S1 Ep 4 Cheryl & Patrick "Through Many Waters"

Cheryl and Patrick met as kids at a summer camp in their native upstate New York. But it wasn’t until they by chance attended the same college that their meeting turned into something more. In 2019 Cheryl was diagnosed with breast cancer, her treatments coincided with the Covid-19 Pandemic. Not even a year later, Patrick experienced his own health scare that nearly cost him his life. Their love story is a powerful testament to how love can withstand the worst of life and come out stronger.

In this episode we talk about loving through serious illness, equality among the sexes, choosing not to have kids, and falling in love with where you live.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

I remember just being so thankful because, you know, most of the people, you know, they didn't have anybody there. They were there all by themselves. Or maybe they would have someone who came to visit for like, you know, sat with them for an hour at the most. And here I am with someone there literally all day, making sure that I'm being well cared for, doing everything she can to kind of keep my spirits up. I just considered myself so fortunate to have somebody there there, you know. Like I know for a fact that I never would have recovered as quickly as I did had I been there by myself. So I was really thankful for that.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Welcome to the Love Department, the heartwarming podcast uncovering the nature of love and relationships. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart. I'm a former matchmaker, a writer, a love theorist, and I'm also a bell hooks enthusiast. Today on the show, we're talking all about love with Cheryl and Patrick. They live in New York City, a place they love almost as much as each other. I want to preface this episode by saying that it does make mention of the COVID-19 pandemic. So if you are inclined to, please use the show notes to skip ahead. We also talk about caretaking through sudden illness, working demanding jobs, and enjoying the sacredness of routines together. I hope you love this episode as much as I do. College is perhaps the birthing point of many relationships. You're young, independent, and often inexperienced, but you're put in a situation where suddenly you're meeting and living with many different people. And for Cheryl and Patrick, their backgrounds were pretty similar. So when they met at freshman orientation, the connection was pretty immediate.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

We met before we met, but we didn't realize it. So uh we officially first met during freshman orientation of college in guess it was 1989. Um we both had grown up in uh similar church denominations and both had considered a variety of different colleges but wound up picking the same college, the small faith-based college in northeast Georgia. And we're both we both grew up in New York, upstate New York. Um so you know, we find ourselves at freshman orientation. Um and I think New Yorkers kind of gravitated towards one another when you're middle of uh Northeast Georgia. Um so we I think we was maybe, I don't know, the second or third day of orientation. Um we started hanging out together. And then um when we got our first freshman schedules, which were the ones like the college gives you, you don't actually sign up for anything because they were pretty generic, um, they were identical. So we had all of our courses together in the first year. So then we became study buddies very quickly. And uh yeah, so I think within a month of the start of school, we wound up realizing that we were interested in a little bit more than friendship.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Um we're kind of like New York refugees in northeast Georgia is very rural, very southern. So all of the northerners, all of the Yankees as they call us down there, tended to stick together. We were pretty close from the start.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Okay, be honest. Did you really get any studying done?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

We did honestly study together. We're both pretty academic. Um, but like we would spend uh I think it was hermeneutics was one of our first classes, like the interpretation of the Bible. So that is actually probably one of the classes we most bonded over, or at least spent time together over. Um so it was kind of strange to think that hermeneutics was something that actually brought us together into going from being friends to dating. No, I think we had very different talents. Yeah. Patrick became famous very quickly for his top ten lists of as he got to know people, like you it was like this big honor when Patrick would write you a top ten list, and it would be like you're like kind of some funny things about you, and and then it always ended with like some really like sweet and kind things.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

They were called self-esteem top ten lists, and it was like top ten reasons why Cheryl should have a good self-esteem. They were funny, sarcastic, jokey, but like Cheryl said, they were also kind of serious. Like I kind of, you know, I really did want people to feel good about themselves.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Honestly, it was studying together was the thing we did most often. Um, but then I think we had a lot of common interest in like, you know, music and attending arts kinds of things. Being from New York was actually a pretty big common ground, too. Um, I do remember at certain point realizing, like, and uh not to be too stereotypical, but like I think we both recognized at a certain point we were not gonna marry someone from the south.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

I remember having very similar thoughts about my college boyfriend. I mean, he was great there, I say perfect. But there came a realization upon me like an earthquake that I didn't like where this was headed. White picket fence, two and a half kids, minivan. And even though I was born and raised in the southern United States, I could in no way see myself happily living there in the sort of conventional partnership that to me just screamed of boredom. I realized I wanted to be the one that was in New York with the cool internship. So I broke up with him just before Valentine's Day, which honestly was not my proudest moment.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

Yeah, exactly. There's like that that Southern Bell personality, as Cheryl said, not just stereotype, but like very, I don't want to say submissive, but just very like trained almost to be very agreeable and never make waves. And I was pretty sure early on that I didn't really want a woman like that. I like to be challenged and not argue, but you know, have differences of opinion and all that kind of stuff, and definitely knew that the Southern Bell type was not for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

No, but you know, I'd say the other side of that is we, you know, we just see it kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. We're like really dominant uh women in the relationship that basically directed everything that they're the men in their lives did. Right. And that was also not something I think either one of us wanted. We really like both of us just wanted like a mutually, equally respectful, challenging, a little fun, a little sarcastic, a little snarky, but also like really kind and respectful and considerate of one another. Right. And I think that that has always kind of been the case in our relationship with just that mutual respect and kindness and gentleness with each other, I think, which has turned out to be very useful in many points in life. Not that things are perfect every time, all the time, and not that you don't hurt each other at some point in time, but that I think that basic level of respect and kindness has always been present, and I think that was something we both recognized early and wanted to.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Remember how Cheryl mentioned that they met before they met? Growing up in upstate New York isn't the only thing they had in common. They had attended the same summer camp for years together, but apparently there was more than one reason that prevented them from connecting.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

When we did meet in at freshman orientation, or you know, getting to know each other over those first couple of days, we realized that we had gone to the same camp growing up, church camp. Um we didn't know we hadn't met each other, but I think we saw each other, I think our last year, um, because there was a like a national youth event that we both went to, so we'd kind of seen each other there. But then when we when we talked about um the youth camp, we always have a little debate over that because the year that I worked there, I was I was part-time camp counselor, but I also worked in the kitchen. Patrick's echelon of youth group folks did not talk to people who worked in the kitchen. So I I get I get a lot of uh grief about that.

SPEAKER_04 8:27

We were kind of our own little group. Yeah, and the one girl from Lockport that she apparently particularly disliked was basically my girlfriend at the time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

So when was it during that freshman year study session that you realized you were starting to develop a crush?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

I don't know. I don't know. It was literally like one day I'm saying to my roommate, I don't know, I think he likes me, but I I just want to be friends. And then literally within 24 hours, I'm like, I don't know what I was thinking there. Like, I really like him and want to be more than friends. It could have been also that one of my other friends had a crush on him too. And that may have uh added some urgency to the need to uh figure out my feelings.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

I don't know. It just kind of seemed like, well, why not? You know, like I really like her and I think she really likes me, so why not just you know see what happens? Our first date was um, you know, sometimes colleges they have events called Sadie Hawkins where the girl asked the guy. So that was our first date. So if I was looking for confirmation that she liked me, I guess that's when that happened. Although, I mean, I pretty much knew. Like, I don't know, it just when you asked like who said it first, it almost seems like it didn't even have to be said, you know. Like we just kind of knew how we felt about each other. It was comfortable from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

It really doesn't get more southern than a Sadie Hawkins dance. Patrick had the evidence he needed that Cheryl was interested, and also that she wasn't your typical docile Southern bell. They dated all four years of their undergraduate studies. And when it came time to think of a unique proposal, Patrick put his artistic talents to the test.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

I was a little bit artistic, as we've already said, so I made, I guess you could call it a collage piece of art, I guess, and I tied the ring like into the collage, and then just said that I had a present for her. So I guess it would have been Valentine's Day. Yeah. So I took her to the house of some friends of ours where I had the um artwork kind of propped up on the mantle or whatever with candles, and had her, you know, come in with her eyes closed, asked her to open them, and she first she didn't see the ring, I don't think. She was just like, Oh, it's so beautiful, you know. And I was like completely oblivious. Oh, that's what it was. I had a pair of scissors right next to it, so that when she saw the ring, she'd be able to cut it out of the artwork. And she was just like, Oh, it's so pretty, I love it, you know. And I was like, Well, there's scissors there for a reason, you know, the scissors don't just happen to be sitting there. And that's when she finally saw it and cut it out. And of course, I got down on one knee and asked her if she would marry me. And that's that story, and she said yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

And it turned out I was literally the only person on campus who didn't know this was going on at that time. Everybody knew about it. He had gotten a uh our college had a a curfew, like an 11 o'clock curfew. So if you needed to stay out late, you needed to get a special permission. So he had gotten gotten the pass. So everybody in my dorm knew about it, all of our friends knew about it. Uh, everybody it was a very well-kept secret. So we do still have that. It's up in our storage unit upstate, but we still have that collage. Thirty years later, I've had the diamond reset twice. Um, but a lifetime warranty on this ring, things that you don't get these days. The store that he bought it from was Hellsburg Diamonds that was in all over the place in the south. Rarely do you find it up north. So when we moved actually here to Manhattan 18 years ago, um, and I was working out on Long Island about 10 years ago, went to the mall and discovered, oh my gosh, there's Hellsburg Diamonds. So I go there. Um, and the reason it's important is because as long as you get inspected every six months, it has a lifetime warranty, like literal replacement on anything. So when I I went there, I had my original receipt, and the this everybody in the store was like, I don't know, just thought it was they've never seen this in all of life. Yep. Or held on to a receipt for 30 years, so yes. I think one of the things I think back up to is both of us were really fortunate in that both of our parents had been married through our entire lives. Um, and they were all still alive at that point in time. So I think we both had really good examples of successful marriages. Flip side of things, it was Bible college, and we did grow up in very faith-based um, you know, with backgrounds. So there were some pretty pretty definite morals around that. So a lot of people got married early in Bible college. Yeah. Yeah, and I think those four years of dating really kind of helped a lot. We broke up a couple times in there and kind of, you know, had to question a lot and figure things out along the way. So I think we we felt like we'd been together long enough and kind of had those rocky patches of questioning that were like, yeah, this is something we really want to do.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

I think we felt ready at the time in retrospect. When I look back, I think, oh my gosh, we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into. Like you said, you don't know what 35 years is gonna hold. But at the time, I think, like Cheryl said, we had such similar values. I think that was like the main thing. We were very much in love. Obviously, we both valued marriage a lot because we did have parents who had been in it for the long haul. We had lots of friends who had been married for many years. So we placed a premium on it. You know, we we thought it was important. We didn't go into it the way I think a lot of people go into it of, well, if it works out, great, if it doesn't. There was no if it doesn't, like it's gonna work out, you know. We didn't know the details at the time, but we knew that we loved each other and we wanted to be together. So that's kind of all that mattered.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

I think that's really romantic that that being together was really all that mattered to them at that time. Even if they didn't have a lot of money to plan a wedding, even if they didn't know what the next thirty years were gonna hold. It just mattered to them that they were together.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I hated being engaged. We both did. We both did, and thankfully we're it was only six months. I know I think in this day and age people would think we were nuts to plan and carry off a wedding in like six months from engagement, but I hated being engaged because it was just this halfway in between. Um yeah, we just both hated. I graduated in May of that year uh with my bachelor's. Patrick wound up needing to do another year. One of the many funny little rules going to the Bible college. Um you couldn't re-enroll, you couldn't you couldn't start another semester within, I think it was like a month of getting married. College actually took marriage pretty seriously, too. It was the South, so school started earlier, like early, mid to early August. You only had till like August. So you literally had to like backtrack your wedding to whatever that date was in order to be married, enough time for them to let you go back for the next semester. All that being said, like literally we wound up getting married on the same day in the same church as another couple that we were friends with because of that timeline. But we worked that out. I think we took the 10 o'clock slot and they took the four o'clock slot, like something crazy. Our parents had to have a little coffee summit to figure out who was gonna get the church at which time, because also we had like it was all the same families that we'd grown up with, so we were inviting a lot of same people. I was a big sewer growing up, so I decided I was gonna make my dress, started that whole process, and then we wound up getting uh a seamstress, a friend of my mom's, made the dresses for all the bridal parties. But yeah, I was literally like, go up to New York, go do a bunch of crazy planning for spring break, go back to school, take care of like all the um invitations and all that stuff, and then graduate in May. Oh, it was student teaching at the same time, too. It was an education major. So again, do all that, go back up and then like bang it out, get it done, and yeah. Another funny rule in Bible college. So you also were not allowed to dance and you were not allowed to drink. So that made the reception pretty simple.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

And boring.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

And pretty boring and pretty short. So yeah, we got I think we got married at 10. I think the reception was like noon or one. And we did that, changed clothes, hopped into a car, whisked off to the airport to go on our honeymoon at like 4:30. When we changed from the car to one car to another car, some somehow in the transfer of things. Keep in mind this is like 1993. So security was a whole different landscape, finance was a whole different landscape, cell phones were not a thing. My purse got left behind. So we get to the airport, I don't have ID, but they let me through. Um, they hassled me about the big uh I had still like a tiara, you know. Like, I want everybody to know I'm a bride. It's my wedding day. So I get hassled going through security, but not because of ID, but because of my big hair thing. And then we get on the plane, we fly to Chicago for a layover, check into the Ritz Carlton with the cash that we got from the cards that we opened on the plane because I didn't have a credit card. Thank God I have an Italian family who gives cash. Um checked into the Ritz Carlton in in Chicago with cash. Wonderful uh wedding night there, and then flew uh the next day out to Vale, Colorado for a week in a timeshare that Patrick's parents had given us for as a part of our gift.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

And then our poor parents had to agonize about because they were trying to figure out how we were gonna get Sherry's purse to her. So they had to have another, I'm imagining, summit to decide who's gonna call us on our wedding night to let us know how they're gonna get Sherry's purse back to her. So that was, yeah, that was the whole dad lost that one.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

He did, yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Cheryl makes wedding planning sound easy. I think if I have learned anything from couples on this show, it is that there is always something that doesn't go according to plan on your wedding day. But they pulled it off, even though they said they hated being engaged.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

I absolutely do not recommend long engagements. Yeah. Um I mean ours was six months, which is by today's standards, ridiculously short. Yeah. It was almost a little too short because we were rushed in terms of the planning. But I don't know. I like Cheryl said, I hated it. Like being engaged is you know, you're not boyfriend and girlfriend, but you're not husband and wife, and all of a sudden all of your conversations are about like flowers and seating arrangements, and like all of a sudden you're not talking about anything real anymore. All you're ever talking about is I don't want to say stupid wedding plans because my wedding certainly wasn't stupid, but all of a sudden all you're talking about is all this stuff. It's like you're not really relating anymore.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

You know, and I think too like that ambiguous in-between that Patrick mentioned. I think that's I when I think back, that was I think what was hardest about it. Um, you know, one of the things that, you know, like the uh Dr. Keller, the pastor of the church we go to, one of the things that they're always talking about is the reason, like for the biblical um perspective on sex, it's about being fully committed and sharing every part of your life. And it was that in-between of like, we're not fully either place yet. Right. Um and you wanna like you've made that decision of like, yes, we're gonna be full of all in, we're gonna and you know, and for us it's like money is gonna be combined, households are gonna be combined, physical life is gonna be combined, emotional life is you know, everything is gonna be combined. So you're like, you've made the decision, you're ready to go, but you're not there yet. So it was just that in-betweenness that we were just ready.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

But one decision they did hesitate on was the choice about whether or not to have children. It's a choice they said came as a natural part of the evolution of their relationship and enabled them to commit to each other more deeply without the added responsibility of raising children together.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

When we first got married, we were of the, oh, we're gonna wait a few years because we are young and we, you know, we wanna and then a few years later it's like, uh, we're gonna wait a few more years. And so we did periodically kind of check in on that. And I don't know if we just got so used to our lives together the way they were, or I you know, I think that was kind of it. Um I was a teacher and I've I've been in education now for 30 years. Um and I think it was probably because I was around kids all day. Um but yeah, so we kind of talked about it along the way and just never never just never felt that urge, which is kind of strange because we both came from great families and we both had siblings, and you know, it's not like there was any negative experience or you know, baggage or anything around that. Um just uh for some reason for me a need that I never felt.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

I feel the same. I mean, at first I think it was never like off the table. It was never like, oh, we're definitely not having kids, but it was more of just an evolution and I think that's one of the most beautiful things about our relationship over the years is that we've we've both changed, but we've changed together, like always in the same direction. At first it was like, oh well we're gonna at first I originally thought I wanted like many kids. I was like, I'd be happy to have, you know, three or four. And then it was, oh well, maybe we'll just have one. But we, you know, we just enjoyed our lives so much. It just never seemed like anything that was necessary. Yeah, missing. It didn't feel like a void in our lives at all.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Over the years I've gotten into administration, so it's a much more demanding job. So, you know, in in some sense it's enabled me to to have a demanding job and be able to sustain that. Um, when we moved to the city. I think that was actually the probably the one time we most considered kids of all things. People think the other way. They usually, if you know, if they live in New York City and they have kids, they tend to move away. Um, I remember when we first moved here thinking, man, if we were ever gonna have kids, this is the time and place because there's so much to offer, so many incredible experiences. Um, but again, it was just kind of you know, the lifestyle that we wanted was we were happy with at that point in time. It could be a little bit of selfish lifestyle too, because you know, we can continue to eat and drink and go to shows and do all the things that we love doing um because we don't have the added responsibility of a family. I remember my my mom being really excited when uh when we bought our house uh up in Saratoga when we first moved back, but that's where I grew up. We first moved back there uh about 10 years after uh having gone to college. So that was what, 99 when we bought a house and it had three bedrooms, she got all excited. Yep. Exactly. Well, and then it was well, you don't have to have kids, you could just adopt kids. Yes, mom, we could. We could, yeah, we're aware. We're aware. Um yeah, they definitely didn't want a dog as a grandchild. They did make that clear at a certain point. I I could not have asked for better in-laws. They really they were very supportive and generous, but also pretty much gave us our space. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

That's the one thing that my mom always appreciated the most about her mother-in-law was that she stayed out of things mostly. And so that's how she has strived to be as a mother, how I should say, how she did strive to be as a mother-in-law was very hands-off. Very, you know, your marriage is your marriage, it's your business. I'm not even gonna make suggestions. Like Cheryl said, her family was a little bit more vocal, even to the point of training their kids to ask us, when am I getting cousins? Um so yeah, definitely some pressure along the way, but and as she said, a little bit of selfishness, but I also think some people, it seems, have kids, they make the decision to have kids for selfish reasons. Like making the decision to have a kid can also be selfish, you know. And I didn't want to have a kid and then be like, oh, I can't do this anymore, I can't do that anymore. That's not fair either, you know. So I think it's it's been the right decision for us, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

You can still adopt. Just kidding. Yes, we can.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

People then eventually stop dropping hands.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

I think they finally once you hit a certain age, they're like, okay. You know, and in a lot of and people, people often they they ask, you know, do you guys have kids? And then we say no, and then they don't know what the next question is because they don't know how to respond to that. Right. Um, and certainly I know people don't want to make us feel awkward if it was something that was not possible. And I, you know, I'm definitely respectful and um, you know, empathetic to people who can't have children by choice. Um, for us it's just it was different.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Over the years, they've built a life together around the things that they loved. Good food, drink, the arts, traveling. I asked them to tell me about the places that held special significance and meaning to them.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah, I mean there's probably a couple places that come to mind. Charleston, South Carolina was actually still continues to be pretty much an amazing place to us. Um when we were living in the South after college, and um, I think it was when we were living in South Carolina that we first ventured out to Charleston. And um, it was just we just fell in love with it. It's just such an amazing, charming, historic city, and uh the food and everything there is amazing, it rivals New York. We've since have discovered this New York Charleston thing. We're not the only ones that have that same loyalty. Lee Brothers cookbook. If you're ever looking for a good cookbook, they are Charleston, but they're very much New York too. So yeah, we want to be friends with them. If the Lee Brothers are listening to this podcast, we would love to be friends. Um, anyways, that's another story. And then we moved to New York, we kind of stopped going for a while. And then um a friend of friend of ours got married and the bachelorette was in Charleston, and I think it gosh, it had been like almost 10 years by that point. And all of a sudden I went back for that. I was like, oh my gosh, why did we stop coming? So uh so yeah, so now we've gotten back to going there probably every year or two. Um we talk about retiring there, then we go in the summer and remember how incredibly hot it is, and we think, mm, may maybe just visiting is good. But um, but yeah, it's just been a really special place for us and you know, place of reconnection and um just kind of anchoring us back to each other and so much of I think our history we can connect dots to time in Charleston.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

So is traveling a way that you both like to reconnect with each other?

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Well, traveling is a big part of it, obviously, just because you're in a new place and your your routine is like disrupted, but for the good, you know. Um, and also just setting work aside, I think has been really big, much easier for me to do than for Cheryl. But the last time we went on vacation, which was our 30th anniversary trip to Grand Cayman and the Caribbean, she actually didn't even take her laptop, which is kind of huge. But yeah, just it was the first time like refocusing on each other. I mean, she still took her phone, let's not go crazy. But I was like, well, just leave it. Like, even if there is a quote unquote work emergency, we're an ocean away. Like, what are you gonna do about it? I remember one vacation that we went on, not even sure what oh, it was to Ireland, another one of our absolute favorite places. We got home and I can't remember, I made some stupid joke about something. I didn't even think it was all that funny, but she just laughed uproariously, you know, and it was just such a wonderful this was at like the vacation was over at that point, but I was like, wow, I can like still make her laugh. Like I can still make her like really, really laugh, like I did when we were dating, you know? So it's like I think it's just remembering those things about each other that you really like, like remembering what a great cook she is and what great drinks she makes, and how she's just such a great person. She's the strongest person I know. Like it's not even close. Like, there isn't anyone else that I think is even remotely as strong as she is. When you look at everything that she has been through and accomplished, and I'm definitely her cheering section.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

After the break, things are about to take a dramatic turn. One that involves the pandemic. Listening to them talk about this period in their lives in retrospect, I have such admiration, not just for them as individuals, but how they came out stronger and more loving because of it. We'll be right back with more from the Love Department. In the fall of 2019, Cheryl got some hard medical news that kicked off a two-year loop of difficulties for she and Patrick. This coincided with the pandemic, a time when we were all living in fear of health for ourselves, for our loved ones. And also a time where we realized there was no going back to normal. Our world and definitely their world was changed forever.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Fall of 2019, out of nowhere, pretty much, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Um, thankfully it was stage one, and thankfully we live in New York City, and you know, literally 40 blocks, 50 blocks away is, you know, Memorial Sloan Kettering, one of the best cancer centers in the world. It was just completely blindsided because there's no history of that in my family whatsoever. Um, so I had a uh lumpectomy. Thankfully, it was small enough to treat in that that way. That was in the fall, and then the day before Christmas of 2019, I started chemotherapy. So we went and saw, you know, family in between holidays, knowing that I was gonna be starting chemo, and that to be honest, we wanted to be in the city, and that there was just something about being grounded here and our home and our, you know, the magic of the holidays in New York, that we just we wanted to be here and grounded. So um, so yeah, that was kind of a fun, that was actually a fun Christmas of all things. We went and saw um Michael Feinstein's at 54 Below, which is one of our favorite places in the entire world. Everybody should go. Um, but like, so that was like, how do we take this really crappy situation and then try to find some silver linings and some really special moments in it? Then March of 2020 came. Um, I'm a superintendent of schools in Westchester County. And so here I am three months into chemo and now having to deal with a pandemic and having to shut down schools. And I was an immunocompromised at that point in time too, because of the chemotherapy. So, and I'd been really private about it. If I look back, that's actually one of the uh one of the things that I I regret having done. I think, you know, in a in a job like I have, I think you don't want to ever show weakness. Um, but I realized in hindsight, like that wasn't weakness. You know, there was nothing, like I did nothing to cause that. There's no shame in it. Like, actually, one in eight women in the world are gonna have breast cancer. And I realized now if I could go back, I think I would have changed that, would have been far more open about it. So actually, I was thankful in the weirdest sort of way that we were all locked down at home because that enabled me to be going through chemo safely. The downside is I had to go alone. Patrick couldn't come with me. Um, you know, again, Patrick was right there texting the whole time and very um, you know, always ready to whenever I got home, what do you need? He needed to bring me, you know, whatever I wanted. He would get it. Um, even if it was just to sit on the couch with a blanket and be left alone, he was great.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

And how was all this for you, Patrick?

SPEAKER_04 33:08

It was awful. Yeah, I remember her sending me a video of her, you know, how you ring the bell after your last treatment. Like, you know, I had to watch that on my phone. Like, that was terrible. But as she said, it was in a strange way, it was a blessing because it did enable her to kind of hunker down. Like no one was expecting anybody to do anything except hunker down, like that's what we were all doing, you know. So it was I guess it was good in that respect, but then it kind of turned into like the year of cancer, which was not so great. You know, I had a skin cancer scare, and then even our cat got cancer. Um so you know, for a while there we were like, what is it? Is it is it our building? Like, is this like a sick building or something? Like, why is it's like you have to have cancer to live in this family? Like these N95 masks were like so far superior to the cloth ones that everybody had, and for love or money, you could not lay your hands on one. And she she got a couple of them and she's like, I'm gonna ship them to you. And Cheryl had a chemotherapy appointment scheduled, so we were like, Oh god, I really hope they get here before next chemotherapy appointment so she can wear one. And they didn't. Like they we kept checking and like literally up until maybe an hour before she left, we kept checking and checking, and I was you know, almost begging her not to go. I was like, just please wait till the masks get here and then go, you know. I don't want to reschedule it, I don't want to miss my chemo appointment. And I was like, Well, but you might get really sick, you know. It was we were all just so scared at that time, and to have someone that you know is immunocompromised, and yet she still has to go out into the world, it was hard, it was very hard. I got very protective and also just very scared. It was just and it was such an awful time in that everybody was going through it, you know. Like normally when you're going through a hard time, you can rely on other people to kind of help you through it. But everybody was going through it. Everybody was scared, everybody was sad, you know. There wasn't any there wasn't really anywhere to turn for sympathy. Not that sympathy is not really the right word, but so it made me glad that at least we had each other.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

You can imagine that going through cancer treatments is hard enough, but adding a global pandemic and Cheryl is also a school superintendent in Westchester County, one of the hotspots in the early days of the pandemic. And that is a recipe for some very serious stress.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, it was kind of crazy in my head at times because you know, someone's coming to you with exactly those concerns, like they have their own health issues or someone in their family or their children's, you know, the grandparents. And I I totally get it because I'm living it. Yet on the other hand, I've got to be like I separate my emotions, separate my own personal struggle, and think about what's what is what does the district need, you know, what is in the best interest of the district and functioning and providing education for all the families who need their children to come back to school for learning purposes, for public educators, all about equity. And you literally are recognizing I'm picking from the I'm picking the best worst decision in this moment, knowing that it's gonna not be good for some families. So that was that was hard. And people some people understood that and a lot of people didn't. But I I look back at that time and I I I don't know like how we got through it, how we did what we did. Um it was really, really hard, and people handled it. People handed everyone handled it the best they could, but a lot of people were not in a good place. And I, you know, I look back at myself even, and by the time we got through it, I was every descriptor of burned out, you know, like check, check, check, like no questions asked, completely burned out, because they were just ridiculously long days, um, so much stress and trauma, recreating everything on the turn of a dime. They would drop new guidance every Friday evening, rule, you know, blow up your entire weekend for everyone in the system. So then people were just getting exhausted on top of it. There was so much unknown, so much change.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Between work and home, which was already tenuous. Like we talked about the whole leaving your laptop at home for vacation. Like that was already a pretty tenuous order, and it was just gone. Like there was no work was just everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

I think, as you know, like New York was basically the epicenter of it, and New Rochelle was the epicenter, which is right next to my school district. So we were in the center of it. And I still remember when East the Easter of that year talking to my parents, and we were to this day, we'll be ever thankful that we had a balcony in our apartment because that was our saving grace after about three months of being inside. Um, but I remember sitting there, like literally sobbing on the phone with my parents on Easter because at that point all you could hear was ambulances and birds 24-7, because there were no people out, so the birds had taken over. So you so there was just so much going on. It was a lot. And yeah, and the blurred lines, I think are we it was probably 14-hour workdays, you know, during that time. And in a in a school, you can do so much just by walking around because you see people, it's a very people-oriented being home, nobody could see my hair thinning. So, you know, there was some of that that was like the saving grace. Um, but I do look back and realize like that took a toll on my body, and it took a toll on my um my emotions and um all that on top of the pandemic, and it was just like we we just didn't have an option of stopping.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

She has a very stressful job and she handles it really well, I would say 90% of the time, but that was just stress on another level. I mean, it was just and I, you know, I at that point I was working too. Fortunately, my job wasn't quite as demanding at that time, but you know, we would go into our separate rooms, she was in the bedroom, I was in the kitchen all day, and I could hear the stress in her voice, and the stress in the voices of the people that she was interacting with. And to this day, I'm amazed that she was even able to do it. The whole switch to remote learning, the analogy that everybody uses is like building a plane while you're flying it or whatever. That's exactly what it was. I mean, it was like they had no idea how to build a remote learning environment. They were just making it up as they went along. And she's dealing with chemo on top of that. I mean, it was just it was one of those situations where you want to ask God, like, how much more are we supposed to take? Like, this is getting ridiculous, you know. Like, you know, how much are we supposed to handle before we just break? One thing I have learned is don't ask him that because then he'll be like, Oh, really? You're curious?

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Despite all that was happening in their lives and the world around them, they didn't break. And Cheryl is currently cancer free. She finished chemo and radiation by July of 2020. But as Patrick mentioned, it was not the end of their health troubles, and they would soon find out exactly how much more they could handle. In October of 2021, the same year his wife beat cancer, he noticed some unusual symptoms of his own.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

That summer we'd done like a bunch of a couple road trips as like our first foray into traveling post-COVID. Um, and he was starting to have like some uh like vertigo dizziness kind of things, hand tremors. The hand tremors was the first thing that made us, you know, start to say, like, what's going on? He went to the neurologist and he was like, uh, just like a generalized tremor, come back in six months. And then that summer things got a little bit worse, and he started to like lose his balance and fall, like just randomly. Um he also was losing his hearing on one side, but we thought that was normal, like his that runs in his family, so we didn't think anything of it. So yeah, so he went back to the neurologist again and described all of the new stuff. And I remember you had told him it's it was like vertigo, and he described it to him, and he told him that's it's something, but it's not vertigo.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

They sent Patrick for an MRI, which revealed a three-centimeter tumor on the side of his skull, next to his brainstem. It was benign, but needed to come out. He was promptly recommended to a neurosurgeon to have it removed the following week.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

It happened very fast, like between the diagnosis and the surgery, like because the tumor was fairly large and it was only gonna grow, and you know, there's limited real estate up there, so I think they kind of had to get it out sooner rather than later. So yeah, I think I was like diagnosed in November and had surgery in like early December. So yeah, it was it was fast. There were complications, obviously, and so recovery has not been easy at all. I actually could have died. I lost a tremendous amount of blood, and they had to like cauterize the blood vessel, which caused a stroke, but I mean it was either that or I would have died. But yeah, so had a stroke as a result of the surgery, so recovery was long and very grueling and still isn't complete, obviously, although I'm much, much better than I was. Again, Cheryl was great in that she just kind of rolled with it, you know, like it was just she took seven weeks off of work, came to rehab every day, even though there really wasn't much for her to do except kind of sit there. Like I had every day I had a PT session, an OT session, and a speech therapist. So that was like three hours out of every day. But most of the time she just kind of hung around in my hospital room and yeah, knitted.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

She made I made I made slippers for every member of my family, extended family, friends.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Anyone who wanted a pair. She would bring pastries every morning for the staff, for the nurses and therapists, and whomever happened to be there. It was a gesture of kindness, but it was also kind of like a I'm watching you kind of thing. Like you're taking care of my husband, and I'm gonna be here all day. So we're gonna get along. And I'm gonna be all up in your business, and you'd better do a good job. I remember just being so thankful because, you know, towards the end, when I was finally able to walk a little bit with the aid of a walker or whatever, I would walk, you know, the halls of the rehab center. And most of the people, you know, they didn't have anybody there. They were there all by themselves. Or maybe they would have someone who came to visit for like, you know, sat with them for an hour at the most. And here I am with someone there literally all day, making sure that I'm being well cared for, doing everything she can to kind of keep my spirits up. It was hard because she would have to leave every night. So that was like, you know, a big cheerful farewell every night, and she wouldn't be able to come back till the morning. So that was tough. But I just considered myself so fortunate to have somebody there there, you know, like alone. And I know for a fact that I never would have recovered as quickly as I did had I been there by myself. So I was really thankful for that.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

When one takes on the role of caretaker, it can often become all-consuming. It is the most selfless thing another person can do uh to take care of someone when they cannot take care of themselves. And when they said their wedding vows, they probably didn't expect that this would become a defining period in their marriage. None of us know what life has in store. We just have to live it and be open to the changes.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

As with the breast cancer, like it just came out of nowhere. Like, I mean, it happened so fast. Like all of a sudden I was just falling down for no reason. Like, where did that come from? You know, and then I'm diagnosed with a tumor, and then I'm in surgery, and then I had a stroke, and like it it's just head spinning almost that your life can change so dramatically, so quickly. And the thing that makes me saddest when I'm, you know, I have good days and I have bad days, but when I'm having down what I call down days, it's always like I wish I had known, you know, like I used to be a runner, and like I wish I had known that my last run was like my last run, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know what I would have done differently, like what difference it would have made. But like I got up that morning to go to surgery, like she said, thinking that I was gonna be back in a week and you know, there was gonna be some recovery and it was gonna be tough, but whatever. I didn't think this, you know, like you don't know. Like, you just don't know what the next day is gonna bring. You don't know if there is even gonna be a next day. So cherish the people that you love, cherish the things that you love, like savor them, you know what I mean? Like, I think that's what I would have done differently. If I had known it was my last run or my last whatever, I would have savored it more. I would have been like, oh, this is wonderful. Feel the fresh air, feel the sunshine, you know. Like instead, I was just kind of like, all right, this is my run. Like, I didn't even give it a thought, you know? And it's like that with everything now that hasn't turned out to be the last thing. Like, I thought I wasn't ever gonna go to a Broadway show again, but I did a few months later. And it felt like my first Broadway show ever, almost. Caretaking for her is something that not only comes naturally, but something that she truly enjoys. So again, you know, just the little things of like every Saturday I like to have a certain pastry and a certain coffee only on Saturdays for whatever reason. And she just goes and gets it for me on Saturday mornings. It's not even I don't even have to put in an order, like she knows exactly what I like, and it's usually already here by the time I even get out of bed. You know, it's usually the pastry sitting on the counter and the coffee's in the fridge. Um, but yeah, just especially since I became disabled and caretaking has become even more of a role for her. I just see how good she is at it and that she really likes it, you know, like it I can see that it brings her joy.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I w it's funny that the coffee routine is actually something that's become really meaningful to me too. But during that time, like as difficult as what that was that we went through, what it gave me a little bit of a respite and ability to just focus 100% on him. And um, what it also did is it gave me a chance to actually be in the city. Ever since we've lived in New York City for 18 years now, outside of the city, but I always felt like I spent so much time at work. So I actually got to live for those seven weeks fully 100% as a New York City resident in my neighborhood, in my apartment, you know, riding the bus across town to the rehab center or riding a bike across town. Like, and part of that was every morning I would go to one of the local coffee shops, and I have to give credit to the folks, the parents in my school district were amazing when I announced that I was gonna have to be out and why they gave me the most incredibly generous binder full of gift cards that were personally selected by some um some of the parents who like work in the neighborhood. So they knew they researched at like all the restaurants, all the coffee shops, everything local, so that they knew I could literally walk out of my door two blocks down and get, you know, dear mama or Delaria or you know, whatever. So really generous, thoughtful, kind, supportive folks. So that became part of my routine to like get me through this really tough time in our life to be able to then keep that little routine for myself, the connection to the city, connection to back to what was the hardest time in our lives, which brought us back together in a new way.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

How have you dealt with the changes that have come in the most recent years?

SPEAKER_01 49:54

For me, it's been watching it has been hard, but then having to go through like the realization and acceptance of how life has changed. Like it took me a while. And there's I mean, even times where I'd try to be like, I'm very much like a positive, oh, you know, it'll be okay, we'll fix this, we'll, you know, you'll be able to do this again, you'll be able to run again, you'll be able to do this and that, and like trying to find that balance of being supportive and encouraging and helping them to keep their spirits up, but then also being realistic and not wanting to discourage. So, like, how do you like trying to find that? How do you keep hope and then also for yourself coming to terms with there's just things we're not gonna do anymore that we're you know that we wanted to do or that we would have done, and and getting to where like that's okay. So that takes a while. I you know, I think we're both still kind of up and down on that. Even when I, you know, when I got cancer, we were like, let's do the cancer trip. Like once we're through this, let's have something to look forward to. So we had just decided we're finally gonna go to Italy. And then Italy was like one of the epicenters of the pandemic. So okay, we're not going to Italy. And then it was like, I don't even, oh, then it was for our 30th, uh, well, we yeah, we for our 30th, we were gonna do a Viking cruise on the Mediterranean, yeah. And they were like, eh, cruising probably not ideal, not just pandemic, but he's got balance issues now related to the box. Okay, so we're probably gonna call it on a boat. So it's just like just having to like to modify or to you know, just having to let go of like, okay, you know, just because we can't do that doesn't mean we can't do something else that's special, and that's you know, doing things is just harder. And you know, he's gonna get stressed and worried about things ahead, so I can't be like all gung-ho and crazy and like you know, running around racing, like I've gotta be just more calm and patient on the front end, and getting there is gonna be hard. Like traveling. We've been able to fly, thankfully. So we figured out the wheelchair, that's the one silver lining in all this is the wheelchair through the airport situation, totally the way to go.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Skip all the lines.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Amazing, even at customs and immigration, 15 minutes. Um but like, but then to realize, okay, then the day after, like, he needs the day after to just to rest. And like I gotta just chill and not be like so intense and so packing everything in, and and that's okay. And like just to know it's okay and to be okay with it being okay. Definitely. We still are able to do a lot and to enjoy a lot and to be together. I have I think we both say it, I say it a lot. Like, if his if his mind had been impacted, if he'd been impacted cognitively by the stroke, that I think would have been in the category of things that I don't know how I would have handled. And that's a huge, huge blessing that he wasn't. So we can figure out the rest.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

In looking to the future, they have had to adapt their outlook and plans to shape this new reality. But surprisingly, they're still really optimistic.

SPEAKER_04 53:08

We talk a lot about the past, but we also talk a lot about the future. Like now that we're coming up towards retirement ages, which I can't even believe I'm saying, but you know, there's where are we gonna retire and what's our retirement life gonna look like? But then we're also always reminiscing, like that's our number one kind of dinner conversation is remember when we went to Ireland and we did this and that, and remember the third time we went to Charleston? And I think we love reminding each other of the good times, especially now that things aren't so great. We love kind of like remember that trip, remember that meal? We're we're big um list makers. We always try to like list okay, what are the top 10 restaurants we've ever been to? Like, what are the top 10 Broadway performances we've ever seen? You know, we like to kind of reminisce like that. So I think for me, the past is very meaningful, but we also are constantly speculating about what the future might look like. Lately, our big thing we're thinking about getting me like a service dog. So that's like our latest big conversation is like what would that look like?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

I don't know. I think that's it. We had, you know, if you were to ask, have you asked me this a couple years ago, it probably would have been like the house in Charleston, how you know, a place in New York, a lot of traveling.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

Um like growing old together, as corny as that sounds. Like we did think Charleston for the longest time that was like our retirement plan. So now we're thinking maybe Saratoga, where Cheryl grew up, just getting a small apartment. It's a very walkable downtown, even for someone like me. It's you know, everything is kind of all right there, and if especially if I had a dog, just quiet, you know, just being together playing board games and getting old. Well, old I should say older because we're already old.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

I asked them, what has love taught you?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

What is that verse? Love covers a multitude of sins. Sins is maybe I mean that's you know, that is the verse, but I love cover I guess I would say love covers a multitude of imperfections. That's not quite the right word either. Shortcomings, faults, none of us are perfect. And the older we get, I think the more so speaking for myself, the more I recognize how imperfect um I am, but um love has covered that for 34 years and thankfully continues to do that.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

I think it's taught me that it gets stronger the worse the circumstances get. Like as things get harder, love gets stronger. And it's so appropriate. You know, our wedding verse was from Song of Solomon, where it says that many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it. If a man tried to buy it with everything he owned, he wouldn't be able to. But that first part about many waters not being able to quench it, I think that that's what love has taught me. Is it if if you have the right kind of love, then circumstances can only make it stronger. They can't ever make it weaker. Like whatever life throws at you, your love will just get stronger and stronger and stronger. That's what I've learned.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

I I remember our parents asking at the time, like, really, that's the verse you want. But I think it was the perfect verse. I think we we didn't know what those waters would be. But uh I think it was a perfect verse for us.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

And if this were, for whatever reason, the last conversation you were to have with each other, what would you want the other person to know? I don't know. I'll always be here.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

That's it. Nothing you can do that's gonna get rid of me.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

Hmm. Just that she has made it all worth it, you know, like she made the good times better. Much better. And she made the not so great times not as bad. Like every every aspect of my life and every moment of my life was improved.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

He's always been better with words.

SPEAKER_03 58:09

Thank you, Patrick and Cheryl, for allowing us to interview you for today's episode. You've been listening to The Love Department. It's hosted by me, Nick Lockhart. Thanks also to Karen Minto and Sound Engineer Bree Seeley. Please stay in touch with us. You can reach out to the show on the Heartline by visiting our website at www.love-department.com. For exclusive written content, subscribe to our Substack for just $5 a month. There's an article titled, It's Over, discussing the end of the honeymoon phase. But while you're here, leave us a review and subscribe to this podcast. Okay, hand to heart for the count.