"How Can I Train My Reindeer for Santa?"

In this festive episode, we share the story of the time we were hired by Santa Claus himself to help with some behavioural modification for one of his reindeer!

This particular reindeer was having feelings about pulling the sleigh  and when you’re part of a global overnight gift-delivery team, that’s kind of a big deal.

With Santa’s permission (he was very generous and fully consented to the case being discussed  he loves education!), we walk you through:

• What the behaviour looked like
• How we assessed the reindeer’s emotional state and motivation
• The training plan we developed
• And how it all turned out on the big night ✨

It’s a light-hearted, cosy, story-style episode full of seasonal cheer, training insight, and a reminder that even magical animals deserve compassion, patience, and good reinforcement schedules.

Grab a hot chocolate, curl up, and enjoy this one  it’s a Christmas treat. 🎅🦌💫

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:00

Are you excited? I'm so excited. Seven more sleeps. Seven, seven more, seven more Christmas. Seven more sleeps. I would say this is about the only holiday that I actually get really excited about. Yeah, it's something that's grown on me over the years. I think since like we got our first house and then we got to do our own decorations and stuff. Yeah. Um that's when it really kind of made it feel like it was fun. Yeah. You know, that kind of when you're like student halls and all the rest of it and you're moving around, makes it really hard for Santa to find you, but when you have your own house and it's you can make it special and stuff. Yeah. I think it's one of those holidays that like it's really sensory, not overload, but like every part of the country gets into it. And it's not just it's not just people saying like happy holidays, Merry Christmas. You've got decorations, you've got lights, there's music, there's actual Christmas music. We don't get Easter music, we don't get um no Halloween music or anything like that. It's just like I love it, and you know, I'm a bit spoilt, biased that Christmas in Scotland, if it snows and you actually have a white Christmas, it's like it doesn't it doesn't happen as often as you think, but when it does happen, it's amazing. No, I was there I I did my undergraduate in Aberdeen, um, so same latitude line as Moscow. Yeah, um, so you can imagine how cold that is, and student digs, and we got snowed in one year, and I stayed there one Christmas and um you know was out in Banaki and stuff with with my friends. We got the car stuck, uh and in snow. There were icicles the size of us, um, I love that which we then broke off and pretended to be unicorns. I love it, uh, and then danced around in the snow. So yeah, uh, there's something I mean it's freezing, but it is, yeah, there's something really like beautiful about it. Yeah, but you can you can proper wrap up and you really feel Christmas Eve, you've got all the layers on, and the hot chocolate just hits differently as well. Maybe this is just like a horse rider thing as well, because like you know, if you you're you're soaking wet and you've been out in the cold and you get home and like the rain is battering or that cold wintery feeling outside, and as you say, you've got the Christmas tree up and the lights are on, yeah, and it's wind and rainy outside, but you've got like wind and winy, um, and you're inside with a cup of tea, and you know how I love my blankets. I'm a blanket girl. Sometimes I double blanket, which is when you have one blanket and then you get another blanket and then you really cocoon yourself. That's that's me. Um, and I do that in people's houses too, is Jen. She does, she really does. She makes herself at home. She'll even rain your drawers in your house to find the blankets and go through all of them. Is this one of your best ones? Yeah, okay. Well, I'll take this one then. Uh-huh. No shame. No shame. Genuinely did it. And Jen's like, I have more blankets if you want, Barbara. And I'm like, that's fine, I've got two, I'm good. No, I like these ones. These are the most uh expensive ones. I can see the wool content on these ones is really high. I'll have these ones nice. I don't want your IKEA ones, I'll want the wool content ones. The extra special one. Like one of them where you were like, this is the dog's blanket, and I'm like, I'll take it as well. But yeah, it's like that cold outside, but then when you're you know, yeah, Christmas tree and lights and you're all snuggled. Oh good. I think it's Swedish or maybe it's Danish, but um I think it's Swedish. Hidgee? Hidgee H-Y-G-E or something like that. No, it's like a Swedish word for that feeling of like comfort and coziness and that like feeling of security. I feel like it is Swedish. I feel like I've seen it on the wall in IKEA. I think that it is Swedish. Um, but yeah, that word, I'm just like, oh yeah, it's that sensation, that feeling of oh, yes, and that feeling, and the smell as well. I love the smell of that kind of that we're treating. Yeah, oh yeah, get the candles out. Anyway, right. What are we talking about today, Jen? I'm so excited about this. I know, I noticed. So, guys, this has been a bit of a secret, but really excited to finally share it because it's almost Christmas time and basically all the training's been going really well. So, a couple of months ago, Santa got in touch with us and one of his reindeer, we won't name name, it's not we won't, you know, name and blame, that's not fair on them. But one of the client confidentiality as well, so think about it. Exactly. But yeah, one of the reindeer um just been having a bit of difficulty with uh the whole job aspect of being a flying reindeer because believe it or not, it doesn't actually come naturally to them. But we'll discuss that, we'll get on to that. So, like I say, a few months ago, Santa got in touch and said, Hey guys, I need some behavioural support in training my reindeer to fly again. And we were just like, Yes, absolutely can't be. Well, first of all, we're like celebrity stages. Wow, like Santa's calling us. I mean, we were yeah, we were we were very excited all together, not gonna lie. Absolutely. It's Santa. You don't you don't say no to Santa. You don't say no to Santa, you don't say no to Santa. Um I mean you can that's gonna make a Kardashian joke there. I I don't think I've ever watched it. You've never watched the Kardashians. I was just gonna say you can say it's gonna be like below deck, so you're gonna get me hocked now. But I was gonna say you can say no to Kim Kardashian, but you can't say no to Santa. You just don't. So, right, what is the issue? Well, basically, uh the reindeer have had some time off in their off season coming back into work, and one of them has just become a little bit sensitised, a little bit spooked and worried about the process. So we said, right, Santa, we're gonna strip this right back. We're gonna get a bit of a case history, and we're gonna help you retrain your reindeer for flying so you're fit and able and safe to go on Christmas Eve. So we've been working for the last few months, um, and I think it's important, and he's been great at saying it when we talked about it. We went, look, this is a really, really great case study to be able to share with our listeners, and he's been fantastic and has given us like written consents to be able to share all of that with you. So thank you so much, Santa, for for allowing us to do that because it's it's not often that you get to retrain a reindeer. Um so we're delighted to show you and talk or show you or talk to you today about like what it is to be a reindeer, what they need as a reindeer, and how we can help support a reindeer to be able to pull a sleigh and get all those presents out because it's a big, big, big job. Um, so I wanted to start first of all with just maybe just explaining to everybody what like a reindeer is because I know that we we know we know Dasher, we know Prancer, we know Vixen, we know all of those reindeer. But what is an actual reindeer? We're looking at it from we've talked a lot about species-specific behavior. Yeah. So a reindeer is also known as a caribou, and they live in nomadic herds, so just like horses, like they live in in big herds, they're also a migratory species, so that means they move thousands of miles a year. So we're taking that natural behavior of traveling huge, vast distances and being able to capitalize that on helping get Santa Slay around the world. I mean, that's so that's one of the qualities about the species, which is great for the job, you know, they're they're very well suited for the this job role. Exactly. Um, so we're able to train them to be able to use that migratory instinct, and it also really helps as well. So, like a migratory species learns where to travel around, you know, and this is obviously terrestrial, so on on the ground, and they learn landmarks and all the rest of it, which again is a fantastic skill for when Santa is moving around the globe. Yeah, I had a yeah, I had a quick chat with Santa on this one, and I was talking about like how do you navigate, and he didn't tell me all the secrets because he said he needs to leave some magic out there. But the the reindeer do get to know certain landmarks, so they can say so Himalayas, for example, Atlas Mountains, the oceans, the differences as they're going over America, where it gets all say flatter, and then we've got the Rockies, and I thought that was really, really cool. And obviously, when they're going around the world in different directions where the sunlight is coming from. So I was like, I love how he is capitalizing on their natural behavior of that migratory like protest of like say landmarks and knowing. I was like, Oh, it's fantastic, I love that. That's amazing, and and we see that in like you know, horses and dogs and other species that we've domesticated, you know, with sniffer dogs, you know, like and and as a horses, like you know, the draft species that can pull, you know, it's just it's wonderful that he's understanding what the caribou is and what the reindeer are and what they can bring to the table. So we were we were just oh well, he's been in the job a long time, so I think he's he's pretty good at it. Um, and so like one of the other things to understand as well about you know, reindeer is you know, the the herds are really, really important. And back 200 years ago, believe it or not, Santa only actually had once reindeer to pull his sleigh, which you know, at the time that was what you know, we're like, that's one, that's fine. You know, we didn't have that many boys and girls to get all the presents out to, so he was able to do one, and then he learned more about what the species needs and the fact that they're a herding animal and built up to have more caribou on the sleigh because it makes them feel safer, it's a defense mechanism against predators, so again, their natural behavior. So it's using that understanding of what reindeer are and what they need to feel safe and secure. So he bumped it up to eight, and then Rudolph came along, and then it was nine. So we have this really, really nice, robust team together to make themselves feel safe while they're while they're doing their job. From a welfare perspective as well, you're then reducing the physical load, you know, as it's now a shared load, and as the slave inevitably got bigger, and you know, people's um choices and gifts have changed over the years, and the amount that people are buying as well. So Santa had to do some upgrades over the years, and it's a bit much bigger, heavier carriage, and we're gonna talk about that in more detail. So now he was spot on there from like you say, from a behavioral perspective, but also an actual welfare perspective of the demands that we're putting on their bodies. So that was great as well. Loved that. Yeah, it's fantastic, and like the reindeer themselves, like the physiological structures, so they're really, really well adapted to cold environments, you know. So they have special nasal structures that helps keep them warm because believe it or not, the higher you, you know, as much as we're flying all around the world and there's different temperatures, the higher you go up, yeah, the colder it gets. Altitude, yeah. Altitude. So they're they've got these special nasal structures which help keep the air that they're breathing warm. This prevents heat loss and it keeps them comfortable wherever they fly in the world, night or day, as they're traveling across the world and in those higher altitudes. And they also have these like specialized cloven hooves, so they're slightly different to sort of a horse's hoof, um, they're a different type of ungulate, but the shape of the hooves almost act like snowshoes, and it really helps them walk on on snow, but that's perfectly adapted as well to doing watching landing on roofs, yeah, you know, and different types of structures. So it they they really have these really nice adaptive mechanisms to help us, you know, place them for this job and helping helping out Santa. What's really important for us when we're doing behavioral modification is understanding that actually all of Santa's reindeer are female, believe it or not. Yeah, this is really I didn't realize this. Yeah, so you know, we we kind of often associate, you know, horns or antlers with male species, but there's lots of species that grow horns and antlers that both the male and the female have antlers. So in uh reindeer and caribou, both male and female grow antlers. So for males, they tend to lose their antlers in November after the mating season, after they've found themselves a lovely lady reindeer, they lose their antlers. Whereas the female reindeer keep their antlers into the spring and they lose them after they've given birth. And the chances are as well that some of you know Santa's Santa's reindeer, when they're flying, may also be carrying the pit and waiting for the pitch patter of little baby feet. So they may actually be pregnant as well. So that's a nutritional requirement and an extra stress on them that we need to consider too. Now they're a few months out, I'd say after the mating season, so they're only going to maybe a month or two, but it's still something that is worth considering for the physiological needs of the reindeer when they're committing to this task. All the more reason for having a bigger team of them, like I say, taking that stress, that weight load off of them as well. Also, just on that note, uh, and we're gonna we're gonna touch back on this again later, but it makes it all the more important that you do leave those snacks out there for the reindeer. Because like I say, they're they're they're potentially eating for two, and it's a big job they've got to do. There's a I mean, I I'm not sure Santa would let us take some um blood samples, put heart rate monitors on them, but I'd love to know the physiological demands on the reindeer. But I think we we can we can accept that it's a big job. PhD waiting to happen there, I think you know, it'd be so good. And and yeah, it is, and we will touch back on it, it like it is really, really important. That's why we've always done it. Maybe like you know, hopefully this sort of like puts all those things together. It's like, oh, I've always left. Um when we were growing up, we always left carrots out, you know, for the reindeer and cookies for Santa. But it like as I say, we've studied more and we've gotten more involved in behavioral modification and obviously support in Santa. For me, it really put the two together. I'm like, oh, that makes so much sense. Yeah. How much they're pulling, the fact that they may be carrying like new baby reindeer on the way, the physiological demands of pulling the sleigh, and also the sleigh is full of all the gifts for Christmas. So Santa doesn't have the same kind of space to be able to carry extra forage or food or you know, to help the reindeer go. So it's a collaborative effort. When we all put out food for them, it means that he's going great house to house. I can keep them going and I can make sure that they they have food along the way and be able to perform the task, which is something that I really love. All around the world, yeah, all around the world, everybody is is supporting these reindeer. Like, what an amazing, you know, what an amazing like global effort, it's actual humanity coming together, it's fantastic, and yeah, all the variety, the different foodstuffs and varieties as well. So, although we might be thinking, oh well, if everyone in the UK puts out carrot, all they're gonna have is carrot, but don't worry guys, they are going all over the world, and different foodstuffs will be available in different countries. So they've got that one covered. But look, I am excited, let's get into this. I think we just start at the beginning. Yeah. So whenever we have a fear-based behaviour, which is partly what's happened here, is that we like to strip everything back and start with some desensitization and making sure that the reindeer is happy with everything that they've got to deal with. So I'm very fortunate that I have a phenomenal mother who is amazing with when it comes to horsemanship, and she is connected to the Gearlockhead RDA carriage driving group back in Scotland, and she has supported us through this behaviour modification plan to help Santa retrain this reindeer by providing us some hands-on experience, sharing sharing her hands-on experience and knowledge in the tack and equipment associated with carriage driving to make sure that we were up to date. Absolutely, because we can bring all the the behavioural modification and the training and support there, but we don't do a lot of carriage driving ourselves. So having that knowledge and expertise, oh, it's been phenomenal. Oh, it's not, you know, to be able to support Santa. So thank you very much. Yeah, thanks, Mum. You're amazing. So we quickly understood that there's lots of different parts of the harness that we need to sensitise the reindeer to. So for anyone who's not from a carriage driving background, just going to give you a little bit of an example. So there is a piece of equipment called the backstrap that goes all the way along their back that connects from the front pad to the breeching at the back. And the breeching has a cropper that goes under the dock as well, and there's also the broad bands that go around the quarters halfway between the dock and the hocks, that has contact with the hamstrings, a bit like a pessoa, and then has loin straps which go up over the quarters from side to side and helps keep everything in place. And at the front end, you've got the collar and the straps there as well. You've obviously got the bars from the harness, the reindeer is going to have to be strapped to another reindeer beside them, in front of them, behind them, and lastly, there's a bridle. So there's just a lot of kit there, a lot of different um sensory input. A really interesting discussion I had with my mum there was she doesn't think I checked in with Santa, obviously, but she was like, obviously, the driving ponies have their blinkers. So we checked in with Santa. This was an interesting one. The reindeer don't have blinkers. Yeah, and and it made it but it makes sense because not only do you know that they're a prey animal, so they need to be able to see behind. There's lots of other, you know, reindeer with them. They also need to be able to see down because they're in the air, right? And they need to be able to see to the side. And we talked about them being a migratory species. So Santa relies on them so much and their innate behavior to be able to migrate that they need to be able to see, yeah, and and and and be able to adapt and work together as a team. Yeah, yeah. And uh this made me laugh. Um, I didn't think about it, it's when Santa brought it up. They have the added issue of dodging the airplanes. He's never said it's busy up there, it's a highway sometimes, and he doesn't he doesn't always get it right, and he's relying on the reindeer having that field of vision and working as a team. Yeah, so even if he's saying, right, guys, we're going left, one of them might spot an airplane and make that decision to go up, down, left, or right, whatever to avoid. I was like, God, yeah, it's a stressful job up there, you know. It is a stressful job. So we had our work cut out for us, uh, starting at the bare basics of okay, before we look at the behaviours that the reindeer needs to perform, let's make sure that they're actually comfortable with all the tack and equipment that we've got. So, do you want to do you want to get us started there, Barbara? How did we desensitize to all the stuff that they're actually wearing? Yeah, so it it it sounds it sounds kind of daft, but it it's actually kind of noisy uh tack. So there's there's bells on I say on all of it as well. Yeah, so familiar with us. I would be so familiar with them as well. We know what that sound is like, but actually, you know, it's if you've never had that on you, it's quite uh abrasive sound. And for a prey animal as well, they're going like, whoa, what's that? Yeah. So one of the first things that we wanted to do is just help desensitize this reindeer to the sound. So we did this in a couple of different ways. Obviously, we talked about them like in carrots, and we used a positive reinforcement. So we stood kind of further away from from the reindeer and we just kind of lift it up, let them jingle like very lightly. So we were good, maybe oh, how far would you say would be like five or ten metres away, you know? Yeah. And one of us was beside the reindeer, and we'd we'd lift it up, let it jingle a little bit, and then we just mark, we just said or yes, and then we gave them a carrot, and we just repeated that a few times just to help them like go, oh, actually, that sound isn't too scary. Yeah. Um, so that was one of the first things that we did just to kind of get them used to the equipment that they were going to be using and the sound, because when they're actually in the sky and they're on all the time, that jingle is going to be much louder, it's gonna be on them. So with the sensitization, it's really important to do it at a very low threshold so that we don't spoof the reindeer, that we do it from a distance and a very, very quietly. So we we muffled some of the bells and we just did a little light jingle, yeah, and then we paired it with positive reinforcement, and we only increased the jingle or came closer when we were really happy that this reindeer was like really, really relaxed. They went back to kind of munching on a bit of their hay, they were kind of a lot, you know, they sort of decompressed a little bit. We weren't, we didn't have this big alert, um, we didn't have this big alert kind of high head carriage. Yeah. So that was really, really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to make sure we had really solid before we kind of even thought about putting it on. Absolutely. And to support this a little bit further, we always made sure that we were so although we had our reindeer we were working with, the herd was right there as well. So the herd that was already desensitized, they read they weren't really reacting. They looked up in interest because they were like, oh, is it the time of the year again? But they weren't running away. And so we had that behavioural support. Well, you know, the herd, the group is there, those pair bonds were there to support. And as Barbara said, And that's social learning. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So when the radio in question that we were training no longer felt the need to provide a startled response, head-up alert, it was very much grazing, might acknowledge us, head down grazing, functioning as normal. We were like, Great, we've got this, we're good to go. So the next step we had there was once we're desensitized to the sound and the smells and the sights of all the tack and the equipment. The next step was actually getting the equipment on the reindeer. Now, we Barbara and I both love target work so that the animal places the items on themselves, but we had to remember we weren't working with a horse anymore, they actually had antlers, and that could become very tricky when it came to collaring. Um, and also we had to take into consideration the fact that when it's game day, as it were, when it's when it's the when it's you know Christmas Eve, they've got to go, it's a bit like a conveyor belt. So the reindeer they've almost been target trained to a mat. They know where they're standing, they know where their their pairs are. And the elves come up and they do the tacking up, and they've only got so much time. So we had these discussions with the team of elves and Santa, and the decision was made that the most this the best behaviour that we could help for everyone would be just to stand still and be confident while we tack them up. Yes. So yeah, although many of our clients, and you'll see us on social media very much targeting our horses to the equipment, we decided in this situation the best job was actually stand still, relaxed and confident while we put all this stuff on you. Because we we need the reindeer to be able to not just associate the harnessing with us and the activity, but as Jen said, you know, all the different elves, and it might be different elves on the day because they're going to get called away, or we've got to fill this. It's a really, really hectic time. And we want to be able to set the reindeer up for success in the best way possible. That if it's a new elf or it's a different person, or someone drops something, or it's a little bit hectic that they're not stressed in that situation. Yeah. And as as Jen said, the antlers. Yeah. Oh, that was a that was a funny one. That was an interesting one for us. We're like, oh yeah, there's something near than that. We didn't think about that. So that was learning for us. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a cool one because that very much differs from uh my experience with the the ponies at RDA. Um so Santa has his harnesses adapted so that they open and close. So it's like a almost like a necklace going on rather than over the head. So that was just really cool. I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Yeah. And what's really interesting as well is like they're all bitless. Yeah. And and the thing is, this is really important as well. Like the their teeth are are much different from horses. They don't have that convenient, you know. So horses will have they have a gap basically in their teeth, and that just we just leverage off that to be able to use a bit, but but reindeers don't have that. So all of them are trained to be bitless. And as you say, like the actual again gonna be looks very different then from a carriage driving horse, and like because you've got the antlers and bitless, there's nothing going in there, so the whole head harness is very different, yeah. Um, so lots of learning on our part. Absolutely, and this is why uh doing the groundwork. So we had the desensitization done, take that box, and we could tack up and we paired all that possible reinforcement so that the reindeer expected was conditioned to expect that when I see the tack, when that I hear the tack, when it's coming towards me, when it's been placed on me, these are all positive, enjoyable experiences. I can carry on munching my hay or whatever fodders around, and it's nothing to worry about. Once we got that all ticked off, we then had to look at our long reigning and groundwork. Just before, oh, just before you jump into that. So, one of the things that we found, so one of the things that we found when we were doing this was because of the way the harness goes on, it goes on over their back and comes underneath like a girth. And we did find, and this kind of sets back a little bit, like the reindeer did find the belly area quite challenging. Yeah, and this is something that we've seen a lot with horses that can be a really vulnerable spot for them, and we've seen it with girth shy horses as well. So we have to spend a little bit of time just on the belly area, and one of the things that we did once it was kind of desensitized to everything else going on, and she was desensitized to everything else going on, was just stand there and spend a little time on just working on the belly. Um, and this sort of again it was a joint effort with just sort of like touching lightly, you know, and making sure that they were okay, and then pairing with with positive reinforcement and slowly bringing the girth over and sorry, under the the belly very, very lightly, keeping it on a light pressure and then highly re reinforcing that as you know to make sure that they were okay. So that was that that took us a few days just to make sure that before we proceeded to anything else, just to make sure that this reindeer was okay with the girth area, and it makes sense. It's it's very common we see it in horses too, you know. So, this is something that we're familiar with. It can be really hard for prey animals to just have something around their belly like that, that's where their lungs are at as well. It can feel a little bit tight, and it's just important to go slowly at that at that point in the training. Yeah, and this is where actually that's touches really nicely on to we were talking about subtle negative reinforcement in the previous episode. So even though the girth wasn't always touching, you have to remember that particularly with the reindeer and some um hairier horse breeds, is some of them have very long hairs, and you know, they can feel a lot more than we give them credit for. So even though the girth wasn't always in contact with our skin, it's making contact with the fur and the hair, and they can still that there's a sensation there. Yes, yeah. And they had that big winter coast, yeah, you know, this time of year as well. Um, so yeah, so that that that took a little bit of time. Um, and then what was next, Jen? Was it long reining? Yeah, so we good old long reining. Hopefully, most of us are aware of long reining. Now, this was a bit less long raining, and again, having having discussions uh with carriage drivers on this, they really emphasise the importance of having the the horse, the animal, the reindeer trained to the voice. Because ideally, you what you don't actually want to be relying on the bit, well, we didn't have a bit to rely on, and it's a lot of reins. I mean, for Santa to be carriage driving, nine reindeer. If they can all be trained off the same cues for stop, go, up, down, left, right, that makes his life a lot easier, especially if he needs to get his compass out and check some navigation. I mean, don't drive and compass check guys. And I think we're all familiar with on dasher, on dancer, on prancer, on vixen. He gets them away. We we yeah, that that you know, we we know that he heavily relies on on voice cues, so it's it's really, really important to get that solid. Yeah, so we trained that brilliantly with uh again a lot of positive reinforcement. So this is where we did look at a little bit of targeting. So to help him out, you have Santa behind her. Sometimes it's one of his hell uh elves helping out because he was a busy man, was couldn't always be there for the training, which was fine. And by having a target left or right, we could pair the reindeer moving towards the target with the word left and the word right. So that was just a nice way of doing rain cues and also a verbal, a verbal cue as well, and connecting that together. So we got that, we got our left, we got rights, we got our woes, stops. The flying that comes a little bit later, guys. We will get to that. We'll get onto that. We will get onto that, it's great. It's like that was just mind-blowing, I won't lie. Um, yeah, but the hex bits that we yeah, so just for for for the left and the right cue, so like the way it would look is you know, you would because we want we won't have the target there when we're in the sky. No, right? We won't have that there, so it's there to aid and support learning. So you cue with say the left rein. So you put a little bit of tension on the left rein. I say there's your your your negative reinforcement and the cue of this is going to be left, and then put the target out to the left. So when the reindeer turns and touches the target, the pressure is released on the left-hand side. We mark the target and go, yep, that's that one, and then provide positive reinforcement. And you you associate then the cue with the target and turning left. Yeah, yeah. And we're just looking for a basic response at that point. So even if the reindeer when they were there, when they just slightly looked left or moved, we were like, Yes, that's the right one, and we can shape it from there. Yeah, so it's just that steady progression, and then when we knew that they kind of had it, layer in as say the voice cue, and then we started to phase out the target as well, because we were not going to have that in the sky. Exactly. It's just there to help make it as easy as possible for them to understand. Absolutely. So once we had the left cue, taking out the target, and as soon as they moved, going, yes, brilliant, and provide the treat reward and layer in the cue and stuff as well. Yeah, yeah. I I always like to think of um something when we use targets and stuff. I describe it as using scaffolding to build a house. I love that, yeah. So you need scaffolding to build a house, to build all your foundations and your walls and everything. But once the house is solid and the cement is dried, you start taking the scaffolding away and the house stays standing on its own. So that's the way I see targets um in every every sphere in in ridden commands and training that I think I think people get a mental block, they're like, but I don't want to ride my horse forever with this long stick of a ball in the end. It's like, well, you're not going to. It's just to help form the behaviour. Once it's there, we've got it, we phase it out. And you know, and we also recommended DeSanta as well, like, and it's something that he was kind of doing anyway, but just to make sure that, like, you know, after Christmas, and I'm sure we get into after it, after Christmas is past, they obviously all get a break. They they get f uh fed up, uh fed up, they get fattened up, they get fed again. Obviously, there's a lot of calories burned, you know, they have their babies, they go into spring, they enjoy all that time. But as we're coming back into kind of the summer season as well, we did sort of recommend like you know, doing little doing some of this behavioural modification, just little sessions, yeah, just reinforce it. Bring back in the target then. Yeah, we know that they understand it, but it's no harm to just like rehearse some of those behaviours intermittently during the summer. It's also really good enriching activity as well. Yeah, it's you know, it it should be targeting should be fun and engaging for them, particularly with positive reinforcement, and that you know, it can really, really help support them on the build-up to Christmas as well. Absolutely, and we we did say this to him for this particular reindeer who had become a bit worried about life. Um, we'll say we were we were training in the lead up to Christmas, so this was part of the reason, as Barbara was just saying there, about you know, just just drip feeding the target work through the summer because we didn't want this reindeer to then associate target work only with doing work that makes it gotta keep it fun. So we got our rain cues done, and we had our our walk trots and speeds and our wall and our slow and all of that as well, and a sensitization to the stick. So the driving stick is a little bit different to how you would use a ridden stick, is it can also be used for helping direction and cues, so a little bit of subtle negative reinforcement there. So, for example, if you wanted the reindeer to turn left, he can flick the stick over around to the right to move away from that pressure to help direct them and things like that as well. So I feel like we've and this is and we talked about like why they don't have blinkers as well, it's so they can they they can see that too. Yeah, they need to be able to see, so he's right behind there's you know, eight to nine reindeers, a good group of them. It it helps that cue and communication so that they can all see it. Yeah, because I mean Rudolph's right at the front, it's a long way there, and if there's high winds, he might not always hear Santa. So by having a nice clear visual clear uh visual cue, that helps that communication get all the way to the front. Because remember, it's the reindeer at the front that are doing most of the directional work. So this is the same with Huskies. You're pulling the sledge, um, it's the ones at the back that are doing the majority of the get-go and stopping, and the ones at the front are doing the turning. So that was really important that Rudolph and the ones at the front also had that visual cue of where to go. So our next step is you might think the next step is to then hook on the carriage, but again, and this was this was them taking the support from the carriage driving group, was that you can't stop the carriage from making noise. So if you were to add the carriage, you're then actually adding two stimuli, the sight, actually three stimuli, the sight of something big being behind them that they can't get away from, the physical effort of pulling something heavy and all the noises. So you have to break those things down. So we started off with one stimuli at a time, so we started with sound. So we had to get the reindeer used to walking in their equipment, in the harness, on the long reins, with different strange, weird noises going on behind them, so such as your sleigh bells, rattling chains, dragging a stick along the wall, you know, progressively strange and weird and normal, unnormal, abnormal, that's the word, noises that they might come across. Um, a car backfiring, uh, ambulance sirens, um dogs, different bird noises. I mean, we the more we went into it, because this isn't just you know, I know I'm a broken-necked environment task person. We suddenly have an environment that's the whole world. Yeah, you know, that these rangers are going to. And I was like, oh my god, you know, how are we gonna manage to do all of those different noises? Um, and where we were, obviously, you know, in the North Pole, like it was so hard to be able to like get all those noises ready. Like, and I say the driving, you know, it was and thank god we had YouTube because we were able to play some of those sounds on our phone. Uh Santa's got great Wi-Fi, by the way. Um, and it's that Elven magic, they can do amazing things out there. 100%, yeah. Um, and so YouTube was great for that. We were able to, you know, find kind of a lot of different noises, be able to turn the volume down, be able to turn it up and help support that desensitization. Yeah, because the um the Arctic Circle is a really scant bare environment. There's really not a lot going on up there. Um and you know, it it's it's kind of reminiscent of working with horses at home and then taking them to the show. You know, the show ground, and it's a very different environment. So burger fans and fly system and bunting, and just all of it. Loudspeakers. So, you know, Barbara and I we were really, you know, delving into all our experiences with you know, when have we done something similar with horses, and thankfully, because learning theory is applicable to different species, once you know the species-specific motivators um and the differences between species, you can apply it, and that was just a fantastic thing to do. So we got them sensitized to all the weird and wonderful sounds, uh, and I have to say, this particular reindeer I found, and I don't know if you found the saying, Jim, when we were working with them, because we'd spent the time at the very start just jingling the bells and the tack and pairing it with positive reinforcement, and because we'd done so much else with positive reinforcement, by the time we were at this stage in the training, I found it started to go much faster. Yeah, and this is something I've seen with horses too. Because we use a lot of positive reinforcement and we've done lots of different tasks. The predictor for this reindeer was oh, hey, these two women are doing weird things with me, but everything that we do is really positive for me and it's a positive experience. So I found that once we got to this stage with the noises, things started to go a lot faster. And it's something that we see a lot with the horses. Yeah, go on. Slow start, fast finish, fast finish, yeah. You get that's true, and the horse starts to go, oh okay, start to generalise. You did this and this and this and this and this. Yeah, that worked out well for me. I think I think I can go with this. Yeah, but what one of one of the really the fun ones to uh and it was your it was Barbara who brought this up because I I'd almost like miss this completely, is uh trying to simulate the sound of when they land on a roof. Because that's very much a doomf, you know? It's gentle. I mean I've I obviously if you had doomf on your roof, you're gonna wake up. Santa's very skilled, but we wanted to almost over-train it as in not over-train, but like train to a much higher level, so when it came to the day, it was much easier for them. Does that make sense? Like, and I know we said we get on to sort of the magic that's involved in flying, but when it comes to landing, it's a really unique, I mean, like landing itself, there's so much in, and it's also like it's a really tricky and dangerous behavior as well. The like we need to have all of those reindeer and like absolutely desensitized to that noise. Yeah. Because if it goes wrong and one of them panics in that situation, where are we? Yeah, the magic has stopped flying. Yeah, you know, so we've landed on the roof, and now we're in a very dangerous position. If something happens and we have a fear response to the landing, you know, we don't want one of those rains, you're panicking, and God forbid something something happens. So for us, I think this is really important to make sure this is as safe as possible. Yeah. So we started this off uh again taking from our own experiences, and we thought, right, how is this similar to working with horses? And I came to me and I was like, it's like a drop fence, like cross-country. So we started off with one reindeer at a time, going off the drop fence, increasing the height, so the reindeer began to get that sort of physiological understanding and expectation of going from a height, landing. But the difference here is that as the reindeer jumped off the drop fence, we had to ask them to then stop. It wasn't drop fence and canter off, it was drop fence and stop as quickly as you can. So we did that with all the reindeer individually. Well, actually, the others were all pretty good, it was mainly this one that we had to work with. And then we had to then staying individually again, and this part of the training came after the carriages. So we're gonna we're gonna loop back to the carriages, but then we had to do this while having a very small light carriage, yes, to stimulate the feel and the scent. And I think it's worth saying there's some really nice research that we kind of pulled for this and when it comes to horses called affordant dynamics, which is you know helping them kind of figure out where their feet are going themselves, you know, like trying not to interfere too much because we really need to have them independent as well. And Santa's relying on them so much from a safety perspective during this landing phase that they need to have the skill to be able to do it, and he can't interfere, they need to be able to coordinate it. So that drop fence was so good with that lighter carriage because we were able to do it as a repetition, and you know, the first few times it was like, oh, what's happening, and you know, figuring it out, but that learning is messy, you know, and trying to adapt to that situation and letting them find their feet, letting them build up the physic, like the physical requirements that are are part of that sleigh coming behind them, that drop and that stop. Yeah, and just so there's several things happening in there, and just in case anyone's worried here, so the reindeer on its own went up to about a one-meter drop. We didn't then add the carriage at the one-meter drop. The carriage, the carriage came into play way back at like the step that was about a few inches off the ground. Yeah, we're jumping back and forth, so I guess you move up, you increase the difficulty, so then you pull the task back to an easier place. We're all about building them and not terrifying them at all. Absolutely. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure nobody thought we were like now, go do go do burley. Could you imagine Santa cleaning up a burley? Um I would too. What was I gonna say? Sorry, so we've jumped it, we we jumped forward a little bit. Do you want to go back to just introducing the carriage and how we did that, Jen? Yeah, so the carriage. So we've got we've got what what have we got so far? Sensation to tack, we've got control, we've got noises, we've got sensations, and um part of the long reigning as well was getting different people to stand and walk behind in different coloured outfits and shapes and sizes to try and replicate the fact that Santa's gonna be there one day, looks very different to the elves, and the fact there's gonna be a big carriage there. So, to be fair to the reindeer, we started off with a training cart, cart, which was just uh two two-wheeler, two carriage, two wheels, uh nice and light, very agile, great suspension, and and we picked the wheels to begin with. Um, this is really important. Like, obviously, there's gonna be a sleigh. Sorry, I know we jump back and forth between carriage and wheels, like you know, and and sleigh. The reason we did the carriage first was it just had a bit more friction. So a sleigh, particularly on the snow and different ones, has less friction. Obviously, so like you know, it's it's a lighter one and takes a bit more to kind of speed up a bit. So we just wanted to again reduce the ask for the reindeer. There was again negative reinforcement actually helping us out there. So as we started to say, whoa, because the carriage had more friction there, it slows down quicker, and then as the reindeer slow down and stop, the pressure would then released a bit quicker there as well. Yes, yeah, so that was really important for us as well. Again, building up slowly. Yeah. So we then repeated all of our groundwork that we'd just done before with a two-wheeler light carriage. So we had to go through, let's say, the lumps and the bumps, we went over different terrain, we did all of our pre-training. So we did left turns, right turns, stop, go, over dips and hills, off the small drop fence, jingles, jangles, rocks, chains, and the thud. Once we ticked all those boxes, then we moved up to a slightly heavier carriage just by adding weight to them. So we stayed with the same one, sorry. But we added more weight and we just made it visually bigger as well. Because remember, guys, there's gonna be a big sack of presence there. Yeah, absolutely. And we just built that up very slowly, and then it it came down to then adding in the other reindeer and working as a team. Yeah. And and I'll say, like once we you know, and I said it before, like once we got to that kind of sound bit and we'd really built these positive associations with this reindeer, the rest of it did really accelerate quite quickly. So we started this in sort of late September, early October, was that when we kind of were we were really at the North Pole as well? Yeah. So by the time we got to November time, really we had a lot of this fairly established, which was great. Yeah, guys, when you all thought I was in Greece on holiday, I wasn't actually in Greece, I was the artist. That was all just all it was all cover up. Um the um the the last six weeks really has been, you know, together as a team because there's so much, you know, there's so many other things that kind of go into this as well. Like, you know, there's you know, there's the team that's there, like, and the team of reindeer um and and working together as well. Um there's also you know, like practicing the actual sleigh pulling, there's the presence, there's getting used to Santa, there's the weather conditions on the day. There's so many things as well to consider some things that we just couldn't train for. But no, but that that's that's when all your your foundations really come into play. It's really strong foundations, so when the unexpected comes into play, like it's it's like I said about the horses, they have enough data input there so they can predict positive outcomes. So even when something bizarre happens, they can go, oh well, the majority of the time you know, when I do what I'm asked, it's okay. So I'll I'll give it a go. Benefit of the doubt sort of thing. I think benefit of the doubt is like again, it's using language that I we get worried about using, like trust and things like that. Do horses trust us and do reindeer trust us? But it's I find it one of the easiest ways to explain it. I know some people talk about like a piggy bank and like you're feeding into that savings account, and when you need to make a withdrawal, you're not going into the negative well. I suppose like the way I like to think about it is like, well, how do we define trust? You know, and I know we've talked about this in in previous episodes. And you know, if I say like if I trust that something's going to happen, the reason I trust something is gonna happen is because of predictable outcomes, and that's the way I like to define it. It's happened before, I trust that my bins are going to get picked up tomorrow. Yeah, you know, yeah, that's you know, that's you know, that's when they get picked up because that's what they always get picked up. Yeah. So when we s we say trust, it's because of predictability. So when we we say trust in this, that's what we're kind of referring to. Yeah, and that that comes from positive associations, you know, being uh, you know, aware of what the animal needs in that situation. Obviously, we're talking about reindeer here, but also applies to your dogs, your cats, your horses, and you know, and uh having good positive experiences and repeating them in repetition. Absolutely, and there was a certain amount of trust that we had to then figuratively hand over the reins at this point and say, Right, Santa and team, we've we've we've gone through the behaviour modification plan now, you know, we've ticked all the boxes, we've tested as many different variations and simulations as possible. It's now up to you guys to run with it. So it was really important that we finish this training programme um back in November with enough time to make adjustments. So this is something that we both like to do with our clients. So if you're a client of ours and you've you've gone through a behaviour modification program, you know, it's it's really good practice to just check in after a month or two, a couple of weeks, just make sure that you know no everything's staying on track as it should do. Because it Yeah, because we we we troubleshoot new things, new behaviours sort of appear. They do, because they can yeah, they just do natural uh well variation between all the reindeer because it's at this point now now we were saying, right, they're working as a team, and we had to make sure that during this time no social bonds had changed. So obviously each year they will have the reindeer have a certain pairing, and that's how they like to work together. Again, it's very reminiscent of uh huskies as well. They have to obviously get along in their pairings, and we'd obviously interacted a lot with this one reindeer and others, and we just wanted to make sure that there hadn't been any changes in that social structure, so we had to say, like, crack on, let's make sure that they're all getting along, and we did actually have to make a few changes, a few swaps here and there. And once that was done, we were we were good to go. And it was uh seven more sleeps, seven more sleeps. Mar, but we haven't told them about the magic. No, we haven't. I was gonna yeah, so yeah, okay, we'll go with the mind and then we'll just we'll maybe just summarise all the little points. Um yeah, we'll talk about the magic. Oh my god, this is mind-blowing. Like, we're very scientifically minded people, as you you might uh I don't want to guess about this. I don't want to accept this. I saw it with my own eyes. I know, so it was it was it was very hard for us. We were like, of course, again, because we're scientifically minded people, we were like, but how is it working? Yeah, you know, and then you get a wink from Santa and he's not saying anymore. So we don't know the hows and the whys, but it was magical, it was unreal. There's there's there's something in when Santa calls reindeer, come is it come dasher, come blitz, and I've got them mixed up now. But you know when he starts calling their names? Yeah, there's when he starts calling them, there's something in it, and like it ignited it's almost like the cues, you know what? It's almost like the cue. Yeah. So when he when he that's bumps, I'm getting goosebumps right now, just remembering it. Yeah, because they all just switch. It's so hard to yeah, and that was it, and it was like that was the case. Yeah, you just see it all come together. Yeah, when he went through those names, it was like a a switch, a cue, and we've all seen it when we see horses connect a verbal cue with a behaviour, and it was almost like the magic of the flying was the behaviour. They all just switched on, and they all just knew their job, and the consequence, so the output was when they got the end of the runway and they were up, and they just knew. And I think that is where the natural instinct comes into play, you know. You know, you had your more experienced ones at the front, and they're working as a herd, and they go as a unit, and the the unexplainable I loved it we're trying to rationalise the logic because my brain can't cope, my brain just can't cope with the fact that we just saw reindeer fly, and all we get from Santa is it's Christmas magic. This is Christmas spirit, this is what happens, it helps me fly. His little wink as well. I'm like, Oh, you cheeky fellow. He'd get away with money, wouldn't he? That man, I know. It's uh but it was yeah, I say and goosebumps just thinking about it because it was, it was just this. Um, do you know what it reminded me of as well, Jen? It's like again, coming back to to horses. And you know, when you see, like, you know, I say a a horse human sort of team, and they're just working really in sync, like they almost like can read each other's minds, and like you know, again, we're scientifically people, so I'm just like, oh, there's kind of like this, you know, horse-human coupling, like, and they're reading each other's body language, you know, and we don't know the full kind of mechanisms of it, and is there a learning component? But again, I'm trying to rationalise the magic, but it almost felt like watching that happen, you know, was just yeah, it was incredible. Well, um, yeah, as we said in our previous episode, you know, even with learning theory, biology is evolving, science is evolving and developing, we're always learning more. We can only talk about what we know right now, and you know, maybe in a few years we'll actually be able to define what that magic is. So we're not gonna deny it. The magic is real, the Christmas spirit is real, and maybe one day we will really understand the significance of it. But no, I absolutely loved it. So, what were what were your takeaway points from this experience, Barbs? Yeah, so what was really it was so nice as someone who's originally kind of trained as a zoologist. Obviously, I know I I've specialized with with horses, so it was really lovely to to kind of bring that zoology bit back in and you know and think about like you know Oh, I learned so much from you. So much. Oh, thank you. It was so lovely. Like I was going back to to the recesses of my of my my undergraduate and thinking about like, okay, you know, like they're they're completely different species, like um, they have a shorter dock, uh, they've antlers, um, they eat slightly different foods, they have you know completely different feet and like you know, they have different gates as a results and everything as well. So it was it was really really nice. But again, what we know about learning theory and learning capacities of animals and how to train behaviors, you know, it's it's 100 you can apply it to everything, you know, and and we we've talked about that before. Like, you know, it is the the beauty about learning theory is that it can be applied, but understanding the species-specific behavior, and I know we talked about that at the start, and what a reindeer is, what their innate behavior is, herd animal, obviously, they're herd before, how they're adapted to you know, migratory species, how they're adapted to to work in those conditions. So um, it was really lovely to be able to apply that. Um, I I really enjoyed it. That was just that was something that was so fun for me, and so it's just it was just nice. Like we we work with horses all the time, so it was just lovely to be able to kind of apply all of that learning and and bring it into a different species. So that was something that was just wonderful for me, and I know we talked a lot about magic, but like I, you know, I think and Santa said it to us at one point, and I'm gonna badly paraphrase it. And when he was watching us work with the positive reinforcement, and he just went, positive reinforcement is the real magic here, and it kind of made me tear up a little bit because when you get that from Santa, and he was just like, and that's when he was talking about like leaving the treats out and stuff, yeah, and the fact that like this global effort where everybody appreciates that, yeah, you know, that there everybody leaves out carrots for the reindeer, and he's like, No, I use scratches all the time, I make sure that I reward them. And the one thing that keeps his reindeer going on that long night is using positive reinforcement, and it was just so lovely to hear because I was like, because obviously we use a lot of positive reinforcement, but like just hearing it from the big man himself, yeah, you know, it really it just uh just made me so happy. Yeah, absolutely. And and again, I know we said it earlier, but yeah, it's you know, we've seven sleeps to go, you know, before before Christmas, guys. So, you know, do please, you know, make sure to to leave out carrots for the reindeer. You can also use celery, they probably like celery as well. Um, you know, if if you want to add something else in, but absolutely do like and he really reiterated how important that was. Yeah, and for himself, don't forget about Santa as well. He likes a little tipple here and there. Uh but no, I think So what was your big so what were your big learnings, Jen? That was my yeah, mine were to have faith in my own training as well. I'm a big advocate, as I've said in this podcast and previous, of a slow, slow start, fast finish. But you know, when you hit those walls, it can feel you can get a bit anxious and think, oh, is this working? Are we getting there? But it's just having a bit of faith in in the process and knowing that no, no, no, we're still going slow, we haven't got to the fast bit yet. That's okay, it will come. Carry on as we are, we're seeing the results, they're not big results, but it's incremental, and then we had that just skyrocket of um progress. But also, what I loved about this experience was again being a bit brave and going, okay, we need to think outside the box, we need to pull it. I was just about to say the drop your drop ideas, yeah. We just think we can just pull from other aspects of life because I used to do British eventing, so I'm like, come on, Jen, like what can you pull on? What are your strengths and experiences that you can pull on to make this work? And that was just a really rewarding experience for me for my remembering that you know, experiences that I've had before getting on this journey of of being a behaviorist and learning theory and ethical training. I don't need to disregard those years. They still have lots of good learning experiences from lots of value. So that is a personal one. That was really I really enjoyed that. It was really good. Yeah, yeah. Now it's fantastic, and you know, in one sense, um, like obviously being very selfish, I kind of hope he needs us next year. Oh we need to make this an annual booking. I know, I I would love to, but also from a professional perspective, I hope he doesn't need us again because that means we've done our job right. So yeah, yeah. As I said, you know, I say my goal is for you to not need me. Absolutely. Like I I I want you to not need me anymore. Exactly. Um, but a holiday to the North Pole and the hot chocolate there, too. But something else. I think I think it's hot. I think we've got something else, not hot chocolate. I'm not gonna lie. A little bit of hot toddy in there. I think so. They've got something special going on out there. Um, so guys, I mean I hope you have enjoyed this episode as much as we have. Yeah, I it's I thank you so much to you know, Santa for for letting us talk to all our listeners about it and giving all the details about this particular client. You know, we've done our best not to name the reindeer for our client confidentiality, but thank you for giving us permission to share all of this with everyone because you know it's it's such a great learning opportunity, not only for us, but also I think for everyone else to learn like what goes into it and like all it's not just about getting the actual day and getting all the presents out, which is an amazing thing, but it's all of the the other training that goes in behind the scenes. Um, and I think we've got one last shout out as well, just to thank for giving all our knowledge and expertise into carriage driving because it's not something that me and Jen have a lot of experience with, so we really relied heavily on the RDA. Yeah, I just wanted to make a special shout out to the Gale Ohead RDA carriage driving group back in Scotland, my hometown. Particular shout out to my mother, who is just as I say, a phenomenal influence and inspiration and an amazing horsewoman. And I just wanted to say that if you guys are looking for a charity to support, or maybe you got a little bit, maybe you want to do some gift giving for charities. Some of my friends do that. They say, like, instead of getting me a Christmas gift, I'd like you to donate something with the money that you would have bought me a gift. So I just wanted to put it out there, guys. You could donate directly to the Girlhead group, and that I have obviously a very close connection to within my family. But there's the RDA groups all over the country, so there's riding groups and there's the carriage driving groups, and they are a charity, they do exist and rely on donations as well. So just putting it out there, there's lots of other charities as well out there, but yeah, we really couldn't have done this episode without them, their support and their expertise. So thank you very, very much. So on that note, Merry Christmas everyone. We guess we'll see you in the new year, and uh good luck Santa if you're listening. Yeah, fingers and toes crossed, all the training's gone well. Absolutely. So good luck, Santa, and Merry Christmas, everybody. Merry Christmas.