S1 Ep 6 “Embracing our Dark & Finding our Light” with therapist Courtney Clifford

Joining us today on the podcast is Courtney Clifford (MS, MFT). She is a NYU Trained and Trauma Informed Coach and Equine Assisted Psychotherapist based in New York City. She’s helping us crack open relationships by discussing the benefits of therapy. In this conversation with Nik Lockhart, Courtney shares how to go about finding safe communication and habits long before we enter partnership.

In this episode we talk about family patterns and traumas, how to come into your relationship with healthy habits of self-love, finding the right therapist and modality for you, and modeling safe communication and relationships with a third party.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

So, something we can ask ourselves is how might this trigger or this person or this situation be supporting my growth? Because we have to understand the more that we can hold the duality within ourselves of the light and the shadow, we can also hold that in our relation to others. Yet, so often everyone wants to get to the light.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Yeah, well, they think love is just the light, but love is both. Love is the light.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

Yes! Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Welcome to the love department. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart. I'm a former matchmaker, a writer, a love theorist, and a second theory. The love department is a heartwarming podcast exploring the nature of love and relationships. Thank you for being here. Because you know, when I was building the podcast and I was thinking about like who I would want to invite on, because it is such a sacred space to me and to I think a lot of our listeners, um, I knew when I brought on a therapist to be able to talk um about something as big and as meaningful in people's lives as love, that I wanted it to be someone that people could not only connect with but feel like the genuine love and energy from, and that's something that I've always felt from you. And I'm really grateful to have you here.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

Oh, I'm so happy to be here and that we connected in the way that we did. There are no chance encounters, and I also felt that energy from the moment that we connected, and it's been so beautiful to see your conception of this because I remember talking about it in the initial stages and being so excited because nothing lights me up more than being expanded by people's love stories, and so it's just like surreal to be here however many months or a year later and be in conversation together. So thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Wow, thanks for thanks for coming. And I love that you use the word expanded because that's absolutely the purpose of this platform is to be able to show people that relationships are not always what they appear, but they are really beautiful and really um powerful you know agents in our lives. Um I don't know about you, but I personally have learned so much from my relationships. And in the past year or so in particular, it became really more important to me to be able to not only share what I was learning, but to hear what other people were learning as well. When you think of love and how you've seen that play out, not just in your profession, but maybe also personally, what what are some of the things that come to mind first?

SPEAKER_05 4:21

So it's really relationship with self and how we relate to our own heart and the parts of ourselves, and then from that space, that extends out into how we relate to others and the experiences that we have in relationship to them.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Self was probably the thing that I was working on, I think the most heavily before I met my partner. You know, I was looking at all of the deep things, the demons, the dark places, the shadowy things that I wasn't fully owning in my own person. And as a result, I think a lot of the relationships prior to him were filled with a lot of the same patterns, a lot of the same issues or traumas, and they weren't things that necessarily were wrong with the other people.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

I think it's we always have the right person at the right time for what it is that we need to learn because relationships are such a beautiful initiation into coming home to ourselves if we're open to it. And we all or most of us have been through those experiences where you're like, wasn't I here five years ago? Not about shaming, but what's the common denominator here?

SPEAKER_03 5:40

My mom used to say that all the time when I would complain about bosses. Um, she would say, Well, Nicole, what's the common denominator here? You've been going from job to job and you seem to be finding the same people and having the same issues. And it wasn't until I really took the inventory to say, Okay, maybe I did show up a little bit late. Maybe this was the third time this week that you know a call got lost or dropped and and did the self-work to improve my side of the street, that then my relationships with my bosses began to improve as well.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Yeah, and that's all related because how we relate to ourselves is how we relate to other people, and work is a relationship too. Whether you work for yourself or you work for someone else, how are you relating to your clients? How are you relating to your manager? And oftentimes it it always comes back to our family of origin and those primary experiences that we have that we then live out in our present day.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Yeah. I can think of a few couples from season one where we talked about just the family stories that they had and how it impacted their view of love even be long before they met this person that they would one day fall in love with.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

So we all come from a family of origin, even if we didn't have contact with that family, and then also keeping in mind the generations that come before us as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

I think what you're what you're saying is that it it's not about us. Like we we come into relationships with already having had these pre-existing relationships and parts of ourselves that maybe were our story, maybe they were uh, you know, a family member or an ancestor of some sort, but we come with all of that, whether we know it or not, into partnership.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

And so oftentimes we can be seeking out in our present day what wasn't given to us within our family of origin. We all assume a role.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

And that role that we assume helps the family function. And the question becomes is it healthy functioning? So, with that, in looking back at those early experiences, it really unearths what I can guarantee you with every single client session that I sit in. Like, let's go back to an earlier time. It's more about what perhaps were the feelings that happened, beliefs that were instilled during that time that we're subconsciously carrying with us, and it's informing our present-day relationships.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, I think on a subconscious level, it's it's that story that we've been told, and we in a way don't even recognize that we still believe. Um, that we believe to be true about ourselves, that we believe to be true about the world, and being able to, I think, acknowledge your story is a huge part of becoming a really healthy person to be in relationship with and and what therapy is also really good for. Do you think that therapy is something that's for everyone?

SPEAKER_05 8:58

I may be biased, but yes. I do believe that everyone can benefit from therapy because it gives you a safe space. And so there's a difference to me when someone says running is therapy for me. It's therapeutic for you, but it's not teaching you how to set boundaries. And it gives you languaging and tools that you won't get from a therapeutic experience. You know, I'll hear that a lot. Like, well, my girlfriends are my therapy.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Yeah. They're not trained to be objective, they're not trained to recognize things on a psychological level that may be happening, and they don't know the whole story a lot of the times. They they know what we tell them.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

And also they're showing up with their own projection and transference happens. In finding the right clinician to work with, they can really create the safety to feel like, okay, I have an extra set of eyes here. Right? We need that blind spot monitor, and I'm not gonna take it personally because I know they're doing their own work, and you know, the more work you do on yourself, you can recognize someone's projection versus what's true.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

What's true? I notice you mentioned not taking it personally, and this is something I've always been concerned about in the process of finding a good therapist. How do you break up, make up, find the the one that's right for you if there's one out there? You know, it can be quite a process of maybe very similar to dating, where you're trying to find the right person to be that safe space. So, any tips to help with that?

SPEAKER_05 10:32

Yeah, I mean, I went through that myself as well. Two things happen either people haven't had a therapeutic relationship, so they don't know what to look for, or two, they've had a really negative experience, which is quite often. I mean, how often do you go to a therapist and maybe it wasn't and then you need therapy from the therapy? But like dating, when it's right, you you feel it. I think it's important to know, you know, what you're hoping to get out of the experience. Being clear on that, most therapists offer a 15-minute phone consultation.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

And then you're you're going to be able to tell within that first session you like someone's approach or style, if there's chemistry there. The other thing also to remember is they're modeling a secure relationship, they're lending their nervous system to you. So, what it's designed for is that you're able to take that relationship from session and extend it out into your other relationships so you know what to look for in terms of safety and security. So a lot of the clients.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

I just had a light bulb go off. My therapist would have me like go through a conversation, say I had a conflict, like a conflicting conversation that I knew was coming up. And my therapist knows this. So, what they do is they provide that safe space to go through and have that conversation. I'm then able to go out into the world and have that challenging conversation. It's a little less scary.

unknown 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

So they're exposing you in a safe container and giving you an opportunity for self-expression. Then you can feel a little bit more confident, and then through time, that does that extends and extends.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

So when it comes to a couple and say that they're interested in therapy, is the right time to come before there are issues? Should you come individually? Should you come when there's a big problem that they need to have a mediation for?

SPEAKER_05 12:28

It depends on the couple. So I see a lot of individuals who are in partnership and have never been to couples therapy, or who are entering partnership. And so they're bringing their partner into their own experience. Maybe their partner seeing someone else individually. Now, in terms of coming as a couple into therapy, there's a few different ways to do it. One, perhaps you do want to do it in the beginning or before a move-in or before marriage, in order to make sure that you're both on the same page and that you have the tools and sort of moving forward. And then I think where most people land is okay, we're having some difficulty functioning on our own, and we can use an extra set of eyes here to help us make sure that we're communicating with one another in a way where we both understand one another.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

The communication piece I feel is the key. And it's really funny because I think for a long time I rejected that because it seemed like a cop-out whenever couples would say, Oh, communication, that's what makes it work. But you realize really quickly when you are in partnership, especially, how communicating with a therapist can improve the language that you have with the people around you.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Yeah, that's such a good point because we have our perception of ourselves and how we communicate and how that lands, but how was it received? So there's what I say and my intent behind it, and then how it landed for someone else. And this is true in all relationships. Within the context of therapy and working with a therapist, what's really beautiful is when someone brings in conversations from their relationship, we're able to unpack that and peel it away and say, like, okay, well, what about this? And begin to teach them modeling for more effective communication. So, for example, something that I often tell clients is when you are approaching someone about something that doesn't sit well with you, make sure that you're highlighting the behavior and not them as an individual and how that behavior impacts you. And that's the first key to alleviating some of that personalization, right? Because anyone, myself included, as a trained professional, if someone's and you always yeah, you language is oh, you know, it's a bomb in the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

I personally am learning how not to use we language. It's not a me we thing. I'm learning to say, no, you like these things are you things, they're not me things, so I don't need to be putting myself in that space with you.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

The right support through community literature, through podcasts like this. I think of podcasts almost like an introduction to like group therapy.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:25

It's like almost like being in a support group in a way where like if if you were too nervous to do that, podcasts give you the opportunity to be exposed and say, I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

And then maybe through that experience of listening to someone else's story, it you say, okay, I'll go take the class or I'll go to the workshop. Maybe I'll book that consultation call.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Yeah, or have that conversation. I know I've learned a lot so much from you know the couples already this season. I feel so much more free because I know there's a community that that's out there. I've got the therapist support to be able to talk that conversation through before I have it with the person. And and you're right, there is this sort of when you have your team and when you have your support system, it really does. It takes a village to stay in a healthy relationship, it to stay married, to say they definitely say it with parenting, but it takes a village, I think, to really be a healthy, happy human being in a world like this.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Absolutely, and we we're wired for connection. And I feel like when it comes to something such as relationships or mental health, there's such a stigma around seeking support. It's not coming from a place of like you're broken. It's coming from a place of I can find expansion, support, and connection with others.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yes. And I can see it in you. You really do have this gift, and you have this sort of calming, naturally generous like effect on people that makes them feel safe. And you know, that's something I wish everybody has in their relationships, whether you're single, you can find a therapist who gives you that.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

Thank you so much for saying that. That feels so good to hear. And I I completely agree for many clients that work with me when we sit down and we look at the relationships in their life that are reciprocal or safe or stable. Sometimes they don't have it. They haven't ever had it. And part of my work with them is providing and modeling that safety and security so they they have that reinforcement once a week, and then they can start expecting that same treatment and behavior and consistency with people in their extended world.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

I think as we become a more therapized culture and it becomes very common for people to be in therapy, my hope is that there is an extension of that person who can then do that for other people. You know, to be able to say, he's not just having a bad day, or he's not just always like this, you know, she's not just never reliable, or all these things. It's actually informed by something, and we can be a lot more empathetic and more loving towards co-workers, towards our friends, our family members, our partners. Like we can actually start to understand that they're playing out a story sometimes, and if you give them five minutes, they might come back with an apology, or even you can have extend that sort of grace to them enough to be able to say, Hey, what you said came off a little like this. Is are you okay? You know, to be able to ask those loving questions in all of our relationships.

SPEAKER_05 18:39

The more compassion we have for ourselves, the more we can extend it to others, and that's exactly what you're touching upon. And the more we're able to recognize our own shadow and shadows and the parts of ourselves that we deem unacceptable, then we aren't so judgmental about other people's shadow rearing up. Not to accept toxic behavior, but come from a place of, hmm, that's interesting. I understand it. Let me approach this with some curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Yeah, yeah. Or even if I don't understand it, I can still approach it with curiosity instead of you know automatically making judgments about how the person feels, or maybe that judgment that you make comes back to you, and it's like, now you believe something about yourself that's not true and was not informed by anything that you said or did. It was just part of their reaction to, you know, to a circumstance. What are some of the common narratives that you think people get wrong about relationships?

SPEAKER_05 19:43

That it's about finding a person who can meet all of your needs.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yeah. I don't know why we still believe that one. That it's because it's just been sold to us.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

Yeah. Through fairy tale, through look at any TV series or movie, the way I reflect back on the movies of my teens and early 20s in TV series, Hello Sex in the City. Yeah. Um, is completely different now after years of self-reflection and and you know, development. So I think it's that's why a podcast like this is so important in having community and listening to people's stories because most likely what you're seeing is probably most sometimes are really toxic.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Oh, yeah. Carrie and Big Toxic people.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

And then I look back and I go, Aiden's great.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

To point out is that certain types don't always work for everyone.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

I think sometimes therapy, specifically talk therapy, gets really bad rap because not every approach or modality is gonna work for every individual. Of course, we're complex beings that have so many experiences that we're coming into the therapy room with. Imagine if everyone, like you're saying, they had this trauma informed lens, we would relate to each other so differently. So I think that that's important. And then, yes, there are so many different approaches and modalities out there, right? There's CBT, which is more of a behavioral therapy. Um, there's somatic therapy where you're getting into your body and it's not so much talking, there's trauma reprocessing like EMDR. I work. With parts therapy. So I'm a relational coach and therapist that works from the lens of systems thinking. So looking at the whole system. And I really like working with parts because when we can get to know each part of ourself and how that part is showing up in our life, it takes the shame away of feeling that there's something wrong with us or that we did something wrong. Versus that's interesting, this part showing up. What was that reaction really about? Why does why does a part of me react in that way?

SPEAKER_03 22:43

When you decided to take this on as a profession, I wanted to ask you kind of your journey to coming to being here.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Yeah, that's a great question because I don't know that I chose it. I mean, I ultimately did. I believe they say that therapists, like great therapists, are born or developed in their family of origin, and I believe that. I was a highly attuned, intuitive, sensitive child, and I assumed the role of being the family therapist. It's a role that just really felt good to me. And the realization came to me through a very long and hard journey. Actually, it was interesting because my freshman year of college, I went to a college that I was sort of, you know, directed to go to. It wasn't my dream school, and they didn't have the program that I wanted to do. And one of the classes I had in my first year of college was marriage and family.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Wait, that was a class in college? I would have loved that class.

SPEAKER_05 23:45

It was, I mean, it was amazing. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Do they still teach it? Can I go back and retake this?

SPEAKER_05 23:50

Probably. I should look it up. I've been curious myself. I loved this class. And then my other love was horses growing up. From the first time I encountered animals, that was my first love. And so had I known that there was a modality called equine-assisted psychotherapy, I probably would be exactly where I am now. Yet the journey to get there was like so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

You mentioned equine therapy. I'm excited for people to get to know about this. Can you talk about what that is and really how that's a therapeutic process for people that maybe they haven't considered?

SPEAKER_05 24:29

So there are many different forms of equine therapy. Previous to doing equine assisted psychotherapy, I taught disabled children and adults with equine therapy, and that was more on the horse and working with different skill sets. And then what I work with now is equine assisted psychotherapy. So a lot of the work is groundwork in the arena with the horse or horses, and it's very experiential. And so how this works is I run groups with the horses. Horses have so much to teach us because, in order to survive in the wild, they're naturally hyper-vigilant. Their life depends upon it. So a horse's brain and a human's brain that's been through trauma and has PTSD are actually quite similar. So the resonance that someone finds in the presence of a horse is healing within itself. Yet when we combine that with this therapeutic modality and facilitate, it is amazing the healing that could happen.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

I think that's really incredible. And hopefully, you know, we'll be able to link in the show notes where people can find inquine therapy near them because it's probably something they hadn't considered might be really helpful in just developing that therapeutic language within themselves.

SPEAKER_05 25:58

No therapist or coach can fix you or fix a marriage or fix a relationship. It's rather they're there to hold the space and ask you the questions that you wouldn't necessarily ask yourself and desensitize some of those experiences that are most likely informing the day-to-day.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Yeah, I love the show Couples Therapy. Yes. I watched the seasons multiple times. Um it's very true when you look at some of the couples on the show, they always come in with something that's more than what the problem is, right? And what I believe that Orna does so beautifully is to kind of set the set the issues aside so that the couples as individuals, but also as a couple and communicating with each other have space to be able to hear, really hear what's being said on the other side.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

Yeah. And that's part of that modeling of of active listening, of effective communication. What what is the impact that my words have on another?

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah, that's a really interesting thing because I think usually what the narrative you hear is there is one person who's all for therapy and doing this kind of work and being self-reflective and self-aware, and there's the other partner who is just doing their own thing. How do you bridge that gap when you feel like there's like there's just that resistance from the other person to do this kind of work?

SPEAKER_05 27:34

Well, in terms of them coming in as a couple and they don't want to come in, or if an individual, so oftentimes what I'll have is working with an individual and they're in a partnership and they don't feel like their partner's doing the work.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

And of course, that's going to impact them, right? You know, you can't want something for someone else. There has to be a willingness, and getting really curious about their resistance. What about going to a therapist do you feel resistant about? I think it's in how you approach it to someone because there oftentimes when people um in partnership, the topic of therapy comes up is like you need to go to therapy or we need to go to therapy to like fit, and it's like very much in a heightened state.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:25

Versus if you were to go to your partner and say, I'm feeling A, B, and C, and I feel that if we had support in learning how to better like that's such a softer way of approaching something.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

And it's not a you thing, it's not a me thing, it's a it's a we thing, it's a we thing.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

It's not about doing what's right for us, it's about doing what's right for the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Yeah. That transition, honestly, is really hard for some people. Yeah. You have to sometimes adjust and start living a little bit differently than you would have if it was just you. You know, I remember when I first got my dog for the first time and there was a company happy hour or something, and I wanted to go to that after work, but then I realized I had this brand new puppy that was home all alone and missed me all day and needed to go out and pee, and I needed to be that person for my dog. And you know, it's the same thing when we come into relationships, each one I think asks something a little bit different of us. But being able to make the space and adjustments to accommodate, you know, the needs of someone else, uh, as well as your own is is uh is tricky. It's not natural to us, I think.

SPEAKER_05 29:41

And what you're really speaking to is commitment because when you're in devotion to someone or something, we're willing to put aside the inconvenience to prioritize the overall picture. Uh you know, the same thing happened to me when I got my dog. I had never had a dog on my own. Grew up with dogs, grew up with horses, absolutely love animals. And um, the first six months were really rough. I remember I called my dad and I was like, he's like, How's it going with the dog? And I said, This is so hard. This is so difficult. Getting up in the morning, all the things. And so I said to my dad, this is so hard, but it's so much love. And he said to me, That's what love is. That's commitment. I'm like, oh, I've never been in love before then because I love this dog more than anybody.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

And I was never willing to do the work before. It's so so true.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

I always remind myself of that experience. So it's so much work, it's so much love. But when you're really devoted to the path, then that allows us to put aside our ego and say, how might me leaning into this perceived inconvenience enrich the relationship and the experience?

SPEAKER_03 31:00

That's really good. Yeah, I think there was uh one of the couples on the show, Felicia, she made a comment about when you have a passion for something, you'll inconvenience yourself over and over in order to see it through.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Um when you're really connected to your why and anything that you do, that is what takes you through the marathon of a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Especially as a couple, I think that's one thing that's important as a couple to kind of figure out why you're together early.

SPEAKER_05 31:30

Absolutely. Also surprised, oftentimes so many people don't they don't know. They don't know, they don't ask themselves. That's why individual work is so important before you're in partnership, if you're able to, because you learn so much about yourself, and it allows you to have a so much more easable time out there because you know what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah, yeah, and that's a pretty interesting topic because that was one thing that um Allie in this uh season mentioned was she also did some kind of manifesting work before she met her partner. And when I tell you that her partner Chuck is kind of a unicorn of a person for her, do you think that it's possible to write it down on a piece of paper, put it on a vision board to call in somebody to be in partnership with?

SPEAKER_05 32:22

I think those are the they can be the first steps to calling it in. Absolutely. You know, and everyone's different. We all have a different journey in terms of divine timing. Um, so I think it can start with that intention and um the list or the visualization. Yet sometimes those things can be the very things that prevent us from, you know, when it comes like we have to ask ourselves like, do we want a great love or do we want what we think great love is? And if we really want a great love story, it might not show up exactly as we envision it. And so we have to be careful to hold it lightly.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

I've seen it play out um so many times for couples where you know they go to therapy as like a last resort. And I just wish that they had the tools as individuals to be able to address the the needs and the issues that they're inevitably gonna come up against because they're in relationship. And also that relationships are designed to bring this stuff up. Yeah, that is the thing that I think once I got that out of my head, the fairy tale, the feel-good, the ride off into the sunset. Once I got comfortable with feeling like, oh, I'm not the best at this, or like, ah, I'm so annoyed. Why am I annoyed? Like, you know, once I got used to that kind of conversation within myself, I was able to see my partner as somebody who was helping me.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

Yeah, they're not sabotaging your journey, they're elevating your growth. So, something we can ask ourselves is how might this trigger or this person or this situation be supporting my growth? Because we have to understand the more that we can hold the duality within ourselves of the light and the shadow, we can also hold that in our relation to others. Yet, so often everyone wants to get to the light.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah, well, they think love is just the light, but love is both. Love is the light. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the shadow is not so scary. It is the resistance to looking at the shadow that keeps us stuck.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Having a partner when you do find that person who can hold that space, can be that safe place. When you look at the shadow, you feel like you're looking at it together. And even though those conversations are hard, even though they are so intense. Sometimes you can't find any light, and it's like being in a dark room and there's furniture and you're bumping into stuff. There is such a peace and a comfort with no when you know that the shadow is not the problem, the shadow is part of the relationship, and it's and it's there so that it can be brought to light, so that you both can grow and heal and become the best versions of yourself that your partner really wants that for you, and you want that for them, and that's it. Yeah, there's no issues, it's just that you want what's best.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

And that's such a gift to have someone that you feel can walk beside you, vice versa. That's really what partnership is.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

Yeah, yeah. You are a lot less alone when you're navigating the dark. And it's great to have them in the light too. Those mountaintop moments, like those are amazing to have somebody to cheer you on and celebrate. But when you're in the dark, that's when you really, really need that partnership.