"Does Positive Reinforcement Lead to Biting Horses?"

In this episode, Jen and Barbara revisit a conversation that’s come back into the spotlight, one that clearly still needs to be had. We’ve reimagined our original pilot episode and asked the big question again: does positive reinforcement lead to biting in horses?

While the original pilot is still available, this episode takes the discussion further. We dive much deeper into what actually causes biting in horses, unpacking the difference between correlation and causation, and clarifying why positive reinforcement itself isn’t the culprit it’s often made out to be.

This reimagined pilot is packed with new insights, updated perspectives, and fresh examples. You can absolutely listen to the original pilot and this episode together, they complement each other beautifully and offer plenty of new and interesting takeaways.

Enjoy the conversation.

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:00

No, Isabel, I'm so sorry. She's like, oh no, and left. And Dylan looks at as well. She's just like, why are you stopping? What did I do wrong? What's happening here? To to be fair, it is a type of punishment that I do do when the cats annoy me. Um, like if they're doing something they shouldn't do, I will do a big stop it. Oh, 100%. It's such an easy disruptor. Yeah, well, this is it, you know. And I'd say, like, as a disruptor, it is still like I am trying to stop the behavior so positive punishment and it isn't right, you know. But up the the only animal that seems ever affected by it is Izzy, where she's like, I'm so sorry, and then leaves, and the cats just give me the middle finger because she's doing whatever they're doing anyway. Um, so yeah, that's that's much much of a mutness. Um, I'm keeping all this in by the way, the minimal editing effort. Um do you want to start? Yeah, I was just trying to find your expertly written script here to make it sound like we're super professional. Um hey Barb, do you remember our pie? Oh, you wrote Pyot. Well, hold on. I get I was gonna say so just again, of course there is. I wrote you a load of maniac notes at like 10 o'clock last night. So hold on. Like, you know, literally 10.30 last night, I just wrote notes for tomorrow, and there's like four sentences all jumbled up, and it's madness. So it was generally just as a jumping off point. You did not have to read it verbatim. Oh, but I I wanted to. Okay, you can do whatever you like. Off you go. Oh, thanks. It makes me feel better. Um, okay, yeah. So, what is the point of today's podcast? Is we are revisiting our very first episode, um, and in Barbara's words, which had horrific audio and it was all her fault. I had nothing to do with it in the slightest. Um, so it was what what was the topic? It was positive reinforcement does not cause biting in horses. And we covered a lot of information, so we're going to recap some of that. But another thing that we're going to be talking about more particularly today is what does cause biting. Because, you know, I I put a reel up a few weeks ago, it got great reach, good interaction. For the most part, people were on board and positive and sharing their lovely stories about how they've were working with food effectively with their horses. And obviously, there were some people who commented saying, no, this doesn't work, this isn't true. And there's always gonna be differences of opinion. Well, hold on, that's because it's social media and it's a load of people screaming into the internet. Oh yeah, because you always get there. Um put up um, and it was an actual doctor, research doctor, um, who put this up on social media recently, and I can't remember, I'm not quoting properly, but it was something about science is not a place for debate. I think I saw something. I think I think that's a good idea. It was something like which it is like it's like science is not a place for opinion and debate, it's a place for facts. And if facts either agree or they they disagree, there's no debating. It's either a yes or a no or needs more research. And if you read the literature and you read research and you don't like the methodology, and you think that the conclusions are incorrect or that they've missed something, which by the way, me and Jen do all of the time when we read like papers, then what you do is I know I heard, I saw uh somebody walk, and is it's outrage. Then what you do is you go, Okay, so I'm gonna do my own research, I'm gonna come up with my own hypothesis, and then you do your own research, and that's how science works. Yeah. But I also think with research, is this is a misconception that people don't understand unless you've been in that university world of writing and conferences and all this jazz. Is that there is a very big difference between debate and critical analysis. So when we don't have secure answers over a problem, you might do a literature review and a critical analysis of research. And that is not a debate. It is not trying to prove a point for or against. You're looking at what do we have, where are the strengths, where are the holes, what do we need to do, what can we say for certain or with confidence, what can what can we not say with confidence? Whereas a debate, I mean you are the debate queen, so please correct me, but for me, a debate is very much a for or against. It's very clear-cut. We're either proving or disapproving or agreeing or disagreeing. And for me, that is not how research or science works at all. It's not about opinion or proving points or opinions or thoughts. It's going, This is what we have, so this is what we'll do. And then do you know what? There's all these areas we're gonna keep working at, and we might change because we'll know more. And it also like highlights as well, usually I say if you have a literature review or like within research, you will also turn around. Welcome to the research podcast today, apparently. Yeah, sorry, topic already. We're just like totally gone off the rails. Um, like you will also highlight areas where you don't have enough information and the question is unclear. Or you will also turn around and say, Okay, based on the research that we have here and the results that we're getting back from statistics, you know, we can see that there is a significant difference, or this is the most likely scenario to happen. However, here's a load of things that are wrong in the information that we have that could be biasing it. You don't do that in a debate, you don't go like, well, I might be a little bit wrong on this. You know, you don't do that because it totally enters it, you know, like that's not how it works. Also, as well, debates will provide and and give an emotional bias and subjectivity, you know, to that that that conversation, because that's actually really important. Because the reason we have debates is because there's an emotional component to that, yeah, and it is important to have that and acknowledge that. However, when we discuss things and topics in research, we go, we're there's always going to be bias, and there's always gonna be an emotional component to it. However, as scientists and researchers like and practitioners, clinical practitioners in the field like myself and Jen, what we have to really try and do is recognize when we are biased, recognize when there's an emotional component, take a step back and look at it more analytically. Because if we don't do that, that's when we actually enter in, as I say, into a debate, and it becomes less about facts and more about emotion and feelings and subjectivity, and there's a place for both. But if we're being clinical professionals and researchers, we need to be as objective as possible and as clinical as possible in order to make the right decisions for that animal. Um unfortunately, social media, it's social, it's a very emotional place. It's also accessible. Um we know how I feel about it. I gotta start to say, but it's just it's screaming into the internet. Do you know what I mean? Like it is like, and the thing is the reason people want to do that is like, well, A, they want to connect and talk to people and have conversations, you know, that they find meaningful and interesting. The problem is, is that nobody's being listened to at all. Everybody wants to make their points heard. There's no time to do any of that, so it all just piles onto each other. Talking about debates, if we were actually to have like a debate and a and a good conversation about something, you would sit down with a cup of tea and a friend and you'd actually go back and forth, and you'd both be given time to like if you were having a good discussion about something. Social media doesn't allow for that. It's a dog pile, it's it's everybody just piles on top of the same one, and the conversation moves on before you actually get it any time to criticize or litigate or investigate any kind of point. And if somebody does make a salient point or a good point, you know, people have already moved on, you know, so you don't actually get time to interrogate anything. Um yeah. Welcome to the social media podcast today. And on that point, we're gonna draw a line and maybe we'll come back to the flaws of social media and try it very hard and get back to our actual topic, which and I know I opened that can of worms, I'm not being judgmental, it was my fault. Um, but we're gonna get back to talking about biting in horses, and we will talk about positive reinforcement and food and how that's involved, and yeah, recap some of the previous stuff and hopefully bring in some new information as well. Yeah, so we start this exactly like we started the pilot with better audio. Um and basically, like, does positive reinforcement or you know, food lead to bite, you know, create biting horses? No, absolutely not. Like it's correlation versus causation, like the same, you know, it it we're we're connecting the wrong things here. You know, we see A, we see B, and we see that what's happened and the and the consequences, and it's actually attributing the wrong thing, you know. Um, and I don't know if you want to explain correlation versus causation, Jen, before we kind of get into the nitty-gritty, because I do think that's important. Well, there is an uh people might have heard this um analogy before, but there is a great website that I can't remember the name of it, and it lets you take statistics around the world and put them on a graph. Ah, this one, yeah. And there is one of the best examples is looking at Australia and ice cream sales and shark attacks. And shark attacks, yeah. And there's a positive correlation between the two. So if you were to look at that graph and not think too critically and just go, wow, there's a positive correlation. As people I buy ice cream, they get eaten by more sharks. How amazing. Sharks are affected by ice cream sales. Now, obviously, when you say that out loud, it's absolute nonsense because what you actually have is just a correlation between two groups of statistics information. Obviously, as the weather is better, so as the weather gets better, people go to the beach, they buy ice creams, they're playing around, they're in the water, they're splashing around, they're surfing, they're whatever, bodyboarding, swimming. So you have more people in the water during summertime. Now, I don't know the migration patterns of sharks, but I'm wondering potentially. Great white shark, Australia, South Africa, South Africa in the summer. Um, where's the no end of the season? That wasn't a test for me, and I just realized I jumped in. Keep going, keep going. I know you made yourself sound like some sort of marine expert there. Um please carry on. Um, but obviously there's there's possibly a migratory um feeding pattern there that the sharks are also in those waters at that time. And what you have is a correlation that the sharks are there more often. You also have more people in the water, so you just have more likelihood of shark attacks because the statistics are higher, there's higher populations, higher numbers. Ice creams are not causing the shark attacks. But that is the difference between that's that's where when two bits of information put together can look like a positive correlation, if you don't know and you can't assess the information in front of you, it's very easy to come to the wrong conclusions. And there's some really, really fun ones, as you say, like you know, ice cream, you know, ice cream sales versus shark attacks is quite a a famous one. Um, and like if you were, you know, you put the two graphs together, like they absolutely match completely. Um, but you've also got like the other one is um measle cases versus marriage rates. Oh measured. Um yeah, yeah, yeah. It's and it's great because you've got like a massive decline in the amount of measle cases as well as US marriage rates, they they drop at the same time. So it's like, oh, but when we all had measles, we were getting married so much more, and then we stopped getting measles and people stopped getting married. So yeah. Um the other one is people who have degrees versus uh box office revenues. Uh so the more degrees people have, the higher revenue for the cinema. Um, so yeah, there's there's loads and loads of them, but it's just it's effectively correlation does not mean causation. Yeah, so it's really, really important that when we, you know, we talked at this at the start, we do all have our own biases. We do, you know, we we we are like subjective human beings, so we just need to make sure that we're being robust. And like again, me and Jen are guilty of this too, because we are people, and I will I am very guilty of this, right? You know, the red sky at night, shepherd's delight, and like you know, red sky in the morning, shepherd's warning. If I get up in the morning and there's a red sky in the morning, I'm like, oh no, like what's gonna happen today? You know, I do have like because you know, there's that kind of like ingrained superstition. Also, if it rhymes, it must be true, you know. Um, so you know, we are but humans, we do see the world around, and then all that needs to happen, you know, is I've had a red sky in the morning, and something bad does happen that day. I'm like, oh, the sky was true, you know, because we make those connections, yeah, you know, and it's that correlation, isn't it? It's like people, and I'm bringing us back onto the topic. Um, people are their hand is near the horse's mouth, they provide food, and then we're gonna get into all the factors that can cause biting, and hand gets bitten. It's very easy to blame the food. That's your correlation, not your causation, because it's a much bigger topic. Um and I mean this was this is one of the the comments I had um on the reel was that this isn't true. You know, my horse only bites, only bites when he's given treats. As soon as you stop taking as soon as you take the food away or you stop giving him treats, he stops nipping and biting. And that for me is a correlation. Oh, just a perfect, perfect correlation because it's also not read my caption because I explained a lot of the reasons why horses bite. Get back into the social media, into the social media. Um, but it's perfect, you know, less measles, less marriage. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's a perfect example of why I think this topic keeps coming up because it's also the quickness in which all it happens. You know, there's not a time period between them because to give a horse food by hand, you're very close to them, the proximity's there, so everything happens very quickly. And then it's dangerous, it feels it's painful, it doesn't feel nice. So the brain is going to go very quickly into defensive mode and very quickly find emotions that are like blame, blame, blame, find something to blame so I don't do that again. Put that into the memory in the storage in the brain, and we don't do that again because of this happened, right? Done. Learning, done. I've protected my body. Yeah, and we can't help it. We can't, and as it's fundamentally, this is where you know we need to really understand our own species-specific behavior and then also the species-specific behavior of quadrupeds, and this is cats, dogs, horses, all in the same cats, dogs, horses explore and investigate the world using their mouths. Like they also, you know, will groom and do nice things to each other with their mouths. Now, as humans, we don't do that. We explore and in vet we don't explore and investigate with you know the world with our mouths. So we do if you when we're babies, I know, but if you are currently listening to this and doing that, please get help. Like, so you should please use your hands, you know, don't be licking door handles. Um, so like literally, I just I'm laughing at my own joke. At least I've made myself happy. Um, we explored the world using our hands, but yeah, as you say, as babies, we put a lot of things in our mouths, and it's that that part of that investigation, we use our hands, you know. We touch, we feel things, we pick up fabric, if we're looking at clothes, you know, it is how we explore the world, but how these animals explore the world is through their mouths. So we've got a completely miscommunication there, like when it comes to it, and it's funny how we find it really cute when a puppy is mouthing at us and doing things. Jen sent me a lovely video of Fia chewing a book, and then at some point she went, Oh no, no, wait, actually, I need to read this at some point. So it's just, you know, and she chewed the corner of it. And again, exploratory behavior, you know. Jen let her do that, so it's her own fault when she destroys all her books later. Can I just do a very quick shout out to Steve Mann for that? Oh yeah, for that easy. She's eaten two books, she's eaten two books now. Um but it was Steve Mann's um oh easy peasy. Yeah, easy peasy. Um and I flipped open the book to halfway to take a picture, and it just so happened that the about the middle of the book is a chapter called Mouthing Manners, and at the precise moment that I went to take a picture, Fia bit the book. Like proper landshark, bit the book. There are now teeth marked dented into that chapter. It's like so. I was talking about social media. I was like, you need to send that Steve Mann. That is that you could not have written that. That is amazing. I need to. You do need to. It's so good. We've done a lot of we must, and I say we, Jen will. Um, when we do release this podcast on stories, you need to put that photo up. Yes, put up on stories, and then and then also put up some of the graphs for the measle and the shark stuff so people can see it. Because I think that would be a good one. That'll be good as our homework, right? Um saying, so yes, exploring the world, you know, as as a horse and a puppy and a dog, you know, with mouths is really important. Like it is, like it is really, really important for those creatures. So, like, and and using our hands is important. If I hand Jen, like uh using her hands is really important for us. If I hand Jen a Mars bar, I'm doing it with my hand. She's not going to go face first into my hand with the Mars bar. And if you do that next time I see you, Jen, like it'll be over. You take your other hand and you pick it up and you take it away. I was gonna say debatable depending on how hungry I am. Yeah, it's just Jen gets super hangry. Um you did just send me a message yesterday that just said eating exclamation mark, and I was like, is that a demand? Is that is is that just a request? I don't actually know what that means. But yeah, it's like hands to hand, right? You know, combat. Um like it's what it's how we we shake hands, you know, like they're really important for us. So like we put our hand out to give a food reward to our dog or our cat, or do you know, like petting zoos, we do it with kids as well, with goats and horses. It's so part of like here, we want to give you something, and then we get annoyed when the species that explores the world with its mouth, you know, maybe doesn't understand bite inhibition, like to the same degree because they haven't taught it, like this, you know, and they haven't learnt it. Like, literally happened to me yesterday, and I'll stop talking in a minute and let you get a word in anyways. Literally um happened yesterday. Five-year-old um mayor had some separation anxiety issues, and I was scratching her withers. Um, and the first thing she did was nip the side of my arm, right? Now, scrap wither scratch is like a positive reinforcement. I'd say it's also really nice. She wasn't trying to bite me, she was trying to groom me back. Of course, I'm like, it's okay, chicken, I'm good, I'll groom you, but you don't have to groom me back. Because horses will bite and mouth each other's withers. It's very nice for them. They don't necessarily consider that a bad thing because that's how they explore their environment. You know, and it's a great example of where there can be miscommunication because horses are anywhere between 300 and 700 kilos, their teeth are very strong, they have very strong jaws. Their if their attachment, their their what they feel as painful when it comes to mouthing, is very different to what we would. Their skin is very they're now I'm not gonna say they're thick skin because they don't, but for them, forceful nipping and biting and grooming is pleasurable and enjoyable and correct. That level of force in us will break our skin and it feels painful, like we're not going to enjoy that. And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, it just means that's that's a communication between two different species, which isn't appropriate. It works within their species, not ours. And there's an important learned component for them as a social species with other horses at what that bite inhibition should look like. Yeah. And by that I mean it's like what force is good. Um, my darling perfect angel wasn't socialized very much when she was younger. And I have a video, um, and again, put it on the list to put it up, of her learning to groom for the ver like do this like mutual grooming for the first time when she was about seven or eight years old, and she does it well for a bit, and then she just goes hump and the poor other horse was like, No, too much, too much, too much, and runs away. But it's just this proper bite, and I'm like, that's the no, that's not that's not how to play an ice blossom, don't do that. Um, but there's this is there's a learned component, and if we miss those critical stages as well, it can be really challenging for horses to try and pick that up as they as they get older. Absolutely, absolutely. So let's let's talk about what is healthy, correct use of a horse's mouth. So we've kind of talked about like grooming and socialization, they're completely normal and healthy. For me, communicative nips are also completely healthy and normal. Horses will nip each other to say, especially in that sort of like grooming socialization. Um, I can remember so when I first got Ruben, Ruben had been very much in a show jumping, very much limited turnout, single turnout, and hadn't really socialized. He met Dougal, my other horse, very well socialized from day one. And they would groom Ruben, a bit like Blossom, wouldn't always do it very well. And when Ruben was doing things wrong, and Dougal would give a very quick, sharp nip on the neck, it wasn't aggressive, it was very clear communication of nope, stop, that's enough. I'm breaking space now. And for me, horses that that's a very healthy communication style because that it makes sense to them. Mayors will do it to fools, horses will do it to one another. It's not aggressive. I'm not talking about the full-blown charge snaking head down. We're talking about the very discreet, quick nip, and then break contact, and that's all it was. It was a it was a very clear nope, I'm done, that's too much. I'm drawing a line, but we're still friends. It's not an attack. And I think that gets missed by people as well, because people call, oh, he's being so cheeky, he's being rude, he's I'm like, actually, your horse is actually asking for some space here. Quite politely. You know, he's pulling on your clothes, but when you're doing something, it can mean a couple of other things as well. But we're off stick with just this one topic to begin with, is sometimes that nipping is actually uh a request for things to slow down. They they're having a hard time. And that if that was a horse talking to another horse, that would be understood. So the horse isn't at fault here. We need to be better understanding what that moment of communication means. Yeah, absolutely. And she talked about the nip and nuzzle as well. Like for foes and something that they learn when they're quite, you know, when they're young, like there is you know, exploring the world, you know, finding, you know, the mayor's teeth as well, like that nip, that nuzzle, trying to find it. Um, you know, there's the grooming and the social companion part of it as well. And it's also as you say, like just generally trying to figure things out, or as you say, do I want space? It's it's prime it's the primary way that horses can really communicate and explore their world. You know, so it happens for lots of different reasons. And again, uh it it's really important that a horse is a horse and a human is a human. Okay, that we don't conflate the idea of okay, well, if the horse behaves this way, in order for the horse, because they see us as another horse, we need to communicate the same way. No, absolutely not, you know, like it it's about setting clear boundaries about how they communicate how how we communicate, understanding what they are trying to communicate, you know, and and putting that in place. We are not going to start using our mouths to explore and nip and nuzzle them. Like, and we don't want them to do it with us either, but we teach that differently. They're still gonna perform those behaviours with other horses. You can aloe groom your horse and scratch their withers, they don't need to groom you back. But when they're with another horse in another field, they still might do that. You know, if they want space from us, they might provide a different behaviour that we have taught them rather than nip and nuzzle at us. You know, it we're not conflating the two here. Yeah, I'm actually so glad you said that because it's a bit of a bugbear of mine. That's actually taken me quite a few years to come to this opinion. But I'd actually don't like the narrative of we need to communicate like a horse. Yeah, I hate it. No. We need to communicate in a way the horse can understand. We need to work towards what their understanding of the world is. But attempting to behave like a horse, I think it's actually really confusing for horses because you're gonna- and really well really dangerous, but you're gonna switch off. Like you're not going to behave like a horse 24-7. Every single second you are around that horse, you're gonna get distracted and talk to your friend. And suddenly you're human and now you're behaving differently. And then suddenly your behavior changes, and now you're behaving in an inverted comet as a horse. It doesn't work. It it's so confusing, super dangerous. I just don't see us as other horses. No, the same way that I don't look at a horse and go, Oh, you know, Jen's looking different today. Like, do you know what I mean? It's she's channeling dog today. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's just oh, yeah, we can't go down that rabbit hole. But you know, it it's it also as I say, like we are people, they see us as people, you know, they learn our idiosyncrasy in idiot. Yeah, did I say it right? Okay, that word. Um, you know, they know what it looks like when we move our body in a different way to other horses, and they learn through consequences, trial and error learning and association what that looks like, which is very different from how a horse behaves. Do you read like facial? What can you move your ears the way a horse can move its ears? No, but they but they read our smiles. You know, I mean No, but no no, but I mean from the perspective of like we could never possibly communicate the way a horse communicates because we just enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, but yeah, they they read everything else about us. And we have research to show that, like that they do read our facial expressions, as you say. But I mean like we we could never possibly be a horse to them. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. You know, and we don't want them to be. Like, do you know what I mean? Blossom bullies everybody that's a horse in the field, but she likes me. So I'm and doesn't bully me most of the time. Sometimes your horse doesn't seem to like a horse. Um okay, so other healthy mouth oral behavior for horses is chewing and eating. Like, what is it? Uh something crazy like 35,000 to 65,000 chews per day is healthy chew rate for a horse. That's off the top of my head, it might be more, it might be less, but it's something, it's a massive number per day, is the healthy number of chews per day for a horse. So chewing, the desire to chew and forage is ingrained in horses, super, super healthy. And if they're not being provided enough opportunities to perform that chewing behavior, then we might become the chew toy. They're gonna displace that behaviour in different places. And it will go back to the puppy analogy. Yeah, I mean, it's cute when they're chewing until it's not cute, and then you get into that devil period where they're then teething and mouthing and you know, and it they turn into I mean, Steve Mann coined it, the land shark. They're not doing anything they're not doing anything wrong. It's totally normal natural behaviour. They're teething. Children bite their parents because they've got sore teeth and they're angry and they're coping and it's sore, totally normal natural behaviour, but in we need to provide healthier opportunities for them to express it around us. Now, for horses, let them forage, let them have access to forage, good quality forage, not short chop. Well, obviously, dental issues occur. I understand you know, there's gonna be a caveat to the city. Outside of medical caveats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but if they don't have enough foraging opportunities during the day, and then you are working with food, the likelihood of a nip or over-arousal is super likely. But the food didn't cause that. The lack of foraging and chewing opportunity caused that. Yeah. It's again, it's like Gen being hungry. You know, it's exactly that. It's just like I'm not going back to that well. Um, like if if you know, you don't have the opportunities to meet your basic needs, you know, it's very hard for your body to maintain, you know, the homeostasis emotionally and physically, and therefore other behavioural problems are gonna come out of that. You know. Um and while, you know, w it's and again, this is one of it's a contentious issue within, you know, and positive reinforcement in clicker training circles and different people, you know, like you know, not to have an animal hungry, whether it's a dog or a horse, prior to training, um, in order to try and motivate them to, you know, perform the behaviors that you want for food. Um, because again, that can cause more issues, as Jen says. There's also I think on I think there's a there's a possibility that could there's like a double negative there. So just for clarity, there is a school of there's a school of thought out there that there are trainers in many industries, whether it's dog, horse, whatever, that will suggest to not feed your animal so that they are hungry, so that they are then motivated to and and what we're saying is like that is not a good way to go about it because you're going to increase that hunger and frustration. Um absolutely, and then like you know, but then at the same time as well, from an operate conditioning perspective as well, the animal needs to be motivated to perform that behaviour for the reward, you know. Like, as you say, we fed Jen and then we ask her to do something, she's like, Well, and we'll give her food for it. She's like, I'm stuffed, I don't, you know, I'm I'm good, I don't need any more food. You know what I mean? So that's like we're getting into sort of weird territory there. But if you if you feed me the uh appropriate amount, I'll be far likely to be able to do that. Yeah, I'll be more amenable. Yeah, so it's just it's just balance like for everything. Meet basic needs, don't let Jen starve, and then you know, you won't get angry, Jen. I'll stop with this. Um So what does cause biting? An analogy. What does cause biting? Yes, why so go on? Why do horses bite? The question that everyone, the people who are don't believe us, say that food treats cause biting, and we're saying no it doesn't. Let's answer the question then. What does cause biting in horses? Poor timing, poor poor timing and delivery, and not setting up foundations. If we go right from the get-go, and I and again, not trying to say, lads, you're being shit, so that's why. Like, you know, again, if m everyone gets their timing wrong, including myself and Jen, if we don't get the delivery the way it is, if the horse is expecting to get a food reward and doesn't and is frustrated because we haven't set clear principles for when it happens, like then then it's then we're more likely to get a bite, like because the frustration is there. So that's why we like using a marker, that's like why we like being consistent, you know, when the horse performs a behavior that they expect to to get a food reward, and this happens, you're always gonna feed your horse, by the way. Like, you know, people who don't use positive reinforcement, you are always going to feed your horse. If you don't, it's a welfare show. You're gonna give them hay, you're gonna give them their feed, you're gonna do that every single day, and you will find that when and they're still all food rewards, regardless of whether it's treats or not, you will find that you have given clear signals of when you're about to bring the hay net in, when you're about to give the feed bucket, and it's predictable, and your horse then isn't frustrated. If it wasn't predictable, or if you walked past an empty bucket because you're actually just watching it, and the horse thinks you're gonna go get food, you're gonna see the same frustration-based behaviors because it's inconsistent and the timing isn't right. Like, then chances are you probably at some point you have had carrots in your pocket, you know. I have literally seen it happen carrots in the pocket, stopped to chat chat to a friend, and it's the friend who had the carrots in the pocket, and her horse had sort of stopped and was like, You're busy talking, and was nuzzling and nudging and all the rest of it, and she went, All right, okay, and broke off a bit of carrot and handed it to him, you know, and then went back to chatting with me, and then he started nudging and pushing at her again, you know, and it's like we inadvertently trained that. Yeah, yeah, because the investigative behaviour was positively reinforced. Yeah, absolutely. So it's again without trying to victim blame, it's our own inconsistency and poor timing that can cause a lot of these issues. We're the problem. Totally. And just going back on that, thinking about like I think you raise a really great point that even if you don't consider yourself training of positive reinforcement, you actually are, because every time you feed your horse, or even if you engage with them in a positive way, scratches, attention, you are actually giving positive reinforcement training. Positive reinforcement is not a training method, it's part of learning theories, part of operant conditioning. It just happens, it's part of learning. Um, you can inadvertently we talked about we talked about scratches earlier. That is still positive reinforcement, social cohesion. Like, you know, putting turning your horse if you turn your horse out with their friend, that is positive reinforcement. You have you have provided them, you know, it's an additive for for that behavior. So you're doing it regardless of whether you think you are. Yeah. And the same with positive reinforcement, people, by the way. If you're like, I only use positive reinforcement, you don't, you also use negative. It all happens. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there'll be positive punishment in there. Another one. Another podcast episode. Go listen to our bonus episodes. I think we go into that in great length. Yes. But what's gonna say is that that frustration is is there even if the horse isn't biting and you're not experiencing nipping and biting frustration behavior around food. There could be crowding at the stable door, kicking at the stable door, crowding at the gateway. There's going to be food-related anxious behaviors in your horse's environment and just day-to-day. It doesn't necessarily mean that your horse needs to be a nipping, biting horse to have food-related concerns. They're going to be there all the time. And that is like a very roundabout way of also saying that treats don't cause biting because the underlying behaviour, the underlying emotion for all this is a sense of you know anxiety, frustration, um that's been caused by the environment and the management. I literally just posted a reel today about the fact, you know, management and environment, it just underpins the city. I know, isn't it? But it's not it's not those. Hi Jen, did you want to plug anything? Did you want to plug anything? You know, do you want to plug it on? You can follow me on Facebook and Instagram at the Equine Method, also Barbara or at Brighthorse. No, don't follow me. Don't I don't want us. I don't want it. Go follow Jen. Go do that. Annoy her with this. Send the woman who actually schedules her posts and organises these folders and puts so much effort into so, so I don't have to be anywhere near it. Jen will tell you as well, if I get comments, I'm like, go away, go comment somewhere. So everyone please found Barbara with comments now. Please. Anyway, sidetrack once again with derailing. Yeah. So what causes horses to bite? For me, it really is when there's a mouse post. So we talked about timing. There's a human element here, and I think on I'm going to plug it again. That on my post, I talked about building a garden fence. My reel on Facebook, the Equine Method on Facebook and Instagram. I talked about building a garden fence. If I build a garden fence, I'm gonna have some ouch moments. I'm gonna drop things in my feet, I'm gonna probably get blisters, splinters, probably hit my hand of hammer. You were building a fence, Jen. I just never have few. I'm a stupid well there you go, outsource. Perfect, perfect example. Thank you. If I was to build a garden fence, it probably wouldn't be 100% straight. I'd make lots of mistakes, I'd get hurt, I'd get frustrated, I'd probably rage quite a few times. I'm not skilled in that area, and issues would occur, and that can happen with horse owners all the time. So, yeah, outsource. Get Barbara involved, get me involved, get a trainer who is a behaviorist who is actually qualified and registered and knows not to build your fence, but for your horse. Yeah. I'm not building. Don't hire me for your fences, please don't do that. I'm not a contractor. Um, but it's not about blaming and being like, okay, the human caused this. I mean, that's a very blunt way of saying it. It's a case so that nobody is just naturally blessed with the skills. You have to understand the timing, the bridging, the gaps, and also how to then shape that and chain that into bigger uh behaviors. So it's more complex and doing that without eliciting frustration or over-arousal or confusion, because those are, I think, for me, the main underlying emotions which cause your typical inverted commas, nasty nippy bites, the ones that people get hurt from and get scared from, quite rightly. Again, I have no no concerns or like I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad for saying I'm actually quite scared to feed my horse because I don't want to get hurt. Totally fine, not an issue. Nobody wants to get cut. I've gone I've gone to A and E and had to have a cosmetic surgeon help put skin back in place, and I was in a cast because it was so it was so serious. But right through, you know, centre of the the palm of my hand, right through to the other side, like where my thumb is, like right through punctured the entire skin because there's an important muscle there, and the scar tissue and everything that there sometimes it does like I'll move and I can feel it get like sore, but it was punched right through like my hand. Lovely, you know. Um, and guess what that horse had? Underline medical conditions, yay, wasn't the food, you know. So yeah, um, it's like and that and the thing is as well, like it took me a good long while to work with horses again where I was any kind of movement that looked like a bite and stuff, I would get very panicked and scared because I've had a trauma to and a very painful experience, you know. So it takes a long time for that to happen and be kind to yourself, but it's like I don't blame that horse. At least she still sees that horse this day, and gave her a carrot the other day. Literally, same hand, and the joke I make is like oh return to the scene of the crime, and um, you know, as they with the owner, and she's like, No, don't, Baba, don't you know? It's like, don't make that joke. I'm like, I have to, um, you know, sweet little thing, as say, like, been treated for cushions, you know, get on really, really well. Like, it's but it's not the horse's fault, it wasn't my fault or the owner's fault, it just happened, it was an accident, and there was an underlying medical condition, you know, and other things happening with that horse medically, that was always gonna be a barrier and a reason that you know things happened. Always you cannot train through like it. You you're you're gonna have an issue. No, and I'm so glad you brought that up. Um, because I was at a uh first aid CBD training with uh Thomson and Harding, Equine Vets running at Kelsaw Hill last night, and it was awesome. Are they are you being sponsored? Is something happening here that I've missed? We're just engaging with the community, Barbara. I know, I know. Go, go, finish the rest of your plug. Um, I just want people to really hound you. Like, I want them to be like gent sold out. Like what do you get? I'm engaging with the community. For her original stuff. She's really yeah, that's it. Please, yeah. Are you done? Are you done? Yeah, I am yeah, I'm gonna be able to do that. We got that system. Okay. I have yet, right? Well, one of the things I really enjoyed was even though it was a very medical and we're talking about first aid, is they kept talking about biting and keeping yourself safe. And not as biting as being an issue for first aid, just a case that when we're going, we talk about all these injuries and colic and everything, and there was a discussion about capillary refill. But the fact that biting is very often linked to horses in pain, and it is something, a behavior that you might often see. So if you're trying to handle your horse and they're biting you, don't. Was basically the first aid training. Like, you know, if there's a horse colicking, it's thrashing around in the stable, you can't get near it, and every time you go near it, it tries to bite you. Close the door, call the vet, you know, don't get involved, keep yourself safe. Was the kind of the topic. Standard avoid standard avoidance behavior. Please I'm I'm in pain, I need to protect myself. Exactly, exactly. But I actually really liked that it was mentioned a few times throughout the CPD event as a behaviour that. Identified as a horse in pain, like there is an issue there, it's not a personality, it's an as an actual symptom, especially if it comes out of nowhere that suddenly your horse is biting or biting objects or getting very nippy or food resource scaring, and it's a very big change in their behavior. That is something to take note and think very quickly along the lines of is my horse's health actually struggling at the minute? Do you know what's really sad just as you're talking? I was thinking, like I was like, I work with uh and so does Jen actually, like uh both canines and equines. Um, and I see I see a lot of uh canine bike cases, and you know, sadly some of them go to the courts and the dogs are seized and there's other issues and stuff there. So for some reason, I do a lot of dog bite cases. I don't want to do any more, so do not message me about them, right? But I do a lot of them because it tends to be very common. Not every single one of those dogs, there's a pain. There's pain. Every single one, and we accept it across the board, like you know, we've got an issue that dog is trying to get distance, you know. When we have bite cases, there's always something else going on. Like there's so and it's so common. Like I've seen everything from dental issues, skin issues, gastrointestinal, musculoskeletal, you know, there's something there, but we accept it, I feel a little bit more readily, like with dogs, or maybe they're just the cases that I see, and that's my own bias, you know. Whereas I feel like we sort of see it as a little bit more naughty if a horse does it. I know we think dogs are naughty too, but I don't know. Oh, if I just pull that out of the air, no no no no. I think it is it is a it's it's a real thing that it's seen as disrespectful or cheeky or naughty, and you get all the labels that of just a bitey horse. The horses just get label, oh they bite, full stop. And that that's the end of conversation. There's no investigation, there's no understanding of well, why are they biting? It's just a case of just what? How many yards do you walk down and be like, this horse bites? Yeah, and that's 100%. Or it's like people go, Oh, be careful of him, he bites. And it's just accepted, you know, like whereas you don't if you walk, if you if you had guests coming into your house and you went, Oh, just the dog bites. You you know, you'd be like, and and in those situations, again, it's kind of I d they do exist, they do exist. I'm not saying they don't, but I how don't think I've ever been on a yard where people you know, where there isn't a be careful that horse and that one they bite. Like every single yard. But you know, I I do think, yeah, this is a bit more of kind of an acceptance as well. Um yeah, pain. Pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, underlying medical issues, there's something else going on. Um and that comes into the learned component as well, because you know, they're they are distance increasing behaviors, so the horse is performing them in order to increase the distance away from a perceived threat. You know, and that happens from either emotional vulnerability and insecurity, you know, where they're kind of they like fear of separation, frustration, they're missing something emotionally, in which case training and behavioral modification usually you through the use of you know, positive reinforcement can support, or it's a protective mechanism because of internal pain and discomfort. And we need to protect ourselves. Absolutely. I'm just thinking there. So this we talked about it uh very briefly at the start, but I think one of the other things that worth mentioning here is over-arousal around food and trying to think of the best way to frame this. Not the horse hasn't been set up in the best way, and there's confusion. So there's there's how to access the food is very is unclear to the horse, and actually working with food can be quite stressful for some horses. Now, those horses very often are under some sort of underlying condition as well that may or may not be diagnosed, probably have a suboptimal environment. And I I try to use the word suboptimal instead of poor because there are good yards out there that for the most part the horses are happy, but for one or two horses it's just not quite enough for them. So I wouldn't I don't want to label a yard as being of a poor standard, it's just individually sometimes it's suboptimal for that one horse. So that horse's needs aren't quite being met. So when we do bring food into the picture for working with, it's actually super exciting, but not in a positive way, in an actual stressful anxiety, over-arousal. Over-arousal way. And I think people can misread that situation, go, oh, it blows his brain, he gets way too excited, he can't focus. And on one part, I'm like, yeah, do you know what you are reading that? You can see the over-arousal, you can see the horse is struggling. But before we ask the bigger question. Yeah, the punishment usually. Yeah. Or yeah, and either positive or negative punishment. Yeah, and they just take it away completely. Which makes it even more desirable. Mm-hmm. Yes, because it is yep, gateway to Narnia. Um So actually we need to deal with the emotions around the food and the behaviors around food before we actually train the behavior. Because again, those horses will have anxiety type behaviors around food in other areas of their life. It's not magically just the hand feeding or the treats. If that behavior is there, it will be in other areas of their lives. And actually, what we're found out is that horse has an anxiety in their lives that deserves to be recognized and dealt with, not ignored. And I'd say, like, I know um, you know, we're talking about kind of the comments that we've had back or like where people are like, no, if you know, I feed treats, the nipping starts. The minute I stop, the nipping stops, you know, and have made that connection. And again, this and it sounds so counterintuitive, and people really, really struggle with it. Um, but when we have that high frustration behavior, when there isn't an underlying medical issue, you know, and there is something else happening, as you say, like we can try and ensure that there's more forage provided, that we're meeting their basic needs. Um, but instead of stopping food delivery, increasing the amount of it can help reduce the frustration because we get into this mindset where like, oh no, God, if I feed with food or I do this, then we just you know, as as Jen says, like we recognize they get, you know, more rows, higher frustration, we get all this sort of stuff, so they go, Oh god, I better stop doing that. We've made it more of like, you know, as you say, like what did you say, the golden apple, the forbidden fruits? Forbidden fruits. Um forbidden fruit. Where did I get golden apple from? Um, is the golden apple is the first one? Yeah, the first The Lion of the Witch. Not The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe, but the prequel sequel, and then there's a golden apple, and then that's where they released the witch. This is the Welcome to the Narnia podcast. Um, so I don't know, it's my birthday. I'm just nodding in the background. Oh, sure, okay. Cool. Um, yeah, it's so like instead, you know, we want to increase the delivery like of of fo of food, so then we can reduce the frustration so that the horse or the dog, you know, that we're working with goes, oh, okay, this isn't a finite supply, you know, and then you can pair it back and and give less delivery. Um, but again, I don't don't do this alone because there may be, as we've discussed, something else going on, you know, something missing in the environment, something is suboptimal within the environment that we need to address. There may be an underlying medical issue, um, and there's other things to help deliver with your timing, but it's more just to kind of explain the structure of that. So let's do a hypothetical that potentially the horse is in a great environment, social access, forage, friends, freedom, we're in good health, but we still go over arousal, or you know, you start repositive reinforcement, you're trying to get going, you're feeling really geared up. What could have possibly caused that nipping and biting? Sometimes it's just a simple error, unfortunately, that we just went in with something that was just too high value. And actually, we ideally we want to start at the bottom of the scale, something super low value. Chaff, if your horse has good dental health and we're not worried about choke and they're not bolting their food, is a really nice one because of the chew rate, and it takes them a while to chew and it feels super satisfying. Sometimes if we go in too fast with the the big nugget treatment there because it's a hard pellet, um, and I know there has been research done on this, like the if the hard pellets take less time to chew and swallow, so there's a la there's much less um less satisfying for like duration. Um and then so you want it more and more and more and more because you're like, I finished it, I want another one, I finished it, I want another one, whereas the chaff is much slower. Um that's just a really simple little starting block that can go easily wrong. And especially when you're working with young, naive horses that potentially don't really have any behavioural issues, but you just want to start on the good on the right direction on the right foot. That sometimes like, oh, you know, start with carrots, yummy, juicy carrots because it's what I've got, and you know, low sugar and everything. And it's a just you know, nobody does it on purpose. It's a really simple error that's easily rectified. Yeah, you just you just just switch to a l a lower value food, like it's very easily done. Um, but I think people can have a negative experience there and again very quickly form a negative opinion when it was just one, it was a stumbling block. That's all, we just tweak the resource that we're using and then you'd be flying off. Um and that happens, but this is again where you are often it is a good idea to outsource and get somebody involved who knows all this stuff and can guide you from day one to avoid them. And like, don't get me wrong, sometimes we'll do food trials. Like, sometimes I will offer a horse a higher value one just to see what happens. Can we work with this? You know, um, or do we need to go lower down? Because some horses also are not motivated by chaff. Yeah, like at all, it's just not desirable enough. And then the other thing that can kind of happen as well is to say, like, again, you know, in this perfect ideal situation, when you were describing this horse, I was like, oh god, it's the horse for sale. You know, no medical is perfect environment, yeah, yeah, it doesn't exist. Um, it's definitely a unicorn. And the other thing as well is like what we often tend to do as well is you know, we tend to use positive reinforcement and as I say, learning theory as well, like as say negative reinforcement in situations where we're doing systematic desensitization and counterconditioning, you know. Um, and so usually there's a stress response or there's something that we're trying to, you know, countercondition or desensitize the horse to. So sometimes the other reason a bite can happen is because again, they've gone over threshold and they've a higher arousal, and they're not paying attention, so we get greedy, right? You know, and it's an accident, like, and because you get this snatching. So, you know, we've gone out, horses scared of traffic and cars, so you know, we've slowly moved towards the road, we're doing check-ins and positive reinforcements, help with the systematic desensitization, and we've gone a little bit too close to the road, or a big lorry comes past, and the horse has got massive hypervigilance, we're up completely, we're like, Whoa, what's that? You know, but the horse, you're going like, Oh, do you want to check back in? You know, I have a food reward for you, it's there in your hand. The horse turns around, grabs it. It's a more snatchy behavior because it's more frantic because they grab it really quickly and then they put their head back up because they need to pay attention. That's actually we don't want that, that's not ideal. We've gone too far, and it's an accidental, you know, nip because they're just trying to grab it really quickly, and it's very snatchy behavior. We're not actually learning properly in that environment. So, again, it's accidental. Yes, it happens when you're using positive reinforcement, but again, is it the food that caused it? No, you went too close to the trigger, people. So it was us again. We we got greedy, and I get greedy too, because you're like, oh, this is working, I want to do some more. You know, it's a little bit too much, and really what we want to do is actually reduce the distance, uh sorry, increase the distance between the trigger, reduce the intensity of the response, um, and then go back to using food again. So, again, it's the correlation versus causation. Absolutely. Is it the food? Is it the environment? So, there is do you remember when you came over, this is years ago, and Ruben was due his vaccinations, and I said, Oh, can you can you be the vet for me? And we'll just do a little warm-up the day before. Um, because Ruben had had Director Jen was in the house. Yep. Um, a little bit of backstory, Ruben had had a really bad abscess, it was so painful, we'd actually thought he'd fractured his pedal bone. So you can imagine there was a lot of injections and medical work. So he'd Ruben has a not a great relationship with needles. He's had a lot of medical stuff happen. So uh Barbara was over, and I was like, Great, I've got a nice training opportunity here. Barbara, be the vet, and we'll do some needle desensitization. And she was coming in really nice and soft and gentle, and I'm target training, so I do a fist pump. So I want Ruben to put his nose towards my hand, stretch forward, because his go-to is to rear. Um he's so nice and low and out. Yeah, he's an expert at rearing out of a needle. So we want nice long and low neck, soften the jugular so the vet can actually do what he needs to do. So we're practicing that, and it's all going super nice. And then I'm like, okay, Barbara, I need you to like up the ante here. I need you to stomp your feet a bit. Come on, be a big brusque man. Come on, come on, Horace, come on. This is proper director, Jen. You're not doing enough justice. So, like, I was being, I'm like, okay, we want to look nice and soft. We're doing training, so I I want to be kind and capacity coming in. And Jen was like, no, this is not how vets act. You were so straight. I could see you in the director's chair with the bullhorn, like, properly, like, absolutely not. Back out there. I need you to come in, you need to be more efficient, you know what I mean? Give him a good slap. Come in like you're a vet. And I was like, Oh gosh, that's okay. Yeah, I'll I'll go again, I'll go again. I think I think what I said was you it was like you have a job to do. Uh you are efficient, you have a job to do, you've got horses to see, you need to be. You gave me a backstory. What's my motivation here? Get into character, Barbara. You've got a lot, you've got a busy day, you need to get these injections done, and you are on the road and you are gone. Um, because I mean that's some but that's something we did at the sanctuary, like for the donkeys a lot, like to prep them for real life, is that like life is busy and noisy, and you know, professional people, like we do have jobs to do. Like you do, like, you know, if you're in a rush, you are walking with a heavier footfall than you mean to. Anyway, back to the actual story was got Barbara to up the ante, um, which he did perfectly. Um, I then was more focused on Barbara than Ruben and my hand placements. And no, it was the next it was the next day we did the training, and then the next day the vet came and and you were doing it, and the difference in him, he went, oh no, you're definitely a vet. I obviously wasn't good enough with my acting. Oh, and like literally, that's when like as as you hand targeted, because like he got your thumb, yeah, because he just went like yeah, because it was it was too much over threshold because you came over and you were like, Oh my thumb. So he clamped my thumb. So I didn't did a hand target, um, and he clamped my thumb. So Ruben latched full 16 hand horse latched onto my thumb and held it like a baby holding a dummy. Um, and I just stood there holding my breath, looking at the ceiling, like, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. Thanks very much. Thank you for injecting my horse. Really, I'll pay you, I'll pay you. Please pay you, please pay. I'll pay you, you know. Can you wrap bandage on myself? And the thing is, again, as it's a perfect example. I knew as soon as you were saying it's like, oh yeah, that is such a good example of what we're talking about because you know, you did the training under threshold, I did the training under threshold. We mimicked it as much as possible, but when it came to D-Day, we're just upping that trigger just ever so slightly. He didn't want to bite your thumb. No, it wasn't because of the food reward, it wasn't because of the training, it was higher arousal, higher stress history of vaccinations. And you know, even if you hadn't been doing hand targets and stuff, we would have had a different behavior, you know. And on that point, as people might not be surprised to hear, I am now a great fan of displacement biting for injections. So instead of offering a hand target, offer them something else. Because letting the horse bite something else, do you know what? Actually works really well. Because and actually it's a really common way of working with dogs as well for consent-based training, letting them latch their mouth onto something else. If that is what the horse feels the need to do. So Ruben feels the need when he's overstressed to latch onto something as opposed to rearing. Those are my options here. We either force him and he'll perform the rear, or his down four feet on the ground, neck stretched, he still feels the need to express his anxiety in that moment. And for him, it's to then put his teeth on something. It's not a big nasty bite, it's a latch. So now instead of using a hand target, I coil up the lead rope on top of my hand. So I've just kind of shaped it very small, I've not created a whole brand new shaping plan. And if he wants to then put the lead rope in his mouth during that needle, great. Because he's also still and the jugular is much softer, it's also and the vet is safe. Everyone's safe, nobody's getting hurt. I adjusted the training, I learned from my mistakes, nobody's perfect. But again, it's not the food that's causing that desire for him to do that, it's the situation. It just I'm gonna try and beautifully circle this back to the very start where I said about us exploring and using our hands as humans, and that's how we, you know, um you know, navigate the world. What do you do with a child or a loved one if they're going through a medical procedure? You hold their hand. Yeah, most natural thing ever. You gr you you grip something. You know, if you're scared and terrified as well, you grip the edge of something. We hold on with our hands. Again, that's more just me being poetic and philosophic, but I do think there's some nice parallels there. You know, I'd just say you know, being in that difficult position and needing something to hold on to, and that we know that horses explore the world with their mouths. Um my cat has made an appearance. Hello. Did we get everything, Jen? I think we did. I think so. Is there anything else that you want to do at all? Yeah, no. Look at us under two hours. That's impressive. I don't mean to be very we chatted for like a good hour before we even started recording. So I was up chatted, or did I just give out to you uh for about an hour? We'll call it counselling. It was counselling. Poor Jen. Um I had a fun day yesterday, that was all. Um but we won't go into that. Jen's already heard me say it once. Yeah, so mutual grooming, exploring the hent, medical issues, frustration, training, application. Hopefully by now we've convinced you about all the things that do cause biting, so that you can see those things all do. That one over there isn't the problem. It's not correlation versus cause, like it's not we're we're mixing the wrong things together. Yeah, it's not that. And if you are still thinking, well, no, my horse only bites me or gets nippy around food, please just tr just try it out for me. Just try and take a step back and really watch your horse in other situations around food. Are they anxious or super excited about getting their bucket of feed? Do they kick the door? Is there in do they nip and bite other horses? How are they communicating to other horses? How much forage do they actually have? I can guarantee you if that nipping anxious kind of needy, for lack of a better word, behavior is there in that situation, it will be there in other situations. And actually, it would be super nice for the horse if we could then address that level of anxiety in their lives because then they'd be an even calmer horse for you in every other aspect. So this is it, calmer, and the you know, we know that that level of stress and frustration throughout, you know, a horse's day in life has impacts on performance, longevity, health health in other ways, their immune system, you know. So you're actually doing yourself a favor if you can stand back. It's hard to do. You can stand back and try and be as objective as possible and go, okay, that has happened in the past. They do get bitey and nippy when I introduce food. But I'm just gonna try and step back and as Jen says, observe everything else, try and play a detective, try and be like, okay, I'm gonna look at this from a very scientific, objective, you know, perspective and just park my biases, you know, but like for the most part, like it's a difficult thing to do. It isn't easy, like it isn't easy. If it was easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Um but you're doing yourself and your horse a favor in the long term if you can do it. Absolutely. Behaviors very, very rarely happen in isolation, they'll be in other places. So promise. Great. Promise, promise, promise. Okay, well, that will do us. I think we've covered everything. Um do now I'm plugging. Do shoot us a message if there's anything in particular that you want us to cover. Um, you know, our I say look, go into the description. There's emails and websites and phone numbers, you can WhatsApp us, you can do whatever you like. You know, um, it's in the description of the podcast. If you have a question, send it on in to us. If there's something that you want us to talk about, you know, um, by all means, like by all means, by all means, reach out. I don't know why I said it that way. Could I be less inviting? What's wrong with the call to action? I was gonna say, this is not how we end a podcast, Barbara. Do we not have like a really fancy thing that just says at the end? Oh yeah, no, we've got dynamic sounds. That'll be record that. It'll do it. Yeah, it'll do it for us. You're stressing. Yeah, that's that's past Barbara and Jen who were who recorded that and they just go in automatically, so we don't have to do anything. So we can literally just stop talking abruptly. Exactly if we wanted to. There we go. Perfect. Okay. Abrupt end.