“How Does Language Shape the Way We See Our Horses?”

We’re back from our summer break and kicking off a brand new season! 🎉

In this episode, we catch up on what we’ve been up to, what’s coming next for the podcast, and some of the things we’ve been reflecting on over the break.

Our main topic this week is language both the words we use when we talk about horses, and the “language” horses use to communicate with us.

We explore:

• How the language we use shapes our mindset, expectations, and welfare decisions
• The difference between describing behaviour vs. labelling the horse
• How horses communicate emotional states through posture, movement, and subtle expression
• Ways to shift from judgement to curiosity
• And how a more thoughtful vocabulary can lead to better understanding and kinder training

This is a reflective, gentle, conversation-based episode a thoughtful place to start the new season together.

We’re happy to be back. 💛

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:01

Welcome back, guys, to another season of Dangerous at Both Ends and Tricky in the Middle. I am Barbara, but you knew that already, and I am thrilled to kick off season two with the fabulous and enematic Jennifer Nash. Hi everyone, yep, it is great to be back. We have missed you and can't wait to dive into another season of insightful, hopefully, conversations. This season we've got such an exciting lineup for you guys, loads of amazing topics, everything from the complicated intrinsic connections between horse behaviour, humans, and areas to be able to help support us with our relationships with our horses. From the science of communication to practical training tips, we're going to try and cover a lot of ground to help our listeners, you guys, help to understand and connect with your horse on a deeper level, but also have a much better idea of the language and the science that we use, and hopefully make it a bit more accessible as well. But before we dive into today's topic, we've been away for a while, so I think it's only fair to have a bit of a catch-up. Hi Jen, how's your break? It's the first time I've talked to her. Um interesting, yeah. I mean, you were over for part of this, let's not let's not uh ignore that you did help me. So basically we moved and then we moved again and we drove through some floods. Um, and my parents' dog is on holiday with us for forever, and I think you can just not forever, she's gonna go home. You can hear her barking downstairs. Perfect, hi Pip. Um, how about you, Barbs? Um, yeah, so last year my horse had surgery, and this year, to break from tradition, she decided to have surgery again. Oh, I mean constantly rehab, and it's it's my life now. Um it's what I do, it's just constantly rehab horses. Um and yeah, so I say we've we've rescued a cat and um did the best we could. Sadly, we had to to to put the weak cat to sleep. Um we went away camping, that was nice. Um, got an air fryer, very excited about that. Finally, I'm so excited. Um, I am a mad woman with it though, to be fair. Um, because David the other day was like, Oh, would you like to do some beans and you know, bangers and mash and stuff for dinner, like mashed potato sausages and beans, and he was like, Oh, I can do the sausages in the air fryer. So I was like, Can we put the beans in the air fryer? Exactly. He's just like, stop it, you can't. And last night, I I kid you not, last night, last night I was messing around with it, uh, and I I blew the fuses, so the whole house was he assured me it was barber proof, and you had to test that theory. Obviously, you're scientists, so you had to test that. Um that's enough humanizing, I think. Um well, on that bombshell, um, we'd also love to hear how you guys have all been doing during our break. So feel free to reach out to us on social media or through our websites, share your stories. Has anything happened during this break that you would love us to actually make an episode topic? Yeah, we love your feedback and your stories are always welcome. You know, have you plunged your house into utter darkness because you blew a fuse? Do you have an air fryer? Um, no, try and keep it more on topic. I mean, I'd love to hear them. Uh, by all means, email me your mad stories because I do enjoy them, uh, knowing that I'm not alone. But anything that is horse or behaviour related, any challenges you've had over the break, absolutely, please do send it on to us and we'll see if we can address those in the following podcast. So, um, are you ready to get started, Jen? Sure am how professional we are in season two, Jen. We have sections now. We didn't have that in season one. You're welcome, everyone. So, today, what are we talking about? Well, we want to talk about why language matters. So, this is a fantastic topic about not only the language that we communicate with ourselves and other people, but also the language that we communicate with our horse. We're gonna explore how the words we use affect not just our communication with others around us, but also the interactions with our horse and even a part of the research and behavioural science known as self-talk, which is critical for our own mental health, well-being, and success. That's right, the language that we use can shape our perceptions, emotions, and our relationships, whether that be with our horses or with our other humans in our lives. It's a powerful tool that can influence our behaviour and the behavior of those around us, including our horses, but it is that means that we also need to be careful of how we're thinking and feeling because we might be influencing ourselves negatively and by default our horses without even realizing it. So today we're going to be discussing some intriguing research, not just in equine behavior and animal behavior that we draw into these episodes, but also in human behavioral science, which actually really is how psychology and behavioral science within animals started. A lot of what we understand about behavioral science started with human science. So there's a lot of benefit in being able to look at those papers and bring it into our relationship with our horse. These papers dive into the relationship between language, the perception, and emotion between us and our horses. And this research helps us understand how the words we use impact how we feel and how those feelings are interpreted by those around us, including our horses. Yeah, so we're gonna tie all this back to our own interactions with our horses. So, just like people, the way we communicate with our horses can significantly affect their behaviour and for lack of a better word, essentially the bond we have with them. So it's one of these underlying things that's happening all the time that's possibly overlooked, but could be a big trigger between having a good partnership with your horse and a not so great one. To start off, we're going to look at some of the research. So, one of the key bits of research studies the relationship between the language and emotional perception, as we've alluded to already. There's several key studies that highlight how the words we use can influence the emotional experience and how we perceive emotions in others. So, study one, the language and perception of emotion, is just all about how if the body language, so it's an overview of three studies, so it's a lit review of three studies, which have all come together to the similar conclusion that if your body language and your facial expressions don't match the emotion in the words, it makes people less likely to understand and makes it harder for them to predict what's happening. So the implications of these findings show that to have the best ability to understand humans, facial correct emotion with the words means people understand things quicker. So if you have somebody saying something negative but they're giving a happy face, that's confusing, and vice versa. So if you have the face that's depicting anger, but the words are happy, again, it was harder for people to categorize what the overall meaning was. They were much more likely to be correct when the words matched the facial features. Yeah, it's so interesting, Jen, because like, and I think okay, we're gonna dive into how the sausage is made here a little bit, but I think it's really important to understand that, like, you know, obviously Jen's in Cheshire and I'm in Ireland, so we're doing this podcast virtually. But one of the things that's really, really important, and we discovered was so important for us when we were recording is to make sure that we had our webcamers on at the same time to be able to have these conversations because otherwise we can't see and understand where we're going, and it isn't as seamless. So having the web cameras on and being able to see our emotional state is emotional state, is that correct? You know, like I should say, whether you're you know, like your face is depicting what you're actually saying in the words, and if we're on track and stuff, I also also know when I go off on a waffle because I can see it on Jen's face, she doesn't need to say anything, so we can we can learn very quickly how we we can develop the podcast, but it's so important for us, um, and I think again it's something that we appreciated and understood during the years of COVID when we were working from home. How important having the camera on, being able to have those conversations with people to be able to support and communicate faster, how critical that was. Yeah, I think it's it's really interesting because how many times have you read an email or text message? Oh, do you know what? Actually, dating, early days dating, texting, and not and not knowing what the other person is meaning. And if if Done on my other half is listening, he's gonna be going, Yep, yep. Because funness is a funny story, right? So the word sound, I'll be the judge of that. The word sound, you hopefully you'll agree. Um your side of the water is very much like a yeah, cool sound, yeah, no worries. For me, I've grown up sound being really sarky, like, yeah, sound, whatever. Yeah, so Donald used to reply to messages being like, Oh, I know I might have messed him messaged him and saying, I'm gonna do this, do you fancy it, whatever, or whatever, and I would get sound thumbs up, yeah, and that started arguments because I was just like, What's of your tone? And then he'd be like, What do you mean, what's of my tone? I'm like, Why are you being so sarcastic? And he's I'm not being sarcastic, everything's fine. I'm like, if there's something wrong, just tell me that there's something wrong. And from just a misunderstanding, perception, if that had been a face-to-face thing, I would have seen him say sound with a happy face, everything would be understood, but it was just a word, so that we had that missed perception and missed understanding. And what happens when a cross is really Aggie in this, like you're like, What are the tones? Oh, yeah, I was Aggie 100%. I was completely on the back foot, which is kind of what my next point is. When we have miscommunication, nobody feels good. I think we can bring that straight back to the horses. That whenever there's miscommunication, and I feel like a lot of people will understand this, you know what you mean, the horse doesn't, the horse might know what it means, and when you have that clash, we get tension, and people get defensive, the horse gets defensive, and now we have conflict. So when we don't have clear communication both ways, the result is confusion and conflict. And I suppose, like, I I haven't read the papers, but I would hypothesize that anger and fear and stressful hormones uh stressful emotions are probably picked up on faster than other emotional states because there's a survival mechanism involved. So if you can't understand what someone else is saying, you're probably more likely to feed into either fear, anger, and stress because you need that cortisol, you need to be able to go, okay, do I need to run here? Is it a fight or flight situation? Oh, yeah. Because that's probably more important. Now, again, I I'm just hypothesis in there, this isn't necessarily directly from the research, but just an educated guesstimation that that would be the go-to, particularly for our horses, because better off get out of dodge than stick around to find out. Oh, yeah, because curiosity killed the cat. You know, that that saying is there for a reason. When you stick around in an unsure situation, there's a possibility that the tiger is going to jump out of the bush, and you know, that that puddle that you're thinking about is deep is actually 10 metres deep and you're going to drown. It's always safer to get out of Dodge and then come back and reassess it rather than to stick around. So curiosity is not something that comes naturally, particularly to a prey animal, because curiosity is dangerous, you have to get out of there quickly. Um, another tangent. I absolutely love uh listening to human psychology podcasts, particularly with ex-CIA or intelligence officers, and they talk about how they read human body language to assess for well, even when they're doing a polygraph, because people can, you know, they're really good, they can they can um get through a polygraph, but it's looking at those ticks and reading the body language, and one of the things they always say is when the conversation doesn't make sense, when people are tripping up, when bits of information are starting to conflict with each other, very often that is a lie, and you get then get the heart rate and everything else because they're understanding. So, again, it's where you have conflict of communication because if the person's lying, they're trying to keep track of all their lies and keep the story straight, but they're getting in conflict with themselves, and then it starts showing physiologically through heart rate, sweat, blood pressure, and then this is what you know these interrogators are picking up on. But if you think about horses are masters of body language to survive, they're reading all of this as well. So we know it's a human phenomenon that when we get stressed and when we're not sure, even when we're worried, it's coming out of our bodies in multiple forms, whether we like it or not. And we we don't know, like there's there's I know there's lots of myths about you know horses being able to hear heart rate because it's quite a tangible aspect and are they reacting to that, but it's something that we actually just don't know. We do know that there's some kind of decoupling of you know, because the research has shown us that with various studies for startle tests and anticipation, where humans have been told you know, go and hand walk this horse in an arena, and that person over there is gonna open an umbrella, and the person is anticipating, and we've seen that there's a change in the horse's behavior, regardless of whether the umbrella is opened or not. So sometimes the umbrella was opened, sometimes it wasn't, and we did see this sort of mirroring mirroring, but however, why that is happening is very much an unknown because we just don't have the research that's there. However, the studies in human psychology and other animal behaviors would indicate that there's other body language communication happening at some level we got like and we just don't know what that connection is. So this these research this research goes a little bit into the way of explaining that you know, that if communication for us as humans and bodily communication and movement is so critical for us to communicate, we're doing it without even realizing it. And horses are masters of body languages, the chances are that they have learned to pick up on some of these movements and behaviours without us even wanting them to or knowing that it's happening. Undoubtedly, I think that's a thing, which leads lovely into our second study. Um, and again, these studies that we're talking about right now are focused on human science. So, study two was talking about how the it's the emotion expression and brain function. So, this one was by Kotz and Polman in 2011, and the summary of it is that it talks about how it doesn't matter how if you're talking to yourself out loud or non-verbally, that that self-talk is happening and involves very complex brain functions, and it's going to be shown regardless. So, these the way that you're talking to yourself on the inside or verbally, those expressions are coming through your body, and emotional language is coming through, and people were able to assess it from the outside. So even if you're not saying the words out loud, even other humans can perceive if somebody's talking to themselves and thinking negative thoughts because it's showing in their body, in their body language. And we know from other research, and I'm going to kick myself because I did share on my page, but we know that the way you approach a horse, so the way you walk up to them and the way that you move your body does affect their behavioral response towards you. So these papers are all starting to talk to each other and agree with that we as humans are seeing this between human and human, and other animals, other species, including horses, are also seeing these things as well. And and bear in mind, some of these papers are 13, 14 years old. So this is and they're really well established. They're onto lit review. So we've been at this for a while, and I think everybody can remember that time if you're deep in your own thoughts and you're you know walking through the house or you're in work or you're in school or whatever it happens to be, and a friend interrupts you and goes, like, you know, is everything okay? You know, why are they asking that question when you haven't said anything verbally because they're picking up on the non-verbal? You're having that stressful conversation with yourself in your head, oh, I've got all this stuff to do, I've got this, that, and the other. You're deep in those thoughts, you're having that self-salt talk conversation, and someone else recognizes that in your body language and asks you, is everything okay? You know, or it's happened where you're thinking of a funny story that happens all the time with Jay because he's just sniggering away to himself sometimes, you know, about something that he's seen or he's thinking about, and I'm like, Oh, what is it? Because I want in on the joke. I can see that he's amused by something or there's something else happening, but he hasn't said anything, he's in his own self-talk. Um, so that non-verbal communication just translates to other people around us all the time. Yeah, and it's so powerful. So I'm gonna jump onto study number three here. Um, so it's Ling Lindquist et al. The team stayed together, they did some more research. So the first paper was in 2006, and this one's in 2015. So we're becoming a little bit more recent, and this one talks about the fact that the language that we use plays a crucial role in shaping our emotional experiences. So when you the language that you use, when you talk about an experience that something's happened to you, how you describe it and how you communicate it, will actually have an effect on how that then registers with your brain and how that sits into your memory. So, what this study is talking about is how we talk about out to ourselves and to those around us, say there's an experience that you found quite frightening. If you were to just blame your horse and just go, the horse is a dick, the horse ditched me, it was just one of those days, rah-rah, rah, and blame the horse, or blame your trainer, or blame the environment, or blame the weather, that's not actually going to be helpful for how you process that traumatic experience. What this paper has shown, that it's the role of emotional words in how and in how the brain copes with emotion. So the paper suggests that the emotional words help us process emotions in a more refined and contextual way. So that means the brain can process that trauma more easily and we can come to more succinct conclusions about it. So if we don't use these emotional words, it makes the emotional experience more ambiguous in our memory. So is it I'm now scared of my horse, the weather, the arena? Whereas if you were to discuss that in that interaction with a confidant, whether it's your coach, your parent, your best friend, or even just saying it to your horse in the stable, I found that really scary. When my horse bucked, that made me feel scared. I feel really sad. Identify the emotions in the context that they happened will actually help us through that scary situation, it helps the brain understand it more clearly. And what I find interesting is like that this paper showed that, like, you know, obviously, like we talked about got negative emotions there, but it works the same way for positive emotional states. So even in that situation where your horse booked or you came off and it was scary, you know, actually having a positive emotional state in there can help redefine that raw emotions, as Jen says, that trauma. So, you know, if your horse booked and you came off, but then the horse stood and came back to you, or waited until you were able to go and get them again and bring them back into the stable. You be if you change that and say, you know, they were so good, you know, they waited for me, you know, they were able to, you know, find that challenging situation and come back down again. I'm really proud of them. I'm I was able to do that. But changing that small part, finding that one part of that positive words and that positive emotional state can really help your fear and trauma from the fall into the next situation to help you action it in a in a more positive way. Absolutely. And I think the key, the key one there is when you added in and I'm proud. So that's your you're stating, you're verbalizing your feelings. So you're identifying the horse to this and this and this. How did that make me feel? And like you say, if we're trying to then take a negative situation but spin it into our heads into a positive so we can keep going and you know, enjoy our horse for longer, there is always a benefit to be found somewhere. So I have a client that I've worked with for a good a good while, a good few years. Um, and you know, recently a couple of months ago, um, we had an accident where you know we actually did. Fall and it was amazing to see the resilience in this client because her emotional state was, Oh, wasn't my horse so good? She just waited, you know, and she was a you know, I was able to get back up and she didn't react to that situation. Her takeaway wasn't, you know, oh the brash, you know, I fell, oh this happened. Her takeaway was, I'm so proud of my horse for waiting and stopping. I'm so proud of my horse for even though that was a scary situation. So not only did this client empathize with her horse's emotional state, she also recognised what happened and was proud of everyone in that state, and as a result, was able to get back up on her horse, action actually the issue that happened, resolve the issue, get back on her horse, and be able to proceed again. And I do think that that's a credit to her and how she perceived everything that happened and how she provided that self-talk to herself in that challenging situation. Yeah, I think I think it's a skill in itself that we have to practice, and what's one of the reasons I love all these studies together is if we take that example of your client and they're I they're able to identify the positives, we've already seen from the previous studies that the way that we think and the way that we talk affects our body language and how we move. We already know that horses are able to identify facial features and how we approach them. That is now a de-escalated situation where that owner is able to approach their horse in a much calmer and friendlier manner, and the horse can be calmer and then potentially they get back on or they walk out of the arena safely. If that had been different, and the owner is naming and identifying all the awful things, they're now angry, you know, saying expletives towards the horse, that horse is gonna well probably won't stand to get mounted, and as soon as they get back in the saddle, it's now an even more heightened situation, it's not safe. So the way we talk to ourselves and identify our emotions in situations is having an impact of how safe we are with our horses. Lastly, we have research that also indicates that language doesn't just communicate emotions but also helps us construct them. So emotions that are categorized and understood through language, I say I'm really proud of my horse, that was she was so good, they were really good, he stopped and he waited for me, really helps us make sense of our sensory experiences. So we're able to feel positive in that environmental space. And I know I say task person environment a lot, but that is really important because the context of you know, I came off in the forest in the arena, my horse bolted on the road, we become connected with those sensory experiences, or if it was a rainy day, you know. I am particularly I had a rotation when I was 15, and you know, it was a very damp rainy day, and the ground was quite boggy. I had took me a long time to be able to process that emotion because it was I wasn't able to do it at the time, I was 15. But whenever it gets into that environment, I'm right back there, and you will see I'm a lot more anxious riding my horse because of those sensory experiences, and because I wasn't able to use that language at the time and find that supportive one, and it's taken years to be able to get to a point where I can. But if there's any kind of fog or damp in the air and the ground is boggy, you will see that I'm a lot more anxious as a result of those connections. And I think it's so important to identify that this is happening for us, and we know this is happening for us as humans. Just because we don't have the evidence to show it's happening for horses and other animals doesn't mean it's not happening. We do know that horses are very contextual learners and are can be very influenced by the environment, the weather is an environment as well, so there's every opportunity that this is happening for our horses as well. So being aware of their learning during hours is a lot of responsibility on our shoulders, but again, it can make the difference between making good decisions for you and your horse and risky ones. I just wanted to add in that last study that we talked about was by Richards in 2020, and all the studies that we've discussed, we will add links to the papers in the show notes for further reading if you want to go and have a look at any of those yourself. So, just to recap that section, guys, these studies collectively suggest that language is such a powerful tool in shaping our emotional world. It doesn't just help us communicate our feelings but also influences how we perceive the experiences and emotions of everything around us. So, by understanding this can improve our interactions with others, whether that's family members, friends, fellow horse owners in the yard, and it can help us become more empathetic and effective communicators to those people, to horses, and ourselves. And then I think we can dive into segment or section two, and that is speaking to our horses. It's about time we spoke about our horses. Okay, so let's transition into how this research and language and emotional perception can apply to our interaction with our horses, because that's why you came here, guys. So, just like humans, horses are highly sensitive to the tone and content of our communication. Exactly. The words we use, the tone of our voice, our body language, it all plays such a significant role in how horses respond to us. I mean, we've alluded to this already in our previous bits of conversation. We know that they can pick up on subtle cues and emotions which influence their behaviour. And our, you know, I don't like the word relationship, but yeah, our partnership, our interactions with them. Well, I suppose I know what you mean. Like there's words, we're talking about words, so we might as well dive into a little bit of this just briefly. You know, things like trust, bond, relationship, they're very human-centric words. However, I I I used to rail against them quite a lot. Now, now that I understand a lot more about human psychology, um, I say used to, oh my god, like 15 years ago. Um, you know, it's an Irish used to. Um the other day, yes, an Irish other day, the Scottish other day, and then the Z other day other day. Um, yeah, it's an argument me and Jen got into. Um, so you have these words which we know are important for humans, and we know that they connect our emotional state to our body language. We've we've discussed that. So if you are if you see in your mind and your non-verbal communication, if you see that word as trust, or you see that word as relationship, if you see that word as bond with your horse, then that is going to reflect how you interact with your horse. If you because it creates empathy, right? So that's why I'm like, I'm actually okay with that these days. Um because although I realize they feel like such loaded terms when it's a living, breathing creature, you know, um, we talk about things like um collaboration and cooperation, whereas in reality, horses aren't necessarily in a collaborative relationship with us because they don't have the same say that say you and I are doing a collaboration on this, there's no con, you know, we compromise, we we adapt the structure of this podcast, you know, together. There isn't the same thing with horses, however, if you non-verbally feel that way about your relationship with a horse, then are you more likely to give them more say in what's happening? If you feel like it is a relationship, are you more likely to scratch your horse in a place that they really enjoy because it makes them feel good and you see that as a positive relationship? So yeah, I I get what you mean about relationship, but I wonder is that actually a positive for us and how we feel about our horses and how we communicate verbally and non-verbally to our horses, yeah, and and it's it's funny you say that because there's still certain words that I arc against, but then there's a new awareness. So I'm sure people might have been aware that it's still a thing at the minute, but it was quite big a year or two ago that there was this big movement to not anthropomorphise horses when we're describing them, so not to not call them angry or sad or happy or excited because those are human emotions and we don't know that they experience them. And if we label a behavior wrong with emotion, we can completely get it wrong and train incorrectly, and there is merit to not labeling behaviors with emotion, absolutely, there is merit to it. On the other side, anthropomorphism is one of the easiest ways for humans to understand. So if the labelling is correct, it's one of the easiest ways for us to understand and for us to communicate human to human what's going on. So if I'm talking to a client and I said, Oh, the horse is in an active effective state, they are experiencing adverse pressure and stimuli. That sentence doesn't make much sense if you don't know what that language means. Whereas I can say that horse isn't feeling completely comfortable, you know, the presence of us being here is making them feel uncomfortable, it is pressure on them, and they would like to leave the situation, is much more accessible language. Um, and that's a little bit of a tangent, but it is it's all about that we use. I think it's so important because like um the word anthromorphism, right? You know, obviously, like you know, talks to you know, as I say, as Jen says, like human emotions and all the rest of it. It's like, oh, we can't apply them to animals. And my argument is always, but we are also animals, yes. So we are also animals and mammalian species. Um, so I'm like, I yeah, like and and I've been accused of over the years, like you know, so even as far as my undergraduates, it's like, oh, you're anthemorphising. Um, and it's really interesting because some of the things that it would have been like, oh, you're anthemorphising that emotional state, we've actually studied more and we realize that they understand those those emotions. Um so I think when it comes to actually understanding and communicating language about our horses, you know, they're happy, they're sad, they're feeling stressed, whatever it happens to be. You know, as long as we all understand each other and we're able to communicate as humans, if we are trying to explain the state that our horse is in, then it I think that's the most thing, that's the most important thing that that happens rather than being overly pedantic about the type of words we use. Um, you know, Jen explained it there as well. Like we talk about a lot of people would refer to negative reinforcement, and you know, that'll be coming up in our bonus episodes as well. We've done a couple of little bite slides to break that down, so go and check those out. We talk about negative reinforcement, which is the scientifically empirical way of describing that learning process, but a lot of people would refer to it as depression release, it aids putting your leg on, you know, they're all terms that mean the same thing, and sometimes I feel like you know, forcing people to use the word that you're familiar with with is a type of gatekeeping, whereas like recognizing us in them, and as long as we all understand what we're talking about and we're able to apply that you know ethically to our horses and communicate with each other, then crack on. Yeah, and I think it's really important as you're saying about perception. So if we you know think about that horse I was talking about there, um if we were to stand there looking at that horse, giving us grisly faces over the stable door and nip threats in the air, if we stood there and described that horse as being pissed off and grumpy and arsy, and oh, it's a biter, everyone's guard's gonna get up. And when you walk towards that stable door, everyone's gone, oh, and we're ready for a fight. You might be scared or you might be ready for a fight, but we we've painted the picture as one of conflict. Whereas if we stand there and go, hey, look, this horse is having a really hard time and we're causing it, you know. There that behavior that we're seeing is that insecurity and that feeling of not being safe, and that horse is expressing itself in a way that is saying, Don't come closer because I don't feel safe. Now we can as you just said, Barbara, empathy. Empathy has just been created by the words that we use, and that will now impact how we approach and how we train that horse and the methods and how we train that horse. Um, so that the imp the impact on language and horses is is massive. So I love that you said grumpy, Jen. Okay, so that this is such a great word because you know, being like, oh god, this is so grumpy. The difference that empathy adds to that situation is we've all been hangry, we've all been grumpy, we've all felt that irritated feeling. When we have empathy, we go, okay, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed, I'm feeling really crap today, I'm really grumpy, I'm really hangry because you know I didn't sleep well the night before, I've got a lot of stuff going on. When we empathize with what's happening and we understand what's happening, we approach a situation totally different. So when we look at a horse who's, as you say, given the grumpy face over the stable door and the ears are back, as Jen says, we approach it with like, okay, you're having a hard time. What what's what is it that you know, why are you having a hard time? You know, we approach it in those ways, then our approach towards that horse and how we interact with them is gonna be very different than not when we don't have empathy, and how our body language is the way we go into the stable, how we bring them out of the stable, how we handle them is gonna all impact on that. And I would say it's like you know, if we flip into a different situation, if we had a horse where we know there was a known injury, you know, I spoke about my endless uh surgery at the moment. It's a constant, um, you know, then I know that my horse is currently, you know, we've just had the stitches out, there's a bandage on, it's a little, it's gonna be sore, it's surgery, right? You know, that that's it's gonna be sore. So how I go in and put the the head collar on and move her out of the stable so I can muck out and clean things out, it's gonna be a lot gentler than if I had a sound horse because I'm already empathizing and thinking, okay, well, I know that that leg is X, Y, and Z. Now that's without you know, that's subconscious. Um, you know, don't go and shove around the stable which she's sound, but it's just to kind of give you a context. When someone is ill or sick, we automatically go, Oh, I know how that feels to be sore and sick, so we approach things differently. Yeah, and actually, this is touching on something that we do struggle on with humans, is mental health is an injury that you can't see, and how many of our horses are struggling mentally, but we treat them as if there's nothing physically wrong with you, so I'm going to treat you as if you're a horse who's behaving badly because they want to. But we see this, we know that mental health services for humans is not as it should be, and we can be very guilty of treating somebody. We lose empathy because mental health, as I say, is something you can't physically see. Whereas if you're walking down the street and you see somebody in a wheelchair or you see somebody with crutches because they've broken their leg or they're just out of surgery, you will automatically be more empathetic because you can physically see the issue. But so often with horses, they're masters of of disguising their issues, their ailments for survival, so we automatically lose empathy. Hidden disabilities, you know, are hidden. Any medical issue is incredibly hard for us to have empathy with unless we have been in that situation. Um, and it and as we alluded to earlier, it takes practice to learn how to do that and to have empathy, even if you haven't had that lived experience. Um and that's really challenging. That's that's the human condition. So, for instance, if we're kind of considering a situation where a horse is nervous, we we've talked about grumpy faces, they're nervous or anxious, so we have a high head carriage, we've wiped to the eyes. What do we all do, you know, in that situation? You know, it's okay, it's alright, don't worry, you know, I've got you, like, it's okay, I'm over here. We immediately revert to that because we recognize the anxiety um and we we understand that the horse is calm or and needs calming, and we we adopt a calm, soothing tone. We we try and have a gentle, reassuring tone to help support that horse. Our body language will change. The words that we say are are gonna be it's okay, don't worry. And and why does that work? Why do we think that's gonna work? Like, you know, and and it's because we know that horses learn our body language, connect with those words, you know, and we have research that shows that like horses will sort of not lead is the wrong word that I want to use, but like uh trust is the wrong word too. I'm gonna go for it, you know, reliable leaders. So if they're very anxious in that situation and we go, it's okay, don't worry, it's all right, you don't need to go near the scary plastic bag, we're gonna go over here instead. And you take them away from it, and then you give them a scratch, or you give them a bit of grass, or bring them down, then they can go, oh okay. When my human made those noises and their body language looked like that, they made a good decision for me, which was to remove me from the scary plastic bag, and I got a scratch. So they're all connecting all of those things. So that's how we're able to support them in that situation. I'm just gonna caveat that in a small way because I completely agree, but what I also see is people who are not feeling calm in the slightest, and they're going, it's okay, it's okay. And the and do you remember the conversation we had right at the start where your words and your body language don't match? Because you've also gone out of threshold, you're also not in your safety zone, and the horse can tell. The horse knows that you're lying to yourself, um, or you're actually quite a quiet person and you don't talk to your horse very often, and now suddenly you're talking to your horse, the horse will identify the difference and the change in your body language. And now my human has changed. I'm worried, and my human has changed. I don't like change, I can't, I can't. What's the word? Um not consistency, so I'm sorry, reliability. The horse can't um reliably read, yeah. What's the word I'm looking forward to consequences of like what's gonna happen next? Oh, what's the word then? Thank you. Predictability, yeah. The horse can't predict what's gonna happen next. Um so that's why. So Barbara just said there about making good choices, being a reliable leader. That's why doing training sessions and being very gradual. Well, shaping, and the shaping is gonna be one of our uh bonus episodes, so listen out for that one. Putting yourself through different thresholds and being used to going outside your comfort zone together and making good decisions for your horse will then make the horse go, oh, I've seen this behavior in my person before, I can see a change, but usually when I listen, it's a good result. Does that make sense? Yeah, and it all comes down to operate condition, like so many of these connect together as well, guys. Um, and you know, on that note as well, when you know, and saying our non-verbal communication doesn't match our verbal communication, and as Jen says, is like we're feeling very anxious, but we're going, it's okay, we'll be fine, it'll be alright, you know. But you know, we're saying it, but it doesn't match what's actually happening with our tone and our body language, and we're gonna get into that in in a few sections time. That's actually a type of self-talk where we're trying to convince ourselves that it's gonna be okay. So we're we're we're applying those words not necessarily for the horse, but for ourselves, and that's a whole concept of self-talk that we're gonna get into um in another few sections. So the next example we wanted to talk about when we used language effectively of horses is when we're giving commands and making sure that when we are giving commands, there's clarity and consistency in the language that we use. So when we have clarity and consistency, it means the horse has a better ability to understand what's expected of them, and we're reducing that risk of confusion. And it's funny we were talking about relationship and trust in the word like command as well. Like, you know, it's very authoritarian, you know, it's very much like I want you to. Do this, but in this context, we're asking our horses, yeah, I want you to do this, so yeah, again, it's about that communication piece, like we all understand what's happening here. For example, you know, when I'm going walk on, like I you know, that that is it's like this is what is happening. You want your horse to walk forward, you want your horse to step forward and prevent confusion. If I said walk on and then stood still, you know, we're confusing our horse. So we we really want to make those consistent for our horse so that it reduces confusion and supports our our learning. Yeah, I mean, I think a great example is there is a I don't know, a tendency, a fashion, whatever. There's no right or wrong in this, I'm not judging the slightest. But some people like to whistle to make their horse halt, okay, which is fine. This taught command that when you whistle the horse either approaches you or halt. You'll see in a lot of stunt riders and stuff like this, because it's they need a very easy, quick command to get all these horses at liberty to either stop or come towards them. Absolutely fine, it's a talk cue. If I then tried to do that and I walked in with those horses and I started walking around going, whoa, woohoo, and stand the the horses wouldn't respond because that's not how they've been trained, that's not what they understand. And then just hypothetically, I took one of those horses that had been taught to stop on a whistle, and now I start getting arsy with that horse and pulling on the bit or the lead rope and being like, okay, stop, stop. It's not fair on the horse because I've just removed clarity, consistency in the language. So I've I've created conflict. So when we're we're training our horses, especially when they're young horses, pick the language and the tone that's going to suit you, and just make sure you stick by it. Because if you want your you're teaching your horse walk, trot, and stop, for example, baby steps, you can't one day be like walk on and then teach that for a week, and two weeks later you want to teach come on, come on. Well, which one is it? Which one means walk? And now the horse doesn't know what they do, and they get worried and they bomb off and canter. Whose fault was that? To me, it wasn't the horse's fault. We changed the language. Yeah, it's so we often talk, and I see this you know in different circles as well about like the button to do this, you know, it's something that people refer to or like aims for various things. The horse doesn't innately understand any of those. They're all taught responses, they don't speak English, and we when we teach them words, we have to clearly teach what they are and keep them consistent, you know, keep keep everything consistent to reduce confusion and help that communication piece. So, like one example, for example, I see this like good boy, good girl, that's brilliant, well done. Yes, the tone, and we're happy about it, it supports it, but how we can again they don't necessarily they don't understand a good job, they don't understand a good girl unless it's paired with something that creates positive reinforcement, you know. And again, look out for that in our bonus episodes. So, although there's the verbal and the non-verbal is there, and they'll connect to those together. If we apply positive reinforcement in that situation, then we're gonna make that more powerful and it'll sustain it. So, you know, we're happy with something that our horses have done, and we're you know, we're like good boy, it's amazing, well done, great job, and we give them a wither scratch. The horse is connecting those together for more powerful learning. And even if you don't use positive reinforcement, it can still happen. So if you're saying, you know, you're riding, you're just gonna jump and you go, Oh, good boy, good girl, and you go into light seat, reach your hand forwards, give them a scratch or a pat, ideally a scratch. We know horses prefer scratches to pats. You're taking the pressure off their back, you're taking pressure off whatever exercise you're doing, and you're taking pressure off their mouth, so you are releasing the pressure from what you're doing and giving them a moment of rest. So there's still that association between this human action takes the pressure off of me. Now, that is going to give them some level of reinforcement that they've done the right thing. If you can, positive reinforcement will be more powerful. But we talk about that in our short episodes. Look out for those in the bonus episodes. So, just to summarize that section, guys, by understanding the language research on language and emotional perceptions, we can apply these insights to improve our communication with our horses. And it's just about being mindful of not just what we say but how we say it and the empathy I would add to those emotions, having an empathetical state for our horses. And by using this approach, it will help us to become safer, more successful with our horses and more confident within ourselves. Because when we have more reliability, clarity, and consistency, that is where we get feelings of safety and confidence. So making training and everyday interactions more effective and enjoyable is doable if we keep all of this in mind and we adhere to it. So, just for our last section, guys, I alluded to already, we're gonna talk about the theory and the science behind self-talk. Okay, so next we're gonna discuss the impact of self-talk on human behavior. Now, this is actually really important for our horses as well because how we talk to ourselves will impact how we train our horses and also how we perform in competition settings or in our training. So, self-talk is kind of that internal dialogue that we're having with ourselves. We talked about that earlier about that non-verbal communication and the things that we say to ourselves, um, and it can really influence our emotions and our mindset as well as our actions. So, one example, and as horse riders, we're we are um horse trainers, we we tend to be very judgmental about our own ability. I think that's that's fair to say. Um, how many of us have ridden a dressage test or ridden our horses and our brain is going, I was shite? That was awful. How terrible was I? What was I doing? What was my lower leg doing? I enjoy quite uh doing a chicken wing. I have a little I have a little airplane, don't I, Jen? Particularly in the canter, it it it's extra aerodynamic, so my right arm always goes up. It's all those Ryanair flights, yeah, just just out in the canter. Um, you know, and I in a positive way call it my chicken wing, and I laugh at it, and I kind of go, Oh yeah, that's just me, okay. You know, who cares? Um, I kind of enjoy it, I find it's an endearing quality. Um, and I often enjoy taking photos or stills of when I'm jumping or doing something, and both arms are going because I'm like, I'm giving that jump extra aerodynamics, and I enjoy it, and it makes me feel positive about that rather than the negative self-talk, which would be like, Oh, you dozy cow, what do you do? You look stupid. That is gonna affect my performance and make me feel just you know, it's a negative mindset, and it doesn't help me improve in that moment. So, how we talk to ourselves about what we're actually doing in our training is really really important. I love that example because it is a perfect example of how positive self-talk can boost your confidence and most importantly, resilience. Whereas if you were negative about yourself in that situation, it could undermine your self-esteem and lead to stress and anxiety. But like you said, you're identifying it as a personal quality, but you're not you're not disregarding that it's something that needs to be worked on. You're making a laugh and a joke about it because you're identifying that it's there, but you're not completely, you're not saying, Oh, I never you didn't you've said it yourself to improve. You know it's there, it's something you can work on, but you're approaching it from a positive point of view so you can talk about it. If we were to identify flaws in ourselves and speak negatively about them, and like you said, you dozy cow and all this jazz, you're far less likely to seek help and want to do anything about it. You know, whenever we we identify flaws in ourselves and think so negatively of ourselves, then we want to hide, we want to become reclused, we don't want to share and that self-talk there right straight away, even in example one, we're isolating ourselves. Whereas we can identify flaws, speak about them positively. That doesn't mean that you're negatively saying, sorry, it doesn't mean that you're saying that that flaw is a good thing, and we should all hope to do that for just for the sake of an example. Say you always tripped over on a bit of the track on the way to the field. You can laugh about that and you know, identify it as something, but you know yourself, why do I keep tripping? Um, maybe I should go to the physio, maybe I should work on my balance, maybe my ankle is kind of needing a bit of help, and you can talk about your friend, like, oh for God's sake, like I keep tripping over there, one day it'll be a holiday. Do you know make a joke out of it? If you were to sit there and talk negatively about yourself, you're less likely to go and make that call to the physio and get it seen too. And also be able to use the supportive networks that are around you. Um, so you know, if you're feeling like you rode that dressage test and you're like, oh my god, my sitting trot down the center line, oh it's awful, God, I'm so terrible, like, you know, um, God, I just look like a walrus doing it. I can't even do this, you know. What's my hand doing? All of that negative self-talk makes you more reclusive because you feel that everyone is having the same conversation about you. Chances are they haven't even noticed and think you're doing a great job. And then when someone turns around and goes, That was brilliant, you know, it's just a great dress dressage test, you feel like they're almost lying to you, even though their verbal and and non-verbal communication says you did a fantastic job, and it's communicating that because you have that negative self-talk, you're sitting there going, I don't believe them. You're not you're not able to hear it, you know. Whereas if you even were able to reflect and go, like, you know, I'm saying I'm really proud, that's our first show in ages. You know, I really need to work on my sitting trot, just my balance isn't as good as I I could like it, but really happy with my 20-meter circle. I managed to pick it up a little bit, and the person who's being positive back to you and go, you know, going, Oh, I didn't even notice that. And you're like, Really? It's like, yeah, yeah, no, you were doing great. It's such a different communication piece, you know, or they might be able to approach and go, you know, like, oh no, actually, like your sit and trot wasn't too bad. The only thing I would say is like this, that and the other. Oh, really? Great, it's improvement, it's processing, it's helping you become better. Yeah, and the way this relates back to our horses is if we have self-talk again, you're walking down to the field to get your horse, and you've decided that you're going to ride in the arena, but there's a scary corner. Let's be honest, every arena has a scary corner, and you're already telling yourself, Oh, it's a bit windy today. Oh no, they're gonna they're gonna spook in that corner, there's gonna be something there, and you're creating you're visualizing whether you want to get into visualizations or not, and you're talking to yourself and you're using negative language about oh, I'm not able to ride the horse to that corner, I'll cut that that half of the arena off. Um, oh, I wanted to do this, oh that looks fun. Other liveries have put poles out, that looks fun, I can't do that. Oh, they've put those poles up that end of the arena, I can't do that, my horse will do this, and that self-talk, you're setting yourself up to be in a defensive mindset. Remember, we talked about identifying those emotions, you're probably playing off a previous experience, it's all interlocking, and what do we know out of all of this is what we're thinking and feeling the horse is reading. I love that example with the scary corner. We all have a scary corner, and um, you know, we know that environment task, person, and contextual learning happens. We've talked about that before, both for ourselves because we know it's a scary corner, because things have happened in that corner, so we've already connected those together, but so has our horse. So that all does it is real, it is you know, it does happen, but how we approach our desensitization, as Jen alluded to there, is supporting that self-talk. We approach it and go, okay, well, we know that that's a scary corner, but we got this, okay? We're gonna get out of the saddle, we're gonna go in hand, and we're gonna do some subtle negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement desensitization on a cool, calm day. We're not gonna do it nighttime, we're gonna maybe move some of the scary stuff out of the corner or bring some of the scary stuff into a non-scary corner to do some desensitization there. And how you approach it is in when you have self-belief as well that you're like, okay, this desensitization works. I know I'm gonna be able to support it with my horse. So you're coming in in a more confident, calm manner, but your self-talk supports you. Now, what's great about that, and this tips into a different type of human psychology, is you learn in that situation, you do your desensitization, you've worked in the scary corner in the hand, your horse is doing really well, you're feeling more confident, and then you get into the saddle in a week's time, and as Jen says, it's like a few scary jumps in that corner now, they're they weren't there the other day. You can take that positive learned experience that you had with the desensitization and say, Well, I've done this already, you know, and it helps yourself talk. I know that we can do this because we did our desensitization. I had a positive experience there, and therefore I know. So you can draw on that to support yourself and your horse within that scary corner. I love that because I think what sometimes gets overlooked is very often when we're doing behavior modification of horses, you know, we primarily start on the ground, and you know, the human has a plan that we're following and steps. But what's happening subconsciously very often is we're actually desensitizing ourselves as well. So it's not just the horse who's had a scary interaction, the humans had a scary interaction, but by taking the pressure off the human and putting the training on the horse, we're taking the pressure off our own emotions almost in that moment. And if you're having positive experiences in that corner, well, your horse is, but you are as well, with your horse. So, as you say, you've done this before. Um, and that takes me back to one of the studies we spoke about earlier about labelling the emotions that we're feeling to process and to to have those memories you know solidify. So walking out of that training session and go, Wow, I felt so much calmer today, I feel proud of myself. That was scary, but we achieved it and I feel accomplished. Self-talk is so important, and it does take practice because those might words might not come easily to you, but as you practice it, you're going to realise there's so many ways that you can talk brilliantly about yourself, even when it all goes wrong. So it does happen. We have a training session, it goes wrong, and I'll get messages from clients and be like, Oh my god, like I was doing so well, and then the horse bolted off and it all went wrong. And I will help them through that and go, Let's look at this. You got five reps before the horse left. That's five more than we've ever had. That's amazing. Look at that progress, look how resilient you're being. And you brought the horse back, you identified we needed to bring it back. That's a massive step forwards, that's awareness. So there's always positives to be taken, even when they're hard, but once you do it, it becomes easier. And conversations with my clients that I have all the time, and it's always about maybe sort of six weeks in, you know, and we've ticked off this, and we've got this, and we've got this, and we forget all the good stuff that happens. Yeah, and I have to stand there and go, like, okay, remember this bad thing, we've done it now. Oh yeah, remember this bad thing that we've got, we've fixed that now. Oh yeah, and you have to, you know, remind. And the thing is, it's you know, if you're sitting there going, Oh, she's talking about me. No, no, no, everyone, everyone, including myself, including myself. Um, over the last couple of years, like I've had various medical things where I've had to re-evaluate a lot of things, and I there's certain things I just can't eat anymore, and it there's times that I look back on the last few years and I go, Oh god, I'm still eating badly, and I forget all the things that I have achieved and remembering that. So, like that type of language helps improve our emotional vocabulary, you know, and then also improves our emotional intelligence. We talked about empathy by practicing that we can improve our emotional intelligence, apply empathy, and understand our horses better. You know, we know that when we learn to articulate our emotions in a more precise manner, we can improve our mental health and support ourselves and our horses. And we know that when we can do that by simply labelling our emotions, we can activate parts of our brain which help manage these feelings better, um, reducing their intensity and helping us regulate those emotions. So when you're in one of those scary scary situations, um, maybe nothing's happened, but you can just feel the anxiety. You know, not sometimes you can feel emotional stress, and you know, trauma is a big word, and people always think the worst, but trauma can be big, it can be small. Nothing has to actually happen. It can be in your head, you're already experiencing it. By just labeling those emotions and having that self-talk of okay, today I'm not feeling great, I'm feeling this and this and this and this. Have a moment of when did you feel good? What what feelings did you have, and what did you do to achieve those feelings? And by just having that conversation and thought position in your head, I can guarantee that your heart rate and your stress levels are going to start regulating. They might not come all the way down, but they're gonna start on the way down, which is where we want to be. So, one of the things, and I I do this a lot as well. So, hopefully, this is something that you can apply yourselves for self-talk and positive, conscious positive self-talk. Instead of saying, I can't do this, I try and say, I can handle this challenge. You're acknowledging that it's still a challenge, but you're also giving yourself a positive self-talk that I can handle this, I can do this. You know, it's a challenge, but I'm able for it. And it's really important to label your emotions. So if you're feeling stressed, acknowledge it. Acknowledging the stress right now that doesn't mean that you're going to make the situation worse. It can actually help you manage it more effectively, and then you can carry on to your next part, which is identifying the positives that you feel as well. Absolutely, Jen. Like I find using these affirmations can just be so beneficial, and again, practice them. It's all learning. The more you do them, the better you get at doing them, and it becomes uh subconscious. So these positive statements that you are just that are sorry, affirmations are positive statements that you just repeat to yourself to ref reinforce because we love a bit of reinforcement if we do, a positive mindset. So, again, just like I, you know, can handle this challenge, you know, being able to say, you know, I'm capable and strong, which always makes me think of that friends episode, you know, where Chandler's listening to the um to GitHub, which is like I'm a yes, yeah, I'm a strong and confident woman who doesn't need to smoke, you know. Make Joey a sandwich, you know, it just reminds me of that. But again, usually makes me laugh, gets a giggle, and creates those positive emotional states. So that's one that you know I tend to say to myself is I'm a strong and confident woman who doesn't need to smoke. That's part of my sandwich. Because even if you think it's nonsense and you're stood there saying that I am capable and strong and that makes you laugh, great, you still achieve the same thing, it's perfect, and like we've just said, so affirmations help you shift that focus, and what we know, what gets repeated, gets reinforced, you know. So if you practice this, even if you don't believe in it, you're gonna reinforce this and get better at it, even if it does make you think of friends episodes, it's it's still a step in the right direction. So if you take anything away from this, it would be incorporating just mindfulness, and and I know you know, mindfulness and self-help and all that stuff kind of gets bad rep, but it does really work, and the and the behavioral science is there, so you know, and hopefully we've alluded to that in talking about the research. So, like having that self-compassion incorporate it into your daily routine, you know, and help you enhance your own self-talk, but just being mindful really helps you stay just present in the moment and aware of your thoughts, which I think is really critical when we're training our horses because you're there with them at the time, being aware of that situation, you know, and that self-compassion, that empathy piece that we talked about, helps encourage you to be kind to yourself, you know. No, your sitting trot isn't shite, you know. You got out there and did that. It was a challenging dressage test, and you nailed it. Like, you know, who cares about the sit and trot? You know, you can work on that. It's it's it's progress, not perfection. And this can really, really help us during difficult times. Absolutely. You know, treat yourself with the same kindness that you would treat a friend, hopefully a good friend, not a bad friend, otherwise, that sentence doesn't work in this context. As a friend, not an enemy. Um, but even if mindfulness and meditation isn't your bag and you are more scientifically minded. Just refer to the start of this episode where we took you through the research. The way that we identify emotions and label them, and the way that we think and feel, even if we don't say it out loud, is affecting our stress levels, how we behave, and how we even our body language is on the outside. So even if you don't want to go and do mindfulness and meditation, just remember the science really is there that labeling emotions, self-talk, positive thinking, and how we think of ourselves, it has substantial basis. So I I hope you found that really interesting, guys, and hopefully there's some stuff that you can take away, you know, to improve your self-talk, talking about non-verbal, using positive influences and the interactions with our horses around us. Um I think we've probably first episode in, we've probably talked for Ireland or Scotland, sorry, Jen. Um, so will we move into our last section, Jen, and give the uh the lovely audience a taste of what's to come. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, guys. We are back with season two, and we've got loads of great content lined up in our podcasts. Uh, upcoming episodes, just a little bit of a teaser. We are going to uh continue with the prof uh progression, not perfection, um, and tell you some stories about when myself and Jen were less than graceful in our training and what we learned from it and how we can take that learning into more positive affirmations. We're gonna debunk dominance theory, so look out for that one. Um, we're gonna talk about stabling in our horses. We've loads of bonus episodes. Um, again, we're gonna dive into setting up our horses for success, and I'm not gonna tease anymore. Um, Jen, is there anything else that you want to tease there? We're going to be talking about all sorts of things that you guys are struggling with. So when it's moving horses between yards, whether it's creating the stable environment that's a bit more enriching, whether or not we want to be doing that, and we're gonna be covering some tough topics as well that we won't go into too much detail just now. Just know that some of the things that aren't widely spoken about when it comes to horse and pet ownership, some of the maybe sadder topics, we're gonna do our best to cover those in a supportive and educational way. And please do send your air fryer recipes in to me. Oh, sorry, I mean, please do send in your comments, queries, any questions, and yes, any air fryer recipes that don't recircuit my house. Um we love hearing from you guys. And you know, tell us the good, the bad, and the ugly, what you think of our new format. We are we more concise and professional. Uh say yes or I'll cry. And uh, any feedback is much appreciated. Any complaints, as always, you can email Jennifer Nash at the Equine Method. Um, and yeah, you can email that because that's not the correct email for me. So please do send your complaints to Jennifer Nash at the Equine Method, and I won't get them. That's perfect. So remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast on your favourite program. It helps us to reach more listeners like you. Until next time, guys, take care. Keep building those positive connections with your horses. See you next time, guys. Bye. Cigarettes don't control you. You are a strong, confident woman who does not need small. Joey's your best friend. You want to make him a cheese sandwich every day. And you also want to buy him hundreds of dollars worth of pants.