"When do I know when it's time to stop giving food rewards?"

One of our listeners got in touch with a question that comes up a lot when people start exploring positive reinforcement training:

"When do I know when it's time to stop giving food rewards?"

It seems like a simple question. But the more we talked about it, the more we found ourselves asking: Why do we want to stop?

If reinforcement maintains behaviour, what happens when reinforcement disappears?

And why are we so keen to remove a tool from the toolbox when it's working?

In this episode, Jen and Barbara get into:

•  why behaviours stop when reinforcement stops 
•  when behaviours can become self-reinforcing 
•  intrinsic and extrinsic motivation 
•  antecedents and how reinforcement changes over time 
•  how our animals are often training us as much as we're training them 
•  why we don't ask the same questions about reins, leg aids, or other training tools 
•  and whether the real question is not when can I stop reinforcing? but what is maintaining the behaviour now?

Along the way, Barbara talks about living in the "clicker closet", why she owns more treat pouches than any reasonable person should, and how this is apparently balanced out by Jen's rug-buying habit. (We're not convinced either.)

Because sometimes the answer isn't to stop using reinforcement. Sometimes it's understanding what reinforcement is doing in the first place.

—

Got a question you are burning to asking us, nothing is off limitis, or do you have a behaviour issues you’re trying to figure out? Send us a voice note. Your voice, your question, your community is here.

Real cases. Real answers. All madness (guaranteed, the madness bit anyway).

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

0:01

Hello, hello. How are we today? Still warm. Yeah, still warm. So warm. So we are continuing on our journey of answering questions. And just straight away, like thank you so much. It's been really nice to have this direct kind of connection to the listeners and our clients in a different format because it lets us know, it lets us know what you want to know, really. And I'm just it's just really nice hearing your stories and yeah, I'm enjoying it. Seeing how many people enjoy bullying gen as well, you know, just just generally seeing that. It's like, yay, other bullies, bullies unite. I mean, so not the ethos that we're trying to develop here in the slightest. No, it's not. Sorry, yeah, no. I'll cut that, I'll cut that. I won't. Anyway, today's question, uh, just to prove that we are capable of doing anonymous, so please feel free to do that. We have an anonymous question today. Um, Barbara, do you want to read it out for us? Yep, so you guys can just text in or WhatsApp. You don't have to do a voice recording if you don't want to. So, hi Barbara and Jen. I've been following the podcast for a while now. Um, I decided to give positive reinforcement a go with my horse. Question that I have is when do I know when it's time to stop giving food? Thanks so much. Looking forward to hearing your answer. Nice and simple, short and sweet. I love it. I love it, especially when our brains are a little bit fried from the heat. So this is actually something that I don't know about you, Barbara. I come across this question in a variety of different ways, but the crux of it is people think that you know, I've been doing food rewards. I I to be fair, I think I sometimes explain positive reinforcement and food rewards a little bit like scaffolding, it's supporting us to get to final destination. So there's definitely this mindset of like you know, taking the scaffolding away, and there's definitely ways of refining how we use food. But my question in reply to the question is when do you stop using your leg aids? I know that's it's the go-to. It's like, you know, it's it's like if you're if you are happy to stop using negative reinforcement for your leg aids, then you're probably not writing anymore. Well, I would assume you're just not gonna do it. So, you know, I mean that's a really bad example, but like, yeah, you don't stop using them. You might refine them, you might make them lighter, you might, you know, be able to train a longer self-carriage, but that actually goes back to your scaffolding, which is about shaping. So it's still this it still works because scaffold, you know, shaping plans are scaffolding. So you might have to go one for one with positive reinforcement and food rewards to begin with, you know, and then you might build in duration. We talked about, you know, um distance, uh, the three D's, the five D's before and that refinement in previous podcasts. Um, and we're kind of doing that. So, you know, you can effectively start extending the amount of time, you know, the horse can perform it things for longer before you deliver a food reward. Just like if you ask your horse to walk on, they can walk on, and it's what we should be aiming for for a long period of time before you, you know, ideally give another aid. You should be asking able to ask your horse to walk and they continue to walk until you ask them to stop. We don't want to be constant in agony with our legs. So that would be nearly my argument as well, is like we want to we want to refine all of our training, whether it's positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement, to the minimal amount that we need to do so it's the least intrusive so that they understand what they ask is. And then to be devil's advocate, you can stop whenever you like, but you're not you're not reinforcing anymore. And we always have to go back to learning theory positive reinforcing, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, it's reinforcing the behavior so that it happens more and it continues to happen. If we don't reinforce, there's no consequence, there's no outcome for performing a behavior, it will eventually go extinct. Because what's the point in performing it? So obviously, when a horse in the repertoire, it's just it's just not needed. I mean, let's just let's just hypothetically say that we've taught the horse Spanish walk, right? There's really no purpose to it, you know, at all. It's a trick training, it's some it's just something nice to do if you want to enrich the horse's life and do something bonding and just something novel. Like, I'm not I'm not having to go at training horses to Spanish walk, it's fine, but let's just pretend that you then never reinforce that through negative or positive reinforcement ever, and you only put it on cue. Eventually, the horse won't perform it because there's there's no point to it, there's no there's no motivation to do so, and that is the kind of very blunt answer to when do you stop positive reinforcement? You can stop it whenever you want, but the motivation will also dwindle. I mean, I always get this question quite a lot, both with the dogs and the horses, so it's it's a really common question, like across the board. Um, and you know, as Jen says, it's like you can stop whenever you like, um, it's just gonna dwindle. But you know, what I usually say to my dog clients, because it comes up a lot with dogs, you know, because they're like, Oh, you know, I'm we've got reactivity case with my dog, and we're doing, you know, LAT training. I look at that, trying to, you know, do counterconditioning and uh systematic desensitization with the dog so they're less stressed on a walk and the owners are bringing treats to them, and they're like, When do I, when can I stop bringing treats with with me? You know, um, and yes, we're gonna use a lot more at the start of a behavioral modification, as I say, but like what I always say to them is like it's it's we're trying to remodel the brain, so we need something else to be there in a case of behavioral modification, like outside of outside of training. Um, and when it is a training element and we want our dogs to continue to perform that behavior or our horses to perform that behavior, you know, we have to think of it more like a payment because it is a reward, hence what's called, you know, it's it's a reward, um, it's a food reward. So if we want to continue doing our jobs, or if our employers want us to continue to do our jobs, and they just went, When can I stop paying you as much? You know, are you gonna continue to do that? And that's usually say, and that that, you know, I know it's uh slightly facetious for the sake of you know, um making the point, but like it usually has that reaction, you know, the clients kind of go, okay, yeah, fair enough. You know, it's like we don't philanthropically, yeah, because it actually it taps on to something else I was just thinking there was you can stop paying if the action is self-reinforcing, forcing, yeah. So if there is, if there is enjoyment out of an activity, so for example, you know, saying on the dogs, like I I don't do ball throw at all, and we're not gonna go down that rabbit hole. It's not a rabbit hole. If you know, you don't. Um, but like I just sometimes when I need fear. Hold on, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's not a rabbit hole, it's a German shepherd hole, no, uh lab hole. No, that's oh, both of them sound awful. What are you doing? I'm I'm trying to come up with a pun, but it's not working. Sorry, continue. I'll come back to it. Okay, well, thanks for that segue. Um you're okay. Um yes, sorry. So sometimes we'll give her a ball in the back garden and she will play with that herself. It's self-reinforcing. There's no human involved. We're not playing catch, we're not playing fetch, I'm not teaching anything. It's an activity that she is performing because she finds joy in the activity, and horses can do the same. Like horses can play with toys. We've there are all sorts of things like horses can sometimes pick. Oh, do you know what? Uh, actually, there was a horse. There was a this is a wild. You can do it, but I can't. I love that you're like you just you derailed yourself. I'm not getting blamed for that one. No, because it's the same topic, same topic, right? There's this this yard I go to, and there's the show horses, and they very often have these covers on their tails, and they have the whole hoods and stuff turned out, like they're getting turnout, right? But they're like fully clothed, and I'm like, do you know what? At least the horses are getting turnout. Um but as I was driving past, one of them had pulled the tail cover off the other one and was just flinging it around like a windmill. It was brilliant. I was like, that horse is having fun. So it is possible to not have a food reward if whatever you're doing with them they find enjoyable. You know, that that's where your motivation is. That the fun, that the self-reinforcing, that then you don't need the food reward. But that is incredibly, incredibly hard to achieve between a horse human species like that. It's just it's that's just really hard to do, to be honest. Yeah. It's we step here into your intrinsic and extrinsic. Thank you. I couldn't think of the words. You're welcome. Um, and also uh uh counter-free loading, which is a little more complicated. And if you guys want us to talk about that, we can absolutely do that. We might dive into it in this, but um, I feel like that nearly deserves its own um maybe on a cooler day. Yeah, our brains are are melted, lads. I couldn't even think of it. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't come up with a good pun. Like, what's happening to us, Jen? I don't know. I'm scared of where your puns were going there. Yeah, I know. Both of them sounded awful. I'm not gonna edit it, I'm not editing anything today. Oh no, don't. Um we don't edit anyway. Yeah, it's like literally minimal effort. Um, yeah, so you got your intrinsic and your extrinsic motivators. Like a lot of what we're doing with positive reinforcement, whether it's for a dog or a horse on a very surface level is extrinsic, you know, because it's external. We are giving them a food reward. There's also you can argue that there's an intrinsic motivation because the animal wants the food as well and they're motivated to have food, you know. So you can you can go as deep as you like, you know. If you really want to, you could also say that positive reinforcement is also negative reinforcement. Um negative punishment. No, and you can you can say it's also negative negative reinforcement. So if you have like pressure, right, is being applied to your stomach because you're hungry, you're applied to pressure. Okay, you then eat food, it removes the pressure, it reinforces the behavior, but it's also positive reinforcement. Like, do you know what you can go into it as deep as you want, and more pedantic people than me have and will do. Um, so either way, it it it's more just that is to kind of let us know that these things don't appear in isolation. So you could be doing something that you very much think is extrinsically motivating for your horse or your dog in that my dog sits, I give them a treat reward, my dog sits, I give them a treat reward, you know. Um, and there may be some you because the internal state for that dog is so hard to understand, everybody has a different internal state. That internal state for that dog is like could come from like a long line of of you know, show or working dogs that are highly intelligent, and you know we have bred them to want to perform certain types of you know, learning and obedience one because we bred them that way, like you know, intrinsically motivating and also like extrinsically motivating for a dog is you know, sniffing, like it is still a positive reinforcement, and for certain types of dogs who we've bred to be scent hounds, there's also a real intrinsic element to it as well. So they may continue to do it as they want to. Um, and again, to continue with dogs, if we bring that into behavioral modification, again go back to my dog who's scared of other dogs on the lead when they go out walking um with their owners, and we do the behavioural modification. They, you know, a lot of the time, and you get this too, I'm sure, Jen, when we're talking to dog owners, the dog owners turn around and go, like, but they love their walk, you know, they love putting like get all excited when they're going out, and then we're out, they're terrified of other dogs. You know, so that you know, there's the you know, so and it they might well be true. So if you're able to get to a point where you're able to do the behavioral modification and you use positive reinforcement, whether that's work rewards or whatever happens to be, to change the emotional, you know, feeling around seeing other dogs on a walk and change that so that the dog feels more confident and comfortable, then that could be a time when you go, well, maybe I don't need to give food, maybe I do it every once in a while, because as you say, it'll go extinct. Or maybe you have finished the modification and at the you know, tell me, you know, and I no longer need to do that, you know, because the dog already now finds the walk fully intrinsically motivating and gets their sniffs and everything. So, but again, it's shaping and fading. Um yeah, I can think of an example. There's a horse client in particular where a lot of x-rays have been needed, and we did a lot of target training for hooves onto wooden blocks, and that was heavily supported through positive reinforcement initially, especially because there was a lot of medical concerns going on at the time, so the horse wasn't feeling its best, but over time that has become a behavior that the horse you put a wooden block now, the horse pretty much just pops itself on and is happy to work for scratches or just relax and will actually quite happily stand with a leg on a block for quite a long extended period of time, and that is where we've actually, like you say, managed to countercondition the situation. And when wooden blocks come out, there's a positive association with just the presence of that environmental stimuli that the horse is like, Oh, I can do this and I feel good about it, and actually nothing else really needs to happen. So if you are able to, whatever activity you're doing, get to that point where you've actually completely and utterly changed the effective state with whatever you're doing, then well, you're kind of tapping into that intrinsic motivation, especially if the horse or the dog or you know, whatever species we're talking about associates said task with a state of relaxation and comfort and safety. Yeah, maybe you don't need the food rewards anymore. It's a bit like harness training. If the dog genuinely enjoys what the harness predicts, then maybe you don't need the food reward to lure the dog into the harness, but then they're still being they're they're still getting a sense of positive reinforcement in the activity for whatever the harness is predicting next. So because it's an antecedent for something else that's going to come along that's gonna be positive reinforced. So, like, you know, this is it. It's like we can think that we're we're stopping providing a reinforcement schedule, whether that's I know in this case the question was like when do I know what time to stop giving food? Um, but we can think about any reinforcement schedule. We might think that we're stopping, but we might not actually be stopping, you know. We it might have just changed its shape and its, you know, like it can happen all the time where it just it changes and develops, and we think we've stopped doing something, but we're actually still doing it. Yeah. Um, you know, we've inadvertently either the the horse, the dog has kind of trained us or we've shifted and you know evolved into a different pattern. The other thing I would say for this question, and then I'm not, you know, this isn't a an accusation of any description as well, um, but why do you want to? Like, and feel free to to message again and reply to, you know, like I will I will answer that quite happily. Um, you know, if you have any questions, but like, but you know, I don't know about you, Jen, but like betraying horses with food rewards for a long time now, you know, and I know I joke that like I used to be in the clicker closet. Uh feel free to take that, guys. Just please credit me with it. Um, where I you know was embarrassed about doing it and he used to hide. Um, but I was still doing it. Um, and I do think that's still very you know applicable to a lot of people who feel embarrassed, and I and I not to again I don't know about you know this person's situation, but I do, you know, other people, this is definitely the case, where they feel embarrassed, yeah, that they're still using food rewards, so they want to stop because it's not accepted in their community, less so with dogs, and still there with dogs, more so with it's still a little bit there, like it it is, it's just it's not as pervasive as it is with horses, a reel going on at the minute, being like, what happens if you're out on a walk and you ran out of food? And I'm like, okay, what happens if your shock collar runs out with battery? Like, seriously, it's just I don't know the way I would try and frame it to everyone who is using positive reinforcement, you're on a higher level. You are actually on a higher level of working with animals in a consent-based, ethical way, which is ahead of the curve. So it's not a case of it's not a case of I need to be working. It's like you're on a higher level, you're doing more than other people, you are more educated, you are more aware, you have learned a whole other asset, a toolkit. Yes, your toolkit is bigger and more diverse and more skilled. Yeah, how cool is it that you know how to do this? Other people who don't know are the ones who are like, Why are you doing this? You know how to do it. You are you are higher. That's this is more. Yes. Everybody else, why would you lose it? Everybody else only has a hammer, but they also have nails and screws. Yeah, you've got a hammer and a screwdriver, and you've got nails and screws, so you can decide which one you're gonna use in each situation. You've got to start the hammer. Gorilla glue. This is the end of my own. My analogy was perfect. Jen, try and try and hammer screw into something and see what happens, you know. Like, so why would we want to get rid of something else that helps? Like, do you know? I both me and Jen have trained both of our horses with positive reinforcement. Like, I've had Blossom for seven years now, you know. Um, she well and truly knows pretty much everything that I want her to know with positive reinforcement. But every time I go out for a hack, like every time I go, you know, go and do something, I have my nerd pouch on with full of grass pillows. Like even the fact you're calling a nerd pouch. Yeah, I know. I always cut, but that's me, I find it endearing, you know, more than anything else. Um, you know, but yes, exactly. Like it comes from that. Like I'm more I'm more taken aback, if that makes sense. Because people are like, what's that? And I'm like my nerd pouch because I'm a nerdy girl. Um, you know, it's just like it's just taking ownership of it, and I'm like, well, it's mine. I'm like, I like calling it that. It's my thing, you know. Um, like, and then that's it. And none of the thing I don't really need most of it, like when I'm out there. Oh, I've never run out of food ever. Like, I I don't I can't think of a single time where I've even been out for like a two, three hour hack that I've actually run out of food. Because you don't even need as much as you think you need. But you really don't. It's not every single thing there. Yeah, it's just there. It's like it's like putting on my chaps, you know. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go. I mean, I do sometimes, but like, you know, I put my riding shoes on, put my chaps on, put my riding helmet on, you know, I put my tack on, there's numbness, all the rest of it, and I put the nerd pouch on, you know, like it's just one of the things that I put on as part of it. Like, you know, you go out for a hack, you put hives on. Like, it's just such a nothing, and it's such an easy thing to pick up. It doesn't, it doesn't cost me anything not to have it. So why wouldn't I have it? You know? Um, so and that's just it. And and I actually find it really sweet. So there's like be you know, and because like even just like the other day, um, you know, I went out for our like a hack, and we pretty much talk about self-carriage. I was like, you know, can you just walk? And she just I barely even like touched any no negative reinforcement all the way down like the the the old Dublin Road. Um that's just literally nice little bit through the trees and stuff into the the main farm. We all call it the old Dublin Road. Um, and at one point she just stopped dead, didn't you know, and just looked back at me. And I just was like, and I know because she's trained me for that, and that's usually where she turns to the left because she's looking for a treat. She just turned around and she's like, Can I have a treat? So I gave her a treat and she went, Great, thanks. Didn't touch her with my legs, she just walked again. She just stopped because she wanted one. And I was like, That's fine. Yeah. Like, you know, but like some people would see that as an issue, right? Because it's like with a horse stopped. But like, I was like, She turned to me and went, I'd like one, please. And I went, Well, that's no problem. Of course, you can have one. Gave her one and she went, Great, thank you. Without even putting my legs on again, she just walked on again. That was it. She just she just wanted one. And I'm like, that's no problem. No problem whatsoever. And I find that really sweet. Like, yeah, I do. I wasn't necessarily I like, you know, and people could say, Well, you reinforce the stop and looking for a treat. And I'm like, Well, she's communicating with me that she wants something. And how wouldn't I reward that? And how do you know that she wasn't worried about something? Yeah, exactly. Maybe she saw something, was a little bit worried, and went, Oh, Barbara, is that okay? Normally I get a treat if I'm a bit spooky and I'm a bit worried about something. Because it's effectively like look at that training, like you know, they look at that, they check back in with you, you give them a food reward, and you change the association with something that's spooky um or scary. And it does work really well. Um, with horses, they're actually very good at doing it. Um, but half the work people want is for the horse to not spook, to not run away, to check in the amount of people, you know, in anyone who's been a client of mine, you know that one of the first things I ask you on a first phone call is what's the goal? You know, if they these behaviors weren't a concern, what what's the goal that you want? What are you wanting to achieve? And you know, nine out of ten times is I want to feel connected, I want my horse to look to me for comfort, I want to know that when we're in a scary situation, that my horse chooses me. Different variations of those statements happen weekly, and then there's this kind of just mindset of well, the horse asking for food isn't allowed. But Mike, if they're it it's can we they're asking? They're they're asking you, they're checking in, they're asking you a question, they're going, hi, can I have one, please? Instead of just dragging to the grass or going, Sort this, I'm off. Exactly. Yeah, I'm gone, I'm out of here, you know. And and this is it, and it's like you said, it's like change the the scenario as well. It's like, you know, I want Jen to be my friend, pretty please, it's been years, you still won't. Um, and she's over at my house. I'm like, you know, goes, can I have a cup of tea and a biscuit? I'm like, no. Like, she shouldn't be allowed to ask, but I still want to form a relationship with her. I know I'm being a little bit facetious. Oh god, we're right on the edge of having a cup of tea conversation, but you will have one now, Jen. You will have one now, it's considered but like, yeah, I'll say to go back, it's like when do I know if it's time to stop giving food? You know, it's entirely up to you, you know. Yes, it's entirely up to you. Well, just understanding the consequences. Sorry, Goye, yeah, for sure. Yes, no, the word consequences is one thing I forgot to say right at the start was just be careful that if you have been using positive reinforcement to reinforce the behavior, we'll have a look back at the quadrants. I know they all interlock and there's nuances, but if we remove the positive reinforcement for desired behavior and the behavior is performed, and the desired outcome, the consequence of food, is not there, that is now negative punishment. So you may end up removing the behavior that you wanted in the first place because punishment stops the performance of the behavior. Exactly. So, negative reinforcement, by the way, you know, the same happens, and we see that all the time. Like, um, you know, meeting. And you can get frustration behaviors. Yeah, that come out of that. But it like that's not I just I just want to make sure people aren't like, oh, but that's why you should never start training with food in the first place. It can happen with negative reinforcement as well. I went on a tirade during our uh unpopular opinion one, like about this effectively, you know, as well. Because when we put the pressure on, negative reinforcement, and we do not release the pressure, we have tipped into positive punishment, and we can end up like removing a behavioural repertoire that we want to. So it's not there are consequences on both ones. This isn't like, well, I should have never stopped using food in the first place, and then I never would have had to try and like wean myself off like as heroine. Um, and to then be in a situation where I have to worry about this, the same consequences can happen with negative reinforcement. Timing and reinforcement is important for both of them. Absolutely. And every single person who has a horse is actually doing positive reinforcement, whether they like to admit it or not. Yeah, 100%. And the listeners are going, What? If you give your horse a bucket feed, you open that door and you give your horse a bucket feed, or you give them any food at any point, or even scratches, praise, grooming anyway, you yeah, even just you are giving your you are interacting with your horse a positive reinforcement. So you can either learn the skill, up skill yourself, and then use it to your advantage, or not. It's up to you. But chances are you're already doing it, so why not harness that and make your relationship with your horse, your skills and your knowledge as a horse owner even better. For me, it's a no-brainer, it just makes perfect sense. And plus, I am a rogue positive positive reinforcement trainer because rogue. I am because I don't have a bag. I actually don't. I've never you've I'm a pocket person. I really am. Jen has Jen has literally, like, even being out there, you have literally, as you filled your own pockets, you know, have just like at one point picked up a pile and shoved into one of my pockets while I'm standing beside you. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, no. I've got I I have got so many pouches, different types, you know, they're all used for different ones. I've got so like I have when I do um like the endurance stuff, I have like it's actually a hiking bag, it's really comfy. I love it. Um, it goes around my like my back, it's got like a back support, but I got it because it has two pouches that come round my size, basically where my kidneys would sit, and they're really big, and they're zip pockets, and I can put treats on either side so they're nice and easy, and then it's got like place to put my water, and then I can put all my other gear and stuff in the back. So when you're out of the way, that makes sense. I I feel like I was doing endurance, I feel like that makes sense, and I and I recommend it to clients all the time. Just I yeah, I'm just such a pop. I I buy my clothing for horses looking at like the depth and the shape of the pocket, especially if it has like a nylon line pocket instead of like fabric, that's a game changer. Don't lie, you buy jackets like you know, yes, yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? I don't think pocket depth has anything to do with this. Oh no, it definitely does. Oh, it does. Oh, it does. I I will I will I will contest that it absolutely does. The thing is, I want another one as well because um you know how like my orange these days. Um, you know, in the last couple of years I've drifted more towards orange as being like a colour that I really like. Oh, it's been the last couple of years, yeah. What's what I mean? Like it easily the last like five years, like I have drifted into orange. I don't feel like five years it's a drift. I think after five years, you're well and truly in uh in the orange group. Um that's why I got two ginger cats. Um just to add to the madness, yeah. But I have a grey one, or like it's like that I got for David because he kept giving out that Izzy wasn't listening to him years ago, so I bought him it. Um was like, you know what you're supposed to be doing, you can put that on, take the treats with you when you take it for a walk, you know. Um, and then I wouldn't mind after a week or two, he stops complaining that she wasn't listening and you know, then proudly showed off his training prowess. Um I was like, very good, you did what I told you to do. Um but uh then I have my purpley lilac one and then my teal one because obviously they're my branded colours, so I but I wouldn't mind I had them well before I did my branded colours, you know. Um obviously just gravitated towards them, so I like to put them on two at the same time if I really want to, and then I've got two hacking slash endurance ones, um, and yet now I want an orange one. I think I need an orange, a luminous pink one, and an aluminous orange one, and I'll put the two on together, you know. So I can hear your silence because you're like, and you give out how many jackets I have and how many rugs I have and listen to how many pouches you have. Yeah, I know, I'll take it. Go for it. I don't even have to eat it yourself, and this is why we work so well. You literally can read my mind through silence. I don't I don't even have to say it and you're berating yourself. It's the perfect friendship, yeah. Cause because the thing is, the the video's not on, but I can hear your face through the silence. Like I just I just know exactly what's happening. Um oh, cat got a beat. Oh, keeps getting stung by bees. I'm watching the cats outside, by the way, just be complete menaces. Um, have we answered this question by the way? Oh we oh we we we still have, and we've just tangented, but I I feel like for once at least we kept the good stuff at the start and the tangent at the end. So at least we didn't mix them up. You're still listening. We prioritised the question. Still, Susie, way back in the day, apologized but we never answered, and we still haven't, and we still we probably won't ever answer your question. Just to keep on brand. Um I did I did mention um you know contraphyloading, um, which is that you know it's kind of tangentially linked, but we can always come back to that another day. I think uh yeah, there's too many too many syllables and letters for today. Yeah, we got inter and intrinsic and extrinsic just about yeah, yeah, I think we got that one. Yeah, it's time to go cool down. Um and yeah, and thank you again for your question. And as I just as a reminder to people, um as I in the description, there's the WhatsApp number. Um, you can send me a voice note, or if you want to keep it anonymous, like absolutely, you can either just text it on and write your question down. Um and and we'll just read it out and discuss on the podcast. It is entirely up to you, but we love getting the questions and you know, thanks everyone for being such great supports about it. Absolutely. Thanks so much, guys, and looking forward to the next one. See you next one. Bye bye.