Jason Nordlund on Hedge Fund Growth, Diversified Strategy & Preparing for Economic Shifts | Modern Investing Podcast

In this episode, we talk with Jason Nordlund, founder of The Norstar Group, about building a hedge fund from scratch, navigating economic uncertainty, and the power of a diversified investment strategy.

Jason shares:

• How a late-night real estate infomercial launched his investing journey
• His self-taught evolution from real estate to hedge fund management
• A breakdown of his personal portfolio: precious metals + high-growth tech
• His influences from Austrian economics and free-market principles
• How to think like a strategist, not a speculator, in volatile markets

“My strategy is simple but not easy: be prepared for anything… Spread your risk, and don’t let your money rot on the vine.”

Whether you’re an aspiring investor or seasoned fund manager, this episode is packed with hard-earned insights on balancing growth and safety in a world that’s constantly shifting.

About Jason Nordlund:

Jason Nordlund is the founder of The Norstar Group, a hedge fund built on the principles of self-education, diversified investing, and macroeconomic awareness. Starting his entrepreneurial journey in college, Jason expanded from a high-end painting business to real estate and eventually into investment strategy and capital growth.

After facing early setbacks, Jason turned to deep study of macro theory, Austrian economics, and venture capital—emerging with a framework that prioritizes both liberty and long-term value creation. He now helps investors bridge the gap between access and insight through education, deal flow, and live events.

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About Sidepocket:

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That's why Sidepocket applies sophisticated quantitative methods, including tactical asset allocation to systematically minimize these drawdowns and consistently protect and grow your hard earned savings.

To learn more, visit www.sidepocket.com 

Transcript

 Welcome to the Modern Investing with Sidepocket podcast, where we find some of the brightest minds in investing, entrepreneurship, real estate, tech, and more, and ask them, how do you stay financially ahead of the curve in the dynamic world we live in? But before we start, a quick disclaimer, the content we are discussing through this channel should not be understood or construed as financial advice.

Regardless of anything to the contrary, nothing available on or through this channel should be understood as a recommendation to buy or sell securities or constitute financial advice. With that out of the way, let's get started. So welcome today on Modern Investing with SidePocket. We have Jason Nordlund, founder of Norstar Group.

Jason, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit with regards to what you're up to now? And then we'll, we'll dive into your history and you know, what you went through to, you know, become who you are today. Yeah, absolutely. Love to. My pleasure. So, um, yeah, my name is Jason Nordland. I, um, I run an investment fund.

I started a fund back back in 2015. However, it was two years ago where I got really, really serious and kind of took it to the next level, if you will. And so we've just been been. Banging our profits, trying to make wise decisions and, and, um, uh, doing the best that we can, we've been able to successfully grow capital pretty significantly over the last two years, um, since COVID actually, and, um, it's just, you know, we're, we're along for a great ride and it's been a lot of fun and we're going to continue doing it.

We, we have our, uh, our couple sectors that we really believe in and that we, we spend the majority of our time, the majority of our focus, uh, but we're pretty agnostic when it comes to. Absolute classes overall, um, meaning in principle, there's, there's, there's nothing that I wouldn't look at. It's just that there's, I have a couple of favorites that make a lot of sense to me, uh, right now and, uh, considering today's, uh, political and economic environment.

So, yeah, that's me. No, totally makes sense. I mean, you know, this day and age, you can't, you got to be a little agnostic, be open to whatever, because everything's kind of on its own. But, uh, good call sticking to what you know. I wanted to kind of just highlight on the, focus on the moment first that had you.

Decide to embark on your journey and investing. Like what, what was kind of happening at the time when you started really, all right, I'm going to be an investor. I'm going to start, you know, devoting more time, you know, working with my money, making it work for me and kind of what started you off on your journey.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't tell the story often, but I'm, I'm, I'm happy to. Um, it's, it's a slight, um, uh, I, I don't want to say embarrassment, but, but, you know, we're, we're just here to tell our stories. Right. So I'll be vulnerable with you guys, but my investing career actually started, uh, from an infomercial and, um, and, uh, and a Saturday morning infomercial mind you, not a late night infomercial.

I didn't even know at the time what an infomercial was. Okay. But I'm, I'm, I just graduated. Actually, I'm sorry, I was still in my senior year of school and, um, uh, wrapping up my studies was, was, was intending to go in on a completely different career path. And at the time I was in business for myself. I started a company when I was in, in college.

And so, um, it was really just learning. That I even had this entrepreneurial side. Well, I'm watching an infomercial on a Saturday morning, uh, with one of my best friends and we were both recently married where, you know, we're, we're college students, right? So we literally shared a room. Um, and it's my buddy and I are see this infomercial that comes on about how to buy, uh, real estate, no money down and, uh, how to acquire properties and flip and that sort of thing.

And so I went to a free seminar and, um, In that seminar, of course, there's, you're, you're, you're talking about very highly trained salespeople and, uh, they gave the pitch and they put on a, um, I don't know, I guess I don't know what you'd refer to it, but the tactic was for so many people to sign up, right?

Get, get, get a special deal or, you know, something shaved off or something extra thrown in. I was sitting in the front row, you know, And I literally was the first person to the back of the room and I knocked someone over on the way there. Here's what's significant about it. I was, this stuff was so in my blood, but I did not know because I had never been confronted with it.

I'd never even considered that I would be an investor, but I came alive when, as they pitched this and they talked about what was possible. I'm like, Oh my God, like I, I need this. And so, you know, the amount of energy that I felt towards this, you know, I just felt the pull in this direction. It was, it was really significant.

So, um, but that's, that's the truth. The God honest truth about what started it. And I, I spent 1, 600 that day. I went to a three day seminar. Um, you know, we had, uh, our first homework assignment at this three day seminar was. Call your credit card companies and, and, and see how far you get them to expand your credit.

And, you know, I'm, I think I'm 23 years old at the time, never had a late payment in my life. I, you know, I probably had, I had a good chunk of available credit, um, only because I, you know, I just had always been responsible with it. And, you know, I think I had like 80, 000. and credit limits, you know, for a 23 year old, that's not bad.

And then that day I had to go and expand it out, but I didn't realize it's the reason they're having you expand it out is because they want you to make as much room as possible to buy their training. So, so on the last day of the seminar, I. I got hit up for more training and I was, I was, I was, I was hooked.

I was newlywed, so I did call my wife at the time and I asked her, um, if that would be okay for me to put money for training on a credit card. She said, well, how much? And I said, Well, you know, 20, just 22, 000, you can imagine what a, what a, what a brand new wife would have thought at that time, you know, with, you know, there's definitely some level of hesitancy, but she gave me her blessing and I went for it.

And so that led to a bunch more training and, uh, was in 2002, I quit my. painting business that I'd started in college. And I, I went to work, you know, I pursued home flipping and rentals full time, um, by mid 2002, actually, I would say early 2002. And that's what started it out for me. So I started acquiring real estate and I got my lesson there and earned some stripes, some of my stripes there.

And, and, um, that eventually evolved into a lot of the things I do today. But that is where I got my start. Nice. And that education worthwhile? You know, it's a, it's a great question. I, I have to, yes and no. Yes and no. I would say that it was extremely overpriced education. Um, I would say that knowing what I know now, I would know where to go.

To get that education much cheaper. And I've, I've since had to do that and, you know, different areas that I've wanted to, you know, become more, you know, move towards expert level and, and I've, I've had to be self taught in a lot of situations. And I've, I've never since had to spend that kind of money. But in hindsight, I can't say I regret it at all.

And I have to say that it was worth it. And for one, if only for one reason, this is the biggest one. It forced me to, it held my feet to the fire. And I, I literally, I could not live with myself. If I would have failed, I would have let my wife down. I would have let myself down. And so I had no choice, but to just stick it out and grind and follow through.

And even when it didn't make sense. And I thought. You know, I'm pulling my hair out and, you know, like I literally had days where I, where I was crying, you know, like, I don't think I can do this, you know, and, um, but having that amount of money on the line and recognizing what a big failure that would have been, if I, if I would have just stopped, it forced me to keep going.

And so I figured it out and I plowed through. Um, and it, you know, it took, it took several months, uh, but I eventually found my niche in late 2002. So about a year later after, after I, I, you know, I put on, you know, when I, when I spent 22, 000 on a credit card, I finally figured out, hey, I can make this work and this is how I'm going to do it.

Um, and I think, I think part of the process and it taking so long is, is, you know, whenever you're taking on a new identity, um, it's, there's a, For me, at least there was a, there was a period of time I had to go through. I really had to sift through not just who am I, but who am I not? So I would try a lot of things that, you know, ended up either not working out or just didn't fit my personality.

Just didn't, you know, didn't give me energy. I just wasn't interested in, um. But I think figuring out who you're not is, is just as important as figuring out who you are. And so I had to go through that process. And, um, yeah, so about a year later, I, I figured it out, um, found my niche inside of the real estate business.

And I just did that transaction over and over and over again. And I, I was able to build wealth really, really quickly in my young to mid twenties. So I found my niche, um, By knocking on doors of people in foreclosure, um, and, and offering to buy their house. So we did a lot of research. Um, we, we got documents from, you know, the sheriff's office of who was being foreclosed on.

Um, I eventually hired, you know, just a researcher, someone to, you know, be the caretaker was the spreadsheet that we developed. And we really figured out which properties had equity. Um, and we're, you know, it wasn't a perfect science because we're basing it off of, you know, what was a, you know, a tax assessed value, uh, which, which fluctuated, you know, and so, but generally we had a good idea that Texas value was a certain percentage of true value.

Um, and we, we would yeah we would we would cherry pick the ones that had the equity. And that's, that's what we did eventually I developed a team I had had guys in each of the four major counties here. in the Twin Cities area, Minnesota. And we, and we ended up having a blast, but we were very systematic about what we did.

And, uh, um, and we, we offered, uh, to buy people's homes. One of the transactions we did quite often, um, that was a bit unique to us, although we had plain competition that was also doing it is that we would, we were willing to buy a property from somebody and then lease it. Back to them, giving them an opportunity to buy it back.

And so it's called the lease buyback transaction. So we did several of those, um, until the political environment changes such where it just wasn't, there's no longer advantageous after a while to do those. We had a. Attorney General really, really came down on that type of transaction. And, and there was a lot of political motivation for him to do it.

And there, and there were some bad guys out there that needed to be chased out of the business for sure. There was some dirty stuff that went on, but we closed a high percentage of our transactions. I think one of the reasons we're successful is, is we just sat down with people and we were real with them.

And I think people, people trusted us. And, uh, and so we were, you know, I didn't charge an exorbitant fee to do that. I, I, I mean, it was reasonable when I was well paid. But I, it was really based on how long they needed me in the picture. And there was, there was a kind of a, you know, there was a, there was a redemptive value too, that I really, really enjoyed, you know, I enjoyed giving people, you know, another opportunity for a start.

Um, in my opinion, a lot of people just needed to let their property go and run away. But there are situations all the time where people were just. For whatever reason, you know, they get, they lose a job, they go through something, you know, some tragedy in their life. Someone dies or the divorce and, and yeah, they just need a fresh start.

So we were able to help them get back on their feet. And I would say about half of the people that I did those transactions with actually bought them back and it was cool. So yeah, I think that's a great story, Jason. Uh, what really amazes me though, is how many You know, hyper successful people like yourself that I speak with that have this kind of thing in common where they, there's both this like unique.

Opportunity that was timed, right? That was completely market dependent, but they also had kind of the courage and the foresight and all these things to really, um, capitalize on that opportunity. It sounds like that's that's exactly what you did for sure. For sure. So I think, you know, in hindsight, it was probably it was probably meant to be.

I think we were in the right place at the right time. So, um, And, you know, we really enjoyed helping people and I built a nice balance sheet very quickly. So it was a win win all the way around. So, well, that brings me to my next question. Um, talk about, I'm assuming this is when you started getting more into the stock market, right?

And learning more about the opportunities there. So. The real estate market, as everyone now knows, doesn't always go straight up. And, um, I think it's, I think it's fair to say that I just didn't know what I didn't know. And so I entered, you know, this, this arena and, you know, in 2002, 2003, and the market could just do no wrong.

And I continued to, you know, to build a balance sheet and crank. You know, and buy more property and that sort of thing. I acquired quite a, acquired quite a few rentals, even out of state. And, and, um, you know, I did that between 2002 and 2007. Of course, you don't have to be a history buff to know what happened in 2007, 2008 with the housing crisis.

But I got, I got caught in the middle of that really bad. And, um, in fact, it, it, it forced me to start over and, you know, and have my own fresh start. Um, so it was, uh, you know, it was a very, very humbling experience to build that much wealth and to work that hard. And then at the end of the day to have nothing to show for it, except for experience, which is invaluable.

And, um, but it was really when I had to start over. I was able to go back to the drawing board and say to myself, okay, what is it that you want in life and who do you want to be? And I was, I was able to, um, I, truthfully, I created a long, long list, longest list of things that I wanted to do and learn. And, um, I really, after taking some time off.

I, I, I really hit the books hard and I became that self study, you know, that self, uh, um, I became self taught in many areas and one of them was trading actually. So, um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of how it started. I had to go back to the drawing board and recreate myself. And that was when I ventured into a lot of the types of transactions I do today.

So, and I studied everything from options trading, currency trading, to mergers and acquisitions, and, um, you know, everything under the sun, I think I at least explored within the investment community. Um, and again, it was that same process of figuring out not just Like part of figuring out who you are is figuring out who you're not, right?

So I tried a lot of different things, um, to, to see what, what fit the most. And, um, yeah, so that's, that's really, really where it started. Um, one of the first subjects I tackled when I was, as I was, you know, going through this new, you know, this new creation process, if you will, is, is I, uh, I studied macroeconomics.

And I ran across a school of thought called Austrian economics. I'm sure you guys are both heard of it. It was, there were the, you know, the likes of, you know, Peter Schiff and Mike Maloney and Robert Kiyosaki were, were all subscribing to the school of thought. And I remember Um, and again, very impressionable at the time, didn't, didn't have a lot of strong opinions about any of this stuff.

Cause I'd never taken the time to study it. I'd never studied the big picture before. Um, but discovering that like, you know, Peter Schiff called this, this collapse. Um, it was very, very sobering for me to study from his perspective and to understand it the way he did. To understand how the Fed works, how a debt based monetary system works, that was all, those were all things that are now very foundational to me, uh, when I, when I, you know, when I develop an, an overall view of the markets and where they're headed, um, I have to take those things into consideration now, but those are things that I just didn't know about prior.

And so that, that really, um, yeah. It was, it was really the foundation to who I become today. So Jason, I have a quick follow up question to that because there's a lot of different kind of schools of economic thought. And, you know, one that propagates fairly often is Keynesian, um, Kenyan, Keynesian school of thought.

And many people do not kind of naturally gravitate towards the Austrian school. Especially people here on the West Coast, especially here in San Francisco, where, uh, where we are. Um, do you think that there's something what do you think really attracted you to that school of thought at the core is I don't meet too many people that.

Are interested in the Austrian school of thought, um, or are even familiar with it. You know, no, absolutely. Well, you know, yeah, Keating theory is definitely more prevalent society. And it's really, um, you know, the belief that that governments can. Can can control certain factors that will overall control, uh, you know, the economy and I would like to think that it's done with with good intent.

And I think many that subscribe to that, that those economic policies do have good intent. I would never assume that that the majority of them don't because, as you've already stated, most most people do think along those lines. Um, what was attractive about it to me? Thank you. You know, again, I think initially what sparked it was, was, was watching Peter Schiff be right and call it out.

Um, I, I will say that my feelings of Peter Schiff and that camp have, have evolved, um, because I think you can be right and still be really wrong on timing. And I've learned that that group really is wrong on timing. I mean, they've, you know, because he's been predicting the next leg down since the housing crisis and it just hasn't happened yet.

And so he's been wrong for a lot more years than he's been right. And the truth is that, you know, the other side of the coin or the Keynesian school of thought actually looks a lot smarter right now, I would say. Um, I don't think it ends well, according to that school of thought, I think that there are, um, I, at least for me personally, I'm, you know, my convictions have, have developed to a point where I would, I would say, You know, the likes of Peter Schiff, Robert Kiyosaki, and by the way, Robert Kiyosaki was someone who was a big influence on me in my beginning years, and I think he has been for a lot of young investors and entrepreneurs, but hearing him also subscribe to it, that, you know, I think that brought a lot of validity to it.

But, um, but yes, I, it's, um, it's, I don't want to say it's complicated, but it certainly is not easy for people to sift through with, with the two various options. And, um, and, you know, I find it unfortunate that our, our universities are really only teaching one. I've talked to many, uh, economics students who, like, they sort of, like, You know, they had a section in a class where they learned about Austrian economics.

But most of them don't understand it at all. Uh, certainly they don't subscribe to it. So it's, it's just not being taught. I think it's unfortunate, but that is the way of the world. We each have to make the best decisions that we possibly can, given the information that we're holding. And you can't fault anybody for trying to do that, regardless of what side of the fence are on when it comes to that particular topic.

Do you think there's a reason why Uh, the Austrian school isn't taught formally. Well, it's because it's very anti fed. I think it's very opposed to, uh, central planning and it calls their actions. It brings to light the manipulation that happens behind the scenes. And it's really anti free market take today, for instance, you know, we have.

Artificially low interest rates. And I realized we're in an environment right now where interest rates are rising, but, but overall interest rates are still very, very low. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's funny because I, I do have some very conservative libertarian friends who believe they're anti fed and believe they're anti socialism, that sort of thing, you know, and.

You know, government dropping money on, on the people and that sort of thing and all the money printing that's gone on, but then you talk to him about a 30 year mortgage, and I don't think most people understand the history of 30 year mortgages, but it certainly is the policy of. Socialism, if we, if we want to call it that, it's something that's provided by our government that the free market would never do, the free market would never lend money at even today's interest rates.

They just wouldn't do it, uh, because the, the, the risk of capital is far too great. And so I would say, True interest rates. What the market would actually do without without government backing is is a much, much different scenario. So there's pros and cons to all of this. You know, I mean, the reality is, is that economy has been able to grow a lot quicker.

And that's that's a lot of people have benefited from that by having government interference. And so we can get really principled on it. Uh, you know, you know, the, you know, the, the, the likes of Peter Schiff and Robert Kiyosaki, um, I think, I, I think they're right. It's not going to end well at some point, but certainly people have benefited from it and, and my, and myself included.

Yeah, I think that's actually the perfect segue to, you know, given that school of thought is most probably right now, what are kind of approaches to investing? That are appropriate under those circumstances, you know, I'd love to kind of learn, learn a little bit about your perspective there. And, uh, Arthur, if you want to add anything to that question, yeah, definitely.

Because, you know, Jason, you know, you're on a hedge fund now and you got pretty, pretty deep into trading and you

know, given given the reality of. Thank you. You know, everything we just discussed, how, how do you see is like a great approach to investing in, in really modern times with respect to these realities? Yeah, no fair question. Um, I, you know, I think my, my solution is simple, but not easy. It's be prepared for anything.

Um, I think that given today's political environment, you can invest in gold if you'd like, you know, and I, and I say, and I, I say gold cause I feel like it represents. The most conservative you can be as an investor. It represents if say the currency. Does fail and there's big crisises or big crisis, you know, on the horizon, gold's a great place to be, um, but it doesn't pay to wait.

And so there's, you know, there's many from that school of thought that have, that have been in this hurry up and wait mode and they've been waiting and waiting and waiting and they're not getting a return on capital. And the, and of course the, the biggest challenge of something like precious metals is they don't, they don't pay dividends on the, on the other side of the coin, you could take like a high flying tech stock, take your Amazon, take your Google, your Apple.

These companies are ruling the world at this point. I mean, it's unbelievable how big they've become in their market caps. Tesla is a great example. And I love these companies. I want to be clear. I do, and I've profited from it, but I think as a strategy, if you're on one side or the other, you're, you're likely going to get hurt at some point.

So my strategy is I put, I allocate it out. I have some money that's on the precious metal side. That isn't. Getting me a great return today, but I sleep very comfortable knowing that it's there. Um, and then I have, you know, I, I, I don't want to say I chase, but I'm involved in some of the best technologies out there that I think are going to revolutionize the world.

And my thought process is there is a crisis coming and I'm going to do well because I'm invested in the metal space. I'll be rewarded from that someday. Um. But I'm going to make money along the way too, and that's why I'm invested in the tech stuff. And my belief is that on the, on the, on the tech side, at least the stuff that I'm involved with, I don't think it matters if there's a crisis in the future or not.

I think that technology is going to continue to evolve and develop, and I'm going to be rewarded regardless of what happens in the long haul. And so I like having my money there. I call that more so my growth money. And I consider the stuff that I've allocated towards. Metals, you know, my, my safer bucket of assets to be clear and to take it a step further.

Um, depending on how much risk people want to take, I have a, I have a higher risk tolerance. Um, I feel that I keep myself safe because I, you know, I believe in spreading my risk out amongst several opportunities still within the same couple of sectors, but I don't personally. Buy a lot of precious metals to me.

It's just like, it's good money rotting on a vine. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, at least given where I'm at in my career, uh, you know, the investors that trust me with the risk capital, they want higher rates of return. So to just sit on metals doesn't make a lot of sense, but what we have done.

Is we've pinpointed some of the best projects that I could find to get involved with, and we get involved at an early stage with mining companies and projects that I, you know, are in the midst of making world class discoveries. To me, that is a good use of capital, um, even though it may not pay off immediately, um, it's, it's kind of like, uh, the returns will be supercharged when metals.

take off when they do their thing. And so I like being in that space. Uh, like I said, it's a bit more risky and you really do have to spread out your risk because not all those projects are going to work or be successful, but it's a great way I think to build wealth over the long haul and to build serious wealth.

So, so that makes sense, you know, spreading around your risk. So you have this investment mix that you've developed. How often do you go in and re evaluate that investment mix and say, you know what, the next year I'm going to reduce. My commodities exposure because I'm feeling pretty good, you know about equities.

How often do you kind of go in and do that process? Yeah, no, it's good. You know, formally, I don't really have a set time because I think I'm always doing it. You know, I'm always looking at our portfolio and I'm saying, okay, where, where are we allocated? Where are we strong? Where are we weak? Last year, I made a lot of investments towards the tech side of things, in particular, blockchain technology is what I invested in.

And I was very, very happy with our exposure and not to mention, you know, the blockchain just, it went insane last year in a good way. Um, it's down this year now, but last year was incredible for us. And we're involved in projects that are. They're going to be around for, for years to come. And, um, you know, they're not, they're not going away.

They're not, you know, I'm not talking about investing in the Doge coins and stuff like that. That's very, very speculative. I'm talking about infrastructure plays that I think make a lot of sense. That's what I did with the majority of our capital last year. Fast forward to this year and right away, you know, you recognize it.

Okay. Markets hurting. There's going to be some policy changes. I would rather have more exposure to metals. And so my focus this year has been to to kind of balance out all of the, you know, the exposure I have to the tech side of things. And this year I pursued more more mining assets. So that was a much higher priority to me but so for me it's really just trying to keep those two in balance.

And there was a time earlier this year, I'll be honest, where I'm like, Oh shit, I shouldn't have spent so much money on tech. I wish I had. I wish I had gone deeper into some of the medals when I still have a chance now. Truth is... You got another buying opportunity here in metals and that's, that's actually worked out really, really well because they just, you know, they, their performance just was really halted through some of this more recently.

And a lot of it has to do with the rising dollar, I suppose, but, um, You know, it's I, I've been awarded time and, and I, you know, I was grateful for that. And so that's allowed me to go in and build up that side of a sheet or so. Do you, do you have like advice or like a general perspective for the people that, for example, don't have your time horizon and don't necessarily have the vision to find technologies that.

Like blockchain that are going to have a huge impact potentially, right? If you pick the right ones out of the thousands, uh, but let's say they're retiring in like two, three years or something like that. And because time horizon is also very important. And then, you know, if they had exposure and they're, let's say, 64 years old, and they're retiring in three years to blockchain this year.

They may not be able to retire, uh, in two years. Right, correct. Yeah. I mean, what, what is my advice to them? It's that's, that's a, that's a million dollar question, you know? So, um, you know, if you're, if you're talking about somebody who has. Their, their finances squared away and that they're, they're going to be able to survive because they've been saving money or, you know, investing at even a mutual fund, you know, um, they, if they've seen at least nominal growth on, on their investments, then, then they have the money there.

So now they're looking at, okay, how can we preserve the capital? We have live off interest. That's a much different conversation than what I would have with someone who. Doesn't have retirement figured out at all. And they, and they're nearing that age where they, they have to retire. It's a tough spot to be in.

If they need to grow capital, they either need to. Get educated fast or find somebody that they can really, really trust. The challenge with your traditional financial planners is they're not really investors. They're just really good sales people for other investors products. And so I think it's important to understand, make that distinction because if people are relying on financial planners, they're not qualified usually to help people grow a portfolio.

Quickly, they need what I call an alpha, you know, they need, they need someone who, who is confident in their ability to beat the market and, and, um, you know, and move forward. And so in that scenario, it's, yeah, it's just, it's a much, it's a much different conversation and how things will play out in the next two, three years is it's, it's tough.

It's really tough. Like, because do you. Do you encourage them to play it a little bit safer, or do you encourage them to go for it, you know, and it's, it really depends on their risk tolerance too, so more than anything. Yeah, and what I, but I think what I would do if someone asked me, depending on where they're at in their situation.

The only thing I would say is, look, this is what I would do if I was in your situation. And, you know, they can, I guess take it or leave it at that point, but sure. Yeah. And so it seems like in some instances. Kind of existing financial advisors that are You know, pushing very passive strategies, like, uh, even, even modern portfolio based, you know, derived strategic asset allocation.

Right. Even that you're down 20th, 25 percent this year. Right. Um, so how, how are you kind of bridging that gap and approaching clients and, and saying, Hey, you know, you, you're in a position where you need both drawdown protection and you need alpha, uh, and. You're not going to get that from a traditional financial advisor, right?

Sure. Sure. Yeah, I don't actually have to have that conversation too often. And I don't, I don't, I also don't pursue people for capital if they come to me, it's a different conversation, but I, I, yeah, I don't solicit. And so I honestly don't have to have that conversation a whole lot. Now, having said that I manage my mother's money.

And, you know, she is a, um, a perfect example of somebody who did, you know, didn't have a lot to retire. Um, and, and it actually just retired this year, but, you know, I saved a very nominal amount of money and, you know, had it working in a 401k, which, you know, actually. actually grew for. I was, I was actually, you know, I've been rather impressed with, with the results over the last decade.

At the same time, it still wasn't enough. And one of the biggest challenges I find with, with financial planners is, is they get paid regardless of how they perform. And, uh, that's not something I've ever been able to do with a clear conscience. I don't want a management fee. Um, I, I, I only want to be. paid based on performance.

And I feel that puts me on the same side of my investors. But, um, you know, in the case of someone like my mom, um, you know, she's, she's known because she, you know, she started late and honestly, she didn't really start until, until she turned everything over to me. And we've been able to substantially grow her, her, her net worth.

And, and, you know, my thing is if you can just focus on hitting, you know, this is a trader, just focus on hitting Just keep hitting singles, right? Those doubles, triples, and home runs are going to come along. What you need to avoid are excessive strikeouts, right? Right. It's the name of the game, right? It's absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

It is. But again, we focused on hitting singles and thank God we've been able to hit, you know, some doubles and triples. And, you know, I think we have a, we have a really, really big home run in our portfolio. That's, you know, that I'm really excited about. And I think You know, I think my mother will, um, you know, retire, uh, with several million dollars because she was willing to pursue alpha.

Now, having said that she had not, she would have no clue how to execute that on her own, you know? So, uh, but, so she did have to find someone she could trust. And so I think that's, that, you know, and she's not interested in learning how to. Do what I do and when, you know, it took me 20 years to learn how to do what I do, you know, so it's not like you can teach someone how to do this in a, in five weeks, you know, or six week class, which I'm actually starting a class, by the way, an education program, but, and I, and I can.

Deliver most of the teaching in six weeks, but the actual implementation of it is going to take a lot longer than that. And it's really up to people how fast they want to move. But in the case of someone like, you know, my mother or, you know, anyone that's retiring soon, I, I don't know that I'd have the energy.

I'm 44 years old and I love to learn. I thrive off of it, but I don't know that I have the energy and the drive anymore to start from scratch. I mean, if I had to, I'm sure I would find it. Um, but I, you know, let's be honest, the older you get, you start to slow down a little bit and your ambition, just your, or your, your, I guess your drive somewhat, it changed over time.

Right. And I don't want to take the same risks that I, that I used to in my, in my twenties. And thank God I don't have to anymore, but I still believe in growing capital methodically, and I think you can do it far more aggressively than what. What, um, you know, it was considered normative. And so, you know, just based on our own rates of return in the last couple of years, it's been, it's been amazing.

And I don't really see that slowing down anytime soon. So I think, uh, you're onto something there. It seems to me that everybody, um, tried to get into trading or some sort of alpha generating, um, activities during the pandemic. Uh, and I think it was severely. Um, under advertise how difficult it is to do that.

It's like you would never, you know, expect to go be able to do brain surgery after sitting through a couple of YouTube videos and then playing around for three months, right? Uh, but the reality is, as both we know, both of us are familiar with, it does take 20 years or like at least 10 years if you're very diligent, right?

Do you, how do you bridge that gap? Uh, have you thought about that at all? Yeah, it's, it, it's, it's difficult. It just depends, you know, my, my story started when I was 23, 24 years old, you know, so I had time on my side and for someone who doesn't, um, maybe they, they need to find a more passive approach to still achieving great returns.

And I think actually you guys offer a solution for that, which I think is pretty cool. Um, but, but I don't know, you know, they, they're, they're going to either need a mentor. They're going to need some level of guidance and the less time they have, even the more important that is, is, is to find help. The challenge again is finding qualified.

So, but there are, there are strategies out there, you know, this is, this is not something I. I, um, I, I don't, I'm not recommending this when I say this, but Warren Buffett had really, really good advice for the person who does not want to become the master like he is, or someone who just wants to take a more passive approach.

And that is by a low cost index fund and just ride the market up. Now, the challenge with that. Is, is, is of course timing and depending on how much capital you have in play, can you even afford to live off the interest or, you know, is there enough interest coming in to support your lifestyle and oftentimes it just isn't.

And that's where you got to take a more aggressive approach, but if you have the capital and you're not interested in becoming an expert and you don't want to get too. Too, too far out there in your approach or too aggressive, then, then you, then you follow that advice and just play the low cost index on and, and, and, you know, alpha investing is just not for you at that point, I guess.

So, yeah, but there's, there's so many ways to, to make money. It's just, it really, uh, people have to take some of those decisions into their own hands and, and, and really be responsible with their choices. And it does, it takes time to sort through and figure out. So there's not an easy solution to this. In my opinion, look what it took for you to, uh, get the game back 20 years ago with, with, uh, you know, with the housing market, I mean, you invested, you took responsibility and you followed some, you know, some instruction, you made it your own and then you kept developing upon that and, um, You know, it really, really takes knowing what you do.

You either have someone else that you trust or figure it out yourself. So I wanted to kind of close this chat here and bring it home to like, you know, what you think what we're doing is great as side pocket and who would you recommend it for and just kind of get your thoughts on it as well. Well, it, it, it probably, the more I think about it, it probably is the solution to what we're, what we're, uh, uh, what we're looking for right now.

And that is, it's, it isn't. An opportunity for people to achieve alpha, but especially if you don't have time on your side, you need, um, and you don't have to become an expert. Is it my, am I correct in those assumptions? Would you say that that side pocket fix that? Yeah, exactly. It's never been easier to buy stock, right?

You can buy Amazon for a dollar now for free, you know, before you had to buy the full share and pay like 50 bucks for the transaction, right? But what's what's still what's still the difficult part of that is still knowing what you're doing and following sound strategies. And, and that's, that's what we hope to, to, we're committed to help make really easy.

It's we're like the easy button to getting returns in the stock market. Just pretty much all is designed out, you know, decades old strategies, proven lots of testing behind them and, uh, you know, stuff that people can use to, to, uh, you know, just get in, get into the game and achieve consistent returns. You know, regardless of what happens in the market, because they're active and they're tactical.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Hey, and I, I, man, I commend you guys for, for figuring it out because I think you guys, it sounds like you guys have a tool that you can, you really can help the masses with. Um, it's very, it's very, very needed. So I don't know what the fee structures are and whatnot, but I, I'm, I'm assuming they're.

They're a bit more favorable than what your traditional, uh, financial planner would charge for a lot of their products. So, um, but I think it's great. I think it's great if you can help people achieve alpha. Um, and they don't have to become an expert. That's, that's a great solution. So, because that fits the majority of, of our demographics.

So they just, they just don't have the time or the resources to become that person that, you know, has, has made it a career. Well, I appreciate that vote of confidence for Jason. Appreciate your time. Thanks for hopping on. I think we produced a really valuable conversation here. I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy.

Um, so I just want to close that discussion with a big thank you and, uh, look forward to, uh, you know, doing this again sometime. Absolutely gentlemen. I'd love to do it. And, um, yeah, excited about your project. Excited about the things we're working on. So let's definitely connect again. Sounds great. Awesome.

I really appreciate your time, Jason. Absolutely, gentlemen. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you, Arthur. This podcast is sponsored by SidePocket, the only automated robo advisor on the market that combines multiple tactical asset allocation investment strategies to generate returns. If you don't have the time to professionally trade and you're tired of being at the whim of the market's ups and downs, consider using SidePocket to automate your investing.

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That's why side pocket applies sophisticated quantitative methods, including tactical asset allocation to systematically minimize these drawdowns. and consistently protect and grow your hard earned savings. To learn more, visit SidePocket. com.