S1 Ep 2 Maggie & Russell "Here Comes the Baby"

On a cold night out with friends, two single people met at the end of a Manhattan bar. They weren’t looking for love that night, but as it turned out, love was looking for them. This is the story of Maggie & Russell. They were ten days from meeting their first child when The Love Department asked them, “What has love taught you?”

In this episode we talk about dating timelines, coming out within your relationship, new parenthood, and love languages.

Our Patreon is currently archived. Thank you to those of you who joined us there and supported the show.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:03

The funny thing about this whole thing is that you're definitely gonna be the good cop.

SPEAKER_05 0:07

So all of this, like, Maggie's gonna have all of this joyful energy.

SPEAKER_07 0:11

I'm like, I know I'm the bad cop already. Like, I know I'm gonna be the one that's like the bearer of bad news or the chore chart isn't done, or whatever. Dad's gonna be like the fun guy. That like, yeah, let's build a fort and not do the thing long.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I'm gonna get a t-shirt with a mushroom on it.

SPEAKER_07 0:28

What?

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Fun guy.

SPEAKER_06 0:30

Oh, fun guy. Dad, he's already got the dad jokes. God, that was bad. I'm sad I didn't even predict it. I was like, what is it?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Welcome to the love department, the heartwarming podcast exploring the nature of relationships. I'm your host, Nick Lockhart, writer and former matchmaker turned love theorist. I'm so grateful you're here. Today on the show, I sat down for a chat with Maggie and Russell. They had a classic New York meet cute, but their relationship is anything but old-fashioned. When I spoke to them, this duo was days away from becoming a party of three. We cover childhood trauma and how that can impact our ability to love, sexuality, and learning to love being in a larger body. This episode comes with some exclusive content you can find only at our Patreon. You'll hear about the time they both went to a fish concert on New Year's Eve. Maggie has an oddly topical memory from that night, one that involved being pregnant. To get this content and so much more, visit our Patreon at the link in the show notes. This episode does mention disordered eating and drug use. So if you're particularly sensitive to those topics, you may want to skip ahead. And this is an adult conversation, so adult language may be used. It's your classic love story. Girl meets boy in a New York City bar, they exchange numbers, and well, uh maybe it's not so typical after all. This is the love story of Maggie and Russell. First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes well, we'll get to the baby later.

SPEAKER_07 2:20

Let's start at the very beginning. It's a very good place.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

So, yeah, I mean, I went out to dinner with my Matteo and his family in like little Italy or Chinatown somewhere over by like the Manhattan Bridge. And then I was like, hey everyone, let's walk over to Old Man Hustle. It's like eight or nine o'clock at this point.

SPEAKER_07 2:43

But describe what Old Man Hustle is.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, rest in peace, actually, it just closed like last week, which is sad. Um but there is still one in Brooklyn because there's like a comedy bar out in Brooklyn. It's not the same, not the same. This is like a this bar is like a closet. Like you can sit at the bar and then it's a one-way street to the bathroom and then to the front. That's it. There's no two-way traffic.

SPEAKER_07 3:08

Like on Essex?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, on Essex across from the park.

SPEAKER_07 3:12

So you were just like normal night out.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I'm always there. Yeah, we're there all the time because I was like 29 years old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:19

And in general, like you weren't dating, like you weren't trying to date.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Like, what was your like it's been like a probably like a year, almost a year and a half.

SPEAKER_07 3:29

So you were like definitely single.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

I had just decided yeah, it was at least like a year and a half because I had just decided to like get back on the apps, and then I remembered how terrible they are, and so I just stopped. Um, and yeah, I met a lot of different people. I like talking to people. Yeah, I generally just enjoy banter and learning about people's stories. And I met I met good people. But yeah, I think at that point in my life I wasn't like prepared to deal with the amount of rejection that comes with it. So like once you come at peace with that, I think like the apps are awesome, probably.

SPEAKER_06 4:00

Somebody rejected you?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Well, no, because it's like it's all rejection.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah. Well, somebody has to reject one person, whether it's everyone next to you.

SPEAKER_06 4:10

You can't believe somebody rejected you.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well, I remember when we started dating, I think at one point I was worried I did like a Seinfold thing where I thought I was like, I think I have to break up with her because she'll never break up with me.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

In a way, a weird way, like something has to fail before something can work. Yeah. So it's like you have to have exes, and it's most people have these failed attempts at finding love before you.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I mean, yeah. I if only I could take the advice I give to everyone else, which is like it only takes one. Well, you know, but it's true, like about your rejection. Like, of course, you're gonna be rejected a thousand times until this sounds like a great intro to my story.

SPEAKER_07 4:52

This could start in seventh grade for me. We're just gonna because the context is possible. Because we're literally gonna refer uh okay. So we're in uh Shawnee, Kansas at Monticello Trails Middle School in the mid to late 90s, and the song Casey and Jojo All My Life is a banger. It's Bop for each. It's uh what is another thing the kids say? No cap. It is really anyway. Wow, it's a great song, and I happen to be in love for the first time with Drew Scanlon. It is an unrequited experience, it is very painful. I really like him, and I tell him on Valentine's Day, and he rejects me, and whatever, but like it's my first real love, and all my life by Casey and Jojo is the song I coined to be our song. My song. Well, not unrequited again, but you know, life went on. I learned from Having My Heart Broken by Drew Scanlon, and time just continued. I fall in love with people. It doesn't take a lot, like, and it doesn't mean I want to be with everybody in a relationship, but like I really like being in love with people. So I moved to New York a year before I met Russell, and I was not interested in dating really. I was here to be myself and just fucking live my life in New York City. And of course, I fell in love. I met someone in a competitive karaoke league, which by the way, oh yeah, you think you might not fall in love with the kind of men that do competitive karaoke, but I managed to fall in love with a guy that did competitive karaoke. And we had like a three, four-month like dating relationship, and right about where it would have become a thing is when it didn't become a thing. And it crushed me because it was like New York, it was like the first New York love, and I thought that one was like actually gonna be different. So then I just said, fuck it. Like everything in my life kind of just like it was before and after that heartbreak where I was like, I just don't care anymore, really. Like, I'll be myself, I don't need to be chasing people, and I just kind of figured I'd be single for a while and it didn't matter. So I deleted all the apps, like we talked about apps, I was in no place to give a fuck about dating. Um, and it was really freeing. Like, I was just extremely okay with that.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

So Maggie and Russ were both in a place to just be. They had deleted the apps and experienced New York as two free, happily single New Yorkers until they showed up at the same bar.

SPEAKER_07 7:32

So yeah, there was a night. There was a night in February. It was like the last night in February, first early morning in March. It was like that last day of the month, and um, I went out with my friend Tracy, my best friend Tracy. Tracy got drunk, but I had been so hungover from the night before that it was a rare night where I was not gonna drink. So I remembered the whole night. Tracy's drunk, I'm tired, it's late, I've been sober, I've just been out to have a girl night, and I'm just like kind of over it.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

It's super late.

SPEAKER_07 8:02

It's like already one or two. So it's that point where it's like, all right, time to go home. I live up on like Spanish Harlem, like the train's gonna take a while, let's go. And she said, What if we just go to one more place and then we get a piece of pizza? And the pizza pulled me over.

SPEAKER_08 8:19

I was like, the promise of the slice is like what will sustain me for like one more bar.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

Ah, a New York slice. You know the deal. Cheesy, greasy, cheap, perfect after a long night of partying with your best friends. I mean, who can resist that? Tracy's plan worked. But the night gets wilder from there.

SPEAKER_07 8:43

So I walk into this little bar, or we start walking into this bar, and Tracy stops. She stops in the middle of the entryway. It's winter, so there's like that entry door that insulates the very small dive bar. She stops in the entryway and she turns around and she puts her hands on my shoulders, and she goes, You are so gonna fall in love here. I shit you not. I was sober. No, I don't believe this. And I and I said, Okay, Tracy, you little drunkard, let's go into your little bar, like whatever. No care. Like, didn't think about it. Just like it was weird. It was weird.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Okay, I'm with Maggie here. Even as a former matchmaker, I can count on a few fingers where my intuition has clamored that loudly about a person. But Tracy hadn't even been inside, and she definitely couldn't have predicted what happened next.

SPEAKER_07 9:40

And uh, I'm kind of just standing at the bar. I'm standing at the end of the bar while they're dancing or drinking or something, and I'm just waiting for a time to go get pizza, and then what song comes on? I will never find another lover more precious than you, you know? And when the song comes on, I I'm just kind of like trying to make conversation with somebody because I'm kind of bored. So I do one of these like turn to my right to whoever is there. Happens to be Russell. That kind of worked out. And I said, It's okay, Drew Scanlon. I don't want to go to the seventh grade dance with you anyway. That was the first thing you said to me. That's the first thing I said, and then a beat, and then he turned back to me and he said, Well, I'm really glad you're over it now.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

Of all the famous opening lines, this one might go down as the strangest in history. But a conversation started, and before they knew it, it was closing time.

SPEAKER_07 10:40

But then at the end of the night, I was like, Okay, so this guy hasn't asked for my number. And like, I'm fucking so sick of again, like the cynicism of like waiting for a guy to decide my fate. I'm like, fuck that. I opened up my phone and I opened up a contact, like a new contact, and I handed him my phone and I said, Hey, let's play a game. You can put any name and any number that you want to put in my phone, and that way, if you don't want to see me or talk to me again, it's a super easy way to reject me. But if you do, then cool, and I can text you tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

And so he put Russell and it was the right number, and I had to like honestly a miracle in itself, because it can't because she could have fucked it up because she didn't. Yeah, I could have intended to have given you the right number and done it, and yeah. So she texted me at like 10:30.

SPEAKER_08 11:32

Yeah, the next morning I was like breaking the rule of like waiting for like what what did they say? Like, wait like two.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Like I closed, like we were together at the bar at like three.

SPEAKER_08 11:40

And I was like sober, so I wasn't hung over the next morning. I was like awake, like, oh my god, seven hours later. I think it was closer to noon to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Like I clo definitely closed the bar and then went home. So I probably didn't see it until like one o'clock.

SPEAKER_07 11:55

I didn't know if it was gonna be his real number.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Like, I also just needed to like the idea that you just did just didn't wait. Like just red flags.

SPEAKER_06 12:03

I I know it really. I don't know why you texted me back.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Thankfully, it was Russ's real number. And so, to make himself more memorable, the next day he sent a photo of him reading, mostly because he wanted a photo of her to refresh his memory of what she looked like. He was reading the goldfinch. There's a quote from the novel that reminds me why I started the love department and started interviewing couples in the first place. It says, As long as I am acting out of love, I feel I am doing the best I know how. Either way, it worked, and Maggie sent him a photo as well. The banter was witty and charming, and all of that was refreshing to these jaded New York daters. So a week later, they met up for a date.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

We were able to sit on like couches across from each other, Randolph beer.

SPEAKER_07 12:56

Yeah, we sat across from each other, and like I spilt a drink, and I remember spilling this drink, and I one of my first impressions of him that like made me go, huh? Was that like he quickly went to grab my purse out of the way. I don't know why that mattered, but it just struck me as like a really thoughtful impulse. But they charged me for that drink that I had to buy.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, you fucking spilled it.

SPEAKER_07 13:19

I did, to be fair, all over the place. All over.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

I don't even think she took a sip.

SPEAKER_07 13:24

But I took, hey, you still have the napkin, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Oh yeah. Maggie's first apartment. She's trying to get her to explain like what her bedroom is.

SPEAKER_07 13:34

Like the layout of my apartment.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, so in her they built like they built an illegal bedroom, like into the apartment's living room. So like there was a window to the hallway to another window.

SPEAKER_07 13:45

I did not build this, by the way. When he said they, it's not me.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

We know you didn't add a room to a rented apartment at 103rd Street. So she had to draw me a picture.

SPEAKER_07 13:55

So I took a cocktail napkin and I like drew the layout. And then like a year or two later, in his nightstand, I found the napkin. He had saved the napkin of my doodle. That was like that was fucking cute. That was very cute, Russia. Because you're not very sentimental about things. Like, I didn't know that that's something you would have saved. Like, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

I mean, I thought it was a fun idea at the time, and then you just like you just hold on to things. So I mean, I don't hold on to that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Definitely. I think that's very sweet. Like, because you never know what kinds of things are gonna be important, but sometimes I feel like the universe has this way of being like, hey dummy, pay attention to this moment or like what's happening here. Don't like go home, go get a slice of pizza at least.

SPEAKER_07 14:42

Yeah, and the fact that Tracy said that shit about you're gonna fall in love here, that was the weirdest part. And so I had to keep that part a secret until like we got married. Like Tracy shared that in our she was my maid of honor, and like for the longest time it was just like you cannot tell Russell about that. Because it just felt like this magical little thing. You know, Russell's not one to be magical, like that's our biggest thing. Like, do you do you disagree? You don't believe in like the fun, like little magical things that I serve.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Like about our thing about like tricks, no, no synchronicity, the larger picture romance she's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, I'm a working man's romantic. Uh yeah, I'm a painful romantic, I think. That's my thing. Yeah, not the not the fairy tale romantic.

SPEAKER_07 15:34

And I don't think I'm fairy tale romantic, but like when the universe presents something to you, like I would rather choose to see it as magical than not. Sometimes when you see things that feel maybe like possibly like special, you're at risk of not seeing them if you don't acknowledge them. Like to me, it's kind of like the universe will show things to you, but like how many people miss the things that are trying to be shown. Sure, I could live this whole time and be like, yeah, Russ and I met at a bar. But like there are lots of little things about my story and like the whole Drew Scanlan bit, which by the way, Drew, if you're listening, I hope things are going well for you.

SPEAKER_08 16:15

Thank you for the role you played in my life. Shout out.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

You mean Russ.

SPEAKER_07 16:22

Well, that's the whole point. Like, sincere gratitude to like all those little things. I would like to look at those and be like, there's some magic there. But I also think it's innately magical that we exist as people, human, species, planet, like it's her form of mindfulness.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

That's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

And yeah, and a way to be to be spiritual and to accept that there's bigger forces is a way to to live and to cope and to exist.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

And there's the working man's Russ's theories about love are inferred from his childhood. This working man's romantic idea really intrigued me. So I asked him to explain what he meant.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Um well, I definitely just made that up on the fly. So um I'll say I'll say there's a lot of similarities, right? Like the threat is is just like finding those moments where you feel contentment um and the world just sort of like stops being stops like existing in your mind, basically. Like I think that's what my mom told me one time when she was like telling me like she would always talk about like love and like what to look for in relationships, and like she would just say, Whatever you know, you'll just be laying with this person, and the world will um just disappear out of your mind. The world will like stop, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

To lose a parent at any age is incredibly uh difficult, and to lose them when you're young is a pain unlike any other. I can certainly understand Ress's hesitancy to be open to love in a whimsical, romantic sort of way. Especially when you know that death is only a moment away from taking all of us in the end.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

I think for me it was it was a lot of work to like overcome like the barriers that life gave me my like on that path specifically, like the path to love. It was always like something, it wasn't like the fairy tale love, right? It was like a re it was a more simple, real world, like tangible, more tangible, like more achievable, more realistic kind of um I guess that's what like the art and theater and movies that I was exposed to was just more grounded in reality for me.

SPEAKER_07 18:36

What kind of love do you think like your mom and your dad had? Was it like the romantic y love? Was it the like Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 18:44

I mean, they met when they were 15 and married when they were 21, and I'm the firstborn and they were 33. Yeah, I mean that was for them, I'm sure it was like a storybook. But then I grew up with like Kevin, which was more of like a partnership.

SPEAKER_07 18:59

Kevin is your stepdad.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

So I guess like the modeled relationship for me maybe wasn't so like I don't know. I don't know if it was like if I'm focused on what my what Kevin and mom and Kevin and mom's relationship was to model mine, or like I'm just afraid of what my mom and dad had because that was like torn from them, right? You know, I'm not looking for like Disney moments, I'm looking for like content, simple moments of just you know, you don't need to like force a moment, you don't need to go on a vacation, you just need to like be laying in bed watching TV and everything else just kind of melts away. Yeah, you don't know that's what my mom described to me, like not the f whatever's going on on Instagram, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah, yeah. He gets married about his.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

She was already because she for like she formed me to avoid these things that came later.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Yeah. And maybe part some of that's part of like her own fears of how hard it can be when you do have that kind of very romanticized version of it, and then real life hits you square in the face, and it it's no longer that fairy tale that you Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Like what I what I look for in a partnership is like a lot of different things. Like maybe I went for like a partnership, like more of like like buying a house than looking for a romantic partner. You know what I mean? Like it's it's kind of it kind of like portrays the idea of like I'm gonna like conflate metaphors here, but like it's not just one issue that is important, like you're looking for all these different checkboxes, and it just felt like I I knew that I needed someone that I could like get through life with. Like I wasn't looking for like let's run away and forget about the world, like the world will find you. Like I needed somebody that I knew could like get through the shit when it hits.

SPEAKER_07 20:57

I will say, I think on the receiving end of this, that it's not always like real talk, it's not always super sustainable to not know what fireworks are because you know, like I am someone who has what's my love language? Oh, all of them, any of them. Pick one. Like, I will accept any language of love that you want to give. But sometimes it's work and man romance, and like it's just kind of an assumption because it's true. We have a bond that it's like when water comes through the ceiling above this room that we're sitting in, and we're buckets and coolers and figuring out insurance and whatever, we're there. We're like we're partners, we're life buds, we're friends, we're all of it. But like in the day-to-day, when I'm just like not feeling super close to you in like romantic ways, that like my little sparkle needs, like the way that my gears are ready to turn, it's like I really have to like pull it from you or beg you. In ways, because it's just not natural to you. Yes, it's the contentment is there, and there's this underbelly of trust and like unassumed like love that we both know is there. But the way it like shows up in life every day, like those quiet moments when we're watching TV, they're happening. But like I feel robbed if they're only happening in his mind. I want to hear that they're happening. Or I want the touch that reminds me that they're happening, or I need something more sometimes. I mean, I agree that that was like, I think we're on the same page and wanting that in each other because we do balance a lot of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Uh what did what did Ian say? He I think it was not at the not at the wedding party, but at our actual wedding. He said something like, uh, we don't really make sense as a couple. He kind of narrowed it down to like, he's like, I think what they like in each other is that like what they see is like something they can never be, but they secretly want for themselves. So it's like it was pretty.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

From the outside, uh, it's uh clear that these are two individuals and independent thinkers. But it's also clear that mutual respect is there.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

I think uh that's mostly like why we end up like butting heads a lot, I think, for sure, because we both know who we are individually, and we're like really afraid to lose that, I think.

SPEAKER_07 23:33

Yeah, and we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

So we're like budding, we like yell at each other for like, don't take this from me.

SPEAKER_07 23:39

We're very stubborn individually, and I think we're both like emotionally, like we both spend a lot of time like looking at ourselves. It's kind of like this hard thing because you're in a relationship that's closer than any other relationship. So you trust innately that they know and they see you in a way that like is both incredibly intimate but also valuable because it's an outside perspective. So you're constantly trying to figure out is the feedback from that person real? Am I really bad at communicating that one thing when we're in that fight pattern? Or is he not hearing me or like where is the whenever there is a moment of tension and conflict, it's always like when you're super close to someone, it's almost impossible to objectively figure out where the fault line is. Because you just trust the other person, but you also trust yourself. So you're you know, we both have therapists, so we're we constantly trying, but that's that's part of why I think our relationship is good. Like we both really care about caring for ourselves and like understanding our own emotional needs and boundaries, but then trying to apply it to show up for the other person and not make them feel yeah, totally like out of luck.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I think it's a battle between like self-care and other people care because you know the belief is like you can't care for you know, if you're the what's it, the RuPaul thing. Oh, that's yeah, right. So it's like if you can't support yourself, like building that skill to like throw that aside, you know, staring down the barrel of like child coming. I like that metaphor. Um is like the epitome of that.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

On the date of this interview, Maggie and Russell are days away from meeting their first child. I can't help but wonder what they'll think of this a couple months later when the show finally airs, and how they're doing. I know I would give anything to hear a recording of my parents just weeks before I entered the world. The things they thought about, the hopes and dreams they had for me. So this is a very special moment. Maybe one day they'll share it with this little one. But before we get there, let's talk more about the fear they have going into this new life change.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

It's a huge life event that I just beginning to process. Like, but here comes the baby also. So, like, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, j the baby, the house, being in a relationship, it's all for me, it's just running at fear. For me, it's like if I'm afraid, I've sort of learned to um to sort of be like, I think that's that's what you should do. Like, obviously, like I don't mean there's like personal safety, there's like I need to get out of here, and then there's just the saboteur. I'll bring it back to Rupal again, the inner saboteur, because these are just your thoughts and you're both you're all of those, right? But some you know, a lot of those thoughts are stupid, I've I find.

SPEAKER_07 26:49

When Russell talks about like the fear, running at fear, like I throughout our entire relationship, it was only driven by me. Like, are we boyfriend, girlfriend? Like, he was he was hanging in for all of it, he was never opting out, and I was never like manipulative here, but like the decisions that took place to like evolve our relationship, like we're dating, we're boyfriend, girlfriend, we're going on a trip together, you're meeting my family, we're gonna move in together. All of those things that had to move forward were propelled by me. I was the only force, and every time they were met with fear, not like full-on resistance because all those things happened. Like, literally, I don't know how they happened because you were afraid for sure.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

At what point did marriage come up for you?

SPEAKER_07 27:38

We had been dating like probably three, four years. We'd been living together for like a year, and it was clear to me that like my age and also my relationship, you know, contentment that I could see myself with this person, and I would like to see myself with this person, but I was not gonna move that one forward. Like, that was like where I was like, nope, that's him. Like, I'm not gonna do and not only that, but I did kind of have a weird, unexpected, kind of midlife-y crisis moment of like this means I won't get married until at least this age, which means I won't have kids until at least this. I started doing the thing I'm sure many women do, especially when you're in your 30s, where like you start to accidentally like plot out these like timelines that shouldn't have to exist, but they do if you want to have a baby biologically. And so I kind of had to like tell him at one point, which I hated doing because it was the one thing I didn't want to have to move forward, but like if we're not, you know, engaged by like this time next year, like it's gonna be really a big thing for me. Like, I need you to know. Like, I had to kind of give him the seed planted of I will be leaving this relationship because I cannot do that. Like, I can't propel that and I can't wish it so hard that you decide to wish it too. It had to just be you figuring it out.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

In my brain, what happened was like um like I was just sad that she was so upset.

SPEAKER_07 29:03

So that was kind of like my I was upset, but it wasn't like a it was weird, it was a weird kind of thing because I it was a rush of this like midlifey crisis that I didn't know was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

It was kind of a raw weird panic attack. So it was there. I remember this.

SPEAKER_07 29:20

Yeah, it it was a really vulnerable place for me. It wasn't like something I'd been seeding in my brain, like I gotta have to talk with Russell about our timeline. Like it was nothing like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

It was around your birthday, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_07 29:31

Yeah, it was the night before my birthday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Where everything was fine and then it wasn't.

SPEAKER_07 29:36

Yeah, but you know, we had to we both communicated and you got the point. I never brought it up again. And you didn't propose till June the following year. So, like 11 months in between, I was just like, I'm just gonna trust that he heard me for it. I mean, I and I know innately the fear that you're holding, so I've never like held it against you that things were trickier and commitment sense.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

But you gave him like the two cents heads up, like, hey, if you were to do this thing, it should happen soon, and I would be very happy about it, so don't be afraid.

SPEAKER_07 30:06

Yeah, and also here's like the superhuman reason why I'm anxious about it. Like, yeah, you deserve to know those things and take it and run. And you did, and you proposed, and then the campaign.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, I thought I mean I put a lot of thought into it, and I don't I don't know that, like, I don't know, like I don't get excited about things. That's sort of like who I am. So, like to say, like, oh, I definitely a hundred percent knew, like the way my mom would talk about when she saw my dad. Maybe that's like another tie-in to like the working man's love thing, right? Like the idea of you see, and people and a lot of people have this story of like you just knew. Like, I'm I don't think I was confident, but I don't think I'm confident about like really anything that I've done in my life. Like any of like the big life choices that I've made. I don't know. I guess society sort of convinces people that you have to like 100% know. And then we were talking about that one guy, like the fuck is it's like either fuck yes or no. And so like I'd read that stuff too, but I also read his boundaries stuff, and I found his boundary stuff like super effective because I employed that like when we met. Um, but I never it was never like, oh, no doubt in my mind, like this is it for me.

SPEAKER_07 31:31

I mean, we still have doubts, right? Like that's well that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm glad that you said that because I think I was gonna let that one go. You know what I stranger, I think the foundation of all that is the thing that you may not want to talk about.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Ready to hear more from this couple? Visit the link in our show notes to find exclusive content available only on the Love Department Patreon. Self-expression is something that always came easily for Maggie, but when it came time to bring up her sexuality, she was nervous that it would change things in her relationship with Russ. Maggie felt safe to come out, and she identifies as bisexual. Something that when she shared with Russ, she was surprised to find it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I I honestly think Maggie's looking for more attention around her queerness.

SPEAKER_08 32:23

Like I didn't I'm glad I wanted you to answer that first.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

She was like, I'm bisexual, and they don't we don't get enough attention.

SPEAKER_07 32:32

Well, I say that now because I think it's true. I think there's a lot of lack of representation of bias.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

And then we saw bros and there was a reference to that.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

But it's true, and especially because you guys are in a heteronormative, you know, dynamic, it can be really frustrating, I'm sure, to be like, like, is there part of you that feels still that it's not being honored in a way or that you wish you, you know, could you know stay in touch with or identify anything?

SPEAKER_07 33:00

Yeah, you know, I mean, like, I think everybody is so different. Like, anyone who probably identifies as queer in any way is probably like constantly wondering, like, am I doing this thing right? Like, maybe not. Maybe the goal is to not have that little thought. But for me, it's like this weird thing, and you know, we were already dating when I was at the point where I was like, I think that this is like confidently like who I am, and I've never really said it, like in a way that I should, I think. And so it was like weird timing because I wasn't trying to like expand my dating pool right now, or like it wasn't like the middle of Pride Month, like I just kind of felt like I owed it to myself to like try to say it, and so I remember being nervous to kind of tell Russ in a way, just because I think a lot of people, especially when you come out as by, I think unfortunately it's interpreted a lot of the times as like you're not fully invested in any one thing. It's like this like poll of like you can't choose, or like you're half there and half there, you know. That's not the case, right? Like, I think I said like second sentence into talking today. Like, I just love falling in love. Like, I'm just I'm able to do that with lots of people for lots of reasons, um, romantically, platonically, sexually, like it's just not a thing for me. So having him just act like no big deal was super affirming. Um, especially when there were people like in my family that were even just kind of like confused and annoyed that they didn't know or whatever. But I think for me, in terms of like how I live my life inside of this container of what is a very heteronormative appearing relationship, it is hard because I have to constantly think about like what would my life be like if I'd fallen in love with a woman before Russell, like in a way that was like this, and then also do I owe the world more vocalization about the fact that I'm bi because I need to make sure they don't think I'm straight, you know, like or is that just seeking attention? You know, what is like the line? It's not like a clear thing, like the color of my skin you see, but this is like this weird thing that's also very personal and private. Like it's I don't owe people receipts about my like sexual preferences, personal relationship preferences. So I don't know, it's a dance that I'm definitely still freestyling. But I do think that um it's been helpful to like just have it be like a non-threatening thing ever with like the bond that Russ and I have because I think there's plenty of heterosexual males who would be like either threatened by that or like grossly like, oh, can we have a threesome with a girl? Like demeaning bro stuff and Russell.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Can we though?

SPEAKER_07 35:46

I was like comedian if we're just gonna say this, but like you know, it's nice to not have that stuff from him because I could have gotten stuck with somebody who was not as good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, I really don't even remember, like was so not important to me.

SPEAKER_07 36:05

And also thank you for asking me about that topic. Of course, because it's such a foreign thing that I even forget that it might matter.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

We're gonna take a quick break here, but we'll come back for some baby talk. I'm Nick Lockhart, and this is the Love Department.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Maggie was Maggie was watching her cycle for a long time. Um and she made it known when the right time was.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

I was like, hey, what are you doing right now? Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

We should do something else. Yeah. Incredibly lucky.

SPEAKER_07 36:51

Like, I think as far as pregnancies go, it's been like the easiest. Like, I can't imagine a better pregnancy for someone.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

And Maggie has been thinking about being a mother for a long time. Just listen to this cute letter that she wrote to her future child when she was only a child herself.

SPEAKER_07 37:08

Okay, so this is the the little letter I wrote to my future kid on July 15th, 1997. Dear future kid, this is your mom, Maggie. I put my name in quotations. I am nine right now, but almost 10. I'm going into fifth grade. I can't wait to like first get to hold you in my arms.

SPEAKER_08 37:35

Okay, now I'm gonna pause because I want to cry because it's like really, really fucking sweet. You can take a you can take a beauty.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Take two from the top.

SPEAKER_06 37:44

Yeah, we can we can do this as many times as you need. Okay. It's cut, it's alright. I'll start over here.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

You have to get through it.

SPEAKER_06 37:52

I have to, yeah, and I won't cry.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

I mean, you can cry.

SPEAKER_06 37:55

You can cry.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

But eventually you can cry.

SPEAKER_06 37:59

Dear future kid.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

No.

SPEAKER_07 38:01

It's that workman's romance. What do you mean, though? Just like I can't wait till I first get to hold you in my arms. You might think my life sounds old-fashioned, but it's not. I think it's really cool. You don't know how much your future aunts annoy me, but I still love them.

SPEAKER_06 38:21

Bye. Love XOXO future mom.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Maggie and Russ had already moved just outside of the city when it became clear that they had a baby on the way. So you can imagine that these are the kind of moments that really require some on-your feet thinking. We've reached another point where we'll be talking about a sensitive subject of eating disorders. So if you'd like to skip ahead, please see the show notes for timestamps.

SPEAKER_07 38:47

So basically, like we moved here. I never had a gynecologist here, and then I found out I was pregnant. So I had to do a lot of like doctor work off the bat. So I found this doctor, she's great, I like her, but I had to kind of, as I do with all doctors, I kind of have to make sure that they know that like I don't like getting weighed unless it's like medically necessary, and because I'm pregnant, I've let them weigh me in all my appointments. But like I have a history of disordered eating, and like certain things are better to keep out of my sight. So, like BMI numbers and like weight numbers, those things just aren't helpful. And early on with this new gynecologist, they had put my weight at like a really prevalent, obvious place in this online portal that I found. At you know, no fault, like it was somebody who just was uploading the report information, and I'm sure most patients don't have requests like that, but I felt like it was horrible because I hadn't known my weight for like almost eight years, I hadn't stepped on a scale, and that's when all my recovery happened. So for me to like put a number with my body was really hard, and so I did have an appointment, the follow-up appointment was tricky, and I had to kind of tell the doctor, like, I respect science, I respect medicine, but I I also have this lived experience that makes it really hard for me, and so I need to just ask again that like your office does whatever it can to like not expose me to some of those numbers. There's something called pre-eclampsia. Oh, yeah, have you heard of it? Oh, yeah. So I guess you're at higher risk of that if you are in a larger body, and so it's something that one of my obstetrician friends was like, Hey, are you on baby aspirin? Like, she was just my friend asking me about what I was doing, and I wasn't. So I learned about this like thing through my informal friendship, not my doctor relationship. And so I had to go to my doctor and say, Hey, should I be taking this baby aspirin for this thing? In which case her reply was something to the effect of, you know, well, I didn't want to bring that up because you vocalized you were sensitive about your weight, which wasn't the point I made. I just, you know, like I want to be medically cared for.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

I do believe it was a misunderstanding, to be fair.

SPEAKER_07 41:01

Yeah, and you know, there's no rule book for like how to say these things when they're emotional in nature and they're based on lived experience, which is stigmatizing and oppressive and like trauma-informed, right? Like, all of that's valid for me. But also, medicine is a thing, and like I want science to be a part of my care, and I respect science. Um, I have criticisms of how studies are done and blah blah blah, but like so. I have to kind of like make sure she doesn't think I'm kooky. I want good care, but I just you know, I don't want to do a complicated page.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Maybe she was just playing it safe based on what you described earlier about seeing your weight.

SPEAKER_07 41:41

Yeah, but you know what? I will say, so now that I've seen the weight, I've been like, it doesn't matter. It was kind of a nice test because it crushed me at first, but now I look at it like I go out and I find it now on my reports just out of curiosity because oh, I'm this much more pregnant. I wonder how much weight I'm actually gaining. Like it doesn't hold the power as a long-term hurtful thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

I mean the diabetes was difficult at first. You know, you you weren't, I think you were just like prideful to be in your body type, and you wanted to not hear those those words diabetes. And for me, I learned that I had no idea what diabetes is because you I think I just assumed it was like too much sugar. But it's obviously it's both, it's too much and too little. And for Maggie, like her fasting number, she's able to control her sugars with food. It was when she wasn't eating that the numbers were were bad.

SPEAKER_07 42:42

Which goes to show that it's my body and that it's the way that my hormones are, and my insulin resistance is like a thing. So that was validating. I didn't I don't have to like beat myself up about counting carbs, and because you know it's also like there are people that have to do that, and I'm with my eating disorder stuff. If I were counting carbs this whole time, it would be horrendous for me, like uh mentally, and it would cause me to have a really hard recovery on the other side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

So and you're thinking about the health of the baby at the same time. So you're dealing with your own personal like growth what you're what you're past, and then you're also trying to make fight um for what's best for the child.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

And despite her past issues with body image, Maggie says this baby has made her really fall in love with her body for the first time. It's the greatest gift she can give herself and their child, self-love.

SPEAKER_07 43:37

I know a lot of people, you know, have a lot of aches and a lot of pains throughout pregnancy, and I definitely have more now, but I didn't really have aches and pains till recently. And sometimes I'm like, it's probably because my body's been carrying weight and it knows like it's not such a shift. It's a strong body. It is. I and I'm grateful. Like I feel health, I feel more healthy in my body even. I've ever felt, and that's cool. So many women just like really hate their bodies, right? Like in general. But once they become pregnant, you hear it a lot of you know different ways, and everyone hates their stomach getting bigger and their ankle and this and that. And I just feel like because I like was able to do my recovery work, I've had the most peaceful relationship with my body. And I've just been like so fucking down with my stomach. I've never loved my stomach. I've never cared about my stomach. And it's just like so funny to like go from a place where like I would have to mentally tell myself to put my hands on my stomach, like if I were meditating or something, but like otherwise there's no reason I would ever touch my stomach. And being pregnant, it's like the only place my hands want to be, you know? And it's just like a beautiful, um, kind of like a mending of that because I'm hopeful that like that piece will kind of remain. I'm just excited to like see Russell be like a dad. Like I know what I'm gonna be like as a mom. Like the picture of me as a mom is like it's just been ingrained in my brain. Like I have a letter that I wrote to my future kid from 1997. And um, so like I've just I've known that that's a thing. But Russell, I think I don't, and this is just my observation, I might be incorrect, but I don't know how much imagination you've like put to like what it will be like and how you will change and what will be the best parts of everything for you as a dad. And I'm excited to like witness that because I think it's gonna like really make you feel so alive and happy and things that you don't usually allow yourself to feel without piggybacking into fear. You're not usually like open arms when it comes to just full-on joy. You usually have a protective barrier, and I think a kid's gonna probably make you get out of that a little bit and make you force some just pure unfiltered fucking joy. And I'm excited. I want that for you, and I can't I like want to watch it because it's like part of why I love you so much.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah, I talk about it in therapy. Actually, I mean that's probably my biggest fear is like letting emotion in. So having a child and loss of identity. I'm pretty freaked out about loss of identity.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

I think what children do though is they give you a sense of yourself in different ways because they reflect to you the same way when you get into partnership with somebody, you're like, oh, and like we were saying, am I really that controlling? Having a kid reflects back to you, I think, in so many ways, the the joys, but also the hard parts of growing up, and and you get to live life in a way not through them but with them. And you now that you know better can give that child that equilibrium that you have, but you can also share in the joy that's probably gonna be coming beaming through from Maggie's part side of trees, and yours as well, like it'll connect you to the joys you had that you've probably forgotten were so that it blocked out, yeah, were so joyful, um for sure, or that you didn't get to have because your childhood was not necessarily like your ability to just have unfiltered joy was very different from mine, you know.

SPEAKER_07 47:20

Like I didn't have trauma like you did. And the the funny thing about this whole thing is that you're definitely gonna be the good cop.

SPEAKER_05 47:27

So all of this, like Maggie's gonna have all of this joyful energy.

SPEAKER_07 47:31

I'm like, I know I'm the bad cop already. Like, I know I'm gonna be the one that's like the bearer of bad news or the chore chart isn't done, or whatever. Dad's gonna be like the fun guy that like, yeah, let's build the fort and not do the thing mom asked us to do with it.

SPEAKER_06 47:48

What?

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Fun guy.

SPEAKER_06 47:50

Oh, fun guy. He's already got the dad jokes. God, that was bad. I'm sad I didn't even predict it. I was like, what is this mushroom t-shirt?

SPEAKER_03 48:02

But I did want to ask if you could say something to this little being that's gonna be here in this world in less than three weeks, maybe. We're gonna call it two. We're gonna call it two.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Let me go first.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Yeah. What what would you tell them about?

SPEAKER_01 48:23

That this person has the ability to just do what they want and that they get to be healthy and um just experience the better half of the human condition as much as possible. That is my wish. And yeah, that you're prideful of being a part of our family. That's kind of important.

SPEAKER_07 48:50

Aww. I didn't think about it like that. That's cute. Yeah, I feel like Russell's answer was kind of hitting on what my gut response was. All I really want to do for like this person is like give it like the foundation of like freedom to know who they are, which is I think what Russell was saying, you know, just like you know, in terms of their interests or their identity or whatever, because I feel like part of the reason I love life so much is because I've gotten that gift myself of being like a kid who just had what I needed to know who I was really clearly, and um that sense of self is like just such a fucking cool thing, and I feel really bad when people don't have that. I'm just like, uh. So if that's all I can do for my kid, that's what I want to do. Um, because I think the second part of that, the question about just what do you want them to know about love, I think it like it really is uh the reflection, right? Like the the root pall, how you gonna love somebody else? You can't love yourself, and um, knowing who you are is the first step to that, I think.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

Like I once heard this quote that said the opposite of love isn't hate, it's fear. And it kind of makes me think of some of the things Russ was saying too. It's like there's so many obstacles that one has to overcome to find love. And sometimes it's fear that they're not gonna like my body, fear that they're not going to like my past, fear that you know I'm never gonna find what my parents are. There's all these fears that kind of Well, those are all external too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

But then there's the internal fear of like letting in love, accepting love, someone to sit in my chair. And being vulnerable, allowing yourself to yeah, to allowing yourself to accept love and um to not want to run away with it.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

To be alive, if you would.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Yeah, the reminder to be a lot that you're alive.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

Yeah, that's what love is, I think.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

I think if that if I were to sum up the definition of what you guys have showed me is that love reminds us that we're alive, and that's why we're here.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

And that's why Sondheim already wrote that song.

SPEAKER_04 51:07

Thanks to Sondheim, we all know love a little more deeply. Now it's time to transition to the lightning round. What has love taught you?

SPEAKER_07 51:18

I'll go first.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Love is an open door.

SPEAKER_08 51:21

That was stupid.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

That was stupid.

SPEAKER_08 51:24

The rest of all of Russell's answers will be bait for me to sing a song.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Lightning round.

SPEAKER_06 51:29

Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_07 51:30

Um, love has taught me how massively beautiful and special it is to get to be live and to know what love is.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

I think love is the overriding emotion that you should experience and allow as part of a larger mosaic, the driving, the driving emotion towards what it is to be alive. I think that makes sense. Does that make sense?

unknown 52:04

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Last question. How do you define love?

SPEAKER_01 52:09

It's it's empathy and forgiveness and care and uh selflessness.

SPEAKER_07 52:14

You throwing those words together makes me think of it like a like a stew of certain feelings and you know, whatever that just combines to become more flavorful. Like the best thing that you could have is love, but it requires certain genuine and authentic and like vulnerable feelings that are empathetic and passionate and curious and compromising.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Understanding. Do I say that? No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_07 52:43

Like, I think it's it's kind of the elevation of all of those individual feelings, and I think gratitude. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Ignoring your ego. Maybe not ignoring, but putting it to the side.

SPEAKER_06 52:54

It's in the love stew. It's in the love stew.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Episode title.

SPEAKER_06 52:58

Oh, you don't like mushrooms?

SPEAKER_07 53:00

Let me pull those back out.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Fun guy.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

And that's all for now. I think that's a perfect place to leave them. You've been listening to The Love Department, hosted by Nick Lockhart. Today's episode was a delicious love stew produced in Brooklyn, New York. A special thank you to Maggie and Russ for allowing us to interview them for today's episode. Special thanks to producer Karen Mento and sound engineer Bree Sealy. Our theme song is Love by Adam Baldick. Please stay in touch with us. You can reach out to the show on the Heartline by visiting our website at www.lov-department.com. For exclusive content that is written, you can subscribe to our Substack for just $5 a month. You'll find a yummy recipe there for a pink lemon rita cocktail. I came up with it myself. But hey, while you're here, leave us a review and subscribe to this podcast. Okay. Now, hand to heart for the count. I wish you love.