S2 Ep 4 "Understanding the Laws of Marriage" with the Bride Lawyers

Before you say "I Do..." you might want to consider all the legal maters that go into merging lives with another person. Did you know that pets can be written into your pre-nuptial agreement? Joining us on today's episode are Morgan and Shari, also known as the Bride Lawyers. This mother-daughter duo help couples navigate the tricky ins and outs of marital law. In this episode we discuss what really happens when you change your name, how to disclose financial and personal assets, and how to talk to a reluctant partner about getting a prenup.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to The Love Department, the heartwarming and inspirational show exploring the nature of love and relationships. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart, and if this is your first time here, I have got a couple for you. Well, they're not really a couple, but a mother and daughter who are making sense of all the legal work that goes into getting married. I used to be one of those people that thought that getting married was just a piece of paper. But I admit that once I was thinking about getting engaged, I realized there's a lot more that comes with signing a marriage license. Sherry and Morgan are the bride lawyers. Their business is all about helping brides to be, and now grooms to be, prepare for marriage the legal way. In this episode, I learned there is such a thing as pet support in the case of divorce, how to have hard financial conversations with your partner, and all the places you have to change your name if you're taking a new one. This episode is guaranteed to help make sure there is no headache involved in the event of future heartache. So share this with a friend or a family member or co-worker that you know is getting married soon or divorced. There's so much wisdom in this episode, and I encourage you to send it out to as many people as you think will need to hear it. Okay, let's get into this episode with the bride lawyers. Where did that desire to work together come from or to follow in similar footsteps?

SPEAKER_03 2:01

So I actually joined my mother's practice right after college. I originally wanted to go into broadcast journalism, but my niece director at the time said, Go get a law degree. You'll get a leg up, you'll be a commentator, and whatnot. And I said, what better to go back home and you know join my mother's law practice and see if I really wanted to go. And yes, I was a paralegal at the time, and it took me three years to be like, I'm going to law school. And I went, and trust and estates has always been my passion. And a little bit down the line, another dream came into my life. And it was really helping people to actually have a relationship, a lifetime relationship with my clients. And that's where I find I really fell in love with the law. And right after law school, I officially joined her as an associate in 2019.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

You didn't promote her right away, she had to prove herself.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

She's still proving herself.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

And basically, she has been the best mentor I could have ever asked for. Not only is she my mama, so she cares about my personal well-being, but she cares about really teaching me and educating me to be the best lawyer I can be. And I love her for that. I love you too.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

When did you go into law, Sherry?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

It was a long 37 years ago. Real truth comes down to the following. My daddy was a physician, and my mother is one of very few women who actually went to law school in the 50s. Wow. I mean, her hers was the time of Ruth Bader-Ginsburg and you know Sandra O'Connor and all these. And uh she ended up not finishing because my dad was a medic in the Air Force and he was stationed out in Texas, and she left, she was at NYU. I think a little bit of it is as much as it was always Sherry be a doctor, Sherry be a doctor, it was little pieces by my mother. Be a lawyer, do what I wanted to do. So I took a very quick path. I graduated college in three years.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Went immediately to law school.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Went immediately, um, contemplated getting a combination degree, but I have to after a couple months when we had to make that choice, I was like, I love this so much, I can't wait to get out and practice. Um, and graduated, you know, in the typical three years and went right to work.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

That's amazing. And when you were always in trust in estates, or was there any other law you practice?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

No, I I actually have had, and I think it adds to me as a lawyer, a very, very vast degree of different areas. When I first started, I did everything from negotiating union contracts to big commercial leases and various other things. I then first joined my ex-husband in practice, and I did a lot of divorces, and we represented a lot of small businessmen, doctors' groups in running their practices. And then over time it became to not just running their practices, but you know, dealing with their personal lives. Um, and it keeps up the wills, the estates, prenups, divorces.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

It's all connected in a weird way in the spider web. It it really is. The law is integrated in every aspect of our lives.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

It really holds us all together. I mean, it's such an invisible force, but it does connect each and every person under this belt of the law. We get married next month.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Oh, next month, congrats.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I know. As we we opted to do uh just a civil ceremony, it's something I've always actually wanted to do and never saw myself as a bride in a big wedding.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Well, it's funny because we talk a lot about destination weddings. And the plain truth is if it's really a foreign country and outside the U.S., you are better off doing a civil ceremony before you go than you are in certain countries. Like one of the classic examples is people will go to Italy, will have what they think is a real wedding, but it's a church wedding only, and they end up it's not valid in the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

That's so fascinating. I'm actually officiating next weekend a wedding in the south of France. And that couple got married in Vegas last year. So they legally, they're already married, and it's kind of perfect because they're actually both are from two separate countries. They live here in New York in the States, so it was a perfect way to be able to go ahead and do take care of all the legal things.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

You know, it's one of those things that I get the question often about efficience. Can I just have my brother-in-law do it, you know? And yes, you can if he goes through the proper training and process, but you have to make sure they do, because if that certificate of marriage isn't properly filed, you're not married.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Right. Our book goes into detail regarding how to obtain a marriage license, and each state is different, and it depends on if you're a resident. Easier than it seems, but there is a process.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

And believe it or not, our next book, and our next book is I'm Married. What do I do now? And you know, I always thought, and I really see this the most with my youngest daughter. She calls me up for every single thing, round the clock, you know. Um, and when she calls me Mama Pedia or something, yeah, you know, but it's really life's lessons 101. I go through everything from leasing, we do buying a house. You know, how do you pick a credit card? Buying versus leasing a car. Um, and we go through every step of really what's we call it married life, but it's really adult life. Things have legal aspects. Doing it without really knowing uh the legal aspects of things.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Absolutely. I mean, there's a frightening number of stuff that is hard enough to do on your own as an individual, but when you're taking into account doing it with someone else's um involved, whether that's with their assets, their property, their finances, there's so many things. Your ex-husband, you mentioned, did you handle your own divorce?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Well, believe it or not, he didn't want to divorce. So I knew that I needed to be taken seriously. We worked together, so I when and had four children together. So when I really wanted to do it, we had to be serious. So I got a very prominent attorney to actually represent me. Um, and then ultimately, believe it or not, the settlement agreement itself, I drafted.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Wow. Yeah. That is a different kind of power because not only are you going through it from an emotional standpoint, but you're trying to think practically about what's best for you, what's best for your family, for your children. And then to be able to hopefully come out on the other side of it stronger and better.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

What I what I tell everyone, out of my own experience, was that since we were both lawyers and we knew how costly divorces tend to always be, our divorce was over in three weeks, uh, which is unheard of. But the post-divorce proceedings went on for about a decade. The court has a lot of mechanisms in place to a series of settlement conferences, a series of required mediation conferences, um, and it's different in every state, but they really very few cases actually go to trial and they really try to push people along and get them to settle along the way. What really drives most divorce costs tends to be custody disputes and what they call discovery, which is finding out the assets of the various parties, that gets us to this whole prenup agreement and where a prenup really saves you a lot of money. It can't address custody or child support. Um, it's the one no-no. And by you fully disclosing what you have beforehand, hopefully keeping on top of what happens later, there's less surprises and ability to hide assets and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

That's very interesting that surprises um can be the thing that drags on a proceeding. And of course, custody, I think, makes a lot of sense. We all remember that movie, Kramer versus Kramer. I thought it was like such a brilliant depiction of the legal custody battle between a couple divorcing.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

When she was growing up, we had 14 dogs. Oh a Saint Bernard, and the rest of them were all little people.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Oh, I love that. That's funny. This is kind of an interesting question. When it comes to pets and couples, and if they break up, is that something you can actually protect legally?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

You know, my funniest anecdote is I had a case, and the whole big issue was dog custody, and ultimately, in their usually you enter a settlement agreement and the judge enters a judgment of divorce. And the divorce judgment actually generally says nothing other than you're divorced, you can take your maiden name, things like that. In this case, it has an added clause saying that the ex-husband would pay for the spaying of the dog. I did a temporary motion for dog support.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

And can I tell you they they had no children? These two champion dogs were their babies. And the long and the short of it is at the time it had never been done, but I said to myself, you know, we may get a divorce judge that's a big dog lover. Up settling it before it went to court, and we got dog support.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

That is incredible. And I feel like not that I plan on breaking up with my partner, but something he would absolutely agree to pay.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I have to tell you, I have yet in the past year, let's say, to have done a prenup agreement does not refer to dog custody.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

It's every single one.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Because our dogs are, you know, essentially our children. Of course they're gonna be a part of any document at this point. Life happens, and we like to guard against that. Um, and we want, you know, safeguards in place, and that's why prenups. We love drafting them because we love our couples having an open and honest conversation with one another and exposing themselves to each other about their true finances and how they want to plan their financial planning during their married lives. It's a joint decision.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I think, you know, again, one of the big things none of us really try, you know, we try not to think of is death, disability, separation, and divorce. Most of us go into marriage with some type of rosy-colored glasses, and we really don't want to take them off. But as Morgan said, life happens. And if you could sort of plan when you're still so in love and everything's happy for what'll happen, you find that you do it with a different stance. You're really looking what's in the best interest of both of you if something happens, as opposed to by the time divorce happens, you're sort of at each other's throats in one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah. No, I always used to say that it's like, let's go ahead and talk about it while we like each other. So that when we don't, if we ever don't like each other and we can't come to a meeting of the minds, we already have agreed on the most loving choice and the best choice.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Right. We're doing the fair thing by each other by having that discussion and by drafting such a document. I the definition of a prenuptial agreement by Oxford is an agreement made by a couple before they marry concerning the ownership of their respective assets should the marriage fail.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

But can I tell you a prenup can be so much more? And it's one of the things that when we do prenups, we try to address as much as the parties want and can actually be written in a manner that will control it over what someone would put in a will. The big thing here to consider is that when you have a prenup, you can change it at any time, as long as both parties sign the change and it's you know notarized or whatever other steps that state requires for a change to be valid.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

That's a really good note to know. It's not a set it and forget it one-time thing. You can go back and review your prenub. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

And oh, I I love this point. I hope you're making this point continue.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Well, uh, we'll talk about two things. One thing what I was talking about is sunset clauses. A lot of people, depending on the circumstances that they enter the prenuptial agreement with, some people add clauses that they automatically come to an end after a certain period of years. Oh, wow. Or on the birth of a first child. I basically really don't recommend it though, because you're then left with no choice but signing a new one, in which case, suppose the other party doesn't. But by agreement, you guys can always change. Always. The only difference is courts will scrutinize them a little more closely than they will scrutinize prenup agreements. But the difference when it comes to wills is that it only takes one party to write a will, change it whenever they want.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So that's where certain protections, if you really want to protect them, you can make these will type things of what happens after you die that you both agree to, so the other party can't change them.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

And with a will, at any point though, you can change it because that is your document and it's pertaining to your desires and everything like that. So you could change it at any time, and it just requires your signature and perhaps a notary and whatnot. But with a prenup, it does require both signatures.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

So I'll give you an example there. Um, the common way that reciprocal wills are written is sort of the husband says, everything goes to my wife, and the wife says, Everything goes to my husband. Next day, the wife could say, Yeah, good. He entered it. I get everything. You know what? I'm giving everything to my honey on the side.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And that's where we come into those like surprises, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Life happens. I'll tell you, one of the funniest things about being a lawyer that does these type of family law issues is that you have to be judgment free. And it's funny because people will say things to you that will startle you, and you have to have the most straight face and be accommodating of everything. But over time, you really become very immune to it all. It totally.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

You know, and you have to provide a solution to your clients. It's, you know, judgment has no place. It really doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

I love that. There's a lot of stigma around, I think, asking for things like a prenup, starting those conversations, particularly if maybe you haven't joined assets or shared an apartment or done things leading up to marriage, but there is still this kind of stigma around getting the law involved. Um, what would you say to someone who's nervous, you know, they want to get married, but they're also nervous about taking these steps and having these conversations with their partner.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Well, I I, you know, again, I think the healthiest relationship going forward is it's not just loving one another, right? It's also getting along with one another. Like I think one of the biggest things is always communication. That's what makes a relationship strong. Um, but the other is, you know, financial things and assets. You know, they always say that difficulties in finances is the number one cause of divorce. Um, so if you're not on the same page there, you can really run into problems. The other thing that I think most people are really surprised about is almost every state's requirement that there be full disclosure. In New Jersey, not only do you have to fully disclose, but your disclosures, which is everything you own, what you know, all your income, everything as of that date of marriage.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

As well as your liabilities.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yes. You're revealing your credit card habits, all your insecurities on the table.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

For some couples, it uh they even say it's refreshing. They feel like a huge weight is off their shoulders, which I love to hear because it's something that has been holding them back in their relationship.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah, you don't think about it, but I think it really is something that it keeps you from taking a lot of life steps, especially if it is something either financial or just a personal something, could be student loan debt. All of these things you think I can't get married until I, you know, take care of this. But I think similar to that honesty that we're having with our partners, the honesty with ourselves to be able to say, okay, this is something that's attached to me. I'm not proud of it. I feel insecure around it, but I need to find a way to take care of it in a way that, you know, I don't have this anxiety or I don't have this fear of being unlovable or unmarryable because of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

No, you know, it's one of these things with student loan debt. Like I say most people think about it. You are worth so much more than your debt. You know, and if somebody loves you, can I tell you in case after case, I have had women come to me and they're always hiding something, and they're very fearful. I have yet to have a future. Room, walk away from it. Not one case. You know, and I think that's the stereotype that you figure, oh my God, if he knows my credit card habit, you know, we're done. We're done. It's one of these things that can always be worked out. You know, I tell everyone, if you think of the worst that'll happen, it never does. My own life has had so many ups and downs. And let me tell you, better days are always coming. They just are.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, and this is such an exciting time in people's lives. The last thing you want is to have any secrets, any fears, any of those things attached to it. Coming into marriage with as open and honest a slate. It might not be a clean slate, but it'll be an open slate, and everything's out there for you to build this new life together. I think that's such a healthy way to approach it.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

And also, even finding my fiance and just dating, you know, prior. My mother found some statistic out there years ago. The person you choose to marry will determine 90% of your happiness. That resonated with me and still resonates with me to this day because the person you choose to marry will affect your life. 90%. It just will. You know, you'll still have things that you can do on your own and decisions that you can solely make. But when you get married, there are so many joint decisions to be made. Where you decide to live, how many children you may want, um, what schools they want to go, you know, that you want them to go to. Um it all.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

How you spend money, what if you give to charity, what charities you want to give to? I mean, there's so many decisions we make as individuals on our own. And I don't think a lot of people, when they go into marriage, realize the level of compromise and communication that it's going to take going forward to make what once would have been a pretty simple, straightforward decision. What are some things that I think people don't think about in terms of their assets and in terms of what they're coming into marriages with as they're drafting this prenup agreement?

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Well, who's going to be paying for the debt? Are they going to come to some type of agreement? If you do decide to have a joint bank account, how much of that money does go to paying off that debt, or if no money goes, if it's solely their separate property and it remains their, you know, personal debt that it does not ever leak into the marital responsibilities?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

No, I think that's a great point, Morgan. I but I I think one of the biggest things we find is we have a lot of clients broach us and they're concerned about assets that they really don't need to be concerned about. One of the big things is that assets before the marriage, yours alone, if they're in your name, as long as you don't commingle them with marital assets. The only little caveat to that is certain assets and how they increase in value during the marriage. So one of the big things, it's the classic example of the wife or husband who puts the other one through medical school, helps at their medical practice or legal practice office or something like that. But even though that practice or that degree may have been right before the marriage or partially, that can be subject to debate. But otherwise, most assets owned before. In addition, gifts or inheritances, inheritances, even after the wedding, those are not subject to divisions as long as you don't do what we call commingle. And commingle is taking money out of your personal bank account and sticking it into the joint account. And one of the wonderful things about prenuptial agreements is you can actually write that even if you commingle, it's going to be assumed to be separate property.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

So when you say commingling, I want to break this down so our audiences get it. So say someone inherits a piece of property, say it was their grandfather's house. The couple decides they want to keep the house, but it needs renovations. And so the one party is willing to put more money into the house being renovated and made to a nice standard. Would something like that be commingling if the house was inherited by the opposite partner, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Well, listen to the funny story on this one. The law generally talks in terms of taking and sort of almost liquidating or changing it into postmarital property. And it's almost a one-way street going, as opposed to it going backwards. If people are making improvements to a separate piece of inherited property that just one of them has, improvements paid for by the other spouse is would generally in a court of law be considered a gift to the original spouse. Wow. The thing where people mess up is you inherit a property, you sell it, and then you use those proceeds to buy a joint property. Now you've converted an inheritance into joint marital property. If you have in most prenuptial agreements, they will provide that that person who gifted those additions to that inherited property that it will be considered either joint or whatever property in any later division. And they retain the post-marital status of that property as opposed to losing it. Interesting. This is very interesting. A lot of lawyers, the way they draft these agreements, it provides that, well, if you commingle, when you're doing it, you're gonna write this separate piece of paper that you both sign. People forget to sign. We don't just give clients their documents, whether it's a divorce agreement, a contract, a lease, whatever. Um we give them guides what they really mean and how to follow them.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Um because a nice blueprint of how they should proceed with the document.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Because can I tell you one of the biggest things people, you know, I see it advertised online, ironclad prenups. Um, but can I tell you what usually causes most prenups to fail is the parties not following them.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I'm sure we have a lot of people who listen to this podcast who maybe don't want to get married, um, but they want to know if there are some legal protections for them. Maybe they're domestically partnered, maybe it is just a long-term relationship, that they, you know, feel entitled to certain things. Would that be something that you would probably encourage them to do in a will, or are they entitled to something as a you know, a longtime domestic partner, say in the event of you know, death or separation?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Well, again, this is something that is answered differently on each by each state and the state's laws. However, number one, the issue of whether people who are simply living together, whether they may have rights against the other, depends a lot, again, really on every specific state. When people make claims against the other, usually for support, not so much assets, it's often for support. That's called palomony. Palomony, as more people are living together, is becoming more acceptable legal concepts in most states. But even in New Jersey, you can have palomony claims, but they provide for them to be upheld. There has to be an agreement in writing. So we encourage people who have been living together, and I do probably close to as many of these agreements these days as I do prenup agreements. We do cohabitation agreements, same force and effect as a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement, the only difference being the status of marriage or civil unions, marital rights by law. As we said, when we talk about marriage, it's very clean. The day before you're married, that's your premarital, it's separate.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

So there's a premarital period and a postmarital period.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Exactly. The living together one gets tricky.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Like, for example, the benefits of marriage. There's so many benefits as to when you actually get married that when you simply just live together, you're not actually entitled. Like, you know, what's an example on the top of your head?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Well, there's tax benefits, and like of which there's plenty, and family leave benefits, um, even visiting a hospital. Often spouses are entitled to visit.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Um lawsuits for like wrongful death.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Where a spouse is often entitled not to just damages for the loss of that person, but for the loss of what's called the consortium.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

That is really interesting. Because I mean, for so many years, I think there was this terrible phrase of, oh, it's just a piece of paper. And I've always thought and felt marriage was more than that, but I too kind of was like, well, maybe at some point I'll just, you know, we'll live together for a lot of years and we'll have the kids and and then maybe one day we'll go get married. You know, yes, it is a piece of paper, but it is, it has so many legal benefits. It has so much, it's so much more loving to marry someone because you can protect them and yourself and your relationship through through the legality.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

One of my girlfriends, like a few months ago, she actually's like, Why should I get married? You know, the dating scene's terrible, but like, why should I get married? And of course, light bulb moment for both of us. We're like, we gotta write a blog post about this.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

We gotta educate people.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

But we did a um blog post, and actually on Instagram you'll see it's two cows. Like, why get the cow when you can get the milk for free? On our Instagram, that's the actual cover photo. Um, but yeah, um, we wrote a blog post, The Benefits of Marriage, and it's you know, located on our website. Yeah. Yeah, I'll definitely link it in the podcast for everyone to read it. So useful, so great, and it's simple and concise. I uh it's one of my favorite blog posts.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

You know, we talk about this living together concept, and the question is um, and it's funny because I find more people ignoring it than sort of facing up to it, and there's really there's not much case law that addresses it. When is it time to start having an agreement? Like, think about it. If you just sort of move in with your boyfriend, it's been six months. Do I get a cohabitation agreement now? Is five years too late? You know, when is the right time that this is serious enough? And there really there's there's very little law on it. Yeah, it's a very gray area. One of the things we're seeing more and more often is parties leasing apartments together, and then what happens when they break up? And we know certain circumstances where the results were disastrous, that the one party just sort of up and left, leaving the other one on the hook for the entire remainder of the lease. A lease that in this case the woman never would have entered was to be paid totally by her.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

So these are things where a cohabitation agreement that agreed on a division would have made him responsible.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Someone came to you and they said, I'm getting married, but I don't want to do all the craziness. If I could just do kind of one thing to set us up for success, what would that one thing be? What would you urge them to do?

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Definitely a prenup. I I love everything that consists of a prenup. I love the open and honesty that goes in preparing that document. That document is, you know, made when you both love each other. You want to do the fair thing by one another. And I really do find you are setting the tone of how you're supposed to act during your marriage and to follow and abide by it. And I think it really makes it easy to follow. I think that document, it just provides so much security and protection to each party. And that's I I love that.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I I think that it's such a perfect point. And I think one of the key things that when we discuss prenups with our clients is, and this is what makes it such a broad, great first thing to do, is they realize a lot of other things in their lives. So for example, when we're talking, we discuss their assets with them and how they would want it split up and how they want things to go. We go through the party's income and who's paying for what and different things with an eye towards suppose you divorce or this or that. But ultimately, we get into every issue regarding their legal and financial being. So we've had cases where people were concerned the other spouse may have access to something. And in that case, there may be a uh trust that's already in place. But we find out things that, for example, the client hasn't done what she needed to do to make that trust effective. So by just coming to talk to a about a prenup to us, we learned that she didn't either follow her instructions of her state attorney in doing what she needed to do, or maybe they never told her what she needed to do to make that legal document really valid. Um, and we've had a lot of other cases where different issues come up as far as how property should be deeded. It's things that have nothing to do with really just what's going on between her and her future spouse.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

That's so true. Whole legal cleanup thing.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

It really is, and it it's just it's a really great place to, you know, start your married lives.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

And even more reason, as you said, it has to be something that you do together. You what if one partner is like, you know what, I like I've heard about this whole prenup thing. Maybe they just don't like the idea of it, or what maybe they are trying to hide something. What do you say then to someone who's about to get married, but they don't have a partner who's as gung-ho about a prenup as they are?

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Right. That it that makes me a little nervous, like if I were in their shoes, because if I was pleading my case that this is why we're doing, and I think it's beneficial to both of us, and we both love each other at this moment in time and want to do the fair thing by each other. Why, if something does happen to us, life happens, someone may be incapacitated, disability. If that event does happen, don't you want to have things in place that make sure that certain decisions are made properly instead of being in the moment stressed out or contentious with one another? Wouldn't you want a, you know, something that was very well thought out? This doesn't just happen. Like when we prepare prenups, this isn't just a you know two-day thing. This is really thought out and it goes back and forth many times. And there's four eyes at least, and not four eyes, but four pairs of eyes on this document. Everyone is really looking at the details.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

So I think what I think is part of the issue is that people from their own backgrounds have different peak preconceived ideas about prenups.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

So one of the common situations is the one partner um who isn't pushing for a prenup to be like, well, you I'd always treat you fairly. I'd I'd never take your money, I'd never this. And it becomes almost a personal affront, you know. And I think that ultimately the best way to explain it is sometimes if you're not getting through to them, you have them just talk with your attorney to explain why we're doing this. And we tell everyone, you know, everyone has to have their own representation to have it really be valid. Um, you know, legally, someone can waive it and say the attorney is representing both of them leaves it up to chance. What's the point in paying for the agreement, going through the accounting, and doing the agreement if it's not going to be held up?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Um, so I really recommend separate counsel. And there is an area where when they start, I always tell my clients, you know, this is X, Y, and Z. You go talk to your partner. You figure where it's out. And I try to do a little bit of a hands-off, you know, like these are your parameters, but you get the agreement. As an attorney, it's really not your job to write agreements and plan people's lives for them. It's really your job to do what they want to do and to advise them how to best do it to protect themselves and to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I kind of like that idea of even if it's something that you truly feel like you would wouldn't be able to get through together for whatever reason, having separate counsel to draft the agreement so that way you can disclose to your attorney, they can disclose to their attorney, and there's this ability to then come together to get this agreement made.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

It should never ever be an adversarial situation. As long as it's a real marriage and a real relationship, things go very tend to go very smoothly. The process and everything is not geared towards preventing people who are truly in love from going forward, but it is very detailed and geared that if people are getting married just for a green card type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

You mentioned one thing earlier that I wanted to come back to, uh, which was name changes.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Yes. No, name changing, um, that actually, and it's interesting because typically with like a bride and groom, you know, it's typical for the bride to actually change her name, right? But it is a little bit of a process. And, you know, long story short, before you do the name change, if you're receiving gifts before you actually get married, and you actually get a check that is in your supposed married name, you can't deposit that check into a bank account. That is not your legal name, and no bank will authorize that deposit. The actual process, it used to be a little bit more grandiose. You actually had to tell the world you had to actually publish.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

I'll tell you, you know, the process basically, most states almost give you like a free pass if you, as a woman, for example, you're free net not to change your first name, but that middle and last name can be changed very easily. You can change the to your spouse's last name, a hyphenated form of the name, um, and the your spouse can as well. However, if you want to do something a little more creative, generally you have to apply to the court to have that name change. The bottom line is there's not really this hundred percent legal thing for. What your name really is. You have it on a birth certificate, right? That's pretty legal, but it can change over time what you're called and known by and everything else. So when you get married, one of the first things that confuses people is what do you do first? Social security first. You can take that, you can then go to DMV, you can then take that same social security number change, and you can uh change your passport. And what a lot of people don't realize is that once you've taken that step to change that social security number, you're you're in. You have to really go forward to have a clean, simple life in changing it with everyone. And by everyone, we mean your insurance companies, all of them. Car, this, this, credit cards, credit cards, your banks, your financial institutions, um, your job, your pension, your this. It becomes, it can be 20 plus things, and it can be very time consuming. These, it may even be costly. You know, there's charges for changing things, you know, passports and the like.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Unbelievable. And it makes sense now. I'm thinking of like a divorce friend who has not changed her name back because it is it's a process, and and I never realized it before now. But when people ask you what your legal name is, like that's it's a legal, like your name is a is a legal concept.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

It really is, and and it's one of those things where life can get very complicated. When I was married, I sort of never changed my driver's license. I then ultimately finally got around to it over a decade later. I then divorced, didn't go about, we said it was well over a decade. I think it was 13 years until I changed back officially during my marriage. I had credit cards in both names. Yeah, I had different things, and ultimately I used to walk around with my passport, which had all names on it, um, as proof, because you know, if I was using this credit card, and when I used to go to doctors, 50% of the time it would have been in the other name with that doctor, depending when I got the doctor.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Mm-hmm. This is a very important thing to think about before you have kids and all of that stuff as well. The name, the name is a source of protection, but it, you know, it's a big another legal step you have to take.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

And also it's a conversation to have with your future spouse. Um, some really they want you to take their name. If you don't take the name, it's a huge insult. So you should um have that discussion as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

I want to end with some of the same questions that I actually ask some of the couples. Um, because I think you both will have very interesting answers. The first one is what has love taught you for me?

SPEAKER_03 47:18

It's to be very open and like to literally fall in love and stay in love. But you gotta be open, like you cannot have any guards, there's no tick for tat. Just like how any good relationship you do have that you actually idolize, try to mirror it in your own relationship. Have them be your confidant, really just confide in them, have them be your rock.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, I would say love has taught me that when it's right, it's right. Whether it's love for a spouse, a child, a best friend, right? When it's right, it it just flows out of you and it goes both ways. When it's wrong, it will not. Yeah. You know? I love that.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

What is something that you love about your mom? And one of the is something you love about your daughter.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

I'll go first.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

I have loved this child from the day she was born. Um, of all my babies, she was the easiest delivery at a very convenient time in the morning. Perfect. And in general, like I adored her so much that I used to wake her up when she was a baby, bring her downstairs, sit cross-legged on the floor to watch TV with her on my lap. I just loved being with her. And as she has grown, I have not only kept that same adoration, um, but grown to respect her as well. You know, as a woman, um, as an individual, the way she treats others, uh, the way she strives for herself, and the way she loves me.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

You know, it's a hard question to answer, but I love that I constantly, not only do I respect her, like she is my number one woman that I would ever go to. She is my person that I go to for most of my problems. But, you know, to put it simply, um, you know, I respect her so much, and I love that we can have an open and honest conversation, and she will give me an objective answer. I try. Her, like, she just wants me to be happy and she wants me to live my life the best way I can. And she finds, you know, she everyone has their own bias and everything. She really does not include her bias when she gives me um any type of advice. And I think it's not only because she's a lawyer, you know, by occupation, but she lives her life based on those principles. And I really do receive that, you know, free legal advice throughout my entire life. And, you know, I love that about her. And she loves me endlessly, and I love her endlessly. My best friend.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

I know I got free medical advice from my mom for my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

My one other comment is that, you know, it's so hard uh as a mama, um, when you have such a close relationship to realize that, you know, you gotta let go. Um, but it's one of those things that I I really believe she has chosen wisely. I I adore my future son-in-law. Um and it makes me feel more comfortable because I tell her, um, as much as she says, I'm the one that she always goes to, that's for now. Um and you realize to have a healthy marriage, he's gonna become that person for her.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

And that's why I I really, and when she said that to me the moment I got engaged, she told me this. You need to start now. And I I've been slowly doing it because, but it's an exercise, it really is. It does not happen overnight because I've known her for 33 years. Like, this isn't gonna just automatically be like, okay, like have a new person. My mom. It doesn't happen overnight. So, but again, that really unbiased advice is what makes this work so well, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

But I do believe that spouse has to become your number one. It's it's a partnership, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

You know, and also like what you say about like the corporation, like yeah, I I love I have this whole concept I came up with once upon a time, and and you know, it's called corporation we.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

You know, and you have to treat your marriage as if it is a business and you're both the CEOs together, you're co-CEOs. This is no longer a sole proprietorship where what's good for you and best for you. You have to really be thinking of yourself as a team and what's best for us.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah. And what better time to do that than before you get married?

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Right?

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Yeah, you've been so lovely.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I I have to thank you a lot for having us.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Yes, thank you so much. And we had fun.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah. This is great. You guys are a dynamic duo, and I can't wait for other people to find you and have have the support that they need. What an amazing episode. Thank you so much for listening to The Love Department today. The Love Department is produced in Brooklyn, New York. Our theme song is Love by Adam Baldeck. Special thank you to producer Karen Minto. Thank you, Sherry and Morgan from the Bride Lawyers for being with us today. If you would like to win a copy of their books, take a screenshot of you listening to this episode and share it on your social media and tag the Love Department and the Bride Lawyers. Giveaway rules are in the show notes, and be sure to read them because one lucky winner will receive a one-hour consultation free with the bride lawyers. You must be based in New York or New Jersey. And if you'd like to reach out to us at the Love Department, visit love-department.com. There's a lot of great merch there. You can ask to be on the show and connect with me personally about one-on-one coaching for your romantic life. Thank you again so much for listening to the Love Department. Now, at the end of every episode, you know what to do. Hand to heart for the fore count. I wish you love.