Reclaim Your Creative Power with Pia Mailhot-Leichter

What if creativity isn’t just about what you make—but how you move through life?

In this soulful and energizing conversation, Pia Mailhot-Leichter shares her journey from agency creative director to purpose-driven coach and author. We talk about how to trust yourself in uncertain seasons, why your past experiences are never wasted, and how embracing creativity as a way of being can lead to more joy, courage, and freedom.

Whether you're pivoting in your career, starting something new, or simply craving a deeper connection to your creativity, this episode will remind you: you're not starting over—you're starting from experience.

In this episode, we explore:

• What it means to reclaim your creative identity in midlife
• The difference between creativity as a profession and creativity as a way of being
• How to move with trust—even when the outcome is unclear
• The role of community, collaboration, and experimentation in staying brave
• The neuroscience of creativity (and why new experiences matter)
• How to quiet your inner critic and let yourself play again
• The power of “first times” and why uncertainty is where possibility lives

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https://kollektiv.studio/ 

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Transcript

Reclaim Your Creative Power with Pia Mailhot-Leichter

[00:00:00] 

What if creativity wasn't just something you do, but a way of being. This week, I'm so excited to introduce you to Pia Mailhot-Leichter, writer, coach, creative director, and all round, brilliant woman who's on a mission to help others reclaim their creative power. From growing up with an artist father in Manhattan to building a [00:01:00] successful career in advertising, then taking the brave Leap into entrepreneurship.

Pia’s story is a rich tapestry of unlearning, rediscovery, and trust. In our conversation, she shares what it means to lean into possibility, how to sit with the unknown, even when it's wildly uncomfortable, and why joy, community and experimentation are non-negotiables. Whether you're in a season of change or just need a nudge to remember that you are creative, this episode is a beautiful invitation to step out of the box and back into yourself.

Wanna be the first to know when my free stop selling start serving workshop is back, or get a little weekly encouragement, inspiration, and fun in your inbox? Become an insider at pennyforyourshots.com/insider. I'd love to keep in touch. Grab your favorite drink. Whether it's Prosecco or kombucha, and click play here is Pia Mailhot-Leichter.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: [00:02:00] Hi. Hi. Good morning. How are you? Good afternoon or morning to you? I'm good. How are you? 

Penny Fitzgerald: I'm great. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Where are you located? I'm in Copenhagen. You are wonderful. Yeah. And where are you? I'm in Iowa. Oh, wow. Cool. So it is morning. Yeah. Okay, so you're, it is morning here, starting your day. yes. It's so great to meet you.

It's so 

Penny Fitzgerald: wonderful to meet you. Pia, I am so grateful that you found me. How, how did you find me? 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: actually I have a VA who's been doing a lot of research Yeah. Trying to help pair me with right fit podcasts in terms of energy and, um, also, yeah, I, I loved your concept, even though actually I, I don't drink or I stopped drinking, which we can get into that, not that there's anything wrong, but anyone can do whatever they want.

But, um, that's. Yeah, and it's just, just trying to find energetically aligned places to have deeper conversations. Love it. And so also it happens with doing the research, but then like the follow [00:03:00] up, how does it feel and what everything that led us here today. So it's been, oh, awesome. It's been a pleasure.

And I love, I love the authentic conversations that you have with people and what you bring out in the safe space. Basis that you're able to create. 'cause they're also fun. So it's great to be here. Yes. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. That's what it's all about, creating fun. Absolute. And yeah, those real genuine connections and collaborations.

I love it. I'm grateful. Exactly. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And I love that. Me too. And I love the spirit of, I think that is also like, let's have a drink and let's just talk and yeah, let's let down the guard and make it feel comfortable and not necessarily perform, but just show up. Um, yeah, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm digging it. It feels good.

Awesome. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Well, I have only begun reading your book Pia so I am. I'm really excited to dig in. I'm going on vacation next week and have a lot of time to read, so I'm really excited. Great. About that. Where you going? We are going to Wyoming for a family reunion. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: [00:04:00] Wonderful. Why? I've never been to Wyoming. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I haven't either.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Well, you're gonna be going soon. I wonder what? Well, I look forward to hearing what that's like. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. It's, we're driving too, so I'll be in the car a lot and have lots of time to. Dig in. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Sounds good. Well, I look forward to hearing what you think. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yes, yes. Well, it's also, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: I wrote it to also read like chapter by chapter, so Uhhuh with the hope that maybe someone just, you know, goes to a park, does something, and they just opened the book and they're able to find whatever they need in whatever chapter.

Oh, nice. Have opened. That's, mm-hmm. That was the goal. Anyway. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Love 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: it. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Well, the, you begin to talk about creativity and how we were born creative. I so agree with that. I feel like we get squashed down by life, or we allow it to, to totally dictate what happens one foot in front of the other. Just making it day to day and doing what we have to do, our responsibilities, following those, and then we, we forget.

We [00:05:00] forget how amazing we are and what brought us joy before, you know. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Absolutely. And I think that's part, part of getting older and is rediscovering our creativity and also unlearning what we've learned. Yes. Like and And relearning again. And also rediscovering. So it's kind of coming back full circle to the things that, as you said, brought us joy and how we used to play and yeah, a little bit, you know, awe and wonder and less duty and obligation.

Even though we have responsibilities as adults, we're also. Able to respond to life in any way we want. And that's really where our creative power lives. It's easy to forget, though, in the midst of laundry and, uh, being at the DMV and all the things, but amidst that, I think we can remember that we're also designing our experience.

We get to choose. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right, right. Well, tell, tell my audience a little bit about your [00:06:00] background. 'cause, you know, reading your book, it's clear that you've, um. Discovered joy and rediscovered your creativity. But can you, can you tell my audience, my listeners, a little bit about that journey and how you got started or rediscovering that piece of you?

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Sure. Well, um, I grew up with, uh, an artist. Uh, my father's an artist. He's an abstract painter, and so I always grew up in, in a world of color and light and creativity. It was never something that was looked on, looked, frowned on down upon, or like get a real job. It was never, it was never. Part of what I was told, because that was, that was the real passion.

That that was, you know, a part of how, what we, what my father did and what he showed me, he also showed me that could be a very tough life living in. Mm-hmm. You know, being an artist in New York City, uh, on the Lower East Side Manhattan. And, you know, I grew up in the, in the eighties and nineties as a little girl and, you know, seeing the ups and downs and the rollercoaster of that [00:07:00] actually.

Um. Made me, my father's my hero, but he also was a warning sign. Mm-hmm. So it was like, oh, this is the price that you pay when you color outside of society's prescriptive lines. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Uh, and so I ventured into the world of commercial creativity because it felt like this was a space working in advertising and marketing as a creative director and copywriter and creative strategist.

Like, okay, this is what I can do that allows me to be creative and also have security. So. You know, and it, and it was good for a while. It was beautiful. It was a, it was a place where I felt that's what they do, that I belonged. You know, that's, that's what they do. Uh, so you, you, you give it everything you have and it felt like being a part of something bigger and the work felt really meaty and important, um, until I realized that there was a dream that was itching and poking me at night.

Questions about [00:08:00] what I might create if I channeled. My creative energy into building my own dream instead of someone else's. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And, um, when my, when my mother passed suddenly in 2021, one of her parting gifts was a shot of courage. Like, what am I waiting for? I have this one life. It's, if it's not now, then when, right.

And shortly thereafter, I quit my job and I started to build my own business and then serendipitously a bunch of different. Things started to happen as I leaned into trusting life, trusting my own creativity, and rediscovering what creativity really meant to me, which mm-hmm. Included a door opening for the potential to the opportunity to write a book.

So, um, you know, which was a second epiphany, like, oh, creativity isn't only about building commercial ventures or businesses, it's also about just making art. To make an impact in the world. And you know, those are, those are beautiful, the [00:09:00] beautiful unfolding. But I in many ways connected creativity to something that we do, right?

Like it's, this is, yeah, we do this and what I've, and act you're right. And what I've discovered is that creativity is really a way of being in the world. It's not just something you do and it's beautiful. Yeah. It's how you, it's, it's how you see your life, how you approach your life, how you solve everyday challenges in new novel and unexpected ways.

It's, it's your ability to create and craft your own experience. I. By being conscious of the stories you tell yourself. Just like the story I was telling myself as a kid that, Ooh, just focusing on creativity as, as art is dangerous, right? Mm-hmm. Which, yeah, as a child, I see, I might have got that, that impression, but as an adult I can say, yeah, it might feel scary, but it doesn't have to be.

It can. It can be something that I also give myself and allow myself to do [00:10:00] and to be. And to me that that's also a, a very creative act, is making those, those conscious choices about which scripts that we want to discard and which ones we might wanna rewrite and which ones we might wanna keep, and how they influence our experience of our reality.

Really. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. It, it's so easy to, to take that on and it becomes our identity. Don't you feel like you could Oh yeah, totally. Like squash it and be like, well, I am this person instead of. I choose to follow this path. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Absolutely. And I think that's one of the hardest things when it comes to our own creative evolution.

And I believe if you're a human, you're an artist at play. Um, we all go through creative evolutions where something that might have worked before that we might very successful at doing no longer works or not, that no longer works, it no longer fulfills us in the same way. It no 

Penny Fitzgerald: longer 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: serves 

Penny Fitzgerald: us, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: no longer serves.

It is time for something else. Yeah. But that's [00:11:00] something else is very scary 'cause we don't know what it is. Right, right. And so it's kind of, we have to have these extinction moments almost where mm-hmm. We allow. What we used to do or used to serve. We let it go, we bury it, we honor it, we have a ceremony, we ritualize it, and then we, we, we move on into what is, what is next.

And we also have to go into a sort of void period where it's like before wow. Between what was and what is coming. You know, allowing that process to happen. And it takes a lot of courage because it feels very wildly uncomfortable because it's unknown and it's uncertain, but that's really the birthplace of creativity.

No one goes to create something knowing exactly what it is they're going to create. It's right. You have to, right. We have to surrender to the creative process, which is like, oh, this is fun. I don't know what it will be. Let's find out. You know? Right. Let's, let's do this, let's, let's get curious again, like, well, like we used to be when we were kids.

We just get curious and we play and we [00:12:00] experiment and we explore and that itself becomes. Becomes the pleasure, becomes the joy. Joy, not just needing to know what the result will be or what it needs to do for us. Um, it will come, that will just be a byproduct of the, the joy we're having and the, the, what I call the wobbles.

It's a package deal. Right. It's not, it's not just good with the bad. Your pleasure. Yeah. You know, the highs and the lows, like mm-hmm. Some days it's like. Oh, what am what is it gonna be? What, what's gonna happen? What am I doing next? What is it gonna look like? And other days it's like, oh, fantastic. I have no idea.

It could be anything. What? It's the possibilities feel endless. Yeah. Um, and, and being able to ride that wave and to get support in, in community as we build and, and grow and explore and evolve because mm-hmm. Human beings, not only are we naturally creative, we are fluid, changeable beings. Our bodies constantly change.

We are. Part of nature. We sit, sit, the moon has [00:13:00] cycles, nature has seasons. Yeah. We all, we, we go through our own changes. So releasing into that and understanding that's part of our own creative process, that life itself is a creative process, is what allows us, I believe, to reconnect to our creative power.

Getting back into the driver's seat, if you know what I mean. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. That's so cool. It's very, it's beautiful and. Terrifying. Yeah, exactly. You know? 'cause how do you, 'cause you lived it as a kid, live living with your father, the artist. Was it a financial worry that was, that you grew up with? 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Definitely. Yeah.

Penny Fitzgerald: So how you're gonna live day to day, how you're gonna pay those bills. So as an adult, how do you allow yourself to trust that it's gonna be okay? How do you 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: get there? 

Penny Fitzgerald: I 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: love that question, Penny. I personally believe it's a practice, like [00:14:00] it's not a, it's not a destination. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Uh, for me, I am practicing moving with trust.

I. Every day because I know what it's like to move with fear first, unconsciously. Right. That fear. Mm-hmm. That we kind of inherit that. Just what you described, like how are we gonna pay the bills. My dad, you know, was a blackjack dealer for the Mafia. He drove the horse and buggy in, in, in Central Park. You know, he was a merchant Marine.

He did anything and everything that could support his art. Wow. And, you know, yeah. So that, that, that can feel shaky, that there are stories in that. Right. You know, of course. To sort of scarcity, what if I can't? And some of it's very real, so I'm, you know, honoring that experience. But as an adult now, uh, I wanna move with a different story.

I wanna move. And I think being an, being an entrepreneur very much is a, a play field, a playing field, or a gym. That strengthens my muscle to be in uncertainty because it's [00:15:00] inherently, life is inherently uncertain, but sometimes when we're in a salaried position, it can feel more certain. But that too, of course, anything can happen.

Right, exactly. Also uncertain, but it feels more secure. But when we're, when we're. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a false I heard, I heard exactly. I heard on a podcast. It was, I, I just loved it. It really stayed with me that there's nothing more addictive than two things for human beings. I think it was, one was heroin and the second one was a salary.

Oh. Like what we, what we, what we do, what we give up, and what we do for that security, what we trade in. Right. Uh, you know, is, is this sort of addiction to wanting to feel secure? Uh, and I get that because I'm human and I feel it too. But I find that the more that I surrender into trust, like for the first year, two years of building my business, I felt, um, more anxiety about like, 

Penny Fitzgerald: oh, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: what's, what is it coming?

Not all the time, but I [00:16:00] remember feeling like, like, I don't. I don't know, like when is this next client coming? What is it? What is this going to be? I don't know what my business, you know, 'cause your business keeps developing. I don't know what it's gonna look like, right? Is it this, is it that? And then it was really interesting 'cause after about two years of this, I worried a lot less, my muscle felt stronger.

I was like, no, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna fed you. I show up. But it will figure itself out. Yeah, it will come. It always does. It's, let me lean back a little bit. And so I think to me that's a practice of trust. That's, that's like, okay, I'm not sure, but I trust that if I show up right, yeah. I'm taking care, it's gonna be taken care of.

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And and so far it has been. It is 

Penny Fitzgerald: fantastic. Yeah. It's a trust fall, right. You're learning, you know, the fear. We let our fears keep us small and. Every time you step outta that comfort zone, it's, it's a [00:17:00] practice. It's, it's that training that you're trying, training your brain to that, oh, I'm okay. I didn't die.

Totally. That's awesome. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And I think that's where our freedom lies. Yeah. 'cause the, the more that we practice and the more that we create evidence for our rational mind, then no. Of course we didn't die. Yeah. It felt it was a little hard. Right. But we're okay. We're gonna make it uncomfortable. It Yeah. Very.

But we, we got it. Yeah. This. The, the less, um, the less it kicks up, the less it, it creates these stories, the, you know, the fear kind of quiets, it's there, but it quiets and it allows us to go further and to do even bigger things, more expansive things. Yeah. And I think that is, to me, that feels very meaningful.

I, I wanna live a life of freedom and, um, that means doing things that scare me a bit. That means doing, you know, trust, trusting, feeling alive. Feeling alive. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. And feeling alive is that [00:18:00] combination of beauty and terror. Right. Right. Like it, it's both of those things. Little bit. Yeah. Right.

I mean, I think it's a part of what this human experience is. We don't know where we're going When this curtain falls, that can feel very terrifying. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: But it can also feel, um, exciting and liberating. 'cause that means we have one life. What are we gonna do with it? Right. Who are we gonna 

Penny Fitzgerald: serve? Right.

What's gonna, what can we, what good can we do? Yeah, totally. It's very, it's exciting and terrifying, but yeah. I've heard so many times that, um, being an entrepreneur is a little like building the train while it's running down the track. Mm, totally. It's so true. You're like, oh my gosh, this is scary. And, um, yeah, I don't know where my next meal is coming from.

I mean, it's not quite that. But you know, it it, and it's not bad. It's not bad. We have to tell a new story. And the more we [00:19:00] get outta that comfort zone, the more that we develop that muscle, the story becomes a little bit more fun and more joyful. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Totally. Absolutely. And for me, that story is uncertainty is not only the realm of knee knocking angst, it's the realm of endless possibility.

Yeah. I mean, anything is possible because everything is possible, you know? Right. And I think that can be real. That's like a new, that's, to me, that's the reframe When I, when we know where the walls are in the ceiling is, I mean, that's known, but it's a small space because we know we've been here before.

We've done this before. And yeah, it feels safe, but at what cost? Mm-hmm. And so, hey, I'd, I'd rather be in the realm of. Li unlimited limited list possibility, right? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Uh, and, and then I accept what comes with that. And that doesn't mean I don't have days where I just wanna curl up on the couch and eat a Ben and Jerry's ice cream and, you know, right.

Binge [00:20:00] Netflix. But, uh, it, it's a good reminder. It's a good reminder that, hey, I am alive and I'm doing this thing and I don't know what it will be. Ain't that cool? Sometimes. Yeah. It's 

Penny Fitzgerald: very cool. Yeah.I found myself even just talking with you about it, that I'm, I'm talking myself into how, oh, no, no, no.

It's okay. Yeah. You know, some days are like that where you feel like, oh gosh, this was hard today, or, I have this thing I need to do that I haven't done before, or that I don't feel like I've done very well at before, or I don't have all the things figured out, so. For me, getting in a space where I'm like talking with someone like you, creatively, energetic, and very positive, and getting in that energy and staying around it, until I'm able to be brave enough to take that first step outta that comfort zone.

That to me, I feel is very important and very. It helps drive me forward instead of, or pull me forward rather than pushing me up the [00:21:00] hill. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Yeah, absolutely. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I love what you're pointing to, to me, you're pointing to partnership. Mm-hmm. And a beautiful interdependence and that's the beauty of it.

We're not alone in it, and, and we get to partner together. There's a lot, you know, to create the kind of lives and businesses we wanna create and to go further into the arena even when it feels scary. 'cause we're not alone in it. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. And I think that's so important. And it could be lonely to be an entrepreneur.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: It can be. Mm-hmm. And that's why I think community is so important. And partnership is important so that, you know, we surround ourselves with people that remind us like, Hey, uh, you know, it's, it's all of it baby. It's the, it's the peaks in the valleys, but we're doing it together. And ain't it, ain't it one hell of a ride?

Yes, it is. Like, you know, that we can mm-hmm. And that we can, you know. Hold each other or hold, hold space for one another. When those moments arise of the, the wobbles or those feelings, it's like, oh, I don't even, I don't know. Um, and I think that's, that's [00:22:00] what's needed and that we grow and expand and create together.

I mean, creativity is collaboration. Full stop. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that the older I get to, the more I realize how important my girlfriends are. Totally. You know? Absolutely. I mean, just sitting together and having, you know, a conversation and lifting each other up and. Collaborating and also sometimes commiserating Absolutely.

About all the things. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: It, it's so important. And also getting a chance to enjoy life and have fun and be together and laugh, laugh at ourselves. Love it. What's happening. Mm-hmm. Um, I know that once again, like we're not alone in it. That's why I think vulnerability, uh, is so powerful 'cause of what, it's what connects us sometimes really hard.

To be vulnerable. I didn't know I was gonna share things that I shared in my book, but I, but I did it because I, I really wanted to show how I lost and found my [00:23:00] creative power to invite people perhaps along the ride with me or, you know, to share something that might. Create some impact or make a, make a small ripple of a difference.

Um, and I think the only way, at least for me, where I really feel moved and connected is when I see someone, when I really feel their story and the story comes with its usual dramas and, and, uh, shadow and light. And I don't know that, just that, that makes me feel connected and supported. Scene when I read Yes.

Other people's stories and hear and and hear about what their, their journey looked like. All of it. They're not alone. Not just not, not, not just the golden, the golden peaks of the journey. Right, right. But the, the, the, the bruises and the beauty marks, the shit and the rainbows. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah, because sometimes that feels more real.

I mean, when you hear someone's story and you know, like you said, when you, [00:24:00] you are hearing a story and you see them, you hear them. That the person, that's the greatest gift I feel we can give to another human is to let them feel seen and heard that they are understood. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Absolutely. I agree. Without judgment.

Um, yeah. You know, just letting people be as they are and show up. Not needing to be any other way without Yeah. Just, just that fullness. And I think when we're able to share our story authentically, even when, especially when it's, it's raw and vulnerable. Mm-hmm. Uh, then we model that for other people, that it's right.

That it's okay to do that, that, that, that's actually what stitches us together. Are those, those, those, the, the, the realness of that. Yeah. And that felt important to me, especially in today's world. So important. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. And as a coach, don't you feel too that it's important you have [00:25:00] gone there, you've been there, done that kind of thing.

Now come with me. Let me pull you with me. Let me help you through some of the things that you're going through. 'cause I've been there too. How is that how you approach coaching? Or how, what, what do you, how do you structure? Well, I mean, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: this is what's interesting. When I went from being a creative director and copywriter, I did a coaching certification towards the end of my agency career at least.

Mm-hmm. Uh, in order to, you know, I found that. A lot of the creative challenges were also human challenges, so understanding how to relate to people differently was really, really important. It was not just about producing the best ideas or the best copy, but it was also about understanding how to, uh, really channel.

And reflect what a client or a human person needed or what their vision was or you know, or how to build on that. And yeah, it, it was felt much more relational. So I kinda stumbled into the world of coaching, which [00:26:00] is ultimately the art of transformation, which is very much creativity and saw so many beautiful parallels.

And so now I'm able to combine both the creative work, creative direction, copywriting strategy with coaching into what I call creative partnership. Okay. Depending on every, the, uh, people's in or company or brands in journeys where they are, I'll turn up the volume on these different tools that I have.

So sometimes the coaching will be a little bit lower. Sometimes the creative, the creative, the creative aspect is a bit higher and sometimes the vice versa. So, to answer your question, when it comes to coaching. Uh, it's not about me anymore. That was where I was going. So when I worked in the creative industry, often it's about who can come up with the best idea in the shortest amount of time, competitive in, in, you know, the.

In brief on budget, let's go. Very, it's very competitive, so it's, it's ultimately about the creative [00:27:00] problem solver. And in coaching it's very much the polar opposite. It's not about me at all, it's about the human in front of me. And what I'm there to do is really hold space to allow, heighten their self-awareness.

Right, so that they, people can connect to what feels right for them and people can feel into their own intuition and people can remove layers and get also to the heart of what it is they're really looking to create and make real in the world. Nice. You know, they feel safe. Oh, that's absolutely essential, uh, to courageous.

Any courageous exploration is a feeling of safety and a feeling of being seen, and a feeling of not someone imposing what they think you should do. It's not advice giving. It's not, you know, it, it's not telling anyone what to do. A basic, my answers are only mine. They only work for me. You know? So really as a coach, it's about, you know, helping people find their own answers.

I do that. We [00:28:00] do that through. My own intuition, powerful questions, um, you know, insights, a bunch of different tools in order to get to the heart of, of what it is that they're really looking to create in their life and make real in the world. And it's actually quite fascinating when that is paired. With the creative aspect.

So first, really understanding what stops you, what blocks you, what are you yearning to create? Is it really that, what else might it be? How does that vision support your overall, overall, joie de vivre, your overall life? Because it, it's much bigger than, than the creation, right? It's, it's, it's the whole of, it's the designing your experience.

And then once we have that kind of deeper understanding, we're able. Able to bring that to life. And I'm able to use my creative skills to help them do that, whether it's a brand or a business or a creative venture. And that's really exciting. I find that. So it's very rewarding and it's, it's such a gift to be able to be a creative midwife with, with [00:29:00] people.

Nice. Um, so, so. In many ways, I don't think my clients know much about me. Now they can, because they can read the book. But like, it, it, it's, it was never really about me sharing, this is what I've been through. This is because mm-hmm. It's, uh, it's not about me at all, really. Like Yeah. You know? Um, so that made writing this book that much more vulnerable, 

Penny Fitzgerald: right?

Yeah. Right. Well, and even when you're not sharing what made you, you, it gives you insight into. Being able to be open and being able to listen and being able to understand, to be able to help that person just be heard. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Definitely. And I think that's what so many of us need. This used to be seen. Yeah. Is to be heard and to also help see ourselves.

Yeah. Because often you know that also reflection, like sometimes I don't, we don't see our own brilliance. [00:30:00] You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so sometimes my clients say such wise things. I go, we're gonna just wanna pause here and I'm gonna repeat what I heard you say and what comes up for you when I repeat that back at you and people Oh, I said that.

Yeah. You look how wise you are. Yeah. Word for word, you know? Yeah, exactly. Look at this, look at your own wisdom. Like let's just take a moment and also learn to recognize when the saboteur voices come in. 'cause we all have them. Let's normalize that wherever. We all have an inner judge, right, number one.

And they usually have sidekicks that they hang out with, whether it's the controller or whatnot. And so understanding like, oh. That cadence, that's voice sounded a bit different. Who's, who just stepped into the room? What is, what is that? Oh, and it sounds very different from a more intuitive, wise, knowing voice and just being able to see ourselves again.

That self-awareness, uh, it, it enables us to step into the creative director's chair of our lives. Mm-hmm. We're when we have that [00:31:00] self-awareness. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's what's driving that decision. Hmm. Do I want it to, is that, is there something else? No, no. I'm looking to create that experience, not just that project.

Right. But I, I wanna create this feeling. The feeling It will give me, oh, what's the feeling you're after? Oh, it's freedom. Okay. What, what does that feel like in your body right now? And then 

Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. You're 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: able to see that. If it's the feeling you're after, you can create it in this moment, not only attached to the thing that you're looking to get or achieve.

Right. So it's, it's, it's fascinating. And of course I do that with myself as well. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah. We have to. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Right? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And I'm always, sorry to interrupt you, I'm always curious about pleasure, right. For myself. Like what, what, what feels pleasurable to me? What feels good? 'cause I don't find often, especially as women, my, you know what, what brings us pleasure?

What brings [00:32:00] us joy? What feels good? Yeah. And as I said, we, we grow and we change. So it's not a one and done asking these questions again and then experimenting with it going, oh, I think it's that. Okay, let's see how that feels. I'm gonna dance in the kitchen. Oh, that feels really wonderful. You know, and giving it to ourselves.

So getting curious and then actually. Allowing that experience is, uh, something I play with anyway. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. I believe the action brings clarity and you really don't know unless you give something a try. 100%. Yeah, 100%. Like, well, that didn't feel quite as like I thought it would, so let's try something else.

Let's do this instead. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And especially in business, I feel like, you know, when you're. Wondering, okay. How All these ideas that I wanna bring out into the world, these are the things that I wanna do to serve people well. Do they want that? Mm-hmm. Do [00:33:00] they need that? How will you know unless you get out there and ask some people or give it a try and see how it lands?

Do people really find a transformation in what you're offering? Is it helpful? Are you serving other people or is it just something that you wanted to do? Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Absolutely. I mean, I think that to me, that's why I love the word experimentation. Yes. Because when we experiment, we kind of separate, we kind of drop failure drops out of the equation.

Yes. Because it's not about failure, it's experimentation. We're just, we're experimenting. Right, right. And that means we're gonna get different data points. Some data points will be positive and some will, will, will be negative in the sense of, okay, that, hmm, interesting. It didn't work. That didn't work. And then you're running an experiment.

So you need all of that information that that's the nature of an experiment. It's getting all the data points and then making 

Penny Fitzgerald: exactly 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: a decision based once you have them. And looking at it going, okay, I think I'm gonna keep experimenting, but I'm gonna. [00:34:00] You know, double down on it. Yeah. Double down on that particular thing.

And then, and then to make it continuous because everything changes, right. And so riding that wave instead of, you know, which is difficult I think, instead of holding onto one version of it, back to the creative evolution and extinction moments. Because yes, when something works, it becomes really easy to to comfort, 

Penny Fitzgerald: comfortable.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Comfortable success can get very comfortable. Right. Right. And then it becomes more difficult to experiment, but Exactly. Our fulfillment is also on the other side of that, when we're feeling that pull in that tug anyway. If we're not feeling it, then great. You know, keep doing what you're doing. But oftentimes when we feel that tug of, oh, something more is calling me, I don't know what it is, but I'm really comfortable.

I think it's at those points becoming conscious of that. And saying, okay. I think that tug is trying to take me somewhere. Really interesting. Yeah. But I don't know where it'll go, but I'm gonna trust and see what comes [00:35:00] out on the other side. 

Penny Fitzgerald: That's great. Well, I feel too, like for me, I was in a job that I loved, love, love, loved.

I was doing in-home wine tastings. Oh, wonderful. I love that. It was so fun. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I had a large team, um. And leading them was such a great joy, you know, just being in the moment with them as they achieved what they were shooting for, you know, to get an incentive trip or buying a boat for their, their household, you know, I mean, it was just all the fun things that they had as on their goal poster and then helping them get it.

There were signs that the company wasn't really doing. I mean, it was starting to kind of decline after, um, well, COVID kind of had a big piece of that, but you, you could see maybe there I [00:36:00] should be looking for something else or I should be doing something else. I didn't see the signs. I didn't want to see the signs.

I loved that job. I was gonna make it work no matter what. And it didn't. So I'm, you know, in hindsight I'm looking back and thinking, oh my gosh, if I just started this, working for myself, serving others, doing this podcast, hearing the stories of brilliant women, you know, sharing this and collaborating and taking it where it's taking me now.

If I'd just started this earlier, gosh, I think of all the things that could have happened, you know, you can't dwell in, well, two, two lessons from that. You can't dwell in what didn't happen and don't bury your head in the sand when you love something so much that you wanna grab onto it and hold onto it so tightly, and it's not gonna work, don't, don't [00:37:00] just grab and hold on tight more, more tightly.

That doesn't work. What did it teach you? Um, I think it taught me to be more open to change. Mm-hmm. You know, to be more open to it. It's not a death, what if it's a possibility? Mm. You know what if it's something more? And I knew it would be, but I just didn't know what yet. So that's scary. Right? Not knowing, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: stepping into that comfort zone 

Penny Fitzgerald: again.

It sounds like it was part of the what led you here? Absolutely. You know, it all builds on. We're never starting over no matter what. You know, if we're starting a new career or starting a new path, it's not necessarily completely new. We're always building on our past experiences. We have all this wisdom that we've gained through trial and error and through all of the lessons that we've learned, even when they're painful.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: And I [00:38:00] think that's the most important thing to remember. It's not, it's not the death of us in a way, our identity that was connected to what we used to do. Mm-hmm. It's, it's the death of that particular expression of ourselves in what we do. Yeah. But we take all of it with us. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: We're able then to take it and transmute it or build on it, or have it grow and evolve into something new, into a new creative venture.

Right. I think everything you described to me is, is a, is an experience and process I very much relate to. I did the same thing when I was in my 'cause. I loved what I did. I loved working, I worked at a, a purpose-driven creative consultancy, so using creativity to do good in the world. So I was on paper and it was wonderful.

It was my last agency job. It was so wonderful and I think that's what made it harder to leave. Mm-hmm. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Even though I knew it felt like time was up, right? Like I Exactly, I knew it. I, I had done it deep down. I [00:39:00] had done it down, deep down, knew, I knew it deep down, but it was really, it was too frightening to think of like, what am, what am I gonna do?

If not that, what, what, right. I have, I have no idea what it will be. And I think calling in compassion and grace. For ourselves in those moments. It, it takes the time, it takes, you know, um, it's just part of our process and the next time that we're at that kind of sticky juncture again. Mm-hmm. It might take a, it might look a bit different because we've done it once before, but I feel like that first time, it's a lot.

It's the big leap. It's, it's the biggest jump that we take. At least that's what it looked like for me. You know, after that, the second big jump was writing the book, which also felt really scary, but that only took me 24 hours to make a decision, whereas, and once you decide, yeah, then I'm ready. You 

Penny Fitzgerald: put it into motion.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: That's right. And then it just starts, whereas leaving my agency role, because it meant so much, it meant moving [00:40:00] into entrepreneurship and not knowing what exactly I was going to be building, as you said, the train and the tracks. Right? Yeah. Um, that took much longer. And that's okay. Like, just like for yourself, like it took longer and you loved it so much.

And it was something that brought you so much joy. You, you ignored the signs because you didn't wanna see them. And that's, it's okay. Grace and compassion, and then look where it brought you. Mm-hmm. And now the next time there's a calling or signs appear, I'm sure you'll, you might see them. Yeah. Yeah, 

Penny Fitzgerald: yeah.

And I, I'll be more willing to pivot, I think, earlier. Yeah. And use more action to, to gain clarity instead of, you know, doing the things that we've always done. You have to do something new all the time. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: It's true. And that's why I think, uh, first times are really good. Like I am, I just, I just turned 50, uh, May 23rd.

I'm still [00:41:00] getting 60 over here, 

Penny Fitzgerald: girl. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Wow. You have, I would not have never have guessed much younger energy. I You either. I mean, come on. We're just wise. We're wiser. Wiser. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I was in, in Bali and I'm like, I want to go to Bali and give myself the pleasure of that experience. Mm-hmm. And I wanna do more first thi more first times Oh.

As I get older. Nice. Right? Yes. Because I think that is a way of running a series of experiments. For yourself that, that, you know, it en enables us to feel that fear and do it anyway in small doses. Mm-hmm. And so I decided to learn how to surf. I don't know why. I just really wanted, oh, I didn't wanna be, I've never surfed before.

I wasn't expecting to be like, you know, an expert or do it. Well, it wasn't about that. It was just, I've never done it. I'm in Bali. Let's try. And I had this idea of how cool it would be. I do the, I do the surfing lesson. It was really hard. It was, it was. It was a lot of like, there's paddle, paddle, paddle, there's a lot of work, and [00:42:00] then I felt a lot of fear, you know?

Yes. Like I had a, I had a trainer, I had a coach with me, like someone who's gonna, I've never done this, and he's behind me. Uh, holding, like, I can't see. And he's just like, I'm gonna tell you when to start paddling, and then I'm gonna say, get up and you need to get up. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And I, 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: for the first few times I just, my brain, I just wasn't getting up.

My body wouldn't do it. Scary. Yeah. It was, it was. I just felt scared. And it was cool. 'cause what was interesting was in that moment I was able to feel my fear and then I got curious about it, not judgemental. I got curious like, oh, what am I really afraid of? I, I don't know what's gonna happen. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Dying.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Yeah. Face planting into the surfboard. No, but it was really, I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea what I was doing. 'cause I'd never done it before. So I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what would happen when I tried to stand up, when I, mm-hmm. I just didn't know. And so, ultimately. It's the unknown, and I've already known this, but it was kind of cool to see it in a completely different way, in a different [00:43:00] Uhhuh environment where it's like, oh, this fear is just 'cause I have no, I'm not gonna curse.

But I felt moved to, I have no clue. I have no freaking clue what's gonna happen, what this is. And lo and behold, like after the first few times of messing up and not really getting up. I started the fear dissipated because I started to say, okay, well it's the, when I start to feel the energy from the wave, he's gonna tell me to paddle.

Yeah. And then I try to get up and if I can, I will. And if I don't, I'll fall off. Um, and then the second time I did a lesson. I actually stood up, not eloquent, eloquently, and I mean, I didn't stand up looking like a ballerina at all, but I, I stood up and I was really proud of myself for that. 'cause again, I was just trying to, just trying things for the first time.

And, um, I also went scuba diving for the first time. Which is something my husband wanted to do. He had no, no intention of surfing with me and SW like swam with these big manta, manta ray. Huge. 

Penny Fitzgerald: [00:44:00] Wow. Yeah, huge 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: fish. And that was new and that also felt scary, but. Also really cool. So I don't know. I feel like that's one way that we all, you don't have to go to Bali to do it, but you know, we can all sort of experiment with what are those first times and what does it feel like when we do something for the first time.

Ultimately, there will be, I imagine, I don't know, let maybe someone in the audience go out and feel any fear, and I'll say hoorah, but for me, at a girl, there's, there's often a bit of fear. In the mix when, because I don't, it's the unknown. I've never done it. I don't know what it's gonna be. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that's, that's another way of, uh, strengthening our muscle to be in uncertainty.

Absolutely. And to feel more of the possibility and that aliveness that we spoke about right. Back to that, yes. Doing things for their first time feels a little terrifying and it feels really beautiful and exciting and thrilling all at once. And I feel really alive. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And then after you do it, you feel so accomplished because you [00:45:00] gave it a try.

Even if you're not, you know, the ballerina on, you're not up there like graceful, but it, that beginner mindset, just trying something new totally keeps our brains active too. I feel like it's just good for us all the way around. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Absolutely. And I, and that doing something new, I think correlates or being in new environments, yes, doing something new.

Being does correlate. Neuroscience research does show mm-hmm. That creativity is enhanced. I. When we travel often, because we're in new, we're in new environments, new sites, new, new sounds, new tastes, our, you know, new situations. We find ourselves in that we need to sort of respond to connect ideas. Um, it's, it challenges us.

It can build new neural pathways and it's quite exciting and we don't always need to travel super far, but we can find ways. We need to be in new environments. So that can look like travel, but I would argue that we can also create that in our lives [00:46:00] without needing again, to jump on a plane for 20 hours like I did.

Like we can do it differently. Mm-hmm. It'd be fun. Yeah. It is also fun of also fun. Do that too. Do that to me. Yes. So I just felt like throwing that in there because, um, it, it's, it's just interesting to, to see how, how these things intersect. 

Penny Fitzgerald: That's great. Can, can you tell us a little bit more about that neuroscience behind it?

Because I think that's fascinating. I think, I mean, we know in our gut that, wow, that felt good or that really made me feel brave. Mm. But what's the, it, it does create new pathways, right? That helps stimulate and create more, um, ability for ourselves. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Definitely. And I think it's like, it, it, so. Our known behaviors or routines kind of deepen a, a groove, a neuropath or like a groove.

So if you imagine like a ski slope going down and it, it may, it's easier because there's already a path that's been, we've done it again and again and again. Just [00:47:00] so then you're, you're able to just, we slide down the path and when we choose to create a new neural pathway, uh, it's fresh snow. Right. So, you know, when you have to make a new trail in fresh snow, it takes some sweat.

You know, it's, it's, it's, it's new. It's you're unknown. You're creating, it's unknown, but it's also really powerful because then we create new ways of seeing and new ways of being and new behaviors, uh, according to neuroscience, and I need to, to double check this fact, but did research for the book because I'm not a neuroscientist, but.

It takes, I think it takes 300 times or at least three months of repeating a new behavior or really to create a new habit for it. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Hmm. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Wow. Which I, which I thought was just really fascinating to see how, uh, the plasticity of the brain, right? Yeah. So we give up too soon. We are very much able to create new behaviors and new [00:48:00] ways of, of seeing and being, and new routines and new, new rituals for ourselves.

Um, through that is totally based on research that is Of course, absolutely possible. It doesn't mean it's easy, right. But it, it's, we are able to do that. Wow. And I think, uh, you know, it's, it's, to me, it's just fascinating to also look at the science behind creativity as well, to to show and prove that, you know, if people say, well, I'm not creative, I think that belief is what stops us from.

Really? Mm-hmm. Em embracing and activating our innate creativity because our brains show us that this is a part of the human makeup. We're wired to be creative. We have the control mold network. In the brain, which is sort of like the analytical reasoning, right? When we make decisions. Mm-hmm. And, and we have the default, I'm oversimplifying this, but hey, that's okay.

As sound. That's good. And then the, the, you know, the default mode, otherwise known [00:49:00] as the Imagination Network, which is the, the processes that happen when we're not thinking about something in specif particular. So it's kind of what happens, what we're thinking about when we're not thinking. If that makes sense.

So it's, it's usually activated when we're daydreaming, when our mind is wandering and it's been shown to be connected very much to creativity. It's sort of that, that unconscious processes that, um, allow ideas to incubate. Right. So it's happening underneath the surface. Yes. And to create space for that is just as important as the evaluation and analysis and research also important, the two work together for creativity.

Right. So first we do the research. Mm-hmm. Understanding what is it? What is it we're looking to create and what's the research information behind that? Now can we start to connect certain dots? And then we allow a period, then we let it go and allow [00:50:00] a period of incubation, which is why when we take a shower or we're we're in, that's when the thoughts come.

Yeah. Right. Or we're driving, that's when the ideas come up. It's 'cause we're not actively in pursuit of a solution. We, we let it go and that's when the default mode network comes online and starts to do the work for us. But we need to create space for it. We need to let it go. Listen. Then there's an, it's right, there's an an illumination moment as well where it's like a eureka moment after incubation, elimination, and then after that there's evaluation then.

Control mode comes back, we evaluate the ideas and saying, okay, well what's feasible? What feels right? What's connected? Yeah. And both of these processes work in tandem and I think in our world, and uh, by the way, that creative, uh, process or thinking that I just described was, um, created by, Wallas.

 he devised like these are the four steps in creative thinking. He's psychologist. Um, so [00:51:00] in our modern world, we often prioritize the eval, the research and the evaluation, right. Over incubation and illumination. We don't give space or time or allowance for that.

So I very much advocate for both, like understanding that it's, it's rest and relaxation. Our part of our creative process. Meditation. All of base. Exactly. Movement. All of it. Yes. Um, just as important. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Well, yeah. And evaluation. It can be so easy to fall back into our old patterns and poo poo that creativity that comes to us in those quiet moments and say, oh no, that would never work.

Yes, yes. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Because 

Penny Fitzgerald: that would keep us safe. We don't have to try something new then. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Boom. 100%. And that's why it's very important to, um, disconnect. Like at least when, when we're doing and when we're creating anything, when we're in that sort of first [00:52:00] iterative creative flow where in draft mode, where just like anything goes, ideas mode, when that poo-pooing comes up, when that internal critic starts to go, you say, oh, no, no.

I say not now. You. You can come back. Yeah, exactly. You can come back, but it's not now. This is a space where there's no editing, there's no evaluating, there's just pure possibility. We're throwing pasta on the walls and seeing what sticks, and we're having fun with it. It doesn't have to be plausible. It doesn't have to be real realistic.

It doesn't have to be feasible. Not in this space. Yeah. When we leave this space. You are most welcome to come to the table, then we need you. Then you can help us go, okay, these are, these are the pieces we're picking. This is what makes sense, but not before. And that's helped me a lot because it's not saying no, it's saying not now.

Mm-hmm. It's saying not yet. Yeah. Right. And then that part of you. Or that part of your mind might feel like, okay, okay. I I take that. I take that. Yeah, we welcome you, we honor you, but it's not here. It's not now. And that [00:53:00] always helps me at least also when I'm That's good creative process. Uh, 'cause if the two start to get mixed up, that's how we get stuck.

Get stuck. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. It's so easy to allow ourselves to just be safe and small, to be 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Yeah. Absolutely. And that's ultimately what that voice, if you wanna call it, that, uh, is trying to do. Yeah, keep it safe for sure. Yeah. You know? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Pia,. What have I not asked you that you would love to share? 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Oh, well, I, I don't know if it's just what I'd love to share, but, um, I'd love your question about wine.

I. And so I thought I can, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's, 

Penny Fitzgerald: okay, so tell me, I, I always ask my guests near the end of our, our conversation, you know, what's your favorite kind of wine and what's in, what's a great memory that you've had with girlfriends sharing a glass and that kind of thing. But you had a great response.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Yeah. So it was really [00:54:00] interesting because, um, I actually stopped drinking five years ago. I think everyone should do whatever they wanna do, right? But for me personally. Um, when, as long as they're safe and not hurting anybody else. Right, right, right. Yeah. Caveat. Um, yeah. For me, I think the greatest conversations that I've had happened when I moved to Kombucha, which is my new, like fun, my new fun drink, kombucha, pineapple Tecate kombucha, sour cherry, kombucha.

There's so many good flavors. Um, because I felt like I was more present. For myself and in those conversations, the more than I have been when I had wine. Also, you know, alcoholism runs in my family. So the, oh, the, the wine, or at least my mom's side, maybe both. The wine often felt like, uh, a lubricant. It was what was needed.

It was a reward. At the end of a hard day, you had a glass of wine at the Yeah. In order to enjoy yourself, you had a glass of [00:55:00] wine and it felt more liberating to me. Um. To have a glass of kombucha ev with the person having a glass of wine, for example. Or even my husband having a Negroni, which he adores, you know?

And being able to, to not have a glass of wine and have something else feels like that, that's what I discovered worked for me as I got older and allowed for, um, allowed me to feel myself in, in, in, in those spaces too. 'cause I discovered it was really funny when I, when I was drinking. I was able to hang out hell of a lot longer, uh, with large groups, large groups of people, and I didn't really feel myself in it.

And when I stopped drinking, um, I realized, especially in big groups, after a couple of hours, I was done. Like, I, I was not because I wasn't an overstimulation. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. I mean, you can 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: really, yeah. Yeah. And I just thought it was interesting 'cause I didn't use to feel it. It it was new. Wow. That experience. Wow.

Penny Fitzgerald: [00:56:00] Yeah, because I was, I could see that. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Yeah. And I thought, oh, this is so cool in the sense that I, I get to feel into myself and into what I need and also to show up fully and when I'm ready to exit fully, like I, I can also do that. And so it's just been a really wild journey. Um, and it. It feels quite great to be able to, that's cool.

To relate to myself and to my friends in a different way. Yeah. Also, it opens up new doors. Like what do we, what do we do for, I'm not drinking because I, I don't necessarily go out and party in the same way anymore. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, heavens no. No. It's so different now. Right. Yeah. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: So, yeah, and again, this is not to say I, I really, I think everyone should do what brings them pleasure with the caveat.

Uh, but that's, that, that was just part of my journey. And the last wonderful memory that I had was with my friend Heather. I. One of my dear friends that I've known since New York Days when I was 19 [00:57:00] and I saw all different iterations of her and she's in all different iterations of me. And recently we met up, my dad lives in Arizona, so we met up, um, in, in Arizona and we did a road trip to Joshua Tree and we bought, went to the store.

Oh, it was so nice. We went to the store like a Whole Foods or wherever and we got like five, six different types of kombucha. 'cause she's also a non drinker. Yes. And hummus and carrots, and we just kind of sat, watched the sunset and did our kombucha tasting and talked about life. And she's actually a neuroscientist.

I interviewed her for my book. Uh, fascinating. Fantastic. Yeah, she's, she's absolutely brilliant. Uh, and also a very dear friend and, uh, talked about. Life and love and experiments and explorations, uh, and wobbles and mm-hmm the thrill of it, uh, while sipping on different flavors of kombucha. That's a really sweet memory.

Penny Fitzgerald: Watching the sunset with a girlfriend and talking about all the things. [00:58:00] Absolutely. It's beautiful. Oh, wonderful. Pia, this has been so amazing. 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: It really has. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you. And for this magical conversation. Uh, it's been really lovely. Your energy is just so bright and warm.

Oh, I really appreciate it. You, 

Penny Fitzgerald: this has been great. Um, one thing I'm neglected to ask you, where can people find you? And I'll include the links in the show notes and everything so people can find you. But where would you like to send us? 

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: I think Kollectiv.Studio is the, my website is probably the best place to go.

And it's spelled, it'll be in the show notes, but it's spelled with, uh. K, it's K-O-L-L-E-K-T-I-V dot studio. So a little twist of a spelling there for collective. And, uh, there's more about my work and my book and different ways of, uh, working with me that are on the site. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Wonderful.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter: Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, Penny. It's been such a pleasure. Mm-hmm. Bye. [00:59:00] Bye.