Bonus Episode 2: Positive Reinforcement

 This bite-sized episode focuses on Positive Reinforcement: adding something the horse values to encourage behaviour. We chat about food rewards, scratches, marker signals, and what makes reinforcement actually reinforcing. Perfect for anyone curious about introducing R+ into training routines. 

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:00

So, welcome back, guys, to our second bonus episode. And today's topic is Barbara. Uh we're still sticking with reinforcement gen because we've got more to talk about, and this time we're going to talk about positive reinforcement. Fabulous. So, if anyone's familiar with the quadrants of learning theory, you'll know there's four quadrants, and there's two sides, you've got your positive and your negative. We've done one side of the top row, and now we're going to do the other side of that top row. So, just to recap, reinforcement, you're calling in the reinforcements stronger, more likely that the behavior will happen again. Yeah, we're looking at you know what is making the behavior more likely to be repeated. So, exactly the same with negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is still reinforcing. Let's just focus on that reinforcement word for a second. It's anything that drives an increase in the likelihood of behavior being repeated. So if it's positive, then we are adding something. So the positive, just like the negative in our previous bonus, comes from the adding or the removal. But ultimately, it is increasing the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. And I think positive reinforcement is getting a lot of press at the minute. You know, it's getting, thanks to the canine world training, it is very much something we're aiming for. It's a bit more understood, actually, which is funny because the majority of classical and traditional horse methods actually derive from negative reinforcement. Yet, when we talk about positive reinforcement, people do tend to generally grasp, maybe not know how to utilize, but know understand that when it's positive, the horse is getting something out of it. We're going to give them something on a very basic level. But it's our job in this episode, we're going to define it more specifically, and we're going to give you guys a much better understanding of how it is used and how it affects learning. So we've got some other species examples we're going to go into first. So, Barbara, you were just telling me about thrushes. This time of year, and I see them a lot on the roads, and you might keep an eye out next time, and you'll see these birds on the road and they're thrushes, and they are holding a snail, they're picking the snail up by their beak, and they're hitting the snail against the road, and you'll see the shells everywhere. Now, this is a learned behavior, so it's not something that thrushes as a bird have learned how to know how to do. They have to learn how to do it because the shell is protecting the snail, so they need to pick up the shell, they need to break the shell open, and they don't have the ability to do that with their own biology, so they use a hard surface, they might find a big stone, they like to use our tarmac roads quite a lot, and they will bang the shell against the road, break the shell open, and get the snail. So this reinforces this type of behavior, it's a learned behavior. They have to break the shell open. When they perform that behavior of raising the snail up with their beak, hitting the shell, breaking it open, they are then rewarded with the additive of a tasty snail dinner. So it's really, really important. If Thrush performed that behaviour and there was no snail inside, there would be no reinforcement because they weren't getting the additive. What helps them learn how to perform that behaviour is the fact that they are provided with tasty Mr. Snail after they break open the shell. And I think what's really cool is we actually see this behaviour throughout the animal kingdom. So you've just reminded me there. So I grew up in the west coast of Scotland on sailing holidays with my family, and you'd very often see otters doing this as well. So the otters would get their shellfish, pop it on their tummy. So if you're not familiar with otters, they are awesome creatures and they can float around for ages on their backs, and they'll put the shell on their tummy and get a rock, and they'll go and pick their favourite rock. This is how well developed it has become, is they will find their favourite pebbles or rocks that have a certain shape or texture, whatever, and they will smash open the shell and get the food inside. So we're seeing it in birds, we're seeing it in mammals, we're seeing it in we're seeing it in other species as well. Oh, we can see it across the board because ultimately, if we go back, if you know, if you've listened to our previous bonus episode, which I encourage you to do before listening to this on negative reinforcement, we talked about it being an important survival mechanism. So one cannot exist without the other. Reinforcements both exist in order to help every species to be able to survive and get the things that they need and help some learn and develop. Because we're not born with all this learning, we have to go out into the world and learn it. There's lots of different ways to do it, and positive reinforcement is one of them. So different species will require different things in order to survive. Most and pretty much all animals require some kind of calories, right? We all kind of need food, so getting that food is a form of positive reinforcement. But it also means getting things like scratches, company, reproduction is a big one too. You know, that is positively reinforcing, you know, and it's something that is driven for us to go and do and seek that out because if we don't do that, then we don't survive and we don't continue to prosper in the wild. So it's really, really broken down. So pretty much every single species, including different types of insects, will perform a form of positive reinforcement in order, sorry, they will utilize positive reinforcement within their learning repertoire. I love that. And if you think about ourselves as species of humans, one of the first examples that comes to my mind is the verbal praise and affirmation we give toddlers, and as they're growing up, the first time they stand up and walk towards their parent. If you can imagine it, if you've seen your any family members, your nieces, your nephews, your own children, how much praise we give the children, like, oh my god, you're amazing! Yes, come to mommy, come to daddy, and you can see the child's face light up. For our species, that way of communicating is massively, positively reinforcing that behavior. And you know, children want to please their parents in those early years, so it is reinforcing for humans to do that positive affirmation and that communication. So that's great for us, but it's not always true for every species, is it? No, and like ultimately, you're listening to this podcast right now. How many other animal and you're learning, you are learning through this podcast, you know, and and we we like to listen and we can learn through that shared knowledge, and that's how we've evolved as a species. So for us, when we look at our evolutionary roots, you know, we are a social species, we rely on cohesive bonds, and we rely on actually supporting and positively those positive positive affirmations in our body language is how we have survived. So that is how we communicate and how we support each other. But for the horse, horses are prey animals, so verbal communication is very limited because if they make a lot of noise, right, then it's gonna be really easy for Mr. Lion and Mr. Tiger to come and find you, and that's the end of you know, that's the end of you. Um, to and you won't evolve and so a lot of their communication is very subtle, it's body language, it's how they move, it's how they support each other. Now, this is something that we're gonna talk about on a different podcast. Jen, do you want to give everybody a little bit of a sneak peek on our baby talk? Yeah, so any of my longer-term followers on socials um might have seen that a while ago I shared a paper on baby talk and how it can stimulate um better learning in horses. So it was very much a preliminary paper, and we really want to go into it because, on the face of it, the title and the abstract and everything looks like baby talk increases learning in horses. But in we need to look at it in more detail because it's more about what does baby talk does to us and change the way that we interact with the horse that then makes the learning more likely for them. So it's a fascinating paper. I loved it, and it deserves its own episode. So do look out for that in the full episode. We will be going through that paper, and I will try to remember to reshare the bit of information that I shared on my socials just to give everyone a bit of a preview. Yeah, that'd be fantastic because I think we are so familiar with using tone and body language and positive affirmations to reward certain types of behaviours, like and we know that because as a species, and as a uh you know, as humans, when we go into work every day and we work really hard and we are given positive affirmations by those within our community, whether that's our peer group, our managers, our partners, and when they even are able to just speak to us and show us that we're our work is appreciated or our behavior is appreciated, that is positive reinforcement, but that doesn't necessarily translate other species that we know of. However, as Jen said, it's like there is some fabulous papers out there that show that maybe there is some kind of link, but we're gonna dive into that into another full episode and do that justice. So do keep an eye out for that. So let's just focus on what an additive. So remember, positive reinforcement is adding something positive, mathematical, so VE, like plus VE, it's the whole biologically, but it's a plus, right? So it's an adding. What is an actual tangible reward for a horse? So there's a couple of them there, Jen. Do you want to crack on? So typically, I think a lot of us know that horses love social grooming. So aloe grooming, mutual grooming, it's all the same things. So when we have friendship bonds, they will enjoy doing that. It's something positive and something that is pleasurable to them. So aloe grooming is potentially a positive reinforcement that we can use. Actually, providing social company can be positively reinforcing. Food is one that most people would understand as positive reinforcement, and as Barbara mentioned before, actually reproduction in itself is positively reinforcing because it's biological, is what the horse wants to do. Yep, there is a there's a dopamine release, of course, there is. So once we understand there are different reinforcers there, we can start thinking about different examples where these happen. So, Barbara, do you have a favorite positive reinforcement example when working with horses? You go and get your lovely horse who has chilled in the field with their buddies and sees you coming and comes up and gets a carrot at the gate. They are rewarded for coming to the gate by getting a carrot. That is the additive. You know, it's nice and simple, it's easy to understand. They are rewarded for the behavior that they performed. They came to the gate, that's the behavior. That behavior is reinforced because they got a carrot. The same as well during the like the winter months and stuff, when we're bringing in our horses, the chances are we're going to have a hard feed ready for them in the stable. They have come to associate that and learn, oh, if I come in with my owner and I go into my stable, I'll get my food. And we've seen this translate in learning across, I don't know if you've ever seen those videos where someone's corralling a load of horses in and they all find their own stables because they've learned that's where my dinner is, and they've learned, oh, there's my stable. I've come in from the field, they all come in and they seem to find their own stables because their own dinner is waiting for them. So again, they perform that behavior and they get their dinner and they will repeat that behavior. So that is just a really simple example. I think everybody understands that. The great thing for me, and when it comes to food with horses, is when we look at other species that we train with food in positive reinforcement, um, a lot of them traditionally tend to be predators. Um, so for example, tigers, lions, the old time circuses, we also do it in zoos, um, dogs are you know our predator animals and we feed them high protein food. When we actually look at our evolutionary background, the evolutionary background of those animals, they eat big, high calorie protein meals and then they go to sleep and then they don't eat very often. Horses, however, eat for like better part to 12 to 16 hours a day. That's a lot. So that's a lot of food. So small trickle feeders, we know the horses are trickle feeders, so we kind of have a really great opportunity to be able to reward them and do a lot more training with them than we necessarily would with other animals. So it's a very powerful tool. Which is I find that fascinating as to why positive reinforcement has exploded in cooperative care in zoos, like you say, with alligators, lions, tigers, polar bears. It has it is it's your main go-to in canine training now, or at least it's being promoted as. And as you say, these are carnivores, these are predators. It blows my mind that, as you just say, it doesn't fit the way that they've evolved to eat. It's not so commonplace with a herb before species. I just find it absolutely mental when we actually start thinking about what is a horse, the species in front of us, and like you said, they will eat for 16 to 18 hours a day, they will chew something ridiculous from 30,000 to 60,000 times a day, and yet it is not commonplace to work with food. It's highly motivated in the horse. And we look at, we we talked about aloe grooming, company food, and reproduction. Um, generally speaking, when we look at behaviours in in horses from an ethological perspective or any animal, we look at what behaviours have evolved to help that species survive, and usually that's the best way that we can support training because they're going to be highly motivated within that animal. We talked about us as humans, we're social species, so what's highly motivated for us to have cohesive family units, have bonds, have community. We all felt that during the years of COVID-19 and that social isolation and the impact that had on us because it was such a driven behavior for us to perform. So it's highly motivating. So when we look at horses, we have to look at going, well, what is highly motivating for them to perform as behaviours to help with their training? Now we're kind of going into a little bit of a tangent here. So where does that come into positive reinforcement? How can we utilize that to understand what is rewarding in the horse? So while we can we know that working a food is something that should be really easy and accessible forces, as we've just spoken about, why is it that it's not used and it's very confusing, very difficult? I think because it's not always well known that there needs to be a marker. We can't always provide the food at the right moment, the specific moment for when the horse has performed the certain thing. Whereas removing pressure can be, can be, can quote, easier when you're in the moment to release that pressure. However, physically providing food at this specific moment can be really tricky, and that's because the bit of information that seems to be lost in widespread information is your marker. Your marker or your bridging cue is that moment where you say yes to your horse, and it's known as you know, in clicker training, a click, so the physical clicker, you can click with your tongue, or you can use a word that you only use that word as a marker, and over time the horse will learn when they hear that sound that is associated with the food, and that is what they did correctly. That is for me is very often the bit which is missed, which can make the difference between effective and safe positive working with food. I won't even call it positive reinforcement safe working with food to confusing, frustrated working with food. So, what happens is that marker becomes a conditioned response, and the horse or any animal understands ah, that's when I'm gonna get that. It becomes associated in the horse's brain with something positive, and that bridging tool is really critical, and we do that for everything, and you'll know that as soon as you pick up a bucket, your horse goes, Oh, what's that? Because it's become a conditioned response, you know. That's a visual marker, as so to speak, you know, of hearing the feed in the bucket, seeing the bucket, and knowing that food is coming. So that's how they connect those two together because it isn't just about the basics or the mechanics of the reinforcer, but it's also the cues and the conditioning that goes around that that makes us successful in our training. So the example Barbara gave two minutes ago about you walking to the gate and the horse seeing you and then coming to the gate, the sight of you at that location is a conditioned response because over time they have learned when they see you approaching that gate, something nice happens. They're adding, you're adding something, they know there's a yummy carrot or yummy apple, something. The sight of you there is a conditioned response for that horse. So it's happening all the time. Just like negative reinforcement, this can happen even when you don't realize it's happening, or even when you don't mean it to happen. And to make you as successful as possible in your training, it's important to look and see what is actually conditioning this behaviour, what is actually marking or cueing it for a horse. And if you feel that the one doesn't exist, that's where you apply one. As Jen says, it's a yes, it's a click, it's a good boy, it's a good girl, so that you can help reduce confusion for when training your horse. Because food isn't everything, and sometimes it can lead to issues and confusion. So, in one of our previous episodes in season one, we talked about biting and positive reinforcement because there is this general maybe thought that there's a link there. And if you want to understand more about that, please go back and listen to that episode because we talk about it at length. But the summer bad audio. Yeah, I think it's our audio's gotten better, guys. It's one of our early episodes. I do apologize. But one of the takeaway points from that episode is it's not the food causing the issue. So I want to talk to you a little bit about a story about a client that I've had, and it was an initial consultation, a first ever session, and we're working with this horse, and we're doing some early, early positive reinforcement. So I'm just connecting the click to the food and getting the horse to learn. When you hear this click, food comes, and we're using using really low-value chaff, and this horse does some fantastic bite threats, it's getting really, really upset. And needless to say, we stopped that pretty quickly. So that horse in that moment was trigger-stacked. It was in a confined space, it was on a new yard, it had me, a new person. There's too much at play for that horse. He's trying to cope with everything else. And then here I am on his doorstep, trying to get him to learn something as well, just too much. So the horse had to revert back to a previously learned behavior, which was the bite behaviour to try and get me to go away, distance increasing behavior. It wasn't about the food that I was using, it wasn't about the chaff, it was about the bigger picture, and the horse was trigger-stacked. If we can see the bigger picture and address the training methods and the environment that we're in, then we can get better success. And it's important to appreciate as well that, like, although we're talking about these definitions to help understand the actual behavior and how the mechanisms are working, there are always other things underlying in maintaining the behavior, and it's important to be able to look at the whole picture. So, you know, in that example, it was environment, and Jen was able to work with it and change it to be able to support learning. There could be other underlying issues, such as medical conditions. If your horse has a sore mouth, has dental issues, maybe they have like confirmational issues like a parrot mouth, they might not be eat eat as well, they could be older, there could be other medical issues, just like with negative reinforcement. That means that the behavior is not working the same way. Also, their past experiences. If I see a lot of rescue horses who could have been food deprived at a certain point in time, and those underlying traumas and early experiences are all going to impact on how the horse is adapting and responding to the training that we're presenting. So, while these definitions are really, really helpful for us as trainers and owners, it's really important to look at the whole picture and what's maintained the behaviour we're trying to shape. So, hopefully, guys, that has brought some light to what is positive reinforcement and how it works for the horse, the differences between different species and how we ideally want to work with it. Some good reinforcing happening there with Jen's dogs. What's maintaining that behaviour, Jen? What for me or them? Them, well, yeah, this is it's great. So, yeah, why not? Let's keep this in the episode. You guys might be able to hear, well, they've stopped now actually, that Pippin, my parents' dog, is here, and every time somebody comes to the house. Oh, I love that it's the parents' dogs. It's the parents' dog. Actually, no, Bell's barking now as well. I was gonna say Belle doesn't talk to shit. Bell doesn't bark enough, my angel. Um, and when somebody's at the front door, they bark and they bark and they bark and they bark and they bark and they bark and they bark, the person leaves. Fantastic. It worked. They got the person to leave. Clever dogs, the barking behaviour worked. And actually, funnily enough, that leads me into the point I wanted to make, which is the reward has got to be rewarding to the animal. So we talk about that affirmation to humans, we find that rewarding. It doesn't mean horses find it rewarding. You can use low-calorie chaff, it doesn't mean it's rewarding to the horse. Some horses like apple, some don't. Yeah, so to guys, just to recap as well, the same with negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement involves adding something that's rewarding to that species to encourage the desired behavior. My dog likes cuddles and lap cuddles, likes eating things, likes tearing things. What is that species? What does that species like to do? The same with our horses, our horses like aloe grooming, company, food, and reproduction. Um, not suggesting you use reproduction in your training methods. But just like negative reinforcement, timing and consistency are key, just as Jen said about the marker and being able to create that associative learning, proper application of reinforcement is gonna lead to well-trained horses. If you have any questions or stories, please feel free to share with us, guys. We love getting in the comments and share this podcast with someone you think is gonna. And my last takeaway for that, guys, just is as hard as it is for us, just because we think something is positively reinforcing doesn't mean it is for the species. So if that's one thing that you take away from this, that's my biggest plea to you. As Barbara's just said, it's got to be meaningful to that animal. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. We're gonna continue on this thread. And next session we're moving on to punishment. Thanks for joining us, guys, and we'll see you in the next bonus episode. Cheers guys, bye.