"How do we help horses feel calmer without relying on calming supplements?"

One of our listeners from Canada got in touch with a question that seems to be everywhere at the moment "How can we help horses feel calmer without relying on calming supplements?"

With calming supplements all over social media, it can feel like there's a powder, paste, cookie, or magic solution for every anxious horse. But how much evidence is actually behind these products?

In this episode, Jen and Barbara dive into the world of calming supplements, marketing claims, FEI regulations, ingredient lists, and why "contains" doesn't necessarily mean "works."

We talk about:

•  the difference between supplements and medications 
•  why the language used in marketing is often very carefully chosen 
•  dose, delivery, and why ingredient lists don't tell the whole story 
•  tryptophan, serotonin, and some of the science behind common calming ingredients 
•  why products can be sold without strong evidence of effectiveness 
•  and how Barbara's background in pharma and clinical research has made her deeply suspicious of the supplement industry 

But more importantly, we talk about the horse.

Because if you're looking for a calming supplement, you're probably already asking a really important question: "How can I help my horse feel better?"

Behavioural challenges are rarely caused by one thing, and they're rarely solved by one thing either. We explore what we can do to genuinely support our horses, set them up for success, and look beyond the idea that calm can simply be scooped into a feed bucket.

—

Got a question you'd like us to tackle?

Send us a voice note.

Your horse. Your question. Your training dilemma.

And we'll work through it in a future episode.

Real cases. Real answers. Real madness.

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Hey guys, welcome back for another episode of Dangerous to Both and Tricky in the Middle. Today we have another listener question, which is awesome. And I believe the topic we're going to be going into today is calming supplements. Is that right? It is indeed.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

I think there's more layers to it. But yes, calming supplements, if you're not familiar with them, they are supplements that claim to calm your horse from a whole host of behavioural issues. Yeah. From everything, pretty much. And they can stop everything. They are the magical snake oil of uh the 21st century, pretty much. And with that introduction, I think you can quite. I was gonna say, yes, like where does Barbara land on this? Um I wonder. What do you know about clamine supplements before we play the question, Jen?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Um what what do I know about them? Well, we don't actually know much because there's barely any research to support them. We know a lot of evidence that doesn't support them. There's a lot of misinformation, there's a lot of ingredients that are being marketed in the horsey world based on small bits of evidence, but actually in the human medicine world they're that ingredient's being used for something completely different. Um what else do we know? Well, we also know that if they truly did what they said on the tin, then pharmaceutical companies who are eating yeah, they'd be medical. And then they'd be medical, that's medical anxiety medication wouldn't be getting used. Um and it would be a controlled substance if it actually worked. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Like there are things that are supplements that you can buy over-the-counter, so you've got your prescription medication, which has to be prescribed by a vet or a doctor, then you've got your over-the-counter, which is where your supplements come in, um, anything that you can kind of feed. There are certain over-the-counter supplements that have been like say banned by the FEI because it does have an effect of some description, right? You know, so we can't sedate a horse going into a competition. There are anti-doping, you know, for all the correct reasons. Um, so why can we use calming supplements? So that's that's I would just, you know, for people like who are tuning in and questioning that, I would also say, and just to pick up and like you know, before the question, so I used to work in pharmaceuticals for a long time, and one of the uh veterinary pharmaceutical companies that I worked for also did supplements like vitamin supplements um as well. And I have sat in many a meeting where I was appalled by what you could actually claim and do from a regulatory perspective and put on a box. So at the time when I was working there, just stipulated that because maybe the it has changed, um, sitting in you know, rooms talking about certain supplements and me questioning the wordage that was used for in this case it was copper. I was like, you know, these claims here for copper for this particular one that it does X, Y, and Z to like muscles or whatever for this particular animal. I'm being very careful here, obviously, you know, because I don't want to narrow them down. I was like, these claims are not accurate. And the regulatory department went, oh no, but we can say that because there was a paper that was published in 1972 that showed it in this particular species or in this study. And I'm like, but it's been since debunked, and they're like, it doesn't matter, because as long as we have two papers somewhere at some point that have been published that that make that statement somewhere, then we can put it on our packaging and we can say it in a certain way, like so they they're very careful about the wordage, so like picking on copper, they were like, copper supports muscle growth and like whatever, yeah, yeah, it does, but it doesn't necessarily mean that this particular supplement is gonna do that for your horse, you know. So the claims that are made are like you, I mean the thing is we know macronutrients, vitamins, and minerals are all important for both us, our dogs, our cats, our horses, everyone, right? You know, we need all of those things, you know. Um, but it's like if you pick up something that's say I'm gonna pick calcium because it's probably an easier one, like them bones, them bones need calcium, you know, back when we were kids and stuff, like we know that bones require calcium. There are other things in the body as well that do it, like require a certain amount of it. Um, but if you pick up something that says like good for bone development, you know, and all the rest of it, read the back of the supplement thing and and be very critical about the way they word it because they won't say, you know, we'll you know, as like we'll repair bone damage or this, that, and the other, or whatever happens to be in the horse. Like it would be like calcium is a critical ingredient in bone development, that it would be very vague, and you read it and go, Oh, great, brilliant, that's what I'm looking for. And it doesn't actually mean that there's anything there, and the RD that they all do, they all like they're all just generic. This is what I hit find hilarious as well, is again this particular company. Um, sorry, I don't know if there's any interest. You interrupt me, Jen, if I'm just waffling on before we get to the question. Um, I just think it's an important stipulation of why I'm so skeptical about it because I've seen it firsthand. Like the RD department. So most pharmaceutical companies and other auxiliary like supplement companies and stuff will have an RD department, and you think, Oh great, that's research and development. You would be surprised how much of that research and development is just buying competitors' products and then putting it through HPLC, which is a way of trying to figure out what's actually in it, and then just doing a backwards compatibility to just create the same product again, like it's it's madness, and I'm like, what is happening here? You know, so they just take generic items like that are already you know on the market and then making it their own thing, and then it's like marketing and stuff as well. Um it's funny you say that.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

I I can remember I went went traveling years ago and made friends with a girl who worked in like beauty um cosmetics, but I guess I guess it's still pharmaceuticals at uh to a degree because it was like medical and stuff. And she was saying the same thing that a lot of what they would do again, no brand is mentioned, is they would have a formula that was selling, call it like a face wash or a cleanser or something, and then just take out one one ingredient and tweak the others around it so it still works and it was still beneficial, and then just rebrand as a whole new product and then let that peak to a certain degree, swap an ingredient out, tweak things around, and like that was it, and actually, like they hadn't really created a new product in like 20 years. Yep, it was just tweaking ingredients up and down levels, but it was essentially the same product, maybe of a slightly different smell or texture or something like that, but actually, and each time a higher price point, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Yeah, but anyway, anyway, that is way it's still real, it's still relevant, but let's I think it's pretty I think it's pretty relevant, you know. It sets it sets the tone, if nothing else, and I think people would be kind of shocked about that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like as well, and just particularly as I say, like what you can actually put on the box. Like, I remember being in the local Equine place, you know, like just you know, shop with a friend of mine many, many years ago, um, and she was looking for something like a hoof supplement or whatever, and she was like picking up and going, What about this one? And I was turning over the back, and I was like, Okay, so it's basically got this, this, this, this in it. You only need this, and you only need this, you know, everything else is just a filler, and I was like, also, let's be critical here, read what they've actually said, and I was like, you know, what we're actually like read it, and like, and by the end, she was like, Oh my god, all of this, yeah, all of this is and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, you know, one of my biggest gripes is when they'll give you an ingredient list, but then you have no idea how much, so it might be like rosemary, neto, alpha alpha, and you're like, Okay, how much?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

It could be what two percent rosemary, it could be 15% rosemary, like you don't know, you haven't told me how much. This could be 99% alpha like meal, and then like 0.5% of anything else. You haven't told me how much of that.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Yeah, and what's what's the excipient and what's the active ingredient? Yeah, you know, which which are two really critical things. So, like, not everything in like um a pill that we take or an injection is the actual like medicine, there's other things that keep it stable that uh support, you know, the rest of the function of the medication. And it's the same for like different types of supplements, you need things to keep it stable, to make it palatable, like you know, other ingredients and like how much is in each one, it varies so much. Like, and you don't, you know, so if you you need to actually provide like a supplement or a balancer or something else to your horse, you know, you are left with all of these different products that are very difficult to navigate, all make all of these claims, and you don't know if it's the most ideal, yeah, you know. And I always think like it, you know, they'll have it very vague of being like one scoop for a 500 kilo horse, like and half a scoop for a pony, and like I'm like, what's the difference between the breed? What else are they getting in their diet? Do you know what I mean? Like, you could go on about it forever. But we have a very specific question about supplements, and they are calming supplements. So, will we crack on and play this message, Jen? Yes, let's let's let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Let's listen to the message.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Hi, I'm calling in from Canada. I love your guys' podcast so much. So I'm very excited to be submitting a question because I cannot wait to hear your thoughts. So I'm really curious. There's a lot of especially in my area, calming supplements are so big for show horses, really for like any horses. Like basically, if you go on social media, you will get a calming supplement ad, and I hate it. So I would really love to know like for these show horses or these horses who are going off property, or maybe just horses who are a little bit prone to be more anxious. How can we support them and help them feel calmer without having to rely on things like this that who knows are safe, who knows have detriments long term, and just so we can address like the root issue and help the horse feel better by addressing that. Thank you so much. I'm so so excited to hear what you say. And thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Awesome. I think it's a great, it's a great question, and I feel like it's a question that we hear a lot of the time from a lot of horse owners. Um, and it's a question that I feel like I've been asked every year of doing my job, like several times a year, which is a shame because it means that the information isn't getting out there and that the marketing companies are doing a great job in keeping everyone hooked, um, instead of being real, and um it's frustrating, and I'm sure you guys have have uh gathered from the start of this podcast where we pretty much sit on the matter. So we're specifically talking about kami supplements, and I think some of the biggest ingredients we come across is like magnesium, L tryptophan, CBD, valerian root. There's one I can't, I've got it in front of me, and just I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation. I'm laughing at Valerian root. I'm just like, alright, Game of Thrones. Um that's right, isn't it? Valerian root.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

Yeah, I know. I just my brain just went straight to Game of Thrones. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Um then the Ashwaganda. Ashwaganda.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Sure, why not?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

And then we can I'm sure there's more. I'm sure there's more.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Um, there's there's turmeric and everything as well. Why just a which is also used by the way in the realm of pony patterns and stuff as well. Like, you know, whenever we do actually have a horse with serious medical issues, and you know, you see on social media like people make fun of them being like, Oh yeah, just give them turmeric, ha ha ha ha ha. It's it's become like a derogative as well, on top of everything else. So yeah, yeah, it's my it's my fun.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Like I do think with turmeric as it has been, it has been kind of given it was called golden paste, isn't it? And it's like turmeric absolutely has benefits, and do you know what? It makes a great curry, but one don't you have to feed like 50 kilos or something to a horse in order to like this? Is it nobody's paying attention to the dosage rate? It's like okay, you want to feed it a tablespoon, it won't do anything. That's that's you flavouring the feed and staining all your buckets and your hands and whatever else it's coming in contact with. You actually need to feed something ridiculous, like, oh, there's somebody I can't remember, but like a ridiculous amount that actually turmeric can have big irritation to the gastrointestinal tract. So before it's beneficial, turmeric in particular can be really irritating on the gut. It's it's not a cure all, and this is one of my biggest gripes. Um, and that's well evidenced in human medicine as well. And turmeric, I know, especially when it comes to things like cancer treatments, can be really aggressive and doesn't agree with certain medical things. So, this is this is one of my topics to talk about within the calming supplements, is a lot of these ingredients fed at high levels or incorrect levels can have negative effects when they we act with other things in the horse's dye. And if we're talking about horses that have anxiety or behavioural issues, chances are they might also be on some sort of medical veterinary care. And not all ingredients like working together.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Yep. And just to go back to a point that you made there as well, like I get that question all the time. I I get it for dogs too, like CBD oil or like other supplements, or people will show me stuff that you know was recommended. They had a previous trainer out and they recommended this supplement and they sold it to them. I've even seen vets as well. I've gone out to clients and they've gone, Oh, we've had this issue with the horse, so the the vet sold me this supplement and it gets written into notes and stuff, you know, and I have my own kind of problems with that. And usually when I look at it and I look at the ingredients, I'm like, Well, this dog actually has like you know, hip dysplasia or dermatological issue, and that's what's actually needed right now. But people buy it and want to do it because ultimately they want to help their animal, yeah. Like this this is the thing, and then this is I suppose like and I can I can hear the frustration in you know the voice note that we got as well from Izzy, like is you know, and and it is the fact that it's like you see all of these, and she highlights it there and says, like they can have long-term detrimental effects, but people are doing it well-meaningly because they, you know, they want to help their horse or their animal, and it's coming from a place of like vulnerability, because sometimes these behaviors are really like scary as well. Um, and they're looking at the advertising, going, Oh, maybe this will help. So it's coming from a really well-meaning place, they have like you know, what we call like a pain point, something that is you know, a challenge or a difficulty, like that they want resolved, and here comes you know, a magical supplement that's gonna fix all of that, yeah. You know, and we want it to work and we want it to do it because we've invested and paid that money in, and we hope that it is. I've literally had um like clients that you know our vets and gone out to assess the horse, and um, you know, I've seen things that I'm like, you know, we've had this injury, and you know, we do a pain trial, or can we do something like that? And you know, I had one that goes, Oh, I I did six weeks of CBD oil, and I was like, you know, so we don't need to do the pain trial, like, and I was like, Well no, no, they're two totally different things, you know. So like it's not just like like and the reason I mention that is like it's not just like it's not just like everybody can fall into the trap because the marketing is very good. Yeah, it doesn't matter how educated you are, it doesn't matter if you're you know a vet or a behaviorist or a nutri clinical nutritionist or anything like that. If the marketing is good, you know, and it is very good.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Oh well, this is this is just as the other day when I voice noted you from pets at home. Yeah. When I was getting dog cut. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like I I needed to get a sanity check from Barbara the other day because like Fia's she's oh she'll she's getting weighed tomorrow, but her last weigh-in, we were 24. something kilograms, she's almost 25, and a lot of the puppy food out there goes up to 25 and that's it. And then I'm having this moment because the marketing is so good, right? I voice note barber because I'm just like, am I going mad here? Like, how do I do this? Like, how what where do I do I go into an adult one, even though she's only seven months old? Do I feed more? Because they want to hook you into something and keep you somewhere, and it makes you doubt yourself, so you think, oh well, I don't know what to do, so I'll stick with this and I'll do that. When actually it's just about calories and it's nutrition, it's about having a balanced diet, and that's the key thing, and meeting the calories per age group and expected growth, which is information which should be more easily accessible.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

But like, and I know all these things, and even I as soon as oh, as soon as I said it to you, I was like, just supplement your diet with something else. And the thing is, the word supplements has been bastardized, yeah, because when we say supplement a diet, like we do that, yeah, it could actually be nutritional stuff. So, like we we often supplement horses' diets during the winter with hard feed, yeah, you know, oils, concentrates, other things like that, like that's still supplementing the diet. And when I said it to you, I was like, you know, I was like, add some extra bits and pieces in, some more enrichment, you know, like add some other bits and pieces in, just like increase the amount of food or spread it out over other meals, and you were like, Oh my god, yes. Because I remember this conversation, you were like, they had me completely like I was like, if this is a horse, this is you saying to me being like, if this is a horse, yeah, in seconds.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

It was literally my voice now. I was like, Yeah, I was like, Thank you for the sanity check. If this was a horse, I wouldn't have thought twice about this. But because I'm still in a shop with bright colours everywhere, a thousand and one different brands, and you're reading it, and you start to go, oh my god, you start doubting yourself. So, like this podcast episode is not about blaming the owners. We we are the consumers, it's not about blame at all, but like my gripe is with the marketing and the hooks and the money making. That's the side of things which is the annoying part because there is good information out there, I want better information out there, but so much of it is you know, smoke and mirrors and behind a veil, and here's a little bit, but not quite. So, like magnesium is one that really gripes me a bit because there is evidence out there for uh muscles, sorry, for magnesium, primarily in humans, but it's for sleep and for muscles, not anxiety. And there is actually research in humans, specifically for anxiety, and it's not there. The evidence does not support it, but for some reason it's one of the key ingredients in calming supplements for horses. They're leading with magnesium, and it's like there is no evidence. There is there's there's evidence for muscle recovery, um, and it's like involuntary twitching, which is where it helps with sleep. So if you do struggle with staying asleep, then magnesium, and there's different types of magnesium as well. You it's not just magnesium, it's magnesium, sulfur, or oh, there's all sorts of types, I'm not a chemist. I'm not a chemist.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

No, 100%, 100%, and like you know, as I say, it's more just it goes back to like you know, you've got your excipient and your active ingredient and how it is utilized in the body.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

So for example, you'll see a lot of medication. Like, say if you've got a cold and flu, there'll be like a nighttime and a daytime one. The reason that's the case is because caffeine is all is often added to a lot of those painkillers for cold and flu, not because it keeps you alert necessarily, but because it actually helps with that medication being processed in the body. So, like it's not it's not necessarily part of the medication, but like caffeine is a drug, like you know, from that side of things. So there are other things in these supplements and and you know, and other medications that make the active ingredient, which is what is claiming to support the the animal, outside of that. So there are other things and and they're kind of critical as well. Um can I can I just add that please don't feed your horses caffeine? No, please don't feed your horses caffeine.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Caffeine for horses and dogs and pretty sure dogs as well, it's not safe. Yeah, so just yeah, asterisk caveat, do not recommend it.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Um stop, right? Can I just on that note? Sorry, I like right, this is many, many years ago, right? Dog is really, really reactive, really struggling, lots of other kind of issues and stuff there as well, lots of distance increasing behaviors. We'd had bites and stuff, and uh it came out a couple of weeks later after we were doing stuff. Um gave them his morning coffee, gave them, gave the dog their morning coffee. Stop. Yeah. I was like, I literally was sitting there with David and like had to say it to him, like, put the phone down and I went, here's a hint. Stop giving your reactive dog caffeine. You know? Did they stop?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

No, they didn't.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

Like I

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I've known people to let their dog have like a few licks out of you know a cold cup of tea or something, not ideal, don't recommend it, but to actually give their dog their own cup of coffee. Oh my god. Morning cup of coffee. I'm pretty sure caffeine is actually toxic to horses and dogs. There's definitely something about caffeine and horses that get a not good for us either.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

She says or cup of coffee. Yeah. I have a coffee. Um but yeah, just on your point with the marketing, sorry, like with the you know, you're talking about magnesium, like the other thing, and I know we're kind of talking all around bits and pieces, but I think it needs to be discussed before we get on to the the county supplement side of things. The like garlic is is not safe for horses to eat, and yet like if you look at it, like toxic plants and toxic like vegetables and stuff for horses, garlic's on there. Yeah. And it's fed as a supplement. So not only not only can you like you know, are a lot of these like not necessarily like you know, clinically tested or have imp uh empirical results within the research for various different types of supplements. You can also sell something that has been proven to be toxic to horses and claim that it has all of these benefits.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, it's anemia, isn't it? Like to anemia.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

It's anemia, yeah. Yeah, you know, but it's also like you know, you can gut fermenting, non-ruminant like animal. Let's give it something that ferments, you know, causes other issues.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, so anyway, also not to make anyone feel bad because way back in the day, I was one of those people who fed numerous amounts of garlic because to keep the flies away, because that's what we were told, yeah. That wasn't that was the thing. Feed garlic in the summer because it makes the skin smell bad or something to help reduce the flies.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

We all did, but it just shows, but it just shows you, right? So, like the you know, it shows you what a dose delivery actually is because ultimately it's under the threshold though from what is toxic, so you can feed something at a very low level, even though it's like oh, one or two scoops of garlic granules, but it's so little to have the effect to actually have like do you know what I mean? Like toxic effects for the horse. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah, probably would have had so it just shows like 500 grams a day or something for it to be toxic. It exactly, but it probably wasn't it probably wasn't even doing the benefit of the flies and still adding something questionable to the horse's diet.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Exactly, but they're still claiming that this is what it does, yeah. So the dose that they're even giving, yeah, anyway. So that's that. And we get on to calming supplements, as you say, you've talked about magnesium, the the various kind of like ingredients that are in there. My favourite marketing one, and I say favorite, you know, I'm quoting here, I'm doing quotations here, is calming cookies, yes, um, because there's something kind of cutesy about the whole cookie thing, um, and it you know, it makes you know that again the marketing the branding is very good, like you know, it's a calming cookie, very popular here, very, very popular here. I don't know what it's like in the UK, oh yeah, um, and you've lots of different types and stuff as well. Um, and I have a story about that. I have told you this story, Jen. So if you don't mind me repeating it again, I will happily repeat it for the story. So many, many years ago, I had a friend that we used to hack out together, and um, you know, her her mare was very spooky, and she used to give her calming cookies before we went out. And this one day, you know, I was like, You ready to hack out? You ready to go? And she was just like, Oh, can we wait another like half an hour? Because I just given her her calming cookie and it takes 40 minutes to take effect. And I just stared at her. And because we were friends for a long time, she's like, Don't tell me, it doesn't work, I don't want to hear it. It makes me feel good, like she just, you know, she knew me. And I was like, I'm not saying anything, I won't say anything, you know. She was like, But you saying that is enough to tell me, like, you know, and I she was just like, I'm happy with the placebo, and I'm like, all right, okay, you know, and I was like, All right, just for chits and giggles. I was like, Can I have one? And she was like, Oh, you're gonna give one to Clara, and I was Clara was at the time, and I was just like, No, no, no, I was like, I'm gonna eat it, and she was and she hesitated, giving it to me. She quite, Oh, Barbara, you can't eat it, and I was like, No, honestly, give it to me. I'm going to eat it. Like, I am gonna eat it, right? Because if that's a dose for a 500 kilo horse, I want to eat it, see what happens to me. I was like, and she was just like, Oh, I don't think this is safe. Do you know what I mean? Like, she was so hesitant, so like I got it. I said, Look, I promise, the worst thing that's gonna happen to me is I might have diarrhea tomorrow. Like that, I that is the worst that's gonna happen because I've eaten something I probably shouldn't have, you know. So I ate the thing, we went out on our hack. The entire hack, she kept glancing over and looking at me, being like, How are you feeling? What does it feel like? I was like, Nothing, feel absolutely nothing, you know, the entire way. But she I swear she thought I was just gonna fall off out of the side of the saddle, and we got back in, and uh, you know, she was like, right, I won't buy anymore. I was like, and I was like, I'm really sorry, and she's like, I can't believe you did it anyway. And I was like, but I didn't say anything, I just ate one, you know. And I was like, I'm saving you money in the long term, I promise. Um, so yeah, so Barbara ate a calming cookie, uh, great experimental design, um, you know, unit of one. Um, I was fine, and I also didn't have diarrhea the next day, so there you go. It was a little nutritional stack for me, it didn't even disturb my gastrointestinal health. So, you know, at the time I was 80 kilos and I ate a dose for a 500-600 kilogram horse. Um, and before we get there, like, oh, but it's different biology and stuff, you know, like there's a lot of things that we can give horses and humans that work the same way, well, like medication-wise. I've actually not yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

There is there are crossovers. Well, I pulled up, I've pulled up their um premier cam cookies ingredient list, right? And this is the they're not gonna want to sponsor this. Well, we're talking about calming cookies. So I was like, oh, let's talk about it. And we're talking about more because of the ingredients.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

So I'm gonna go through the ingredients by premier equine.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Right, okay. So the lead the lead with the chai seeds as high in omega-3s and fatty acids, and this is me reading it out. These ingredients support skin, coat, hooves, digestive health, and muscle condition. Yeah, support, support. Remember, I said at the start, support. Yeah, but okay. Like that's one of those words. That's just general health. And then we have the L arganine plays a role in learning memory blood flow regulation. So that's plays a role. That's another one. Plays a role. That's fine. It plays a role. But again, that's got nothing to do with anxiety. It's also involved in immune function. Well, that's that's nice. That's nice to know. Um, vitamin C and E, antioxidants that support the nervous system and play a role in supporting the horse during periods of excitement or exertion. This is the one where I get a little bit mmm, because they're antioxidants. Vitamin C is also used in the immune system. Um, vitamin C and E also play a role in the respiratory system. Um, you also get loads of it in grass, fresh grass.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

So it's a very basic component in a horse's diet. We should be all providing a balanced nutritional diet with all the macros, micronutrients, vitamins, and minerals. Again, not any evidence that vitamin E or C has a particular role in anxiety or behavioural dysfunction. Then we get on to B vitamins, again, basic requirement of help, zinc. Then we've got peppermint, venigreek, and sodium chloride, also known as salt.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

And and they didn't say anything about the the tropans, which is a type of protein which again has been linked to you know things for anti-anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

So they do know what to agree, they specifically we do not contain valerian, magnesium, or tropan because, and I think we're gonna go on. So, what what's interesting about the tropans, Barbara?

SPEAKER_04 31:06

Just feed them a couple of carrots. Do you know what's great? Do you know what's fantastic about carrots? They got tropans in, and we know that they do have like they do support anti-anxiety, uh, like or you know, they can reduce stress and stuff. Like, I think we can make it worse as well. Can it? Can it go the other direction?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah, L tropen, L tropen is one of these really tricky ones, it can go both ways.

SPEAKER_04 31:32

Okay, so limit so there's a balance of carrots, like, but like, but again, it's just you know, yeah, I just I find it fascinating, but like to go back to what I said at the start, and again, my time working, you know, farming, like within these in these supplements, support, you know, plays a role, involved plays a role. They are your warning words right there. Because I want you to pick up a pack of paracetama and see where it says support involved or play a role, yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Like that it does not say that, and this is it, like this is where we get into it. It's like it, it's it's very it's it's what it's what they can say, unless it actually does something, they have to use this language, yeah, you know, which is a big red flag, like across the board. So we're here to save you a lot of money, yeah, you know, when it comes to this side of things, it's like you know, it if you are, and I would say as well, like you know, we'll get into the the behavior side of things and focus on it, because ultimately, like while we have you know a good understanding of nutrition and had to do it, you know, as say during our masters, and it is a critical port part of behaviour for dogs and horses, which we both work with because it is part of it, because foraging, eating behavior and other things all come into that, right? It is still part of behavior. We are not nutritionists, like, and if you were concerned that there is a nutritional deficit in your horse, like you know, please do seek the guidance from you know independent, independent, you know, nutritionists, and I we say independent as well because again, other people that are affiliated to other organizations and feed companies and stuff, you want to get that independence, and there are some great ones out there, yeah. There are no there really are, and and across the world, the great thing about nutritionists is you know, it doesn't have to be someone that's local to you, like there are people across the world, you know, um, that can support um from that side of things. So just that caveat out of the way. Um I have one more gripe. That's cool. I have I have got I've got one more as well. So if we both go, you go first and then I'll go.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Okay, so I feel I feel a bit bad now, so I've now I've I'll I'll pick on another company instead. Um so there's one if you else are responsible by have you heard of the one called No More Nerves?

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Is the is the actual uh fuck yeah, no, I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Right, okay. So their thing is that everything is natural, and again, I'm on their website and I'm looking at the arsenic is also natural, um and there's no so like the compositions there, you know, lemon bam, flarian, raspberry, marshmallow, root, peppermint, but there's no amounts, right? There's no percentages of whatever's there's no actually no amounts there, so I don't actually know what's in it. That's part one. Part two is natural does not mean safe, and natural doesn't mean better, because you could have, let's say, what what what uh chamomile, right? You could have two different chamomile plants, and one of them is four times stronger than the other. You don't know, and then you then you then you you um process that you whatever else you mix it in, you actually don't know you there's no way of standardizing the strength of each product a batch as they come out. So again, you need it. There's a genuine concern that you don't know what you're feeding, and especially if your horse is on a very particular diet or medical, you know, um support. So the L tryptophan's by can fed at the wrong level actually uh have it uh serotonin syndrome, what am I trying to say? It can interfere with um serotonin uptake. So if you're on some sort of serotonin inhibitor medication, and then that you're feeding L-tryptophan at a higher level, they don't they don't react well together. It can actually reduce the efficiency of something else. And it's just like it's such a big world, this is why you have to have a nutritionist.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

So yeah, and and the thing is, I think this is what people again like having worked in in Farm and Clinical for a long time, when you do a batch um of I'm gonna pick on paracetamol, right? You say you do a batch of paracetamol, like that wasn't what we were making, but just easy for you know, so I don't name any of the products that I did associate with, um, you know, you will do QC testing, so like quality control testing as well as quality assurance. So like you will take samples off the line, so like every you know, like say thousand pills that you make, and that doesn't sound like a lot, but like you will take samples from all of the raw materials before they go into the the into the the processing. You will take a sample, you will take repeated samples while it the the main product is being sampled, you will then take you know pills off the line, you know, at certain points in every say thousand one, and you'll test them, and you'll test absolutely every single one to make sure that it is within the range, which is a very tight range, as Jen says like of the exact amount that should be in there. And if there is any doubt, like that whole batch is going in the bin. Like, you know, it is really, really strict, like, and you know, you test for like toxicology, also bacteriology as well. So, like, you have to make sure there's no bacteria, like you know, you do agar plates and you do swabs of the equipment that's being used and also the medication that's going in to make sure that there isn't any foreign, like it's it's it's hello, squeaky joy. Um we were asleep for no longer, yeah, yeah. Squeaky toy. Um the you know, as well as the equipment as well, like, and it's different for pills, like you know, but like for injectables, like it's aseptic, so there's like zero tolerance, and there's various other bits and pieces like that that go into it for supplements and when you're making stuff like that, the threshold is like non-existent, yeah. You don't read you know, compared to the level of rigor that's is going into it, but you know, even just from an oral medication, it's not even close, like it's it's really shocking, like the difference, like um, and you're still putting the you know into your body or into your horse's body, and it's it doesn't have the same kind of rigour. I think it should have, particularly you know, considering the claims, but the reason it doesn't have that much scrutiny is because there's kind of a asher what harm can it do, and if they have that asher what harm can it do, then I'm like, well, sure, then what good can it do? Yeah, you know, like that kind of falls into it for for me. Um, okay, so then my bugbear. Okay, sorry, and then we will actually answer the behavior question because it wasn't how can we actually support them, you know, outside of it. This is just you know, um, yeah, the one that gets me is your MSM and your glucosamine for arthritis. Yeah, isn't isn't it actually yeah, go ahead. It's not recommended, yeah. Yeah, those that yeah, it's your omegas, your three and six, and you can actually do a really high dose compared to like you know, you can actually give them quite a lot for arthritis, and it's far more successful. But everyone, and the thing is from a canine perspective, we know like most even like like I say, it's it's gone from the it used to be the case that the vets would still be recommending your MSN and glucosamine, and now I go out to arthritic dogs and I talk about omegas three and six, and you know, they talk to their vet and they're like, Oh, yeah, no, our vet goddessy supplements, and you know, these are these other things that we can add into the diet to increase it, and yet for horses, we're still talking about MSM and glucosamine, even though it has actively been like shown that it does not support for arthritis. Can I not?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Whereas like Yeah, yeah, I I I feel like I feel like I read something about this, and then I don't know if it was a statistically significant finding or if it was just like one of the other observations he made that in some cases it appeared to make the situation worse.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

Worse. And potentially that just could be because you have an arthritis flare-up and it could have skewed the data. Do you know what I mean? Like there could be other things, yeah. Like, but we do know that omega-3 and six can be really beneficial and uh decrease the swelling and improve.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

There's a ratio to that, and this is why I need a nutritionist, right? Because there's an you need to have more threes and sixes. If your balance is more threes than yeah, more three than six isn't anti-inflammatory, but if you have too many sixes and not enough threes, it can be a a flammour. Oh god, now I'm getting tired.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

Flammatory inflammatory response.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Inflammatory response.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

Nicholas flammel.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

You only say a word too many times, and you're just like, is that even a word anymore? But anyway, there's there's a ratio through stone. Please seek independent registered nutritional help to get this stuff straight because we know stuff, but this is not actually our bag. But we're gonna move on to the behavioural side because that is our bag.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Yes. So now that you we've saved you a load of money and you're not gonna buy calming cookies and cammy supplements, but you're still sitting there going, like, okay, it's the summer, guys. Um, I really want to get out with my horse and get them to a show. How can we actually set them up for success? So the question I would have is are they able to get to a show? Are can they like are they set up for success to get there and actually perform the way you want to? Is it too much of an ask for them? Do we need to drop the level a little bit lower and practice a little bit more with shorter trips and like less pressure to build them up during the summer to then get to the big show, you know?

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah, and it's funny you say all that because I'm so sure we did an episode on this in like season one.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Did we? Yeah, we didn't know what we talk about.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

We did. We we we definitely have done a whole episode on setting your horse up for success.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

I think we talk about everything from trailer loading to like vaccinations and bets and everything else in that. Yeah, you know, like there's quite a lot in that. Um, but it is there. Sorry, did I just like you're you're like, go look at our back catalogue, help the downloads, and I'm like, ah, don't listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, this is one of these market, you know, this is one of these marketing moments where I'm trying to push the previous stuff to get people engaged, and you're like, no, don't bother. Um Jen hangs her head and shakes her head down.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Yeah, she's like, she'll learn one day. Um day, I won't. No, um what was I gonna say? Yeah, like the big thing I have is like, okay, there's the human expectation of us wanting to go to shows and do various things with our horses, and we're ready to go, but is the horse ready to go? And we talk about while I don't like them as terms, we talk about trust and partnership and doing things together. It is only a true partnership if you're both in a good headspace to do it. So if we are sitting there going, I want to go to this show, I want to go out and do something with my horse, 100%. We want to spend that time together. If you're in a good place to do it and they're not, and we're resorting to going, okay, well, how can I sedate them and make them calmer? Because that's effectively what we're talking about, in order for them to enjoy it. Yeah, I don't feel like that's a good place to start from a partnership, you know. Jen, I really want to go to Disneyland and ride this roller coaster. Jen's like, I'm scared of roller coasters, and I'm like, that's okay. I'm gonna sedate you and then drag you along anyway. Yeah. You know, I know I'm being facetious, but you know what I mean? Like, I want to be in a good place with my horse going somewhere together, you know, and and and then it's more enjoyable for everyone. Yeah. So how do we get there? Where would you start, Jen?

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Well, genuinely, the where would I start is the proper consultation? I know that's a really boring answer, but like to understand the medical history, the background, the learning history, what's been repeated, what behaviours are actually being presented, and where where do where's our thresholds, where are we getting trigger stacked? Is this a behavior that starts at the showground? Is it behavior that starts during trailering? Is it actually attacking up or a bad thing? Is it a routine? We'd be looking at friends, forage, freedom, that acronym, what's their quality of life like? There's competitions and travelling is such a human focused thing. It's not natural for horses at all. We're taking them so far out of their comfort zones. Yeah. It's not it's just never the competition. It's it's never that's the end result, that's where they're over threshold, and that's where we're seeing the behaviour. behaviors but actually if they're not coping with it we need to look at what's happening before and what's their foundation where are they starting from and I feel like any I feel like any kind of like pinpoint bullet point answers wouldn't be doing it justice for the horse.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

No that's perfect like because I can actually um happily tell you about a client of mine a few years ago uh beautiful Ace because I know I have permission to talk about this client because she is always singing him from the rooftops um and it's a perfect case where he had been entered into the RDS which is the Dublin horse show here uh for race horse or riding horse which is due in August now I met them in May this is like four years ago or thereabouts um because he was so she actually got kick one of the affiliated ones she was like the judges actually kicked us out like he was so explosive and there was so much going out yeah that they kicked her out and she was just like I managed to make it to another one and we're in for the RDS and I really want to go got beautiful pictures of him and when we did make the did make it in the the August but um yeah so it was super exha like you know big explosive behaviour real sweet absolute gorgeous um boy um but there were so many things that started way back at the yard yeah so the first thing and this is I know you know Jen was like starts from a consultation it genuinely does because we had separation anxiety and we had trailer loading issues and so you have those two things to trigger stack before we even get there. Yeah so no wonder he was going over threshold in the in the ring um and like for him like we did a load of sessions of like target training um and as say I love this particular owner because like I was using the I have a load of cones but like you know the little I don't know what they're called but you know footballers use them they put them on the like you know the ground and stuff they're just like replacing cones yeah 100% so like you know I have a big pile of them and you know I like I say I sometimes like leave them with the clients and stuff as well until you know they want to get something else to start with um but she was like oh no no I don't need that like you know I'm I actually have a pile of them for the kids and stuff. Awesome the last time when I the second time I came down to see her she had it tucked in her top over her boob like like the Madonna oh my god and I was like I was like in stitches and she was like oh no because as soon as he sees it he's like I want to play I want to play I want to play and she's like you know obviously like she you know she was doing the like wearing a hat you know start and stop when training starts and she was like if if he sees it that's it like he's just like I want to play this is the only way to hide it and I was like it's like the Madonna look I love it I've never and I've never seen it since I've never seen it but it's just I it's just made it made me I've never forgotten about it. So like literally I say target training away from his companions in and out in and out all of that sort of stuff and then you know all the usual bits and pieces that we we built on that me and you do all the time for trailer loading Jen like you know like I say your start your go can we move the legs like doing all the other bits and pieces and then I say target onto the trailer on and off you know all that sort of good stuff you know um I do like blanket forts I call it the blanket forts but you know outside of the trailer you know the squeeze making things you know building all that up so it's all second nature you know so like he was much better about leaving you know the other horses didn't have the same kind of experience with separation anxiety you know onto the trailer and stuff and then when they went out to one of their affiliation shows before the RDS and you know I met back up with them before they went to the RDS um I keep saying that now Joe and you were like you said the same thing I said the same name over and over and over again now I'm like why does it sound funny saying RDS a lot of people just call it Dublin um yeah we we just know it as Dublin Horse Show yeah but like for me I'm just like it will always be RDS but then I just hear people just say Dublin I'm going to Dublin this year and I'm like what yeah it's Dublin you know we're supposed to but we're supposed to distinguish between like just going into Dublin anyway um so they'd had one but she had like she was staying away for the weekend and she was just like there was a few moments that he got a bit stressed in the stable or he called once or twice and she was just like I just pulled out the button and I just did some target training and he came back to me and she was just like you know we just played our little game and was wonderful because like and I could have hugged her when she told me she was like we were supposed to go into our show and I could see him getting a little like you know we're about to get called up could see him getting a little bit prancy so she had her target there and outside of the show ring before they went in for this competition she just played a load of target game with him for 10-15 minutes and then she went in and then she did her showing and then swapped over from the judge and they placed and she was like it was brilliant she's like I'm just playing my little button game with him I loved you know and it was just wonderful but but but again because she'd built all these foundations up she had it on the day like and again such a wonderful person she's like I don't care what I look like with my you know cone like in my jacket and standing there and doing all the other bits and pieces it means that I get to ride the ride that they want and I say and they got to Dublin and I got some sent some beautiful photographs of him looking stunning um you know and yeah like that would be as Jen says it's like it it's it's like it starts the consultation it builds it up all these little bits and pieces you set them up for success so you have tools in your toolbox for the day when you get out there you've got other things that you can do to help manage them and support them but it's all of those little things like that that go towards the final one that doesn't sound as attractive no as just give them this calming supplement no because it involves so much more input from the owner let's be honest it does it is it's harder work but what's harder work what's really missed though and we know we talked about this in the last episode and I was saying like you know when you're working positive reinforcement you're working on a higher level you're gaining so much more what gets missed from because it's just not common knowledge is when you're doing things like cone targeting and as an established routine is you're getting those dopamine hits.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

You're letting that your horse feel successful you're literally doing something that makes your horse feel good about themselves. Camming cookie or a a supplement for camming doesn't do that but also you know endlessly walking a horse at a show ground or using more pressure control health halters or separation or you know a lot of the traditional methods do nothing to actually work with the emotions that are at play. Yeah and I feel like it's something that I'm saying to a lot of clients at the minute whether that's horses or dogs is anything we need to we need to deal with the emotion first.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

Like the behavior and the training will happen but it won't happen if we can't call if we can't change the emotion that's underlying that's what's motivating the behavior that's where we start and if you can actually inject some positive emotion into a stressful situation you are massively on to a winner and I would say as well like I know we talked about medication a good bit in this but you know there are SSRIs which are anti-anxiety and the various medication so it's serotonin something reuptake inhibit whatever um hence the acronym because there's too much in there. But basically like you know anti depressants I say for for dogs with things like like fluoxetine there's things like um oh you don't need the whole list. Anyway um we do have medications available to us but the thing that there's one that's licensed for dogs uh called Reconcile and it can only be given as a prescription to dogs if it accompanies a behavioral modification plan by a veterinary behaviorist or a clinical animal behaviorist that's what the license is the license recognizes that even if this dog like requires something as an anti-anxiety medication they still require a behavioral modification plan because and it's and it should be exactly the same for horses as well if we are going to give an animal an anti-anxiety medication just like when we give people if they genuinely need something to support their mental health like we should also be supporting them with cognitive behavioral therapy you know with a therapist other bits and pieces in order to as you say as like get them into a good emotional state you know we cannot just take this magic pill and hope for the best so even in the magical world right where you're like look guys I hear what you're saying but I love my calming cookies they do something for me just like with the SSRI it should still be accompanied by behavioral training. Yeah it should it should because like you wouldn't you know you break your leg you take a medication you put it in a cast but you also need to do physio and support it and rehab it you know to get back to this and it's exact it's it they're complementary across the board.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

100% and even like medicine for humans you think you touched on it there like if you were to take an anti-anxiety medication as a human it's gonna help with what you're feeling but it doesn't address the factors that are making you feel that way so there's still work to be done in outside of the medication like I say you only get the real lasting benefits when you get the two working together um so that's actually such a great point and I really like that the fact that okay if you want to go down the calming supplements then follow the medical advice and make sure you're getting your behavioural support as well.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

Yeah I'm glad you like that one. You can take that one at some point you can have that one and I absolutely will steal that there's one thing we haven't spoken about to be honest with you that'd make a you're very good on social media that'd make a really good um social media post and you can just write that up for me. Okay I'll tag you on a chance I just oh no you don't I don't I don't want the engagement um just just I say constantly social social media I know but like I guess I'm terrible right all right this is like whenever I guess if I see a comment or something come up I'm like oh okay just I don't want to know what it is so I just I stay away from it.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Right before we make everyone feel bad about messing Barbara um no you can WhatsApp me send me a WhatsApp mate I'll talk to you all day long um we haven't really spoken about placebo effects and I think it's really important just to round this off. No we haven't that placebo effect is so important in this because even first of all define it you need to explain what it is first. Oh don't ask me to do a definition I can't remember the lyrics to songs.

SPEAKER_04 56:25

Okay no you can't yeah famously okay so placebo is the word that is used when we think we're receiving like you know something that we we aren't like so the best example I can give is there was a study that was done where they had uh you know two groups of people both had back pain and they only gave sugar pills to one group of people and then they gave an actual painkiller to the other person. It's called control group. So the control group was the the sugar pills and then the actual painkiller was the other group um the people who had the sugar pills actually said that it alleviated their pain more than the other group because they believed they were getting a medication. So it actually that's what a placebo is and we also found as well compare when you compared the pills to an injection so they got an injection the control group got an injection with saline solution not as say the actual painkiller they also felt like they had a it had a bigger effect than you know the pill so that was you know so when people see an injection they think it's going to be more effective when they see a pill because of that psychological stuff. So a placebo is incredibly powerful and because our our brains are incredible.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

And I say there was more there was a other studies on capsule versus tablet so that yeah so again placebo effect trial so one was real one wasn't but they also compared tablets versus capsules and the placebo capsule still scored the highest so just because it was like you like a capsule yeah capsule compared to tablet but also there was another one on there was three groups and the third group was told this is a sugar pill they still reported positive effects even though they knew that even if you know you're under placebo there's still a high probability that you will feel benefit. Yeah because there's like a desire for like you've already made a conscious decision in your brain that you want a certain outcome and you you you that's what you then see. You start seeing the positives and then not fixating on the negatives as such is that positive mental outlook is a bit like placebo in the fact that even though you know it's placebo you still feel a benefit. So the fact that people are buying these supplements one of two things can also be happening one you believe it's working so you are under placebo or two even though you know it's possibly placebo just because you've done something there's like a dopamine hit in that because you're like you feel like you've taken control so you're still going to see a positive outcome.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

And then actually there's a third thing that might be happening is that your behaviors and demeanours and everything change which is not going to be the sole influence on your horse but it could add it can help in that regard could be other factors as well that you're like you know the I say even if you're riding at home and the behaviours have gotten so bad that you've actually you know removed yourself from riding a little bit and you haven't done as much yeah then you start giving the supplement and you're down a little bit more and you start doing a little bit more with them and you increase the amount that you're riding you end up training around the issue you know and then you're like oh wow the supplement really worked and actually you probably be spending more time you know doing bits and pieces and actually actively working on the issue you know there could be that there's so many factors that make it feel like it's actually having an effect.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Yes do you know you've reminded me that's so true because let's take winter for example now sometimes there might be two or three bad weeks and then we might get a respite week or a respite couple of days chances are you've battled through a week or two of bad time just like you know dark weather's coming in it's horrible lacking turnout whatever you make the decision to get the calming supplement the box says three to five days or seven days and at the end of that you see a positive outcome but the weather's also improved there was a fresh hay delivery and the horse could go back out in the field for a little bit it's like correlation versus causation those ice cream seals and shark attacks.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:48

But the other thing as well happens with feed you know this is non-heating feed and I'm like they all have a cecum it's it's heating up yeah exactly yeah and then I'm just like but the thing is that then they talk about that but then they're like not you know what I mean and then I'm just like and the thing is what they mean like oh they've gotten very hot you know and it's just like which type of hot are we talking about yeah and then it happens during the winter it's like oh yeah like you know the oats the oats do it and I'm like correlation versus causation you put them in the stable they stop going out as much they don't as much fire as friends freedom then you start feeding oats and then the oats get blamed instead of the environment yeah you know I've had that conversation so many times with the guys at the yard and they all look at me like like I'm talking witchcraft you know because it challenges so much of what we what we know and what we hear all of the time um you know and and the thing is I would say as well like you know we've dived into from a caine supplement perspective there are lots of things that you can do from a behavioural perspective you know like to support your horse regardless of whether you want to keep doing the carmine supplements though I suggest you save your money um and you know or as you say like a medication anti-anxiety you still require behaviour modification training and it's layered and yes it seems like a lot of work but that horse that I talked about Ace I haven't seen them in four years they're fine yeah you know like so do you know what I mean like I I joke that like my goal is that you don't need me anymore. Oh yeah yeah that and I was like yeah I'm just like that's that's my goal you know and then you know the joke is yeah that's not a great business model is it like but like but this is it's just like the supplement companies want you to keep coming back and keep spending the cut money and keep spending the money and keep spending the money when do you stop taking that supplement?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Yeah when do you stop feeding it you know like whereas myself and Jen and a good behaviorist like will turn around and go I don't want you to I don't you know I don't want you coming back anymore and the quote that I really like and I do say it to to my clients I'm like a a good mentor hopes you'll move on a great mentor knows you will yeah and that's and that's it it's like we're constantly buying supplements when does it end and that would be my kind of my take home yeah that's so true because even when if you take let's see vitamin T bitumin T vitamin B 12 or something for energy um really if that's if you need it like if you haven't because speaking from experience I very often need to take it now and again my diet's not up to scratch.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

I was gonna say like and not to go into your own one kind of personal things but like you know you like that is based on a health condition do you know what I mean? Yeah you need to take that as a result and like I'm as say again if there's you know things like folic acid and iron deficiencies do exist and you have to have a supplement for that as humans like and they're usually prescribed you do blood tests and they're monitored by a GP and you're supported that way those things do exist like 100% you know but you know as say like you still speak to your GP like Jen and your other consultants and all of that is like disgust.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Yeah but like even that said I'm one of those people who's like very borderline so it's like if I if I actually do eat well and I meet my five day and I make sure I do have a good balanced diet I don't need the I don't need them.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

So it's like it's one of these ones that it's not there's medical issues in which case you actually your body and this is the same for horses struggles to maintain or absorb there's absorption issues or those sorts of things is a medical condition in which case you need a very specific um dose and that's prescribed and then there should be blood work to monitor that. Again it's prescribed but if there's a deficiency that's actually diet related then adding in a supplement so it's like putting a plaster on a behavior there we need to start with making sure that the basics that's your diet and the environment and the mental health is all being met before going any further if your baseline isn't covered and isn't fulfilled anything on top of that is just a plaster.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

And if we bring it back to like going to a show and stuff as well as I say I don't think it's fair to ask it of the horse. Yeah you wouldn't ask it of yourself if you if you were running low on energy and you know diet and things weren't good and you're feeling a bit anxious and stressed and you know you weren't in a good place and somebody was like you're gonna go do this marathon I wouldn't think that that was fair either. No. You know and like it's not fun either. Who wants to go and have a battle.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

We've all cancelled plans let's be honest we have all cancelled plans at some point in our lives and gone do you know what I'm just not up for that today. And if I do go I'm gonna be in the worst mood or I won't have fun or snap at somebody or I'll be really anxious. But we don't that's a very generalized statement but I I hope that we could do more of that for our animals and recognizing that that they're having one of those days that actually it's just not the day for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

Yeah I do like the expression not today of all days why all why why but yes yeah it's exactly that um on that note I think have we talked long it's about an hour yeah um I think we've we've we hit all the points I'm just looking at my notes I don't think I have anything else um I could give out about garlic a little bit more but I think I've already done that justice. Uh yeah I'm good talked about placebo talked about sorry um if we missed anything guys by all means um let us know yeah and um if there are any nutritionists by any chance listening and they want to come on and have a chat with us and educate us on nutrition oh that wasn't even that wasn't even like a snarky that was genuinely because genuinely it's a whole profession. Would love that because the links between nutrition and behaviour oh we didn't even talk about the gut brain access but that's whatever we'll oh no no oh that because the thing is that's so important I know but that's gonna have to be another one I can't be neither you've said another too long here but then that deserves to be its own episode right yeah because that's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

Yeah so genuinely so gut brain access is one we'll come back to um genuinely anyone wants to jump on podcast with us when we've when we touch your specialist area and you're listening you're listening always feel free you we would love to have other guests and people on the on the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:45

Join do you want to join this madness like you know putting a brand to this you could come on anonymously because it's like I don't want to be associated. I would love a nutritionist to listen to this and then we could do um an episode of like you know writing the wrongs I want them to listen to it and then go can you guys a score made a yeah all the stuff that you actually got wrong and what did you get right because like obviously like and the thing is this is it like we do CPD every year myself and Jen is about 30 hours that we have to do in submission stuff for for our clinical accreditation but the majority of it is is behavioral based right Jen like you know and pharmaceuticals and that sort of stuff because that's where we specialized I did equine nutrition in 2016. When did you do it? Nutrition uh the year the year after you yeah so 2017 so we're 10 years out of date really like do you know what I mean and like so a lot can happen in that time we stay up to date with things absolutely but not to the same level that nutrition would be doing 30 hours. So I would love if a nutritionist could because that would be quite a fun episode that would give me the giggles listen to it and be like yeah give us a score right and we can call it right the wrongs um that'd be good just be good fun for me and then we can get educated and get some CPD as well so and we can just be along to the right yeah why not good content is it not to know this might be one of these ones where we're like oh this is great content and then it just yeah maybe it's for us maybe it's for us indulgent just for us and then everyone's a passenger but that's fine I'm doing it for me so if they don't want to listen you just don't listen to that episode of the honest we do have the podcast just for us anyway I know pretty much our pastly hemorrhaging money you know like I know I joked about sponsors earlier we don't have sponsors no we sponsor ourselves we sponsor ourselves who's sponsoring this uh the equine method I sponsor Barbara and Barbara sponsors me there we go that's a nice way of looking at it um right okay will we go yes right bye until next time guys thank you bye