"Is There Such a Thing as the “Best” Way to Keep Horses?"

What does good actually look like for horses?

Not the version we’ve inherited. Not the version that’s easiest to manage. The version that actually meets their needs. It's tricky,

In this episode, Jen and Barbara dig into enrichment for horses.

We’re talking ethology. What horses are built for. What they’re missing. Why that matters more than any system label, plus how you can find the gaps and fill them Because this isn’t just “track vs traditional livery.” It’s about whether the life we’re offering lines up with the animal in front of us. The individual needs of your animal.

We pull in lessons from other industries, zoological collections/gardens (also caled zoos), cattle systems, places where thinking around individual needs and population-level welfare has moved on.

And then we bring it back to real life. Our horses.  Our setups. Very different environments, where we all struggle to find that balance. And how we each tweak, adapt, and work with what we’ve got, by understanding what needs are being met… and what still needs filling.

Because there’s no perfect system. But there is better thinking for us as humans.

Got a situation you’re trying to figure out? Send us a voice note. Your horse. Your question. And we’ll work through it in a future episode.

Real cases. Real answers.

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:53

I am waiting for the day that we hit record and one or either of us it doesn't record properly and then we do an amazing session that's like an hour long or something and then we realise that we haven't recorded it. Oh, it's guaranteed. I think I'll die. I'll die. I will die. And if this is this session, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Well see, I feel like because it's usually me who messes up technology, I will actually be so gleeful if it's you. Like I'm finally, finally, there's balance in life. Finally, Barbara fucked up when it came to tech. Finally it happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

There's an episode of I don't know if anybody's watched like Wiki Gervais and Carl Pilkington, where Carl gets in trouble for loads of stuff, but then his partner messes up the oven at some point in the house. And anytime he gets get like you know, he gets in trouble for something, he just goes, Oven. I feel like that would be our oven one. You would just be like, You fucked up the audio, it wasn't me this time.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, that would be it. And I'm already racking my brain to be like, is there a time? But I can't. There's honestly not a time where it wasn't me.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Yeah, technology is repelled by Jen um to the point of just hilarity. Like that'll be your memoirs.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm I take after my mother. We find the fault. It is genetic, it is genetic. Find the fault that you didn't know existed.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

So I wanted to start with a bit of a plug for this one while people are listening before they're cheap. After the grief you gave me last last one for plugging stuff. I do. Now she's the one plugging. But this is this is mutually beneficial. Um and also mutually beneficial.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

Go back and listen if you want to hear Jen sell out. Sell out. Plugging an episode. Plug, plug, plug. Yeah, it's true. It's very true. Um, so myself and Jen have been talking. This is an idea that we talked about back last summer. Um about trying to. Oh, you explain, Jen.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

I'm doing a very good job here. Having a listener voice. So your questions, guys. So clients, listeners, whether you're, you know, UK, Ireland, international, where actually I'm saying international, but where do oh I do I do feel like we I do think we've actually got decent reach at this point.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

We do, which is amazing, and I get very excited, and it's really good for our ego. So um at current count we have the UK, which is winning. So Irish people, can you please get on that? Because that cannot stand, right? You know, it should be at least 50-50, just saying. Um, and then after the UK, it's the United States. Uh, hello from America or to America, uh, Germany, Canada, Spain, Australia. We've got a couple in Switzerland, Switzer, Switzer, Switzerland, uh, sorry, uh, the Swiss, uh, Norway, France, like, yeah, it's it's awesome. So, yeah, it's it's really cool. We did have that one person who's now dead to me, um who went on holiday to somewhere really cool. Like, was it like somewhere in Africa? And I was like, oh my god, that's really cool. We've got to reach there, and you went, No, that's that's so and so. They just went on a holiday.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

They'd literally just gone on holiday. I was like, so if you do that, you're dead to me. So, not that we're not grateful for every single one of you, just saying that. Um, yeah, just saving it, make sure people don't switch off. But yeah, so the idea that we'd like to carry forwards is that you guys, listeners, voice note in, send us your messages. So if you don't want a voice note, that's fine, send us a message, email, text message, whatever. But we want to do a bit of a feature in this season, not season, because Barbara won't let me call them seasons, um, where we actually answer your questions directly.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

And I am more than happy, I would love a voice note because we do get a lot of emails, like we do get a lot of emails, and I I love answering them. Um, and if you sent an email, hello, um, you know, with just problems or issues, and it's great to get that because it means that we're actually doing what we set out to achieve, which is to try and create a community where we can all have a conversation. But but like there's so many questions that we get via email that sometimes get asked once, you know, more than once, um, and we try and integrate them into the podcast as much as possible where we can to answer those questions so other people can benefit from them. But I think it would be so good to have like a voice note, like if you're comfortable with sending it, and I'll give out my phone number now. Um, feel free to send a voice note, send like a message like to us, and we'd love to play it on the podcast. You can keep it anonymous if you want to. So my number is uh, and if you're international, or my international listeners, uh, it's plus three five three. You need to do that first, and then it is now I have to find it, Jen. I don't even know my own phone number. Uh OA5 1438688 and WhatsApp a voice note. I will put it into the description in the text uh in the podcast notes so you can you know find it there so you don't have to remember it.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Next one. So with that in mind, I think we do actually. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, guys, very cringe. Past Barbara has sent a message to future Barbara. Shall we hear what Past Barbara wanted to see?

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Listen, a little less of that attitude. Okay, here she goes. Hi, Barbara and Jen. It is Past Barbara here. Um, filling in for future barber, uh, longtime listeners to the podcast, longtime editor, uh loved podcast, otherwise, I wouldn't edit it as much as I do. I have a quick question about enrichment and ecological needs of horses. We've got lots of different types of yards, like we can do traditional livery, uh DIY livery, we've got track systems, paddle paradise, equential, there's all these different things, and we know that horses need forage, friends, and freedom. But how do we know what the best thing is for our horse? And how do we navigate that in other systems that we already have? And critically, is there a best practice? Is there the best way to do things? And and how do we achieve that? Um, so yeah, looking forward to hearing your answer. Um, I'm sure I will when I edit it. And uh yeah, thanks so much for listening to this. Uh again, love the podcast. Don't you love how I set them up to say that they love the podcast at least once or twice? Because we need that for our ego.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I love how you're talking to yourself, like, thanks, Barbara, thanks, love the podcast, Barbara. Looking forward to hear this, Barbara, when I edit it.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Oh my god. Any technologist, please feel free to do a deep dive into that.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Don't I have enough problems? Um don't they say show them one? Is it tell one, show one, do one? Right? So we told them, oh you told them, and now do them. Yeah, like you know, that's that's how it works. Um, so how would you answer Barbara's question there, Jen? Like, do you want to do you want to slag me a bit? No, no, do you want to slag me a bit more? That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Um no, I I feel like I've slagged you a fair bit, and we're only a few minutes in, so Ali is off. Um I'll I'll save it for off the record. Um yeah, what is best? Well, you know, it's actually one of those and one of those statements we get all the time. What's what's best for this? What's best for that? And it's a bit like, well, what's best for your animal is different to one, to others. But it's also like what's best is not a measurable term. You know, what is best? How would you define best? Is it the best that you can do in that situation? Is it the best that that yard can offer? Is it the best ultimate best for your horse? And then what's the best for your horse may not be the best for you? And I think this is why people struggle with it.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

There's too many variables, like there's so many variables, like you say, you know, you've just listed so many, and if we were doing that from like a scientific perspective, like that would be really hard to navigate. Um, I just want to you talked about human psychology there. When we talk about the best, that's coming from a very good place. You know, I want to do the best for my horse. So what is the best so I can do it? You know, it's coming from a very good, well-meaning place. Oh, I get you. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

I wasn't quite following straight away there. Um yeah, there's there's well there's well-meaning intentions, which is already a good starting point, yeah, for sure. I think there's also a a rod that people a rod for people's backs a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Where they're like, I want to do the best and I'm scared of not doing the best. Yeah, it's gonna say that when we can we can't define what the best is, so you're always setting yourself up to fail. Whereas if we can actually identify what we need, then we can actually start measuring for progress.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

Okay, so how would we how would we measure? Where do where where's the I hate using the word, I always say finger hole, and it's the wrong one. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

No, no, no, no, we don't we had this conversation, I had to correct you now. I can't remember. Oh, finger hold.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Hold finger hold hold. And I say finger hole, and Jen's like, Barbara, stop calling it a finger hole. So in critical letter, we need to change here. Really do, you know, so we need a finger hold to break down, I said that right there, um, break it down. So we got the individual and individual needs, and then we have the species at large. So, like what does the species need compared to that individual? And I think we have a really good grasp on what the species needs, but then we're limited by you know, temperature, weather, where's the closest yard to us, what facilities are available, uh, the genetic variables of that horse, like what we what we can do as owners, um, based on all of that, and that's when it gets really tricky. And I think you talked about the rod for people's backs when we say as a species, you know, we need this, right? Like, and we know that for humans, right? We need to eat healthy, exercise, have good sleep hygiene, you know, but then sleep hygiene goes out the window when you've got a newborn baby. So am I doing the best thing that I need for myself, or am I adapting to the variables in my environment?

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah. And I think an important thing to remember is that we have essentially taken what was once a wild animal and put it into captivity. So achieving the best for the species is always going to be a compromise. Because we are expecting an animal to live in essentially captivity, and I think that's always a strange one for people to if they haven't if you haven't actually thought of horse as being in captivity, then it's kind of a strange concept because when you think of captivity, I don't know about you by automatically think of lions and tigers and zoos and you know, all this. Um, but it is essentially an animal that was once upon a time free-ranging, you know, was wild, and we have domesticated it, and dogs are in captivity with us as well. We bred them into captivity, and when you actually start thinking about it in that framework, you can be a little bit more open-minded and going, okay, well, what are we doing for other animals that are in captivity? And start having a bigger conversation on well, where else in the animal kingdom are humans keeping animals in captivity and doing well? What are they doing that we might be able to implement into the horse world?

SPEAKER_04 13:24

It's taking that interdisciplinary like idea, you know, and even if we just look at like cattle, like I feel like um, you know, the last couple of conferences that we've been to about like animal welfare that you know cover a bigger topic than just like horses and dogs. Um there's every once in a while there's a presentation by someone who is managing dairy cattle or beef cattle, and they talk about like you know, weaning periods, you know, pasture time, like how we're taking care of them for their gastro-intestinal health and space and being in a herd. And when I hear that, I'm like, these are amazing points that I you know we could take as horse people and implement into I know they're not cows, but the principles are the same because they're looking at what the cow actually needs.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Um, like I used ice robotics cubes, um, which are the the fanciest pedometers you'll ever come across, and they're dairy cattle technology, and I use them in my master's research.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

So slow it down a bit. What do they look like? You said ice robotic cubes. So yeah, that was the name of it.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

So it's basically a leg strap, a strap that goes on the leg that has a little bit of a box, um kind of like a rubber band. Um you know the like you know that iPhone, I know there's other other mixer available. Um Apple Apple um watch strap that's kind of like that jelly rubber that kind of like there's like a pin and it kind of folds back on itself. Silicone? Yeah, silicone. But if you imagine like an oversized Apple watch for a cow, right? That's kind of what trademark pending. Trademark pending, but that's kind of what it looked like. Um but they have a three-way axis, so it tracked movement, um, speed, and line bouts, so it could track when an animal lay down, how long it lay down for, when it got back up again, how fast it was moving, how many steps per 15 minutes. And you could calibrate the data to show different stuff. It was really cool. Um, and that's only scratching the surface. They also have stuff where the cows, the same guys who are doing the same technology, would be able to put essentially like a necklace on them and track when they go to the feeding station, how much are they drinking, how much are they foraging, have like trap doors that open and close. So when the one cow walks up to the feeding station, they're provided X amount of ration, which is correct for that cow, and then once they're done foraging, it'll shut, walk away. The next cow will come in, and it's all calibrated. And so even though you've a herd of I don't know how many cows are in a herd, you can't. I mean, this doesn't go.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

You know farmers, so you're the one who should know this. Uh the people I'm talking to, please harass her. She doesn't know how many cows are in a herd.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Right, Jane.

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Right, Jane.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

I want to call her out. Well, as I'm just gonna say, Jane, if you're listening, please can you get Stuart to send us a voice note so he can educate us on cows? Because I we would love to have Stuart on the podcast. So there you go. I'm not gonna tell her that I've just called her out because then I'll know if she's listening or not. A little social test there. Sorry, Jane. But yeah, basically, that sort of tech is out there, and I know there are some yards out in um gonna say Germany, Holland area that are doing some sort of similar stuff, but okay, uh, other species are doing it better, and the idea so much better, and something that the zoos are doing amazingly because like social license to operate, right? The zoos were were losing theirs, and they had to adapt and they had to change, and then instead of it being penned, and they it became enriched enclosures and it becomes so much more you know, just better welfare for the animals, but it's better for us because then we can just see them and it gives you a better idea of what they should be in as well, like educationally. Um, but I think if we look at the zoos and the pressure they went through with their social license to operate, the equine industry could really sit up and listen and learn a lot because the zoos were almost losing theirs. The equine social license to operate is very much a topic, it's under threat. FEI is having to write papers and investigations. Like, if you're not aware of the social life, the SLO social license to operate about the equine industry, you need to learn about it because there is pressure on our whole industry, particularly equine sport. Um, and in recent news, greyhound racing has been banned in Scotland and Wales. Yeah, that's very recent. We just very literally just what last week. So animals used in sport is getting attention.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Right on the pulse, Jen.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Right on the pulse for once. Um so we need to take this stuff seriously. And if we look at the zoos, what are they doing? Like I say, these enriched enclosures, which you know, tracks and stuff are there is movement within the industry towards this, but I think there's more there's a lot more working.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

It's not quite there because uh what uh you know, just um were you talking about the the the ice block with the cows? Um just so people know a pedometer is like your Fitbit that that that tracks up-down movements, and then the gyroscope is your side-to-side, uh, if that makes sense. That's how they were able to track if they were lying down as well as up-down movement. Um how much was it, Jen? Is it something that people could have a play with, like themselves?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Like if they were just got them on alone.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Like then actually contacted um Ice Robotics for a whole box that we got like a box of like 40 of them or something.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

Just because like I feel like if people were listening to that, I know if like I'm quite a techie person, I'm like, oh, would I put that on my horse for the fun? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it something that people could do probably just be able to buy them? I've no idea what they cost. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

No, I did it through obviously Edinburgh, we just got them because I think they got it.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Oh, yeah, you're doing research as well. Research and stuff, which is fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

No, I just I just wanted to kind of I didn't want to interrupt you. Yeah, so without I'm very aware that we're probably going off on a little bit of tangent onto SLO, uh, as we always do. So what what what can we do, right? Um so what go on, Barbara. What can we do? Past Barbara asked a question, future Barbara, oh god, so much pressure.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Um so I suppose like you know, we need to look at what we're currently doing, right? And and and a lot of what we do is I think what's referred to, and you can you can correct me, Jen, um, it's it's called set stocking, um, where we go, okay. Traditional BHS says it's what's it 1.5 acres per horse and then one acre after that. That's the desirable, right? That's the pasture that a horse needs. Um and then we put them into is it half an acre?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

I've got a feeling it's half an acre per extra horse. And I always thought that was like, oh god, it's not a lot. Um sorry, I'm interrupting.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

Yeah, no, no, no, no. Even if it was half an acre and acre, I still you're like, you know, it's just kind of like do this simple calculation and you'll be fine, right? You know, um, so there's a little bit of that, and it's like, well, is that the best thing for the horse? Does that limit grazing? Like, what what are we doing to the grass management there? Um, you know, and then we have lots of different ways, like we can do like cross-grazing other animals, you know, to maintain the grass and stuff as well. But we then tend to take that acreage and then we go, okay, well, we'll put them into pairs or we'll do small fields, um, and then you know, they'll go out during the day and then they'll come in at night. Um, does you know, we have a conversation that we need to have about does that allow the land to regrow? Does that give the horses the best amount of food? Because they are grazing animals, right? And we're putting them in the field not only to meet their enrichment needs, being together with a herd, but also their nutritional needs. So I don't know if you want to talk about that side of things and where we struggle in Ireland in the UK with the type of plants that we have and the type of grazing that we have available to us, which creates other behavioural problems, and why we see an increase in you know, track systems, pat like you know, pat of paradise or whatever it's called, because we're trying to support a problem that already exists.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

I think I think one of the big issues that we face in you know between Ireland and the UK is what we've used the land for. And there's probably some historical relevance to this post-war about certain crops growing faster and needing to feed the nation. And you know, it's not that anyone's done anything wrong, it's just it's just the ground that we have ended up with now is particularly ryegrass, it's fast growing, and stuff that's fast growing isn't always nutrition nutritionally great. Relevant for that species, yeah. I mean it's good for cows and stuff, but again, it's it's fast growing as a fodder for cows. That doesn't mean that a lot of the posture past posture, a lot of the pasture we Have is um suitable for horses, and this is something that a lot of people are facing. I'm in Cheshire, like it's dairy country, Cheshire cheese, like yeah, it's everywhere. So there's a huge you know relevance to having the grass-free tracks as a way of controlling diet, because you know, you can you sometimes you need to go literally miles, like maybe like drive half an hour in one direction or more to get to different ground, but also you've got clay soil, sandy soil is a big issue. So where I am in particular, we've we've got really clay dense areas, and then a little bit further, not even that far, like 20 minutes, it's extremely sand, it's sandy, and now people are struggling with sand colic.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Oh, and also teeth, like you know, sand is really good for wearing down horses' teeth. Like, so we're looking at longevity and like in other welfare issues.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah, so it's it's very much an uphill battle wherever you are, which kind of takes us back to the start where we're saying that you gotta just do the best that you can with the situation you have, and I think if we're gonna do the best for our horses, it's gonna be a whole bunch of compromises because you might well be on, you know, rye grass pasture. So the compromise is do you move? You know, do you restrict diet? Do you strip graze? Do you go in smaller paddocks? You know, what do you do? So I guess the most helpful thing for us to do is to talk through what are some of our choices out there. And we recently listened to a really cool webinar by Dr. Jane Mayer, who is one of the founders of the Equi I mean I call it Equicentral, but actually the website's equicentric, I think.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

No, I think she does refer to it at like her, she does a lot, like a bit of background, like you know, she worked in Australia um during a time when there was a lot of invasive species, and obviously they've got a much drier climate, and you know, cows got imported, a lot of mammals got brought in, and they have marsupials and you know the ecosystem. So I think she worked there for a long time, so she has a lot of those expertise, but the equicentral system that she talks about is something that she's brought back to the UK, from what I understand. Um please correct me if I'm wrong, to help us in European and and British countries um to support land management and then also the ethological needs of that horse. Um, I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, and I think what it does do really well is talking about enrichment, is it provides a little bit closer to this enriched enclosure idea that you know the zoos have done really well, that we're looking to enrich our horses' lives as much as possible, not just mentally but physically, while supporting their diet. And part of the equicentral and very much the track system ethos is you know removing areas of grass, if not all the grass or areas of grass, um, and providing other fodder as well. And I do think that variety of fodder is incredibly important, whether you're on a grass system, whether that's fields, paddocks, tracks, or a grass-free track. You know, where we're talking about enrichment, it covers everything from mental enrichment, physical enrichment, dietary enrichment, um, social enrichment as well. And variety is one of the best things that we can do that actually covers a lot of things because having variety within an enclosure will encourage movement because they will move around to browse and have little bits and bobs, not continuously, but that's okay because Horshi horses are not meant to move continuously. It gives them mental stimulation of choice and a little bit of autonomy and decision making in their lives. I want to go here, I'll go here, I'll go over here. Having them in the social herds, a little bit of social enrichment there, and yeah, it's it's hard to do, but there are ways, and there were things that she said in the webinar that were really quite striking.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Move on to that. I just want to explore that that you said there, like multiple forage sites, because we do know from the literature that having different you even if you're in a situation where you're in a stable, okay, like literally this week they have rolled the fields, they put fertilizer down. So we've got a couple of days where the horses have to be in because we're preparing the fields for for the summer and the the spring and the summer. Um and it's a necessary evil, it's not our the best thing in the world, but you know, we understand. So we look at the science. If we are in a situation where we're there, we can reduce boredom, we can increase foraging times, and we can lower stress by providing different forage sites. So we can do a little bit of hay in one corner and a hay net, we can do a soul feeder with some hailage, we can provide them with chaff, or we can do other enrichment activities that like increase the activity. So if you put them in different corners of the stable or the area that you have, if you have a loafing area or a hard standing, put them in different areas, reduce the boredom, like and reduce stress because they get to then move and it stimulates natural foraging behavior for horses, you know. So even when we're you know, the ideal is there, but but there are other things that we can take from that and go, well, how can we make this less, you know, ideal situation meet what the horse needs a little bit more?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yeah, because horses never it did not evolve to eat one forage their entire lives. You know, they they are foragers, and you know, to plug one of our previous episodes about nipping and biting behaviour, I mean, half of it is them just performing natural equine behavior, which is foraging. And I won't repeat um what Barbara's earliest analogies, but they are foraging the human who may smell like different types of forage and foodstuffs, and it's not a bad behavior, it's completely normal and natural, and actually, if we don't provide enough of it in their environment and in their lives, it's uh a need that they are going to try and fill. And you know, you get horses chucking rugs over doors or buckets or chewing on head collars or eating the wood on the wall and all sorts of stuff, escaping, you know, or being overly playful or uh playful in a way that is seen as aggressive or seen as destructive, but actually dangerous to the human or problematic for them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or just you know, people don't like watching it and they just feel they don't feel it's comfortable. So the horse ends up put getting put in a single paddock, and then it's even lost even more of its needs because its diet isn't being fulfilled because it's on a single single grass type foraged field, a smaller area because most single paddocks are smaller, and it's lost social contact as well, and actually its life has got harder, then easier, and then you might even just get some learned helplessness. So it's trying to change our mindset of instead of restricting what we can do to add into the environments that we have, and there is a lot that we can do. So, one of them being variety in forage. So, no matter what you're on, whether you're in a dry lot, a track, a grass field, providing variety, whether that's hay, hailage, you know, maybe fencing off an area and planting stuff for next year, some horse-safe hedgerow, you know, investing a little bit of time there, or going out and about and do some cuttings, you know. Yeah, do you have gorse bush near you? Some blackthorn, some hedgerow. Um I love the gorse.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Like I love like what you you know, the the last yard I kept my own horse on, um, like it's the bog. We live in the bog, so there's loads of gorse. And when it got really good and overgrown, I would like drive down um into like you know, side lanes, if I could just grow onto the the road and then cut a bit, and then you know, make little enrichment things for for blossom out of the gorse. And even though it's a bit spiky, got you loved it. That neat thistles.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Well, there's something in gorse. Now I don't know where the I this is something that I just know, and I uh somebody can correct. I don't know where you know it from. Yeah. I just know where I've got it from. Um that some that the flowers of gorse used to be used as a natural remedy for depression. Really? And there's something in blackthorn or hawthorn, which might be the same thing, which can reduce blood pressure.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

That is suit because willow is where you know the you know paracetamol effectively came from, like you know, what we know today. So like um I once many many years ago um we had a willow tree. Is it willow? Is it willow, Jen? Now I'm doubt myself.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

I don't know, but and uh there's a lot, obviously a lot of our original medicine did come from plants. I'm not I'm I'm googling here because and I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that animals are self-dosing for medical issues, but I'm just saying that they do get something from them. From it.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Um yes, willow bark is a natural um you know, na natural like aspirin effectively. Um but yeah, we had a willow tree again. This is like going back like 12 years ago, and two horses annihilated it, like they destroyed the whole tree in the field, and then we found out later that one of those horses had arthritis. Um again, like yes, super interesting, and I think this is where that idea that they can self-regulate, but I do think there's a learned component to that. It's like, oh, I started chewing this, oh I felt a little bit better. Well, I'm gonna go and do it again, you know. I I do think there's a learned component to that, but we've gone down a rabbit hole as per usual.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Um well no, because we're talking about um types of enrichment, so that is dietary and that that's dietary enrichment that we can put in. So, regardless of if you're in a field, a paddock, a track, whatever surface you're on, just providing variety in the diet with natural things and things that last a length of time because especially this time of year, grass growth, you know, I hate this. It's the worst because it's very high in sugar and water, and actually it's not until it gets longer. And now Dr. Jane Mayer did say in her webinar what length we should be aiming for. 15 to 20 centimeters, she said, but not 15 to 25. Yeah. So if you're 15 to 20 centimeters, then that grass is gonna be more full of fibre, which is gonna fill their bellies more, but if we're under that, chances are they're essentially eating macadese all day, and they're gonna fill up and not actually but not feel full.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

But it's the equivalent of us drinking a glass of apple juice and eating an apple. The apple has fibre in it, so it's gonna help fill you up more. A glass of apple juice is the fibre taken out of it with just the water and the sugars and like and calories, and in a glass of apple juice there are two to three apples in it. But if you ate two apples, you'd be super full. If you drank four glasses of apple juice, you wouldn't be as full. You know, your your body would still want it, and that's where we want horses to be. We want them to eat, feel full and satisfied without just getting too much sugar.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah, and this is where I think you can we see a lot of behavioural stuff as well this time of year that oh, they're out in a field of grass, and you know, the grass is there, but they come in and they're acting like they're starving and they're pooling to the side of the road, and you know, they're snacking on the hedgerow as you're riding past, and it's because, yeah, but I know that it looks like there's a lot of food, but they're not getting the right stuff. And if they were in the wild or free ranging, they would be eating hedgerow, they would be eating bits of bark and wood to supplement. So if you see horses eating bark and they're eating, you know, fence posts, chances are is they are actually trying to fill a need for fibre, and that's a dietary enrichment that we can actually provide them. So making sure there is actually still hay around, which I know is a nightmare at the minute because hay is so expensive. I'm not saying it's a perfect world, hay has become very fancy.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Have you seen the price of diesel? I just um everything's everything's everything's expensive.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

But this is where having your horse safe plants and hedgerows and fences um sorry, not pay off in the long run.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

No, no, but they pay off in the long run. Like they do, because it gives your horse something else. I think something Jane said as well, which is good, you know, was something I kind of and you probably do it instinctively too, Jen, and I I did it too, but I think it's counterintuitive to a lot of people, is if they're out in the spring grass and we, you know, it's very short, we bring them in and you know we can see the big grass belly on them, and we're like, Well, I'm not gonna give you any food. But like if I bring my horse in, I usually give her a pile of hay to keep her occupied while I groom and do everything else. But she was like, It's actually a really good thing because it gives them more fibre, which means when they go back out onto that grass, if it's not ideal, they actually won't consume as many, you know, uh much of the grass, like because they're getting more of that fibre, because as you say, they feel more they feel f like fuller and those biological and physical needs are being met. Like we could talk about this for hours, like and we often do, because feeding enrichment is such an important part of enrichment and also how we keep and care for our horses, and but there are other things that we can do. So going back to you know, past Barbara's questions, what's the ideal? We don't have the ideal. Like we don't we know what we can do, we know what we we know what we're we're dealing with, and we're trying our best, um, no matter what system you keep your horses on, but there are other things that we can do to help enrich our horses um when we don't have an ideal situation, and on that note, plug in the fucking WhatsApp, send me messages, we have another message here. So if you're happy, I'll go ahead and play it. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I'm just wondering, do you find that different horses have different preferences for types of enrichment? Or should your horse like generic enrichment um all around, or do they have would you find there's a difference in one horse having a preference for one type of enrichment over another type of enrichment?

SPEAKER_04 37:45

So thank you. That was Susie Wolt uh from Ireland who was or was not forced to send us a message and we in order to we appreciate it all the same, Susie. Thank you, Susie, thank you, Susie. Um, you know, if I get nine o'clock this morning I'm like Susie, will you do me a favor? You send me a message. I didn't know people this. No, well, listen, the the veil is lifted. It looked like we were popular there for a second. You just our credibility just took a no side. Tanged, just tanged. I think we're still popular with Susie, to be fair. So thank you, Susie. And thank you for endorsing this madness. Um so I suppose for this, like, yes, and again, my really good segue that I destroyed. Um, there are a couple of different topics. I'm gonna list them um just for the sake of this. So we got feeding enrichment, which I think we've talked about, and we could just do a whole topic on that on its own. Like, if it's something you guys are interested in, please just let us know. We'll happily do it. Tactile enrichment, okay. So, like touching your skin, how we feel, like you know, we can go into that. Uh, structural enrichment, so the the layout of where the animal is, uh, which is smell, uh, auditory, hearing, and visual, which is your eyes, um, enrichment. And then we also have social enrichment. So I think we are aware of that very much when it comes to horses and other horses, but that is separate to animal human interaction enrichment. That is different, it is not the same as being around a social species, you know, social species being around conscious civics, and then cognitive enrichment is the last one. Um, so I was thinking, based on Susie's message, that we talk about those different types, and then you know, delve into you know what one might actually suit your animal best.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Yeah, and I think there was something in and I won't keep going back to the webinar because people can go watch it and do highly recommend they do, but there was a claim that she made, and I'd loved and I forgot to try and look for the research, and that was that more horses get injured by fencing than they do other horses. Um now, my apologies, I'm paraphrasing, I didn't write it down word for word. That is essentially what got said in the webinar. Um, and it was statistically, she said it was statistically significant that fences cause more damage to horses putting their legs through fences or having conflict through fences rather than horses actually being in the same field, and I forgot to I forgot to look up to see where that was coming from. So I need to I need to verify that, but I can actually see because we know this with dogs, right? The gate frustration, barrier frustration, yeah, that the inability to actively properly communicate can actually cause more frustration. And look, I'm a massive advocate for working in protective contact where we need to, um, because sometimes we have to do it for our own safety, but sometimes that can actually cause a lot of frustration. And when we're thinking about housing, it's very different to a training situation. So actually letting horses be in herds is one of the best things that I think we can do for a lot of enrichment, but it also meets the ground, um, so encouraging better grass growth and actually health for the ground because and this was again spoken about um is the fact that when we're in single paddocks and we have all these gateways, the horses standing still do so much damage to the ground.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

A standing at the gateway, whereas at least if you had a bigger field area, more opportunity for um variety in their diet. I know we've spoken about that one already, um, but social structures as well. But also then you have one gateway, so actually you're doing less damage to the ground. Um, it's a huge the whole ground maintenance side of things I found fascinating. Something yeah, I think I think every send us a voice note. We're not farmers. I I honestly, and it was the if it was the stats on the damage horses do when they're standing still. Yeah, to the ground.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Farmers hate horses, farmers hate horses, they really do. And like I see in my own, like, you know, I have my own fields, not my fields, but like where my horse is, like you see that poached land by the fence gate, and when she showed those photos in the webinar of you know implementing ethologically good, like you know, but based on the horse's actual needs. When she implemented her system, you didn't get that. And that when she did photos side by side, I was like, Oh, I like that, and and it's funny, like you know, yes, horses will graze for 12 hours plus or two or minus like 2.5, which is anywhere between 12 and sort of 15 hours, it's usually but what that means they're sleeping, they're playing, or they're just standing and and you know, relaxing. Do we want them to stand and relax and destroy the grass where we want it to grow? No, we we want them to do that somewhere else, um, and that comes down to like just good management and stuff, and and they don't really want to stand there, they're they're waiting for other interactions as well. Um, and this is what we can do that with the other things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah, it kind of comes into because it's different variety of surfaces, and actually, an enriched enclosure is one that has a variety of surfaces, and this is something that when I was at Donkey Sanctuary, I was gonna ask you. Yeah, every every paddock had a variety of hardstanding, uh bark or sand or a different all-weather surface, and then there was the grass. So we always had the option of giving them turnout on a all-weather surface of some sort, um, and I meant the ground got time to dry out, so in particularly wet days, if it wasn't safe to turn them out, or or on the concrete yard, we just had it was like gate city, yeah. So then different herds could be put out on the on the concrete or twos or threes, and you could put out some enrichment, and we'd put cones out, and they'd have to snuffle and find the the food under the cones or hay piles, and even if that's only like half an hour or an hour per little herd group, it's still enriching their day in the depth of the winter while maintaining the ground, so that come spring summer you actually have decent turnout, and then you can provide that enriched enclosure again because there's variety of grass coming through, so overgrazing ruins the environment for the horses as well. So it's it's so important, but that tactile of having different surfaces, what was really interesting is given given the option, you know, equids will often move onto a different surface for that loafing. They won't, if they're given the option to be on a Different surface to stand and chill out. They often choose something that isn't grass, and it makes sense, like it really does.

SPEAKER_04 45:02

Like, I don't want to sit on the same chair all day long. Like, you know, we we get uncomfortable, we want to move to different locations. You also don't want to stand all day long, it starts getting uncomfortable. It's funny, I had a client there last week where the horse kept running through fences, and they did the standard thing of being like we turned up the electricity, and you know, it was the usual sort of you know, it was the standard response of like, I don't think he respects the electric fence, right? Yeah, you know, that's usually what we hear. And I said, like, look, before I come out and have a look, can you just take me some photos of the grass and the field and the layout? Um, and straight away then I could see it. You know, the grass was too short, and what happened where it was was you could actually lead the horse around to the yard where there was concrete standing and there was like a windbreak where the stables were. And I was like, You've got a really nice opportunity. Instead of closing the the electric fence there, open it up like an L shape and run it down into the concrete where the yard is and close them in there. So instead of breaking through the fence, they can always come around onto the concrete standing, put a pile of hay there if you want to, and and just just tell me if that alleviates the issue. Any guesses, Jen? Yeah, yeah. Because you know, we gave them an option, you know, and control of the environment. And I do think if animals feel like they have more control over the environment, you know, then it reduces stress. Like I know if I know if I don't feel like I have control over my environment and I can't do things the way I want to, do I then feel more stressed? Yeah, probably. And I love, like you know, we've talked about this over the years, and you've told me examples from the donkey sanctuary. I love that they have those options that the donkeys themselves can choose. I'm gonna go onto gravel, I'm gonna go into the concrete, I'm gonna go into the grass, I can do all these other things, and you have mixed terrain and surfaces for that tactile enrichment for an animal. And if you talk to event riders who like our training event horses, like you know, at a really high level, they will say, like, I want my horse to learn how it feels underfoot when the going is good. Can they open up and and you know go for a gallop? If the if the going is heavy, you know, we want them to slow up, we want them to collect, we want them to be careful about their foot placement.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

Yeah, you know, and there's stats out there on reducing injury that horses that are trained on different um services terrains, yeah, have reduced injury rates, and that's not saying they're being trained at health or leather gallop speeds, that's just hacking and walking and just letting their body proprioception move and adjust, and you know, a little bit of a ditch here and there, a little bit of soft ground, hard ground, different scenarios, and yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

And it makes sense from an ethological perspective because if we go back to what the animal is, then we understand that horses moved over various terrain, rocky, sandy, like we know that they move over great distances, and that tactile feeling, which is you know, their hooves, they're you know, and their mouth, they're the two big, you know, ones that engage with things, and I think it's worth talking about how they engage with their mouths as uh from a tactile enrichment perspective. Um, but hooves are a big one, they can feel that they know how you know they get that feedback mechanism, and that is part of their natural ethogram.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

It's something sorry, staying on the tactile, even talking about dairy again. Oh, sorry, my dog just tried to eat the microphone. That probably's gonna sound really bad. Yeah, sorry, um, it's fluffy. She's having a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

If you end up peeking the microphone and I have to take down the audio, we'll be having words.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Oh no, she literally just went to grab the muff on the microphone there. I had to sit on the floor now because she's she's like, you guys have been talking for too long. Um is the scratching scratching posts? Yeah, like I think that is something that is missing from so many paddocks, yards. Because how let's be honest, how many yards do we go through go to and you see like post and rail, perfect size paddocks, unverted commas, perfect size paddocks, and they're just sterile, they're just boxes, and there's nothing in there. And then you get horses that are super itchy and breaking fences or rolling or rug wrecking, or even if they're in just oh, sorry, there's probably all sorts of noises going on in the background if you're gonna do apologise. Um adds to the character, right? Um, it does, they're rug wrecking and things like this, and I wonder how much of these are actually rug wrecking, or are they so frustrated that they're almost displacing their own frustration and not being able to itch and scratch by overly grooming other horses, and that becomes conflict.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

And then pulling it off. And we could talk for hours about how horses hate rugs, but Jen does. Uh John Jen loves them. Um, but let's not talk about that. But like you just made a really good point there about a sterile environment, sterile is the opposite to an enriched environment. And let's just talk about that for a second. So, like what we're what we're effectively getting at is a sterile environment is an empty room from a horse's perspective, you know. And we went feeding, tactile, structural enrichment. There's more there, like social companions. We might only tick like one or two of those boxes. It could still be a sterile environment. If I go into a room and all that's in there is a TV and some water, is that is that enough for me as a human? Like an enriched environment. Think about your own like house. I've got my art roomslash office, which is two desks with paint everywhere on one side and my laptop, you know. That's my little enriched environment, and I've got my living room, I've got my TV, I've got my Xbox, you know, love a bit gaming. Um, and then I've got food and water and everything else in the kitchen. That's an enriched environment for a human, right? What's a sterile environment? Maybe I don't have any of my art stuff. Maybe I just have TV and food. Oh, I hear you, Fia. No, I did, I heard that one. I'm a sterile environment. That is so cruel.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

It's so funny you're saying that, and I'm just thinking she's in a sterile environment right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

Well, we can always take a break and we can come back. So if you want to go and start fear.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

I think we'll I'm hoping we're gonna snooze. That was that was like a protest tire, John. We're gonna snooze. But yeah, like all like she's only wait, so we're in the office, so she's got one bed in the office compared to downstairs where she has couch. I know only one, only one bed, and she but she has multiple bedding sites and she has um multiple toys and enrichment activities, such as cardboard boxes and stuff to tear up. And I purposely don't have those in here right now because I can't have her making those noises in the background. Um but yeah, she's not got all her this is this, even though there's lots of stuff in here, essentially for her needs, this is quite sterile. And if this was where she lived, we would have behavioural issues. If this is where if this if this was her key home room and this is all I provided the puppy with, I would be getting behavioural issues.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

What is she seeking right now? Like, this comes down to our other enrichment stuff. She is an individual, and going back to Susie's question, Fia, you're getting picked on now since you inserted yourself into the podcast, like, is looking for a human-animal interaction. That is what she's looking for right now, you know, which I think we do quite well as horse owners. We we probably understand that, you know, be and the same with dog owners because we already do that, but it's actually can be a huge part of enrichment if we do it correctly. You know, Jen's not, Jen's failing as a thermopupping, and feels like, how dare you! But that's what she's looking for, and it's control of her environment, right? She has all of these other things, you know. She's got the back garden, she's got beds downstairs. You know, I know you gave her enrichment earlier. I know she went out to the back garden. We had all these other needs met, but she's in control of her own environment, and she's going, What I yeah, I heard you. Um, what I really want now, you know, and thank you for just helping us with the content, Fia, um, is a human-animal interaction. Like that's what she's looking for that.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah, and she's now she now has me on the floor, so we're we're getting something. Um, but it's actually it's hard for us to meet that sort of thing in the horse world. And I I honestly my sympathies go out to horse owners. I'm on a livery yard as well, and we're always at the mercy of the liver yard. You know, it's it's a luxury to be able to have your horses at home and have your old land, but it's also a noose around your neck because of most people in private yards, and I see this as well, is you reduce your numbers. And as soon as you're on your own rented space, um sometimes we don't have enough horses around them, and everything is a compromise. Um and I guess that's my overarching theme for this podcast is like just just be kind to yourself. We there's lots we can do. Like, I I would say the best thing that we can do is in get enriched enclosures because you can't magically have five more horses on your land if you don't have a space. Yeah, and lose kind of thinking. Yeah, and if you are a livery yard owner and you're managing a yard, I completely understand that some things need to be routine and standardized to make it fair because you're charging a price. I get that. Um, so there has to be compromises everywhere. So with the tactile stuff, um for me, one of the quick wins is providing opportunities for one variety of surfaces. Now that can be obviously quite cost intense, you know, putting down surfacing and planning permission, whatever else. Um, but scratching posts and opportunities for scratching and even doing a little bit of consent work. Um, oh god, she's found the paper. I've got paper, she's she's found, she's found the paper. I don't know if you can hear the ripping in the background. But but what paper?

SPEAKER_04 55:26

What paper?

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Like who Oh no, as in like it's it's a packet of paper for the printer. So it's paper wrapped in paper.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

Is it yours or Donald's? Oh, it's mine. Well, it's the office, so it's it's sorry, we're married, so it's our paper. It's our paper. Um so I've got a question, right? So I know we're kind of jumping around a couple of these different topics and all the different ones. Like me and Jen, where we have our horses, we've got like a perfect example of you know grass livery, right, with with Reuben. Um, and then I'll say my dog's finally decided to join me. She's not chewing any paper, she just went and laid down straight away and was a good child. Uh, just like that for the record. Um, she's she's also 11 years old and is like, I'm sick of your shit. So we are five months, yeah. So it's different. Um, whereas like I'm on traditional Irish livery of like, you know, they go out 24-7 during the summer and then they're in in stables and they get turnout during the day, like during the winter. And I think they're perfect examples of there's pros and cons to both of them, and we we manage them like day to day and weekly and throughout the seasons. Could you describe your setup, Jen? I'll describe my setup, and then we could probably go, well, what do we identify that they do get from that setup? What do they miss, and how do we combat that?

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Okay, so Ruben is in an all-gelding herd of about 10 horses. Um, I'm rubbish when it comes to acreage, um, but there is definitely enough for 10 horses. A lot of fields and and several joined together. Um, there are hards, big hard standing area that all ten can fit onto, um, but then there's also hard standing trackways on the other side of some hedgerows so they can get away from each other, two round bales, um natural shelter as well. Um so all sounds pretty awesome. Um, but the fact that just nobody can argue against is Cheshire's very flat, very wet. So yeah, there is mud. There's there is a lot of mud. There we do still have some grass, there is mud. So his needs are met.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

So give so give me yeah, give me pros from like just a very like a very imagine you were assessing him as a client, like you know, like you're going out and you're like, okay, cool. So we have social interaction, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:00

And he's got variety of age as well. So like some of his friends are the youngers. There's like some like young, like under five-year-old horses there, and he does he does hang around with them, but he does get tired of them as well. But there's some older ones in the herd, and he also has the space to remove himself. And I think that's always very important in herd living, is that Ruben is like he's going on 17, he's one of the older ones, and sometimes he's done with the quiet time, so he has that space. Tactile, he there's hedgerows and trees to rub against and scratch against the different surfaces for him to walk over, which is great because we've got the hard standing, we've some gravel, we've got the grassy areas, and there is mud, you know, and there's watery areas, which in itself is still enriching its variety, even if it becomes excessive.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Um and then just ad hoc, there is a small grassy paddock, which we can all use individually if you want to just feed your see. Say you don't want to take your horse up to the feet up to the yard. There's like a fenced-off little area that's kind of like a sick paddock, but if you're just short for time, like there's times I want to just give him a quick room, change his rugs, give them a quick feed, um, and I can let him have access to grass there as well for however long I want to stand there for. So there's a lot of needs being met there. Met. So where are the cons? Like the big con for me is when the weather hits, and and it's obviously getting nicer now because the ground's getting nicer. Um, having an older arthritic horse on cold, wet ground, uh I'm very aware, now I don't have evidence, but I'm aware that he's probably sleep-deprived in the winter at times, and that his body is working quite hard walking through he doesn't have to walk through all the mud, he can stay up in the hard standing, but he's going to move around to grassy areas. He wants to be with other horses, yeah. Yeah, and that can be quite hard work. And he doesn't always enjoy his herd mates, and he does move around away from them. Um, so one of the biggest compromises I make is I just I don't ride in the winter anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Because I don't want to, I don't, I genuinely don't think that riding him in the in those months it enriches his life. I actually think it just adds extra pressure that isn't necessarily needed.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

And this is where we talked about the individual needs of that animal, understanding the hierarchy ones and then the individual needs of the animals. But however, I would say you don't ride, but you also like you know do other cognitive exercises. Yeah, you know, there are there are other things that cognitive enrichment, you can still, you know, if you do bring them into the yard, you can do other things like okay, well, um, I'm gonna pick on fly spray, you know, because we know that that gets bad. You can go, okay, well, I'm gonna do an exercise where I do consent-based training with fly sprays, um, where you know, touch the bottle of fry fly spray, can I spray it? Yes, brilliant. Click treat. You know, he's got to use his brain, he's engaged in his brain. He doesn't have to do a lot of exercise for that, but it's still a cognitive exercise, and it helps you from a behavioral perspective later in the summer when you need to do fly spray. Um, I know there's other things that you do, um, and even just like going out for a walk with him, like you know, the the you know, you you have identified, okay, we've got like a nice structural system, we've got a nice structural dynamic. Um where can I provide the animal-human relationship and the cognitive bit of enrichment for him with those other things that we have based on his individual needs, based on his age, and the level he's at, you know. So there's the hierarch level of the ideal, but I also know what my horse individually wants and needs in order to have a happy, healthy life.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Absolutely, absolutely, and I've been in I've been on so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

This is gonna peek this this audio is gonna peak like fucking crazy. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Yeah, there's also been times I've been on yards where I was really happy and I really liked it. He was losing his mind, yeah, you know, and he's running through fences and all sorts, and he wasn't happy, and there wasn't enough forces around, and even though the grass was better and the ground was better, and there was like no mud, and there was good you know, stabling, even a field shelter, like he could live out on grass livery and have a field shelter and have a field friend for him, big visual horizons. So the environment itself didn't suit him. And I was such a tense, spared horse, and no amount of training would have really fixed that because the environment didn't suit him, but it suited me, and that was a big compromise and move. But since we've moved and he's happier, even though I actually ride him less, I have a far less stressful horse ownership experience, and he's healthier for it as well, and it's nicer for everyone, and as you say, this is like something that I think, like you know, one of the things we didn't want to do, you know, during this podcast was go, you know, like oh, track systems are brilliant and they're the ideal.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:13

Oh, livery systems turn out full self, they're they're the perfect world. There's the perfect world of what we know about that species needs, but you know, we can have a look at that and we need to break it down to what that individual has, and then ask the question of where those gaps are. Um, so if we were to reverse that, right, you know, and ask where blossom is, um, so like I and I alluded to at the moment, you know, she is in a stable at the moment, um, and she's probably going to be in today and tomorrow, which is less than ideal, unless they're fertilizing the land and rolling it. Um, it's a traditional turnout, like you know, traditional livery, so in at night, out during the day, in at night, out during the day, and then during the summer out 24-7, you know. Um, so when it comes to like her needs from a structural perspective in the stable, like I do lots of things in the stable to meet her feeding enrichment, so I do multiple forage sites. Um, I have interactive foraging that she enjoys. Uh, I do these holio boys uh toys, um, which are actually a dog toy that I've hang up and you know, and I do various things in the stable. I also have scratching posts in the stable too, um, for her to be able to do all of that, and she's on concrete and then also shavings, and then gets the turnout, you know, and that's me going, like, okay, I know she's gonna miss some of that. Um, and talking about individual needs, like, you know, if the only thing you give my horse is scratches, she will be fucking happy. Like, it's the one thing, like if you just brush her, like to the point where it's like it's like rake my skin with metal, that's what I want, you know. She really wants you to get in there. Um, and part of that is because during the winter, and I understand this because of the limited turnout, we're missing those social needs, right? So, can I provide that to her in a way that she has control over her own environment? You know, so I built scratching posts in her stable, and she's actually broken them again, she breaks them every year. And this year, Jen, I think I sent you a photo. Do you remember the photo? No, uh, it's like I I did the scratching posts on this steel rebar, it's this massive steel rebar, and she has scratched and I put load of scratching things on it so she could get in there and scratch as she wanted, um, whenever she wanted. She has literally scratched it so much she has bent a steel rebar over, like it's completely to the ground. I'm like, how the how the hell did you do that? You know, I was like, I'm glad you're enjoying it. But but again, it's like appreciating that this is what we have, you know, all the systems in Ireland are very similar. This is where I have to go to, like without driving two hours down the country, like I don't have anywhere else to put my put my horse because we're a smaller population, you know, without being hard on myself to say, well, you know, oh, this isn't good enough, you're not doing the best for your horse. When I appreciate and understand what my horse needs, how can I provide that enrichment that supports her ethological needs based on her individual requirements, you know? And one of the things that she loves doing from a human interactive perspective, and that we do, um you know, quite a lot is go for walks together. You know, I get the mileage in there, like not necessarily riding, she's had two surgeries and I'm a bit old and curmudgeon. Um, but like I will quite happily take my horse for like a one. To two hour walk, like when we're good, we'll do 12k. When we're bad, we'll do three to five K, like in hand. So we're getting that movement, and you know, I'll stop and let her graze, and I call it the hack and snack. Um, and I enjoy my time with her together, and she enjoys it too. And we're meeting those movement needs over different structural terrain, and sometimes we'll go into the forest and walk over ditches, and you you talked about the different structures with you know that that you had at the donkey sanctuary, so I try and fulfil them in that way um as much as I can. I would love to get a mirror in the stable. I was thinking about that at some point, um or something for them. I know. I come on, please do. Like I we talk about it a lot as a way of creating social interaction, but what's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

Well, I mean, this is anecdotal, but I've been called out for quite a few cases now over the last few years of horses becoming extremely aggressive to mirrors, and it makes perfect sense when you're walking. Yeah, yeah, but even even just even on a more basic level than that is it's a mirror. So if a horse is in a stable, which is a confined space, and they feel threatened, they give a distance increasing behavior, so maybe an ears back, a pain, a facial expression that says, Hey horse, move away from me. And what happened in the mirror? The exact same express oh sorry, the exact same expression is just a straight back. We found an envelope. Oh, we found an envelope. An envelope is really not an ideal one.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

Um this is Jan's parenting, you know, just you know, yeah, current, our current state.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

Our current state of the play.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

Um, but yeah, so when hold on. So I just want to interrupt to explain. So I've had messages of Fia ate a lot of cherry stones, turns out they're toxic. We're going to the vet. Oh, cyanide. And a friend. Yeah, the cherry stones are full of cyanide. And then and then the next one was, you know, she's having a great time in the garden, she's doing great. And then, oh dear god, she's digging up all my garden and she's eating a load of bulbs, and I'm like Which are also toxic.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

Oh, I forgot to tell you, yeah, last night there was a cat in the garden, but the cat was on the other side, so I've put like dog fencing in the garden to protect like the borders. And the cat was having a great time because it knew it was on the other side of the fence. She was terrified, absolutely terrified of this interloper in our garden.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

How dare she?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Yeah, I know. Oh, yeah, we're talking about you for you. Oh, talking about you. She's like, My envelope's gone, and we're back down. But anyway, going back to the mirrors, is that if you have a horse giving a distance increasing threat and it's just getting thrown straight back at them, then they're gonna escalate. Then the horse in the mirror escalates, and then it's just uh it's just two horses going at each other with no brakes, no there's no disrupt no um calming signals, no appeasements, there's nothing there that's saying break. And they don't know, I've not seen a horse show any evidence that they know it's themselves in that mirror.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:03

Well, this is it, it's like what's the name of the the term um object permanence? Like it if the horse doesn't have the uh you know, it's like when you look at when you have a child and you show them a mirror, or you go peekaboo with a child, and they're like, Oh my god, mammy's disappeared, you know, and then you go peekaboo and then they're like, Oh my god, they're back. They have no concept of object permanence at that age, which is why that game is so fun. So, do horses have that ability to conceptualize object permanence? Um and I think this is what comes back to the whole enrichment thing is there's the higher level, we'll try and round this off because I don't know how long we've been talking for. Um, there's the higher level forage friends freedom. Okay, they need social interaction, they need to be able to, you know, hear things, smell things, see things, they need structural and tactile parts of their environment to have an enriched environment. None of us live in an ideal environment. Jen says, on paper, you know, it's great for Ruben, but the individual is what matters. On paper, mine is not ideal, you know, but my horse thrives in that environment because I do other things to support her. And that means that that that should give you some faith to go, do you know what? Wherever I am and whatever facilities I have available to me, it means that I can take those principles and make sure that my horse thrives based on their individual needs.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think my biggest takeaway from all this would be multiple enrichment activities. So one stable toy or one little thing here and there is not enough. It's like we said, it's a sterile room with a TV on its own. A TV is not enough, it's not actually providing that much, it's variety and autonomy. I think one of the things that we miss in all of this is autonomy, control over your environment. Which Fia again is demonstrating as she would very much like to leave the office. And we're going to, we're going to rub it. We're going to be very quite clear if she'd like to leave this office. Um but having choice with over an environment or within an environment, and that comes from different enrichment opportunities and choices that they can make. Allow them to have an environment where they can make choices, I think will keep you safe. If you can do that, you're you're hitting a big green tick.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:33

Yeah, 100%. And I speaking about cognitive enrichment, you know, besides from going for like a walk with my you know, horse, like I'll go into the arena and do what I call Coney poly, um, which I have traffic cones and then poles, and we do some target training and I move them to different places. There are days when I go in there and she goes, No, I don't want to do you saw it before. Do you remember when she was like, I'm not playing Coney Poly? And then went, I'm doing over here. Like, and I'm like, Brilliant, great. You're off the lead, you're not on a head collar, you're not on a lead rope, go and have a roll over there, or you know, look and you know, have a look at this visual horizon, or trot around the place. I took her in the other day and I tried to do it a few times, and she just went head shake and then trip trot over, went for a roll, and then decided that she was gonna eat some grass inside of the arena. And I went, fine, we'll do that instead. Like control and autonomy as much as you can, like where it is safe to do so is our you know, to the lawyers, no act.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because life with no boundaries also is not safe. We're not we're not saying free will with no consequences. There's consequences in life and boundaries exist for a reason, but it's when they're in their downtime, let them have choices, let them have autonomy as much as you can. You know, if if you don't if they're not in a situation where they have to perform, and I'm not even talking about sports performance, I'm talking about when the vet is there or when they need to be turned out by the yard staff. For me, that is all a horse who needs to perform a certain task in a certain time frame. There are many other hours, many other hours in the day where we could be saying, right, you're in your own time now, make your own choices. This is your f this is your downtime, and that would do so much for their mental health.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:22

100%. Did we do a podcast? Fia, did we do a podcast? Now she don't talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

I'm getting the silent treatment now.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:31

She's like, Well, if you call that a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

Well, she's just staring at me now. I'm getting the the hard stare, the herding, the herding dog's coming out now. She's getting the stare at me.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:39

She's just like, if you think any of that is usable, you would um okay. I hope I hope you enjoyed this, guys. Um, I think that's probably us. Um there's loads here as as you as we've alluded to. Um if there's anything, I'll do another plug if you've managed to make it this end, like to this end. Um please do send a voice note. Like we would love to hear from you. Um you can have it anonymous um or you can tell us where you are and who you are and ask us a question and we're gonna put a couple of them together and answer your questions. Um anything else, Jen? Do you want to plug any anything?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:22

No, I I'm good for plugs. I think you've you've used the plug allowance for this episode. Have I? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:28

I I I feel I feel seen. Um, cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:34

Um yeah, do you want to sign us off? Um thanks for having us, guys. Thanks for listening and looking forward to hearing from you all.