The System Wasn’t Built for You—Lead Anyway

When you’re the only woman in the room, it takes courage to speak up—and even more courage to do it again after being talked over, dismissed, or ignored.

This week, I’m joined by Kae Kronthaler-Williams, a longtime tech executive and author of Not Made for You: How Women Can Challenge Bias, Claim Their Space, and Thrive in a System Built for Men.

Kae shares what it’s really like to navigate male-dominated spaces, the language women can use to call out bias with grace, and how we can support each other to lead differently—together.

In this episode:

• The power of naming bias (and what to say when it happens)
• How to hold your ground and stay calm under pressure
• The truth about the “maternal bias” and other hidden workplace hurdles
• Why women founders still face funding gaps—and how we change it
• The role of sisterhood and mentorship in rewriting the rules

This conversation isn’t about blame—it’s about awareness, agency, and action.

Grab your copy of Kae's Book HERE.

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Transcript

 The System Wasn’t Built for You—Lead Anyway 

[00:00:00] Many of us have been there, the only woman in the room trying to share an idea while someone else jumps in and takes it over. This week I'm joined by Kae Kronthaler-Williams, a longtime tech exec who's helping women name what's really happening and change the conversation.

Literally from calling out bias with grace to building stronger professional relationships, Kae shares wisdom, every woman in business needs to hear Here is [00:01:00] Kae Kronthaler-Williams.

[00:01:01] Penny Fitzgerald: Hi, Kae

[00:01:02] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: hi, how are you? I'm 

[00:01:04] Penny Fitzgerald: good. How are you? I'm well, thank you. So great to meet you. You too. Nice meeting you. Where are you? I, I am, uh, in 

[00:01:12] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Massachusetts. 

[00:01:13] Penny Fitzgerald: Massachusetts. Okay.

Well, Kae. tell us a little bit about you. For my audience benefit, would you give us your name and your, a little bit about your background? 

[00:01:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Sure. My name is Kae Kronthaler-Williams, and I am a software marketing executive in the tech industry.

I've been in the tech industry for over 30 years. Um, and in various industries like supply chain, manufacturing, accounting, um, and various other industries. 

[00:01:46] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow, that's great. So you have, um, been in the corporate side? 

[00:01:51] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Yes. Okay. So I've done, I've worked in. Some large companies like IBM mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

And, [00:02:00] and Verizon a long time ago. But most of the, mostly my career is in midsize or startup stage up companies. 

[00:02:08] Penny Fitzgerald: Nice. Yeah. Wow. The full gamut. Yes. I used to work for EDS Oh, I know. EDS. Yes, yes, absolutely. If you did IBM. Um, so yeah, I did, um, also supply chain stuff, like third part party logistics and Yep.

Mm-hmm. Um, working in the distribution center. So I'm kind of familiar with that side of things and 

[00:02:29] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: yeah. 

[00:02:30] Penny Fitzgerald: Working with a lot of men. 

[00:02:32] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. That's, that's a given when you're in tech, I think. 

[00:02:36] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Tech and distribution and logistics, the whole bit. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. How did, how did you get into what, what you did and um, how did you get into tech?

[00:02:48] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So it's interesting. I went to school for International Economics, um, not for marketing, um, but I was working while I was in college and I was working at a company [00:03:00] that started a software division and I was. Actually a telemarketer at that time. And my manager, you know, knew I was going to school and working at the same time.

And she said, you know, they're starting a new division. Um, I think you should go for it, um, as a marketing assistant. And so we discussed that it was a. Downgrade in, in level and pay. but she, she was a really smart woman. She used to be like a computer programmer for a long time, so just this engineer.

And she said, I, she was like, if you can do it, I think you should do it because I think it, in the long term, it's a better career path for you. So that's what I did and that's what got me into tech and I haven't looked back. I, I love tech. I still love it after all these years. Wow. 

[00:03:48] Penny Fitzgerald: How, how did marketing and tech mesh together?

How did you, um, so when I, how did that path happen? How did 

[00:03:55] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: that happen? So, I, when I came over as an assistant, it was to the [00:04:00] marketing department in this, uh, in this software division, this very new software division. So I was working for, um, I was a marketing assistant to three women actually. Um, wow. That were running marketing at the time, and they, mm-hmm.

Taught me everything. I know, I think, and others did along the way, but most of my marketing experience is hands-on. Mm-hmm. I did go back and get my MBA and that concentration was in marketing, but it was all learned through working. Mm-hmm. And I really enjoyed it. I enjoy, um. Strategy. You know, I enjoy the demand gen and figuring out campaigns, but I enjoy the strategy and positioning the right messaging and, um, that, that just fascinated me.

Like, how can we message to customers so they understand what we're trying to sell them? And I just found that really fascinating. That's, that's 

[00:04:52] Penny Fitzgerald: a lot though. Yes. Right? Because, you know, talking to the customers and what their needs are and then talking to the engineers on the other side or the, the [00:05:00] tech people that are gonna execute the plan.

Right. And being that liaison, you have to speak a different language, right? Yes. I mean, you kind of have to 

[00:05:07] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: translate, you have to be able to, that's exactly right. You're a translator. You have to translate what their, what the product and engineering teams are. Our building and, and, and their verbiage for, to explain that to you.

And, and thankfully I've had a lot of engineers and product people who are great at breaking down some of the more complex technologies. Um mm-hmm. You know, when I was starting out in my career, certainly. So I had some really great people to work with. And then being able. Understand the customer doing customer research, market research and what their needs were and, and, and matching the two and creating those messages that would resonate with, with the, um, target audience, the customers.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:48] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. And you had a lot of female mentors it sounds like, too, 

[00:05:52] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: in early I think that was just in that company. I predominantly worked for men, um mm-hmm. In my whole [00:06:00] career. I think I recently. My last company, I worked for a one female, CEO. As an executive, I've only worked for one female as an ex as Wow.

Since I became an executive, they were all men. Wow. Yeah. It's, well, and that's, you know, the industry is male dominated. Yeah. So that's, I'm not surprised by that. Yeah. Most of the CEOs in these tech firms are men. Yeah. 

[00:06:23] Penny Fitzgerald: Do you see 

[00:06:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: a shift? 

[00:06:24] Penny Fitzgerald: Is it changing a 

[00:06:25] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: bit 

[00:06:25] Penny Fitzgerald: or is it still pretty 

[00:06:27] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Not enough. Um, I, there's, there's, there's some women, um, in tech, even some women founders, but we're not getting the investments that we, that men typically get.

And, and actually the book that I wrote, there's a part that talks about founders and how many female founders find that they get, um, funding. If there's a man who's a co. Co-owner with them. Oh, wow. More than if they're by themselves. We just 

[00:06:56] Penny Fitzgerald: still, 

[00:06:57] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: we're still considered risky. A, [00:07:00] a risky investment. Wow.

Sure. I mean, they, they don't look at us as, um, being able to run a successful business. You know, there's some of the stereotypes of, of being a mother and having that, and I'm not a mother, but I see it all the time, having that commitment to family. Where that doesn't show up for men. 

[00:07:25] Penny Fitzgerald: Interesting. Because, well, we know we're preaching to the choir here, but women, if you're running a household, you're totally capable of running a company.

That's right. Yeah. That's right. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's, that's really disappointing to hear that it's still. Well, and we know this to be true, it's still, we need to find ways to work, work together. 

[00:07:49] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: That's a huge bias. You know, we talk, you know, there's, you know, one, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but one of the biases that I see is this maternal bias that women are regarded differently.

Women [00:08:00] who have children or want to have children are regarded differently. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. We're not as committed to our roles in, in their eyes. And the reality is, um, I think it's like 80%. Single parent families in the US mm-hmm. Are single mothers. 

[00:08:16] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:16] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And 41% of mothers are the primary or sole, provider in a household.

Mm-hmm. But we still don't view it that way. Mm. We still view that men need these jobs because they're supporting a family. And I don't know what they think we're doing, but they don't think that we need the money to support a family. 

[00:08:38] Penny Fitzgerald: So, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I've seen a shift in the conversations that I'm having with brilliant women that a lot of the ladies who have been in corporate roles who are trying to prove that they're,Very capable of running a division or a company. They're breaking out of that. A lot of them [00:09:00] are founding their own companies now. They're becoming founders and Yes. Yeah. Getting their, getting out of corporate. And that's what 

[00:09:05] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: exactly and, and as, as I was going writing my book, I thought, okay, if we're not able to do what we want to do in these companies, the answer is go build our own companies.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:15] Penny Fitzgerald: But when I 

[00:09:16] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: started to research that, that's where I found that these founders are trying, trying to get funding. They're struggling on that end. They, they are dealing with bias as well. Right. Sexism as well, trying to get funding. So it's, it's just not easy either way. 

[00:09:34] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. What's, what's the title of your book?

[00:09:37] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: It's called, not Made for You. Mm-hmm. Where women can Challenge Bias, claim their space and Thrive in a System Built for Men. 

[00:09:47] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. Wow, that's powerful. So how, in your research and in writing the book, how do you feel that we start to make that shift? Or how do we support each other in growing our, our businesses and [00:10:00] finding that funding and making it, making it happen?

[00:10:04] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yeah, I think, um, well, I think women should, it. I think women should continue to try and either stay, if they wanna stay in tech in these industries, I think they should. Mm-hmm. And I think if women wanna go out and found their own businesses, that's great as well because I think the more women we have in these fields, then we can hire other women, right.

Because we, yes, we know what we're capable of. 

[00:10:25] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:26] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, but I think that the, I think for women. In a tech industry, the way they can maneuver through that is by naming these situations. We don't, sometimes the bias can be so subtle. Mm-hmm. So we have to be aware when it's happening and name it 

[00:10:45] Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. 

[00:10:45] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And address it.

I mean, that's the first step is to really sit back and see what's happening in those rooms. Am I being spoken over or is, you know, Sue being spoken over constantly and address it. And [00:11:00] then, um, I think supporting each other in the rooms. Like what? Ty and I started to see a little bit of that, and I'll tell you about that in a second, in my last company.

Okay. But a lot of times we. Are aware of a bias and then we go talk about it after outside of the room to each other. We need to talk about it and address it in the room with the person always professionally and calmly. And there's ways to do that. And in my book, I talk about the strategies on how to address certain situations.

Oh, that's great. 

[00:11:29] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And give them 

[00:11:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: the language. If someone says this to you, you say this right? Or Here's what you need to do. So I think we need to start addressing it in those rooms. Um, and then if you are in the room with another woman, support that woman. If you're seeing it, always support them and they'll automatically support you back.

And what I noticed in my last company that I was in, there were, so the first time in my career where I was typically not the only female executive, or maybe there was one more [00:12:00] typically in hr, um, this one there were three women and three men as executives. And when I noticed, when they're now number one, we would support each other if somebody was speaking over us.

We would say, well, actually, you know, Kae, just, Kae just said that. Or, uh, let's let Kae finish your thought, or things like that. Mm-hmm. We, we did that for each other. But what I also noticed happening is when you had those groups, and maybe it was, it ended up being four women to three men eventually, but we started, I could tell the men started to respect our views 'cause they had to.

And these are lovely men, don't get me wrong. They're lovely men. Right. But no, it's just 

[00:12:42] Penny Fitzgerald: a practice. I mean, it's just the way it's been done. 

[00:12:45] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. It's, it's, we're socialized that way. Right, right. Um, but they started to. Understand that we had certain parts of our profession, whether it was product, whether we were in customer success or sales or marketing.

We knew our business well [00:13:00] because they couldn't turn their heads and go ask some other guy. If you're the only woman in the room, they can go ask the other men and they always question you and then ask the men for the advice. Mm-hmm. Whether there's women in the room. Or even more than one, it's more difficult to do.

So we ended up having this amazing executive team that learned how to work well together and respect each other's profession. So that gave me hope. Mm-hmm. For the first time in my career. Wow. Yeah. 

[00:13:28] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Well, if you're the first woman in the room, it's risky to speak up. Yes. And it's, you have to be brave To speak out. We, you get labeled or you ha you're afraid of being labeled. Yes. In the past it was very common to be labeled. Well, you're so aggressive. Well, yes. Would you call a man aggressive? I don't think so. Right, right. 

[00:13:49] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And that is a, that's one of the other biases, right? It's, it's the mm-hmm. Being, it's that tightrope that we're always playing.

Either we're, we're not aggressive enough or we're too aggressive. 

[00:13:58] Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

[00:13:58] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, and [00:14:00] so it is difficult to. Speak up in a room, especially if you're in a room by yourself. 

[00:14:06] Penny Fitzgerald: 

[00:14:06] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: But what I found was if you do it calmly and professionally 

They'll start to re respect. And you have to, you have to demand and command that respect, right?

Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, it should be automatic, but it's not. So there are ways to address it, but you have to be careful. No question. There's times where you're not gonna say it in the room, you're gonna go and say it after to the person. 

[00:14:28] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:14:28] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: But you still address it. That's the thing we, we fail to do sometimes we don't address it with the person.

If you address it in a calm, professional manner in the room, or. In your next one-on-one, especially if it's your boss, your leader, right. Right. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to challenge, and I'm working with CEOs. Right. It's difficult to challenge them in a room initially. Yes. But if you're building the rapport with them and then you go to them on the side and say, Hey, I noticed that when I say something in a room, [00:15:00] you go ask John Charlie.

Yeah, yeah. Or Charlie, his opinion. Right. Help me understand why. Like, is there something I'm not, am I not providing you enough information? Like always take the, give them the benefit of the doubt. 

[00:15:15] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:15] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: But you're putting them on notice that you notice what they're doing. 

[00:15:19] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. I see you. 

[00:15:20] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: They may slip up and do it again.

[00:15:23] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, some may be very arrogant and not hear anything you have to say. Mm-hmm. But most of 'em are generally unaware. Mm-hmm. Um, and they will be more careful. 

[00:15:35] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:15:36] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right. 

[00:15:36] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow, that's brave and so brilliant. 

[00:15:40] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yeah, but you, I was forced to do it because, oh yeah. I was in these rooms by myself, and I see this pattern over and over and it gets very frustrating year after year.

Oh, after year, so. I started to address it, but you do all the things around that. I always made sure I mastered my profession, right? Yes. I was, anytime anything changed in marketing, I was on top [00:16:00] of it, learning about it, getting that experience. So I had credibility as well, and that's important. And I was always very calm.

When I communicated. Right. You have to become a great communicator. Very professional. Always. Yeah. Even if they're not, even if they're, yeah. Being rude. Even if they're raising their voice, don't do that. And it does work. It works. 

[00:16:26] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. That's difficult. Sometimes 

[00:16:28] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: it can be very difficult. 

[00:16:30] Penny Fitzgerald: Yes. Mm-hmm. And how do you suggest that people do that?

How do we, how do we stay calm 

[00:16:34] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So some of it came with age. I'll be honest, I don't know that I would've handled this well when I was younger. I was a bit of a, you know, I don't wanna say I was a hot head, but you're not a hot head. You're just angry, right? That this is right. You're, you're shocked.

I think we're, we're so shocked when we come into these environments 'cause we're get outta college or outta high school, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And we have these great ambitions and we're excited about our career. And we don't rec, we know it might be a little [00:17:00] difficult 'cause we're women, but we don't recognize how frequently and subtly it happens.

Right, right. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it's, it's a matter of. Understand. Like really being able to read a room and backing up and acknowledging that this is a system that was built for men. When you really look at it through that lens, it's a system that wasn't built for you. 

[00:17:26] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:26] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So stop trying to fit in the way they fit in.

[00:17:30] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:17:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right. So when you look at it that way, you can kind of pull yourself back from the emotion and recognize too that they're not always, now some of these guys are not. Some of these guys are doing it on purpose and they have strong mm-hmm. Biases. Oh yeah. Against women. Push your button. 

[00:17:47] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:47] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Some of 'em aren't, right.

Some of them, it's not their intent. So if you recognize that, take a deep breath. Always pause. 

[00:17:55] Penny Fitzgerald: And 

[00:17:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: then react, but react again in a professional manner. [00:18:00] Um, it takes practice. Yes. It takes patience. It takes patience, right? Yeah. Sometimes you may wanna do it outside of the room first, and then slowly do it inside of the room.

Um, if there's more women in the room, you'll feel more comfortable. 

[00:18:15] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:15] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And, and if you have them as a support system, these are things you're discussing with each other. Outside of the room to support each other, you'll feel more comfortable. 'cause you'll know they'll mm-hmm. Have your back, so to speak.

[00:18:26] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Um, 

[00:18:27] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: so those are the ways that I would, but the first thing is awareness. You have to be aware that it's happening. 

[00:18:33] Penny Fitzgerald: Right, right. And then to make them aware. Yeah. That it, yeah. It's just the way it's always been done. So it's a habit. 

[00:18:40] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes, it is a habit. And we also. Think it's so subtle that we are like, oh, they didn't mean it.

Or did that really happen? So you question yourself. Yeah. And you don't address it. And one of the, you know, I just did a video about something, um, about, it's called "He-peating". When a, you say something, you have an idea, and then the man [00:19:00] takes the idea. Oh 

[00:19:00] Penny Fitzgerald: yeah. Which 

[00:19:01] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: happens. We know that happens 

[00:19:03] Penny Fitzgerald: of, of course.

Yeah. But 

[00:19:04] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: you know, my, my comment in the video was that. This must be addressed. Because what happens is if that keeps happening to you in a room, you're being devalued. The guy is the one that looks like they have all these great ideas. And so when promotion time comes, who's getting that promotion? Right?

Not you. 

[00:19:26] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:27] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right. And so I think when we say, oh, well let it slide, you can't really let it slide because it's affecting your career path and promotions. And so that's why you have to, you have to act, right? You have to name it. 

[00:19:42] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yeah. I like he repeating. That's, yes. I love that. Mansplaining is another one.

Mansplaining. 

[00:19:48] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Is another one. Of course. 

[00:19:50] Penny Fitzgerald: Yes. We know that. Yeah. It's, it is very much, it reminds me of systemic poverty and not really poverty, but it's this system that [00:20:00] exists. Because it's the way it's always been done and it the women who are raising a family or who are contributing to a household are contributing to their own financial stability.

So not getting that promotion, not being the one who is recognized as the one who came up with the idea, it is holding us back. And financially and the career path. All of it. 

[00:20:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Right. And it affects us. If you think about the over the lifetime, we talk about the gender pay gap, right? We talk about it in terms of cents to dollars, but the reality is it's millions of dollars lost if you look at over a 40 year career.

Right? Right. Because everything's tied to that. Our bonuses are tied to that. Our 401k match is tied to that. Our social security's tied to that. 

[00:20:48] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And that's the 

[00:20:49] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: same for these promotions. We're losing millions of dollars in our career. Wow. As a result. And so I think if women start to recognize that mm-hmm.

Maybe they'll be [00:21:00] more apt to speak up. 

[00:21:01] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I so agree with you that it gets easier as we get older. Sure. Yeah. Yes. To speak up, it's um, you get brave. 

[00:21:11] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yeah. But that's why, you know, I have gave language in the book. Right. Nice. It's practical, nice. 

[00:21:16] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:17] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, because a lot of the women that I mentor.

They have these situations and I'll say, well, here's how I think you should address this, or Here's how I would address it. And you see their face light up and go, oh wow, that's not that hard and I feel like I can do this, right? Mm-hmm. They feel relief that this is easy enough to, I, I feel like I can address it the way you said to address it.

[00:21:42] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm, 

[00:21:42] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: nice. And they feel that relief and that was part of my reasons for creating the book. 

[00:21:48] Penny Fitzgerald: That's great. And, and that language, it's important to practice it outside of the situation so it becomes easy to say 

[00:21:55] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: yes. And I say that, yeah, I agree with you. Uh, you have to practice it. Mm-hmm. You have to be ready for it.

[00:22:00] You have, you know, it's, part of it is seeing it and seeing how it shows up. These biases show up at work. Mm-hmm. So that's part of the book too. It's like, I want you to see when and where this shows up, how it shows up for you. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes it's so subtle you don't recognize it. And then when you are able now, 'cause you're aware of it, you're able to recognize it.

Here's the words to use. 

[00:22:24] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Do you have an example of, of, um, a situation where you re you witnessed this kind of thing? 

[00:22:31] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Oh, it's all the time. Um, so I'll give you an example. There was one woman who is an executive actually, and she was, she knew her department. So well. 

[00:22:43] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Ask 

[00:22:44] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: her question. She had the answer.

She had data to back it up. So smart, but they always talked over her in the meetings constantly, and I actually pulled her aside and said, I think you need to address this. 

[00:22:59] Penny Fitzgerald: [00:23:00] You were in the room too, you heard this happening? Oh, yeah. There 

[00:23:01] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: was a number of us in the room. Yeah. Okay. And it happened all the time.

Wow. And I said, I think you need to address this with our boss. 

[00:23:08] Penny Fitzgerald: Like, what would they say? Like what kind of things? Um, 

[00:23:10] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: well, they'd ask her question and she'd give the data like, okay, you know, 35% of whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, customers are not happy for this reason or whatever. It's mm-hmm. And then they would say, Hey, they'd go to the CFO or the product person and say, Hey, what do you think?

Like, just completely ignore. Oh, sometimes they would talk over her and not let her finish what she was saying and then go to the men in the room and have, 

[00:23:36] Penny Fitzgerald: oh my God. 

[00:23:37] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And so, and not the rest of us, just the men in the room. Okay. And I said, I think we need to address it. And she didn't.

And I could see. The conversation starting to happen where they didn't think she was good at her job and they let her go. They let her go. 

[00:23:55] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh my God. 

[00:23:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And she was good at her job. She was very good at her job. [00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. 

[00:24:00] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: But that's what happens if you don't address it. That's what could happen, I should say. 

[00:24:04] Penny Fitzgerald: Like a pack mentality almost.

Yes. Like get rid of the weakest. 

[00:24:09] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: But she wasn't weak. 

[00:24:10] Penny Fitzgerald: No, 

[00:24:11] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: she. Allowed the behavior, though it's not her fault, but she now, I would've addressed that easily. Mm-hmm. I have a different personality than she has though, too. Right. Um, yeah, she just, well, was a little bit more soft spoken, but I also think maybe she was just tired of it.

Yeah. And decided that maybe she didn't wanna be there anymore. I don't know. Um, but she did not address it, and I, and you just started to see how they. Would do it more frequently. They would just want the data from her, but then go have the conversation with the guys. 

[00:24:48] Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. I'm thinking back to my own experience, um, in a warehouse, and so mostly men male managers, and again, they were great guys, but they just didn't get it. [00:25:00] You know, it was just a male dominated industry.

Our boss, we had a new general manager and we were all sitting around the table. There was maybe one other woman in the room and the rest were men. And our boss, he would, you know, kind of talk over and he was just, he was very, um, a much different culture. He came in, we were in Iowa and he came in from, um, like the Boston area, I think.

Yep. And just, you know, whole, whole different cul culture. And I was so young and not, um, not wise. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, but just said, dude, we're in the room. You know? Right. I mean, I just called him out on something and then everybody kinda snickered. And he never did it again.

You know, I mean, he, he, I think I got his respect for standing up to him, but yes. Would I do it the same way now? No. Right. 

[00:25:53] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. But I, it, I think, I, I think because I have spoken up always, you know? 

[00:25:59] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:59] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Not [00:26:00] always, but as I've gotten older, more professional manner, probably not when I was younger, who knows what I said?

But, um, I think they do respect that. Yeah, they do respect that you have an opinion because you know, you think about for me, for CEOs or Right, well, whoever your leader is. You know, some people just want yes people, right? They want them to do what they tell them to do, but they get tired of that too. Then they say if they have to, it doesn't work.

Yes. If I have to keep telling you what to do. Then you're not valuable. Right, right. So it can backfire. 

[00:26:33] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:34] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, and I think they do appreciate, they may not appreciate everything you say or how you say it, or they may not agree, but I think they appreciate that you have an opinion and you're trying to help move the business forward.

Right? 

[00:26:45] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and just hearing some, some of the, um, the ones who don't care, I was on an. Very similar situation where you're the person in the middle and you have an account that you're managing the, the client, and then you have [00:27:00] the, the people internally that you're translating to and back and forth and getting a call from one of the clients, a male, and just, he just went off.

Mm-hmm. And it was very a personal attack, right. On something that was, his fault and. I'm, I'm protecting my team from that, but taking it all myself, you know? Um, he wouldn't talk like that to the male counterparts on the team. Of course not.

Yeah, of course. That just, that the tolerance of that kind of behavior just can't, you can't let that happen. 

[00:27:36] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: No. You're right. Sometimes they say things to women that they wouldn't say to men. 

[00:27:41] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:42] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And I have said to people, would you say that to a man?

I will. Oh.Depends on who it is and where, what the situation is. But I will say, now, would you have said that to a man? 

 Very good question. Sometimes you have to be bold. Not always. Yeah. You have to be careful. Right. But especially the young, [00:28:00] you know, people are new in their careers. You have to be careful.

You probably have a lot more financial responsibilities as we age. You know, we're more set financially. Right. Those are things I always tell people that I mentor. 

[00:28:11] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:12] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Think about your financial stability first. Hmm. Right. Certainly your mental health and emotional health. If it's too much, then you have to figure things out, but mm-hmm.

Think about your financial stability too. 

 how do you stand up and say some of these things? Or what, what's a first step for someone? If, if you're talking with someone, a woman who's in a situation where, look, I think this is happening, or they feel uncomfortable at work, or they're not sure how to forward their career, how do you work with them? Um, yeah, I, every situation is a bit unique, right? Yeah. And the person's unique, but it is, again, I think they have to have the awareness first, and then name what it is, name what it is to that person. 

[00:28:55] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: You, you're speaking over me, or you're [00:29:00] taking credit, you continue to take credit for ideas that I've taken, that I come up with, you have to name that.

[00:29:06] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:08] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Or you're being disrespectful when you say this. You have to make them aware of it Again, you can be polite, you can say that politely without emotion. Mm-hmm. But you have to name it. 

[00:29:20] Penny Fitzgerald: How would they, what? What words would they use? Like if you were role playing with me and saying, this is what you should say, how would you, what words would you use?

[00:29:31] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So if somebody for the situation that, that woman where she was being spoken over all the time 

[00:29:35] Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. 

[00:29:36] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I would've gone to my boss and said, Hey, in my next one-on-one, I said, Hey, you know, I wanted to, uh, talk to you about something that's really been concerning me. I've noticed that in meetings when you ask me a question, I start to answer.

You talk over me, and then you go ask John his opinion about it. Can you tell me why? 

[00:29:57] Penny Fitzgerald: I don't do that. 

[00:29:58] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: You know, or, and they say, [00:30:00] well, you do. And he, and I'll give examples, okay. Of what you do. Okay? And is it because I'm not giving enough information? Like, help me. I really wanna understand why that's happening, so we can improve this and address 

[00:30:14] Penny Fitzgerald: it.

We can love it, right? Mm-hmm. This is such a great conversation, a great thing for women to be aware of and language to use is so key and important. 'cause I feel like, and may, maybe I'm speaking outta turn here, because it's been a lot of years that's, I've been out of corporate for over 20 years.

Mm-hmm. But it feels, um, like a great. Practice for women to get into, to understand what's happening. Yes. To be able to step, take a step back and document what's happening. Always. So that you have that. Yeah. Always. Wow. And then to practice what to say. Mm-hmm. Because I, I feel like it. Back [00:31:00] in the day anyway, it became this, well, I didn't do that.

It's a lot of gaslighting or a lot of denial that Oh no, I would never, and most, most men that I worked with would never try to make a person feel that way. Anyone feel that? Right? Right. But we know what happens. Yes. And because there's been a bit of an awakening. A I gotta feel that now it's more prevalent if, if it's happening now that it's a choice.

Rather than it can be. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes, it can be. So there's people that feel privileged to be able to, they use, they use microaggressions. Right? They feel that they can say whatever they wanna say right now. Mm-hmm. Right. Wow. That's gonna happen. It can happen around race, it can happen around sex and gender.

Mm-hmm. Those situations can happen. I you still should address it, but you have to be safe depending if they're, if they're that type of micro aggressor that there's, there's two types of [00:32:00] micro aggressors. One is. They're intentional, they're doing it on purpose. Mm-hmm. They're using it as a microaggression.

'cause if they said, for example, a racial, a racist comment blatantly, they know they could potentially get in trouble. So they, they do it a different way. Right. They do it more subtle way with a microaggression. A joke or something like, oh, it was just a joke. You're, you're, you know, you're, you're lighten up, you're lighten up too sensitive, right?

Mm-hmm. And then there's the ones that say things and they really didn't, they're being, it's ignorance. They didn't realize that that would be offensive. So the ones where it's ignorance and they didn't realize it would be offensive, if it's someone you care about and you have to work with to say, Hey, that really hurt my feelings.

Here's why. Okay. Right? 

[00:32:43] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:43] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: For the ones who are doing it on purpose. I still would say to address it, this is what you said. Um, I was offended by that. I'd appreciate if you don't do it anymore. If you do, then we're gonna have to go to HR [00:33:00] and I would always document it because those people tend to keep doing it.

[00:33:03] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's testing the boundaries, right? It's like a toddler. It's very much 

[00:33:07] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: so 

[00:33:07] Penny Fitzgerald: testing 

[00:33:07] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: the boundaries, but you still have to address it. 'cause if you don't, they'll, they'll definitely keep doing it. Oh yeah. If you do address it, they may back off recognizing it's like a bully. Mm-hmm. If you stand up to a bully, they may back off because they know they can't bully you.

Yeah. Right. Right. It's similar. 

[00:33:26] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. And if they're doing it to you, if you've witnessed it, if you're feeling. grossed out about something. It's happening with other people too. That's right. Yes. Well, in a big corporation, I gotta believe. Why would HR not address that or want to address that? Because that then becomes a cultural issue within the company.

[00:33:48] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So what happens? some HR will, address it. Most have to legally, you have, depending on what it is, you legally have to address it if it goes to hr. 

[00:33:57] Penny Fitzgerald: Okay. 

[00:33:58] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: However, [00:34:00] what I say in the book and what I tell people is that HR is there for the business. They're not really there for you as much as they're supposed to be helping people.

[00:34:09] Penny Fitzgerald: They're there for the business and they have to walk that fine line, and there's great HR people out there for sure. Mm-hmm. But there's some that. Feel the own pressure of their job. And if, you know, there's an example in the book where there was this person who was more valued to the business than the woman who they were harassing.

[00:34:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I can't remember if it was a sexual harassment case. I think it was. 

[00:34:34] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh wow. So 

that person got a slap on the hand. They weren't getting rid of him because he is too val valuable to the company. And so HR isI'm sure they feel the pressure of that and they're told they can't do anything about it. Wow. 

[00:34:47] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So you, it's not that you shouldn't go to hr, you should go to hr, but you need to document everything. If something like that's happening, race racism or sexual harassment or something like that, you need to document that. 

[00:34:59] Penny Fitzgerald: I [00:35:00] feel that's, I hope that that is so shortsighted on the part of the company because that.

Then becomes a cultural thing that's a choice by the company. Yes. And that company then is choosing this behavior and this racism or sexism or whatever it is that they're allowing to continue. 

[00:35:17] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right. Then 

[00:35:17] Penny Fitzgerald: that's the culture of the company. 

[00:35:19] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. It does become the culture of the company. And then you get dismayed employees who are probably just as good as that one.

They valued so much and they leave. Yeah. Yeah. And companies get reputations. Oh, for sure. Glassdoor and Fishbowl. you know, their reputations are talked about. Um, yeah, but some don't care. Let's face it, some people don't care. They feel wow, empowered in this current atmosphere.

And atmosphere. 

[00:35:49] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:49] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, so you just, there are companies out there that do care and so sometimes the answer is you have to leave. Sometimes you can't [00:36:00] always stay. You may have to leave and find a culture that works for you, 

[00:36:04] Penny Fitzgerald: right? Well, and eventually I gotta believethat's not gonna work long-term.

That company cannot stay profitable. If that's your culture, if that's your choice, then that's not gonna cultivate profits and longevity. 

[00:36:21] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: They may be successful, but they're probably not gonna be as successful because they now are creating an environment where they only want certain people in there. And then you're, but the world is diverse, right?

[00:36:34] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:35] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yeah. Right. There's women in the world. They have women who have children they want mm-hmm. Products that. Relate to their needs. 

[00:36:44] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:36:44] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Same with different cultures. And so you're as a business, yeah, you're, you're hurting yourself, I think. 

[00:36:50] Penny Fitzgerald: Crappy people create crappy services and products, you know?

Sure. It's just not long. It's not a long-term strategy. No. If this is what you're choosing [00:37:00] today, 

[00:37:00] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: right. 

[00:37:00] Penny Fitzgerald: You're not gonna be around very long. 

[00:37:02] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And especially nowadays, and people are very socially conscious. Right. So they And savvy. Yeah. And they wanna buy from companies who share their values. 

[00:37:11] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yeah.

Who are good people. 

[00:37:14] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Right. 

[00:37:17] Penny Fitzgerald: And you may not know, I mean, some of these big companies, you don't necessarily know who's behind it, but it trickles down and there's a feeling you get there Are there are there's evidence to show, are you doing good in this world or are you just trying to make a profit and trying to grab every dollar you can get?

Right. What's important to you? Yes. People or profits. 

[00:37:35] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Yeah. And it does become apparent. 

[00:37:39] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So what, what are some other truths in your book or some other language that you would recommend that women, um, pay attention to or start practicing? 

[00:37:50] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I think the big thing is, um, what we said, just being spoken over in the rooms.

Mm-hmm. Some of it, some of these things are very subtle, like [00:38:00] credibility. Men have credibility immediately. We have to earn our credibility. We talked about the maternal. Women with children. Mm-hmm. And then there's another one I think is not being visionary or strategic. So we are typically viewed as getting things done.

[00:38:21] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And we get on those projects to get things done, and we may think that's the greatest thing in the world. Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:27] Penny Fitzgerald: But the 

[00:38:28] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: reality is they're not putting you on strategic initiatives. 

[00:38:34] Penny Fitzgerald: Interesting. Which is where a 

[00:38:35] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: lot of the promotions come from. Right? Right. It's strategic. Mm-hmm. I've heard so many times that people have said to women, and, and even to me, well, you're not strategic enough.

You're not allowing me to be strategic. You're not valued my, my strategic skills. And so I think in that regard, that is a huge bias against women. And the best way I think to [00:39:00] combat that is to show value. In what you're doing, making sure that whatever your role is in the company, it is aligned with the business objectives, right.

Of the company. Ah-huh. So that you are viewed as helping move the company forward, Uhhuh, in what you're doing. And the second part, which women don't always do well is promoting your suc, promoting what you're doing in your success, kind of. 

[00:39:26] Penny Fitzgerald: 

[00:39:26] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: You know, tooting your own horn, as they say. We don't typically do that as women.

We don't, we just go, we don't, and do the work. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to. You have to make what you're doing visible to your boss. If it's a weekly status report or talking to them about what you're doing mm-hmm. In your one-on-one, or suggesting that you get to the leadership meeting so you can show this project that you've been working on that's bringing in X number of, of dollars or helping maintain helping retain customers.

So mm-hmm. Tying what you're doing to a business objective and [00:40:00] speaking about it in those terms is that's what helps you get over. Some of that bias. 

[00:40:07] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. I, I love the idea of the weekly status report, because that documents what you've done. It puts numbers to it, it adds data. Right. And then you have a record.

Yes. Wow. Look at all the things that, I mean, so many of us, we go through, you know, we put one foot in front of the other, you keep doing your thing. Right. And then when it comes time for reviews, you look back and go, what did I do? What did I 

[00:40:27] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: do? 

[00:40:27] Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

[00:40:27] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yeah. And a lot of times we're just doing the little thing.

Yeah. You can't, you wanna have some big things that you're doing, right? Mm-hmm. That's, that's the showing the value part. Mm-hmm. Something that's driving the business forward, because otherwise you can get stuck in doing into the minutia of these 

[00:40:43] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah. 

[00:40:43] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: These tasks, we can all do it. I have to remind myself, wait a minute, what, what am I trying to accomplish here for the, for the company?

I have to remind, that's the big 

[00:40:51] Penny Fitzgerald: picture, 

[00:40:52] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: right? 

[00:40:52] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And how Yeah. Well, and 

[00:40:54] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: as drive that forward. 

[00:40:56] Penny Fitzgerald: As a new, maybe you're a new manager or you're middle [00:41:00] management, you're just, you're starting your career or in the middle of your career, When you're at that level, you don't necessarily know the objectives of the company.

How do you educate yourself on that? If you're in a company and you're trying to build your career, where would you start? 

[00:41:16] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I would, so the, one of the big things that we can do as women to, um, combat bias is building strong relationships, one-on-one with people in the company collaborating across different departments, building relationships, right?

[00:41:30] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:31] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Finding a mentor, someone who might be a level higher. And so if you had that as a younger person, you could go to them and say, look, I'm, I'm, I wanna make sure my department is aligned with the business strategies. What are they? Right? Mm-hmm. What, do you know what the business objectives are, or who can I talk to that can share the business objectives?

Hopefully most companies will share them, but not all of 'em do. 

[00:41:54] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Um, 

[00:41:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: so trying to figure out what those are, and then having somebody, an [00:42:00] ally that you have, who again, has a little bit more experience in you to help you tie those business objectives to what you're doing with your department.

[00:42:08] Penny Fitzgerald: I love that. How do you foster those relationships with that person that's a step above, like that next step where you're trying to go? How do you recommend someone start fostering a relationship like that? 

[00:42:21] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So, when I come into a company, I speak to a lot of people. Uh, at every level I will. Ask for a one-on-one or you know, I just a meet and greet and just to get to know them.

And I maintain that anytime I have a question or I think that they can help me and I help them if they need anything from me. And I always say, if you need anything from my department or me, just gimme a call. And I try and stay in touch with. A lot of different people in the organization. And again, at every level.

And part of that as an executive, I wanna make sure all levels feel heard, right? Mm. 

[00:42:57] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:57] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, and it doesn't, and it's not just my [00:43:00] department. I do it across, but I think as a young person coming in, your internal network is critical. 

[00:43:06] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And you 

[00:43:07] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: have to remember that and building those rapport with each other and, and just having conversations where you start to get to know each other personally.

Makes a huge difference. 

[00:43:17] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:43:17] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And it also combats bias, right? Mm-hmm. So if some, if you're speaking to a, a man and they're getting to know you, they might not think that you don't care about your career 'cause you care about your 'cause because you have children. If they know that you're, you're talking to them all the time about business, that helps combat that bias right there.

Mm-hmm. Or if they know that you are discussing strategic things with them. Then that combats that, and then they will speak up for you when they're in the room and you're not in the room. 

[00:43:49] Penny Fitzgerald: right. Because their experience with you is different than Yes. Their preconceived notion. 

[00:43:54] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: That's what you're trying and that's exactly what you're trying to do with these relationships, and you can't do your job alone.

And [00:44:00] I, I tell marketing teams that all the time we're, we can't work in a, in a, in a silo. Like we have to work with a lot. And marketing has to work with a lot of different departments, like almost all in the company. Oh yeah. Right?That's something I teach and you go find somebody at your level in that department and then even higher in that department, in those different departments and start building relationships with them.

[00:44:21] Penny Fitzgerald: This is really valuable for a, a young person, especially I feel like a young woman coming into their career or wanting to build, um, yes. Corporately. Mm-hmm. And I feel it's a lot, you know, because so many of us. Pounded our head against the wall for a long time. Corporate. Yes. Yeah. It's just, yeah.

The, the system we we're built to network, the way that we relate with people our, the way that our souls align with what we're doing, with our purpose, our passion, right? So many of us have broken out of corporate to go do our own thing. Yes. To start something new. And we come with all this experience from corporate, most of us.[00:45:00] 

So it's, it's great. And I, I feel, um, yeah, there's room for, for both sides. You can, you know, like you were saying, if someone is building a corporate career, that's great. Yes. If they're a founder of their own thing, that's great. You know, whatever your choice is is, is amazing. Right. But I can see why, um, how this is super valuable.

Especially for your mi, you know, the people coming into it, the, the middle managers, the new right people outta college, the women outta college, just building new things. But even 

[00:45:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: leaders as I, you know, I, the example I gave you was an executive. She was an executive. Yeah. So some executives, they don't know how to navigate these situations either.

So I think it's from leaders as well and, and building relationships at a leadership level when you're at the leadership level is critical. Right.Women don't get the same support and guidance in business in their careers as the men do. Their networks are more natural. They have conversations, you know, in the hallway, or they go out for [00:46:00] drinks and they go play golf.

My way of going around that was having these one-on-one relationships. Mm-hmm. I built it that way and I found it. It was, I think it was a better approach because I got to know people more. Uh, yeah. Right. More deeply. And even for leaders, they, you have to maintain that. You have to build those relationships.

You have to show value. You have to maintain your profession and keep up with your profession. So it doesn't matter what level you're at, you have to do those things. Mm-hmm. To be successful. Yeah. 

[00:46:31] Penny Fitzgerald: It, it's the entire reason why I picked up golf. Yes, 

[00:46:35] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: exactly. 

[00:46:36] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Right. Because that's what we were taught. I was the one, I was the one back in the office doing all the work while the guys were networking and building their careers, um, on the golf course.

Yeah. Right. 

[00:46:45] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And getting the better the, getting the more visible assignments. 

[00:46:48] Penny Fitzgerald: Right, right, right. When I was doing 

[00:46:49] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: their work back at the office. Exactly. 

[00:46:52] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. That's why I started, that's why I started to golf. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So valuable [00:47:00] and just, Ugh, annoying. Yes. 

[00:47:03] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And common stories. And common patterns.

Right, 

[00:47:06] Penny Fitzgerald: right. Right. And do you feel it's still, like how recent was the example that you gave of the executive that was being talked over? 

[00:47:16] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Um, three years ago. Wow. Still happens. 

[00:47:20] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:47:22] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I mean, as I said, in the company I was in, there were four female executives. Three at first, and then four. 

[00:47:29] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: That was the first time in my career, but it gave me hope.

[00:47:33] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah, 

[00:47:34] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: yeah. Right. That there are we, there are people who will value women at that level. 

[00:47:39] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah, 

[00:47:40] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: exactly. It's not happening fast enough 

[00:47:42] Penny Fitzgerald: or enough. Mm-hmm. Wow. Here it is, 2025 and this is the conversation we're having. Right? Yeah. When more, when more of us are in executive positions. We can lift others up. So it's the glass ceiling thing, you know, just showing that is possible.

Showing how it can look. 

[00:47:58] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. 

[00:47:59] Penny Fitzgerald: Showing how we can [00:48:00] support each other and build, build an amazing company with a great culture that supports other people over. Yeah. 

[00:48:07] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: And we need male allies. I mean, and there are, there are de allies. Yeah. We need male allies. 'cause I don't think men recognize that. The men that I'm speaking to, they admit that. They don't understand the experience we have. Their experience going to work every day is very different than ours. 

[00:48:23] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah. Right? 

[00:48:24] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Mm-hmm. And they don't, they're not aware of that. And that's another thing with this book, I want men to read it 'cause I want them to be aware of what we're dealing with.

[00:48:32] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:33] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: On a daily basis. Yeah. We just wanna come to work and do our job just like it. Right. We just wanna come 

[00:48:40] Penny Fitzgerald: to 

[00:48:40] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: work and do 

[00:48:40] Penny Fitzgerald: our job. Just work together. I wanna do the, I wanna follow my passion. I wanna use my gifts. And contribute. 

[00:48:47] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right. Just like they do. Same thing. 

[00:48:49] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah, exactly. Is your book out? 

[00:48:52] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: It's out on November 5th.

[00:48:55] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, fun 

[00:48:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: it's print on demand and it's, it'll be on Amazon, 

[00:48:59] Penny Fitzgerald: I'll make sure [00:49:00] that this, that's in the show notes so people can find it, 

That would be great. That's amazing. Okay, so can I switch gears on you? Yes, of course. Wonderful. At the end of every conversation, I love to bring it around to something super fun. Mm-hmm. Like what's your favorite cocktail? 

[00:49:14] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: So I prefer mocktails over cocktails. Okay. Okay. Nothing wrong with that, but thankfully they're.

There's a lot more mocktails available Yes. Ever. Um, that's becoming a 

[00:49:24] Penny Fitzgerald: thing. 

[00:49:25] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: It is becoming a thing. It's, uh, pretty exciting actually. Um, I went to a thing here where I live and it was only mocktails and it was very cool. Wow. And you know, at a restaurant, they did it kind of in the winter. It was really fun.

Um, so my favorite mocktail is typically a combination of lavender and elder flour with like a sparkling water or something. 

[00:49:47] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, I just got goosebumps. 

[00:49:48] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I love those. I really love those. And lavender. 

[00:49:53] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yes. A little floral and 

[00:49:56] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: yeah. Now I know there's. Gin drinks that have [00:50:00] those in too, typically, yes. Um, this one is without gin.

My wheels were turning. Yes, yes. But yeah, it could, you could mix it in a gin drink. That would be great. Yeah. But, um, yeah, this is, do you 

[00:50:10] Penny Fitzgerald: add Le Lemon to that? Have you ever le added a list? Yes. Fruits of lemon, lemon, lemon too. Mm-hmm. I think that would be lovely. That would be good. Yeah. Nice. Okay, so what's a fun conversation?

[00:50:21] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: I mean, we, because we talk about careers when we get together too, but what's a fun conversation with girlfriends? Um, my most fun conversation is, um, with girlfriends or even my sisters who are my best friends and my nieces Yes. Is um, we talk a lot about books we've read or movies.

Yeah. Watched and uhhuh. Um, I love that 'cause I read a lot. So yeah. Having those conversations and then, you know, sometimes if we're hiking or on the beach, it's. We talk about what's ever going on. You know what I mean? It's mm-hmm. A mom and they wanna talk about the being a mom and working or um, art or whatever's on our minds at [00:51:00] the time.

Yeah. Right. Um, I just love when women are together and we ha we have those unique moments to share experiences that maybe our husbands or partners or wouldn't necessarily. Relate to, right? 

[00:51:16] Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I feel like it's easy. It's easy to talk with our girlfriends and our sisters and aunts 

and nieces. Yeah. About things. It just feels like when you're, when you get back together, even if you've been apart for a while, it just Yes. Flows naturally. 

[00:51:31] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Right? Yeah. And I love that, you know, I have best friends that I've had since I was, you know, we were in grade school. Yeah.

And just being able to. Have those conversations, and it's nice to know somebody for that long as well. Right. Because you can say whatever you wanna say and they have the context of your whole life. Right, right. To to advise. To advise you. 

 Yeah. Um, and I think as we age, our female [00:52:00] relationships, whatever they are, sisters, friends. Um, partners, whatever it is, um mm-hmm. They become more important 

[00:52:09] Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, yeah. 

[00:52:10] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: To us as we've aged.

And I noticed absolutely. Starting like in my 40, when I turned 40, like I just, my friends mattered so much more to me 

[00:52:19] Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

[00:52:19] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: In a deeper way, you know? Yeah. Than when you're younger. 

[00:52:23] Penny Fitzgerald: Absolutely. Well, when you're, when we're younger. If you're not raising kids, you're building your career or both Yes. At the same time.

Yeah. You know, you're, you're do, you're putting one foot in front of the other in that, in those twenties and thirties, I feel like. Yes. When, and look back. Mm-hmm. It's like I just kept going and now I choose who I spend time with now instead of.

[00:52:44] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. We value that time more. Um, yes. Right, because we know that it's, we don't have forever, I think is part of it, right? Yeah. Time's a ticking. Yeah. Um, and yes, you're right. When as I say to my nieces, they're in the building stages of their, they're [00:53:00] building everything. They're building their career, they're building their family, they're building their relationship.

They may be building a household like you're building, building, building, all the things. You're just so exhausted and, and, yeah. You know, but as we get through that. Now you start to enjoy, you, you, you reap the benefits of all that. 

[00:53:16] Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

[00:53:17] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: That you've built. Right. 

[00:53:19] Penny Fitzgerald: Exactly. Oh, wow. Kae. This has been amazing.

[00:53:23] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. I've enjoyed the conversation 

[00:53:24] Penny Fitzgerald: so 

[00:53:25] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: much. 

[00:53:25] Penny Fitzgerald: Thank you so much for your wisdom and your advice, the stories. 

[00:53:30] Kae Kronthaler-Williams: Yes. Thank you. Thanks for having me on the, on your podcast, Penny. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, and I enjoyed the conversation as well. 

[00:53:39] Penny Fitzgerald: Wonderful. You have a fabulous rest of your day. Thank you.

You too. Alright, thanks. Thanks. Bye. Bye.