S2 Ep 7 Mario & Misha "You Will Always Have A Part of Me"

In today’s episode, we’re joined by Michael (also known as Misha) and Mario, whose love story began when they went clubbing on Halloween. After just six months of dating, Misha proposed, and now, after a two-year engagement, the couple is planning their wedding for 2026. They have a three decade age gap and their story is one for the ages.
It’s a conversation full of warmth, wisdom, and insights on love in all its forms. We cover:

• The challenges and joys of dating in middle age
• Navigating coming out and finding acceptance with parents
• Why a quick proposal can lead to a lasting engagement
• The power of traditional weddings and vows

Referenced in this episode:
"Vows: The Modern Genius of an Ancient Rite" book by Cheryl Mendelsen
"The Last Of Us: Season 1 Episode 3" 
"Meaning of Marriage" by Timothy Keller & Kathy Keller

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And I'm thinking, but wait, the reason why we want to go back traditionally is because that's what makes it so magical. The fact that it is a whole crazy proposition. Who does this? Like that's part of what makes it human, is that it is there is an element of faith. There is an element of banking on something for which you cannot know the outcome. You have to create it. And so I we think the traditional vowels sort of situate that sacred bigger than us magic about it.

SPEAKER_05 0:40

Welcome to the Love Department, the heartwarming podcast exploring the nature of love and relationships. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart. And if this is your first time joining us today, welcome. You've picked a great episode to start with. Michael and Mario met on a Halloween, but Cupid was up to his usual mischief instead. Michael, who also goes by Misha, proposed after just six months, and after a two-year engagement, they're in the middle of planning their wedding for 2026. In this episode, we talked about loving your parents in times that they need grace, dating in middle age, rediscovering yourself through your relationship, and the power of living your life out loud and loving who you love. This is an episode with a lot of heart and soul, and so I'd like to welcome to the love department Misha and Mario.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I'm from Western Pennsylvania, a little small town called Cannonsburg outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Preacher's kid. I studied theology and philosophy, and um I have a master's of divinity degree. I've been in New York for 31 years now.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Can't believe I'm old enough to say that.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

So well, so I'm from Peru, um from Arequipa, and from a very, very like small town in Arequipa. The name is Alca. It's a beautiful, beautiful place. Um it is very sacred for me. Um it's it's surrounded by mountains and a lot of green at the age of um 13 and my sister was 14. My mother, a single mother. She came home one day with the news that we got a visa to come to the United States. It was just like really life-changing for us. It was just like everything that I watched on the movies, on TV, I was like CNA on reality. And I got my bachelor's in accounting. At the moment I'm completing my master's in taxation.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

What you can't hear over the audio is their 32-year age difference. It's something that, as I spoke to them further, I realized really defied the lines of ageism bias. There is a connection between them that is a bridge in more ways than one. The night they met, for instance, they both said they felt the pool to go clubbing. They landed on a spot called the Kew, a popular gay club in Hill's Kitchen. We couldn't help but note the irony that when I interviewed them, it was also Halloween weekend, exactly two years since that magical connection first ignited.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Actually, like this is Halloween weekend, you know, sort of leading into Halloween. So it was this exact time two years ago. It's interesting because the backstory to that magical night. Yeah, you can't really where I had been single for a long time and I was really, I was really feeling being single. You know what I mean? I was like, look, I'm not wanting to marry anyone, but can I just like meet someone? Like I did not want to go on the apps. I was like really against, like, just from what I heard about the apps, it just sounded like a nightmare. I wanted to meet someone face to face, you know? And I was planning to go out to the queue. I just wanted to have a fun Halloween night. And I remember I just had this moment where I was thinking, am I too old for this? So I Googled. I Googled and I said, Is 53 too old to be going out to a gay club? And the result immediately rendered, yes. You're too old, leave it to the young, you're over there. And I was like, oh my God, am I? I thought, oh shoot. And so part of me thought, yeah, let me just leave the clubs to the youth. But then I thought, wait a minute, I still got it. I want to go and just have fun. So I dressed up in my, you know, same old sexy sailor outfit. I called a couple of my club friends. And they met me there. I had a good time, and at some point during that night, I met the Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

On Halloween, I was just not sure if I was gonna go out on Saturday night. I was very undecided. Like, should I go? Should I not go? And then I remember I told my sister, because like she texted me that she was in Party City. I I said, Oh, yes, maybe I should really go out. Like, it's just it's Halloween. She just bought me this Spider-Man costume, and I was just like, I will take that, whatever. But like that night, I've kind of felt something like in myself. Like something like was telling me like you have to go out. Because like I have worked all day long, so I was very tired, very uh exhausted, but I still like something was telling me the voice in my head was telling me like you have to go out, like just go out, go out. I just felt like oh my god, the excitement to go out. And I don't know, like I just felt like I was like I was gonna meet someone, yeah. Because I always had that idea in in my mind that like people meet their lovers or like someone special on like big holidays. So to me, like I had that in my mind at that time, and I was like, okay, so I'm going out. Like you're about to meet like someone very special.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Like, in a way, I agree with Google, and I was already living my life in step with the Google answer, in a sense, I want to say. Because going out to the club is not and was not like my regular sort of thing. It's just that I wanted to go out on Halloween. Like, I won and I remember I had gone out the year before in Halloween, it was fun. I just thought Halloween going out gay clubbing sounds fun. And so I wanted to go. And so I did.

SPEAKER_05 7:29

Call me superstitious. But I think Mario might be onto something here. Holidays have a way of bringing people outside, even those that might have stayed home. So if you're single, don't let a Labor Day weekend beach trip with your friends or a holiday party invitation go without some serious consideration. For these two, it was a fantastic night out with friends. And in choosing to put themselves out there, met the love of their life. Now, not every meeting goes this way, but for those of you who want to meet someone organically, consider putting on your dancing shoes and getting out there. But Mario was becoming concerned that he hadn't yet met someone special.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

The first couple hours in the night, I was just upset. Of course, there were like a couple people like who like tried to approach to me, but I was not just interested. I was just like, no, not you. So the nightclub was like three floors, and I was we were with my friends on the second floor, and then I usually like to go to the third floor because it's more like spacious, and I liked more the music they played, and that's where he was on that third floor.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

You remind me, and it I mean, I don't know. In a way, it seems silly now, but I remember I was so excited to tell this part of the story originally. So I was with my two friends, and we were together the whole time, or for the most part, and at one point they went to get drinks, and I went off exploring on my own. So I was down on the second floor, like it's very, very crowded. So I was down on the sixth, second floor having a blast. I was just dancing and doing my thing on my own with other people, and so I got lost for a while. And so Eldar came to find me on the second floor, and he was not happy. And he said, You know, Misha, where were you? We we couldn't find you, you left. Like, don't leave without telling her. So I'm getting yelled at I'm like, oh please, you know. I mean, I've been going to clubs for years. So I I mean, we were just standing there together when he walked by.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

I don't remember really like seeing his face or just like his whole himself, you know, you know, because the lights were like dim and a little dark. But I think like what it attracted to me was like his energy, like his vibe. Like some people say, like, oh, you met your soulmate, you're like automatically like attracted to that person. So I like that's my theory. Like, I just felt like a just an attraction to him, like right away. It's just like that night was just I don't know, it felt really like a dream. I know it sounds like a fairy tale, and that's just the first first impression, like just the energy, like I don't know, just like we were just like pulled into each other, like yes, I can explain.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, true, true. I was there. Yeah, we connected, and we then it was just like you know, natural dancing. But I remember the conversation, how it went. There is what's your name, where are you from, and do you like cycling.

SPEAKER_05 10:57

You can put a pen in that cycling bit. We'll come back to that later when we get to their proposal story. You know, it's funny in listening to them describe their first meeting, I can't help but feel the same rush of butterflies that I felt when meeting my partner. That inexplicable excitement, which also feels familiar and comforting. Something that they said they felt right away.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

It felt like I knew him before, like it felt like you're not a stranger, like you're someone that I know.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I wonder if your couples that you talk to say this or admit it. I feel silly in a way. Like I stand by everything we're saying, but I feel silly in the sense that like I wish that it didn't sound as cliche as it does, but it's just true. Like, I almost am embarrassed hearing it's almost like, okay, so many people say, Oh, I knew, and I felt like we knew. But I really did, like, there was a moment where he looked, I'll never forget, he looked and it was the immediate look. There was a recognition, there was just the rightness of fit, all those cliche things. It was really true. So, anyway, is that familiar to you?

SPEAKER_05 12:11

Like, absolutely. I think you know, everybody meets in different ways, and I think part of the reason I started this podcast is because I was just like, What is that?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah, what's that thing?

SPEAKER_05 12:21

What is that thing that we just sort of tap into? We all come into relationship with preconceived ideas, experience to back up those ideas or to repeat those ideas, and yet there's this common notion that there's like one person who's gonna do that thing that just clears those clouds and cobwebs and like makes it makes it make sense why it never worked out with anybody else. For Mario, this was his first relationship. Before meeting Misha, Mario had only just come out two years before. And he said that in those two years after coming out, it was some of the hardest years of his life. But I think it's the same courage that he had in choosing to come out to his friends and family that also helped him discover himself through the lens of this relationship. It also meant that he came into the relationship without any jadedness from a failed past. In a way, he had an innocent view of love, that the fairy tale could be real. And because that idea and belief in him was so protected and nurtured, it allowed Mario to approach this relationship with that same optimism.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

On my side, um he's like my first lover, like my first relationship. So he's almost like my first everything. I was still in the closet in 2021, and in June of 2021, I decided to finally come out, like to my family, to my mother first, and then to my family. And I came out on the day on on Priday, like on June 27, I think. Um because I just wanted to be like a special day for me to remember. The whole uh rest of the year of 2021 was just really, really hard. Um my mom like was not really accepting, you know. Um, she was not happy with the news. Um she didn't spoke to me like for two, three months. Uh my sister was really supportive. She was fine and happy for me. And so I got into the ops, I was like talking to guys, I was just exploring my sexuality. I met my friends, my gay friends, and we just started to go out on the weekends and party. We called them the squad. We called them the squad, and there's also a long story to that, but that's for another topic. And then 2022 was like hard, like very tough years for me because I was just out of the class, and college was hard. And college was very stressful, and I also had a part-time job, a lot of family issues, this and that. It was just very stressful to handle everything. I always like say um to myself, like that the day that I meet someone, like I just like I really wanted like to be that like love at first sight. Like, I don't want to meet like someone like special, like on the apps, like no shame to that. But I just wanted to be that fairy tale.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

I can tell you're such a romantic.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Very good.

SPEAKER_05 16:15

And what I appreciate about that, and I love that you said that you know, this is your first big relationship, is like sometimes people think that it you have to have a lot of relationships, yeah, to in order to know. And then the way that you know coming out for you went. I love that you get to experience relationships in this way now and to have had that moment of like pure romance, meeting somebody and just like that magic. A lot of couples miss out on that in so many ways, I think, because they, you know, they allow either the harshness of coming out to really rob them of that, or on the apps, and it just becomes very transactional all the time, which you know, sometimes those relationships are important too to like healing us and you know helping us grow. But I love that you get to experience like all the joys now of being in this this relationship in a healthy way and in a romantic way, it's actually.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah, I mean it's really such a privilege to experience.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

From first meeting, things moved fast for these two. Like six months fast. But that didn't mean they weren't going at a pace that wasn't right for them. By now, you can tell that they are both very thoughtful people who didn't want to rush things when it came to their relationship, even if there were some early doubts on their age gap.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

I said a uh phrase in Spanish that is Te quiero, which that translates to I love you, but not like that type of aloe. It's just like the I love you that you say to someone special, like you your best friend, you know. So I said that first to him, and then like you reply back, say I love you.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Sorry to disappoint if it does, but it didn't have the like wow, there's the first time hearing it, like it had had in past relationship because it was foregone conclusion at this point, like the punch of what that initial phrase would convey, we were already, or I was already experiencing it.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

Yeah, and it's also a very powerful responsibility, and I can imagine you guys had a lot of naysayers, but I can't imagine they feel that way for long, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Maybe, I mean, maybe, maybe not, but early on we adopted, which was actually there was there was a couple people recommended this, and it's interesting, but we really adopted this commitment to protecting our relationship by which we meant we have to focus on our responsibility and co-creating whatever this is going to be in as responsible as a way as we can. I mean, a lot of the outside feedback was very positive. I mean, literally strangers saying, Oh my god, you know, all that kind of stuff. And we had support from friends, but we weren't taking in like whatever threats, questions of the age difference would be. I mean, I I never forget that. And you know, I I have my own sort of internalized wanderings about it, but we were clear to protect against that and really focus on what do you have to do to build a responsible relationship.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah, so I think um the age difference was never like an issue. Well, the first couple months of dating, um, like we really were like isolated from like not like ice super isolated, but like I feel like we protected our relationship like so much like the first couple months. And I I was like the one I think like the one like who wanted to be that way first, because like you were good about that. I had like like uh fears, you know. Yeah, that's true. I was like a little scared of family feedback of my of my mom. I was like who wanted my first relationship to be like kind of isolated at the beginning and very protected. And I said to myself, um, I'm gonna do everything that it's within my power to protect my relationship. Like no one is gonna say anything about it, like no one will try to get into it, like nothing, like that is not happening in my relationship. Or because I I've seen that the family sometimes has too much influence, especially in Latin family. Sorry to jump in.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

I want to say this is this is one of the big um, I don't know, it's something that I admire so much about you, and yeah, some other friends we talk about a lot. Mario's basic strategy and being patient with his mom and family has been just the most amazing thing. Because now, fast forward, we're closed, I'm fully accepted. Yes, we vacationed together this summer, having a blast. Yes, like we did things. So it's like, wow, we did that, not from you demanding it, not from you coming out with some strong. It was just a slow, gradual you being patient. I'm thinking, wow, I wish I knew that in my youth. Like I wish, I wish my generation of coming out knew to be patient. We demanded because it was different. Time and there was a kind of trauma coming out, it was painful. It was like my formative years being gay, even dating wasn't even it was nowhere near like the way we're talking about this now. And it's interesting in this moment, I'm realizing that's one way that I make sense of the age difference. In a way, it's like, wow, I now like it's a first for me too, even though I've had many relationships. This is the first time I get to approach a relationship being mature, like whatever, like in the deepest sense of the word, I've learned maturity the long hard way. One of the things I said early on, and I kept saying it, and I guess this was an early sign of this. I said, wow, I noticed this is the first time in all of my dating that what's most important to me is I want to be a good partner. I want to be a healthy partner, and I felt like I knew what that was. That was a first for me. So there's some sense to the age difference. It's like it's nobody's business. But like my journey, it just happens to correlate around age and development, and I'm now ready for what his generation, he's ready coming out the gate. Yeah. There's a very interesting thing to be in love and couple the way we are with the age difference. Because bear with the parallel, parents have a version of this where parents get to revisit things in their youth. They get to revisit and access wisdom from their experience for their children as they age. We get access to the same thing, but I'm not a parent. He's not my kid. It's a real you feel me? But it's like the the value of it, like a parent would have to put their stuff in check to realize look, your young adult is developing. Let them develop and nurture. So I realize, wow, I'm in the same position where as the loving partner, I have to do what I can to nurture his stages. Right. And in both cases, in both cases, it's not like the older person has the monopoly on wisdom. The truth is, there's wisdom that his there's wisdom and stability that his generation has, not just his generation, his cultural experience as an immigrant coming here. He brought things to the relationship where it's like that was new for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I would say that like I wanted um our relationship to be isolated at least for the couple months. Like I was like, how does a relationship even work? Like everything was just so new to me, like the first weeks of dating and going out and going to dinner on days. I was like, I don't want to hear no one right now, I don't want to talk to no one right now, I don't want to have hear any opinions, nothing. Like I just want to figure figure this out on my own. That time that I needed for myself and for my and for our relationship. Uh like no one has said anything, like no one like they all were very like supportive. And I feel like that was really like that time gave us like strength to figure out so many things in our relationship and to build like a very like strong base for whatever we we will have to face later on.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

And so they spent a lot of quality time together, going on dates in the park or to museums, short trips together. Sometimes Misha would pick Mario up from college with hot chocolate and drive him to work or home in the evenings. Anything just to spend time together. Proof that if someone is interested, they'll make the time. Time. The one gift of life that is not promised, and so to be treasured, especially with those we love.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Quality time is our thing. We spend so much time together, and it's just it's enjoyable, it doesn't feel stifling. Again, that's a first for me. Like in the past, there was there was always a sort of trying to fix the incongruence of either affection or sex or time together. We fit with a lot of time together, the quality time, and all of that is still there. But what I'm thinking is the core romanticism that we're talking about, that's there, that's a quality, but that's not the main thing. The main thing is we're doing life together, period. Like in every way, he's fully committed and down with the whole journey. Mysteries notwithstanding. It's like we don't know what's gonna be, but like we're on the journey for that, and me too. Like that we're doing life together, like finances, career, growth, fears, worries, inner psychic, like all of that. That's what we're doing. And a big, big thing. My mom died a year and a half ago. He was there, you know? Like he did that's how he got to meet my family, you know. And you think, oh no, like he hadn't met my family at all yet. They met him in the context of, you know, my mom had a stroke. Um, you know, we got the news from my sister while we were driving, and I was like, I need to go home. He's like, okay, he was staying here while I made the drive all the way back to Pittsburgh. I made it in time to watch my mom die with all of us surrounding her, and then he flew in the next day. He flew into Pittsburgh, he was there for the whole rest of the week through everything to the family intensity. And what's interesting is it wasn't about him. Like he wasn't needing to get approved. He was just there supporting me and my family. They love him. Like they love, we spent lots of visits going back to Pittsburgh with my dad now. We do weekends with my dad and nephews and sisters, and he's part of the family.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

I never really been to like a funeral or anything related to that because when I moved to the USA, my grandma died like three months after, which like that's um that's like a like a scar that I really have in my heart forever. And then it just like when his mom passed away, like that feeling that feeling, like just it kind of just came back to me, and seeing like the person that you love like really going through something like that, it was really, really, really like heartbreaking for me. And what I just wanted to do is just be there for him the first day when he left to Pittsburgh. I literally stayed here by myself with our cat, and I was just crying. Like, and I've never told him that, but like I was just crying because I I was just like remembering like all the like the pain when someone like dies, and I was just crying and crying and crying, and but like I had to be like strong for him to like and be very supportive for him, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

That's so beautiful to love someone so much that you feel their pain.

SPEAKER_05 29:34

And I think this conversation around death is such an important one because we really feel that same sort of agony when someone we love dies. Like there's nothing like that feeling except to love someone, you know. And there's a parallel here, I think, with the age difference where you know Meesha's a lot closer to death age-wise, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Chronologically, that's one of our thousands and thousands in little jokes. We would joke, we like one of our ongoing jokes about that is you know, well, one day you'll be pushing me in a wheelchair, and then we say, we don't know, I might be pushing you.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I'm really not afraid of that. Um, but which at the beginning of our relationship, like I don't think like I ever confessed that to him, but like that was like my biggest fear. And till this day it's still like uh like a fear that's just lingering like around my mind, but like I'm trying to get over that, and I'm and I'm trying to approach to that with like a different mindset. The fact that like one day he has to go or I gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Wait, it's like that scene, this my favorite scene in what was the um The Last of Us. The Last of Us. Remember the gay couple thread? You know what I'm gonna say? Yes. When the the tough dude who was a survivalist, he said, I'm getting chills to think about it. He said, I was never afraid until meeting you.

unknown 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

So in other words, now I mean you get it. That's what you're saying. It's like now that I'm in love with you and we have this life together, I'm finally afraid for the first time. They think, wow, so that that's what I hear you say. And that scene was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

This scene in The Last of Us, we are referring to, is probably one of the greatest love stories ever told. The episode could be a standalone. So if you are a romantic or a survivalist, I highly recommend, and we will link the details in the show notes so that you can check it out. We'll be right back with more of the love department after a short break. Before the break, we learned that quality time is one of the things that is most important to Misha and Mario when it came to building the foundations of their relationship. And if you remember from that Halloween night when Misha asked Mario, do you like cycling? Now he was ready to ask his lover a different question.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Give me that picture.

SPEAKER_05 32:27

Oh, there's a good picture.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, can we move or just give me one second? You hold that and I'll bring them. There it is. Oh, he brought it.

SPEAKER_05 32:34

Wait, is this the purpose?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, so I'll explain.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

I see bike pants.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Which by the way, it was cycling, but what's funny is this was six months after we met, which I'm thinking that sounds crazy now. But back then, we thought we had waited. We thought we were going slow, but this was not slow. There's nothing about this that was slow. But we knew like I knew, not in an explicit way, but you know how you know before you propose it if the fit is there, Russia, not gonna ask. I planned the whole thing in my head on my own without telling anyone. And I remember that was the little post that I did on Instagram. I said something like, uh, for once in my life, I had no confidants. Because I always have at least one confidant, you know. No, I had no one who knew. And I bought the ring, keeping it a secret was like, ah, but I did it. And we had we had a weekend with two very good friends of ours, a couple in Connecticut. We stayed at their house over the weekend, and I had done their wedding a couple years before. And so they're big fans of our relationships, and they're talking about us, but I'm just having to hold the secret that in my mind, the day we left from that weekend, I was planning on concocting this whole little bike ride in Central Park. I was gonna take the hill really fast and get up ahead of him. And then when he came down the hill, I'd be on my knees with the ring. So it went to plan. And when I got to the bottom of the hill, I just found these two random girls. And I was like, listen, I said, I'm about to prose with my partner. Can you take a picture? They're like, Oh my god, yes! And they said, What do you want? I said, video, pictures, whatever you can get. So one of them took many pictures, they got a video, and that was that. So I proposed cycling. So that was the proposal. We don't have much news at this point, we just know we're shooting for May of 2026. It seems far off, but I realize it's not.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

I was just like wanted someone to propose to me. I've never like uh saw that coming like in my life until like I met him. Um like that idea of proposing someone or getting married, like that was like never like never in my mind. Like it was just never. Like I know like I wanted to get married one day, but it was just not really like too familiar until I met Michael. And then when I met Michael, like I knew like right well, he is definitely the one. Like the feeling was just extremely strong. Like just oh my god, everything just felt like oh god, like he's just so amazing. He's just like the best, the best man out there. And I knew like right well that he was going to propose me like at some point. Like I knew it. He's gonna do it one day or soon or later, but he's gonna do it. We were like on it was like already six months, and at that time, at that point, like we already like knew each other so well. We were extremely committed to each other. Uh we had so many plans for our for our future. We just moved in, and we're I don't know, like it just felt like like we were together like for so long. And it was just like about time.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

It's interesting. This is and this is my friend really he asked such good questions. He helped me to get clear on this, and I loved it. Like, why so soon? And why so long? The proposal was last year, and we're talking about 2026. Why so long? To me, like I like experiencing the proposal as like sort of the first vows. It's like it's a commitment to the relationship, and now we have to live into it and grow into it. I don't know if that makes sense. But it's like the commitment's big because when we've had little fights or worries, whatever, this is a bold commitment. These rings and the commitment, it's kind of like the pre-practice of marriage.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Because you don't know if there's the next level that sort of happens when you get engaged.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

And I like that, I like that it's long because it's kind of a ritualistic testament to my belief in time. Like it takes time to develop anything good, and so it's like the long, slow proposal is my commitment. We have a lot still to figure out, yeah. Marriage is sealed by real assurance, real work, real anyway. So, like I like that it was kind of early but long because the commitment was clear, but the growing into needed some time.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

I really don't have like an answer for like why too soon. Like I really stand by like there's there's really no answer to that. Like, I just think that every relationship is different.

SPEAKER_05 37:49

Being vulnerable with your partner is the best way to forge the kind of relationship that lasts. Because if your partner can't be there to support you in your weakness or through your faults or disagreements, I have to ask if they're really gonna love all of you. After all, it's those tender places that really deserve the most love. When I asked them about how wedding planning was going, I tease them about any disagreements that might have surfaced in the process.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

We actually don't have a lot of fights or a lot of big problems at all. It's just the few times. And by the way, the few times are big, you know why? Because they're intrapsychic things. They're your psychological stuff that has nothing to do with the other person. Yeah. But it makes me also, if I could, it makes me also think, like, I don't know. My general belief is whatever couples are fighting about, it's not about that anyway. It's never about the cat, it's never about the lights left on, it's never about you forgot this. Those things trigger it, but it's about a deeper psychological thing that has nothing really to do with the other person. So wedding planning is going in.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah, we're still planning. Italy or Spain. Yeah. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Why Spain or Italy?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It's just beautiful. I mean, we're both very much into world travel.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

We're leaning on Italy? Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Healthy.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

You can see that book over there. Vows. So we're very much looking to do something very traditional. Like, so there's, you know, this, and and we were leaning that way anyway, and I uh back to the Google. So, like when I have like an interesting idea, so let me Google and see what else is out there. So I Googled something like, you know, the traditional vows are probably the way to go, or something like this. And there's this amazing article where this woman wrote this article saying, uh, don't write your own vows. Sorry, the traditional ones are actually better. So she makes a case for it's not a religious argument, it's just, listen, for all the creativity that people have and the modern world is sort of obsessed with saying cutesy, fun, romantic vow. She's like, listen, go back to the old ones. There's a power in that. So we're reading a book that's on that, and it's so great. We're like reading it together.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

One of my favorite books, which I also reread recently for the first time since we've been together, is a book called Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller. He's a Presbyterian pastor on the West Side for a very long time. But he and his uh wife wrote a book called The Meaning of Marriage for that very reason because so many people take something like vows and they do it incorrectly, not knowing that they're missing a really powerful opportunity to set forth almost those guy rules and those boundaries, and to really express your not just that you care for the person, but how you will care for the person, and to set that in stone from this day forward for you know forever and ever till death to you part.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

The other thing the modern take is sort of missing is we're kind of hedging our bets. You know, we're sort of writing our own vows because it's not likely that the marriage will last. Like the statistics are against you. Who could know the future? We live longer now. And I'm thinking, but wait, the reason why we want to go back traditionally is because that's what makes it so magical. The fact that it is a whole crazy proposition. Who does this? Like that's part of what makes it human, is that it is there is an element of faith, there is an element of banking on something for which you cannot know the outcome. You have to create it. And so I we think the traditional vowels sort of situate that sacred bigger than us magic about it.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Well, I've always thought that like the traditional vowels were just a thing in America too, you know? To me, like all of this is like still kind of new because uh even though I've been living here for like 10 years on January, like there's still like some culture shocking, you know, like some like some things that I still not too familiar or still don't know, like the valves. And I've never really been to a wedding. I've only been to like a like a wedding when I was a kid, so I like I didn't know like that people like write their own vows nowadays. That was kind of a little surprising for me, but it's all good. Like I totally get it. I think it's fine. In my idea of a wedding, it's just like I just want it to be like the traditional way that you go to a chapel, and then the priests or whoever just got you through the vows, and you hang on the ring, and then the and he's uh the husband.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

In the in this book, which I think you'll probably get it and love it, she includes a lot of the history on the same-sex marriages that were done in medieval Europe with the vows, which by the way, it's the book is over there somewhere. Um, I'm forgetting his name now, Boswell. He was a scholar that wrote in the 80s and early 90s about the history of oh, same-sex unions is the name of one of his books. But um apparently the same-sex unions, it was they were literally using more or less the same track of traditional vows and language, that it was about commitment. It wasn't marriage in the same sense, but it was like you were making these commitments of something that felt bigger than you, you were drawing upon theology in the structure of the church. So it's interesting uh to play around with that history and see that it's not as radical a twist for a gay couple to be finding wisdom in tradition. They were doing that in medieval Europe as well.

SPEAKER_05 43:49

I love that that you guys are gonna have a more traditional ceremony because I think some of that is lost. We don't actually see people choosing to say get married. In the synagogue, choosing to, you know, um have family and friends present. I think a lot of people sometimes are foregoing marriage altogether for that same reason because they think, well, maybe we don't need to actually be legally committed to each other. But, you know, to your point about same-sex couples, I think what's been really powerful in our lifetime is to be able to see the progression of rights and what being able to get married actually did for queer people because that empowered them. And to your point earlier, like they had to make that commitment any way they could. So I think innately, what I've always felt is that my gay friends have always taught me so much about love because they were so close to recently not being able to being allowed to enjoy it to its fullest extent.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

In my 20s and before late teenage years and 20s coming out, the idea of being gay was so linked to fear and AIDS and uh um being disowned. Like the threat was so great. There was no imagination of a gay marriage or even being a boyfriend or a partner. It was just you needed an underground outlet for sexual release. Think about that for a second. So it's like every iteration of some form of coupling remained practically, and perhaps how long is it still internalized for gay people my age? And so the leap to even boyfriend, let alone marriage, it is so relatively new. So I think you're right. There's a lot that the normalization of it through marriage has done, so that for me, with you, I'm like, wow, I can actually really contemplate being a mature adult in an adult relationship because a lot of this has been taken care of for people who are dead now. Yeah, they fought the fight so that we can contemplate an actual healthy marriage, which before a lot of us were just struggling to get by from the trauma of underground.

SPEAKER_05 46:07

With their wedding on the not so distant horizon, I asked Mario and Misha about what they're doing to prepare for their big day. But to them, the wedding is just another fun day together in a series of great outings. One that will, they say, probably not change the relationship all that much.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

I'm wanting to sort of figure out what's next level for me. I've got a lot of work to do to build and grow and continue. This takes time, this takes energy. So the wedding planning is in there somewhere. You know what I mean? It's exciting. Um and yeah, you know, as we as we plan details for the next year, we gotta think practically about you know wedding stuff. Yeah, we better get planning.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Yeah, we better, we better get the work. We're really like planning on like small weddings, like nothing really big, not like too much, not too many people, just something very intimate. Shouldn't be that work, yeah, that much work. I hope so. We'll see.

SPEAKER_05 47:13

Who do you think is most likely to cry during the ceremony?

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Because you said that I'm not gonna cry. Only because you said that I'm not sharing.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

He cries for it. I cry all the time all the time. Well, like we like watching a show, when we like we're watching the news, he he just watches, he just cries for that's true, but um I don't think I will ever say but I think like I will cry too.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

Are you gonna go on a honeymoon?

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Yes, we planning on a small wedding, but big honeymoon.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yes, in fact, we were thinking let's do the honeymoon first, then the one no actually I mean when we say honeymoon, this is just another word for what we love so much about traveling, traveling, trips, the quality time. Like, what do we value in life? We value having a nice outing.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

You know what I just realized is like this all started because both of you went out.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

An outing, yep. It was the outing. The outing for me was doing dancing at a gay club for Halloween. That was the outing, and then it was just a series of dates and outings ever since.

SPEAKER_05 48:21

Yeah, and we live like that in the outing, and I love that kind of going back to what we were saying about like queer couples in this country and all over the world, but like to be out, to be outside, to let yourself be seen and heard for who you are. That is that's incredible. That's what love's about.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

This is what your whole podcast is about, isn't it? Like you believe that love is a kind of witnessing. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

Love is a kind of witnessing. Do you think that marriage will change the relationship or any in any way?

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I don't think so. Like, well, I think like it would change, of course, in a good way. But like it feels like we are already married. Like, because like we live together, we we do everything together, we know each other so well. And I feel just like the marriage will just be uh like just jump into another level of our relationship. Like I feel like getting married will like just make us like plan more for the future, you know. Like, where do we wanna be in 10 years? That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

It's funny, I could go either way, yes or no. The way you said no, it won't change us. I agree. I agree with everything you said, but I'll play around with saying yes, I'll say yes in the sense marriage will change a relationship because I think it's gonna be like what you said, the magic of the ritual. I think the magic of the ritual of the wedding will change it, like in the way that you said it'll be deeper, but also I say yes because I want to stay open to we will both be constantly changing individually and separately, and that's why we need the power of those vows to stay. We're hanging in there.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

This has been the best conversation so far.

SPEAKER_05 50:24

I ask all the quen the couples these questions, and the answers always range. Then the first question is what do you love about the other person?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I love Mario's curiosity and excitement about everything in life. We travel a lot, and everywhere we go, he's like, Oh, I love Pittsburgh, oh, I love the Upper East Side, oh I love it it's funny, like people used to make fun of me of being that person, but he really lives like this. So, like the little kid who's experiencing everything anew. You know, Proust talks so much about the new eyes. Like the new eyes is what we really need. It's not really the place, but he has these new eyes all the time, and I love this about him. I love sort of the foregone conclusion of devotion that he has, like to everything with school, with work, with family, and with our relationship he's in. And being in means you do and say certain things. I love that. I think he's beautiful, gorgeous, fun, affectionate. And there's a there's a kind of old-fashioned traditionalism to him. So that's my short list.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I know so. I love Michelle, like um well of course I love everything about him, but I love his sense of humor. Like, like um, I also love like even though he's like older than me, like it still feels like he's like the same age as me. Just like the daily basis, like how we act and how we behave. We're like two sometimes I forget he his age, and I said he acts like he's my age, the way that he just talks, his expressions, his gestures, and everything is just so cute, just so funny. He just and I also love how he's very, very intelligent. He's I love his wisdom, like he's so wise, and I really like love that because he's sharing his wisdom with me, and I get to learn a lot from him and his experiences, and I just love that he's just he's just very caring, like he just cares so much about me and about us, our little family with our cat, like he's very focused on us, like he's very focused on his work, he's he's very focused on our future together, and I just love that like he truly and genuinely just wants the best for me.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

What has love taught you?

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Love has taught me and is teaching me because I'm not gonna say I learned love is teaching me in a way that's better than the academic learning, to be honest. Like you know, all the longing for wisdom and theories on these things. Love is better teaching me how to use my time, how to and use money, and how to think about and be healthy. Yeah, I think love is teaching me how to use those other three things.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah, so same as Michael, like love is teaching me to be patient and not only like for a lover, if not love for my family, for myself, and for everybody. Through love, I learned to be patient uh with my mom, like when I first came out. Like, I've never judged her, I never stopped loving her, I I was never rude to her, I never was resented. I was still like the loving and caring son that she always had, and I just was very patient for her to come on her terms back to me, and which she did, and now like she loves me for who I am, she's so happy for me, she loves Michael, she's she's very happy for our relationship, she blessed us, and she just has changed. And love has taught me to be patient, like with my lover, with my partner, because I know he's been through a lot of uh events on his life that probably like left him some scars and he has to heal with time, but like um I'm very glad that he's healing those events with me. I feel honored to be the person for him and I will be very patient for him forever and for anything.

SPEAKER_05 55:35

Okay, no final question. If this were the last time that you guys could talk to each other, if say after we turn off the microphones and I go home and whatever, you have to part ways, and you cannot, you know, be in contact anymore, what is something that you would want the other person to know?

SPEAKER_00 55:57

That you experience with us as a couple, and remember that all of that is already within you, and that you should trust yourself to continue to be able to create that and experience that so long as you're around. Like as beautiful as it has been and is with us, that is a gift that we both co-created, and always trust yourself. I think of this Native American uh benediction or farewell that a colleague of mine in Colorado who's Native American, she said that this was something that they often said when they left someone. They would say, I wish I just said this, but I they would say, I promise to take care of that part of you that is now in me. I would just say, listen, I promise to take care of that part of you that is now in me.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

What's something that you want him to know?

SPEAKER_01 57:01

A lot of things. Well, I would like you to know that um there's the like definitely no doubt that you are the love of my life because I feel like you only meet someone like you once in your life. You don't meet the love of your life twice. So I just want you to know that you will that you you will be like someone's love of their life. You have an amazing potential and wisdom and intelligence that like you can literally do anything. I will say thank you for making little money a dream controller. As a kid, you I always dreamed to have a partner, to have a boyfriend, to have a lover, like just watching so many movies and telenovellas, just like it just made me long for that so much. So and I would just want you to know that I will for forever cherish our memories and I'll be fine and and I would like you to not to not worry about me because you always have me.

SPEAKER_05 58:33

You will always have me, and I promise to take care of the part of you that is now in me. Well, I hope this episode of the love department was as inspiring to you as it has been for me. This really got me in my feels. So thank you to today's guest, Misha and Mario, for reminding us that love has no limits. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart. The Love Department is produced in Brooklyn, New York. A big thank you to Kyle Moore, our sound engineer, and producer, Karen Mento, and very good friend of the pod, Vanessa Quirk, for her help on this episode. For those of you hoping to share your love story on the love department, you can head over to love-department.com to get in touch with us. And if you or someone you know is interested in working with a love coach, I started taking bookings for this new year. It's 2025, and I would love to be connected with you and help you live a life of love in the new year. All right, at the end of every episode, we ask that you take your hand to your heart for a collective breath. So let's do that together now. I wish you love.