"What is being an Informed Rider?" With Katie Hancox - Part Two

This week we were really lucky to have wounderful Katie Hancox from Informed Rider Coaching, for our first ever guest appearance on the podcast, joining us for a brilliant two-part chat about all things informed riding (we couldn't stop at one podcast... cos we have problems)

Katie is an equestrian coach who helps riders make sense of the huge amount of advice, opinions, and information that exists in the horse world (much needed!). 

Her work focuses on helping riders understand the “why” behind what they are doing, rather than just following textbook instructions or trying endless quick fixes we see online/socials.

Katie uses the latest research and her extensive knowledge in equine science, to help you create the best partnership you can have iwth your horse. Katies goal is for you to achieve your goals, big or small and help you navigate the dangerous advice we often see out there.

You can find Katie and learn more about her work at: https://www.informedridercoaching.co.uk/

#ClappingIsFun , as Katie found out.  #BePartoftheClap , when you know, you know!

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Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:54

We have clapped and we are back. So we are still with Katie. We have kidnapped her and we did not release her because we were enjoying our conversation so much. And we're continuing with part two. So I really loved what you were saying there, Katie. Especially the question you get advice for coaches. And it touches on so many topics of maybe like the negative emotions that can spiral within the industry and how coaches need to be have a responsibility in how they're delivering their feedback and their coaching styles. Because I think when we're working with people, we're when you have a client come to you, they're in a very vulnerable position, a very vulnerable place. And the delivery isn't right, it's so easy for you know elements of bullying and harassment, all these things to happen. It must be and I hate hearing your story from before and what you've experienced. You can hear that coming through. So I would I would just love to know more about how you you know safeguard your clients and your um informed equestrians within your group. Because you have you have like a a group, don't you? That and it's like a community.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. So um yeah, a lot of everything that I do is born from my own experience. Um because just a very quick history, adding to that, is my my parents were just happy that I had uh an interest. Not so happy that I picked one of the most expensive interests that you can possibly have in horses, but yeah, they were super encouraging. They literally knew nothing about horses at all, and I was very lucky to find a riding school that was supportive. Um, you know, a first pony in Mr. Charles that was, you know, absolute legendary and didn't try and kill me. Um, and parents who were just happy to again be open, like they didn't know anything about horses, so they actively sort of sought out the best support that they could for me. Um, which again I think is where I get it from. Is like if I don't know something, I'll ask because that's the environment I've been brought up in. So yeah, to have it all come crashing down. Yeah, but again, that was taken advantage of by the coach who who made me give up for two years because they basically sort of took the power aspects and were like, right, I can I've got carte blanche here, I can do what I want, and I've got a kid who's tree, Casey. Uh I would have been hires 16? 15, 16. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So you but you're a child. I know when you're that age you don't think you know, you think you're grown up, but you're a child. So as far as I'm concerned, there's a safeguarding issue. I would have I I have a big problem with do you know anything. Anything when there's a child involved where we're putting them either in emotional or physical danger. You're the adult in the room. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it was never your fault, like it was up to the adults to to But I but I never had that community around me.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Obviously, I had my parents who were, you know, they just wanted the best for me. Um, but I never had that community of um and obviously it was before the term of social media, which kind of breaks me because I don't like admitting that I'm old, but yeah. Back in the day. Um so I didn't have that community, and I didn't have that. So obviously I had talent and I was very lucky to go back. And it was actually when I went down to Talent, and they were like, There's nothing wrong with your writing, you've you've got a mental block here. And again, that's where it sparked of like, oh, okay, that's where I understood. But that was a mental block here. But he yeah, but he was very I mean, you know, Jerry Sinnetter's his name, he's an absolute legend of a coach. He's just he's the one who's properly sorted me out. He actually cared and he watched me ride and he believed in me, and he put me on this horse who it was a four-star horse, and he basically put up a cross pole and I went and jumped it, and I came he put it up again, and it came round, and the horse refused. And I broke down into tears. I was like, Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. He was like, You did nothing wrong there, you were on a perfect stride, you you you were you know, you were fine, but your your mind said no, basically. Yeah, it was like you need someone, and he actually said, Someone or something has got into your head, and it was at that point basically I went back home and I was like, Yeah, I can't do this anymore. Um, so that's when everything was sold, locked up a barrel. So that's when I was sort of in a weird position because I was, and actually, funny enough, the coach in Scotland was like, You should be careful who you listen to. Basically, was trying to stop me from going to anyone else. Um, but that's it, sort of the background of where I come from is why I wanted to create a safe community, which is why my membership, the informed equestrians, is exactly that. It's a group of people. We have a WhatsApp group. Um, Jen, you're a part of it because my thing is like I want coaches in there so people could put questions in there and know that they're getting um genuine informed responses, not just Sally on socials going, Oh, have you tried this? Um turmeric. Have you tried patting it four times and tickling its tummy, like whatever? Um, you know, and it's genuine response, and it's and the people in there, like anyone is welcome, but at the same time, we're I'm I am quite protective of it, I'm very protective of it because I understand how one bad apple can ruin the crop. Um, and it's just and and I've seen how it works. The power of that community is phenomenal because a lot of people these days are on their own yards, they don't have um you know other people around them, um, and they do feel completely isolated. And to have that group, and they they call it the virtual yard. These are what the guys call it, they call it the virtual yard, and they're like, it's great, I've got the virtual yard, I've just asked them this, and it keeps everybody accountable. We share goals. I think, I mean, everybody shares their new nail pictures, so we all get our nails done and everyone's like, look at my new nails, it's wonderful. Yeah, so it's not just um horsey stuff. Um, and we meet weekly as well. We have a weekly um group call where I will sort of call it a masterclass. So a lot of the time I will um give a lecture basically on a pertinent topic. So a lot of the time it's I want to know more about you know nutrition or training or psychology or behavior. Jen, you've done some you've done some guest lectures for us. Um I've had nutritionists in there, I've had um PTs in there. Um just to give just to give that information out there, like I said at the in part one, uh the information that we have, science-based, evidence-based, needs to get out there. And again, it's what you said, Barb, as well, about if 10 people know we're talking about diversity.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah, if 10 people know about the the the best way to do something, then that's 10 more people and it should perpetuate. Um so yeah, that that's kind of where I born informative questions from and why I'm so passionate about the the sort of online stuff, because obviously I only get an hour with you in the menage, and actually it's what happens outside of that. And I always say to my clients, like, text me. If you have a good ride, just text me because nothing fills me more with joy, and you guys will be the same, right? Nothing fills me more with joy as a coach to say I just had an awesome ride on my horse. They did what I did what you said and it worked, and I was just like, boom, there you go. That's why we do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

At least you hear, yeah, you like you very rarely hearing it's yeah, good news, like you know, as I say, good news does not travel as well. Yeah, exactly. Usually, it was like no news is good news, is usually what happens, like, and then I hear six months later, oh, so and so recommended me to you, their flying with their dog or their horse.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

I'm like, Cool, I didn't hear, you know, but also it's a safe space where they can share the oh man, I had a terrible ride, and no one's gonna be like, Oh, did you try turmeric and scratch it on the belly and chat, you know what I mean? It's like uh because they know they'll come to yeah, like it's really nice.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Like, I don't because like I'm I'm I'm in the group, but I don't keep like close tabs on it unless if some if somebody tags me with a specific behaviour question, then I'll drop in. Um, but like you know, the messages pop up every now and again, and it is just so nice to see them like sharing, and it's the um it's instant support, instant validation. It is not that have you, it's not there's like no unsolicited advice, it's just straight away I've been there, here's the empathy, we're part of a team, we're all informed equestrians together, yeah, and like you've done such a nice job in curating that. It's so nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And it's thanks for saying that, but like genuinely, it's it's that that community, because I thought when I first started it, I was like, gotta deliver, gotta deliver top class masterclasses, got to, got to, got to. And then I quickly realized that actually it's the community that's doing all the heavy lifting here. That's what people are here for, and they will openly admit it and say, Leah, your master classes are great, but actually we just really love the group. Um, and also what I wanted to steer away from is this toxic positivity because that is just as bad as the opposite, you know, like, oh, you're doing a grand job. Like you're not doing a grand job, you're struggling and you're flailing because you haven't acknowledged your like emotions and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Like, I say one of the things that drives me bananas, like on like you know, a personal note the last couple of years is like, you know, it's like I've packed on the weight, like I'm 20 kilos like heavier than yeah, you know, I was like, and I say 30, you know, kilos heavier than at the peak of like my riding and stuff, and you know, I say between a list of like injuries between knee and tearing ligaments in my ankle, and then my horse having surgery and yeah, you know, things I'll say, like on my own health problems will do it. But I'll say to people, be like, I feel really shit. Like, you know, I'm obese. And people go, Oh god, no, Barbara, you're not. I'm like, no, no, no. I like clinic medically and clinically, I am obese. I was like, it's not a pejorative, like you know, it's not like it's not a negative thing, or people will or the the one thing that people would say is like, I'll go, like, no, no, like I feel crap, I am obese. And they go, Oh god, Barbara, you're a lovely lady, you like you look gorgeous. And I'm like, oh no, I never said I didn't look lovely. Like, you know what I mean? Like you know, not they're not mutually exclusive, and I'm like, but you know, as like it's you know, because they're seen as like a moral failing with it, and I hate the the extra positivity when it comes to it. I'm like, I'm just trying to tell you I feel yeah, exactly. It's just like I've been sick for I've been sick for a while, I've had a number of injuries, I feel really self-conscious because I know what I should look like, I know what my level of fitness could be. But I'm getting older, my horse is getting older, things get harder, like I just feel crap about it. I don't want to hear you say, like, oh no, don't be dated, you look great. Yeah. Well, it's it's just as damaging.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And I think funny enough is that. It's unsame. Yeah, and I was having this conversation about culture and and where we're at with the question because I'm always I'm always the kind of the oddity looking back from the hill, looking and going, okay, where are we at? What's the lie of the land here, people? Like, you know, I'm the one that when big controversy controversies and stuff break out, instead of commenting straight away and be like, I'm just gonna see how this plays out, I'll I'll come back to this in two weeks and see where we're at with with things. We'll see which side is winning and then information gabby. Yeah, exactly. Um, but I I find what I find interesting is is when I look at like unaffiliated competitions or or even just like dabbing social media or or whatever, um, I've seen this change from so so lots of people are giving it a go, which I think is great. You know, get out there and do what you want with your horse, crack on, but please just make sure you're doing it the right way. And what I've seen is a shift, and I don't know if this is when you guys were I know Jen, you did some competing when when you were younger and stuff, but from my perspective, I wouldn't go competing unless I knew I was good enough to do that thing. So like I wouldn't go and jump a 60 centimetre round unless I knew I was good enough to jump a 60 centimeter or an 80 centimeter, or I wouldn't do it if I didn't think I could get round a prelim or not, you know, insert whatever task. I wouldn't go and put myself in a competitive environment if I didn't think I was up to the job.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Yeah, there was always an expectation of placing, like even if it was in top 10, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

I I think you but I think there's an expectation. I know where where you're going, it's like everybody seems to be like, I have to go and commute and stuff. I can tell you now. I've no no no, I mean like no, but I think that that's where I think that's why. Do you know what I mean? Like I know what you're saying, like because I have never had a desire to compete, but I've never liked sports. I've never liked any sport. I was made to do hockey when I was growing up. I think I've you know what I mean. I always prefer my individual stuff, like I used to like doing like athletics and going running. Do you know individual stuff that I felt I enjoyed, but I have felt the pressure where people have gone, like any horse that I've had over the years, people are like, what are you gonna do with her? And I've gone just enjoy her myself. Yeah, and they're like, Oh no, but you should go showing with them. Oh, she'd be a great jumper. And I'm like, but I don't enjoy sports, and I see it at my yard. People go, Oh, we have to do, we have to join the local pony club, we have to do X, Y, and Z, because there's a pressure there that makes them do it. Not everybody did that.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

I think I think in this topic, this is this is definitely I'm gonna sit in the middle. There's definitely this is one of these topics where both are true. So like I think there's I think there's two, there's two two theater.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Where I was going with it, where just to because you're that what you've said is almost an aside to how I was gonna wrap this up. Is we've gone from the am I good enough to do it? If I'm good enough, I'll do it, to oh actually, I'm not as bad as her, so I'll give it a go. I can't be I can't be as bad as them. Oh, that was terrible. I'm not as bad as that, so we'll give it a go. And that's what I see a lot of, which I think is incredibly dangerous, you know, because I'm like we we shouldn't be going, oh well, I can't be any worse than that person, because I'm not any worse than that person, I'll give it a go, rather than I am good enough to do this, I've done my homework, I'll give it a go.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, and this is the two sides of it, isn't it? It's the there's the one side that's like I feel pressure to do something, and then there's it's the incompetent competence, um, unconscious competence, unconscious competence, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you've got those the ones you're on about, Katie, who are maybe consciously aware that maybe the competency isn't completely there, but validating it against others below them rather than looking at the standard, yes, and then you've got the other side of people who are consciously incompetent, and I'm using this on the actual scale, I'm not being mean here, guys, for our listeners, but feel the social pressure. So, this is what I mean, like both, yeah, this is this is actually a big topic where I would say that both sides of this are very, very true, and the effects of the city. I mean, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

I get it as a professional as well. I mean, I had another coach ask me just last week when I was schooling Abbey, like, oh, what'd you do with this one? And I was like, not a lot really, we just have fun. And she was like, Yeah, but what do you do? And I was like, Well, I was like, I I seem to have a shortage of time and money at the same time, so not a lot. Like, like I just have fun, I just enjoy having a horse, yeah, a very nice horse to ride at the end of a day.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, I don't know if you find it, Katie, it's definitely the case here, and what like I was kind of getting it, it's like the you know, we don't you have a lot of like one-off kind of people with but most people are on yards, like where I am, and each yard will have its own kind of thing discipline. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

So like, you know, where I keep my horse is like an old hunting yard. Now they don't hunt anymore. Yeah. Um, but like some people still do, but like, you know, I've been there for the better part of 15 years. Yeah. Like, and you know, back in the day it was everybody hunts. And it was the the amount of pressure that was put on me to go, you have to go hunting, you have to go hunting, and you aren't good enough unless you do it. And people and it would be like there would be kind of like a nastiness to it as well, like as well as the pressure and it it would be like you know, it's like it would be, oh Barbara can't do that. She's either too anxious or she's too worried, or what you know, they'd say all these sort of different things, and I'm like, No, I just don't want to. Yeah. I don't why is that so confusing?

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Like, and then when I did start to do like, you know, like the PO Wars, which is just is Orientarian by horseback basically. Um, and you know, it's as an endurance element, but a map reading element, and you have to navigate and stuff. And I loved it because I loved hiking when I was younger, and like that was my big thing. I'd say individual stuff, and I could do it on my own, wasn't in pairs, yeah, didn't really matter necessarily the comp competition elements. The competition all came down to me Orienteering by map. So I loved it. Yeah, so I'd go out and do that bitless and pee on on my own, and people's jaw would hit the ground. So you look like he had three heads, yeah. Because they were just they were sitting there going, like, you're gonna you're gonna go out on the roads and do like you know head collar?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

What? You know, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah and a like a map that you have never you don't know where you're going until the day you get the map. You've never done this before, and you're gonna go out and do that. And they'd be like, and on your own, Barbara, and they'd be so shocked, and I'd be like, Yeah, no, it'll be great fun. Yeah, and it because because it didn't compute with their ideal, their idea of what they had already envisioned of me. In their minds, they went, You don't go hunting because you're too scared or you're not good enough, or whatever it happened to be. And I went, No, I didn't do it because I didn't want to do it. Yeah, but then to go and do something like that, that would have scared them to be on their own in what they perceived as like having no control, like you know, as they of their horse on the roads in an unknown environment. And I'm like, for me, that's a big adventure. I don't know where I'm going. I could genuinely get lost.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I don't think it's psychology 101 again, isn't it? Like, I I I go and see people and they're like, oh no, I can't ride an arena because it it scares me. And I'm like, an arena where it's completely safe, completely enclosed. If you fall off, you can't really go wrong. If you fall off, you're on a soft surface. Like it's pretty much as safe as you can get if you're on a horse. Like, I'm like, oh no, no, I'd much rather have my lesson in a field. I'm like, in a field that isn't enclosed, that I'm trying to do a dynamic risk assessment and going, well, the rider wants to do it. If this goes wrong, we're we're fucked. Like, but like, but it's this, and it and it comes down to, and again, in psychology, what I see a lot of riders is um what I see a lot of as you get older, if you don't use it, you lose it a lot quicker. And this is why I kind of think the whole confidence thing is bullshit, because all confidence is, is just a stack of proof, stack of evidence that you that you can do stuff. And this confidence thing has been leveraged to high hell and and actually compounded the problem of these nervous writers and stuff like that, and made them believe that they have a confidence problem. They don't have a confidence problem, they have a they have a not doing it problem. If you haven't done something, and then you think about not doing something, your your brain then goes, Oh yeah, good point. You probably shouldn't do that. Yeah, you might die doing that. Oh, oh yeah, you might oh no, we don't want to exit the food chain quickly now, do we? Oh no, you should probably not do that. Yeah, let's not do that today. Yeah, let's just avoid that. Oh, oh, not confident are you? And then it it becomes a thing. Whereas I I look at that as riders, and I I think we touched on this in part one when when I said about the the the driving the car thing with a helmet and a roll cage and earbags and stuff like that. And people come to me and ride's like, oh, I'm a bit nervous and a bit that. And I'm like, Well, you've just managed to get on that horse and ride it down the road to the menage without thinking about it. And they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, Well, this is a horse, a half-ton animal who could decide at any point to not do this, and you're stuffed, you know. I was like, You just and you've just put your foot in the stirrup with not even thinking about any of that, and they're like, All right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

And I'm like, Yeah, you've done the hardest thing, like you've already accepted that you're going to put your hat your life in the hands of a completely, you know, free animal in it to effect, and it's compounded, I think, Katie, as well, unfortunately, because they're what they're doing is they're jumping 10 steps ahead, right? In their brain, they're jumping 10 steps ahead, not from that mounting up walking into the arena. They've already done, you know, they've saddled up their horse, they've tacked their horse up correctly, they've done all those other bits of beaches, they've done that 10 minutes of walking, yeah, which they're comfortable. But the entire time the brain is jumping to an event that was particularly scary and is stuck. And this comes that you get a feedback loop, right? So if you I know you guys know this, but for the the sake of the audience, the psychology side of things, when you have a traumatic event and usually a horse bolting or falling off is trauma, by the way. It is because it's called a trauma loop because your body or your brain has has hit trauma. If you don't take time to kind of process that, what happens is it get hits the the hind brain, and you're you know, you're basically you're go you go into instinct and survival mode. Yes. So what happens in that trauma loop is you don't get a chance to process that information correctly, um, and it sits there and it loops. And every time you then think about that memory of that time that your horse bolted or you fell off or something scary happened, you hit back to all of the same emotions and they come flooding back to the surface. So you get this wave of like anxiety and fear and hormones that all circle back there. As Katie said, it's not necessarily a confidence problem in that situation. What you're dealing with is you need behavioral modification to break that trauma loop. Yeah, and in order to do that, is you need systematic desensitization, which means you slowly do small increments that prove that's your stacked on evidence, as you talked about. Yeah, every time you do it, so you walk into the arena, you do 10 minutes where you get on your horse, you walk into the arena, and you're feeling very anxious, and then you you know, because you are in this trauma loop. So what you do is like, and if this was like a behavioral modification, I'm sure it's exactly the same we do with like um coaching, is you're doing systematic desensitization where you go, brilliant. I just want you to walk around the arena once. Just walk around the arena once, and just focus on, just focus on like say, and you know, you do something else that feels as say, focus on like you know, can you feel the left hind moving underneath you? The right hind. I want you to count left, right, left, right, feel that movement. Great, you did it. You did you just did a walk around the arena. It's perfect. So that's tick number one. We're going to do it again. And we repeat it three times. And then the reason you start to feel more relaxed is not because you're suddenly gaining confidence, as you say. Yeah. It's because we're breaking that trauma loop by doing systematic desensitization and creating another event.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

The problem that I have, and I hope I you know can continue here because I know you're on the same page, is the kick on and carry on culture. That's flooding. That's the that's the other thing, is like is people get into this situation where like they're so they go, like, oh, I've lost my confidence, and someone goes, Right, lads, we got to kick on and carry on. You get on that horse and you canter it. Yeah. You know, that'll that'll teach you. No. What that does is it floods you and it dresses you further into this trauma loop. And you went, and the reason I say loop is like the event happens, the trigger happens, your body floods with these hormones because it's going, I need to protect myself from something that happened before. Yeah. Then you, you know, I say you have your antecedents, and then you've the consequence of that. That's the behavior you then perform. Yeah. And then it loops back because what you were afraid of happening happened anyway. Yeah. And then you flood back to like these, you know, hormones being released. Yeah. And they create long-term memory pathways. Yes. And it takes time to break them down. And it's coach and behaviorist, because it applies to both, yeah. Like, you know, we'll give you a good systematic desensitization plan for you and behavioral modification. Yeah. So that you can break that trauma loop. Yeah. And if anybody fucking says kick on and carry on to you, you know, you know, just run. Kick on and carry on away from them. Kick on and carry on away from them. Because it's just flooding. But it applies to the it's the same for animals as well. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

And yeah, it is. Across the board. It is. It is very much. And I think it's yeah, what I find difficult in this day and age is that confidence confidence has been leveraged so much. Um, and mindset and confidence and this that's exactly what you've just got. 100%, 100% nice.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Me, me saying trauma loops, hysterical sensitization, behavioral modification aren't really good keywords. Not sexy, they're not really sexy. But if I turn around, I'm in a like freaking lovely bee, like long sarong walking through like a field of meadows, going, my mindset was forever changed. It's like, no, I'm mind that. It's no, it's just marketing, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

You know, they're not sexy words. It's that it's that honesty though, and I think a lot of coaches are scared to be honest because it is um it's exactly what you've just said. You go and you go and say that to someone, and they're like, What? Oh my god. Um, and and the thing is, it does take time, and I think with me, I'm always up front. I'm like, coaching's a process, like I cannot fix you in six days, six weeks, six months. But I will enter you into this process and use the word systems, and that's don't say enter you. Okay, that came out wrong. Oh god, this is getting worse. I'm in a hole, I'm in a hole. Systems, create systems is what is what I've done because like I say, I've experienced it, I've experienced that trauma. Yeah, um, so I needed to create a system whereby I could survive and get out of it and go enjoy my jumping and and my horses and things like that. Um, and it does take time and it is just that systematic. And for me, again, some of my coaching principles is if I teach you how this works, so I simplify what you've just said because I like I don't like big words, science is difficult, and I'm like, cool. So, how do we simplify this? Basically, your brain is going, Holy crap, that almost killed you last time. Let's not do that. Yeah, and then the more you keep trying to do that, your brain is like, yo, dude, really, stop fucking doing that, and then it you know escalates all of the things. So you have to understand that. And what I say to people is like, you're gonna feel this, you're gonna feel all of the things, um, and you have to recognize that and just go, okay, I'm gonna feel it and continue to do it anyway, but in a very small and very controlled manner. Like you say, all you're gonna do is walk from E to B. And then once you've got to B, you're then gonna re-evaluate, and if you feel up to it, you can then walk from B to C and then and then go on there, and then your brain will eventually basically take a breath and go, Okay, parasympathetic nervous system comes in and goes, Okay, all right, lads, the lion isn't behind the bush, we might not be dying here. Okay, what's our next move? And as soon as you start to do that, you then create a system, um, and you're you're stackable events.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

And you're staying exactly because everyone has had something scary happen to them. I was 15, like I had like a rotation, like you know, yeah, and I didn't touch another horse again until I was like 25, 26, yeah, you know, and like so. I always say, like, I really learnt to ride when I was an adult because your pony all the pony stuff you do in your kids, I don't really count any of that because you know, and I say, but that terrified me. I I used to I was absolutely terrified, couldn't go anywhere now, you know, and it took me ages to get back. And I was like, and part of the the things that really helped me get back was A, at that point I'd done you know, a lot of behaviour work and stuff, and I was like, Oh, I actually understand quite a lot about more bihorses than all of these other people around me. That's quite interesting, and that gave me a bit of confidence, but understanding the biomechanics really helped me and like focus in on what I'm doing because they're your stackable events. So every time I was sitting there and like I learned, I I concentrated very hard on learning without looking at my horse, and you know, that I could know every single limb that was moving underneath me by just the feel, yeah. And I and that's my go-to, right? So that's my if I have a day where you know I've had a long day and I'm feeling a bit run down, or you know, I just say like everybody has days and I get on my horse and it's a bit windy, and there's a couple of triggers or antecedents around that make me go, Oh, the ground's a bit wet. What if we slip and have a rotation? I'm like, okay, well, that was do you know what I mean? You're back there at that moment. Yep, you know, I I go back and go, okay, perfect. Where do I need to start from? There's, you know, I'd say, like, left, right, left, right, left, right, and so I breathe. Exactly. And then sit there and go, okay, how can I go back? And and then like I sit there and I'm like, and I'm and then I go, look at yourself now. You're sitting up nice and straight, you're really balanced in the seat, you've got a really nice core, and then usually the best thing that happens in that situation is we get a spook. And I say that because we spook and we go sideways. I'm riding on the buckle, I'm nice and balanced in the seat, I move with her, nothing terrible happens, and then I go, look, see, brain, nothing. Fabulous, let's crack on. Yeah, exactly that. But it's it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, it's it's and it is said than done. It is, but it's it's that action, and I think that's the hardest bit, isn't it? Because it comes down to discipline and it's not sexy, like you say, you know, and I am who and what I am, and I don't pull punches when it comes to this because it just winds me up when a number of people are like, Oh, I'm just looking to build confidence. I'm like, no, you're looking to build your partnership, you're looking to build trust in your partnership. You don't need confidence because you're already riding, you're already doing the thing, you need to give it time to build the partnership. You know, why'd you feel nervous? Because you've had this horse a week and you don't know what it's gonna do at the mounting block, it could do one of a million and one things and you don't know which one's gonna pick. But once you've had that horse for 10 years, you no longer think about these things because over the 10 years that horse's done all of the million and one things, so you know when it's windy and rainy, the horse is gonna perform this behaviour because you just know it's like any partnership, you know. You ask any couple that have been married for a long, long time, they're like, Oh yeah, on Wednesdays he does this. At 10 o'clock every day, he does this. Why? How do you know that? Because I've seen it for that long that when you first start going out with someone, you're like, I have no idea what you do at 10 o'clock on the morning, like, I have no idea. And and it's this it's the same feelings of like, am I gonna like it? Am I not gonna like it? I don't know, I don't know. And you wouldn't in that moment, so I'm not confident, you'd be like, Oh, I just I just don't know yet. And it's that and it's that sort of trying to get I try and get across to people and where I come with my partnership-centred coaching of like it it building that partnership is everything. Like, that's why I love teaching like you and Ruben Gen, because it's funny because you've got this partnership and you can see it, and it's just my job to help you redirect it. So you you take out a lot of my work because I'm like, you know what he's doing, like you know, you know this, and then you can actually feedback to me and be like, Oh yeah, he's gonna do this because this is how he does this. And I'm like, Cool, right, let's work with that. Um, whereas when I'm working with a partnership that doesn't have that or a new partnership, which I get a lot of people have just bought new horses or whatever, it's my job to read that horse a bit quicker and figure it out because I've got more experience and I've met more horses, etc. etc. To know, yeah, this horse is probably gonna be chill, or this one might be a bit edgy, or it'd be like you guys, you you probably read a horse quite quickly and go, Yep, I see what this is gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

It's just a point. Well, this is to the point where like going to a consultation within 10 minutes I know exactly what's wrong, and I'm like Exactly. And now I'm like, right, now what do we do for two hours?

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Um exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, you always I actually had a client point I actually had a client point it out to me the other day. She was like, You did that in ten minutes, and I was like, It's my job.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

But that's but that's but that's a psychology point as well. People get disappointed, and I turn around to them and say, You've just paid me this money because you've got a problem and I've solved your problem really quickly. Why are you not happy about that? You know, I don't understand that.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

You know, it's my job if I'm not people expect it to be difficult and challenging and long. Yeah, and it's like the beauty about a lot of because a lot of things are sold that are incorrect to people, yeah, that don't work, that take a long time, and you're told that these things are difficult and hard and take a long time. Yeah, whereas in reality, if you have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Give me all of your money for the next eight weeks.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, it's like in reality, it's like if you're given the correct treatment, yeah, you know, whatever it happens to be the right support, it should be easy, it shouldn't be arduous. It's like like if you went to a doctor and the doctor went, Okay, like you have a chest infection, like you know, it's I say a bacteria like infection, we're gonna get these antibiotics, you're gonna have to be on them for eight weeks, you're gonna feel rotten for ages, like you know, and all the rest of it. It's just like we would feel like it would be awful, like it would be absolutely awful. So you went to a doctor and went, actually, you've got a viral infection, you've got asthma, take this inhaler and you'll feel better tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

I was gonna say, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to weigh in soon and balance this out soon because you know we're going too far. We're going way too far one way. I'm just sat here going. You've been very quiet. I've been very quiet, I've been listening.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

She's been information gathering very much.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

She hasn't. She's sitting here going, Oh, this is great, they're carrying me. Can you talk for a bit?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

I think this is just a key. There's two things that have come to mind when you've been talking about confidence and when a bad event happens. And I think it's worth mentioning, because not everyone knows this, is that when your brain remembers something, it remembers the last version that you remembered. So the first time it happens to you, it's version one. Then the first time you remember, it's version two, and then you remember version two, which becomes version three. So every single time you have a memory, you never remember the original. You never think, oh yeah, we're very bad at reflecting it. Yeah, that's true. And as far as we know, it's the same for horses. We don't know. We there's no way of us knowing, but it's probably best to assume.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, that fascinates me.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Well, we also know that we can change our own memory. So every time you reflect on it and unpack it, when you st as Jessica said, when you store it back again to the hind brain, we've actually edited it. We are incredibly bad at keeping true memories.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Which makes it makes it super important. And Barbara and I we did an we did an episode on this about labeling memories and the language we use. Yeah, we did we did a whole episode on language, Barbara, and how important it is, and how the language we use shapes our memory and shapes us going forwards. It was really useful, remember?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Um but how you recall a memory and unpack that memory and reflect on it.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

Clearly, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

I did and then blanked it out.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah. But if you remember something and you identify, I really struggled with this, and I'm really proud that I did this, it you're taking something that's terrifying and turning it into something positive. So then you actually warp it in a positive way. But what tends to happen is people warp it subconsciously in a negative way, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and but that's because we're naturally wired negative, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Like it's uh it's a survival instinct. Our brain, yeah, naturally, and this is what I tell everybody as well. Like, it's the old, like they used to do the you know, writing on a blackboard thing, and they'd write, they'd purposely put like two plus two equals six or something like that. People are like, oh, you've got that one wrong, and it's like I've got one out of ten wrong, and all you've picked out is the wrong one. So we are hardwired, it's negativity bias, right? So we are hardwired to remember the negative because that's what kept us alive and evolution, absolutely, right? Absolutely so and in this world where we don't have anything out there to to kill us on a whim, apart from horses, but we ride every day because it's fun, lol, the irony is not lost. Um, this is why the the brain fascinates me with riders. Yeah, this is why the brain fascinates me is riders. And I always tell people, and I'll be heard saying this several times, like you're scared because you're a human. If you weren't scared, I would be worried, you know. I would be worried if you weren't having doubts because you're human. It literally shows that you're a human. And I think coming back to our original point of the industry is so good at going, come on, kick on, crack on, get on, because we we we didn't want to understand or want to acknowledge. Um and then we sort of ended up in this um in this sort of cycle where where we're at with it, really. And I see like my job as a coach is to try and number one, educate people on all of the stuff that we've just said. This is how your brain works. If you know how something works, you can fix it. Um if you know the how and the why, you can do something about it. Absolutely. Um and and I see it is my job to simplify. Like, I sit and read all these scientific articles and books and study sports psychology and all this, so you don't have to. So you can come to me and be like, like in the group, like you'll see this all the time in my in my WhatsApp group. Kate, what does this mean? I'm like, oh, it's just this, don't worry about it. And they're like, how'd you make it so simple? It's like because I've spent hours trying to understand this and boiled it down to this. And I think it's something to look at as well if you're choosing a practitioner, and probably you guys will be the same as well. Like, anyone who tries to overcomplicate things or anyone who can't really simplify something probably doesn't really understand it. Like you guys, every time I talk to you about behavior, you are so good at going, you know, like I look at you like a rabbit in the headlights, I'm like, what on earth does those big words mean? And it's like patting good, kicking bad. I'm like, got ya, I understand that now. Um it was like this podcasting thing, you're like microphone in, turn it on, talkie talkie. Got excited about the case.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Perfect, yeah, but I've talked I've talked about this before in previous ones about like your five whys. Like it's very easy to find figure out very quickly if someone's talking, you know, nonsense by just asking why, you know, kick on and carry on. Why? Why it'll get you confident, why? Yeah, like and then it starts to fall apart very quickly. It's just like because you'll either get like, you know, you need to learn and you need to toughen up, and you're like, but but why, why do I need to toughen up for a sport that's supposed to be fun? Why, what do you know what I mean? And enjoyable for me. I'm not riding this horse into war. Yeah, and I know you've talked a few times about like you know, this is potentially an animal that you know can kill us. I, you know, I would say, and like Jen can jump in here as well. You know, we can make it really safe if we you put in place good safeguards for behavior and equitation welfare. We can make this so much safer than it needs to be. You don't need to be scared, like, and also there there should be no guilt and shame about being scared because it is a scary that's the other thing as well. And also, like, it's like so like if if we had like a pot. If there's fear there, always respect. It's a good thing. It's a good thing, it keeps you alive, it literally keeps you alive. Like, why would you want to turn that off? If I was if I was piloting the plane and it was night time and I was directing it into the mountains, and I went, do you know, and I was like, Oh, you know, I'm a little bit worried here, you know, like the the visibility's low. Do you know what I really need to do is turn off all my safety equipment that's gonna keep me safe? Yeah, you're your you know, like that way I can toughen up and like you know, I might hit the mountains, but it'll it'll toughen me up. No, you want your early warning system on, you want to have your body being able to tell you, do you know what? It's a bit windy and rainy today. The ground condition isn't that great. Take care. Maybe I will just walk, maybe I will just get off my horse and walk it in because that's the safer thing to do right now. I don't need to toughen up in this situation, yeah. Like, you know, today wasn't the day. Like, do not turn off the same.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

You're a failure for getting off your horse if it plays up. And I'm just like, oh my god. We I feel like I don't want to touch on this because we could we could go down, I feel like that would be like a 12-episode rant.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

But I feel like that, yeah, I feel like that rounds rounds back to something you guys were talking about earlier about you know the science and the theory. It's simple and it works and it should work effectively and quickly. And you know, Barbara, you made the analogy about going to the doctors and get something that's gonna last eight weeks, and you you know, you'd be gutted if it didn't. And I think that was one of the bits I just wanted to like come back and balance out a little bit, like yes, it should in an ideal world, but then we have the nuance of the nervous system and the memory. And I in it sometimes a simple task really can take quite a long time if that fear response, the nervous system isn't ready to decompress and take that new information in. And I never want I literally had like that today. It's the case of okay, so it can be simple on paper, but that it sometimes then pulls the shutters down on the wider experience that's happening within the mind, and it's like it okay, it can be simple. Yeah, yeah, and for the individual, the process can take a while, and that should do because if you cut the corner, you don't do the groundwork. And I mean groundwork on the city.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

A hundred percent and like, yeah. So I would say, like that sorry, Casey, just to say this, I would say it's like if you think of it like a bell car, bell curve, yeah, um, like what you're talking about, Jen, as you say, like and what we're talking about is if we're hitting the right center of the bell curve, we have no, you know, no underlying healthcare conditions, how long have you been dealing with the problem, you know, and the fear? Like, as you say, how many times you've been unpacking that memory? Was it years ago? Like, as I say, I still get that anxiety, and it was 15. Yeah, I was 15 when that happened, and that anxiety will still come up, like genetic predisposition and all the rest of it. You know, all of those things are factors which can mean that you can also have people where it can go both directions, right? You can have people on the other side of the bell curve that it happens even faster, and they never need to get any help because they actually like or you know, like I say that doctor example, they never need to go to the doctor because their system clears themselves. You've got the other spectrum at the very end where someone is immunocompromised, and yeah, it does take a little bit longer, you know, to cure that infection. Yeah, so I say to your point, Jen, like you've got people on either side of the spectrum. Yeah, I suppose, like all I was saying more was just like right center, bang in the middle with nothing else going on. Yeah, you know, that's where you know I meant. So, yes, 100%, Jen. Like, you can have people on either side where things can take a little bit of time, it does take longer to be out of the brain.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

There are other factors that we need to consider, but that's our job as a coach, like that's how I that's what I see my job as as a coach is to come in and be like, okay, where are you at on this spectrum? Where where are you at? Just just where are you at? Because I get, I don't know if you guys, you probably will get um you know inquiries and stuff like that, and it's like, oh, what do I do about this? And I'm like, it depends. They're normally my first two words, it depends. And I always say this to people as well if you're looking for a coach and you ask them for an answer and they verbatim give you one, run because I can guarantee you they're not taking in everything that you've just said, they're not taking in the nuances because there'll be something that is happening to cause that, and that's where the whole it depends come from. And most of the professionals and practitioners that I work with and that I refer to, the first thing will be like it depends, um, and also this comes into the whole staying in your lane thing, which bugs me, you know, because like I know behavior and I understand training to a point, and I've done this before where I've gone like you no longer need me, this is a this is a gen problem. You need to go and see Jen about this. Or I have genuinely gone, this horse isn't right, I can't come and teach you again. I you need to go and speak to a vet because something isn't right. This isn't right, I don't know what, but I'm telling you now, but it's not it's not right because of X, Y, and Z, it's not right. And I you know, I've told them I've said this is what I would say to the vet go go forth and and and do it. I was like, but I can't help you until you've done it. Yeah, go forth and prosper with the vet. Because but the thing is, I I have seen it so many times. I had a client message me in an absolute state. She just had her saddle fitted, and she was like, Oh my god, the saddle fitter said that my horse has got hawk arthritis, there's something wrong with its stifle, and basically I need to shoot it. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I was like, she got all that from like a 10-minute, 10-minute saddle fit appointment, and she was like, Yeah, it's to the summit. And I was just like, I just went right. I says this, it really triggered me because this was the second.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

So as well, like you can't diagnose. We're me, my doctor are not allowed to diagnose things. Like all you know what I mean? Like, and usually I can, like, when when like clients go like there's a gate abnormality there, you know we're not tracking up there's you know media lot something going on there could go for exactly I'm gonna refer you back to the vet you know and I say like for us like as if we do vet referrals back as well like something there's a clinical aspect to it you know and a hundred percent because and I always say to people it's like it's in the best interest and welfare of the horse and it would be unethical for me to continue to train or do anything until we get this investigated. You know we're putting the the ethics of the animal first but like ultimately even though they usually say but what do you think it is and I go okay well differential diagnosis yeah these are the heavy hitters yeah like and yeah I'm usually right yeah me too but at the same time yeah because again we know what we're doing and we know you know we've seen it and that's exactly how but that's exactly how vets work as well they are a vocational study they see these cases they study them and they you know they f they diagnose them but at the same time it is not it is not my job to do that it is my job to refer them to an like per like a vet or say a physio or somebody else to me yeah 100% but I think from my perspective the damage that that did to that rider from a from a training perspective it put her back from my you know I was starting to get her where she needed to be in terms of their training it was a new new partnership she hadn't had the horse long um we were going and we were getting somewhere and then she had the saddle fitter out and and she came back to me with this and I was like oh my god I was like professionals don't understand how much damage they do whether it was a flippant comment or you know I'm sure this saddle fitter said it in their best interest but delivery is I was just like you don't understand the damage that you've done to that person at that moment in time you know and I understand it like I had a terrible month where I had about three or four horses where I was teaching and I was like you need to go to the vet because and I I lost out on a lot of money which was my livelihood took a hit my livelihood took a hit um but the horses were far better off for it and they've come back to me and I always question like how many other coaches would have done that.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

Yeah and that round that brings us back to one of our early points really nicely when we were talking about referring on and that team well yeah it's that it's the fact it's ego but it's also just like we can actually serve we can we can improve equine welfare in sport in leisure it's our job it's our duty by working more collaboratively and doing referrals instead of you know not or trying to fix everything and then stepping out and doing things which are actually illegal diagnosing and not as an it's actually illegal. Um Barbara what what what would be your biggest takeaway?

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Yeah we're kind of hitting the hours so we're kind of like rant off um a little bit I know how did that happen again um um the yeah like I think I'll say ultimately like we're saying like because there's so much human psychology involved in everything that we do and sort of like supporting people as well as what we're trying to achieve with their animals. Like whether it's a performance goal you know if you want to like ride in a competition or you want to ride your horse or you know you want to do stuff on the ground with them whatever it is that there's a coaching element to it and support um like and there are lots of different ways to be able to go about it but ultimately the most successful you're going to be with your horse is if you get somebody who puts you and your goals at center. Whether that's as a behaviorist or like a farrier or a physio or a coach to say any professional any professional because ultimately like it's your horse it's what you want and it's your goals. Yeah like and they should be asking you what do you want to achieve and am I the right person to be able to help you do that. If not I'll refer you on you know if I if I am great I need to listen to you. There is no point and we've seen this before as well like with when it comes to behaviorists or the people as well who turn around and go this is what you should be doing with your horse. That's not what I want to be doing with my horse. I want to be able to do this. Do you know what I mean? Like and then you know it's it's it's very much about like you know listening to the the individual client and supporting them and it's and it translates across professions. What about you Jen?

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah I think what you're tackling Katie's inform empower achieve engage empower enable close enough to engage it was close enough to what you thought not just taking Katie's thing no no no no no I like it I like it because I I like the thoughts of it because I think if you're looking for a professional you want those qualities they can engage with other people and you're informed and they're gonna give you information. Yeah so I think one of the biggest takeaways is if you're looking for professionals to coach and educate you and your horse in any way just ask get more information talk to them ask and ask how they work but I think one of the biggest green flags is working with somebody who is open and maybe already collaborates. So what other professionals do you actively work with so that one of the nicest things you can do for yourself with your horse is to actually have a team around you a vet who will talk to a trainer talk to a physio talks to the dentist and your behaviors and they actively have professional connections but are also open to working with new in um professionals. So it's not that it's a closed knit group is that you've you're working with professionals who are that professional and not egotistical that they are like that's fine I can work happily with others in my team and that's okay. And I'd say that is probably the biggest thing owners could do to empower better welfare for horses yeah 100% yeah yeah I agree I agree what's Katie's takeaway Katie can just use her own tagline and you try to steal it's not like I'm trying to you know you know kind of like what what is it?

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Oh my god my words have just vanished yeah um supporting the business shout out I mean yeah I mean like I say for me I'm just I'm just I love doing what I do um and and I just I want to do more of it and I just I want to connect with more like minded people like for me community is the heart of what I do say and it's at the heart of my informed equestrians with my with the virtual yard um and like I love nothing more than getting the opportunity to collaborate with professionals like yourselves and physios, farrios like all my farrios and physios hate me because I'm like ooh what's that do and they're like oh god it's never it's never just a quick appointment with you Hancocks is it and I'm just like yeah but why? And I just yeah like I I just want to continue this this work um and and keep spreading the message and and try and make science a little bit more accessible I would say sexy but science kind of isn't really sexy like we think it's sexy because we like science but oh don't we had a whole discussion about that cool I would say don't be to science is sexy because it's biology right so it's literally sexual biology which is science. Yeah I I I'm completely on your wavelength but I understand that many people are like ugh science get it off so again for me I I enjoy taking analogies and taking science and doing exactly what I say you know bringing the geeky stuff to the forefront so people can actually practice it and implement it which just makes every the the place a better place for horses and if we want to continue doing what we're doing we need to do more of it and be more of it. Yeah so just please do your best to do it better.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

Like please 100% awesome I feel like we've covered a big range of topics.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

I have one more question for Katie did you have fun Katie I had a great time genuinely no I I love talking to you guys and thank you so much for for asking me and having me on um and our first guest yeah it's been great you know and hopefully people can say it is nice we are we are fun to be around I'm holding a gun to Katie's head to say you're staying at four Katie so much fun you guys so much fun trauma response and coming to start she starts tapping a pen in horse code yeah she was actually clapping that's what the clap is that was the clap was um you get to do another clap now Katie if you want to do it amazing yes can I do a clap I think you should say goodbye and say thank you so much you know you do the bye bye and then the clap since you've given us so much of your time and thank you for coming on it has been absolutely fascinating it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Yeah it's been brilliant yeah no thank you so much for having me and um yeah I hope I get to speak with and um yeah see you guys again soon and and learn some more so yeah thanks very much for uh yeah fun fun few hours of conversation thank you kids amazing thanks so much bye guys bye bye clap clap