-minded, self-centered position to see an idea to see an issue and to just immediately think that you have the answer, and that your answer will be wanted and desired without taking the other person's consideration into their thoughts and feelings, and you weren't even invited into it. This is what I was saying at the very start of this is that this paper just it's like what page four of this paper started to make me angry because I was just like, This isn't even an issue in the industry, this is an issue with human beings between human beings. You can take the interactions and the conversations and the comments in this. You could take out horse and add in dog, you could take out horse and add in child, you could add university, school, teacher. It's all the same. And oh, I just wish people would get better. I don't know, because like yeah, it is very much a people thing. Um, but I sorry, I just love that you said that there's just like yeah, it is a very self-centered approach of going, and and also is it that you assume that your solution is the correct one and that you are required and insert yourself into that, you know. And and I say we see that in all walks of life, yeah, like across like across the board, you know. Um there's kind of like a hero complex to it as well. Um but I do think like yeah, yeah. So theme one theme one, theme one just five. Okay, so now you can understand why we wanted to talk about this, yeah. Um, but yeah, so but my horse is well cared for in quotations. This team one. So welfare issues perceived, but sometimes justified. We are all very good at doing this. We are all very, very, very good at doing this. Um because like ultimately we know that like we all know that we're in a less than an ideal situation across the board. Whether you have your horse turned out 24-7, whether they're stabled, if you have them home, a livery yard, we do not have, you know, or track system, whatever it happens to be, there's very there's very little ideal, you know, and sometimes there can be a lot of pressure to meet the ideal, and we're limited by the resources, the yards, whatever we have around us, and everyone is like, but I'm doing my best. And I think that resonates a lot with like your, you know, as I want to say average horse owner because the majority of people, 80% or something like 80%, are you know, are not competition riders, right? So I think that's something that kind of resonates. It's like, okay, oh, the fields are wet, it's you know, there's a big storm, I have to have my horse in a stable, but you know, I've put lots of hay down and I've done enrichment, so therefore I I'm working really hard to care for them, so therefore it's okay, you know, because it feels awful and it's an uncomfortable position to recognize that it's not ideal because we're working really hard to try and do the best that we can, and it's seen as a knock against you and your love for your horse if you recognize that it's not ideal. I would argue it's important to recognise that it's not ideal always, and still understand that you're doing the right thing, you know, but it's very hard to parse the two of them. Oh, yeah, totally totally. I I think I completely agree with what you've said, but I think that comes into more light later in the paper. Because it this one is about um performance, so talking about welfare issues with like training and equipment, so drugging, whip, use harsh training. The one you're on about, I think you're leaning into theme five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking at my I have my little paper notes here. Um you're talking about the people who have the ability to see the issue and are actively trying to do as much as they can. Theme one is about the people who, and I'm just gonna quote here, I know you go. Yeah, I know personally of a multitude of trainers who drug the horses. They drug the horses for lessons, they drug them for the horses for shows. I see horses getting lunged into the ground all the time. So theme one for the paper is very much just a bell quote that's Jen. That's not Jen saying what she's seen there, quoting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've I I also I also know these things. Um and so theme one's talking about the fact that it's saying, but my horse is well cared for. I can see, so I've seen illegal and I'm quoting I've seen illegal bit use. I've seen horses get lunged into the ground, but my horse is well cared for. So theme one is very much focusing on the abuse of abusive, abuse, abusive um training techniques, um, use of illegal activity and that. So it's talking about welfare perceived issues, so people being able to identify and expressing concern, but justifying it. So justifying the undesirable techniques and justifying the welfare issue and reframing it and trivialization trivialization trivialization, eating it. Well, how do I say that? Trivilisation? I don't know how you're saying it. Trivilization. Trivilizing. Trivializing. Trivialization. Trivil You get what we're trying to say. Yeah. Um that word there. Okay, yeah, sorry. So I've I've mixed up. Do you want to crack on that? I think I've just mixed up the one of the themes in my notes. So yeah, so theme one is very much about this, and I think this is very because we've had hoys and everything recently. I think this is very apt timing-wise. Um, because it's like talking about show horses, and again, I'm quoting here. I've seen lots of show horses that are very busy at shows that go for lots of walks, and you know, maybe they do spend 22 hours a day in a stall, but when they're at horse shows, they all seem fairly content. And it's that it's the but they all seem fairly content, it's that trivialization and going, okay, I can see this is a welfare issue that this horse is here purely for a human desire for 22 hours standing in the stall, coming out to perform and then going back to stand in the stall. But hey, it looks okay. But that's totally, you know, what about the fact that we've got learned helplessness? We've also just got, you know, are they drugged? Are they shattered? Are they also, you know, completely flooded? And no, well, I guess that's learned helplessness, but no, there's no point because they've just been trained into behaving this way, but given a choice, would that horse's welfare be better if they were given some turnout or grazing time? Yeah, it really would be. Yeah. And I like this came up when we were, as I in that FBI workshop or the the for the commission, I'd say in 2022, like, and we, you know, and Natalie Warren said it when we were there and went if the option it you know, it it could be the case of like you know, the locations for some of these shows and events. If there is no option for turnout, then maybe they shouldn't just shouldn't happen there. You know, i i you know, and maybe that's part of the question, like the answer that we need to talk about. I mean, I can imagine the uproar because like ho ho Hoys, yeah, that's um that's in Birmingham with the NEC. Yeah, there's no fields around, it's concrete jungle, and then you've got Olympia, yeah, pretty much in central London. These are all, these are big shows, especially with like British shows, and there's no option. But then you change your discipline and you think back to the Olympics in in Hong Kong, was it Hong Kong, China? Um, they did allow for hand grazing and pairs on the cross-country course, and they had grazing areas um for the event horses, and that was something that I was like, that's really cool. We don't I mean it's something that I know grooms and stuff will make an effort to do, but they I can remember them making a point of we have made grazing areas for these competitive horses. So it was it was something. Um what there was another one, there was another one here at the there was another that pissed me off. There was one here that really pissed me off. I don't know if you're gonna say the same one as well. This is uh another statement. It's good for their mental health as well as getting their zoomies out. Now, let's let's talk about we'll talk about zoomies one day. You know, forgetting that response. It's the next sentence. Yeah, it's the next sentence. Except the two naughty mayors who refuse to be caught. Well, call me and Jen. Uh so they lost their privileges of going out, but they're happy. Yeah, I highlighted this one. Now, I yeah, oh, because it straight away tells you that it's seen as a privilege, not a right or a necessity, and the fact that they refuse to be caught, so therefore they're naughty, so they lost privilege, not a privilege, fundamental right that a horse that you are required to give to your horse as a caregiver. But you see it as a privilege. The words we use are so important, and then justifying it but by going, but they're happy, and it's just the contradiction in that statement is is mind-blowing. And calling them naughty for refusing to be caught, not identifying well, why don't they want to be caught? Okay, but also in the same so the whole quote, guys, is it's good for their mental health as well. So this person in their very first sentence acknowledges that it's good for mental health, and they they call it zoomies, and we're gonna discount that for right now. Um and then they say that it's a privilege, but it's good for their mental health, but it's a privilege, so it's privileged to have good mental health, but but also you're not you're then not letting them go out, so you're also saying that they're happy, even though you're not letting them go out, and you've already stated that you understand turnout is good for mental health, and yet you still find the ability to say that they're happy when you're re taking that away from them. It just doesn't make any sense. And this is the trivialization of these that the industry that we have. It's just really what this person is saying is I'm gonna say a good thing to sound like a good human being. I've identified these horses annoy me, so I'm gonna do what I need to do to make my life easier, and really, I don't really care about their mental health. I want an easy life, but I also want to look like a good human being. Yeah, yeah. Uh you said it perfectly there. Like I say, I I read that one and I had to put the phone down for a bit. Um because yeah, it's it's and then this is like the cognitive distance, and this is you know, the the juxtaposition, uh and and then the flips that we have we do in our mind to go, no, I am a good person and I care for my horse. Yeah, no, and make sure that that is like an openly facing part of your facet, but if you it's it's so skindy. This isn't even skindy, this is on the fucking surface. Like you can just the contradiction, I can't even Yeah. You said you were gonna be angry about this, but I think also just across the board, you know. Uh yeah, I say you just said it perfectly. Like, oh I don't know what more I can add to that. Just and I think I think this is where I know like I've said that and I'm listening to my own words straight back to me, and I'm going, Oh, careful, Jen, because also in a outside way, these people also need to be championed for taking part in this research. Because if people don't take part in this research, and if they're not honest, then we don't have the data to make active changes. So there's a real like straight away. I'm already straight away going, oh, what I said I believe in, and it's true, but also a little bit of me is worried about making people go, Oh, well, I don't want to get bashed if I take part in these things, which is why some people pulled out, and it's a really it's a really difficult place to be because that those statements do need to be condemned and identified as wrong, and it's a not a healthy mindset for us to be in with our horses, but at the same time, please continue to take part in this research because we need this data. To be honest with you, I don't think you need to be worried about it, Jen, because the all this is anonymized for one, um, and the same people are saying it publicly on Facebook forums in comments and quite actively. You know, we could probably find the same comments by just like we could find hundreds of them all over social media. To be fair, do you know what I mean? Like people are with their name happily saying it, you know, and and with conviction and stuff as well. Yeah, to be yeah, to be fair, the people who'd be worried are not the people who should be worried. You know, um, so it's one of those things where you know, as I these research the this type of research is great, 100%. It is anonymized, the people are protected, and you know, yeah, as I and most people just scream it into the internet anyway. Um yeah, so did you see the next one? So we equestrians, um I'm not doing the bloody mouth one, the next one down. Uh the yeah, guys, we're like we're skipping there's stuff about hero booth and bloody mouths and spurs and all sorts. We're powerful. I'm picking the one about where it actually says my horse is well cared for. So this one, we equestrians put our horses in boxes however many hours a day, like you know, they're out for four hours a day. That's still 20 hours a day in a box, right? And that kills me sometimes. But my horse is well cared for. I are just like, and I know so many yards where four hours a turnout in winter is standard. Me, Jen. You know, most of Ireland. It pretty much is it is incredibly difficult, you know, to find anything. You know, we we we don't have the population density, you know, for the most part, like that you do in someplace in the UK. DIY yards and stuff isn't but again, we'll get it into it when it comes to like in cultured attitude and stuff as well. Um because a lot of Ireland is traditionally like hunting. A lot of the hunting yards, you know, the hunt season would start in September. So they all come in. You know, they stay in, they get clipped, they get put on oats, they go hunting. Hunting season ends, you do your hunter trials, and then they all go out again. And a lot and like, you know, that is you know, like it it's literally like seasonal, like the same kind of months over and over and over again, because that's what is traditionally done. Um and it kills me too, you know. And I would probably say, again, we try metal mouse, I would sit there and go like, but my horse is well cared for, you know? Like, again, so I was saying that at the start, it's like the best of our ability. Like, but it's it's it's yeah, it's it's it's so hard. Um and like it's where you probably find, and if you're listening to this, and the same with about me and Jen, there will be bits that will resonate, you know, as Jen says. There will be bits that hit you and go, Oh, that that that sounds like me. That's why I think they did a really good job with the survey as well, because there are bits that you go, oh, that's how I feel about that. So they've they've done a good job of encapsulating the industry. Um and it's and and we'll get on to sort of like you know, sort of the change and how to make those sort of changes in a bit. But yeah, I do think that's a really common one. Like how many yards do we know that that is standard? Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the takeaways for theme one that I liked within the paper is they kind of summarised that you know, participants were able to not only perceive and identify welfare issues right in front of them, they were able to demonstrate genuine concern about those welfare issues in the interviews, but in the same breath justified and reframed it to trivialize it and basically diminish its importance. So it was a full, a full circle thing of I can see this as an issue, this really upsets me, but it's not as bad as this and that, and they get this and this. Well, actually, you know what? It's fine, and I'm just going to justify the issue. And there's a cycle of abuse. If you and I'm talking about like if you want to look at human research and abusive relationships and partnerships and all that jazz, it's that justification of the action till you get the cycle, and it doesn't end. You've got to you've got to take away the justification for anything to change, but that's again, it's the human element that's the issue in this. The horses aren't doing anything wrong. And it's very hard to do because we are deeply deeply entrenched in it. And I said we'll get onto it in in theme five, and that's the big one for me, which I think is like just so critical. I think it's most of my notes, is like, you know, the enculturation and the culture around it. You know, breaking ranks, you know. Inculturation. Again, like uh inculturation. Oh, culturation. I thought you were gonna teach me a new word there. This I mean that this is we've already had quite a few big words here that I'm tripping over. Um so don't give me a new one. Yeah, don't give me a new one. And we'll get on to it in that like you know, um, and it takes like slow, you know, it it's it it takes time to make that change happen, um, and it's very hard in your community and your culture. Um it brings us none of this is easy, none of this is easy. Um that bring us on to theme two, yes. Um, just let them be a horse. Yeah, so theme two split into two sections, which is so theme two, just let them be a horse. Equestrians in conflict about what a good life is for a horse. And sub theme one of this is in their words, the good life is having a job, and then the second theme is the good life as freedom is to be a horse. So, what this was saying to us as the readers of the papers telling us that to let them just be a horse within their study group, there was two separate ideas of what that meant, and one sample of one number one number of the participants decided that a good life is having a good job, and another part of the sample of the participants said it's about being free to be a horse. So interesting that within a group of people that are all quite have a lot of common uh common ground that we have this divide of opinions, and I think from the researchers, let's say this open-ended um questioning that hopefully these uh I think you can get the transcript like the question somewhere if you really want to. Like these are pretty open-ended questions, so hopefully these people formed these opinions themselves, if that makes sense. Yes, yeah, I do. And like just to add as well, I think and I think I might republish it too um as well. Myself and Jen have there is a podcast from a few years ago that we talked about like is uh like is a wasted hor a wasted horse without a job. Yeah. I can't even remember the top of the job. So that was one of our early ones, yeah. One of our early ones, we dived into that in such detail. So I found this really interesting because it's all the stuff we talk about, like what is wastage, how is the horse being wasted, what is a job defining that. Um I will it's an old one, but I will republish it. Did we do that as a debate? Was that a debate one? Was it a debate one? I think it might have been. I think we it might have been really early doors. Um, so you can hear, you know, young Jen and Barbara, useful, you know. Yeah, we tried you we tried we tried debating each other, but it didn't work very well because ultimately we were we always agreed. We always agreed, and also Jen got really competitive. Yeah. Um and you know which I found really hard. If I then had to defend something I didn't believe in, I still wanted to win. We just kind of half the fun as well, but like at the same time, it there was a huge amount of production that went into doing it. Like, you know, reading the research, putting things together, the editing, you know, actually uh it was it was a huge body of work. They were really fun, um, but I will see if I can put that back up. Um, like just at the same time we put this one up. So if you want to go back to back and listen to that one, absolutely do, because it is a good one. Um, but yeah, like a lot of people, and I've seen this attitude too. Like, you know, I say that a good life for horse is having a job. Um, and you know, it's definitely like, and we have a really like you know, we have quite derogatory terminology for people who aren't seen to be riding or doing things with their horse, and we call them pony patterns, which is derogatory, like, or they're just a field ornament. Um, you know, the the language we use about people in those situations, or we see them as less than, you know, particularly like you know, so not only is it a case of you know, the way you talked about people being the problem, not only do we see people as wasting the horse, like it's also quite toxic for the people around who, you know, may just enjoy being around horses full stop, you know. Well, yeah, once again, it's a human opinion, you know. It's just like what you enjoy. I I don't enjoy art, right? Barbara does. Barbara enjoys painting. I hate painting. If you ask me, you know, point blank Jen, yes or no, is painting a good use of your time? I would say no, because I don't enjoy it, it would stress me out, and there's other things I want to do. But that wouldn't be a true statement in the general sense because for Barbara the answer would be yes, and both are correct for our opinions, but doesn't mean either of us are actually right in the general sense, it's an opinion. So I think one of the quotes I found the most shocking in this one um was about a horse dropping down dead. Oh, here we go. Yeah, okay. So here again, please be aware I am quoting here. Okay. I've known enough horses that you know they're big sports horses, they're kept trucking and trucking, and then the moment somebody decided that they need to retire because they just didn't do it anymore, they drop dead. I think they're at their most happy when they have a job that suits them and maintained to manage that job. I was just like slightly who actually believes that? Well, it's it's it's the it's the fact that in the same statement they've talked about the fact that as soon as the horse was allowed to stop, they dropped dead. So, what does that tell you? And in the same statement, yeah, that it's the the bit I highlighted was maintained to manage that job. Maintained it. And then so when they retired, that management probably stopped and the horse died. That tells you that that was not a healthy horse because they required all that additional medication, feeding, whatever, whatever they were doing. That was not a healthy horse, and it was being maintained for the pure use of that person, of humans. And and the minute they were no longer of quote unquote use to the person, as you say, like that management and maintenance stopped and the horse suffered as a result, or the suffering probably ended. If you want to be really that dark about it, you know, and and I do, I think, you know, there definitely is like again this the this attitude is pervasive, like the guilt that and I I can't necessarily speak for Jem, but I'm pretty sure you've come across too the guilt that our clients feel when they are not giving their horse a job or doing things is very real. It's very, very real. Like, you know, and I I like you know, there's times where I know I've had my own clients who are like, okay, you know, have are going through their own things, you know, either physically or mentally, or they're moving house or they've got stuff with a family, and they can't, they're like, Oh, you know, I I can't ride this week, and you know, I haven't had time to get them on the walk or lunch, or I need to do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, it's okay. They can go out, you can take a break, they'll be fine. And you can see them going like it's really, really hard for them. And I I have to keep saying it's like you can take a break, you don't need to ride every day. Be the best person you can be by supporting yourself, you know, they'll be fine. But the guilt is so there because this idea is here, you know, that you are not providing a good life for your horse if you do not give them a fulfilling job and ride them and lunge them and work them multiple times a week. I think I think in this one in particular, again, I agree with everything you're saying, but I think there's a there's an even more complex layer to this in that please do I see I see the words that are written on the page and I see the people going, they need work to do things, they they uh what's it say? If they don't, they wouldn't thrive, that a horse needs movement and it needs a and I and I can actually see, I'm like, okay, so you're identifying that the horse needs mental stimulation and physical stimulation, and that's awesome that you're identifying this. But that the missing supply the poorly it's not even that well maybe, but they're just missing the the maybe the last little link in the chain, which is why do you as a human have to supply that involv that enrichment, that stimulation, because they're not getting it in the way that they're housed. If your horse is housed in a species-appropriate enclosure, whether however that looks, whatever system or barn or whatever, they don't need the stimulation from us because they're getting it in their life and their environment. And this is this is this is what I find the very the missing link for a lot of people who are because we haven't gotten to the subsection, the next section where the people are like, Oh, I want my horse to be a horse. We're still very much on the people who are like, No, but I have to work my horse because working my horse and exercising my horse gives them a good life, and in one sense, I'm like, Yeah, you're kind of on the right page, they do need that stimulation, they do need that enrichment. Training can be enriching, training can provide that movement that they're lacking because maybe you are in a yard where you only get four hours of turnout, and you know, if you do a walk hack or you ride your horse out, or you are providing them that physical and mental stimulation, but you've just not quite connected the dots of why you need to do it. It's not so they have a job and they feel purpose, it's it's an attempt to meet their needs, and I just I kind of wish that link would be made a bit more commonly. Yeah, and I'm so glad you made that connection because it's not made in the paper, and I missed it, and even just hearing you say it, I'm like, oh, that's spot on, you know. Like they're as you say, it's there, but the well, why do they need that? You know, and it's because it's missing somewhere else. Um, and yeah, they haven't ha kind of haven't made that connection, but I'm very glad you made it for us because I didn't yeah, I missed that reading. This that's okay. Just thinking how much do we want to go into the subsection or move on to section three? They need to do their job. So so section three is about compliance. Yeah, I I I found this one, I found this one relatable and understandable from the work that we do, Jen. So like you know, most people, right, they they come to us because it's an issue, right? You know, and because things are are challenging with you know the dog or the horse that they're working with that they own. Um or if you prefer the word guardian to or caretaker, and they're challenged by that, and they want to have a good relationship, so they're looking for support to do that, and we do that. So I understand what some of these statements say. So this like feeding into the job bit, this is like the theme three where it says they need to do their job. Yeah, I think all of it's super important, and there's so much we could be talking about this. Um, and I really encourage everyone to actually read the paper because we are actually going to skip over a little bit of subtheme two because we've kind of spoken about it and I want to get onto theme three. So, theme three differs slightly from theme two. Theme two is about a job, having a job is an indication of a good life. Theme three is the objectification of the horse and that the horse needs to do their job. So this isn't so much about welfare anymore. Although it came up in conversation in the interviews, I find it really interesting how we went from when we started talking about having a job, the group for the uh interviewee, no, the the attendees, the people being interviewed, split and they were like, Yes, you know, having a job is this and having freedom is this, and then suddenly the conversation goes into but the horse must do their job. So it's all about the objectification and the traits that so I'll just read the sentence out because maybe it'll explain it better than I am. Theme three explores an aspect of participants' attitude toward performance horses and how they are valued, offering an insight into the horse-human relationship in this context. So, in this theme, objectification of horses was discussed based on previous research and involves perceiving an individual as an instrumental, ownable, usable thing. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the main things people enjoyed was admirable traits in horses were basically how useful was that horse and how vulnerable were they to violation, meaning how willing was that horse to comply and how easy was it to make that animal comply to the human's needs? Where unfortunately, I mean, how horrible is that to say, but I I know that's what people wanted. It's true, yeah. And and it is it's true across the board. So, like, you know, there's a couple of words that I think you know people might find a bit jarring. Number one, the objectification of the horse, you know, but we have to recognise that sitting on top of a horse, riding a horse, is using that creature for human gain, and its very truest form is a form of objectification. That's just the correct word to use, particularly in the scientific literature. And the fact that here this is like you know, the individual as an instrument, you know, and you know, yeah, like I know, like sometimes it's like we see them a lot like a as sports equipment, right? You know, and I think that comes across in some of it because people horse ride because they enjoy it and they enjoy spending time with their horse. But nobody wants to be on a horse that won't do what's being asked, yeah. I find therefore it yeah. I find this one really difficult. I found this theme difficult to figure out where I sat because I'm reading the sentences, right? So again, I'm gonna quote guys. Okay, so I like nice horses, you know, they just do as they're asked. I liked horses that I like horses that are respectful, and I'm reading that and I'm like So do I so do I that's it yeah, like so do I, but also I understand how much effort and time that is required to put into that to make to reach that level of harmony and understanding and consent. But the state those statements on their own, I don't want to yeah, I don't want to demonize anyone for 100%. Yeah, anyone for going oh I like those things. Yeah, I do too. Yeah, like again, it's the same with it's the same with the dog as well. Like I say, like you know, if I I don't want to go out, I mean it's our it's our job to do it, Jen. So you know, I think we feel it a lot of the time like we go out to a lot of either, you know, fe uh scared, anxious, dangerous dogs and horses, like a lot of the time, you know, and that can be really, really hard, like day in, day out, like and me and you have said it before. Like, how often do we go and spend time with our own horses and they're happy to see us and they're all snuggly and we're able to take them for a nice walk or do some stuff together uh or do some groundwork or go out for a hack and we're like oh that was really nice, yeah. You know? So I totally get it, I totally get it. Like it's hard working with a dangerous at horse, you know? But also there's hard working with sorry I'm interrupting you. No, interrupt away. There's um there's also something unhealthy if we were to not think like that. Like let's just flip the script here, right? Okay, and uh it's like I might working really horrible horses, you know. I like ones that disrespect me and don't do what they're at, and I really enjoy that. Like that is not a healthy toxic, that's not a healthy place to be, right? So again, there's there's nothing wrong. Actually, it's healthy. We should want our horses to essentially be, as a human calls it, respectful, because it probably means that there's a decent level of communication and confidence and mutual understanding, hopefully. Yeah, that you're getting what you perceive as respect from your horse. And if your horse is doing as they're asked, hopefully they are free from pain uh and they understand and they're able to physically and mentally do. Yeah, so that's great. The bit where this then did change, but that's here after this, and you're I know I know that you're about to say exactly what I said. It's the bit after that. Yeah, so as much knowledge we can go, and again, just before we kind of move on to that bit, like you know, again, just to kind of just hover a little bit on that, you know, objectification word, this is why I think it's really important to have a horse that you know, as you say, like have that partnership, they want to be with you, like the the the one where they're like the two naughty mares that refuse to be cat caught and have their privileges removed, you know. That one, like you have to ask yourself, well, why is that the case? You know, so if we want to use a horse to ride or go for a walk or spend time or compete with them, then you know, we're using that animal, so therefore, we should be asked they they should want to be engaging with us, you know, we should want to develop that relationship. So, again, all those sentiments. I just think that's a little bit that's missing here as well. It comes back somebody, somebody near the end of this section says something along those lines, but we unfortunately we we go through a dark spot first, so let's go through the dark spot. Yeah, we do go for the dark spot, go to the dark spot. Um, so so that's where people simply stated that there's some nice things about horses, and then while it wasn't that wasn't the attitude carried out by all the participants here. So some people said things along the lines of okay, where there is a job to do, and I expect them, you know, to do it to the best of their ability. So there's an expectation that I've bought this horse and I expect it to do it to the best of their ability, but in the end, they do have a job to do, and they have to do their job. That's the quote. And compliance is required. Yeah, they have to do their job, they have to do it. There's this, there's this, it's the they have to, and also the best of their ability. I'm sorry, but I've never seen a horse turn up to a job interview. You know, I mean none of none of I've never seen that. Never horse hasn't picked up. We dictate what they do. Exactly. They you know they don't make a choice to do it. I know. None of them should, and then the best of their ability. Do you do your job to the best of their ability every single day? Do you not have a bad day? You know? Yeah. And well and also how do you know it's the best of their ability? What if what if it is the best of their ability, but you've just decided it's not the best. Yeah, like like you're the one who set the assessment criteria, and you've decided that the best of your ability is jumping 120. Yeah. You know, and the horse is actually like, you know what, the best of my ability is walking over poles. Like you've dictated that. And then if they have to do that job, what type of punitive measures are you using for them to comply? Yeah, I mean, if you just look at London Marathon, right? How many hundreds of people take part in that? And they choose to. If somebody made me Jen, if you stood behind and made me do that, first of all, I'd bite you, I think. But you know, if you chase me through the streets to make me run, I I'd be dead on the side of the road. I couldn't do it. That's definitely I wouldn't be able to do it. So yes, that's people who have chosen, but also what I was gonna say. Is that you've got people who are doing London marathon in what but two hours or something? Is that the record? But you've also got people doing it in ridiculous outfits taking 10 hours. They're both doing it to the best of their ability because they chose and trained and consented to doing that. But what that ability looks like is very, very different. Also, you can go, okay, well, Jen, that's a that's a pro athlete and that's your everyday runner. Right, let's go to the Olympics and look at the one-meter sprint, and you've got world champions breaking records. You've also got people coming in last at the Olympics who are as a pro-athlete, they did the best of their ability. Yeah, it doesn't always mean you know, they people, you know, their coaches or their sponsors expected them to come in at a certain number. That was the expectation. Expectations and ability don't always match. And the horse doesn't have distances. Yeah, sorry. I would say the horse doesn't get a voice in that, whereas at least that runner who comes last in the 100 of the Olympics has a voice and can go, I'm so sorry, I tried my best, my hamstring was tight the day before there's an injury, or do you know what? Maybe this isn't for me, I don't want to do this anymore. The horse doesn't get that option. The only way that they can communicate is with their behavior, you know, unless we have like forced compliance, in which case, you know, no is just never happens, and it's completely meaningless, you know, so they don't have an ability to say that. And I think the next comment goes to your point there, Jen, where it's like, you know, the statement. I think if you look at the horse, horses that are successful at their jobs, again, humans have developed that criteria of success. As you said there, it's just like, what is the the level of ability? And maybe maybe you don't think that marathon runner, right, who spends two hours walking in a costume, it has succeeded. Like you set that success criteria. So this per you know, these people said that we're setting the success criteria for for horses, but regardless of their job, you know, it it's that they kind of they want to be part of the team, and that's the anthemorphosizing as well. Like, do they do they actually, you know, and this person goes on and say they want to do the job, they want to do things the right way, they want to put the effort in. And again, it goes back to that justification piece, right? So, like, you know, if you have, you know, decided what the success criteria are, that the horse wants to be part of your team and that they want to do the job and they need a job, then it can justify everything else that you do. Yeah. And consent is a massive part of the conversation in the industry that's starting to be had. So the next, the next, the next one, the next like quote, I quite liked. It's not perfect, my opinion of what perfect is. Um, but it's like, so what did they say? It's about temperament, it's about heart. Do they want do do they want to do the job, or at least are they open to doing it? What do they want? You can make horses do anything, but if you want to do a partnership, you have to have a horse for many years that serves you well, as much as you serve them, they have to want to do the job. And that I really enjoyed that statement because I was like, in a weird way, we're talking about consent as if it's something new, it's not because if you actually if you actually read any of like the old stuff by Xenophan and going back to like the Greek, there's some really nice bits about training and working horses and about looking after your horse and championing their well-being, and your horse has to want to work for you and with you to have that it's like there's a there's a bit because I actually read it back at uni, we did it in first year about creating a war horse, and like your war horse, your war horse has to want to fight for you, and if all you do well, I mean to be fair, it's it's quite a brave thing to run into battle, right? Yeah, swords clashing blood everywhere. But it's like talking about it's like okay, if the Greeks understood this idea that to have the best war horse was to have a horse who wanted to fight for you and with you. That to me indicates some level of awareness that the horse has to consent and be on the same page. So so so why, if that was hundreds of years ago, is consent work not commonplace? I think it's because yeah, but no, no, but I think you kind of hit on something there, like it's um it's because we can't we we struggle to recognise what consent actually looks like. Yes, um, you know, if an adam you know what I mean, like w like what you know, across the board, and again, back to humans are the problem. Yes, exactly. And the tea is the best thing in the world. If you're not familiar with it, it's a YouTube video 100%. It was done by it was done by the Scottish, wasn't it, Jen? Like um about you know tea. It's like, oh, it was so good, and it was basically like you know, Jen comes over to my house and I ask her, does she want a cup of tea? And she says yes. I make her a cup of tea, and then actually she changes her mind and goes, No, I actually don't want it. I can't then go, you must drink that tea. You said yes, you know, like and it goes on to get more ridiculous, and it's like oh you know, and also if Jen passes out and falls on the ground, you cannot just like pour the tea down her throat when she's unconscious. Yeah, it was it gets a bit tongue-in-cheek, it's but it's very well done. Yeah, it was a tongue in cheek video about um consent, you know, basically sexual consent at college, university, like freshman students and uni, and that it was that's what it was for. But the analogy is perfect because you could watch it and think, oh my days, think of this person like getting so upset because somebody said they don't want a cup of tea. But you go no think about it. Like that horse, hypothetically, refused that jump. They they they said no to the cup of tea. They said no, okay. Yeah, they said no, they don't want that cup of tea. That cup of tea is a jump in this point, and maybe you need to offer them a fruit squash. Maybe they want a glass of water. Do you know? Maybe they're actually hungry, maybe they don't want water at all. And you know, that could be maybe we need to lower the height of the jump. Is it the filler? Is it the approach? Is the tack fitting? Is the rider and I don't want to put blame on people, but when we're talking about riding, there is an element of the riders involved. Are you yanking out of that horse's mouth? Have you actually ridden a decent line? Are you coming on an awful line off and that horse isn't capable of doing a jump and an angle? There's all these things there. And you've read Marianne's paper, Jen, you know, like it can't jump, won't jump. Like that's an excellent description of exactly that, you know, um, and talks about like rewarding and listening to I say the no, because if you do that, then you get a better yes. Yeah. And after reading her paper, I was like, Oh, I will forever like appreciate, you know, a horse saying and refusing to jump because you're actually making it safer for everybody involved. Because it's their forelegs, it's their forelegs leaving the ground, and if they're coming up to the jump, and I say maybe we got the line right wrong, like maybe I say there's something medically or whatever that is going on, you know, the whole heap of things are you know happening. But if I'm coming on that line, I've got that line wrong, and you know, she stops and goes, Oh, I'm not jumping that, maybe there's a good reason, you know? And maybe it's keeping everybody safe by doing that. Like, and that you know, and it means that when we are getting a good jump, we know it's gonna be a good jump, you know. Um and we as you say we are talking a little bit more about, you know, rewarding the no a little bit more so that you know the yes can, you know, the the yes can truly happen. Um but it's very hard. It is a really, really hard one to kind of get your concept around. And I do think that comes, you talked about you know, the military side of things, right? I do think a lot of that comes from, you know, the concept of as I say, like, you know, even in this one where the person has said like, you know, serving you and the horse serves you, because they're not quite companion animals and they're not quite agricultural animals, and they were used for say in military, you know, it like they had to do it, you know, because they were riding into war and it was like you need to do this or we're all dead. Do you know that I think that's still a little bit ingrained there, so it makes it hard for am I talking nonsense, Jen, or does that like no no no no it no, it makes perfect sense, and again, it's just people I think we we're just so bad within the industry because and earlier on, or maybe it's later on, there's somebody makes a quote about there's pressure from the public for us to see our horses more as pets than performance athletes, and that's when I have to say, well, yeah, they they these are sentient beings who have never asked you to own them, have never asked you to do anything, have never asked to go to the races or event or dressage, they have never consented to this use, it's been purely for us. So that for a horse to serve you or work for you or do a job, all of that brings in some sort of idea of elective choice, and there hasn't, there doesn't mean I I to this day I've never seen a horse pick up their bridle and bring it to an owner like a dog would, you know. Dog goes, oh, lead means walk. I want to go for a walk. Yes, I'm gonna ask for that, I'm gonna engage in that. I have seen horses open stable doors, I have seen horses jump out of fences, I have seen horses run away from people. I have never seen a horse run to the tack room and get their tack. I ride horses, by the way. Anyone listening to this, I ride my horse. I know I do. We both do. Not demonizing horse riding, just trying to get the point across that horses didn't ask for any of this. But I think, but like, no, but and I and I'm I'm so glad you said that there because like ultimately, like, you know, Jen, like, you ride your horse because you enjoy it, right? I ride my horse because I enjoy it. We're doing it, but but we recognize that it's our enjoyment that we, you know, we are using that our animals, we love them to bits, and there's our justification and do our best that we can again using the same terminology that's in the in this paper, but I think we also fundamentally acknowledge that it's very much riding our horses horses for our pleasure, and as a result of that, if you know, like I know for a fact, and like you know, because you have sent me messages of going, like, I've gone down to Ruben and I went to put the saddle on and he stepped away and he wasn't too happy, so I left it for the day. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's because you're going, I know that this is a thing for me, right? Like, you know, and I know that because you you said as much to me, it's like that you know, we got a no there, so you went, okay, well, riding today was for me. He said no, there's a reason behind that. Maybe he's a bit sore. Like, maybe he's like not today of all days, and you know, and I'd say just for anyone listening, I'm still a human being, so those messages to Barbara are not usually like, oh Barbara, I've had a wonderful day today. Ruben said no to the tack, and we didn't go for a ride. It's usually like, Oh, for f sake, I really wanted to go for a hack today. The gorge weather's gorgeous. Ruben said no. And I I we're all human and you are allowed to get frustrated because you're listening to this and be like, Oh, I couldn't have a horse if I couldn't ride it, I couldn't do this. And it is hard, right? But he is now a safer horse because whenever he like he he isn't he's 17 years old, he's got arthritic changes, he gets his medication, he lives out in a herd. I've done everything I can to meet his needs to kind to then again, I guess, justify uh my use of him as a ridden horse. Yeah, but if I ignore the days he has a bad day, those are the days he's gonna spook or something's gonna happen. The days that I listen to him, we have nice, calm, safe ride, and we can enjoy it and do nice things. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated about it, but also um trying to think. Say I wanted to go for oh, this is the first time I'm gonna say this in the podcast, Barbara. Say I wanted to go for a walk with my husband. Um the H word. Yeah, that's the thing. Um and he said no, and it's a gorgeous day outside. I might also get frustrated. But that doesn't mean that's what I want to do, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna, you know, get out the frying pan and chase him about the house and say, You will go for a walk with me. You know, when you start putting it like that, you're like, oh, that's a bit silly. No, instead, we'll get past the aggressive Jenny stare. That's what we'll do, and then we'll be scared and leave. Jen's got some face when she gets like you're doing this. Um I don't even mean it. No, but we're so terrified of it, so we're like, oh god, okay, we better do what we're told. Um I don't even mean it. Although I did tell you yesterday that like I I just sat in the car and waited, I had the engine on. I was just waiting for him. Yeah. Just so hours, hours waiting. No, we can't know we don't we don't talk about Saint David. David is a Saint. Anyway, sidebar back because we're going on forever. Um even I know that even I know that forward um yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump I'm gonna jump on a bit um and we finish this up. Um so be very no, we've come back to the case. Yeah, super quick. Theme four is about happy athletes are going to produce results. We've kind of already spoken about this, okay? Because very much it talks about horses being an athlete, but again, an athlete uh an athlete is a person who has made a a conscious decision to take part, and that is not a horse. Yeah. And also I would agree again with that statement in general, like for the most part, it's like if you have met the needs of that animal and you know, mental, behavioural, enrichment, everything else, like nutritional and all of that includes everything that we've talked about today, then to the best of their ability to quote the you know things like they're going to do the best of the best job in quotation that they can do. I think there's the this the sentiment is correct in there, you know, for the most part, and I think we have talked about that, but like I'd love to jump onto team five, yeah, which is the incultured into the sport, because I think this is really, really, really important um and it makes a massive difference for everything that's we've now talked about. Um and like so enculturation, culture being like and inculturation when you're effectively indoctrinated into that culture. Um you know, I think I wonder if in indoctrinated is sort of similar kind of roots connected into that minutiae. But it's n is E N inculturation. Enculturated. It's not in. It's E N. Yeah, but I am saying N. I am uh this is the accent. Um but what did you say to indoctrinate? Oh indoctrinate uh indoctrination. And I'm just wondering if it's from the same kind of like word tree, you know, history something. Whatever it's called with words when you put them. I see this is something my mother would know of the Latin. There'll be something in the IN and the E N. Somebody a listener can tell us. Please write in. Please tell us, educate us. Yeah, I shouldn't. Paper is our preferred format. Um the yeah, so it's basically what happens, like, you know, usually it's but a lot for a lot of people, like in horse riding is childhood. There's some kind of exposure, you know, you get bitten by the bug, you know, um, and you know, you uh we've all heard the expressions, some of them annoy me. Um so I won't repeat them, Jennifer, if she wants, but like, you know, effectively like for those of us in our 30s and 40s, you know, now that's like early 2000s, and a lot has changed in that time. But like the practices that we saw and we were around when we were growing up around horses, you know, sticking into the culture, being part of like what is the equestrian culture and what is done, like and the norms stick so much because they're formative years. So whatever happened when we were growing up around horses, and when we were exposed to them, it becomes really, really ingrained and becomes so fundamental for defining ourselves like I'm a horse person or I'm a crazy horse girl, or you know what I mean? It becomes part of our identity, and that's very hard to shift. That's very, very hard to shift, and it and it works for the justification of everything else that we do, like as part of that, but it also creates like a massive barrier for change, right? Like, and you know, I'm right in saying Jen as well, like you know, you you grew up very close to horses, more so than me. Um, like you did a lot more um like within eventing. It was eventing you did, wasn't it? When you were younger. Oh like I mean, all of it, I mean mainly eventually it was mainly eventing, but before I really got into eventing, working hunter, show jumping, dress ash, brisk dress ash, brish show jumping, pony club. Um I mean, no, like I started in horses and it was three, and there's not been a year of my life where I've not been riding or working with horses since I was three years old. Um, but I didn't get into Pony Club until I was about 15, 16, maybe. But before that, it was everything and anything I could do. So working on yards, doing free labour, getting free rides, riding all the naughty horses, um, and being around because very often when you're in that kind of situation where you are working free labour to get access to somebody's horse, and I've heard dog walkers talking about this is that people don't give up their animals for a free ride or a free dog walk if they're good animals. In quotations, good animals. So I grew up with you know, naughty, difficult horses and being like, this is this is what you deal with, this is what you work with, and this is normal for horses to perform and work like this, you know. It's normal to to ride horses that buck and bronk and bolt and do sorts like formative years, you know. It's normal to work with horses that want to bite you as soon as you walk in the stable. And you know, that it just yeah, and then you get you get known as one of those people who're like, oh, it's really good at difficult horses, and like, oh, you're really good at training horses. Just like, well, I just got desensitized your identity as well. Totally. And you become proud of that. Totally. Well, I went off to America. You become proud of it. I wanted to do more of it, and then forgot you went to America. Yeah, and then they did it too hardcore, and then even for me. They do everything mega over there, don't they? Um the and I hope you don't mind me saying, because like me and you have talked about this, so just for the interest of the tape, like that you know, at some point you were like, you can't give horses food to train them, you know? Got it. Like, and yeah, because that was part of the culture. Like, you well, you don't do that, and you ride out the bucking horse. Oh yeah, I mean, I at one point in my life I didn't fully subscribe to dominance theory. You had to be the boss, you had to be the leader, you had to tell them, you know, it was all they had to do this, they had to do that, you had to be the boss, you had to chase them, you had to get respect. Oh yeah, and rejecting that part of that culture, like for both me and Jen, because as I say, like we've gone and done the matches, we've gone and done CPT, we've gone and become behaviorists, like keep reading, keep learning, and a lot of the things stepped well outside the culture that we grew up with, you know, and what Jen's described, and that is incredibly difficult to do, and it's a massive barrier to change. The reason it's a barrier to change is because when you do that, when you say the things that we've said on this podcast today, when you say it and you step outside and you recognize those needs to change, whether if you reject the culture or you go against the norms, you're going against the community itself that you're part of, and you in turn end up feeling rejected. I don't know. And it's a witch trial because yeah, and it is incredibly lonely to do that. I have often described considering you know, being in the horse community and loving horses, you would think that you'd have a lot of friends within the horse community, you know, because we're around people who love horse culture, but you all have different cultural ideas of of what you want to do. And if if you like if you have different concepts of what a good life for horses is or what they need, just By the very fact that you do it differently, people can feel like it's a judgment against them. Do you get what I mean? Yeah, because again, and I'm a broken record on this podcast, it's not about the horse, it's about the people. Yeah. People have just found a thing that they can connect to other people with, and if those people have similar views and morals, then you connect and you feel safe and you form a tribe. You can meet other people who also like the same thing, but they have different thoughts and morals and ideas that challenge yours, and that doesn't feel safe, so then they are of a different tribe. Even though you all like the same thing, you now have left wing and right wing over the same topic. It's everywhere, it's it's humans, and yeah, there's a quote in the paper that I really liked here. And it's in it's in section five. Um, so it's about that feeling of not being able to speak up. And this participant says, You know, you see it, you're talking about it, but not a lot of people talk about it. I mean, I've thought about reaching out to equestrian sport organizations, but I'm also scared I'll get banned. So I'm like, I have to be careful because I can't show anymore, and it's that fear of excommunication and being a whistleblower, and again, it's that toxic community of the whistleblower being victimized and being per persecuted. And I'm like, okay, where else do we see that? Instead of the person who actually did it. Yeah, we see that in other areas of human beings that don't be different, don't go against the mold, don't challenge, don't but we need you to, like, we really need you to, and also you're really not alone. No, you're so not alone. You're not, you're so not alone. Like, it it can feel like that, like it can really super feel like that, you know. Um, but you would be surprised how many people like agree with you or agree with the sentiments we wouldn't be doing this podcast and we wouldn't have a job if it, you know, it wasn't the case. There are so many people, like I had some walk someone like a few years ago, Jen, it was really sweet. Like it was a client who literally said, My entire life I have been searching for an alternative. I've always loved horses. They actually put it into a review, I nearly cried. Um, I can't remember if I told you about this, but like they were like, I was searching for an alternative. Like they looked for Monty Roberts and natural horsemanship, and they were doing bits and pieces, and then they started doing some target training and positive reinforcement and taking the horse for walks, and they were like, and my whole life, like I'm in my late 30s, and this was it. This was it, this is what I was searching for. This was the connection I was looking for, you know, and it made me tear up because I'm just like pushing against the mould and breaking the mold meant I was able to find that person and give them something else that made them feel like they had a community. There are multiple communities, isn't just this equestrian culture that we grew up with. There are other communities, but it's so hard to break away, like as they like that person said, like afraid that they'd get banned and wouldn't be able to show anymore. And obviously, showing's really important to them. Maybe they're professional. They obviously care about it, yeah. And this is the thing, is like I was when I was reading this paper, um, I was trying I was really trying to get into the mindset of like, okay, professionals, this is their career. Yeah, and I'm thinking back to being a lecturer at university. And did I ever do things that was that was like um required of the job that I didn't agree with? So certain like marking parameters, or did I think that a student really didn't deserve that grade, to be honest, but um but this and that and whatever, and I was kind of pressured into you know the pass rate and all this jazz. Yeah, that happened. Um I have to think that's a very low impact situation, and these are athletes who are being paid, it's their for them to go against the mold, it's not just their morals on the line, it's literally their salary, it's literally their income, their reputation, their professional reputation. And I'm working more with professional competitors more than I ever have done, and it is reminding me because I feel like I did lose mentally a bit of touch, just how much pressure they're under, and also these horses aren't even always theirs, there's syndicates, there's owners. And yeah, if you've been doing this industry for 10 plus whatever years and you had that stripped from you, yeah, what are you gonna do? I know. And I get it, you can feel very, very up against the back against the wall, and as if you have no options but to conform. And that's not yeah, and then again, the focus has been put on the wrong person because there's somebody who has awareness and desire to do differently, and it is the industry itself, the bigger arcing, the the structure of the industry that's at fault because it's not allowing any flexibility. Yeah, it's it's so hard. And the thing is that I have such empathy for this, like I really, really do. Like, and I'm not expecting everybody to just go like you know, sack off your community and push on and stuff, like you know, if doing things quietly and privately with your own horse in your own way and you do certain things to conform, like one of the things that I do to conform, and it does happen, like you know, if I'm out hacking with my own horse or I go out and I do stuff, like I will often go out my bitless bridle. If I go out for a group hack, I'll put on my bitted bridle, and that's primarily because I just don't want any comments. You know, I just want to fly under the radar if I want to go out for a group hack and stuff, you know, even though I know my horse doesn't like it as much as her other bridle. Um, but it's just easier to conform, you know, because I am but human and it is just easier to do that. Um because it's really Yeah, it's it's just it's just easier. Again, I have literally like people feel like they can yell random things. Like, you know, if I go out with my bumbag, right? Like I have people always ask, like, what's that? Why have you got that on? And I'm like, you know, or I I've given I like I've stopped and given her a treat or a scratch, and people go, You're just giving her treats, and they laugh at you and you're like, Why? I fed my horse. Why can't I I you know, no, took the nose band off. I don't if I if I ride with a bit of bridle, like I don't wear a nose band, no nose bands, no problems, um, back in the day. And I I people go, Where's your nose band? Like people will make comments about it. Not so much anymore, I think it's a little bit more normalized. Well, the British uh dr uh brush dressage is now I don't know if it's happening yet, but they are removing like you like they're becoming optional. Yeah, which is optional. Which is awesome. So again, it gets more normalized. Yeah, you know, barefoot, careful you don't get yourself a problem. I've been told that. Um, like pe I I once it was a Christmas party a couple of years ago, take a Christmas kind of event type thing. Um, like again, out in the community. I had someone I had never met before in my life walk up to me and say to me, Well, you know they're not dogs, Barbara. And I was like, Hello, what's your name again? Who are you? You know, in referring to just like training with food. And I was like, What? What you know, so I again I'm not expect I I wouldn't, you know, expect anyone to be like you gotta push back or speak out, you know. It's I like it's very hard to do that and break the mold. It does I do feel like it puts a bit of a target on your back. Oh, damn. So I understand these statements, and people do feel like they can just comment on it. But if you conform and you do everything that everybody else is doing, life is easier, life is quieter, you can get on and do the things that you enjoy doing, you know, and you as you say, if it's your career, you it's important to do those things. Like, in order to continue the career, that is probably paying for your mortgage and keeping food on the table and doing all the other things, you know. It's easy to have those moral convictions, like, but are they always applicable in a real world s situation? Like I always dangerous on both sides, Jen. Yeah, it's dangerous on both sides, it's really tricky to be in the middle. Um 100%. Yay! I just we said the name of the podcast. We're going on, we've got to wrap this up soon. Um I was saying that just made me laugh. Like, you know they're not a dog. I just feel like you should be like, Why? Oh, you know, I've been having so many troubles for so many years. I wondered what was wrong. I didn't really that's a dog, that's that's not a dog. I thought that we were at kennels. Oh my god, carrying round poop bags the size of my head. Um I was going through so many of them. I wondered why these jackets never fit in my horse. It's not a dog. Anyway, sorry. It's like that one that one was particularly mad. I was just standing there with David, like, did I just get randomly accosted by a stranger? Because obviously, like we've got a public profile, so even if I don't know who people are pretty much, you know, may know who I am. And I now to be fair, I may have been introduced to him at some point and I just forgot because that also happens. But that one was probably, you know, although I was doing groundwork and liberty work with my horse once, and you know, um, the yard manager at the time yelled, you can learn nothing from the ground at me, you know, as in like you should be riding your horse, you know. See, these are the people where I'm just like you really need to open a book. Anything else that you wanted to add? We start to wrap this up. This guy's this paper is huge. There's a lot of stuff we haven't gone into. I know there's a people, there's three whole pages of discussion. But do you have any I'm just looking at my notes. Did you have anything in your notes that you wanted to? A little paper. I guess some of the biggest things about this is the fact that one of our biggest issues is culture and challenging culture, and nothing was ever achieved without discomfort. And I want to champion people advocating for their horse in whatever whatever kind of sphere that looks like. Because I said something earlier about the people who are worried aren't the ones who should be worried, and by that I mean if you're listening to this and you want to advocate for your horse and you're worried that, oh well, if I advocate for my horse and I say this, people will pick me up on XY in Z, you are not the issue of the industry because you're already identifying, you're way ahead. You're saying you're trying to give your horse enrichment in the field, or maybe you're trying some less pressure-intense training methods, or you're incorporating a positive reinforcement, but you also know that your turnout is bad, that there isn't a good surface in the arena. Because you have awareness of that, you're trying to mitigate and balance to improve your horse's welfare, you are the gold standard, you are the new horse owner, you are the pioneer, you are the flagship. It's if you are there with self-doubt, you are of the new generation that we need in the industry. It's the people who are not open to change, who if you find any of this challenging and that it is it almost feels like it's attacking, I would really like you to sit with that emotion and try and work out where that's coming from. Because most of what we've spoken about today comes back to scientific things that we know about the ethology and the evolution of the horse and what our breed-specific needs are. Um breed specific? Yeah, no, no, species specific. Species specific. Sorry, messing, mixing up my words. Yeah. Um what's okay? I would have taken breed, I knew what you meant. And that's not something that is an opinion. So socialization, foraging, freedom of movement, friends foraging, freedom friends forge, freedom. They're just one of those orders. Things that cannot be there's there is no argument about it. There's no argument, there's no discussions. It just is this yeah, this is it. Like horses weren't evolved to carry us around. No, you know, like again, not an opinion. That is just the science. Yeah. They are we are we have we domesticated them and we utilize them, you know, and their ability to carry a rider, and we do things with them for either human ego and human pleasure, and I say all of that as a person who owns a horse and utilizes her horse. Like when I go down and do something with my horse, it is for my enjoyment, and I hope that there's some enjoyment that I try and get to her. But by acknowledging those things as true and real, you are making sustainable change because it will make you think twice about doing things, and you are already going to be a better like horse owner. There's a friend of mine who, you know, while I was giving myself a hard time about not doing enough for for Blossom and going, you know, I wish I could give her more, I wish she had more like, you know, turnout, I wish I could do, you know, sitting there going, I wish I could give her a better life. Like, you know, I put her in my back garden if it, you know, meant like she could have more time outside, you know, because turnout as a is a big issue in this country. Like, you know, the dream is to bring her home one day, you know, and have somewhere where, you know, I can sit with a cup of coffee. Actually, she trashed the place, never mind. Um, like from a safe distance. But I was saying to a friend of mine, giving myself a hard time because I wish I could do more, and she sort of stopped and like we we were standing by the field and she looked those horses out, um, and she was out with them, and she went, which one of those horses would you prefer to be? Yeah, absolutely. Like of all those horses, which one do you want to be? And I was like, Oh, I'd be blossomed. And she was like, Then there you go. Ask yourself that question. If you're sitting on the yard, go, which one of the would you be your own horse? You know, like knowing what what they get and knowing what their experiences in life is. And I think somebody actually says that in this paper, like you know, they they they caveated it and said, I'd love to be if it could re-reincarnate and come back as a middle-aged woman sports horse, you know. Well, and I was like, rolling the dice there, pick one. Well, yeah, I was just gonna I was just gonna open a can of worms there and say, Well, that's your that's that's you wanting to be blossom because owned by you. Yes. And again, we have this exactly we've fallen straight back into the trap of human opinion because what that person is it's the whole racehorses are treated like kings. Yes, exactly. That's what your perception of welfare is, and I guess I would love to just I guess I guess if if I could do if there's Oh challenge me on that. Yeah, I think there's like it's it's more just a it's what is fact. Sorry, go on. You know, so it's trying to be more I would love uh it's not that everyone needs to become a scientist, it's just that people need to ideally move away from thoughts and feelings and opinions and just keep going back, just have a tick list and just be looking back, you know, does this horse have you know forage like complete unutter access to forage at least 20 hours a day? You know, that doesn't involve conflict and fighting of other horses, does it have access to socialization which involves multiple herd members of the same height and species in an open space that is not controlled by tack or equipment? Do they have the ability to move or have some sort of elective choice in where they go in the day? Those things are all just yes or no questions. And like, and also is that if if anything is a no, is there something that you can do about it? You know, rather than giving yourself a hard time, which I think was the bad point I was trying to make. Yeah. Rather than give yourself a hard time for things that were done in the past and less ideal situations, asking yourself a question now that I know better, can I do better? Is there anything about this that I can improve? Is there anything that I can change and tweak rather than justifying it, you know, and going like, oh well, you know, but they're well cared for, so it's okay. And you know, going like, okay, this is a no, they're not getting enough, so can I offer them more? Can I do more? What more can I do to ensure that they're meeting those needs? Or consider moving, you know. Sometimes we have to consider doing feel under attack. Move, Barbara, move yards. What was I saying? Move yards. Yep, I think so. Subsame, we're not gonna go, we're gonna wrap this up, but the subscribe I think we're just wrapping it. There's there's not really much yeah, we're wrapping this up. Yeah, we've been here for a while. If you're still with us, like um, like there's various subsections as they guys, if you want us to talk about it more, we can always come back, but I think we're cracking on to two hours, it's probably um time to disappear. So I'd say the sub theme three, recognizing harm and breaking away. Breaking away maybe sometimes is the answer. But breaking away from what the culture is at the minute doesn't necessarily mean you're being isolated. There is a new age, there is a new community we are forming, we're here, reach out to us. Um, there's more of you than you think. The fact that we are able to run a podcast, run our businesses, and do the things that we do m tells you that there are people paying for our services, that provides us the time and the facilities to do a podcast, to do everything that we do because there's a need and desire. It might feel like you're on your own, you're really, really not. And we work with people all over the UK, Ireland, internationally, online, in person. It's happening, it's just that if you're in this new age of mindset, you're you're pioneering your flagship, you're at the start of it. It can feel very lonely, but hopefully, although you know we've been a bit angry, and you know, there's things in this this podcast that this episode that have been pretty challenging. I am really happy that this paper has been done because it's highlighting the fact that's been paper's been written highlights a desire for change and for changing opinions and mindset. So that's gotta be celebrated. A hundred percent, yeah. And like I couldn't agree with you more. And like, and also as well, you know, uh the backlash to the backlash, you know. All we talk about, I say just to you know highlight Jen says like not being alone and the fact that we we do operate both of our businesses and run podcasts and very publicly talking about something that is really challenging, is a really difficult concept, is really hard, like that people do feel like they're isolated if they speak out, and we're quite happily talking about it, you know, because we know that we're not alone and that it is a conversation like that a lot of people are having, you know. So yeah, as you say, it is hard to break away it, you know, and do something, but you're not alone, you're not going to be a target, like and sometimes it might be easier to stay, but like honestly, if it doesn't sit well with you, you know, what am I trying to say, Jen? Trust your ghost. Yeah, trust your ghost. There we go. Thank you. Jen did it for me. I think it's because I really need to go to the bathroom now. Um so Barbara's got where she's telling her she needs to go to the toilet. Yes, absolutely, because honestly, like I could talk to you about it forever. Um, like I really could. There's so much here, like there is so much here, and I love talking to Jen about this stuff because like you know, like and like it's the one thing and why we love doing this, this isn't on my notes as well, is like you know, there's a couple of times I've given an example and Jen will challenge me on it and we'll have a discussion, you know. And I think that's what's missing in the horse industry as well, with the culture, is like when we're challenged on something, like there's such a wall that's put up going like, Oh no, you can't, you know. But it needs to be a conversation, and it's okay to have those challenging conversations, absolutely, you know, and it's okay to like disagree and continue to have the conversation, you know. Um, but like they can be informed and they can be professional and then they you know, and they can actually be constructive. So you go away and you go, Oh, that was a really nice point. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Do you know? Yeah, I'm gonna add one more point because I feel like it needs to be said and I haven't said it, and that's collaboration. Because I said earlier about before we know what we get left wing, right wing, them and us, different tribes. But ultimately, and it's one of our hardest things that we all find in human society is teamwork and collaboration. But that is where I honestly think that results and change will happen, which is different areas who have different experiences and different expertise, not opinions, not mindsets, expertise, coming to the table, sharing those expertise and working collaboratively and positively to find solutions instead of just shouting issues at each other. We're we're all very good at highlighting the issues and complaining and moaning, but there needs to be more discussions about solutions that are actually achievable and can be actually implemented and not just saying every international needs to have turnout paddocks, it's not going to happen. So, what can we what's the compromise? Where can we find some common ground and make positive changes? And that's where it has to start, and that's where yards need to start with owners. The industry is changing, consumer desires are changing, we need to move forwards and adapt, and there will be compromises somewhere that can be found. And like just to you know, and to to mention when we talked about turnout a lot, but like one of the things that my yard has done, which again is very traditional, you know, old school hunting yard. Um, this they they started a couple created one a couple of years ago, and start in 2022 group turned out areas um quite big, like sm the size of a small arena, and now more have been created where there's group housing for horses that are big and open and they can move and they can be together. And they're awesome. Like I literally said to the Arden the other day, I was like, they are amazing, I love them. And he was like, Oh, do you like them? I'm like, I do, they are brilliant. Like commending good choices to make is just like so you know, if it's boggy ground, really rainy day, we can still have open spaces to turn out horses so they can be together and they can move. You know, was it the you shared it with me the other day, Jen, where they were talking about making it a legal requirement for a minimal of eight hours of some form of group turnout? Was that the was uh in Europe, you know? And it's like once once you kind of go like this is the minimum, you know, minimum eight hours. I think that's the latest in the research, isn't it? Oh yeah, 20 hours. Somewhere in Europe, yeah. I need to go back and then go ahead and yeah, like because it was and it was good, it's just like those little changes and stuff, and also it's like when we see it doing well, and to Jen's point, commending it, you know, saying that was nice, saying that was good, when we see not just like again, measuring we talked about earlier, not just like what do we define as successful when someone's you know jumped 120 or gone out and done something that's a feat of athleticism, but commending people for doing things that are outside of that, measuring your own success, you know. Yeah, someone who quietly walks their horse onto a horse box, you know, and gives them a bit of a carrot and a scratch, you know. That was really nicely done. Yeah, like that was a lovely bit of training. Yeah, you know, if it looks boring, like I can guarantee you somebody's put a lot of hard work into that. 100%, yeah. You know, so there's things like that, there's lots that we can do. Right, I think this needs to end. Um I'm gonna do minimal editing on this. Uh try and get it out. Um, probably as soon as possible, to be honest with you guys. And I know I mentioned it at the start, but I'll try and get the I'll republish the um uh wasted horse job one. I can't remember what I call that, um, as well. And yeah. And then I don't know what are we talking about next, Jen? We've got a couple of different ideas, um, but we've no idea. Whatever sparks our interest. Sorry, I was leaving a blank space there. Um, because you just asked me, what are we doing next, Jen? And I and I said this, and you were like, No, we're not gonna we're not gonna hem ourselves down to topics. Yeah, no, no, I know I realised that after I said I'm keeping all this in, by the way. Yeah, um I did say that, so I stand by my original comment. Um yeah. So backstory, I got really enthusiastic and gave Barbara loads of ideas for the podcast, and she shot down every single one of them. And then she's just done one of them there, and I'm like, pot kettle black, pot kettle black. Jen's rage comes back with a vengeance, like um. You've you've refueled my anger now for my emails. So it's gonna be great. No, that's that's perfect. Um, okay. Well, do you want to sign off then? Yeah, I hope you guys have enjoyed this one. We're back. It's gonna be hopefully we're gonna be trying more conversational styles, we're gonna try and talk about more different ranging things. So, you know, whether that's case studies, training, behaviour, things that happen in the news. Um, we just hope you enjoy the new season. I don't think I'm doing seasons anymore. I took out the seasons, I just went episode one, two, three, four. Yeah, but if you're gonna if you're gonna go back and things you say, I'm gonna go back and yeah, no, I know I know, but like because we had again, I'm keeping all this in because I'm not editing it, we had an argument about the me and Jen talk about discussions. We had an argument about when a new season started. Um and I wanted it like for an academic year, and then I was like, and then Jen wants it for like in July or something. I was like, no. Um so we had an argument about it, so I just removed them altogether. I was like, no, and just I can't I can't go seasons anymore. Um they're just whatever. Just just to just to save our relationship um from just to find about the admin side of things. Um but uh yes, I'm just and I'm gonna poke the bear and call this season three. So thanks for enjoying the first episode of season three, guys. Um good to have you on the journey here and look forward to seeing you in episode two of season three. And from Barbara Hardman and Jennifer Brown, thank you so much for listening. And uh yeah, we'll see you in the next one. See you there, guys. Bye.