“How Can I Tell if it’s Normal or Abnormal Behaviour?”

In this episode, we take a closer look at how to recognise what’s normal horse behaviour and what may be a sign that something is off.

We talk about how horses communicate stress, comfort, curiosity, pain, and emotional wellbeing and why context is everything. From subtle posture changes to bigger behavioural patterns, we explore how to observe horses with curiosity rather than judgement.

Understanding what is “normal” for an individual horse is key to good welfare, effective training, and strong relationship-building. This episode is all about tuning into the horse in front of us, listening to what they’re expressing, and responding in a way that supports them.

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:00

So what are we talking about today, Barb? What is a normal behaviour and what is an abnormal behaviour? And how to recognise the difference between them and what we can do and how to get help, basically. Yeah, because they can be quite confusing. It can be quite hard to differentiate between this is really annoying, I wish my horse didn't do this, and this is actually worrying me. But I think we've definitely come across stages and conversations where you know owners might be getting a bit upset and a bit frustrated with the behaviour, and it usually falls into two brackets. It's a case of okay, this is actually quite normal. Your horse is communicating, and no, this is really abnormal, we need to take this seriously, and actually we're gonna just call your vet now, and you know, this isn't even a safe place to train. So no, I like this topic. I think there's a lot we can delve into. And I think, like, just to kind of set the tone, I'm going to pull a dog example just to kind of give people an idea of what we're talking about. So hopefully people are familiar with dogs, you know, they've got cute fluffy ears and they live in our houses. Um, and hopefully people have either owned dogs or know people who own dogs for the sake of this. But I think dogs and horses go together pretty well. Oh, absolutely. But um, yeah, so we know dogs are our predators, so their normal behaviour is to chase, hunt, grab, kill, ingest. Like that is a normal behavior. As dog owners, we don't really want them to hunt, chase, kill our socks or our sofas, or our skirting boards. I have seen skirting boards, um, which is really impressive. So for us living in our house, I don't want all my clothes destroyed. I would like to wear my, you know, my socks. I don't want my t-shirts to chew through. I would like my doors and my sofa to stay intact. So for me, that's an unwanted behavior. I I don't want my things destroyed in the house. But for the dog, chewing is a normal behavior. It's a very normal, natural behavior for a dog. So, what me and Jen do in those situations, and this applies to all animals, is look at what is a normal behaviour for the dog or the horse to perform. That might be an unwanted behaviour for us because we are different species and we want to be able to live with them, work with them, and interact with them and use behavioural modification to be able to support their natural normal behaviour while still having socks. Um and yeah, we we're particularly we find this particularly difficult with companion animals like dogs or cats that live in our in our house because we're around them all the time, so they need to be able to do it. Whereas for horses, I think we're kind of uniquely placed where they're on a yard and we can provide them with some of those natural normal behaviours with turnout or in a stable environment or by enriching their lives that way, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm trying to give it an example, Jen, but I don't know if there's a I think there's a perfect example, and it's one of yours actually, and I love it. Is this with horses and it's horses foraging the tr the human tree? Oh yeah, I love that example, and it's yours. So I'm I I'm gonna take credit, I'm gonna take your example for you. Um, but I love that so it's Barbara's example of a really normal, healthy, equine behaviour that happens all the time, but humans, myself included, we find it so irritating. Um, and it is the horse foraging the human tree. So, what we mean by that is if you have food or treats, or you have had food or treats, or maybe you just smell particularly interesting. I always smell interesting. Oh, yeah, definitely. Especially if you you've hung around other horses or you've been in the hay barn or you've just picked up a smell that the horse finds intriguing. Anyway, for horses, foraging, sniffing, using their their upper lip to move your zip or pockets and stuff like that is so normal, so much fun and enriching for them. We get irritated because horses are a lot stronger than us, and we end up we just feel well, we all know the word mugging, or we feel pushed about, or the horse will then headbutt you, which again is actually a really natural normal thing because a horse might you know push a branch out of the way or like forge deeper into a hedge roll and try and get in there, or if you've ever seen horses trying to get grass from under snow, they will flip snow or paw at the snow to get under it. So I love that example because it's so bloody irritating, and if let's be honest, it makes most of us feel stupid, like we're getting pushed over by our horse. So that that's definitely an unwanted one, but it's so normal. And you know, like I had to um I had to change it to like uh foraging the human tree because what I used to say is no, I was gonna say like I I want to say, well, you could say butch if you want to, but like, yeah, that's that's no, I used to say I used to say to my clients is like, okay, this is what we want to do for anti-mugging because we they will just our corpse for food. And I'm like, I think you cannot just say that. The thing is, we would not get away with saying that in this country. And what this is it. So, like in Ireland, everybody would be like, ha ha, that's really funny. But you but like obviously you can't say that you can. I am shook. I am I did not expect you to say that. Yeah, I honest oh wow, wow. Um, no, I I I honestly thought you were gonna say foraging the human bush. How many of us thought we were going for that? That's that's that's just as good. But yeah, no, I used I used to say that, like, because uh just yeah, corpse for food. And the thing is, like, um my god, but it's funny because to say, like here, like I say dog and horse pants, like in Ireland, everybody would understand the joke and go, haha, yes, yeah, I understand it's funny. But like I say, as I got some UK clients, I was like, I can't. Like I lived in in Scotland for seven years, so I was like, I know there's certain things you just don't translate the same way. So it's like I can't say that, so I have to change it to you know, because I think I actually put it in one of my training plans, and David was like, You need to take that out, you cannot say that. I know you say it all the time, but you cannot put it in writing. Yeah, I think Apple will get very upset with us if we don't have explicit content if we include that just on this one, just on just this one, but yeah, like it's it is a normal natural behaviour for horses to use olfaction, smelling for the fancy word. Uh, there you go, put that in your word of the day. It's January, so you can be like, look, I learned a new word today. I'm so fancy. Um, and when you impress everyone, so they're it's really, really important for them to smell and forage and search for food and different food sources, and they can smell a hell of a lot better than us, and they can smell it on us. They, as Jen said, it's like if we've been, you know, we've been into the feed room or we filled up hay nets or whatever, there's different smells that are going to get on us. You might not even have yeah, you might not even work with food, you might not even have food on you, but you've got a carrot in your pocket because they're gorgeous and you want to give them a treat today, like or even just your tea, you've spilt your coffee on you. Yeah, there's so many horses that love the smell of coffee, and you've spilt it on yourself, or it's on your sleeve, or whatnot, or you've just drank it and it's on your breath. Horses love the smell of coffee. Or if you're like me and I'm rushing in the morning, um, I have done it before where I've spilt my coffee just down my front and I've gone to turn blossom out, and she will just start like licking the my chin to get the coffee I spilt up, and I'm like, okay, I'm a coffee fiend, but you cannot be a coffee fiend. Oh so yeah, like they they love to and all that sort of stuff, and it I say it's a normal, natural behavior. And again, to to go back to you know, the I say the dog example. If you're familiar with visiting a friend or coming home, your dog jumps up on you. Again, that that's a normal natural behavior for for dogs as a social species to to greet you when you come home and they're jumping up and they're going, Oh my god, you're amazing, you know, like my whole world is returned, you know. But we don't necessarily want them to jump up it. The bigger the dog is, it could actually be an unwanted behavior. Again, it could be more dangerous because if you have a small child or an older person or just me because I'm off balance, they knock me over. So, again, normal natural behavior, but an unwanted behavior. So, in those situations, we want to be able to teach our horses a way of being able to interact with us safely, still perform those natural, normal behaviors, but in a human-friendly and a human-centric way. So, when you're in the field, by all means go and forage a normal hedgerow, find blackberries, eat the ivy, do whatever it is that you're doing. Um, that's just what my horse does. So I don't recommend taking ivy to any horses listening to the show. No, that's all she ever does. And I'm like, please don't do that. That's their natural normal behaviour. They can go and do that when they're in the field, they can go and do that when they're out, but around the human, they cannot do this. So that's where we teach them how to do it. And you know, a lot of people call that food manners, something that's you know commonly used or anti-mugging training. Yeah, I mean that's the that then we get into the crux of human language, and it depends on your connotations and different words. And this is where I kind of just say to some clients, like, if you don't like my phrasing but you understand the principle, feel free to word it differently if that feels better. Because at the end of the day, there's so many different ways we can say the same thing. Some people don't like anti-mugging because it's very it's a negative thing, and try to stop the horse from doing something. Some people don't like the idea of teaching a horse manners, so I'm just like, right, cool. We can call it whatever we want. What we're gonna do is say to the horse, that's cool, you can do that behavior, not on me, do it over here. Happy life. We're all good. Yeah, I don't mind anti-mugging, but as you say, like it has like that negative connotations. It's funny because like I personally don't like food manners because I'm like, well, as far as the horse is concerned, and again, this is my animal behavior brain on they don't need it. They're like, I'm being perfectly mannerly. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like would you say when in Rome? Like a horse is going when in Rome, like this is what we do, we forage, you know. This is what they do. This is this is normal, and so it's very much so. You know, if we really want to get super pedantic about it, and this is our podcast, so I'm going to, um, if you wanted to, you could turn around and say, like, okay, well, what we want to do is teach a horse how to operate in a human-centric world. Like, you know, that that's ultimately what it what it's coming down to. Um, like it's fine for you to do it, and also as well, I just I I think it's worth saying, you know, what is one problem behaviour for one person is not necessarily a problem behaviour for another person. Yeah, true. Um, and I and I was talking to a friend of mine about this over the weekend, actually, because both me and her kind of were very laissez-faire with our horses, and you know, and they'll just sort of wander about and sniff things and squeal at people, and do you know like the I say people, they're going to talk to other horses in the barn, and you know, there's a squeal and there's a you know, and some people would be like, Oh no, I don't want that to happen, you know. Um, or they sort of wander about, or yeah, that's another that's a very normal equine behavior that some people just can't stand is the squealing and oh don't don't let don't let them touch noses, don't let them touch, don't let them talk. Or there's a big yeah, and yeah, and this is it, like and for a horse it's really normal. Um, and we were talking about this over the weekend because she was like, Oh, I'm pretty sure people don't like it when I just wander around the bar with my horse doing that, and I do that, and I was like, I do the same, and I said exactly the same thing. I was like, What is an unwanted behavior for some people, and they don't want their horses to do that, doesn't necessarily mean that it's an unwanted behaviour for us, and this comes into like different, you know, everybody is different in that way, like, and just because your horse does something that other people might go, Oh, you know, I don't like that, that's okay. Like, that is totally okay. You, you're okay, you know, you're allowed to have your horse behave the way you want your horse to behave, yeah. Around you, because that's what I mean by like, so when I say food manager anti-mogging, that's why I'm like, I you know, how can we teach our horses to live in our human-centric world and and teach them the skills to be able to adapt to what we want? Yeah, that reminds me of a conversation I had. Uh I'd uh I had a student um doing their degree Shadow Me for the Day a couple months ago, and uh this reminds me of a conversation that we had um about it's because I'm trying to explain the fact that they're gonna see very different things between different clients and different horses, and it's not my job or is it my goal to make mini me's like I want my clients and their horses to be the best versions of them within their partnership. Yeah, so I was like, you'll see you'll see some partnerships doing this and some doing that, you'll see some that really don't like doing this and some love doing that. And I'm like, my job, my role, or my goal is that it's the best you know, collaboration between that horse and that human as possible that they are both happy, safe, and confident, and their lives and their lives are enriched and happy, and and like I say, for me, it's mainly about being being safe and confident, and that includes the horse feeling safe and confident and the human. And like that's gonna look different for different people and different horses, and it's it's our job, right? So the onus is on us as the professionals in that situation to be able to assess that. So, you know, and I say the same thing to to my clients like so I might go out to somebody who you know is gonna live a very different life from me. So, like, I have no kids, I have a husband and a cat and a dog, you know, like that's that's my that's my life, right? And um, like David works from home, so I'm it's great that we got got that. So we have different abilities to be able to walk the dog or feed the cat or do whatever at different times of day. If I go out to a client who's got, you know, it's a superwoman with three kids, two horses, you know, a load of chickens, and everybody's working from home, she's doing the school run, or he's doing the school run, that's gonna be a very different environment and for for them to be able to work in with those animals. And I have to look at that environment and say, okay, so this is the problem behavior here, you know, it's problem behavior one. Um, this is the environment, this is your life work and your schedule and what you're doing. How can we find the best way while working in your environment? Yeah, because it's not about you, as I say, it's not about becoming minimes. I'm not gonna turn around and say, Okay, well, you need to do this quit your job, uh, tell the kids they have to look after themselves, um, and you know, and do all the rest of it. It's like, no, there's a lot there's the you know, there's many ways to skin a cat. I don't where does that expression come from actually? Oh, I don't know, it's a horrible one, but it just one is what we say though, is yeah, there's many roads to roam is a nicer one. Thank you. That's that's a that's a much nicer one. Um Monty's not as offended, but um yeah, like so it's it's not and I see this a lot, um particularly with not so much with my horse clients, but with with my dog clients, where I'd usually get clients sort of say, Oh, well, if we did try this as someone else had recommended, or we've seen on you know social media, or it's what all the books say to do, but we found it didn't really work. And part of that reason will because it didn't fit into you know their environment and their lives, so they weren't able to be able to utilize it either properly or it didn't work for them. And I'm like, that's fine, I'm not gonna ask you to do that, it's up to me to come up with a new solution, yeah. And like because I'm the professional here, there are other ways to do it, and so when me and Jen go into these situations with horses, like we're looking at everything that's there to be able to modify it, and it's not about creating mini, you know, I should say mini me's um, and I say what works for one person and one horse isn't going to work for everyone, and it's about adapting that. Yeah, so some of it is just it is management changes, some of it is you know, like we're not gonna say, okay, you need to move yards and well, yeah, sometimes I do this change that too. Well, sometimes sometimes that is the answer, unfortunately. Sometimes it is the answer. Um, but I kind of feel like this is our topic for our next episode on why training isn't working, you know, a talk about the everything else. So I have an idea for this episode is if we just go through a whole list of behaviours that you know we know are very common in the industry, that we hear our clients talking about, and we'll just have a quick discussion. Does it fit the normal and annoying or abnormal and worrying categories? How does that sound? Yeah, that sounds brilliant because as we've kind of alluded to in the first bit, there's lots of there's lots of behaviours that are normal but you know, like frustrating and unwanted for us as a human. But some of these they cross over a little bit, you know, they do cross over. Some of them can be normal but slightly concerning and okay. It's yeah, oh it's yeah, and I'm so glad you said that because the first example that popped to my head actually sits in that tricky in the middle kind of place. So the name of the bug thing I know, I know, I I did it, I did it. Um so the first one that came to my mind, because it's very topical for this time of year when horses are stabled and we need a lot of rugs at the minute for the weather, is pulling rugs off racks or or chucking the head collar outside their stable, you know, when just anything, call you know, it's a rug, head collar, whatever. When horses lean over their stable door, they grab onto something, they chuck it around and toss it on the ground. Wave destruction. Yeah, total. So so annoying, especially if you've got one of these horses that drags it into the stable and then stands on it and pee they always pee. Why do you think? I just sent you a photo this morning of exactly that wave of destruction that I yeah, the the rug was in there, the bed was everywhere, the feeder was knocked over, the booker was on the ground, and I was like, Oh my god. Yeah, so on the face of it, there's lots of normal things going on there. Okay, so horses like using their mouths, horses are inquisitive, horses do actually like using their brains and playing with things. Horses are actually quite playful, especially young horses are very investigative, and especially if a horse has learned that when they do these sorts of things, people come over to the stable, so they could be a bit you know, fed up, bored, they're stuck in the stable for a while. Reuben loves picking up things in his mouth, and which is where picking up the cone and playing fetch has been fun and easy because it's a very normal thing for him to do. He loves holding things, so he very often redirecting that into a game, yeah. Yeah, um, so he will pick up his feed bucket, his feedball by the handle, and and throw it around and drop it over the stable door, and very often people will just pop it back over the door for him because they're like, oh, it's not reinforced. It's being reinforced, absolutely. So annoying can be normal, but I mean, I know you're already going hmm but but but but but this can sit in the middle and actually be a bit concerning. So there's something that you said to me this morning, Barbs, about um Blossom when you sent me that. What do you want to do a way of destruction? Yeah, a way of destruction. What were you thinking? Oh, I was thinking, okay, something's not right here. That's the you know, straight away as like you know, it's I did say like all the normal parts of behaviour, but it was a particularly bad way of destruction. Um, and there was a couple of things that popped into my head. Number one, it was actually quite cold last night, and I had a lighter rug on her, and I was like, okay, was there a lot more movement in the stable to stay warm? So is there something that she's missing in that species-specific behavior? Or, you know, did she have enough forage last night to keep her warm? Because that's really, really important. So horses will stay warm with not just the shelter that we provide them with, but also, you know, obviously, if they are clipped, putting putting a rug on them, you know, keeping them warm and dry, that's really important, and the shelter, but also really critically the forage that they've had. So I'm like, did I did I make sure she had enough forage last night? Yeah, you know, was part of that wave of destruction because she's on straw bedding, was it looking for other forms of forage? Was it Her foraging the stable. Does she pull down the rug, knock over her feeder, toss everything to one side in a looking for more food because it was slightly cold last night? Absolutely. So I'm like, okay, so I'm doing that detective work. I'm going, there's a normal behavior, but what is the normal behavior? We know that it's as they like it's a normal behavior for horses because they are, you know, pulling the rug down, tossing things over, searching for things. We know that that happens when they search hedgerows, as we talked about at the start of this episode, you know, when they they they paw and they look for food under snow. So taking what what what would it normally look like? And what is it looking like in the stable? You know, so I'm going, okay, you know, so what I've done for tonight is I've just it's going down to like minus I think minus three, minus five. Um so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna put normally I just have like a rain sheet on her to keep dry. I was like, right, I'll I'll put an extra rug on her just to make it more comfortable, and I've put in an extra couple of browsing spots. Now she's out being a piglet for the day, but I've put some extra browsing spots inside the sable within like her across the other sides, there's another pile of hay, there's another just to make sure she has enough forage. Um, and I'm going to give her some just beet pulp tonight, just again to kind of bulk up in case she gets cold, so that the sea can will help keep her warm during the night, in case that is part of the factor. So it's looking at those and going, okay, how can I do you know, some some management to support her in that situation? Yeah, absolutely. And you just said a couple of things that I think are really, really important and helpful tips for horse ownership in the winter that I think we forget that not everyone knows. Um, so you're talking about multiple foraging sites. I think when people hear that, they very often go, I can't feed my horse anymore. You don't have to do that. You can just take if you're if you're being very diligent and you're weighing your horse's allowance, you know, if you're on a bit of a diet, maybe they're 1.2% of their body weight, or 1.5, or maybe you're on 2% of their body weight, whatever your horse's diet is on. Hopefully it's been guided by an independent nutritionist, so you're getting those numbers correctly. You don't necessarily need to be feeding them more, you can just take your hay allowance and split it up. Spread it. Yeah, yeah, make those smaller nets, or um use your hay balls, hay bags, even just piles of loose hay, mix it in with straw, whatever. So that's to help them move a little bit more exactly. I I know I put it off on my social media, I got so many messages about the ball because everybody wanted to know where I got it from. So it's actually a dog toy. Um, I might link it into the description for this show. I have to send it on to people. Uh so I might link it into the description notes if people have seen it. Oh, yeah, do you please check out my my social media? So it's basically a silicone rubber ball at the size of my head. It's it's not a huge amount, so it stretches, so it's a stretchy, rubbery kind of thing. So, you know, it's not hard plastic that if they step on it that it could break. Because sometimes that can happen with some of those slow feeders that we've put into the stable. They're made of a harder plastic, and if they kick it or break it or lie on it, then it can break. And I mean, I don't really worry about it with blossom too much because she's just a wave of destruction. So it's basically a silicone rubber uh hay bowl, and you know, you can either just chuck them into the stable, you know, because they if they lie on them, it's fine because it's silicone rubber, it's not going to break and it's not going to hurt them. Um you can fill it full of hay or chaff. It's because of the holes are different sizes as well. Sometimes you just put chaff in and then shove some carrots and stuff in. So it can be the same amount of food. So sometimes, like if I'm not giving her, I don't really give her hard feed very often. Um sometimes I give her chaff, you know, to just make it a bit more palatable in some carrots, and sometimes I shove it into that, just fire a couple of them into the stable. Sometimes I hang them up because if you hang them up or you put them to the side, they've got to knock them and move about, so they are moving a little bit more in the stable. So you can take, as Jen says, that hay provision and put it into something else, and there's your multiple forage sites and put them in different places. So that normal behaviour that horses will perform by moving around the stable and looking for different things and pulling rugs off and knocking feeders down, we're redirecting that into another legal, legal foraging, should I say? So we're taking that normal, natural behaviour that horses perform and giving them an outlet that means that when you get up on a Monday morning to muck out your horse's stable, it's not a complete way of destruction like I'm at this morning. Yeah. I think it's it's important to note that although we're saying you know it's it's normal for horses to investigate and use their mouths and play and interact with their environment, very often it is a display of frustration. That can be frustration from because you know Blossom might have been a bit cold or hungry, so it can be frustration that they can't access something for what they want, or it can be an expression of boredom, it can be it can be an expression of pain, but we'll you know we'll talk about some other examples about that further down. But it's just noticing that you know, as much as we're saying the actual action is normal, the repetitive repetition of that behaviour every time they're in a stable, or even the progression of it, that is not normal, and then we have to start thinking about okay, why is the horse doing it? Now it might be simple as my example with Ruben, where he doesn't do anything to his rugs. The only time he does this is chucking his feedball over the door. He very often times it for people, and that has been reinforced by a person. So that does that absolutely does happen, and you will find younger horses and older horses to be fair, who will pick up their head collar and will love nothing more, but to spin it around like a frisbee and then throw it across the yard. A person comes over, picks it up, puts it back on the hook. That's being reinforced. Yeah, exactly the same as a dog. That's how we teach them fetch, it's it's reinforced. Like you bring it, they bring it back, you throw it again, they're like, Oh, brilliant! You know, that's this is how this works, you know. Um, it's funny, that leads really nicely into kicking the stable door. Yes, completely, like you know, so and I and I see this, and we've all done it. I just you know, I'm just gonna hands up there. They start kicking the stable door, and it's like a child who's going, When's dinner ready? When's dinner ready? When's dinner ready? and you're like, down it'll be down, you know, it's that, yeah, you know. So, you know, if you have turned around and gone, stop it, that is totally normal. I think everybody's done that at some point. Yeah, but it actually ends up reinforcing the behavior, like it it, you know, it's a it's um, as Jen says, sign of frustration, you know. So Kegel and Stable Door is like, you know, I want food, I'm hungry, I want something. They're trying to get our attention, and then we inadvertently reinforce it by either giving them the attention by coming over to them, or we go, Oh, do you want another pile of hay? And then we throw a pile of hay in, and then we've just reinforced it. So it's become it becomes a learned behavior. The horse goes, This is how the human knows that I'm hungry. Yeah, yeah, but even shouting for some horses that's enough. Even if you know, if you think that the the horse is going, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mum, Mum, Mum, and you go, What? You've interacted with them, and the child goes, Great, that works. If I if I repeatedly pull in mum's trouser leg and say mum mom mom mum mom mom, mum will turn around and look at me and talk to me. Yeah, it will happen. Now, this is only talking, this conversation so far has only covered the learning side. We haven't addressed the what's causing the behavior. So our advice in this moment is not just ignore your horse. We do trying to communicate. Yeah, they are trying to communicate. So is pawing and kicking at an object a normal behavior? Yes, it's a normal way for a horse to communicate frustration, or they might be playing with an environmental thing. Usually it's frustration and communication in this regard. So then we have to work out, okay, why are they doing it? You know, yeah. Because I I have been out to consultations where you know it has been like kicking the stable door and all the rest, and what will happen is the horse will kick the stable door, and you know, someone goes over and goes, Oh, do you want more food? In the thing going, like, okay, they're trying to communicate. I'm listening to my horse, what do you want? They go over, the stable is full of hay, and they're not eating it, and they go, But you've got loads of food, what do you want? And then they walk away, and then the kicking starts again, and then they go back over and they go, What do you want? And it's and in that situation, and this is where like you know, going out and observing the behavior is really, really important because as Jen said, it's like there's the reinforcement, it's not actually about the food in that situation. That they're looking for attention, so like if you ignore them, you actually might increase the stress. There might be something else that that horse wants. So, again, tricky, it you know, that that one's a kind of a challenging one. You know, how much of it is reinforced in a learned behaviour, yeah, and how much of it is that there's something else at play that the horse needs or wants, and is just trying to communicate that, and we need to try and be detectives and figure that out. Yeah, it is a hard one, especially when you're on livery yards, and you can do the best shaping plan in the world to try and detrain the behaviour. Once once you've decided okay, the horse isn't in pain, he has everything he needs in the stable, and they get great turnout, you know, all these things. Um, is that feed time at the yard on the horse's kick, and you know, and this isn't a dig at staff or anything. I've worked on enough yards to know that you've got a job to do, you've got to crack on, you can't just stop, and then plus you couldn't be halfway down the line of stables and start training a horse and then cause severe frustration to every other horse in the yard. So very often, doors, horses are kicking the doors, and the bucket comes over the stable door, you know, it gets reinforced whether you like it or not. So, one thing I do like to suggest to people who are in that situation is is it possible that everything is in the stable already? I was about to say that's usually what I suggest in that situation too. So if they've gone out in the morning, in you know, instead of bringing them in and then bringing them their feed, try and have the feed in the stable. Yeah. Already, ready to go, and and hay and everything, just have it all primed and ready. And that can be a bit of what we call extinction work. So if we've set up the environment to to to basically mean the horse doesn't have to perform the behaviour in the first place, then the behaviour can, by process caused extinction, actually start to become detrained without you necessarily having to tackle it head on. And it's one of it's one of the nicest and least confrontational ways to deal with behavioural issues, and it comes down to something that I talk about a lot of my clients: environment first. You know, what can we do with the environment to help retrain or detrain a behaviour before we have to tackle it head on? Because the majority of people that I know I deal with are on livery yards, and you know, like I say, yard staff, yard owners is a tough enough gig as it is to expect them to start changing everything is too much. Absolutely. So we try and do them a different way around it. So and also as well, it helps us figure out if it is say a learned behaviour or if there's something else happening as well. Yeah, because it'll keep it'll keep happening if it's if there's something else going on. Um my Mayor Taylor, um the one who's retired back up in Scotland with mum, um, we were on a fantastic yard uh down in Yorkshire, and she had a fantasti amazing turnout, beautiful big straw bed, the biggest pile of homegrown hay and hailage ever, and it wasn't in hay and it's all in the ground, um, and a huge stable, no reason to be getting cast or anything. And the yard manager used to tell me that they could hear her kicking the stone walls in the night, and they thought one night they thought she was cast and they came out, she was just stood there. But every now and again she would absolutely rollick the back wall. Started getting terrified about you know pedal bone fractures and stuff. But long story short, not only did she have kissing spine, she also had spondylosis of the spine what went down into the rib cage. So the lack of movement overnight, even even though they did they didn't come in until like four or five o'clock in the winter, and they went out at like 6 a.m. Like as far as like winter turnout goes, she had really good. But that was enough immobility to cause her pain. Yeah, and interestingly that you you said that it just reminds me of another case worked on again, very similar. Again, was kicking the wall, and again, you know, came up with exactly we did all the bits and pieces, food in, sorted it, all the rest of it, but kicking the wall was still happening, and you could actually and it was concrete wall, so again, same clear on the back, and there was actually two different things happening. The horse didn't like the horse beside, yeah. Yeah, that's one that was and you know, and you know, one horse really wanted to be friends with the other horse, and you know, it was and but the other one didn't want and it was just like okay, so this this we need to to move this around a little bit, um, and the second one was feather mites, uh they had melanders and scatter, and like so part of it was even when we moved the other horse, still kicking and scrubbing that wall. And we're like, why is that happening? Itchy foot, yeah, yeah. You know, so we talk about when does an a normal behavior become abnormal, yeah, abnormal, and that there's some other underlying thing, and that one for me is a great example because not only was there a medical condition that needed to be supported, and that we do that in conjunction with our vets, there's also a behavioural component of you know, some horses don't like other horses, and that's fine. Yeah, you know, exactly. That's absolutely fine. I don't like everybody, yeah. That's and nobody likes everybody, not everybody likes me. I was about to say nobody likes me. I like you know, not everybody likes me, and that's absolutely fine, you know, like and it's the same for our horses, so you know, that is you know, that that kind of example is like taking that behaviour and investigating it if we think that there's something else going on and bringing in that collaborative approach with the yard staff to help move the horses around. Absolutely the social thing, and bringing in our vets to be like, okay, can we treat the the underlying dermatical, you know, dermatological, dermatological skin condition? You know, and to be able to support the horse that way, absolutely, you know, because like at the end of the day, kicking out because of pain or irritation, normal, yeah, but repetitively kicking out wall, not normal, you know, for the horse to put itself in that in that sort of feeling. So that leads us on to I feel like I feel like we're going through a process here, so we've talked about some stuff in the stable. Um again this time of year, um, because by now the horses have been stable for a while. Now we're all getting a bit this happens at the start of winter and at the end of winter as well. Um, when people turn horses out, and you know, they break away at the gate and they buck and they fart and they spring, and we get all these videos and cows as well. We get lots of videos of cows as well. Oh, they're being turned out on grass. Yeah, exactly. It's exactly that. Oh, they're having so much fun. It's so cute, you just did it. Thanks. Thanks for there's I know, it's just it was because I was imagining the cow. I know, and it's so hard, it's so hard. And rabbits do this as well. It's it's it's not it's not as cute as we think. Jen, I do it when I leave my house. Like I do a little book and a scamper. But unfortunately, I'm gonna burst a lot of bubbles here. It is not normal behaviour. It is not, it happens a lot, it's common. It's common because we've restricted their movement and they're just like, Thank God I'm out. But what it actually is, is it's rebound behaviour. It's it's it's anxiety and stress from lack of movement and lack of socialization, and that can happen. People might you know, there's gonna be people listening to this that say, Oh, yeah, my horse does that every mor every morning, that's just them, that's what they do. But that means that okay, again, it it might be common, but it's not normal. It means that it means that horse is actually finding every single night difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And if there is a so I was gonna say there can be a factor of learned behaviour, but that doesn't that doesn't reduce the the importance that it's not actually normal. And and the thing is, I'd say, like, you know, go back to my you know, the cute bit. Yes, we love to watch it. I mean I I I have so many videos of Ruben and Diggle doing it. So of course, like, you know, the roll, the squeal, the ninja kicks, you're like, look at them, they're having so much fun, it's so cute, you know. And literally sent you a video of Ruben two days ago doing it in the sand of it. Yeah, yeah, it happens. Most of my social media is blossomed being a little bog monster. Like I and like and yeah, because and and I don't want to to to make people feel bad for being like, but they're so cute when they do it because we do the same thing. Oh, I do. I know I just had that rant, but I do it as well. We can't so hard not to. And this is it, like because ultimately we're and you're probably listening to this podcast because you love horses and you love watching them move, and it's still a behaviour that our horses performing, and it's lovely to watch because we love watching our horses. That's you know, it's totally normal. Um, and yeah, it's still a rebound behavior. So, what we mean by rebound is they need to perform that behaviour to reach their homeostasis, so they need to get that equilibrium and stabilize again. So it's still an important behaviour for them to perform in that moment in time, but it's not a normal behavior that they would do otherwise. Like and am I explaining that right, Jen? Yeah, if they had everything they needed and they were in their if they had all their needs met, it's not a behaviour you'd actually see. So if I think about um, like I say Dougle who lives out 24-7, you don't ever, you don't see the horses doing this. The only time you'll see anything similar is if um they've gone from a field of no grass into a new field because their needs haven't been met because they've been hungry and not been able to facilitate that foraging, or you might see aspects of it in play. And it's funny because we during the summer um I went to to visit Jen and we went out to Dougle, and we were well, we were gonna go out and see him, and then there was hijinks absolute hijinks. Those two, and we were just watching because again, loving watching horse behaviour. Do you know what was really interesting about that? There were two young geldings. Yeah, it's geldings field, yeah. Yeah, and they were two very young horses, so so play was still really important, and all the older horses were lying down, staying far away from the two high two that were up to shenanigans. Yeah. But do you know what was really interesting about watching that? And you didn't see the same behavioural pattern as you do for rebound behaviour. There was lots of rearing and kicking out and chasing each other, yeah. And and kind of biting and grooming, and you know, that kind of aloe grooming type thing, and then the woo, and then all the rest of it. They weren't making any squealing noises. Nope. They weren't they weren't booking, you know, the same way, and there wasn't that kind of you know, I think everybody's sort of familiar with it. The horses will go out, they'll get down for a roll, they'll get up, you'll get a squeal, you'll get a book, and then you'll get the zoomies, right? That's your kind of union. And they're just they're just kind of like running randomly into random directions. Yes, whereas whereas these two were engaged with each other, yeah. And they were crashed into do good at one point as well. Yeah, stood there. Stay away from us, and they and they were trying to engage the other horses in play. Yeah, you know, it was a very different pattern of behavior. So it's not the horses don't play, it's just that that rebound behavior isn't play. Yeah, and it's not that we and we shouldn't prevent our horses from doing it either, because the fact that it's happening means that they need to do it, you know. It's that kind of weird in-between. Yeah, that was the next thing I was gonna say. Is like if if you're if you're in turnout, you're you're in the process of turning the horses out, please don't panic and then go, oh, I need to bring them in, they're gonna be, they're gonna do something stupid, they're gonna hurt themselves. It's actually going to get worse if you stop that from happening and bring them back in, it will actually increase the rebound behaviour, make them even more pent up and frustrated. Um, like let them do it. Like genuinely, like it is really important. Like, and to you know, if if you're afraid of you know injuries and stuff, I totally understand that. That's you know, because they're precious angels and we don't want them to get hurt. But I'll tell you, I my horse went down for surgery in September and was on box rest for a long time. Her needs were not being met. Garage Friends Freedom, not being met. Yeah, you know, she'd had surgery, she was on box rest, we were limited movement, you know, all of those boxes of like her needs not being met were checked. So the first time she went out, I was like, Oh, here we go. You know, we're going to get the rebound behavior. And you know, I was going, please, for the love of God, we had surgery, we've done all the box rest, please do not hurt her yourself, you know. And we got the squeal and we got the book and we got the zoomies, and she galloped across the field and went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, and all of that happened, and she was absolutely fine. Yeah, and she, you know, had had a ligament surgery done. So it you know, I and then obviously that's me, you know, my own horse in that situation. Like, you know, obviously, not a vet of please do we have to caveat that? Please be sensible, guys. Yeah, yeah. I was I was gonna say, like, you know, horses can kick themselves. I get it. Brushing injuries do happen, and so if you have been in a situation where it's Sometimes you can't turn your horses out, I get that. And like I say, my horse is on liveryard. And sometimes it's actually, you know, if if the weather's been that severe, you can't go into the arenas because they're completely frozen, and we can't get to the field because there's too much snow or ice and it's not safe. I get it, like it does happen. We're not trying to demonize livery yards or anyone like that. No. So if you know that your horse has been in for an extended period of time, there's a couple options you can do. Um there's a really nice paper that I shared in a webinar about the effect of having horses on a small non-grass paddock with just hay, just being left for 15 minutes to their own devices, just 15 minutes, um, was enough to bring down their heart rate and their cholesterol and that lasted up to an hour. So if you are worried about your horse going mad in the field and like pooling something so they'll gallop or they'll trash the field, can you put them into some other kind of holding paddock? It doesn't even have to be that big, put a hay net or whatever for 15 minutes while you do something else before you turn them out. Is that an option? Question mark. Or if you know that your horse has been kept in, put the boots on. You know, put your brushing boots on, put your overreach boots on. If it's gonna if it if it if it means that you're gonna feel happier about your horse doing that, and if your horse is the one who might give himself a knock, you know, I wouldn't I I don't I wouldn't normally put brushing boots or anything on a horse because you know there's other risks of the thing. If it's peace of mind, because less than two and they have that rebound, yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, in that situation as well, like you know, if you've if you've got like we we often get worried about our horses, you know, performing that rebound behaviour and being with other horses because we're like, oh, will that increase the likelihood of them getting injured? Because if they book or if they kick the do, whatever. Actually, it's the opposite you know, when it's the opposite. Yeah, I've actually seen worse injuries when a horse has had rebound behavior and they've gone out into a field where they cannot even just see other horses, and that's when an injury has happened because they're experien they they I say forage friends and freedom, they've been missing some of that. They see another horse or they see something else, or they hear or smell another horse, and they can't outside of their visual horizons, and that's when they try and jump the fence. Yeah, that is when they try and go, I need to get to that other horse. Or they go inside out, and the amount of times I've heard people go, but I just don't get it. They're in a field on their own. How do they do this to themselves? You know, I actually in over oh, I'm gonna have to think now, how long have I been over 57? Oh god, almost 20 years in horses. So just for the interest of the tape, Genesis 67. You can't see it. You actually just don't I honestly do not come across horses giving each other life-ending injuries. Well, there was that paper I think I shared with you last year, it was actually really terrifying the statistics. It was like it was something like 80% of kicks that horses receive from other horses that have metal shoes on will result in a fracture. And it's 0% if they've got no shoes on. I was like, that's terrifying. Like, that is terrifying, you know. I don't get into the the the barefoot thing, but what that tells me is that the human intervention, the metal shoe, like, and I usually sort of say, like, you know, there's the weapons. Um, I know it's me being facetious, but like that means that like horses without shoes, so in a in a natural or feral environment, that would kick or strike out, or you know, tell each other to leave me alone, they're they're not gonna break their bones, you know. Um I mean we're quite we're slightly terrifying people. We're trying to no, we're telling we're terrifying people now about turning the horses out in her. What are you saying? The other one I wanted to say, and I don't know if you've come across this because we're talking about turnout, is is rolling. Um so this is one that like I um I get quite a good bit. Um I think most people are used to blossom uh great horse and I put her out without a rug on because she likes the piglet, you know, and I've had people say to me that oh your horse gives me anxiety, like watching her roll. Yeah, oh yeah. I've had people I've had people be like, I can't, I can't watch it, you know. Oh she's so mucky, oh no, I can't, I can't, I can't. Oh, from the cleanliness mud, okay. Yeah, like people but like people will actually be like, and I've seen people prevent their horses from going for a roll because they don't want them to go down and roll, you know. And okay, yeah, and and and and and and like again, that's not trying to kind of shame people, it's just like it's a normal behavior. Yeah, you know, it's normal, it's really, really important part of like self-maintenance for a horse to go for a roll. Um, and sometimes they say we can put rugs on as well-meaning as we want to because we want to keep them clean and we want to be able to ride later and all the rest of it, but it actually can prevent a horse from performing their natural behaviour the way they want to. Now, I rug my horse, I'm not saying don't rug your horse, but they're when like if it's a sandy arena or something, you know love sand, you don't have yeah, love sand because it's really scratchy, it gives them something really that they can get down on their back and really give it a good scratch. So if you can take the rug off and let them maintain that, like you know, give them that opportunity to maintain that behaviour. You don't have to fall, like I live in the bog, so it's proper like boggy, boggy, boggy mud. I mean, my horse will go down grey and come back up Palomino. Um, I mean, as I most of my friends know at this point, they're just like, oh look, blossoms returned to her natural stuff. I think you know, being very kind there, comes back palomino. She comes back bae. It's oh bad. She will completely it's when she gets it across her face. Yeah, that's the most amazing thing. But for me, my heart sings because when you do that and she's no rug on, she really gets down, and she's right in there in her back. You just get this big grunt, like it says, uh no, I'm not gonna try it on the audio. But it's a normal maintenance behaviour, and as I say, like I I have like again, we talk about unwanted, it may be unwanted for you because you're like, Oh, I've got to go and groom and I've got to wash and I've got to do all the rest of it, or I want to go ride, so it's interfering with like the things that I want to do, or I'm going to a competition, or I don't have time to sort of clean them off and get them dry and put a rug on and all the rest of that sort of stuff, but it's a really normal natural behaviour for your horse to perform. Um, and if we can give them the opportunity to do that, again, it really does help with that rebound behaviour we were talking about, um, to do that sort of self-grooming. Definitely, and don't just assume that your horse will roll in the stable, no, or if that the roll is actually good enough for them, um, because there's multiple factors there. It's depth of bed, if the bed isn't deep enough, then it's not going to give them that kind of steam feeling. It's not even the case of the size of the stable, it's whether or not the horse feels safe. I mean, you can have a horse in you know, a falling box or a double-sized falling box, but if your horse feels compromised, just knowing that there w there's walls around it can be enough to limit um them wanting to lie down and roll. Um, also, it's the amount of rugs that we have though on them. Um you could you could have your horse in a massive stable and it does get down and roll, but it might not be a satisfying roll because it's got even one rug is enough to to dull the senses. Um, and I'm gonna kick myself because it's my own research now that I can't remember the numbers. But I in my thesis that I presented at the ISIS conference this was that this year? Last year. No, no, last year. God, that's been a year. Yeah, 2021. No, 2022. 22, yeah. Oh my god, now I did it. Yeah, sorry. Um so I won't go into all of it, but part of it was looking at um behaviours overnight, and I had older horses and younger horses. And the interesting thing was my younger horses were significantly smaller um in size. The older horses were all like 16 plus, my younger horses were all about you know under 15 hands, and they were there were falling boxes, they were big stables, but the older horses, one in particular, she didn't lie down for two nights solid, and we did have the daytime data as well. She didn't lie down in the field, so at 48 hours did not lie down. I I saw the same thing in my research as well with one horse. Yeah. Hyper hyper-vigilance, which again we talked about a normal behavior, um not lying down, that hyper-vigilance behaviour is a normal behavior, but also an indication that all is not well. Which is perfect. Let's lead on to then let's talk about um spooking but also freezing. Because I feel like they can they they're they're both they're both um flights. In that kind of survival in that ethogram. Yeah, fight and flight, although they're different, they are both survival behaviors, they're but they're both behaviors that say I am not safe. So as a survival behavior, they are normal survival techniques. Are they wanted by us? No, they they definitely fall under the category of unwanted behaviors. Yeah, they are normal as in they keep horses safe, or or they try to keep horses safe. Yeah, prey animal. They're a prey animal, so being vigilant is a really important species specific behaviour. Yeah, but it's a prey animal, they need to be vigilant, yeah, or they get eaten. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, and it very, very, very, very quickly falls into abnormal behaviour when it becomes it becomes very, very common, repetitive, daily occurrence, almost a permanent occurrence. There's flighty horses, which is just that's that's a horse who's in a constant state of anxiety. Yeah, so the the here's worth kind of talking about a term we call homeostasis. Yeah. Um and there's sort of two types, and there's you know your physical homeostase, and they they kind of they cross over to each other. So we would think about ourselves in this situation. So um we're recording, we're getting up to lunchtime, we've had breakfast, uh, to maintain our own homeostasis. We're gonna start getting hungry at some point, and that's our body going, I need you to eat, I need you to drink when you feel thirsty. It's your body regulating your physiological, so it's nice, it's an equilibrium. Stay nice and static, eat and drink, sleep, all those important things. And then you have emotional homeostasis as well. So, like things again, we'll talk about ourselves, like we need friends. I think we all experienced that during the COVID years, like being isolated, and how stressful that was, and how challenging that was, and how many mental health issues that we developed as a society because we weren't able to maintain our emotional homeostasis. So when you get to a point where you know you have high anxiety levels, you're constantly feeling anxious, it can tip into you know adrenal glands, you can have other physical and uh uh problems when you're constantly in a high alert status, and it's the same for our horses. So there's the physiological homeostasis, so that's maintaining their needs. Have they got fresh water, have they got food, have they got shelter, have they got other horses and stuff, and then there's the mental one as well. So if they're in a constant high stress environment, it it it becomes an abnormal behaviour. They shouldn't be always vigilant, yeah, they shouldn't always be up there, and then it can develop into other abnormal behaviours. So it's a case of trying to maintain that balancing act of not being in that state of distress effectively all the time. Yeah, because it's so normal, say, for every single horse in the world to perform spooking, freeze, flight, but only for short periods of time that fit the environment. Yeah. So for example, if you were out for a hack and um you know the bird scarers, but the the guns. Oh, the bangers, the guns, like a cannon. Yeah. Oh my god, yeah. So scared the crap out of me. Yeah, exactly. Pretty normal that you're hacking out, loose rain, everything's lovely, and you hear the bang, and the horse spooks and goes, I need maybe your horse jumps, maybe they snort, toss their heads, have to spook, whatever, like whatever. You might have a freeze horse that goes, What's that? Right, normal, totally normal, totally fine. So, in a normal situation, what I then expect is that to last for X amount of time, not too long, maybe a few minutes, there's no more noises, you carry on in your hack, and you get the big sigh, big from the horse, and you take a big sigh as well, and then you carry on on your day. Lovely. Where it's abnormal is maybe your horse was already tense, already a bit joggy, already head up from leaving the yard, and then you get the bang, and then they're elevated and they're gone. They might not be gone physically, you might you might be on a horse that bolts and you're both gone. Um, or it could be that mentally they don't come back down and they're head tossing, sweating, eye rolling, chomping at the bit, pulling at the bit, tail swishing, all of it, and it lasts and it doesn't go back down. That's a horse who has gone over threshold, but it also tells us that their level of stress was already quite near their threshold, already, their baseline was already too high. So this is where it tips into abnormal and just uh just how how how can you just kind of like use these this bit of information to your advantage? When you're selecting a horse trainer or a coach or somebody to help you, and they've got lots of videos on social media, maybe Facebook, Instagram, whatever, just take a minute to s just to watch how much of that time when that horse is spending that time with that trainer, does that horse look like it's in a state of fight or flight or freeze? Because if we pull this back to what is that behaviour doing for the horse or where does it come from? It comes from safety. So if that horse is spending the majority of the time with that horse trainer in a state of flight or freeze, that's telling us for that entire time, that interaction, the horse didn't feel safe. Yeah. Whereas I would much rather I would much rather employ the support of a trainer where the horse looks like it feels very safe with that person. 100%, 100%, Jen. Like and it and and it's it's what that trainer does afterwards because if you're working with a horse who you know is in this state of like high arousal, is scared, the head is up, we can see the whites, the eyes, they're going, Oh, what's happening? Lots of snorting. Exactly. What does the trainer or the coach do next? That's really, really important. Um, you know, how I would approach it is go, okay, well, I'm just gonna get a bit quiet, just gonna wait a second, I'm gonna watch the behavior, see if they can come back down because I need to assess, as Jen says, like, are they able to? And if they are not able to, then we need to reassess it. And what's really really important, and I know we covered a maybe we covered a little bit this in learning theory, is a horse cannot learn in that situation. No, we that is really, really important. We know that we can in that situation. No, the brain doesn't work like that. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that because now is not the time to learn. Now is the time to stay alive, as far as you know, uh the brain and the physiology is is required. So trying to ask our horses, and this is something that you can uh apply and implement as well, even when you're like riding, if you're schooling in the arena, and you know, we get a bird fly out, or something else happens, and the head goes up, and you've you've had a nice collected work and you're working really well, but the head comes up and pops up in the air, and they're going, Whoa, what's happening? If you then try and get the horse back, they're not going to learn to cut in that situation. Your schooling isn't going to work as well. So, you know, just taking a breather, taking a step, wait until they come back down, do something that's an easier exercise for them. You know, we'll call like the sandwich, ask a hard question, but then ask an easier question, bringing them back down again. That can really, really actually promote your learning. You know, that can really really support your your work with your horse. Yeah, because I'm pretty sure if any of us think about times where we've had an argument with our significant others, our friends, our parents, and tempers are getting raised and we're shouting, and it's all very ra, and then you meet that with more anger, and conflict meets conflict. Guaranteed, somebody in that argument is feeling insecure or hurt or scared or whatever, and that's that's what they're communicating, not in the best way, but their anger or their emotion is coming across as aggressive, but actually they're very hurt and scared. Then if you come across and you just shout at them for that expression, not only will that person feel not listened to or hurt or scared, you're just all we're doing is raising the stress levels and we're making that person feel more isolated. And we're getting into human counseling now, but all you're doing is you're you're you're isolating that person even more, yeah. To oh my god, actually, yeah, the world is awful, and here's the person who I'm supposed to look to for comfort is making me feel even worse. Yeah, so just take that and apply that to our horses, and your horse is freaking out, and maybe they're showing us aggressive behavior, maybe they're showing us spooking behavior or freeze. That horse feels very scared on their own, and then if we just come at them with violent methods or methods that cause startled responses, we are doing nothing more than trigger sack them more. We are doing nothing for the relationship or the partnership. No, there's no bonding going on there. And we talk when we talk about horses, we talk about having that partnership, having that harmony. That's that's the we always talk about that in in horse sports, or you know, and and connecting with our horses. So we're yeah, we're we're we're we're creating a more detrimental environment. You know, we're not creating an environment for learning, and we talk about as they that emotional homeostasis as well, but we're not helping them achieve that, like you know, there's there's being stressed and then there's being in de-stress, like and and they are you know two different things. Like we can we can feel sort of that stress or that what we call like the higher arousal rate because it's still hormones in the body, like you know, it's still that is that's that's how it's described from a scientific perspective, um, and we can feel a little bit more stressed and sort of like excited and jazzed and oh okay, right, ready to go, da da da da da, you know, but then there's de-stress, and then that's you know slightly different where it's it's not a good feeling. So if you think like um so we can have good stress and bad stress, yes, yeah, exactly. And like so there's this times when like um now I don't do any more because you know I'm I'm too old. Back when I used to do like the the cross country ride outs, you know, you'd be on that kind of adrenaline high, you know, but you felt good, right? And you usually felt like the horse underneath you, you both felt good, you're out of the way. Oh, they're doing the endorphin rush. Exactly, and you both felt like you were in the you know, it's like I didn't feel like you know my horse was stressed, you know, distressed by the situation, and I wasn't, and we were out for the day, and it felt good, but then there were days where you'd have, you know, I say that cup was a little bit full, and I didn't feel safe or happy in that situation, and I know my horse didn't either, you know. Believe it or not, there's similar hormonal cocktails, yeah, but the behavior is different for both me and the horse. I was tenser, yeah. I was going, oh god, are we going to stop? You know, we need to slow down here, the ground conditions aren't as good, you know. And my horse is going, whoa, no, I'm in flight mode. This is different than me concentrating, and it's and it makes it more challenging. So I don't know where I was going with that. No, I think normal behaviour, but unwanted behaviour. I think I think it's an important just point to bring into it is that um and I and I do I do like watching videos of like Charlotte and and Carl because very often their horses, especially when they show like home training videos, you can see the horse is working hard, and there's behavioural indicators of stress and tension in the in this case that the horse is doing a big physical effort. Yeah, yeah, but then they can just drop the reins and chill, and the horse goes, Oh, okay, okay. And what you're not seeing is you know, the horse jumping away from the leg or tossing the head or looking particularly stressed, and we do know that they turn their horses out, and there's lovely videos of I think it's Charlotte and Vallegro going for a gallop up the side of the field and a bit of cross training and stuff. So I do I do genuinely love watching their videos, but to me, those are examples of healthy stress, yeah, you know, because like I say, yeah, there's one in particular. Was shared ages ago, but it was like a home video. I think it was after the Olympics when Charlotte had won a V Allegro. And they were doing like a a little of like a documentary at home and Carl's coaching Charlotte, and they're doing like a coming down the centre line, and I think they go into passage, PF, and halt or or transitions. I can't quite remember exactly, but it was it was on the centre line, and you can see Vallegro's working very, very, very hard. And then shut and then Carl shouts, and then they just stop and they take a break, and Charlotte just drops the reins, and then Vallegro's just gone from a high physical effort to just chilling while they have a conversation, then she picks them up again and they go again. And I'm like, that's that's it. A horse who is in de stress wouldn't be able to flick on and off like that. No, no, and like I say, like because physical effort is like you know, is that there's a physiological, you know, as you say, like I'm yeah, 100% Jen. Like, and it's a it's a lovely example of those two together. What is a normal behavior and a horse with good homeostasis and it is a monetary, and when it tips into abnormal, yeah. So it's a good test for you at home if you're listening, if you're not sure which it is. Jen just gave a perfect example. If you're riding your horse or you're out for a hack and you've had that spook, you've had something, and you don't feel confident enough to be able to go, oh, can I drop the reins? Then maybe just think, okay, is my horse still up there? Yeah. You know, is my do I need to change something here? Yeah, you know. So that leads us nicely on to I think if we can just cover every aspect for if we're cherry-picking little bits here and there is we've gone from the stable, we've done some turnout, you know, now we're starting to talk about you know riding. So there's certain behaviours that we see when horses are exercised or ridden, um, which are definitely abnormal. Um, so I shared one a few months back, if people saw it, of the extravagant rear from Ruben under Saddle. And if we are familiar with the ridden horse pain ethogram, there's a whole list of behaviours that have actually been very carefully studied and categorized as to not just the occurrence but the length of time they last for. Um, for example, like ears being backwards for more, and I'm gonna kick myself, it's either more than three seconds or five seconds. I'll have to check that. Three to three to five seconds and different directions as well. Yeah, so yeah, what we call um, you know, effectively like there's lots of differentials, there's lots of different reasons why, like courses before and behaviors, but what we tend to do is look at them in groups as well. So it's not just not just one in isolation, yeah. You know, a behavior's fluid and it's moving all the time. So we look at them in collection um together, yeah. So like certain behaviours together and certain behaviors that are sustained for a certain amount of time or repeating patterns of behavior. So, like, as you said, it's like you know, if you're riding in the arena and plastic bag, bird goes by, you know, or uh you know, not as a it's happened to me before where like you know you're on a a yard and like cyclist goes by down the road and it's like whoa, what's happening? Yeah, um, you know, that's a that's a one-off, and you know, that might happen, and then you can go back to your work again. So we're not talking about those kind of one-off occurrences, it's the repetition, yeah, and it's the sustained behaviour. Yeah, I I I can definitely talk from a point so many clients and people on socials will be familiar with Ruben, and so obviously with the kissing spine years ago, and as he's grown older, as with most horses who've had some sort of bony issue at some point in their life, you know, they are compromised for life, and it it does only progress as they go on, even with our best efforts. But anyway, so with Ruben, um there is repeated, there are repeated abnormal behaviours that he does that I know that he is particularly suffering and struggling with his back and his SI and his hocks, and they typically show with struggling to pick up the right or correct canter lead, switching canter lead in the canter, and sometimes you see him like skip with his back legs. And by the way, he's doing this under saddle and loose when I'm free of the schooling him as well or lunging. So switching diagonal, a very poignant one that he does is he'll buck but he'll kick out with one leg instead of a double kick out, so the single leg kick, um, tail pulling to the side, uh as in movement, the head raising and falling. So, very often you see horses attempt to stretch forwards, but then they'll pop back up and going hollow, um, and diving in the canter. So maybe the canter transition itself is very exuberant, or they're very downhill rushing, motorbiking. So those are his, that's his group, that's his combination. Now he doesn't have to show me all five, just two or three of those together, and he will repeat them. So we come back to trot, we balance, we do some stretching, we bring the arousal levels down, we're cool, we're fine, we ask for the canter, they come back. This is when I know that he is showing me behaviour in his body is communicating de-stress, he's he's not coping. And I say, and there's lots of different when it's good to get a behaviorist in and have a look if you're concerned about any of those behaviours. Like I say, tail swishing, booking, rearing, bolting. I think we know all the kind of the standard ones. If there's something there that's not a normal behaviour and it keeps happening, then it's worth getting someone in to investigate that because there could be lots of different reasons. Say I think we're familiar with poor saddle fish, and sometimes it can just be reinforcement and training, sometimes just sort of honing that up a little bit, but other medical issues as well. If there's underlying medical issues, talking about Rubin there, the kissing spines, say lameness, gastric ulcers, other kind of fear and anxiety behaviors, like we've talked about that at length. Like there are so many things, and our horses are trying to communicate that with us all the all the time. So when we talk about it being a normal behavior, but they're normal behaviors because they're normal for the horse to perform, but they indicate that something underlying is happening. And interestingly enough, when we talk about it for we we've said, is it a normal behavior or abnormal? And is it is it an unwanted behavior? So a lot of the time horses are performing abnormal behaviors where they're trying to communicate, but we actually just normalize them. So tail swishing is one that happens a lot. Um, and we just and I mean part of it is it's behind us, so sometimes we might not see it, you know, it's fair enough. And you know, sometimes we can we can hear it, and unless you have it on on camera, like you probably won't know. But we sort of go, Oh, they're just swishing their tail, you know, and it and we normalize it and we're like, oh it hasn't affected me, and it's it's fine, like I'll just keep riding, but it's actually an abnormal behavior, so it's it's conflict behavior, so there's something happening there that the horse is trying to communicate. Yeah, so if you do a round of jumps or you go and do a dressage test and the tail is swishing the entire time, yeah, that is something you know that that's something that needs to be investigated. Yeah, so even if you can still do your whole dressage test, or you can do your whole round of jumps and you can you can ride and you're happy, and it's not an unwanted behaviour for you, but it's an abnormal behavior for the horse. Yeah. And I I guess this is where when this study came out, they turned the made the terminology conflict behaviour because it is this difficult conversation of it's normal but abnormal. So in those those situations, yeah, we would use the term conflict behaviour because the horse is in conflict, it's it's trying to do as it's been asked, but it's not feeling great about it. There's either physical conflict or emotional conflict, or both. Yeah, like that and this is it, and um like it's it's it's funny, is like for the the great thing about a tail swish is that in my experience it precedes all the other ones almost, you know. So for example, if you get a tail swish and you have a couple of them and you just got you ignore it and you keep going, you are increasing the likelihood of a rear or a book. Yeah. Because it has to get louder, right? So that's the horse's real subtle sign of going, I'm in conflict, something's going on. And if we keep going, then it starts getting a little bit more dangerous. But if we go, oh, why do we get a tail switch? And we start thinking about, like, you know, think about it as communication. It's not, you know, we hear the word conflict, you know, it has sort of negative connotations, but if we think about it more of like the horse communicating with us because they have no other way of doing it, and the tail they're able to communicate that with us. So we go, okay, something wasn't right there. You know, and I've I've done it myself with my my own horse blossom. And I usually, if I've seen it and I get a tail swish, I'm usually looking at what I'm doing, and I'm like, Oh, okay, Barbara, you left your leg on too long there. And she was like, Do you want me to go forward or sideways? And I'm not being clear in my communication, and she's going, I don't know what you want. I'm in conflict with what I've learned and what you're asking me to do. Yeah, I thought I'd perform the right behavior, but apparently, you know, I didn't, and I'm a bit confused, and the tail goes, yeah, you know, so it's about and that for me is a human learning moment, so it actually can help us with our riding. So I was going, Oh, okay, I mustn't have released that pressure properly. I didn't 100% acquired the right place. So she's actually teaching me in that situation. And that's the thing is they can very much often be used as barometers on our of our training. So, what I'm about to say next is gonna resonate with a lot of my clients. Um, some's gonna say, I'm not singling any single one out because this actually happens with a lot of people because I get involved in a lot of rehabbing kind of cases. So, very often we'll be working a horse, whether it's in the ground or ridden, and like I say, tail swishing is a great one because we could be doing a certain exercise or a transition, and we get a big tail swish, and we notice that, and we go, Oh, okay, they're not ready for that yet, they found that really hard, so we pull back, or we've been working away and doing maybe more pole work or more lateral work, and you know, two sessions before we've had no tail swishing, and then the tail swishing comes back in, so we go, Okay, either the exercise is too hard or they're having a bad day. Talk about it, carry on, we'll reduce the effort a little bit, build them up. If the tail swishing continues or gets worse, or other conflict behaviours come in, that's feedback. We know we're going too hard, too fast, horses struggling, let's review, or if the conflict behaviours start to lessen, we know we've pulled back to a comfortable level and we can slowly rebuild. And it's a really nice visual one that people can use. But I'm also I'm always saying to them, like, conflict behaviors don't have to be the end of the world, they are communication, but we have to listen to them. We we we can't just go, oh, it's just a tail swish, it's fine, because like you say, it precedes everything else. So this this this is it, and I think we're nearly getting into you know, and I I it we definitely do it as another podcast, like just on conflict behaviours and calming signals. Yeah, there's a huge amount of research done now with dogs, and I was actually giving out to Jen about this like a couple of weeks ago where I was just like it's like why don't we have one for horses? Like in the same detail and level of research, because we have so much of it for dogs, and it's called the the facts, so F A C F A C S. And like you know, there are a number of behaviours that build up to you know something that's more aggressive, and I do think it's worth getting into in another podcast because there's so many smaller little what we call calming signals, you know, that precede everything building up um and give us an indication of how the horse is feeling, how the dog is feeling, and you know, it's not a bad thing, it's it's a way of communicating, and it gives us, I should say, a barometer like of where we are and how we can adjust our training, you know, um, and that's the way I like to look at it. Talking about unwanted uh behaviours, unnormal behaviours. There's uh the lovely David taking the Izzy out for a walk, and uh she is barking like crazy because it's a normal behavior because they're going for their lunchtime walk, and uh she's barking the whole house down because she wants to go for a walk, but she only does it when David goes for a walk, and it drives him batty. She never barks the house down when I take her for a walk, and I don't mind. So explain that one. Um, because it is a normal behaviour for a dog to bark going for a walk and get excited, but uh an unwanted behaviour as far as David is concerned. Uh yeah, so questions? Questions, yeah, questions. Um, what questions do we have? So we've had a few questions in about separation anxiety, and we were talking about this about kind of just bringing it into its own podcast, really, because it is huge. It is huge, um, but I think it's worth kind of answering here in one of them, where just to kind of touch on it when we talk about normal and abnormal behaviours and unwanted behaviours, separation anxiety, although we term it like that, is actually a really normal behavior. Oh, completely normal. Like completely normal and and and un and as saying like unwanted, and it's a it's it can be a really challenging one and for both dogs and horses, because again, when we talked at the very start of this, when we're asking those animals to come into a human existence, like you know, they're unwanted because this is the life that we live, and we live them with these animals. So we don't want our horses and our dogs to suffer from separation anxiety because again, we talked about that emotional homeostasis, being in that high level of anxiety all the time is detrimental to the physical and mental health of our animals. Yeah, but I I think also if we're if we if we get a bit human honest about it, it's just massively inconvenient for us. Yeah, it is, and and it's just be frank about it. I mean, a a lot of these behaviours that we call unwanted, if we just actually were honest about it, it's not that they're unwanted, they're inconvenient. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If if we're honest as people, they are. It makes our lives more difficult, which is why we want to get rid of them. And like, and it's funny because some horses that display big behaviors when it comes to separation anxiety may actually be coping better than horses that don't. And this and this is this is it. So you can have I've seen it where you have two horses in the paddock, one gets taken out, they can still see other horses. The horse that gets left behind goes up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down and is calling the whole time and getting into a big stress mess. And we see that and we go, Oh god, we better bring the other horse in, you know, like they're not coping too well. And the horse that's been brought in is in a stable on its own with no other horses, and it's very quiet and not eating their hay. And we think that that horse is fine. Whereas in reality, that horse that's quietly in the stable on its own may not actually be coping as well as we think, because it is a normal behavior for horses to be with other horses. Yeah. Now, unlike this, it's a really important and I think kind of a hard one for us as horse owners to hear, dogs will quite happily spend their whole lives, some dogs, and not be friends with other dogs and be friends with us, and they are very happy, and they can have a happy long life just loving humans and not hanging out with other dogs. Horses would prefer the company of other horses, and that's really hard to hear. Uh you know, because we love our perfect angels and we want them to spend time with us because we love spending time with them, but as horses, they really need the company of other horses, yeah. And that is a really normal behaviour. Yeah, we will never be enough, we will never be enough. And that's another thing. Okay, I and this is yeah, yeah. That when if if I go to the field and Ruben comes to the gate or Dougle comes to the gate, I'm you know, it's not a black beauty moment, it's a case of why do you want me? You should want to be in the field, you should want the other horses. Why are you coming to me? You know, it it it's not actually as much as we want those moments because it makes us feel good, I would always want my horse not to be but difficult to catch, god no, but no, no, I was gonna say we'll caveat that with if you've if you've trained them, yeah, if you've trained them to be a different story, yeah. If you've trained them call or you target training to Hector, whatever, let's caveat that. Please accept that's not what I'm saying. What I'm seeing is the horse that's in the field looking for people, or the ones at the gate looking to get brought out. That makes me worry. That's that's not okay. I will give you two perfect examples. So during the summer, you know, I'd say, like, now I say I have my horse blossom, you know, trained to come to me, like you know, the gate, like, and she will. So during the summer, she will be out with other friends, forage friends in freedom, they're out 24-7, and we just boot them all out during the summer, and she'll still come to me and be like, Oh, hey, how's it going? Bit carrot grand, you know, and we can go do our bits and pieces. But during the winter, when I have her turned out, and if the other horses have come in and down the yard later to go and get her, and she's on her own, she will turbo across the field to me. And there is the problem, right? That's when I get worried. Yeah, exactly. That's when that's when I'm like, I'm sorry, chicken, because all the other horses have gone, you know, she's on her own, and we talk about the hyper-vigilance. She wants to come in because her friends are all on the stable and she can see them and she's close to them, you know, and then she wants to come in then. So it's it's a different, you know, so training and you know, and looking at those behaviors is different. In both situations, yes, she's coming to me. One of them is very kind of the other one, and as much not we talked about, you know, loving watching that rebound behavior with our horses because we're they're rolling and it looks like they're playing, and we love watching them. I still love Turbo Blossom, you know. There's times when I'm like, Oh, that's cute, but intellectually I understand that it's because she wants to come in because she's on her own. So, you know, there are times when people go, like, oh, you know, my horse doesn't want to come in. If they're on their own, they'd rather be with other horses. Um, yeah, you know, that is you know, so it's tricky, tricky, very tricky. And I feel separation anxiety is one we are gonna have to dedicate a whole episode to. So yes, to the person who sent that in, we're not ignoring you, it's a big topic. We've touched on it today, and we want to do it justice. We want to do justice, so we are we're gonna do a full episode on that one, yeah. So the the other one is you know, my horse it kicks and bites other horses um when they're turned out into the field. You know, how can I stop this? Okay, so that definitely falls into the abnormal like that's not normal behaviour for for horses to repeatedly attacking another horse. Um I would be calling the vet, honestly. Yeah. Because there could be something underlying, so this happens a lot uh with aggressive cases for for dogs as well. Um, you know, when they they snap or they bite, there could be an underlying pain or something physically happening with that horse. And what happens is because of associative learning, if they're in the field with another horse and they move or they try and move out of the way to get to the water trough or they're getting turned out, and something hurts, and they see the other horse beside them, they can inadvertently associate that pain with the other horse. And what's happening is that aggressive response that you see is because they think it's happening because of them. Yeah, you know. Um, if you've ever, and I do it all the time with kitchen cupboards, you know, you're bending down, the cupboard is open, you lift up your head and you bang the cupboards. Oh, yeah. How many people slam the kitchen cupboard door? Like, how dare you do that to me? That is so true. I'm just like, I've never thought of that. That's so funny. That's associative learning. I mean, I I hit my own head. It wasn't that the cupboard is an ananimous object, but that part of associative learning happens, and we see that a lot of the time, you know, with with dogs, we go to give them a cuddler, we pet them, and they're actually a bit sore in their hip. Say a dog with like hip dysplasia, we give them a most dogs love. rumpy schnuggles as I call them, you know, bump scratches. But you've got to do that with a dog with a hip dysplasia. And then they turn around and snap and they've associated your cuddles with something painful, even though it didn't. And so if there is repeated bouts of aggressive behaviour with horses in a field and and whatever horses are happening, because again some horses don't like each other apparently you know um and it's different to resource guarding where say there's no hay no grass in the field and you put hay in and there's a horse being bullied off the hay that's different you know I say I would say there's loads of different differentials though as a right um well I've got I've got a nice um example on this one and this is a this is a true case study um so had a horse a client's horse who was attacking other horses at the gateway and very defensive and this was very multifactor. So long story short is there was there was health and physical things that have been dealt with um from the vet so tick that box the other thing was there was resource guarding but the interesting thing gourding um I looked the resource guarding wasn't actually in the field it was in the stable so it was a case of I want to get out first because I'm hungry and all the yummy stuff is in the stable so we changed that so then the food and stuff wasn't in the stable so when the horse came in it came into the empty stable as it were um so we'll just hey just not the yummy food and all the yummy yummies so that was part of it we also changed field changed dynamics and so who was in the field who they were sharing with and also changed location so it was a very multifactoral we had a health we had a resource guarding we had a social dynamic and we had natural environmental location of the field now totally different story yeah change in management like yeah yeah just those simple changes to management yeah changes in management so environment first if we can change the management look look at the so if you have a horse that's still kicking and biting at the horses is there enough grass in the field to actually sustain those horses if there is a forage provision like bales of hay is it one stagnant bale that just stands there or is it is there more than one is there ample opportunities for all those horses is there more foraging opportunities than horses and does your horse actually have a friend what are the other horses like um because I often I also see this where you know this very often happens in private homes where you have your lovely big competition horse who's like 16 17 hands whatever and their companion is a pony and one of them will be grumpy because either the pony is completely just molestered by the big horse and doesn't get listened to and scratches are too hard and difficult or the bigger horse gets upset because he never gets his back scratched. He can't play and you got that dynamic that isn't being met there. So I mean in answer to that question I would be get your vet make sure there's nothing physical and get behaviors involved yeah to be able to support yeah because it's a behaviour who's going to be able to answer all those other questions for you and watch the dynamics and that for you so we have another one here when it comes to sort of spooking so um I used to be able to hack my horse out on the road we never had any issues and then there was road signs put down there was obviously road works going on and afterwards even when the road signs were gone my horse just keeps spooking I'm summarising this very quickly okay so basically like there was an area on the road where they used to go hacking out all the time no problems whatsoever then road works happened and even when the road works were gone the horse just keeps spooking in that area and and you know obviously it's it's not a fun experience for everybody involved. Became the demon corner it became the demon corner so I say that this this person is just a little bit like confused because obviously the roadworks are gone. Yeah so it's an unwanted behaviour and it doesn't seem like a normal behavior. Yeah and it feels that the context has changed so the behaviour should be gone. Yeah I can see the logic totally yeah absolutely so ultimately like you know what what is happening there is is a bit of associative learning you know um and learning the environment that's there. So even though the road works are gone then the environment is linked to it. Now really interestingly as well like now obviously I I don't have any more information about this one but if it was say the first time that this horse had seen roadworks that first memory is going to be really solidified including the including the environment so some behavioural modification with with behaviorist or coach can really help in that situation just to help desensitize them to that area um and I know we've talked about it a little bit in this podcast about that sort of hypervigilance you know is it just that area and then is the horse able to relax afterwards or does it continue for the rest of the hack? You know and that that would be really important information as well. Yeah if we're really reflective is the horse always on edge? Do they have the bandwidth to cope with yeah and as you said so we don't know how much experience this horse has had um because for all we know this is actually an area where this has happened before so although the role works have gone today that's not to say that it's not a part of the road where other things have happened so for if we go back months a year however long that horse has been there has there been enough data input of experiences that this area is often associated with worrying things so you've got associative learning there that this particular section of the hack in the past has been quite worrying so now the horse thinks do you know what I'm better off just being on guard here. Yeah yeah because because more often than not or it might not be that more often than not it's just that those scary experiences have been scary enough that it's really long lasting so I get that a lot where I hack out for the most part they're really nice quiet lanes and stuff but there's a couple houses that have particularly barky dogs and dogs that will run hell for leather at the gates and if if the dogs are already there barking then you can kind of ride past and the horses see them for a distance but if the horse is the dog has come out of nowhere and just like up against the gate and it's that big boom bang bark that's really terrifying and I can guarantee you the next day we hack out even if the dogs are in the house Reuben will be on edge because he's remembering because that was scary enough even though the dogs aren't there but it's just solidify. Yeah yeah and the other thing to look for as well is it may have been we talked a little bit about trigger stacking it may not have been the road works themselves this all this that might have been an area of the hack that the horse as Jen says needs to be hyper vigilant. The other thing to look for is is there big visual horizons at this particular area so like big open rolling fields no hedgerows is this a big open space you know where the horse was already like okay I need to be on high alert here or is the tarmac slippy that's something you just made reminded me yeah is it actually it's we as the people have fixated on the roadworks but it could actually be something else that's always there. Yeah and and we've just noticed because the roadworks tipped you over the edge at that one point in time. Yeah um do you have any questions there Jen um no I think we're good. I feel like we've covered a lot and if people have I feel I feel like if people have lasted this long in this episode um yeah we're gonna reward you by by by uh finishing off here. So I've I've really enjoyed this one. It isn't a reward Jen please please don't think it's a I don't know how it works in that situation. It's a D tangent don't go there that is dangerous. Any more questions Jen? No I I think we're we're good there. I think we've covered a lot I think if our listeners have made it this far they they'll be quite happy for us to round it off there because that's been a lot of information. I've really enjoyed it I love talking about these nuances and and the the problem solving part of it. That I think that's one of my favourite things about working with horses and working with behaviour and pulling in other aspects from other other species as well so no I'm I'm good. Any in closing remarks from yourself? No I say I just um I just always find it like you know interesting like it the the human side of things like what is you know what is a normal behaviour and what is an unwanted behaviour and you know the next time you're working with your horse or your dog or your partner um ask yourself like is it a normal behavior that someone or you know what your pet as they or or someone that you live with a genuinely is it a normal behavior or is it just something that is unwanted that you don't want them to perform yeah because I think when we start asking those questions then you know we all have our little foibles I know my darling husband does the things that I'm like I really don't want you to stack the dishwasher that way actually it's the other way around he doesn't want me to stack the dishwasher it's it's a it's a normal behavior for me to fill the dishwasher that way but he doesn't want me to do it that way. So it's it's yeah it's just asking it's challenging ourselves yeah you know because each and every animal including ourselves our horses our dogs are partners they have a definition of self so that self is really really important and before we decide that we don't want them to do it. Absolutely it brings us back to take a step back take a deep breath can we approach with kindness and maybe the direct route isn't the one we take maybe the side route will actually be more beneficial to everyone so love that. Thanks guys thanks guys bye