You Don’t Need Consensus to Lead—You Need Clarity

If you’ve ever felt like you know what good leadership looks like—but still catch yourself waiting for agreement, approval, or buy-in—this episode will feel like permission you didn’t know you needed.

I’m joined by Tami Reiss (aka Tami from Miami), and this conversation beautifully reinforces what I teach again and again: you don’t need consensus to lead—you need clarity.

This isn’t about becoming more forceful, louder, or more “corporate.” It’s about trusting your instincts, making clean decisions, and leading in a way that feels aligned instead of exhausting. Tami brings powerful frameworks and real-world examples that put structure around what so many women already feel but haven’t been taught how to articulate.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why waiting for consensus slows momentum and drains confidence
• How clarity is actually an act of kindness in leadership
• The difference between delegating tasks and truly deputizing people
• Why influence has nothing to do with convincing—and everything to do with empathy
• How to lead without people-pleasing, over-explaining, or burning out

Key Topics:

• Authentic leadership
• Influence-driven leadership
• Decision-making with confidence
• Service over sales
• Women in leadership and entrepreneurship
• Clarity, boundaries, and trust

If you’re a woman who’s tired of over-collaborating, second-guessing, or carrying the emotional weight of everyone else’s comfort—this episode is a deep exhale and a reminder: you already know how to lead.

Free Influence Framework + MAP Worksheet
👉 https://tamireiss.com/influence

Tami’s Website / Home Base
👉 https://tamireiss.com

Tami on LinkedIN 👉 https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamireiss/

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Transcript

You Don’t Need Consensus to Lead—You Need Clarity 

If you've ever felt like you've known what good leadership looks like. but needed reassurance that you're not imagining it? This episode is for you. My guest today, Tami Reiss, also known as Tami from Miami, puts language and structure around ideas I talk about often: Authenticity over authority. clarity over consensus, and serving people instead of selling to them. This conversation isn't about reinventing [00:01:00] leadership. It's about trusting what you already know, owning your voice, and leading in a way that feels aligned instead of exhausting. You're gonna love this one. Here is Tami Reiss. 

Tami Reiss: Good morning. Good morning. I was just grabbing a copy of my book in case I decided I needed a prop. Oh, wonderful. Yes. 

Penny Fitzgerald: We'll get to that. I'm so excited to talk to you and hear all about it. 

Tami Reiss: Nice to chat with you. Also, I have a compass. A compass. Long story. Well, maybe we'll talk about it. 

oh, props. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I love props.

Tami Reiss: Where are you based, Penny? I 

Penny Fitzgerald: am in, um, Sarasota. Currently. You're in Miami, right? Where you're, yeah. Is that, um, well, we have a home in Iowa. As well. 

Tami Reiss: I was just 

Penny Fitzgerald: learning about Pella recently. Oh my God. I went to college in Pella.

Central College. There you go. Yeah, there you go. Flying Dutchman, marching band. 

Tami Reiss: [00:02:00] Amazing. So I, I was at a conference and there was a woman who works, actually works for Pella, like the Windows the window company. Uhhuh. Yeah. And so she lives in Iowa and on her property, which is I think closer to the quad cities.

Okay. Um, she has like, I, not a glamping setup, but a whole like guest house and like this thing I was like, well. We always go to Omaha in May. Maybe we'll drive across the state and why not and hang out in Iowa for a day or two. Yes. So yeah, I'm, I'm not your average east coaster when it comes to geography of the country.

Penny Fitzgerald: That's very cool. Yeah. 

Well tell, tell for my audience's benefit and Me too. Um, sure. Tell us a little bit about you, what you do, and I, I, I, you know, kind of stalked you a little bit beforehand, but, but, but yes.

Tell us all about you. What your, your business and you work with corporate clients. Prim primarily, or, um, 

Tami Reiss: [00:03:00] I, I work with a whole bunch of different people. Mm-hmm. Generally, a large portion of my clients are corporations that hire me to do training in influence driven leadership. Mm-hmm. Uh, as well as there are some executives that I've worked with for a long time as their coach, again, how to be a better influence driven leader.

And then there are also, um, associations. That I work with, work to train their members, because if you join an association, it's not only for networking, it's also for professional development. Mm-hmm. And so I help out surgeon associations with that stuff. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Nice. Okay. So, and it's mostly you, you have, you have created a couple of different, well, several different, um, protocols or systems to frameworks.

Frameworks. Thank you. Words are hard this morning. Nice framework. So you have a map system and, and a, um, lead framework as well. Right. Can you tell us about that a little bit? Sure. 

Tami Reiss: So LEAD was created [00:04:00] first and I was trying to crystallize on the behaviors 'cause I'm very behavior driven and action driven, uh, the behaviors of exceptional leaders.

There's a lot written in stories, but I, I like to distill things into bite-size pieces and so that's good. Lead, LEAD, Uhhuh are the behaviors that are associated with exceptional leaders and so that when I teach it, it's like this much longer multi-session course 'cause it's a leadership development course, right?

Uhhuh and we talk about L, which is look and leap, look towards the future, set a vision, and then leap. Be willing to take risks. Mm. Mm-hmm. E, which is excite and empower. A lot of people talk about empower, but they forget about the emotional side of working with people, humans, uhhuh, and we need to get them excited by helping them feel connected to what they're doing.

A [00:05:00] is for align and activate. This, again, is something people forget, but the really strong leaders don't, and that is, yes, you must get everyone aligned and heading in the same direction, but. You don't have to do it alone. And you should be activating your supporters along the way using the social capital and trust you've established so that they can leverage their own trust and social capital.

Yes. Within their sphere of influence and have ripple effects. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And so that's what that one's about. And then D is for decide and deputize, we cannot. Cannot handle indecisive leaders. Like that's, that one speaks, and I have frameworks that help people decide things faster. But if you are a leader, you have to take that responsibility seriously.

You cannot make people wait too long for a decision. And Deputize is a stronger version of delegate. Delegate is when you ask someone else [00:06:00] to do something. You 

Penny Fitzgerald: tell 

Tami Reiss: someone else to do something, but when you deputize someone, you give them ownership. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. You say, 

Tami Reiss: you are now in charge of this. You are representing me in that room.

You have enough understanding of the way I think about things, that I don't need to be there and I trust you and I'm deputizing you so that other people who trust me. Trust you in return, right? I'm sharing my trust bank with you. I've trained you in how to do this. We've gone through many cycles together, and now you own this.

Wow. And leaders understand the difference between delegation and deputizing. And so that's what Lead is about. Okay. Uh, and that's like a multi-session program I do for corporations in leadership development. I'm contemplating actually creating one, uh, that people can, you know, sign up for themselves. Uh, Uhhuh, it'll probably a female cohort 'cause I think not enough [00:07:00] women have mentors that can.

They do these things, but they aren't necessarily aware of what they're doing or how it could be repeated by somebody else, or what are the parts of it that are the core of it so that somebody else, this new emerging leader 

Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. Can make it 

Tami Reiss: their own. Can have it be their authentic leadership self, that they're not copying someone, they're transforming that behavior into the way they're going to do it.

Uh, so we'll see what happens with that. And then the MAP framework is much more universal. But keep talking, asking the question 

Penny Fitzgerald: before we, I'm sorry. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna circle back and clarify. I my favorite libation now. Oh, I, I love Coke Zero. Okay. Side note. It. Coke Zero. Changed again. What? Or well, well, like well yell a year ago.

It's a little different. Yeah. Yeah. It tasted, I liked the old one 

Tami Reiss: [00:08:00] better. Yeah, me too. Oh, it tastes more like Diet Coke now. It does, and I don't like it as well as it, 

Penny Fitzgerald: yeah. Mm-hmm. Have you 

Tami Reiss: tried Dr. Pepper? Zero. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I recently discovered this. Yes. 

Tami Reiss: Game changing, right? Like, like if you like diet soda and you ever liked, if you don't mind, the flavor of pepper, like the Dr.

Pepper, like family. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Pepper zero is just so yum. Yeah. It's, 

Penny Fitzgerald: it has less of that fakey, sugary taste. Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. Like there's something about like the, the sting from the pepper that they, yeah. Agree. Okay. Totally agree. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Sorry, had to, I had to digress there first. No. Good, good, 

Tami Reiss: good sidetrack. Good sidetrack.

Um, I'm just gonna grab also some water. I seem to eat. Oh, yes, 

Penny Fitzgerald: absolutely. 

Tami Reiss: A little 

Penny Fitzgerald: partial. I, I wanna go back to your, um, the leadership, um, the lead framework that you had the d decide. I think a lot of women, we try and get buy-in [00:09:00] or we try and get, um. Collaboration and maybe too much.

So sometimes if you're in a leadership role, you want your team to buy in. Yeah. You have to decide to lead. You know, not everybody's gonna agree with you and 

Tami Reiss: yeah. So part of when I talk about activating your supporters and aligning people Yeah. I actually talk about electoral politics and how you don't need everyone to agree.

You just need a majority. Mm-hmm. And how can you use that within your own business or personal life to gain influence. Mm-hmm. And so 100% agree with you. You don't need consensus of a hundred percent. It's never gonna happen and it's not worth your energy. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Um, but you said something that triggered something else for me.

Decisions. Oh yeah. Did anyone, um, ever, uh, explained the etymology of the word decide on the show? I don't think so. So think of other words that end inside pesticide, herbicide "cide" needs to kill. [00:10:00] Oh, and I never, never thought of this.

You're, when you're deciding this was, I learned this like a year and a half ago, and I was like, that is the coolest thing I have ever learned. So when we decide something like from the Greek, it's, you're killing ambiguity and uncertainty. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I love it. 

Tami Reiss: Right? Yes. And so. You have to think about it as not I'm causing conflict, but I'm making it more clear for my team what their actions should be.

Yes. And I mentioned you, I have a, I have a Compass, so yes, this is my, um, oh, upside down leader within Compass. There we go. So leader within is my brand, 'cause I believe there's a leader within everyone. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Um, 

Tami Reiss: and I'm gonna help you get it out. I'm gonna help you unleash it. But my belief is that leaders provide guidelines.

Make these decisions and set a vision, et cetera, and that becomes a compass for people. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And with a [00:11:00] compass, it's a tool they still have to make their decision about going right or left, but you're providing them something that's in their pocket that they can pull out at any moment that they can say, what would my boss do?

What would my boss want me to do? What is aligned with where we're trying to go as a group, as a team, as a company, and, and, and that's why I hand out compasses. 'cause I want people to remember that as a leader, that is our role to be guidance, to provide these hallmarks and touch points that allow other people to do things.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yeah. Not to micromanage but to lead. To be the map. To provide the map. Yeah. To lead the way. Show how it's done. 

Tami Reiss: Yes. Um, someone I was listening to someone else talk recently and so we'll get MAP framework out of here. Also, they said a pic. We all have heard that a [00:12:00] picture is worth a thousand words. A map is worth a thousand pictures.

Ah, brilliant. Because it has so much more depth. And I happen to love maps, like I collect antique maps. Yeah. And they show history. They show movement, they tell stories. They help you understand the interactions and connections between different things. And a map is a present, it's such a gift. And if you as a leader are providing things like maps and compasses for your team, mm-hmm.

It allows for them to have more flexibility in where they operate and that actually yields innovation and creativity in ways you couldn't otherwise. I used to talk about, 'cause I, I worked in product management for so long, we have this concept called a roadmap. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Like you, you draw your roadmap and that's where you're gonna go.

And it never is exactly what happens. Yeah. It never is exactly [00:13:00] what happens. And I have this idea that instead we should call it a flight plan. There's gonna be turbulence along the way, but what's most important is that you make it from Sarasota to Des Moines. Yeah. And sometimes you have to stop in the middle 'cause you ran outta gas or something's wrong.

But as long as you get back up there mm-hmm. And you know what your end destination is, you've got hope. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Well, and the the other thing that occurs to me too, with the map, yeah. You have the roadmap of where you're going. But if you pull out and have that bird's eye view, it's a lot easier to get perspective and see how these things are supposed to work together and how, how it's gonna happen.

Tami Reiss: Yeah. And where you came from. Yeah. And all the other players involved. So many of us forget the concept of complexity theory, which is that there are 1,000,001 things that happen to make this moment right now possible. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And if anything was different with what's going on here, everything that would happen, [00:14:00] like the butterfly effect.

Mm-hmm. But we are taught cause and effect. I do something and then this next thing happens. And it's a domino. It doesn't work like that. The stars need to align and we need to recognize both our lack of control in what we have control over, which is the way we show up and the way we choose to invest our energy.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And 

Tami Reiss: that some things are gonna happen and they're not gonna be what we want. But if we have a longer term vantage point and we're looking more towards a bigger picture of the future, the little bumps along the way don't feel as bad They aren't as shifting, you know, like they don't throw you off as much.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. You know, I was just talking with another brilliant woman yesterday 

Tami Reiss: about, um, must be so lovely to talk to so many brilliant women. 

Penny Fitzgerald: It's fantastic. Oh my gosh, I learn so much. [00:15:00] And just to hear all the ideas and the, the support, the collaboration, it's just, uh, amazing and I just love it so much.

But yeah, it was yesterday I was talking with someone about, um. The difference between, you know, the corporate world As it's been, you know, very patriarchal. Um, men do things just differently than we do. Their cycle is different. We just are not in the same rhythm. Women, I think, tend to collaborate more and it's, you know, to step into leadership, to step into a role in our own way, and that's in alignment with our souls and what's important to us and to our values.

It's so important to, to know these, this framework that you're teaching. Yeah. So that you are, you know, you have the decisions and, and rather [00:16:00] than be, okay, what would this, what would a man do? No, no, no. You're a leader. You know, we are leaders. We, you know, stepping into that and owning it, I think is so cool to see women step into leadership roles in corporations.

Tami Reiss: Yeah. And so within that I mentioned authenticity earlier. Mm-hmm. I actually have an online course I've produced.

and we talk about the four A's of executive presence, it's called mastering Executive presence. Okay. And a number one is authenticity. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: A number two is awareness. You gotta be aware of what's going on in your environment, what's considered executive there, so that you can then figure out your authentic self.

There and then adaptability that you've cha you have to recognize that what may happen in your home is not what's going to happen when you're on stage is not what's going to happen when you're in a group setting of the executives is not what's gonna happen when you're leading a meeting of your peers or your [00:17:00] employees or anything else, right?

Mm-hmm. That understanding that you don't get to be exactly the same everywhere, and that you're gonna adapt. Who it is you are, who your tone of voice, how often you're talking versus letting other people talk based on the situation awareness that you've just created. Yeah. And then the last thing is authority.

You cannot be an executive or a leader without an understanding that you have to take authoritative stances. Sometimes not in a command and control way, but mm-hmm People are relying upon you to be the authority to be knowledgeable enough to make a decision when other people can't. And so that 

Penny Fitzgerald: agreed.

I love it with everything. The brilliant woman 

Tami Reiss: before me said, 

Penny Fitzgerald: yes, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I'm, I've seen a lot in the, the conversations that I've had. A lot of women who have been in corporate are just tired of it, try, tired of trying to fit in. So they start their own thing. They become founders, they become entrepreneurs and start a company of their own and lead the way in [00:18:00] that way, which is great.

I love it so much. Yes. Create new cultures and that's amazing. I, I, um, I have mixed emotions. Um, a little bit about it. Tell me more. And not, not because they're, you know, starting a new job I, or starting a new career or new business. I love that part of it, but how do we change the culture in corporate America if we leave?

You know, I feel like corp. Well, and maybe eventually the corporation, the bigger, so I can tell you. Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: That as somebody who's worked for like a big venture capital private equity mm-hmm. Company mm-hmm. That sometimes those really successful female led companies get mm-hmm. Purchased by the corporations and then they become business units.

And that woman who might've been a senior director within the corporate and kept hitting her head against a ceiling. Um-huh. Now she's CEO. And when they acquire her company, she's brought [00:19:00] in as a lead executive Uhhuh. And she can then talk with the other executives from a point of deference to her 'cause of her success.

Uhhuh in an area that they should have been successful themselves, but they had to buy another company to do. Yeah. And maybe learn a thing or two. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Okay, love that. But we need more strength. I love that. 

Tami Reiss: We need more strength of the success. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yes. Yeah. And I, okay. I'm, I'm glad to hear it works that way. I don't sometimes Exactly, because in my mind, immediately went to when they purchase that company.

Then do they ruin it? Do they wreck it? I 

Tami Reiss: mean, sometimes yes, sometimes no. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. I mean like anything else, right? Merger and 

Tami Reiss: acquisitions is a whole other topic. 

Penny Fitzgerald: We'll save that for another day. 

Tami Reiss: Sounds great. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Okay. 

Tami Reiss: But we should talk map. We haven't gone through a topic. Yes, yes, please. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I want everyone, especially women, to learn how to sell.[00:20:00] 

I call it pitching because selling has this dirty connotation. Yes. But it shouldn't. No, because we all sell something and I say life is a pitch. Life's a pitch. You have to recognize that all day long you are pitching. People think. You are pitching your partner that you wanna take a certain flight or choose an upgrade.

You are pitching your kids if you have them, that they're gonna go to bed at a certain time or do their homework. You're pitching your parents about when they should come or not come. We call it negotiation sometime, but really we're pitching someone to come along with our idea. We're pitching our boss to give us a promotion.

We're pitching our. Employees to do a certain thing at a buy a certain time, and therefore if we can master selling, pitching, or all also known as influence, how do we influence other people to want to do something? Everything [00:21:00] in the world gets easier. Everything interesting. You feel like you have the tools.

To get where you wanna go to get someone else to help you get there. And so MAP map, 

Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: M is for manifest where you want to go, define success set goals, but I want you to really describe this future world and how you're interacting there with people. Who else is there? And have a full picture of this end destination that you're headed towards.

Then a assess, spend time cultivating relationships and building empathy for the other person. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Get to know them, get to know their goals, their incentives, what drives them. Mm 

Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: So m manifest a assess. We have our [00:22:00] side, we have their side, and now P Promote where you can go together.

Figure out where that Venn diagram meets between you and them and say, okay, if we take this action, we both win. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. Tami, this is so aligned. This is so aligned with, um, one of the things I teach or the basis of what I teach. Yeah. Stop selling. Start serving. Hmm, yeah. Is my, is one of my courses. And the kind of the basis of what I go into, it's so aligned because you're, you're, we're in that Venn diagram, that middle where we overlap, how can I serve you better?

Yeah. And it's all coming down to aligning with their needs and, 

Tami Reiss: and you're not gonna serve them in ways you wouldn't serve anyone else. No. But you have multi-facets to what you can do, right? Yes. Find your 

Penny Fitzgerald: people 

Tami Reiss: that manifest has a whole world of things that are happening. Mm-hmm. And that's why I want [00:23:00] you to build it out, because when you have those other details, you can see where there's overlap.

Yeah. When you think about it as just a single thing out there that you're trying to have to get people to do, to get people to agree to, it's so much harder. But when you're building a future where. Not only you are benefiting, you can figure out where other people are gonna get something out of it, how your future serves them too.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah, it's, it's not like, um, I have this one thing that I offer, so I'm gonna send it and I'm gonna spray and pray. Hope they come. Spray does 

Tami Reiss: not work. Um, no. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I love teaching people about this stuff, and one of the modalities I use is like a MythBuster sort of thing.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: And there are three myths to influence 

Penny Fitzgerald: Uhhuh. And 

Tami Reiss: [00:24:00] one of them happens to be that like you can, that there's a silver bullet pitch that you're just gonna give one pitch, you're gonna practice it like it's a TED talk, and you're gonna repeat it over and over and over again, and, and people are just gonna fall in line.

And the answer is no. Everyone needs their own personalized version of what this is, because everybody has different needs and everybody has different incentives, and everyone has different goals and visions. Mm-hmm. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And 

Tami Reiss: you need to invest the time to understand that and to personalize your message to that.

Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. How do you recommend people do that? Or where do they start? 

Tami Reiss: So the, the map framework, the A, the assess. Mm-hmm. It's a simple, um, framework, but I actually created like a workbook, uh, like a worksheet where there's, you have one box for your manifest where you write out your vision, your perfect day, the world you're trying to create.

Mm-hmm. And then there's individual rows [00:25:00] for each of the other people. And so visually you see there may be one of me, but there's many other perspectives. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Like, and each of these different groups and individuals has different perspectives that I need to better understand. And only after I assess can I then promote.

Right. Only after I better understand the way they wanna be served. As you said, can I then offer them something that serves them? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Serves their goals. And so that's, that's the way I do it. It's a free tool online, tamireiss.com/influence sort of thing. Awesome. Um, but it, um, I think that it, it starts with recognizing that people that we call stakeholders are people, they're coworkers, they're internal partners.

They're external partners, their customers. Mm-hmm. They're people. And [00:26:00] people all operate by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And we just like go back to Maslow's hierarchy needs and we start there again. People wanna feel fulfilled, people wanna feel safe. And so start with that and recognize that people are on the other side of these conversations.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: We have this whole drive towards AI and all of those things. And I say it's a fantastic tool. You know what you can use it for to better personalize your pitch. Train an AI with all the information you gather about different people and then say, I'd like to pitch Bob of this and let it spit it out to you.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: A personalized pitch based on what you've gathered about Bob or Barbara or Mary or Jenny. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. And 

Tami Reiss: it's personalization at scale. It takes a lot of work to do. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of work to just let these tools make it easier for you. 

Penny Fitzgerald: [00:27:00] Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. I, I'm thinking back to my corporate days and I was in, um, a sales support position and putting together the proposals and things and had we had AI back then, it would just make it so much easier.

Uh, 

Tami Reiss: so many things could be easier. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: And if you had a tool that made putting the proposal together faster, it wouldn't have eliminated your job. It would've given you more time. Oh, 

Penny Fitzgerald: absolutely. 

Tami Reiss: To invest in talking to a potential customer. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Right. And be, or to follow up with a proposal you sent three days ago.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. To, to be able to, um, to serve that customer and to know, I'm thinking, you know, a specific, um, situations where there was a team from the other, you know, we were a team. They were a team, we're coming together, we're, you know, what do you need? each person had a different set of needs, and who's the one that's gonna make the decision?

Well, you didn't always know that when you're sitting in a [00:28:00] meeting with a, two groups of people and. Being able to come together as a team and say, okay, Bob needs this, Sally needs this, Mary needs that. And then be able to put that information into chat, GPT or whatever tool you're using.

Yeah. And come together to serve all of them. 

Tami Reiss: or like, Hey. Chat, GPT or Claude, review this proposal and make sure. Mm-hmm. It talks enough about information security so that the CSO doesn't reject it, you know? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

Tami Reiss: Did I sprinkle in enough SOC two compliance buzz words? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Am I 

Tami Reiss: speaking their language?

Yeah. Am I speaking their language? Mm-hmm. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Wow. 

Tami Reiss: We have to recognize that they're a person. Yeah. And they wanna be met where they are. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: They don't wanna have to step out of their comfort zone to meet you. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, no, no, no, no. We are there [00:29:00] to serve. I mean, in sales, you're there to serve them, um, if you're, you know, they're the client.

But in, in general, just in human terms. I truly believe that the biggest gift we can give another human is to, to listen to them, to make them feel seen and heard, and to understand, to be understood. 

Tami Reiss: I was, I was explaining this to my husband yesterday because I was, he has a very good friend. He 

Penny Fitzgerald: wasn't listening again.

Tami Reiss: Well, it wasn't me. I was, I was, I was observing him, interact with somebody else. Okay. Very, very good friend from college who just is having like a recurrence of cancer. So there's a lot going on there. And this is a woman who's 45, so 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, no, I'm so sorry to hear that. Right. And 

Tami Reiss: she has a three-year-old at home.

Oh. And so they were talking about choosing schools and the, you know, the stresses of preschools and kindergartens or whatever, Uhhuh. And I said to him afterwards, I said, I know you [00:30:00] want to share your experiences as a way of helping your friend, but your experiences are unique and in reality. Your friend probably just wanted to be listened to.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And if you said, wow, that seems really tough, tell me more about that. Mm. We had similar experiences. I'd be happy to share them with you if you ever wanted to hear about them. Not telling them the story. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: And I, this comes from Brene Brown for me. Like Brene Brown has a very simple animated video about sympathy versus empathy.

I sent it to him again today. I find it to be the best way to explain this stuff. But this morning, a, a good friend of mine was texting me about some challenges she was having, you know, tax bills, whatever. And rather than I almost typed, it'll all be all right. Yeah. And instead I took a step back and I said, I'm sorry that this is triggering your anxiety.

I'm here to [00:31:00] listen whenever you want. Mm-hmm. And two minutes later she called and I sent him a screenshot of that and I said I wanted to do the thing where I was solving her problems and putting a bandaid on it, but in reality, she needed me to listen. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Because all of the rest of the stuff doesn't actually help.

And I can better help once I've listened. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Which is why executive presence like that, number two is awareness, right? And for map, it's a matter of assessing. Like you have to understand what's going on around you, who are the humans around you? What do they need? Mm-hmm. And then think about whether or not you are the right person to serve them or not.

Right. 'cause we talked earlier about like women trying to get consensus and this nature of activation and ripples sometimes, like when you go through this like assess long list of all the different personalities. Mm-hmm. The [00:32:00] person who should be delivering the message isn't you. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. Right. Right. 

Tami Reiss: Sometimes you have to find the other person that is aligned with you.

Mm-hmm. And activate them to talk to the people who are aligned with them. So that they can pitch it in their own way. 

Penny Fitzgerald: It's such a mature attitude because you, we, we don't wanna be uncomfortable and to, we would be more comfortable if we just said what we know, you know, if we just tried to make it better, if we just could.

Tell our story and you know, wrap our arms around in that way. But the way that they want to be served is you listening to them. Or it may be that, 

Tami Reiss: yeah, 

Penny Fitzgerald: that makes us uncomfortable so we don't do it 

Tami Reiss: because we're, we wanna do an action. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah, 

Tami Reiss: I mean this is the classic, like your husband wants to solve your problem, you just wanna be listened to [00:33:00] thing.

And our family is actually the reverse. Like we have quote unquote gender normative reversal there that I'm like the problem solver, right? Like, yeah. Uh, but I have to remind myself sometimes my husband just wants to be listened to. He just wants to complain, or I just wanna complain about my mother.

Right. Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. But also, and this is something I wish more women did, we have to own. Expressing what we want. So I mentioned executive presence. I, I do a women's group coaching for executive, um, within the product tech world for women in product. I lead a group coaching session for them and I was talking about executive presence and all the things, and one of the women.

My group who works in corporate America, big, like 40,000 person company, like big company. Mm-hmm. She said to me that at some point a boss had taught her. And so now I teach other people. 'cause I think it's a good idea that when you walk into this conversation with your boss, [00:34:00] the first thing you should do is explain to them what kind of feedback you're looking for.

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh. 

Tami Reiss: And I was like, that's brilliant. Mm-hmm. To just say, this is what I'm looking for right now. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Right. I'm looking for advice about who to go to. I'm looking for advice about how to improve the pitch. I'm looking for advice about what modality I should format this. Is it a PowerPoint? Is it a spreadsheet?

Right. All like be clear about what you want? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: It's a lot harder to be disappointed when someone, like when you're asking someone else to read between the lines. But when you start the conversation that way, they turn their brain on and have that lens working as a like, right. Hey, I'm not at the point where I'm looking for fine tuned graphic, um, feedback.

I'm looking for feedback about the overall story arc or whatever. Just mm-hmm. Be clear about what you want. 

Penny Fitzgerald: [00:35:00] Right. That's brave to do. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And kind because you're helping them help you. 

Tami Reiss: Yes. Um, so part of what I do every week is I put together a list of leadership and influence podcasts, other people, right?

Not Tami on 1800 podcast, but other people sharing great ideas and, um, I think her name is Dr. Mason. Uh, she wrote a book recently, but there's a slideshow of quotes and one of them says.

Sometimes kindness is just being clear. Mm, yes. That providing that clarity is so kind. Mm-hmm. Being truthful, being transparent, and the same nature of what decisions are all about. Right? Like 

Penny Fitzgerald: exactly 

Tami Reiss: like getting rid of ambiguity. Getting rid of uncertainty. It puts people at ease. It gives them the psychological safety of the foundational part of medical, [00:36:00] it makes them feel exactly like they're gonna be okay.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And so, yeah, kindness can be clarity. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah, I, I know so many women that are afraid to hurt someone else's feelings, and in doing so, set themselves up for failure. Yeah, because they're trying to please too many people and you can't ple and no one's gonna be pleased when you do that. And, and it goes back to the kindness thing where, you know, if you set clear boundaries, if you set clear intentions, you decide be, you know, it just is, that's, in my opinion, that's the kind thing to do.

Tami Reiss: And it's also impactful. So I had a coaching client years ago and I tell this story a lot 'cause it's such a universal story. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: She's working in this big organization and she's part of lots of team meetings where people bring up problems and she is [00:37:00] smart and she comes up with the solution and very often a gentleman from another.

Penny Fitzgerald: There we go. 

Tami Reiss: Takes on that solution. Mm-hmm. And then runs with it. And they run the project and they get the recognition for solving the problem because they have executed on it. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: She doesn't get very much credit for being the ideation of the solution. They get credit for the execution. And I said, why are you not raising your hand?

Or when they do that, why are you not offering to be part of the team? And she said, I don't wanna step on their toes.

And so it, I changed her mindset. I said, 

Penny Fitzgerald: thank you. I said, 

Tami Reiss: Hey. I said, if you are on that team, will it be more successful? Will you solve problems along the way in unique ways that only you can, so that they are more [00:38:00] successful and they're faster? And she said, absolutely. And I said, great. Then you're not stepping on anyone's toes.

You're helping them be successful. You're helping that team execute better and co and actually create a solution which is gonna be more sustainable and better for the customers. Anything else? And she, it changed her entire outlook. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. 

Tami Reiss: It got her, the promotion she was waiting for and my favorite nice part of this story, she left that company for another company.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: They brought her back and made up a role for her. Well, all she gets to do is consult and solve problems. That's 

Penny Fitzgerald: a perfect role for her. 'cause they 

Tami Reiss: missed her brain power. Yeah. So much. And, and it sucks that she had to leave for them to recognize that. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: But, but she had her name on all of these things now.

Uh, and they were like, oh my gosh, where is she? Yeah, right. [00:39:00] Well, her gift was 

Penny Fitzgerald: in, in coming up with the idea. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. But she needed to get that recognition. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. Right. And she 

Tami Reiss: needed to step on a few toes to get that recognition. Mm. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And 

Tami Reiss: you know what their toes were in the way. She was just wrong. You know, they were trying to trip her and she stepped on their feet.

Like, don't think about it as stepping on their toes. Like why is toe they're gonna begin with? Right. Right. 

Oh, preach girl. I, I, I wish, like a very long time ago. I don't get to tell this story. I don't know. The last time, um, I was looking for a job and there was a company that had access to literally all public data. Oh, wow. And they had like built AI models on top of, this was like a decade ago, but they had this really advanced technology and they could help researchers do all of these things.

And part of their interview questions was, if you could research anything, [00:40:00] what would it be? Like if, if like if anything was possible and I said, well, this kind of research is not something we consider humane, so it's impossible. I would love to know what moments happen in young girls' lives that make them think they're bad at math and make them think that they should oh, and make them think that they should.

Penny Fitzgerald: Be afraid of stepping on someone else's toes because the boys in their class don't feel that way. So what? Mm-hmm. At age four, is it age six? Is it something that's like, what is happening? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is it at home? Is it in school? What happens mentally, psychologically, that creates 51% of the population thinking they're less than. Yeah. Right. 

Tami Reiss: Instead of at least equal, if not better. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Like how did that happen? That we think we are less than [00:41:00] and less deserving?

I just wanna know. So that we can start fixing it. Yeah. At different ages. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. It, you know, it's just systemic. It's, It's the shows that we watch. It's the streaming, it's the movies, it's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's about power and the retention of that power. Yeah. I don't think it's intentional for most people to allow this to keep going like that, that attitude to keep festering, but it's just the way it's always been done. This is, you know, it's a stereotype for a 

Tami Reiss: reason. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Well, no, 

Tami Reiss: yeah. Stereotype because you're told this, and I'm part of is the percentage of teachers that are female and that we don't pay teachers enough.

Mm. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Right. And the percentage of principals that are male. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. [00:42:00] Wow. 

Tami Reiss: Right? Like it all plays into it, but it's, yeah. It's generational debt of, you know, yes. Sexism that, and it's, it's not active sexism. It's all these little passive aggressive mm-hmm. Touch points that. Build a picture in people's minds that we're less than and we're not less than.

Penny Fitzgerald: Exactly. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. I'm just thinking back through, um, like some things that I've heard from even my brothers, you know? Yeah, yeah. Generational. I, 

Tami Reiss: I, I was at UCLA and I was switching my major from engineering to physiological science, which is the human body. I was contemplating becoming a doctor and my father, who is a physician, said, nowadays that's a really good job for a woman because you can't really hold, you can't really like support a whole family on it, [00:43:00] but it's a really great second salary because like he had dealt with all the, and like obviously like doctors make a lot of money and he was just a matter of perspective, right?

Like he grew up in West Virginia, but. He had, you know, become this. And I was just like, whatcha talking about dad? Like, whatcha talking about? Yeah. And that's just the way he grew up. That a, that a man had to support the family, 

Penny Fitzgerald: Uhhuh 

and they were a provider and that women could help with spending money. Oh, 

So, uh, a few years ago, um, a friend of mine who's actually like a vice president of design at a big temp company, she used to, when she was interviewing in Silicon Valley, ask the executives what their wives did. Really, 

Tami Reiss: because her thesis was that if these bunch of male executives [00:44:00] had powerful wives, that they would be more in tune with the idea that.

Women have value of equal or more, and we have special gifts that we bring. And I mentioned this to, uh, a woman named Dr. Patty who does these sorts of studies. She worked at Cisco for a long time and she said it's actually not a matter of their wives, it's a matter of their daughters. When men of certain caliber have daughters and they recognize.

That the social fabric that we live in mm-hmm. Might limit their daughter's futures. They get mad. Oh. Because why would anything ever restrict their daughter's future? Wow. And so, luckily more daughters are being born in general, so we hope. But yeah, it's, there's, there's so many [00:45:00] things that. Over time will shift, you know?

Yeah. AI to a certain degree is a great equalizer, but, um, this woman I'm friendly with named Hannah Wind, she's talking, she was showing data that like 80% of everybody who's enrolled in AI courses are men. Why? This gets back to like women thinking they're bad at math probably, but like, go get it. Go learn it.

It's fresh. No one knows any more than anyone else go. Yeah. We're at the beginning. It's, it's, it's green open fields, it's blue ocean, like mm-hmm. Go

I wish that women. Just recognized that they have the right, they have the birthright to get what they want. Mm-hmm. To get where they want to build the life they want. Mm-hmm. And yeah, we all compromise. I'm not like some pie in the sky person who's like, everything's perfect all the time.

And if you just do these frameworks and these letters, no. But if you have a long term perspective about what you're [00:46:00] trying to build 

Penny Fitzgerald: mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: Success is a destination. When you get there, you can say, I'm in a good place in my life. I'm in a good place in my career, 

Penny Fitzgerald: and 

Tami Reiss: it's, it's this world that you're trying to build for yourself.

It's being able to live in Florida, part of the year in Iowa and the other 

Penny Fitzgerald: half. Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: So you can still connect with your family and friends, right? Mm-hmm. And that's the world you're trying to create, and this podcast is part of what enables that to happen. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and I, I look at the podcast as a journey too.

Like, I enjoy the journey, you know, and getting, I don't know that. Yeah, the successful sensation. 

Tami Reiss: Some people have a visceral reaction to that one. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Well, it's like, yeah, it's like getting, um, like moving the goalpost because like, you know, once you get your achievement or once you achieve what you had as a goal, okay, now [00:47:00] what's next?

It's the the 

Tami Reiss: journey. Which is why, which is why to me, success isn't one goalpost, right? It's a state of being where satisfaction you have access. Because you've hit certain milestones, because you've hit certain goalposts. Yes. Right. That you have this sense of peace. Because when we only have one goal and we hit there, absolutely we, what am I gonna do next?

Right? Mm-hmm. But when you have this whole picture of a world you're trying to create where you are influencing young girls or something else, and like mm-hmm. That it's, it's more than, oh, in my career I'm gonna become a vice president. It's, mm-hmm. I want a life where I can invest the time in myself, in my family, in my friends, in my community.

Mm-hmm. In the ways that matter to me, and this is what that's going to look like. Yes. Like I want my children to be citizens of the world. My four and five-year-old have been to [00:48:00] 12 countries. I love that. My daughter in utero went to six countries, which is more than the average American, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. My kids both have global entry. They're like two of the youngest people ever to have global entry, and we're going to, like, we build our life around being able to spend. Five, six weeks of the summer somewhere else so that they can be exposed to world culture and different people. And like my daughter asks people like, what language do they speak here?

Blah, blah, blah, blah. We had a friend who moved to Cleveland and she said, what language do they speak in Cleveland? And like, but that's what's important to me. That's not important to 99.9% of people. And we build our life around that. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. Love it. 

Tami Reiss: And other people should be building their life around the picture that they want.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yes. Yeah. What's 

Tami Reiss: your perfect day look like? [00:49:00] 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: What's your perfect year look like? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Hmm? 

Tami Reiss: What do you want your relationship with your partner to be like? What do you want your relationship with your kids to be like? What do you want your relationship with your parents? What do you want your relationship with your boss to be like?

Because when you build out all of that. Compass. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: It sets that direction. It helps you make those decisions. It creates that super amount of clarity for every step along the way. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Absolutely. And then when 

Tami Reiss: you're there, you can just be building up more pieces of it, but you feel you're in this successful state, you're in this place of happiness, of joy, of contentment, of fulfillment.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. Makes perfect sense. 

Tami Reiss: But it doesn't mean the journey isn't fun. 

Penny Fitzgerald: No, true. Exactly. It has to be, it's not worth doing if it's not fun. Um, I wanna circle back to a, um, the, the research company that you [00:50:00] interviewed with when they asked you the question and you know, and you, your answer, what did they say?

How did they respond to that? 

Tami Reiss: Um, they said, well, we already have data on some things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I didn't get hired, but yeah. Oh 

Penny Fitzgerald: yeah, I would, yeah. Yeah. Didn't kind glossed over the Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Huh. But I did mention it to Patty and she had some research on parts of that. I don't, but it's, it's young is the answer.

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Oh yeah. And it's multifaceted, right? Like that's mm-hmm. That's what, as you said, it's a systemic issue. That's what the challenges in solving any of these things, they're big, 

Penny Fitzgerald: big cultural issues. Yeah. Well look at the Disney movies that we grew up on. The princess always has to be saved. Uhuh. I think the, I think the movies are getting better.

You know, the, they're, 

Tami Reiss: I mean, it's why people love Elsa. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. Right. 

Penny Fitzgerald: And Moana, it's hard to build a story 

Tami Reiss: about like, true Love was actually between two sisters. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. [00:51:00] Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: to me they're like a manifestation of Grimm's Fairy Tales and Hans Christian Andersen, um, I, she, my daughter loves Sleeping Beauty, and we watched that one a good amount. And the heroes there are to a certain degree, the three fairies, right? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm-hmm. 

Tami Reiss: And so it's this collaborative winning, um, but.

What I love about it is that it's actually done, and I didn't realize this until recently, it's done to the Tchaikovsky score of the Sleeping Beauty Ballet. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh yeah. 

Tami Reiss: And she is, you know, a ballerina dancer, like all, like many other young girls. And we're taking her to see this like Tchaikovsky Ballet of Sleeping Beauty version.

And I'm excited for her to just be exposed to this classical music world through something that's accessible to her. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Yeah. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. So you never know what you, I think you just have to choose what you want someone to get out of it. [00:52:00] 

Penny Fitzgerald: Right. 

Tami Reiss: And help them recognize that as it's 

Penny Fitzgerald: true. Yeah. True with everything.

Tami Reiss: Yes. Agreed. Hundred percent agreed. 

Penny Fitzgerald: We, we've been talking about fun things all along, but, um, what's your favorite cocktail? Do you have a favorite cocktail or glass of 

Tami Reiss: wine? Um, I am a like old fashioned person, like a good old fashioned with like extra cherries.

Penny Fitzgerald: Mm. the Luxardo, but not Smokey t The good Oness. I don't 

Tami Reiss: do smokey Scotch la Freud mm-hmm. And things like that. Not for Tami. Um, but yeah, that, that's, that's my go-to. I love that. Like with a big ice cube. I love that. Big ice cubes are a thing now. Yeah. Like every bar that's worth its salt, like has like a big circular or rock, like it just looks so pretty and I love spinning it in a little glass.

They are beautiful. Yes. And you can get the silicone mold for at home. Yeah. No, I've tried that. It was, yeah, the round ones are [00:53:00] really hard to do, but the squares, they're hard to do. Silicon molds are totally 

Penny Fitzgerald: doable. 

Tami Reiss: Those are doable. Yes. 

Penny Fitzgerald: We totally have those at home too. I learned 

Tami Reiss: this from a bartender once. Yeah. Um, I actually trained as a bartender, but I learned from a bartender that if you want your ice to be more crystal clear.

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, filtered water. Right. 

Tami Reiss: Boiled, boiled. There's something about like boiling it that like changes, its temporary makeup so the bubbles go out or something. Really? I don't know. That's what he said. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I'm gonna try that. Okay. 

Tami Reiss: Tell me how it works. Send me an email. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Okay. I, I will, I'll show you. I'll snap a pic of my old fashioned.

You. 

Tami Reiss: Yes. You also have to send me your address so that I can send you a book. 

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh, I love that. What do product managers do? 

Tami Reiss: A primer for aspiring PMs of all ages and parents who aren't sure. It's a real job. I love that. Kids in it. Oh, [00:54:00] the illustrations are just fantastic. Like just, oh, that's so cute. Look at the business people.

It, oh, you also said you in sales ready? Our customers. These are people who pay for products that save precious time in their day. Salespeople persuade and also inspire prospects to become excited new buyers. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I love it. I look forward to reading that to our grandkids. 

Tami Reiss: There you go. How many grandkids do you have?

Penny Fitzgerald: We have three. 

Tami Reiss: Oh, 

Penny Fitzgerald: um, seven, five, and almost two. 

Tami Reiss: And you just have to make it an incentive for them. Understand what their needs are Exactly.

Penny Fitzgerald: those littles will love to jump into the pool and to papa's arms while I make old fashions for mom and dad and they can re rest and relax. Not have to worry about the kids for a minute. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I mean, 

Tami Reiss: all of those 

Penny Fitzgerald: things, all those things are wins.

I mean, tell them 

Tami Reiss: they can take a spa day. Yes. [00:55:00] Like, make it really attractive to them. Uhhuh. Yeah. Oh, 

Penny Fitzgerald: for sure. 

Tami Reiss: Yeah. I don't know if you, I, I full circle you, you're a salesperson. Have you ever read any of April Dun Ford's books Don't, obviously. Awesome. 

Penny Fitzgerald: I don't, don't, I'm not familiar with that. 

Tami Reiss: So April wrote a book called, obviously Awesome, and it's all about how in sales you need to make it just very clear that your product is obviously awesome, 

Penny Fitzgerald: Uhhuh.

And so 

Tami Reiss: like how do you distill away the 17 check marks on your comparison sheet to like the three things that really matter to someone? 

Penny Fitzgerald: Hmm. Brilliant. Yeah, well look 

Tami Reiss: up April, have her on the podcast. Okay. She's fantastic. I love that. I've never known anybody who's like, like people say, I'm high energy. I am in awe of April's energy.

Penny Fitzgerald: Oh,Okay. Tell me how good. Thank you for that. You're welcome. This has been absolutely wonderful. I, I just enjoy this so much, Tami, 

Tami Reiss: right back at you. Me as well. [00:56:00] 

Penny Fitzgerald: Wonderful. I'll put those links in my show notes to make sure people can find you and get connected. Cool. 

Tami Reiss: All the things.

All right, Penny, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, and I hope to, you know, reconnect soon.

Penny Fitzgerald: Absolutely wonderful.

Have a wonderful day. You too.