Three Stages Of Narcissistic Abuse (And Why You Stayed)

What if the rush that felt like fate was the first turn of a cycle designed to keep you chasing? We unpack the three-stage pattern of narcissistic abuse—idealization, devaluation, and discarding—by weaving Grace’s raw experiences with Claudia’s therapeutic lens, so you can finally name what’s happening and stop blaming yourself. From the intoxicating high of love-bombing to the gutting confusion of silent treatment, we trace how normal bonding chemistry gets hijacked into an addictive loop.

We look closely at how narcissists “spot” partners for status and supply, why perfection becomes the bait, and how everyday moments reveal the truth long before any dramatic blowup. Think small tells: how they respond when you’re sick, how they handle a minor mistake, how they speak to you when no one else is listening. We also break down the brain and body science—dopamine spikes, cortisol fatigue, and why intermittent rewards keep smart, capable people stuck—so you can see that staying wasn’t weakness; it was wiring being exploited.

Then we shift to strategy. You’ll learn practical tools to regain clarity: journaling patterns, recording timelines where lawful, gathering evidence for your future self when memory gets foggy. We explore the roots of vulnerability—childhood neglect, parentification, and the drive to earn love through fixing—and offer a concrete antidote: self-parenting. Step by step, we show how to build self-trust, set and enforce boundaries, and redirect the fierce loyalty you gave the cycle back into your own life. As self-esteem grows from your daily actions, the old hooks lose grip and your gut starts spotting red flags early.

If you’ve ever wondered “Why did I stay?” or “Is it me?”, you’ll leave with language, insight, and next steps. Share this with someone who needs clarity, subscribe for our next chapter on symptoms and recovery, and leave a review to help more listeners find their way back to themselves.

Transcript

Setting The Stage And Authors

SPEAKER_02 0:39

And secure it consciousness. As we rise into consciousness, it's an earthly journey where we sensually embrace dynamic living.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Hello, hello, Claudia. Very nice to see you again. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

I love our monthly episodes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Yes, right. I love it too, as well. Um, so you look gorgeous as ever.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

You look pretty gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

And today we have some interesting insights that we will be discussing from our book. We are moving to chapter three. Our book is called Healing from Narcissistic Abuse: Rebuild from Relationship Drama and Find Your Light Again. I'm Grace, the main author of the book, and Claudia is a licensed psychotherapist based in Washington, DC, who is also a co-author in the book. So, today we decided, Claudia, that we're going to be discussing the three-stage cycle of narcissistic abuse. And when I came across this cycle when I was doing research to understand what I was going through, it was really insightful and it helped me really understand what was happening because up until this point, until you become conscious of certain patterns in life, as we all know, it's very confusing to understand what's happening. And you find yourself all the time guessing whether you did something wrong, questioning yourself, and always striving to fix things, do something better, and always thinking, I I really messed that up. I can see what they're pointing to, the narcissists. Yes, it's true, this is all my fault, for example. And we will give more coherent examples as we get into the topic, as we always do. But I would like to first name the the three stages, and then we can go through some examples. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

I I like that, and I always want to invite you to bring in some of your own examples, Grace, because for me that was one of the most powerful parts of the book, is your alive and raw examples. And I also think it will help people who are listening who might think, oh, it's bad, but I can't tell. Because remember, there's this illusion that is happening the whole time, especially if you're kind-hearted. You're going to be questioning yourselves, just as you described. It's maybe it's me, it's my fault, because there's always kernels of truth in what they're saying. So you'll grab on to the little kernel of truth. You're right. I'm not great at that, or something like that. So let's let's go in and uh undo some more stuff. Do our magic here.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

So the initial stage is the stage of idealization, then they move on to the devaluation stage and then the discarding stage. So let's start by the ideal idealization stage. So, yes, this was a very clear

Defining The Three-Stage Cycle

SPEAKER_00 4:06

what was happening in the beginning of the relationship. Everything felt very blissful because of the love bombing as well. And I didn't under I mean this is normal, no? When you when you start dating someone, we always want to show our best selves and we want to impress each other. I think this happens very commonly when we start dating someone. But the idealization that happens by an artist, they take it to another level. They fantasize and they want to have this ideal lover because they feel so special that of course they feel entitled to someone who is as special as them. So there's this sense of idealization, she's the most beautiful person, she is the best at doing this, or she carries or he carries a status in society, maybe they come from a rich family, or they have certain positions in society, and so there's this sense of idealization. What you represent for the narcissist and how you're going to fuel their ego. However, this idealization stage unfortunately doesn't last very long. But before we go on to the devaluing stage, I would like to ask if there's anything that you would like to add to this because I see that you're jutting down notes as well. And I I can see that even in the book, we noted here that the love-bombing phase that comes with the idealization stage can feel as potent, as addictive as drugs like cocaine, heroin, and ecstasy.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yes, yes, yes. Very good. Yeah, I have a lot to add here. So one is that all throughout this, there's normalcy. It's biological, like it's super normal, like you were saying, Grace, that there's a honeymoon stage. And we're actually that's biological. We're supposed to, in order to bring two people together, there has to be like you're perfect for me, or like the me too stage, like me too, we do this too. I love this music too. Like, right, they're perfect for me. And it's lots of dopamine and oxytocin and sexual desire. Like, that's part of bringing two mammals together, right? Like this attraction stage. So, all throughout, there's normal parts of being

Idealization And Love-Bombing

SPEAKER_02 6:30

human and mammalian, and it makes sense. And it's almost like that's super hyper exploded, exploited by the narcissist, like this normal stage. And and you're absolutely right. I'm gonna track what you were saying. This need for the best. Let's let's uh like approach that from two angles. The narcissist will spot the best, the most gorgeous one in the club, which was you, right? The sexy one, there will be a spotting of each other, but but they will be like, Oh, this person knows how to speak in public. This person is of high status, so they will spot who will move them up the ladder, even in one of your chapters. I remember you going back to his home, and he sort of just wanted you to be quiet, but beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't want it, but because he needed you as a status symbol, like gorgeous but quiet, right? So anything that will bolster and they will spot you. And what I'd like to add there is for the empath or the kind-hearted human, or if you're that person, what I'd like you to add to yourself from a healed empowered place is like yeah, you are that. Yes, you are right, you are the competent, beautiful, you are that package. Now that we want to just put that away for your healed empowered self. But yeah, you got spotted because you are that. You will be spotted by the narcissistic boss as the one who's hardworking, high competent, geared for success. But you will be spotted for the exact right reasons. How do how does that land with you, Grace?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yes, I love that you are mentioning this because when you're in these kinds of situations, you overlook it and you don't realize this. And in fact, it's the complete opposite. You're so confused, gaslighted, and and busy trying to be better that you're you never feel good enough, let alone spotted for something that you have for real, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yes, it is a plot twist that you don't realize until later.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

When when you're you're healed and empowered, but we're gonna put it right up front. Yeah, they will spot you for being the best in whatever because you're needed as a status symbol. So, can I add a few more things to this part? Yes, because frameworks do help us in approaching any relationship. So, yes, the addictive cycle begins in terms of seeking the high. What happens is they idolize you so much, and that's real for the narcissist. They need to idolize you, they need to feel to counteract their own sense of emptiness and their own sense of severe imperfection. Remember, they're constantly looking for perfection, which is a myth and a danger for us as humans, by the way. This and then the empath or the the victim who's felt so imperfect by their own wounding will love to feel like someone sees them as perfect. That's extremely dangerous, and it's uh it's high, it's addictive, someone's idealizing you, even as a therapist, the narcissist will idealize you. And boy, do you feel like everything coming out of your mouth is just amazing. And you have to stay very grounded in your imperfection, and that that's part of being human, and that's the addictive high for them and for you. Go ahead, Grace.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yeah, yes,

Biology Of The Honeymoon High

SPEAKER_00 10:45

and uh, I'm just reflecting, it's true how how seductive this can feel, which makes you feel literally addicted to the person, as we mentioned with like um addictive substances, because your brain becomes so attuned to that feel-good chemical that's being released because of the sense of idealization and perfection that you become hooked on them because of this.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Hooked, literally hooked and constantly wanting to go back. Part of the addictive cycle is that let's say with heroin, with any hard drugs or crack even or anything like that, is you want to go back to that first experience. That first experience. So it's the chasing the high thing, and we talk about it in the bulk. We chase, we keep, but you adored me, but you loved me so much, and they're their most brilliant self, too. Like they are delicious during this time. They're tender, they're sweet, they're noticing everything about you, they're speaking to it, all of it, right? It's really quite delicious. The other thing that as I was rereading this chapter, Grace, tell me what you're you think about this. I was like, holy holy, there's so much dopamine hits going on between the two. The dopamine hits are so intense. Not oxytocin, which is the bonding crust hormone, it's these extreme dopamine hits. Like the highs are really high, even for the person receiving it, you're getting dopamine out. Um and and if I can just be a little bit use riskier language here because it'll lead us into the discarding stage or the devaluation. There's a dopamine hit for the narcissist that resembles a porn addiction or masturbatory behavior because once you orgasm, once they orgasm, it's almost like then they're done.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Absolutely. You couldn't have thought of a better example, I think.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Really, it's this seduction, seduction, like an edging behavior, seduction, seduction with this gorgeous creature that they've idealized, right? It's an edging behavior, which is common in in sexual addictions. And then they peak, they orgasm. And then that's it. And they're done, which leads us to the to the second to the devaluation stage, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And as you're bringing up these examples, I'm also thinking as well that these dynamics happen even in friendships when you start bonding with someone forming a friendship, and if they have narcissistic tendencies, they often do this as well. Where they make you feel seen, connected, they support you, but you can sense that there's an intention behind it, and perhaps they're idealizing you, and maybe they want to get some kind of status through you as well. But then when they feel that there's some kind of safety that has been established, or trust, or emotional connection, they know that it's time to hit. And you can see how it plays around with all types of relationships if you're dealing with narcissists, whether it's a romantic partner, a friend, um, a family member, a colleague. So as we're talking about this before we move on to the evaluation stage, I would like to invite the audience to reflect on whether this rings a bell, whether this feels familiar, um, and to take some time and to do some some reflection on what we are saying.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Beautiful. Because I I think what these episodes allow us to do, Grace, is nuance it more. Exactly. Actually, I'm struck. I want to I want you to co-think with me right now. There's something like if we just say with idealization, there's a sub theme that feels really strong, Grace, about perfectionism. Right? Whether and both the narcissist and the victim or the empath has such imperfect childhood that might feel really chaotic,

Being “Spotted” As A Status Symbol

SPEAKER_02 15:20

or in terms of the empath or the victim, like so unseen, they grow up with this feeling of being extremely imperfect because you're not heard, you're not seen, you're parentified. So, in some ways, that remember, we've talked about how that childhood can feel similar, the way it's played out for both of them. But to feel idealized, to feel perfect is part of the other addiction. Is like, oh, you see me as perfect. And from the narcissist's point of view, is I meet you as perfect. Because something in our childhood felt so perfect, so chaotic, so messy that there's this obsession and compulsion for the perfect love story, for the perfect partner, for being perfect. And I have some ideas. Just just how did your childhood feel imperfect and chaotic, maybe, and needing order and organization?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yes, I I like that you you are mentioning this. I love our conversations because this is what happens. We just like it coming inside and we go deeper and deeper. But yes, it's true. This sense of not being seen, and it kind of feels like the the wounded inner child keeps running the show and is just constantly craving to be seen, and therefore, it means for the child that I am loved, right? And that the child is always wanting to be a little bit better, be seen, to be recognized, to be loved.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

And maybe both the narcissist and the wounded victim were parentified and idealized. The narcissist, this is where they can become narcissistic. The parent is like, you're perfect, you're not your father.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yes, that's always the other side of the story.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yes, they're so perfect. Because a parent can make that child be like, look at my little helper, my little rock, and they grow up feeling that way, that sense of grandiosity. And maybe for us, because I identify as the wounded empath, and so do you, like, right, we're valued for being parentified, for solving and fixing everything. Anyway, like just this something of perfectionism is yes, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

So then this idealization stage unfortunately doesn't last uh very long, and at some point we enter the devaluation stage. So this is interesting because so the narcissist wants someone who seems perfect because they feel entitled to the best. But we know that this is an illusion, right? No, no human being is perfect. So when they start seeing that the other partner is not perfect, of course they get disappointed, they feel frustrated, and everything is amplified from their perception. It's like they complain about, they tend to complain about you know frivolous things, things that you don't need to complain about, they'll make a big story out of them, everything is wrong, they have this negative lens that they look through in life and they navigate life like this. But at the same time,

Addiction Dynamics And Dopamine

SPEAKER_00 19:00

if their partner is succeeding or thriving and is making their ego feel threatened, they're still gonna devalue you because they have to be the best, you can't be better than them. So there's no winning. There's no winning.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

There's no winning at all. Greece, can you talk about that? Because in the devaluing stage, I I wrote, they value, then destroy. I think that was one of your sentences in the chapter, because you're so filled, this is what you're just describing, with envy and therefore hate. It's hate. I envy you and I hate you, and bear these emotions, is what the the narcissist cannot bear these emotions, and also this is true for most of us. I'll talk about that later, is like they can't bear the disappointment of the their partner being sick or having their monthly symptoms or feeling a little depressed some days, like they can't bear the disappointment of their partner being human, being normal, being imperfect. So you describe it, and there's no winning, and there's so much blame, envy, and rage. They can't bear their partner having a life, being human, but practically. Greece, can you give some examples of the blame that happens in the devaluation? Can you talk a little, even if just something comes to mind of you talk a lot about in the book about like not having the right ingredient in a while you were cooking or absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

This was uh a daily battle, unfortunately. So when you say this, I have a rush of memories that pop up. So I remember one of the most severe was that the the Budapest episode when I had that accident, and I really needed to be taken to the hospital and to be cared for. I remember that he got really upset and he got really mad, and even though I was limping, I had a massive bruise all over my chest here, and my legs and my lips were swollen, my teeth were chipped, my braces were broken. So it was quite severe. It was quite a mess. And the next day, instead of seeing how to help me, and we were in a foreign country, he he was really upset that I was messing up his itinerary. It's bizarre. And he forced me to walk over an hour because he felt like walking to this thermal bath in in Budapest because he felt like it. And there's no way that just because you were human and you are injured, you're going to mess up with his itinerary. So as I bring up this example, I invited the the Audience to see whether they can think of any of their stories or examples where perhaps they've felt like they needed support, help with something, they felt unwell. I remember I used to worry that if I got sick, terminally ill or something, my gut feeling was telling me I was like, oh my god, this was five years, right? Into the relationship. And I was thinking, if something happens to me, this person will not care. They will just leave me, carry on with their life. I was scared of aging. God forbid I lose my beauty when I'm aging. But what's gonna happen then? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Yes. Absolutely. So when I was reading their chapter again, audience, people who are listening, because we always need telltale signs, I feel like it's very helpful to be like, what to spot early on? Because people are like, well, how do how can I tell? And one of the questions you can ask is, who are they when you're sick? Which is superhuman if you have a cold. I'll give you one of my examples. And Grace, as I'm talking, I'd like for you to have a more normal day-to-day example because I think what's been distracting in the common culture, and for me too, is that we expect the really horrible narcissists. We expect the really flamboyant, super abusive ones,

Idealization Beyond Romance

SPEAKER_02 23:26

but that's not how it shows up in day-to-day life. How can we track the signals in day-to-day life that are more everyday? Let me give you one of a friend actually. Extremely early on, when I was younger, where I used to go out and party and club and have a great time. And I was with two friends. They were both male. And I remember we were doing the normal getting a slice of pizza after we'd gone out. And we were at one of these fun restaurants, and I had a coughing attack. This is such a really strange. I that memory has stuck with me for so long because at the moment I could feel that something was ripping off. I'll tell you what it was. I just started coughing and coughing and coughing and coughing, and I couldn't stop. One of them left.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Embarrassed. Sorry for being human. Embarrassed. But this is very, and I remember thinking, what who was the closer friend? The other person who I just met stayed with me, started rubbing my back, and went and got me water. Like, are you okay? Stayed with me.

unknown 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

And at that time I didn't know about being an empath. I did ah, clearly, one was an empath. And the other got up and walked away. Something to notice. That's something. And I remember feeling like, wait, I know you more. You're my real friend.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, that's such a real brother because this is something so small that you would probably just ignore it, you know, and continue like you move on with your life. You're like, no.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

I remember it sticking with me, and and then I got water, and then it was all okay. And then he came back. You know, once it wasn't embarrassing, but that's but me as a wounded empath internalized it as I was embarrassing. I cannot cough in public, I cannot get sick, I cannot burden. That's all wounded empath stuff. It's being the burden, is aging, is what if you have a baby and gain weight? Like all of these things, I will not no longer be a status symbol, right? So that's a good example.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yes, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

But we could have one of feeling like you've been cooking all day, of not getting the food right.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Right, yes. That was yes, a daily example where it happened even more than once. I remember that I was cooking and really trying to see what kind of food is gonna make him happy because he was really fussy about food, one of the many things that he was fussy about. And I remember that, which is really yeah, strange, that he he would come into the kitchen and he would like check everything to see that everything was according to his standards. And when he realized that the wrong type of olive oil was used on a salad, he went bananas. And I remember the scene, I sent some love to my past self young girl. Oh dear grace, where I would uh I I endured hours and hours of shame and devaluing comments and punishment. Then we went to the silent treatment, which I mentioned here in the discarding stage, which is the next stage, where I

Perfectionism And Childhood Wounds

SPEAKER_00 27:20

was literally punished because I used the wrong type of oil, and this is something so small. And instead of being appreciative, that this person slaved for hours preparing a three-course meal with the starter and and everything, that he would come into the centrum. And I remember insisting, then it's like, okay, then if you don't like it, don't eat it, then you know. I must say that he did take the food and ate it, but he locked himself into his room for the whole weekend, and I was punished with the silent treatment, which brings us to the discarding stage.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And for other folks who are listening, some of that, what Grace describes as these hours, there is one form of punishment, definitely the silent treatment, is these interrogations. Like, literally, you are whether it's at a restaurant, you had that experience, or in the home of like, why didn't you do it like this? Why didn't you like, and it's like a colicky baby. If you've ever been around a colicky baby, no matter what you do, something is so upsetting to them that nothing hits the spot, whether you move them or rock them or try to feed them, or do they're so disturbed that it the sensation for the parent is that you cannot soothe them, you cannot soot the colicky child. You have to find all sorts of techniques, and this is an adult where you will not hit the spot, no matter what you respond. I thought you would like it like this. I didn't know that you didn't like it. Doesn't matter, you will not hit the spot of soothing their grand disappointment, which of course is a projection. Someone didn't soothe them. The parental wound was never soothing enough. So the projection and the blame is this this your idea of these hours of berating of how you didn't do it correctly, or silent treatment, you will be punished in in some way.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

It's really good that you mentioned this example, this this thing, yeah, because I remember um uh this is sense of interrogation, even. And when you're you're attacked like this, naturally you you don't even have time to think, you're just naturally trying to defend yourself, and then you're questioning, but but why did I do this? Like why? And and you start seeing how imperfect you are because you made a mistake and this is your fault and you should have done better. Everything becomes very foggy, it does. And it's really important to mention that this is not just a one-time thing, this is a cycle. And so for the victim or the emphat, this is very confusing because this is not a thing that happens every day and it's always bad like this. It fluctuates, then we go back to the uh idealization stage where you would get the dopamine hit again. Because a lot of people wonder why you would stay with someone who's always like this.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

And I'd say it would be easier if they were always like this, because at some point you will just really get tired and just leave. But the fact that the dopamine hits, this intermittent positive reinforcement, is cool. You don't know when it's coming. You stay in the chase, you stay in the loop of waiting for it. Ah, if I could have just gotten the right oil, this wouldn't have happened. We would have had the happy weekend that we sometimes have, the amazing time we spend together, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Grace, I'd like to do an episode alone on why they stay, because victims or empaths or kind-hearted

Enter The Devaluation Stage

SPEAKER_02 31:05

people get blamed a lot. Like, well, why'd you stay? Part of the addiction, addictive cycle. So this part is super addictive because part of the intermittent back and forth, because there is a really strategic back and forth, even after discarding, we're gonna talk about that, is the I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I was being an ass. I was in a mood. Um, and and I always say that in that abusive cycle, let's say someone is abusive, they do come back with genuine, what feels like genuine remorse. So if you're kind-hearted, if you're an empath, if you're desperately needing validation, you will take that person back. And that's also human, is if someone's like, I can't believe I did that to you, it won't happen again. Because some sometimes they do come back with the I'm sorry, like it was me, or they come back with a lot of romance or sexuality, a lot of seeming like they've done the work. So, audience, what I'd like you to track is they have they done the actual work. There's lots of things that you're going to be able to track so that those intermittent addictive cycles that the victim wants to, because see, what's addictive for the wounded person is maybe this time I'll be able to do it. Maybe this time I'll jump the hoop. The hoop jumping, there's something addictive of like next time I'll get it right, next time this story will end differently. You keep the Cinderella, right? The mythology, like maybe this time we will be happily ever after.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yes, yes, and it's such an illusion because yeah, and it's unfortunate because years pass by and you don't realize how much time we've waste you've wasted chasing the carrot that you can ever actually reach. And things just keep getting louder and louder until a sickness comes out, or you end up in accidents like what was happening with me. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

You're more and more destroyed, your selfhood is more destroyed, so it's actually harder and harder. There's a learned helplessness, it's harder to lead. And I think in therapy, that's where the intervention or the higher consciousness, which is what you had, Grace, the internal voice that got louder and louder, too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yes, yes, and yeah, how important this to track things down. Remember writing things down, keeping evidence, because you start experiencing even physical symptoms where you have brain fog, you have high levels of cortisol. So this goes into the like physiology of the body as well, not just psychological.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

100%. You're exhausted, you're literally exhausted by the interrogations. It's almost just easier to zombie out, to to just give in. Like it becomes because you're humbled and afraid. Like there's a cycle of what if what did I do wrong now? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yes, and you find yourself always walking on eggshells, which is one of the symptoms of narcissistic abuse syndrome, which we will discuss in the next chapter in the our next podcast. That yeah, you you start going through all these kinds of symptoms and this sense of of hope. I think when when I lost really the sense of hope that you mentioned, this really resonated with me now. Then I I I just like realized you're never gonna get it right. Like, just give up. There's no hope anymore. It's just no, not gonna happen.

Concrete Abuse Examples

SPEAKER_02 35:11

And you just talked about let me just for the audience, like we want to give you as much value as we can. This idea of tracking, we both wrote that in the book. This idea of tracking, whether it's in your journal, because you begin to track that it's a pattern. And you have to remember, this is really hard to write the horrible moments because we will gaslight the memories. We will we need it for even when we leave, we will gaslight ourselves because we're in so much craving of the relationship, of the romance, and Grace, you talk about even recording conversations, and I say to folks, listen, if this is a beautiful love story, then you've tracked your love story. Beautiful, right? Yay, you've written, but if it's not, you can go back and say, I remember Budapest. I remember three hours because I didn't use the right olive oil. You have it there for you yourself to remember because we do get brain foggy. Sometimes we can't accept that someone would be that mean or cruel. We can't accept it.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

That's also it.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yes, yeah, exactly. You're in denial, and I know that you can become so dissociated, as you said, that I know that uh certain people even delete certain memories because it's so painful that they just cannot, it's like mental archive, exam from their consciousness, and some episodes become completely forgotten, but they're still there, so it's really important. So as we move to the last stage, um, the discarding stage that this this can feel very painful because the victim feels completely abandoned, they feel helpless, and at this stage you're you're probably questioning and feeling so scared and thinking whether the narcissist is going to ever come back, ever going to give you another chance, ever going to forgive you for being imperfect, and uh it's it feels very, very scary and triggering for a wounded empath, or even if you're not an empath, you don't identify as an empath, but if you have this wounding, this fear of abandonment, the discarding stage is just going to feel like terror, terror, absolute torture for you. And this is the time where the narcissist is just waiting for you to think of a better plan of how you're going to serve them, to beg, to make things better, and they're waiting it out, and they know that you're going to come back to try and fix things, and then you start the cycle all over again.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

And oh, there's it's so brutal. It's brutal to be discarded. And if you come in with a severe abandonment wound or neglect wound or an abusive wound, which most of us do if we if we're attracted, because see the the healed empowered empath is no longer attracted. We can spot them, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Which is ish, right? Right, Grace?

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Like lately, you've been yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some even if you like start to have a relationship or a friendship with someone, you sort of like by the third or fourth time you're with them, you're like something feels off and you trust yourself more. You trust yourself. That is key.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Trusting, trusting your gut feeling. It knows before the conscious mind knows. It knows, just trust your gut feeling.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Like my example of something felt off that night when someone walked away. You could tell they were embarrassed, yes, and then

Interrogations And Silent Treatment

SPEAKER_02 39:20

came back. Like what I did was blame myself. I must be horrible for coughing.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Right. How dare you?

SPEAKER_02 39:27

It's hilarious, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hilarious. But so this discarding stage actually what it does is the trigger hits a belief we have. We must be discardable.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

We are worthy of being neglected and abandoned because if that is not healed, when we heal, the trigger might come in, but it bounces off. Yes, absolutely. I'm lovable, I'm amazing, I'm a powerhouse, which is why you chose me in the first place. And that's not narcissistic, by the way. It's self-esteem, this self-love. Like I even if you don't see me, I see me. So the trigger will come in. It is hurtful to be discarded by anyone, even if you're at a store and they treat you with dismissiveness, it hurts. But it doesn't go into a place of a belief system.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

So what it does, if you're still very wounded, this is why healing is so important, is it confirms your belief. And so you start this incredible campaign. Yes, it's a campaign to prove that you're lovable, that you're beautiful, that you will do everything. So the anti goes up, the narcissist where the kingdom mind is whipping as more of a whip, whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Like, oh, you'll come back for more, and they will give you more, and they will give you even worse, and it's good. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

And you do come back with more, I'll serve you more, I'll show you more. Okay, okay, maybe I am poly.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Maybe maybe I'll be open to all the things that so there is more risk and there is more danger because the anti does go up.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yes, absolutely. Which yes, as as you're describing it, I I see my my past uh you know in front of me because this is was the the loop that I was stuck in, this this cycle, um, where it did get louder and it did get worse. Um and this the soothing that you mentioned in the beginning of our episode, that it's an inner child wound that they have, that it's just it's like a child who can never be comforted, can never be suited, no matter how hard you try. And the thing that we do when we are in these kind of situations is that we justify, we rationalize, and we excuse these kinds of people. No, today he did this with the olive oil because he had a stressful day at work, things are really bad, otherwise, he wouldn't do that. Because his mother is sick, so he has so much stress, and so this is why he took it out on me and he slapped me today.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

You know, things like that. The stress of the meeting that's coming up because but they say it too. Oh sorry, I've had a really stressful week, so I had to treat you like this because their attempt at self-soothing. Okay, this I think we we've got to put a trigger warning to all of this because it is they require demeaning, blaming, and feeling above you and really putting you down, they feel that that soothes them

Why Victims Stay: Intermittent Rewards

SPEAKER_02 43:10

because they usually feel so horrible inside themselves and outside in the world that, and I know it's hard to believe this, that the reason why we justify it's because for the wounded empath, at least, or for the open-hearted human, it is hard to believe that they're that cruel. Yeah, exactly. Like there's no mental model, or there is a mental model, which is that you were also abused as a child. So you either take it because you're reliving the pattern, or you keep taking it because you feel like at some point this stops.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yes, right? Yes, and it's it's so good that you mentioned this that to help people understand that this is how they regulate themselves, this is how they Make themselves feel better to maintain some kind of homeostasis in themselves by by destroying others, unfortunately, because otherwise they just cannot bear what they're feeling.

unknown 44:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

There's a humanity piece. I want to add the parts that are just normal for mammals and humans. Okay. Like what we talked about, like attraction at the beginning, normal and human and a male. In order for us to have babies or have sex or fall in love, we have to have attraction. At this point, what's normal in any human is what I call like the end of the movie. Is that we do want the happy ending. We do want our parents to finally love us. That's normal. We do feel that if we're the if we solve everything, our parent will finally be the adult in the room. So we chase that character. At some point, if we jump the hoops for this lover, for this best friend, for this boss, we'll finally reach it. We'll finally get what we want. And so that's a normal way of being. Is that of course if I work out, I lose the weight. If I work hard enough, this of course goes into the all is in the small, the small. We we jump these hoops in the in the in the matrix, thinking that if we have enough merit, we will reach places, we will we'll be able to ring the bell. That's human. If we work hard enough, we get the rewards. Yeah. That's a human thing we have. And in some cases it's true, we get the reward, but with the narcissist, we will not, or the narcissistic system.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yes, absolutely. And I just want to add this before we we end um our conversation that ultimately what we are chasing through other people, whether it's to make our parents see us or the the your partner, the narcissist, whoever. The only way that you're going to feel like now you have it, now you've reached it, is when you learn how to parent yourself and give what you've missed as a child to yourself. That is the the end goal, and that is how you will feel like oh my god, this finally, this feeling has been resolved because no other person, not even your own parents, can kind of fix that for you. It's something that you have to give to your inner child, and I encourage the the audience to to look into this, and we will give even more conversation and valuable tips on this because that's how you get there. What do you think, Claudia?

SPEAKER_02 47:02

I I just thank you, Grace. It's like I see me, I hear me, I validate me, I trust me. And that's a long journey of work, but and Grace has done it beautifully. I've done it myself, but it's actually the antidote.

Tracking Patterns And Evidence

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Yes, it's the antidote.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

That is folks can't even get in because not only do we see it all now, we clock it as I say it. Now we clock it early on. But there's actually it doesn't come from the outside.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Absolutely. So, dear listeners, we send them that the amount of energy and time that they are spending or they have spent on a person who idealizes them, devalues them, and discards them to turn that attention and energy on themselves. And can you imagine the amount of love that you have to offer and dedication if you offered it to yourself where you're going to be in life in a few months, years, weeks, whatever, but just it's a starting point, step by step, you'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

You might write an amazing book.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yes, yes, Claudia. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, Soul Sister. Thank you. Amazing as always, and we'll continue our next conversation for the next podcast next month, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Please like, share, share with folks you might think are going through this. I will certainly share this episode for sure. Like, share, subscribe. Yeah, let's let's move this algorithm towards healing.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yes, thank you. Thank you.