"What is being an Informed Rider?" With Katie Hancox - Part One

This week we were really lucky to have wounderful Katie Hancox from Informed Rider Coaching, for our first ever guest appearance on the podcast, joining us for a brilliant two-part chat about all things informed riding (we couldn't stop at one podcast... cos we have problems)

Katie is an equestrian coach who helps riders make sense of the huge amount of advice, opinions, and information that exists in the horse world (much needed!). 

Her work focuses on helping riders understand the “why” behind what they are doing, rather than just following textbook instructions or trying endless quick fixes we see online/socials.

Katie uses the latest research and her extensive knowledge in equine science, to help you create the best partnership you can have iwth your horse. Katies goal is for you to achieve your goals, big or small and help you navigate the dangerous advice we often see out there.

You can find Katie and learn more about her work at: https://www.informedridercoaching.co.uk/

#ClappingIsFun , as Katie found out.  #BePartoftheClap , when you know, you know!

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Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Right. I don't know what just happened. I don't know what just happened, but when I clapped, I left the chat group. I wasn't even touching my phone. The second clap, everything just went quiet for me, and I was like, why is it so quiet? And my phone had cut me out of the call. No small done phone. I and this is why I I'm cursed. I wasn't even Barbara, I wasn't even touching my phone.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

The thing is, I know you've said that because the face I have on me right now, my mouth is open, and I'm just looking into the dead air, and I'm like, I I don't understand. I don't understand. Are we doing a third clap for prosperity? No, no, no. This is just us. We're just recording now. This is this is it. I'm not editing any more than that. I was gonna do a really cute cold open, right? And go like, oh, you know, welcome, special episode. We've got a lovely guest, Jennifer Nash. And then Jen goes, you know, no, Barbara. No, no, I'm here every week. As you've already given, it was just like wrong person. Uh, but yes, as as you guess, we do have uh a guest, uh Katie. Say hi Katie. Hi, Katie. Oh, and that's the oldest joke. I know, David does that all the time as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Did I did I not say you you tell me what to do and I'll do it? So I know I'm Ron Burgundy.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Very obedient. The question mark. Um so yeah, welcome, Katie, our very first guest. On uh Jen says debatemum, but I think it the acronym is more like da B Titum. Um if you try and mush all the letters together and make it an acronym so we don't have to say danger that both ends tricky in the middle. But we can say in it. You know. Would you say debate em? Like if you go, so it's D-A-B-E T-I-T-M. So I think it's like da B Titum.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Da be titum. I just think Debatum to me. I'm just like.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Also, I'm re I'm renowned for not remembering. Debatitem.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Debate item.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I don't know. Now you've said it so many times it makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

I don't know. I'd have to, I think I'd have to like, yeah, think about that, write it, and yeah, I'd have to think about that. Too much pr too many brain cells, too much brain power for that. Jeez. Every time you say it, I think I just think of um Sherlock when he says it. Is that what is that why you named it that way? Yeah, that's yeah, it's all right. Perfect. Yeah, perfect. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

So so he doesn't quite say it. He says I think his phrase is you know, I don't like horses because they're dangerous and uh at both ends, and then tricky in the middle.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

A tricky in the middle is definitely says he definitely says they're tricky in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

He definitely says tricky in the middle, definitely. The origin okay, the original book, okay, he says uncomfortable. Oh definitely. I'm guessing you're talking about the TV show. Uh the film. The film. The film, yeah. The film. No, no, no, that's not canon in my head. Um the film, thanks for me. The film. Um The film. Yeah, the the trilogy was very much and that's it, yeah, because to sit on both ends of the spectrum is dangerous. And it's actually a lot harder to sit in the middle and go, do you know what? I can see both sides of the argument. Like I I you know, and to change all the time, and then you're not having it's also, I wouldn't mind, it's also easier in many ways, because then you don't have to be perfect. If you sit on one end of the spectrum, it means you have to be constantly right and never proved wrong. Like which is the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

You just have you just have to remember which side of the spectrum you're on, innit? That's hard. Whereas if you just kind of whereas if you kind of just go, huh, that's interesting, and then move on, then that's fine. Whereas like to constantly have to be at one end, you're a bit like, oh man, which end am I at today? Oh right, yeah. That one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

You also have to constantly defend it, as you say, and it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Exactly. You know, too much hard work that.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Um the uh so Katie, who are you for one? Uh because we know, but other people don't. Um who am I?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Good question. Um, so I am an equestrian coach, so I call myself. Um I have my own business, which is informed writer coaching. Um, and I guess first and foremost, I I'm an educator, I suppose. Um so I come from an academic uh background, so I uh lectured at university in etcoin science and various fields of etcoin performance, and then saw a bit of a gap in the market, thinking we've got all of this academia, academic knowledge and things that just isn't getting out there into the coalface when I went out coaching um people on their horses, riders on their horses, owners. Um I was sort of realizing that all the stuff that we take as common knowledge as academics and people in the know, if you will, um just isn't out there. And I suddenly thought, well, what's the point of doing all this research if it's not actually reaching the people who need to know? Um hence why informed rider coaching came about. Because I want to make informed riders. So who am I? I'm a coach, uh certified horse geek, um, certified horsepower lover. If it's not four legs, it's four wheels. Um and yeah, that is me. I'm I'm generally a perpetual coach.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

You're a total petrol head as well. Forget that. Yeah, total petrol head. You know, you do a lot of like actual like haven't you been in like rally races and stuff as well?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

No, just track. Like property.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I would love to be, I would love to do rallying. That would be fun. What's it called? Because I call it Nuremberg. Nurburgering, but that's not true. Haven't been to Nuremberg. I always get that wrong.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

You'd be surprised how many people do. Um yeah, no, not Nuremberg. I'm not that way inclined. Um, yeah, no, no Nurbergering and various track days. Um and yeah, I can be regularly found at the side of a racetrack. Um both Equine and not. It's fast. It's track day-like. It's fun, yeah, it's fast, it's fun. There's actually so many parallels between um I can imagine driving cars fast and riding horses. Um the instructors that I've had have said that I'm pretty fearless, and I'm like, lads, I'm in a car with airbags, a roll cage, I'm at least a metre away from whatever I might hit. Like, I'm golden, like I'm absolutely fine. I was like, I hoon my horse at the gallops at 35 miles an hour with a tiny bit of plastic on my head. I'm all good. But this is this is it.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I always I always think horsey people, do you know it? You know, people go like, oh, you're either extroverted or you're introverted, and you're talking about spectrum, someone's everywhere, like at once. But I always think that like horsey people are like you've got a type of people. I think horsey people are like a plus plus plus plus plus. Do you know what I mean? And I playfully am like, you know, I say almost call us maniacs. Like David thinks he's just like you're just an adrenaline junkie. Because like when I think of all the things that people that I know of horse-ridden have done, like I say, like I've gone scuba diving, I've my advanced open water dive, I've dived really deep, I'm not scared about going down there, you know, with the risks and everything like that. Like, even though I'm scared of heights, like absolutely rock climbing, the fact that I'm scared of heights sometimes makes it more fun, you know, the times that I've done it. And you're just like, what's wrong with you? And my uncles funny, you're talking about the hence when you bring up the petrol head. My uncle in Glasgow um he passed away recently, but he was a rally car racer, he was a mechanic, and he used to build his own roll cages um and cars and stuff, and he'd go to like France and and race and stuff. And the first time he built his first roll cage, built his rally car, he moved into France, entrances and competition was ready to go. He literally hit the first corner, rolled it, smashed it into pieces, right? Nice, um, and my um Aunt Margaret came running onto the track, like you know, going like, oh my god, he came out without a scratch on him as he was taking off like his helmet to like check. She accidentally ended up like knocking into him, and then him falling to the ground gave him a concussion. So the joke was he was absolutely fine. It was his wife that maimed him on the track. So yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, that sounds about right. It's um I know it's something I would love to do at some point. Do you have like a race course close to you?

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, yeah. So I live um about 20 minutes away from Alton Park, which is uh don't be given away, and we don't be doxing people, don't be giving away dresses. Cheshire. Alton Park is in Cheshire, and I'm in the vicinity of it. Um, so yeah, it's awesome, it's an awesome track as well. It's it's a lot of fun. Um and yeah, I've actually really enjoyed like learning how to drive fast on a track. Um because I've been doing horses for so long, it's sort of is when I sit on a horse, it's like second nature, it's like you you just kind of know you almost don't think about it, you just do it. So actually, going learning how to drive fast in a car and how a car handles is I've really enjoyed learning that new skill. Um, and I actually think it's brought a lot more to my coaching um and my thought process.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, um, because it's learning learning a new skill in general, like you're learning it, but you're also being coached by someone else, yeah, and then you have the ability to not understand how coaching works so you can see what they're doing and take those gems from it. And there's as you say, there's so many parallels. I watched a doc, you know, I always think it's funny I say with the the race, like we're talking about like climate change and cars and you know, things like that, and the and the emissions, you know. But one of the things that they, you know, say as a parallel is like once we took horses off the road as carriage and transport and everything else, yeah, you know, it actually opened up better welfare conversations and equitation science because we could improve that aspect of it. And they make the same arguments now for like cars. They're like, if we can get more like e you know, environmentally friendly cars for you know, I say even like I say tow if we get an electric car to tow trailers or do farm equipment, you know, get more EVs or stuff on the cars, it would mean that you would actually be able to do that side of the the racing cars like in a more environmentally friendly way and put more effort into it and it would actually balance out. So yeah, I find it really interesting. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

I mean, yeah, there's so much to it. Um, and I'm just really enjoying like learning about it and sort of indulging that um that little side, but yeah, there's a huge amount that I've taken from it and huge amount of parallels, and actually some of the coaches that I've been around um tracks with have we've had really good like coaching conversations um and just sort of yet understanding how people work and how people think because it's very, very similar if you're in the passenger seat of a car going really, really fast and you're telling someone to break and they're not breaking, like it's exactly the same as seeing someone getting you know towed about on a horse, and you're like, you're gonna be out of control in three, two, yep, there you are, and you're you're sort of there helpless, and you've sort of got to talk them down off that ledge. So um yeah, it's really interesting seeing how they do it and how it works, um, and and that understanding of of stuff. Because what I found when I um when I drive is that I can feel what's going on, I can feel what the car is doing, but I've got no idea like what what it is. So I'm like, oh, I can feel this, and like, oh yeah, that's understeer. And I'm like, oh right, okay, that's what Understeer is. Cool, didn't know that. Um or I'm like, oh, I can feel the car moving and doing this, and then like, yeah, yeah, that's because of this suspension part or whatever. And I'm like, oh right, cool. So it's really interesting that I've got the feel, but not the knowledge. So I'm quite enjoying learning that, and I see that a lot in people with horses as well, um, in that they can sometimes feel what they're doing, but they don't have a clue how, or whatever. So sometimes I'm sort of telling, giving people their instructions and coaching them, and I'm like, Oh yeah, did you feel that? And they're like, Uh yeah, I did actually. I'm like, right, that was you know the the horse equivalent of understeer or oversteer or like whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Yeah, so isn't that just a lovely crossover between the fact that these are two big high stress sports, but ultimately it's humans are involved. So, unless you can actively coach a human, you can be the best horseman in the world, but you've got to be able to get through to the person. As thought the way you describe the understeer and stuff that you can feel it, but you don't know what it is. Yeah, spot on, it's exactly what half the people with horses experience. They're like, Okay, I can feel something, but is this a good feeling? I don't know, is it a good feeling? Um that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Can confirm understeer is not a great feeling. Um but but like again, like once you know what it is, it's like okay, here's how not to do that. And you're like, oh okay, I got you. Um and it's and I think that's that's you know, that that's a lot of the time where I see the the parallels come from. Um and and you know, in a car, when you drive it fast, sort of like, you know, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And it's exactly the same with horses. Like the less input you put in, the better it is. You know, the more you hammer at that steering wheel or whatever, the more tricky the car is gonna be. It's exactly the same with the horse. The more you fiddle and nag and kick and pull and squeeze and click and do all this, it's basically information overload, and your horse is just gonna go, okay, I'm I'm done with you now, in whichever way it decides to be done with you. Shutting down or exploding or somewhere in the middle, like that's what it does, right? It just goes, I'm pissed off with you, please stop. Um and and it's and it's understanding that. And yeah, with the coaching thing, for me, there was actually a I read a uh thread on social media somewhere about you know coaching, it always pops up, doesn't it? And for me, uh it was more along the lines of um do you need to be qualified to coach and have the experience, etc. Because it's this age-old um argument, isn't it? I know age-old argument.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Oh yeah, people who people do and teachers coach, or that something like that. It's like people who can, can, people who can't teach, or there's something really degrading about saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

And there's always people who would be like, oh, well, you know, I'd rather train with someone who's ridden and produced a horse to Grand Prix than someone who's got all of the qualifications but never ridden to Grand Prix. And I'm like, there is something in that, like, I do understand someone who has ridden to that level has a knowledge of being at that level, but it's exactly what we said a couple of minutes ago. If you can't actually convey that, what is the point? And coaching itself is for me a discipline and of and itself, like it's you have to learn how to do it. And you know, going back to the car thing, I've sat with some like really cool racing drivers, like absolute legends, who had no idea were absolute legends until they were like, Oh my god, you went rabbit so-and-so, and I was like, Oh, right, cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Like, well, they were a bit rubbish, and I absolutely cracked my pants because he wasn't very good, but I'm sure he's a really good driver, and then of being around with someone but having a good coach, but like this is it, it's just like it is a skill to teach and coach. Yes, and like I do find it's a way of kind of trying to shut down the conversation as well. It's like, oh, if you haven't ridden to that level, then what could you possibly know? But we don't say that about like if you know what I mean, we don't say that about like primary and secondary school teachers. We've all had amazing teachers when we were growing up, like in primary and secondary school that we still remember today, you know, whether it was physics or whatever, they they were inventing like you know, the Higgs boson or finding it. Do you know what I mean? They were really good teachers, and you could have gone on to be an amazing physicist, yeah, like thanks to their guidance. There are other things that come from coaching and training, yeah. And it's so funny you say that because one of my kind of bugbears, and that goes back to you know, this idea of being informed, and I just say academic is like you know, like ultimately, like my background is very much like I would refer to myself as like an academic, yeah, you know, equine behavior. It's like it's very much like whatever like the kind of design says and is there, and understanding that and bringing it to the forefront because we know it's applicable, we know it works. Like there's so many, you know, like you get the same thing as well, like, particularly in this country, there's a lot of hunting and a lot of jumping. Yeah, and if you don't hunt and jump, what could you possibly know? And I'm like, quite a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, quite a lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Think I was like, you know, yeah, because this is it, it's and we talk about like that A-level personality, the fast one. It's like I don't want to, you know, go charging across like the countryside, you know, like a bat out of hell, hoping I make it over half these jumps and down these ditches. Some people love that and they love getting the kicks. It is I it I just do not find that enjoyable at all. But if you had a horse that was struggling to jump a ditch or a drain, could I support you and help you do that? Was their behavioral problem? Absolutely. There, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Can I help you from a coaching and a mental perspective like get on that horse and be able to do it? Because you've got a psychological barrier, probably, but the chances are I'd go to someone like you. Yeah, and that's different.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah, yeah. And it's exactly the same from my perspective, like, because I I look at it from a partnership. So the way I describe my coaching is is partnership-centered coaching. Because for me, there's a human and there's a horse, and then there's that communication, it's the exactly the name of your podcast, isn't it? Is that that and that tricky bit in the middle is that elixir that we're all trying to master, if you will, of like how can we bring this horse-human dyad together? Because the closer and better we can get that, just the better everything is. Um and and sort of one of the I guess one of the main drivers I started coaching and going freelance again was because I was like, I just want to make this place better for the horses. And if I can, you know, whilst I can't, you know, necessarily talk horse, I can talk human and I can make humans better so they can be better with their horses. Um, and that for me is a win-win. But yeah, it's very much um it's it's something that's interestingly. I had a friend who wanted to do a PhD on this partnership-centered coaching, because when you look at coaching dynamics and when you speak to people, a lot of people come away from lessons and say, Yeah, we focused a lot on the horse and we did loads of this, um, or we focused a lot on me and we didn't focus a lot on the horse. And I'm like, actually, it's it has it has to be both because it's yeah, it's a conversation, you know, it's it's exactly the same as what we're doing here, you know. If it's just me talking, it's not really a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

And I think it has to be picked that up and our lessons. So I I get lessons from Katie now and again because I forgot about you.

unknown 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

I love Katie's approach, right? And because Katie's got a really I'm saying talking about you in a third person here, and because you've got a great understanding and grass and behaviour, it's really fun for us to cross over. So, like my last lesson with Katie, we were looking at a lot of canter work of Ruben because again, so that partnership-centred approach, he's coming back into work, he's getting a bit older, he's not enjoying trot. So we spent the majority of the lesson in walking canter. But what I really loved is like we had a routine of a sort of pattern, and then he started to learn the pattern and second-guessing everything, and then you were just like, just play with it and take it as it comes, and it was just a really nice, you know, session together of really applying the theory to the real world situation and actually and having fun, you know, training and doing some hard stuff and having fun, and then that's when you get that balance because it's like, well, Ruben wants Ruben wants to do it this way, okay. Well, we'll we'll mix that up a little bit then and make use of it instead of fighting it.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah, and I think that's important, like the capital F fun for me, because riding is it's a hobby for the most part for the majority of people. For the majority of people I teach, it's a hobby, it's what they do, it's what they work really, really hard for to enjoy. And literally, I'm like, if you don't know how to enjoy your horse, like what is the point? Like, you know, if you're not putting your foot in the stirrup and going, This is absolutely grade one fun. Like, what is what is the point? Like, for whatever whether you find grade one fun in in doing a competitive dressage test or or you know, hacking, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter, it just needs to be enjoyable. And I think what I've learned a lot of because and Jen will know this from my um from my previous years, is I actually really despised Equine behavior because I had some really terrible lecturers who were just really biased and just really not helpful. And I was like, oh, I just can't be bothered with behavior, like it's too black and white and too like oh I mean, I had one lecturer who was like, I don't like artificial insemination because it's artificial, and I was like, Yeah, clues in the name, like, but I don't really you know, and it was that sort of like oh, this is just not useful.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

But I really like the learning back to like good teachers again, exactly. So that you know what I mean. You have someone who is probably and I but I find a lot when this happens here, we as say, like, you know, unfortunately, like for vets, they're not really taught about behavior and they get like maybe one or two weeks. Well, we're not as coaches, usually, yeah, you know, yeah, and like the people who teach it don't really want to do behavior, they don't really have to, but they need to take that module, so they don't really care about it that much. Yeah, so when they do teach it, they're not as passionate about it. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

I mean, I think I think they were passionate, but they were just putting the passion in the wrong areas. But I I sort of took some of the learning theory stuff that we did. I was like, oh, I actually really enjoy that. And um and and talk it. I remember learning about learning theory and going, oh yeah, I do that. Oh yeah, I do that, oh yeah, I do that with my horse. And I learned what like positive reinforcement was and negative reinforcement was. Was and forgive me, some of the other like behavioural terms that you use commonplace, like what desensitization was and familiarization and what these actual things were. Because it's a bit coming back to like the cars, like I knew what I was feeling, but I didn't know it was understeer or oversteer. I was like, oh right, okay. So I through me coaching and going back, I've sort of realized I actually knew quite a lot about behaviour, and I've really enjoyed working and seeing how you. I know I've done a couple of days shadowing you, Jen, and I find that so useful because you guys obviously are pretty much solely focused on the horse most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Um not really, yeah, you know, training the human for the horse. Yeah, you you would be surprised. True, you know, um because but the but because the thing is as well, like I very rarely, you know, when it comes to say the dogs or the horses, I very rarely, you know, I'm totally dedicated to that horse. Like, you know, I'm very much going like explain what I'm doing, you know, I will, you know, show one, do one, do you know what I mean? Like um, teach one that sort of thing. So like I I very much am like we'll start with the horse and assess them to see whether they're capable, right? It doesn't underly medical issues, things like that. You know, usually establish something with them, like a pattern of training and behavior so that the horse understands it, demonstrate it, explain it to the the client, and then go, brilliant, you want to jump in and have a go? Yeah, and then they're usually all thumbs and they drop things and they feel really embarrassed, and then I usually make the joke and go, Did I make that look easy? And they're like, Yes, and I'm like, that's okay, we're here to learn, and then I will coach them through it. Yeah, and one of the things that you talk about, like shadowing and learning from other people, like you know, I've learned this one from Jen over the years, she's very good about doing it as well. Is like we have a tendency, say somebody does things the wrong way, right? I'm doing in quotations, you know, they they miss the marker, or like you know, they don't provide the reinforcement fast enough, or they don't get the timing. You know, coaches who don't need to know how to coach or work with the human will go, no, no, no, not like this, do it that way. Shuts down the conversation immediately, and it's the worst psychological thing you can do to someone. You know, so like I will always turn around and go, fantastic, brilliant, take a pause for a second. We're just gonna give him a break. The next time, what I want you to do, and then I usually repeat exactly the same thing, but we've given them encouragement and then they get it right, yeah, you know, exactly the way, and it's practice and it's all the rest of it, and you go back in, and then I'll go, fantastic, like let's tag team out. And again, the reason I do that is twofold. It's like a it teaches them, gives them a cognitive break. Yeah, it also means that the horse can generalize with the other person as well. So you need me there to do a little bit. Then the horse gets some good repetitions where I'm working with them, you know, and I've got my timing good. Yeah, um, even just a couple of weeks ago, I had a needle shy horse, so horse was a lot more comfortable with the owner touching the neck, you know. When it came to me, it was like you're a stranger, I don't know you. So, not only does it give me the opportunity to set the horse up and make them more comfortable for veterinary exams, but it also means that the owner can watch me and then swap out, and then the horse feels more comfortable because the owner's touching them. So, like it's really important to have that. So there's a huge amount of coaching, and even just deliver because there's a lot of information as well, like in those sessions, like you know, it's it's two hours and they're really intense to try and remember everything. Giving them homework and shaping plans that people can work through, yeah, that's accessible and good, and like you know, doesn't overload them with information, you know, that helps them break it down. Like, I know I say person task environment all the time, but again, that you know, like and I like and it's one of my I have loads of like little things like that because it sticks in people's minds and helps them remember, and if they can't remember everything from the session, so yeah, there there's yeah, there's a huge amount of coaching in it. Like it's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Sorry, just put it there because it's it's because it's no, but away because how much in your behavioural qualms that you do, how much coaching theory do you do in that? A little bit. Do you?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I will I I've yeah, that's a lot of it's like behavioral psychology and stuff as well. That's interesting. There's a lot of human psychology and that's interesting, you know, and that side of things because ultimately and and I would say as well, there's a you know, because there's an emotional component to the person that you're dealing with. Yes. So a lot of it comes down to psychology, and when you're doing because behavioral psychology was first developed, like you know, or like you know, it's the behavior and psychology, it was all about the physiological side for the Americans, you know. So back during the kind of the Cold War at the start of the 90s, like because they were trying to weaponize dolphins to settle the Russians, stuff like that. It was just all this mad scientist stuff, yeah. We laugh, but I'm not it's true. Um, and then the Europeans very much had like this idea of like ethology, like the natural behavior of the animals, and there was kind of like a division, like history-wise, but as a result of that, what you ended up with was like this amalgamation of ethology, so like the the natural behavior of the horse, the forage, friends, and freedom. But then you also ended up with like your learning theory, your operate conditioning, like why people you know the do things, and then somewhere in between you have like the innate and like you know, yeah, behaviors that are there, extrinsic and strict extrinsic motivators, but a lot of it is human psychology. A lot of what we learn is still heavily based on human psychology. Yeah, so if you've studied behavior in any kind of depth, you're gonna understand a huge amount of human psychology. Yes, yeah, and I think it's really important in the job that me and Jen do, and you you won't get this as much case, I'm sure, but I'm sure it happens. But I have been out to consultations where I'm sitting beside someone who is weeping and crying their eyes out because we're at a point where this dog may be euthanized. Yes, you know, or they've bought a dog because they had a loss in their their family, or they've struggled to do X, Y, and Z with their horse, their horse is getting older, and now they've reached out, they've been injured, they've you know been seriously injured, they're scared of their horse, and they're really at you know, it's usually the last person to be called.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You you you are yeah, your last chance saloon kind of thing. And and I do really admire you.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I really wish we were the first solution.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, because it makes life so much easier, doesn't it? Just but I find that interesting because from a coaching perspective, so for me, I'm pretty much the in terms of coaching qualifications by paper, I am pretty much the lowest grade of coach. So I'm a BHS AI in old money, which is now a BHS stage three complete coach. Whatever it is, whatever it is complete, yeah. And a UK C C level two. So in in coaching terms, I'm entry level in terms of um on paper qualifications. But obviously behind me I've got 25 years plus of watchings from some of the greats and CPD. Some of the better Yeah, like so much to that. And oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh my degrees, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

And teaching and lecturing. I've got informal, like we just we stop her from doing ourselves dirty here, Tim.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Um but the thing is, besides all of that, we very in in terms of coaching education, because I've looked at it, we get very, very little in terms of psychology, in terms of behavior, in terms of and in terms of equine behavior as well. Like we don't get, I know from doing my so BHS stage three, and I I don't Jen, have you done some of your stages? I don't or the same APC Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I kind of locked the print stopped. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

I've got stage two, and then that's when they change the pathways.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah. So you get very minimal in terms of yeah, yeah. You get very minimal in terms of equip behavior stuff. Like you get the basics.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Oh yeah, it's like look for the signs of ill health and all that, and it's like not much people the horse isn't calling, apparently it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Ears back angry, ears forward, happy.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Stage stage two, stage two, right? Uh I remember sitting there at one point he actually said you don't answer any more questions, right? To me. And I was like, okay, fine. Yeah, shut up, but one this is like was it 2014 or 15? But like he literally was sitting there, he started asking me questions about like stereotypical behavior, and I was like, got this in the bag, right? Yeah, and you know, so I was just like, you know, listing all the reasons, you know, like early weaning, blah blah blah. And he was like, Okay, there's one more thing, and I'm like, I've listed everything. Do you know what I mean? Like I have told you all of the reasons, and he was like, It begins with a letter, you know, and it's like one more thing, yeah, and I was like, he can't possibly want it. And I was like, It's a dopaminergic reaction in the mesoccumbus, like you know, what yeah, and he looked at me like I had slapped him, and he went, and he just went, boredom, and I was like, That's what I said. So that's when he was like, You stop talking now, you pass shush, like you know, yeah. So yeah, they're not they're not fit for like they're not fit for that purpose, they're fit for lots of other purposes, but they're not and I do think this is where we fall short a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Um, because I mean I've sort of found myself in a bubble where thankfully I very rarely see bad stuff now. Um, and that's why like sometimes I get a bit shocked when I when I speak to you guys, and you're like, oh yeah, I was out here and I witnessed this. And I was like, really? We still really we're still we're still at some stage.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Like necks and horses' heads.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah, okay, cool, right. And you know, I think still hard tying three-month-old foals to a metal bar and still doing all that, and and and you know, the coaching, and I still see a lot of youth coaches actually worryingly, still like screaming at the child, you know, like kick it, but you know, the youth, like the sort of pony club instructors of old, if you will. And I'm like, surely we're over this because there's been such a massive drive to change, like, we're we're no longer, I'm no longer an AI, I'm an uh, I'm a coach. The BHS has changed all their coaching structures, so they're called coaches. UKCC is it's coaching. You've got your level five coaching certificate and all of this kind of stuff. Um, but still I look at it and I'm like, there's there's just not enough education around like horse behavior and equine behavior and people actually taking the time to genuinely understand horses. Like it's it's such fabulous feedback to hear, because I have so much respect, obviously, for you guys in terms of of what you do professionally. So to get like feedback of like you know to get feedback of like I really enjoyed that, you really understood it. We were after, I was like, cool, I'm on the right, yeah, I'm on the right lines then.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Um but I want more people like you in the industry because like to go like because this is it, it's like I don't have enough time. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Occasionally it happens, right, where I get an opportunity where I'm coaching riding, and it's usually, you know, what do we get, Jen? Like no brakes for one, rushing jumps, you know, and it's usually really simple of like just installing you know operate and cues again to light aids, okay. And once I've done that, really simple part of that, really simple, super simple, super easy. But you but you would be, but it is actually that's the beauty of it, right? It is allowed, it's usually my robe.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

If it was that easy, everybody'd be doing it, right? Oh, yeah, just install operate conditioning, you just do a light aid and this, yeah, easy. Poof.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Say what mark and reward. What are you on about? Genuinely can do that in a session, you know, and people are usually delighted and like you know, it's wonderful because then you've got the horse responding to really nice light cues, fantastic, we've got breaks again, everyone's safe. Um, and it's in those moments where I'm like, this is so lovely standing in an arena, actually coaching someone, where it's like we've got a nice where I yeah, it's wonderful. Did it for years. When I did the BHS stuff, love to do it before I had like finished my masters and like went on to do the clinical. I used to do it part-time, paid for my livery for my horse, happy days. Used to take the ride outs and stuff as well. So yeah, sat Sunday morning, you know, with a load of people, and I was like, and now we're gonna go for a little trot, everybody ready, up down, up down, you know, like that.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

You've got the rhythm and everything, like just like that. Was so so coach that whole rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Oh, but like I had like a speech and stuff. It's like we're gonna go for a little cancer here now, nobody's allowed to pass me, we're up in the open field, and if somebody passed me, I'd be like, get that. You know, it's like you don't pass the lane rider, you know, and like and it was lovely, and it was great because you had a nice opportunity to work with people as well. Because people will come up on those ride-outs even and go, I'd like to improve like my trot. And I'm like, Okay, fantastic. You know, like let's imagine you know, your thigh is a windscreen wiper, don't be gripping with your knees, we're coming up, we're giving this, you know, teaching them the balance and how to feel like the back leg and things like that, and that was so much fun. It is genuinely the funnest thing in the world. Yeah, I do not have time anymore to do it. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, you the no time for it at all, yeah. Um, and it just doesn't fit into the schedule. And when somebody gets to a certain point where I'm like, okay, great, like I have this dog, we've done all the behavioural modification. Now, what you need is six weeks, say, with like an established trainer, where we can do socialization with other dogs, we can do some other kind of I don't like calling it obedience work, but like teaching them commands and things like that, you know. Um, and I just don't like calling it that because it's like you must obey, and it's like, oh, we're asking them, you know. Please sit, please, great, here's a bit of sausage, you know. Like, so I I've got lots of people that I that do co c classes and stuff like that. So people can pay for a package for six weeks with trainers that I really trust around here for dogs, and it's like 270 quid. I am too expensive to get out for an hour to train your dog or horse. Like, it's not fair. Do you know what I mean? It really isn't because I don't have the time and like my expertise in the clinical side of stuff as well, and I don't think it's fair on people, you know, it's just that simple. Um, so I would much rather be able to go, Great, we've got this horse in a really good position, we're gonna get your confidence back up, you have all the basics, and they'll you know, and go to somebody like you where I can go, you're gonna understand the behavioral side of things, you know that they've been set up with good behavior and understanding, yeah, and they're gonna fly. You don't have anybody like that around here. Yeah, like it's just it's just non-existent.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

I wouldn't trust any of them. See, this is one of the important things about I feel like the phrase staying in pe staying in your lane is a bit I don't know, there's a negative connection. You're not about to trigger me. Possibly, but there's an element it's got negative connotations because of the way it's used, but actually, if we if we were in the industry able to have more collaboration and be able to hand over and be like, Cool, I've done this bit and now I'm handing over, and you know, I'm gonna hand over to Katie and Katie's gonna take you to X, Y, and Z. Because to be honest, like, and I've had and I've had riders and clients, we've done the backing, we've done so far. But if they asked me, Jen, what are the aids for half past? I'd be like, I have no idea. I could tell you how to I could teach the horse how to do it on its own without you. Um but how how I teach you to do it on your horse, I actually can't remember anymore. So that's when I'm like, cool, I've done my job, time to hand over and let somebody else pick this up because Jack of all trades. And that would be so phenomenal for the industry if people could be less egotistic and a little bit more aware.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Yeah, I think I do think egos get in the way. It's a good book, that ego, ego is the enemy. It's a good book, Ryan Holliday, if you haven't read it. Recommendations.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

It's hit not sponsors. Not sponsors. We could be getting a market in mind. Katie, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

I do it all the time. Barbara goes to the book. It's a book, man.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

It's free, it's free for everybody. Other books are available. That's just a good one. You see that from there.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

We all can see.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

But yeah, I mean, I do think ego is I used to think ego was a problem with with coaches. Um, but I do think there's a lot of um there's a lot of coaches who don't know what their limits are, and it's kind of like what we were saying at the very beginning of you don't know what you don't know. Um and and it's sort of like I'm very lucky in a position where from my background I have access to a lot of information because of my academic career. So like my next door neighbor and landlord is a sports psychologist. She's amazing. Um, you know, I've got you guys, I'm like, you know, I've got this horse behavior, hit me with it. Um, you know, I've got lots of other like performance people, fitness people, nutrition, you know, like loads of people that if I don't know the answer to, I can find out and probably refer them to. So I come from a very privileged position in that sense. Um, and I do believe that other coaches don't have that because I've said this for a long time. It's such a lonely place. When you're out there freelancing, working with horses and riders, you just have to back yourself. And you're there in the moment, and you just have to back yourself and go for it. And there isn't um there isn't anyone to sort of check in and go, is this, is this, does this seem does this, does this seem working? Um, and that's one thing that I miss coming from. So I did all my training at um the Talon School of Equitation down in Gloucestershire. Um, and what a privilege that was because you're just constantly surrounded by top-level writers, top-level coaches, and you were never really, I never really coaching on my own for like the first probably four or five years of my career. I always had a more experienced person. They weren't necessarily interfering, they were just there. So if they saw something about to get out of hand or not quite right, they would just be there. So you could only fall so far. So I think I I was very lucky, and this is only sort of on reflection that I've thought about this. Um, very lucky to be basically completely immersed in a world where it was just done correctly, and you got to see so much like the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, how to get the good, the bad, and the ugly, how to get the ugly to good, and and everything in between. Um, and I think that's what when I see a lot of coaching going on, I'm watching them. And there's some people, some coaches that I've watched, and I'm like, in my opinion, that's downright, downright dangerous what you're doing and what and what you're asking to do, like from a from a horse point of view, like some some people were like asking basically like the horse was very, it's a very it was a very experienced pony. It was thinking, I think it was like an FEI junior pony, knew its job, you could see it, it knew its job, and it was just very it would just chip in every single that's how it jumped, it just chipped in, that's how it jumped. And this coach was like, come faster, gallop, gallop, gallop, come faster, come faster, come faster, come faster. And I was like, You're gonna gallop this horse and this rider into a problem because you're trying to get it to do something that it can't do, and you're just you're you're just riding this, this, this into problems.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

It's like asking the question, like, what is Wednesday over and over and over again? 100%. It's and it's like Yeah, and it's not good for the person or the horse. It's not how it is.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Like it just accepts how it is.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Um I think it's so interesting because you said like it's a lonely place, and this I mean by like, you know, it's the same for behaviorists and like but everybody who's on their own, so you've got physios, farriers, behaviorists, coaches, trainers, even like dentists, it's you know, it's it's considered a very lonely place. And this is because I I honestly believe is this doesn't really happen the same way with like the dog side of things, it does still happen, they are still like that a little bit, but I find it happens more with like the horsey side of things, is because there's a competitive element to equestrian sports, it's just it again the nature is it's called equestrian sports, right? You know, you don't you have that association straight there. Then people see it as if you share knowledge or ideas with somebody else, if you talk about you know how you're pricing, yeah, or if you're coming on my turf or somebody's take it my client or this, that, and the other, or you're working. Yeah, they don't see it as collaboration, and people get very precious about their ideas, whereas you talked there about like you know, working like with you know, being able to coach and having more, I don't want to say senior people, but people who are there for as your peer group, like who were able to step in and support, they were technically sharing and supporting you and sharing ideas and seeing how it was done so that you could learn and develop. At no point was that seen as like a competition with you, and that I think is where we talk about like the ego side of things because people get very get very care, like you know, like I know I said about person task environment, you know, person task environment. Like, you know, I don't mind anybody who uses that. Like, you know, I don't I don't know because I use it all the time for it or exactly because my I'm sitting because I'm the kind of person who goes, brilliant, that's getting out there, because the more people who say it, I'm the same, the more we're changing. I'm the same. You know, I don't need to be precious about it, and people get very precious about these things, like you know, and I I think there's like I I say I'm a broken record here for saying it, but like rising tides lifts all boats. Yeah. And if if you're sitting there, Katie, saying that like this isn't in the best interest of the horse, you know, or the rider, and we need to be more compassionate, and Jen's saying exactly the same thing, and I'm saying exactly the same thing, and we're supporting each other with the language, that means you've got three people saying it.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Which means it gets out there more and it becomes more of an like you it becomes more normalized.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Because it is exhausting. Like it is exhausting to see. And and I went through a long period of time, actually, before I realized. Like just how good my training was and how lucky I was to be, you know, right place, right time and all that. I was just, you know, I'd watch coaches and be like, they just need to turn over their left hand. Like, Jesus God, lady, like that all you need, like just you know, I'd be looking, I'd be like sort of trying to telepathically tell the coach how to fix the problem. Like, can you not see? Why can you not is anyone else seeing this? You know, like why why can why are we not seeing this? And then suddenly I realized I was like, because they're not seeing it, because they don't know. Because and people ask me all the time, oh, do you ride horses? Do you get on horses? I'm like, not very often now, to be honest. No, not unless I'm like, there's a big something here is is not computing. But because I've got so much experience and because I've seen so much on the ground, I can often see it before they can even feel it. And I don't, and I can make the correction before, you know, and I don't need to get on it. And I found a lot, people are like, oh, well, you will you just get on? I'm like, no, because I don't need to get on. Like I have no need to get on at all. Like, I don't, and and it's not actually gonna help you in in in in this sort of case.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

It goes against partner-centred coaching, right? Because that's 100% gets involved, the partnership between the horse and rider, their owner, it's gone, it's changed.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Yeah, exactly the same with me and Jen though as well. It's just like if somebody it's one of those things, it's like I'm here to like support you because I can't be there every single day with your animal, you're there every single day with your animal. So it's about teaching you how to do it so you can do it. I, you know, I like and my husband's not a horsey person, but like anytime he's seen people, you know, get lessons and stuff, and the rider's standing at the sidelines and the coaches riding the horse for the entire hour. He's like, I would be so pissed off if I paid that money and I didn't get to actually ride my own horse. Yeah, do you know what I mean? He's like, Yeah, I don't understand about that.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

And I don't and it, but it for me it works twofold because number one, you're ruining the partnership, and I actually have a client who fell foul of this. Um, she was always getting the coach or the person helping her at the time to ride, and she was essentially you know, ducking out of riding it, and then she basically got herself into such a swiz that she just lost all of her confidence, which is a side note, I think confidence is bullshit, but we can come back to that. Um but you know, she just got out of the habit, and she it was too easy to just say, Oh, well, you just get on, you just get on, and actually she was completely missing out in the partnership, and now she's come coaching with me, and she literally said she's like, I can't believe this, I've you know, I've never had this before. And I was like, Yeah, because you weren't riding your horse because your coach always was. And I do see a lot of coaches, and again, this comes back to coaching being a skill and of itself, a lot of coaches who can't communicate well. You'll see them pull the rider off the horse, not literally, and say, Oh, just get off and I'll and I'll get on, and they'll do it, and then the horse will do it and it'll go really well, and then the rider will get on and be like, Oh yeah, this feels really good. And I'm like, Cool, right, and then they'll move on to the next thing. And I'm like, no, no, you need to tell that rider how to do it because for me, one of my ethos is I coach so you don't need me. Like, I don't want to be seeing you weekly. Like, if I have to see you weekly and we're going over the same thing again and again, I'm not doing my job. What's going on? Right, yeah, 100%. You should be going longer and longer between lessons, you know, bad for business, but hey ho, like that's not really what we're in it for, apparently. Um, but yeah, I coach so you don't need me. And I, you know, one of my my informed equestrians' ethos is engage empower-enable. I want to engage you in a process to empower you to do the thing to enable you to do the thing that you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Um you end up loving learning and you want people to love learning and continue to explore.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

As you said at the start, it's like it's a hobby, like you know, as say like we all have different like hobbies, and you talked about like the racing stuff as well. Like you know, you know, I'll say if you enjoy something, you're going to actively want to go and learn more about it, and like you know, educate yourself as well. If we constantly have it just you know, we are humans, we like learning things, it feels good to learn and want to do it. But like, but ultimately, like, hey, like that's our philosophy too, me and Jenna's same. It's just like I I want you to not need me anymore. Like, yeah, if you constantly need me, I've done something wrong. Like, if you can't do it when I'm not there anymore, then something has seriously gone wrong. And you m a lot of the time, sometimes it is medical, obviously, obviously, like you know, for our side of things, like there's a lot of like you know, horses and and dogs and like animals where they cannot do the training and they cannot achieve that because there is something else maintaining the behavior.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I can I geek out on some human psychology dead quick? Please do. So that that dynamic you just described there about the rider, the owner, you know, who pays for the lessons but then doesn't do the work, but then you've got the coach who gets on. This is where I feel like more coaches and everyone, I just I just think all human beings need more qualifications and understanding of human psychology because there you've got there, you've got someone again. If we think about function, motivation, maintenance of behavior, human behavior, how is that serving the owner? They're not having to do it. What's the motivation? Maybe it's fear or embarrassment. What's maintaining it is the fact that the coach says yes, and then you potentially have a coach who has a bit of an ego, or maybe it's not ego, but gets um reinforcement through the joy of riding, and then you've actually got complete circles of reinforcement within their individual behaviors, and then they're feeding off each other, and it's a perfect storm, and that's why these things happen, and it's just it's so funny when you everything comes back to behavior, even the way the humans are interacting with each other.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

I mean, I'm fascinated by sports psychology, and the more like coaching is basically practical sports psychology, that's basically all it is, like um, and it and it's massive, and yeah, you've hit the nail on the head there with what it is, is like, and I do think I don't know, maybe maybe we're some sort of like sycophants as horse owners, riders, trainers, in that actually I've heard some people like go on and like, oh, I just want you to tell me that that it's me, that's I'm the problem. And I'm like, why are we like this? Like, we must be the only sport whereby like the more kicking, the more of a kicking that you get, the the more like happy people are. Like, oh, I can tell you why we get this Oh now we're gonna get deep into human psychology.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

I mean, I mean this is psychology 101. Like, I completely understand the I completely understand the science.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

But you get the same thing with like I'll walk out to like you know, dog people or like horse people, and like they will go, I know there's a problem I've crit, I know I've done this, I know I've done it. Like, you know, and like I'm like, I'm about to burst your bubble here, you didn't do that. Number one, yeah, that horse is lame. Number two, that one has a medical issue, and like we get them checked and they've got the medical issue, and I'm like, so you did nothing, but it is because, and it's overwhelmingly, you know, women. I do, you know, get men say it as well, so that's not uh overly unnecessarily gender things, but the people who I eventually convince when we get to the end that they are not the problem, I usually find out that somebody at some point has told them they are and is stuck sticks in their head, and that's it. It's just like you're sit up, you're not riding that properly. That's why that horse is doing it. Do you know what I mean? Then I come out and go, Do you know what? Lame on the right four. Like, yeah, you know, it's like that's why I was like, I mean, I was I was I was subject to that.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Like I gave up. So back when I was like a teenager, I was big into eventing, absolutely loved it, was heading for junior teams, had bought the horse, got everything, was really gunning for it, based myself with a top event rider in in Scotland, thinking this is where I need to be, this is how I need to do it. Um, and basically that coaching landed me giving up horses completely, selling everything lock, stock, and barrel, uh, when I was 17 years old, because one of the things that was screamed at me was you're ruining this horse. So sad. It was vicious, like absolutely vicious. And I went from a kid who was so hungry for, I mean, I was 11 years old when I first went to Tallinn. Like, you know, I was young, like really young, you know, and and um and I was hungry for it, so hungry to to and my mum, like if you ever meet my mother, like she'll tell you, like, oh yeah, I had to I had to grab you, like crying to go and ride your horse because I didn't want to, because I was like, I don't want to ride my horse with her. I don't want to ride my horse with her, and and to the point where they were like, okay, we'll we'll sell everything. And like I genuinely didn't look at sit on a horse for two, two and a half, three years. Um, and it was show jumping because I I just I was, you know, she yeah, she she completely got in my head. And even now, some days I still have like this will be 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

You still think about it?

SPEAKER_02 53:28

Yeah, yeah, it's still there sometimes. I go into the show jumping arena and I'm like, who can I can I still do this? And I know now how to deal with it because you know, psychology, I understand it, X, Y, Z, but it's still there. And that's one of the drivers for me coaching, because I genuinely do not want anyone to feel how I felt in that moment because it's just horrendous, and it really like it is a trigger point for me. Um, you know, if if if that subject's ever, I mean, luckily it doesn't for me, but um you know, if anyone sort of ever was to question me and my methods, I'm just like, you have to understand like where like I am a person who's genuinely been subject to terrible coaching, which is why it's such a trigger point for me when I see it, I'm like, stop it. A bit more so with kids, because it's more impressionable on kids than an adult, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Generally speaking.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

But again, there's there's a safeguarding issue there. Yeah, huge. So on on that note, I'm gonna call this as part one, uh, because I think it's a really nice place to come back and you know, for next week's episode, guys, and then we can actually talk about like because this leads perfectly into like pressure, guilt, and the perfectionism of writing, and cover that in a part two.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah. If you'll have me back.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Of course I will. And hopefully I'm gonna tell you I've got to tell you why I think no, sorry, Katie. This has been this, you know, the hour hasn't flown by and it's not been like fascinating to listen to you. And I definitely don't want parties. So can I do one round-off question though?

SPEAKER_03 55:02

Just a round off question for Katie based on just because you're not. No, it'll be super quick. It'll be super quick, it was super quick.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Like just it's not actually gonna be next week. We're banking them. I'm gonna stop this, and then you know we're gonna stay on. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Right, okay, that's fine. Yeah, that's kind of for the audience. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

Okay, just based on what you just told us there, Katie, just as like a little round-off question, what would be like just one or two pieces of advice for giving feedback? And like how to like how to help coach, like a turn of phrase or something? Because like Barbara, you spoke about one earlier, but like noticing something, going, okay, so next time, like are there common phrases that you find yourself saying that like other coaches could maybe use?

SPEAKER_02 55:45

So one of the things I do, and you guys all know this from psychology, is I I try and never tell my riders not to do something. You'll very rarely hear me say, Don't do X. Don't do that behavior. Yeah, because your your brain doesn't register, don't, and the minute someone says don't think of a purple elephant, boom, you're all now thinking of purple elephants, right? It's psychology 101. So I always try and when I'm wanting my riders to do something, I will always say, you know, turn your left hand over or look up or whatever. I will always, if I want them to stop doing something, I will always tell them what I want them to do rather than say stop looking down and start looking up. Because you don't actually register the negative, and that's a big thing I see in coach communication is they're constantly telling riders what not to do, but not what to do. Um, and I also that's how I train my horses as well, is like I I was gonna say, like I think what people do with their horses do as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Don't, you know, don't rush the jumps. No, what behavior do you actually want instead?

SPEAKER_02 56:47

But I think about it as a rider from a rider perspective. I go, what kind of rider do you want to be? You know, and I think me, I want to be light, I want to be quick. I I kind of want to be lazy, like I want to do as little as possible. Like I want to put my horse into drive mode and then sit there and get to my destination, basically. But that's good equitation, Casey. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

But a lot of people don't the word self-carriage has been bastardized, but that's true self-carriage.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Yeah, 100%. I'm a lazy rider. I don't want to kick, I don't want to pull. Just literally go for a hack with my horse.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

I ask for a walk, and she will stay and walk until I ask her to do something else. Exactly. That's exactly what I want. Happier for her, happier for me, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Exactly, exactly. So that's a big one when I'm coaching, is is um you won't hear me use the word don't or stop or something like that. Unless I'm like having a joke, which sometimes I do because sarcasm is, you know, I'm fluent in it. But um yeah, so that that that's a big one. And also I think um you need to take the time to understand, and I guess this is where your psychology comes in, understand what kind of person you're dealing with. Because a lot of the time when I first go to writers, I sort of, you know, as you do, try and find a you get a bit of a story, and normally they say, Oh, I'm terrible at this, I don't sit up straight, and I don't do this, and then so you point out all of their faults, and so automatically they're going into a negative thing. It's very common, it seems to just be people just love putting themselves down, but equally you then get the two ends of the spectrum of I'm wonderful and I don't really know why I've got a lesson, but but yeah, I I see as a coach I try and if I see someone that quite likes the negative, you know, some people quite like to be told they're doing something wrong, I again try and spin it in that yeah, you are dropping your right hip, but actually what you need to do is this. Yeah, and ignore it and redirect. Yeah, exactly. Rather than saying, again, I just try and avoid at all times saying stop doing this. Or if I've got a rider that's maybe a bit sort of um thick in the head in terms of like I'm struggling to get information, them to take the information on. I again, because of from experience, I'm able to put them into an exercise where I know the horse will then perform what I want it to, even if the rider gets it wrong. So there's like a you know, depending on what it is, but there's there's there's a bank of exercises, and you guys will do this too, I'm sure. Like I feel like you did that with me.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

I'm like, hold on, thick-headed.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Hold on, that's like our lesson. It's quite possible, yeah. Yeah, I mean with Ruben with Ruben, that exercise was like this is this will fix your problems because I know I just knew that that exercise would fix problems, but with you, it was just you you understood the assignment. Don't take it back, I'm not genuinely like it Jen is because the thing is with the teaching someone like Jen who has that partnership, like the partnership there is so good. I don't think it's difficult, I think it's just it's challenging because it's like, well, actually, you I don't need to teach your ABCs. You're already like reading, speed reading Jane Austen, like you're already there. I'm here to just go, ah, have you thought about this? Here's a different way of doing this. You know, I'm here to share the toolbox because I've got 25 spanners and Jen might only have five.

unknown 1:00:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

And that's there's not many tools in the toolkit.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

But it's like you said, like, you know, you if if I'm like Jen, can you teach Yeah, totally? Can you teach the horse half pass on the ground? Yeah, no problem. Can you teach me how to do half-pass? No, not a clue. Whereas I'm like, cool, here's 15 ways that you can do this. Um, and again, that that that part of my coaching education came from being sat next to these amazing trainers for years, and I would just sit for hours as like an 11-year-old, 12-year-old, 13-year-old, just watching horses come through that menage and just watch all shapes, sizes, um, you know, and and watch these coaches go, okay, cool, that spanner's not working, right? Next one, that spanner's not working, next one. So I always try and try and sort of work through the problem, and I like to have a conversation. So I would say to coaches, try and be positive, avoid using the word don't. Um, you know, the what did you say? I like the way you said it. Was it acknowledge and redirect? Yeah, that's what I do. That's that's the good way of putting it. See, I love you, behavior. You've always got a thing for all the things.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Um, but that that one's, and I think that one I like I've written as a note because that one we need to come back to in part two, um, because that really falls into you know, the you know, pressure, the guilt, you know, acknowledging you know, human emotions is really important, and that translates across from coaches and behaviors. Yeah, um, but I am gonna cut it there and we're gonna see you guys next week for part two, which we're not gonna record next week, but you're gonna hear next week. We're just gonna keep going. Okay. Um we clap? Oh well we can we we can clap, but we don't worry. In case you're clapping. I know about the clapping now, I understand. Unlike that dog that's like, do I sit now?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

What about now? Do I sit now?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Do we sit now? We we could we we can say goodbye first, and you can and also in case I know everybody's gotten too excited now. Uh in case, and I'm like, you know, Pete said do you want to plug your website and your socials for me, Katie? And at the start of the next one, we'll plug it at the start in case people, you know, don't get to this end. So where can everybody find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

So I'm on the instaface, so Instagram and Facebook as Informed Writer Coaching. Um, and my website is also informed writer coaching. If you type it into any search engine, I shall pop up. If you type it into the Tinterweb, it will be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

And I'll put your details into like the description and stuff if you want to go and give you a follow and you know, um, yeah, learn more about being a foreign writer coach. Awesome. Right. See you in the next one, guys. See you in the next one. Cheers, see you soon. Bye bye. Bye. Now you can clap, Katie. Well done.