Care & Confrontation: Empath Leadership in Washington, D.C.

 What if the method that helps a 17-year-old find the gold in their story could help Washington, DC find the gold in its future?

In this episode, we sit down with Kinney Zalesne — Harvard-trained attorney, longtime Washington DC leader, and former President of Peer Forward — to explore empath leadership, civic courage, and the future of DC politics.

Kinney and I have crossed paths through different chapters of life in Washington — as coworkers, as friends, and as leaders navigating complex rooms. I’ve witnessed her lead with both empathy and backbone long before this moment. As someone who speaks often about Empath Leadership — where emotional intelligence meets structure and accountability — I’ve seen those qualities in her up close, and that shared history informs the tone of this conversation.

As Washington navigates questions of DC statehood, budget autonomy, congressional representation, and a shifting AI-driven economy, this dialogue reframes how meaningful change actually happens: it is seen, structured, and built with intention.

From the Peer Forward playbook — free write, gold mine, then structure — to a bold reimagining of Washington as a “city of service,” we examine how psychological insight meets public policy. Why empath leadership isn’t soft power — it’s disciplined power. The art of pairing care with confrontation. Creating safety and structure so communities can act, while standing firm against narcissistic leadership dynamics that distort truth and erode democracy.

Kinney shares her vision for strengthening local governance, claiming DC’s full representation in Congress, and mobilizing cross-sector leadership in a rapidly evolving political and technological landscape.

Along the way, we explore immigrant identity, trauma-informed leadership, mama-bear ferocity, and the courage it takes to stop outsourcing reality to the loudest voice in the room.

 About Kinney

Kinney Zalesne is a longtime Washington, DC leader committed to expanding opportunity and strengthening communities. A Harvard-trained attorney and former Counsel at the U.S. Department of Justice under Janet Reno, she has worked at the intersection of law, education, and civic impact for over three decades.

As former President of Peer Forward, she helped thousands of students become the first in their families to attend college, building systems that identify potential and translate vision into structure.

She is currently running for Congress to advocate for Washington’s full voice and representation.

Find her at www.kinneyfordc.com
and @kinney4dc.

Transcript

Setting The Psycho‑Spiritual Frame

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Welcome to the Heaven on Earth Podcast. A world where you can stories avoid you. And we design the internet stories you choose. A world where you can have heaven and earth right here. No matter what. Mindful, foster, and secure at all. As we rise into consciousness, it's an earthly journey where we sensually embrace dynamic living.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Hello everyone, and welcome back to a Heaven on Earth podcast.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

And today my intro is going to be a little different because I want the listeners to know that this introduction is going to be a little longer than usual. And that's intentional. Welcome to Heaven on Earth, a space where psychotherapy meets spirituality and where we talk about the human condition in a way that is not religious, but psycho-spiritual. And that's my signature approach. It's grounded, it's embodied, and it's real. And this podcast exists because we are living in a time that asks us for more. Whether it's emotionally, ethically, relationally, collectively.

Introducing Kinney And Her Record

SPEAKER_04 2:01

Kenny is an attorney and a graduate of Harvard Law School. She served as counsel to Janet Reno, working at the highest level of service. She's also helped guide global companies in growing responsibly with an understanding of both power and impact. And this is going to be very important for what's coming on this episode.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Kenny is also DC lover, a 30-year resident of Washington, D.C., and she has spent her entire career, entire career expanding opportunity as a lived commitment.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

She led a DC-based nonprofit that helped thousands of young people become the first in their families to go to college. And she has worked across sectors, government, nonprofit, corporate, always with an ethical eye and long-term stewardship. And now, as Washington, DC navigates the strain of a government in real crisis. Because we're seeing it, y'all. It's happening. Kinney is stepping forward once again. Thank you, Kenny. This time by running for Congress to fight for the people of the city that she loves. But I want to be really clear on this one. This is not why I invited her, even though she's a powerhouse. I invited Kinney first from a personal and intimate place. Kenny and I know each other from one of those formative chapters in life, the kind that is embedded in your mind. We worked together in the 1990s. Kinney. Wow. At College Summit, now known as Peer Forward, Look It Up. You're gonna want to be a part of it. It's an organization built around a bold and beautiful mission, ensuring that teens, particularly young people from Washington, DC, communities across the nation, when I was working for it for sure, they didn't just dream about college, but actually enroll. That's the whole heaven-on-earth combo. We dream, we touch the astros, but we make it happen here on earth. So I'll let Kenny provide all of those statistics. It's value-driven, it's equity-centered, and it is about creating a contagious

Recalling Peer Forward’s Transformations

SPEAKER_04 4:38

energy where we believe that our dreams can become real. So decades later, our roads intersect again. And this time it's not about youth development, it's about leadership, governance, and the future of this city. So let me read. I know this is going on, but Kenny, I just need to set this up for you, okay? I'm gonna read from my book, The Impath Leader, that I wrote originally in 2024. I I put the second edition out last year, 2025. And the leader I was I was thinking about when I was writing sounded like this. In these chaotic times, people are looking for leaders, guides, coaches, therapists, and advisors who can help them find meaning and purpose in this new planetary landscape. From an attachment theory perspective, planet Earth and its human children need some secure parenting to write about now. Humans, the planet at the times are crying out for a new type of leader, one who can respond to a turbulent environment using intuition, self-reflection, compassion, and emotional intelligence. Rather than the age-old contractions based on dominance, fear, and arrogant, skinny. This is you. Welcome to Heaven on Earth.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

I am so glad you're here. I'm so glad to be here, Claudia. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Before we talk about Congress and platforms or policy, I want to invite you here first as a human being. Instead of talking about who you're running against, let's talk about who you are running as. Who you are.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Great. Well, Claudia, let me say, first of all, this is such a huge honor to be on your podcast. And it is such an amazing, I don't know, I don't, it's not a coincidence. It's such an amazing occurrence that we have crossed paths again, that we have found each other again after all these years. Because working together at College Summit, which is now called Peer Forward, as you said, was such a, I think, a peak professional experience. I know it was for me. I'm guessing it was for you. I know it was for many of us who were on the team at the time. We did something very powerful then for so many first-generation college goers, and I think for the nation's capital and and then for the whole nation. And it looking back, I've done so many things since then, and we can talk about you know different things, but that just gives me more perspective to know that what we did together in the late 90s, early 2000s, was there was something very special, very unusual, very powerful about the team that came together and how we tried and I think succeeded to make change in DC and around the country.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Well, and inside these teens. Because really, like if we follow this idea of the empath leader or healing is activism or transformation, the teens felt transformed. Do you remember that, Kenny? I think that's what was so powerful is that we would journey those workshops with the teens who at the end of it felt so transformed by the process.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yes. I mean, that's actually if you'll if it's okay, let me can I share

The Three‑Step Essay Alchemy

SPEAKER_01 8:15

with a little bit about what we did at Peer Forward because it's related and it motivates me now as I'm running for Congress. Like it's all connected. So what we did as an organization at Peer Forward was we helped teenagers dig deep inside themselves so that they could find their core strengths and they could then present them to colleges. And if you recall, like doing that process is not easy. Applying to college is very intimidating because when you're 17, you're you're a big mess of strengths and challenges and stories and data points, and you have no idea which of them, if any of them, are special or important or matter to colleges, and you definitely don't know how to organize them in a way to win over your audience. But at peer forward, we figured, and I don't want to say we, this was not, I mean, there were others in the organization, so I can say how brilliant they were. Peer forward figured out how to teach 17-year-olds how to do that. And even better, we taught them how to teach their peers how to do that. And as a result, college enrollment rates in DC went from under 40% when we started in 1995 to almost 60% uh 20 years later. So it was an amazing thing. And now here's let me just draw the thread through, if I could. So when I left College Summit, one of the other leaders of the organization pointed out or observed that I had done for Peer Forward what Peer Forward did for the students. So he said, itself was, as an organization, was a jumble of strengths and challenges and stories and data points. And that I kind of figured out how to how to synthesize our case and build and grow a coalition of people to support it and and to turn the organization from a scrappy team of people in a basement around into really a national powerhouse that won awards at Davos. And uh and and I'm sure you remember we were hand-selected to receive um a big chunk of Barack Obama's Nobel Peace Prize money. So like it was really transformative. As you say, it was transformative for the for those students, and you you know it because we're still in touch with them now. We know how we are. And it was transformative for the organization. And so part of what drives me now is I want to do that same thing for DC. I think cities, just like teenagers and organizations, sometimes don't know their own strengths, and certainly the rest of the country does not accurately perceive the strengths of DC. So that's part of what's driving all of this uh campaign effort. I just love this.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

I just want more.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

I want more information, like actual data points, really actual data points, because really, when I talk about heaven on earth, it's not lofty. It's really like how do we have these dreams that we bring down and make concrete in real time and in real life. Kenny, can I just chime in with some sort of psycho-spiritual healing stuff? First of all, can we talk about the fact or just add, just throw in here that one of the ways, one of the things, at least when I was working with um Peer Forward or College Summit, that was transformational for the teens was that they had to do several days of free rights and sort of digging up the unconscious, and they would turn these their own life experiences into gold. The high alchemy of this unconscious mining through the free rights that the volunteer writing coaches would guide them through. And then they would have these incredible, powerful, intimate essays that got them into college, amazing, through their own life story.

From Teen Strengths To City Strengths

SPEAKER_04 12:40

So I just wanted to throw that in in terms of working with just who we are, that our story is enough. Their story was enough.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Exactly. And I think that process, I as I recall, it was a three-step process. First, you free write, you just let yourself go, you don't censor, you don't you don't manage the process, you just write, and then you gold mine, like you find within that that that image or that irony or that surprise or that that thing that moves the reader, even just a phrase. It could just be a phrase. You gold mine and you realize there's power in your story, and then only then do you start to do like what English teachers teach you and put some organization on it, you know, top down or bottom up or however you're going to organize the essay. And I have found that process to be, as you say, spiritual. There is something deeply powerful about tapping into your own strengths and your own unseen strengths, like digging for them, mining for them, believing that they're there, even if you couldn't say it. If somebody asked you flat out, what are your strengths? You you couldn't answer the question. But when you when you let go and you put some words on a page and you let somebody else listen, and they help you mine and they help you organize, there's a whole power that was just lying there, sitting there, but you didn't know it. And when you find it, I don't know, some people might call that God, some people might call it spirituality, some people might call it power, but it changed, it transforms things.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Correct. And I think uh the connection that we can make here, the connection we're going to make to you is that in the process, these teens, let's say they were in the middle of the room and they had a group of people who believed, who believed and who were there exactly to see their strengths, to be exactly for that, to support that transformation, one two, to provide structure or frameworks or organization in that process, in that process that might look or seem pretty messy at the time, or at least, you know, lots of loose ends everywhere who can do that because I really believe psychospiritually or psychologically, certainly as a therapist, that when we can provide boundaries and structure and framework and instructions, it's what makes us feel securely attached, which of course then leads us into safety. And safety we're able to explore. And Kenny, I think the translation here is you've done that with College Summit or Peer Forward. You've done that in pretty much every place that you've worked in. And now you're just taking the same approach in looking at DC.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Is that accurate? I think it is. I think that as a society, we're going through some of those, I don't know, growing pains that 17-year-olds go through, right? And and we don't quite, we don't quite know who we are. We think we're pretty good. We don't want to be put down. We, you know, we get defensive if we're told we're not good, but we're not in our hearts, we're not totally sure what makes us special. I think, I mean, what

Confronting Narcissistic Leadership

SPEAKER_01 16:22

makes us strong, what makes us worthy. And I think I think we're fighting about that as a society now. I think I think we have a president who wants us to fight, you know, who tears things down and tears people down and benefits when we swabble with each other. So I think we're all in that phase of not knowing our full strength, not knowing what to rally behind and how to move forward in a way that that in the student's case, you know, that brings us opportunity. In this, in the society's case, in a way that that brings us prosperity and peace and dignity and comfort and and uh you know the things we need to live together. So there's something very deep in that process. We know it's true for individuals, and I and we know it's true for organizations.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

I think it's true for cities, and that's that's what I'm trying to tap into for DC. We can't afford to not know our strengths or to think we don't have them, because then we're more vulnerable and we're weaker, and we we get we don't have a lot of formal power to begin with. So we really can't afford to lose or squander the power that's just sitting there on the table. So we have to know it and we have to show it, just like we told those teenagers. We have to do that as a city so that we can defend ourselves and move forward to our next chapter.

unknown 17:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. So sometimes I take note because I want to circle back because I just start to um because there is a parallel process, and there's a parallel process that you've proven. And I don't know, Kenny, if you've watched my podcast or read my book, there's there's this very particular framework for this podcast that I use that I call The Small is in the all and the all is in the small, right? And you just described that sequence, that journey of the individual who has power, who has strengths, who might not be seeing them, who might be through an identity crisis because what's happening in DC, like there are chapters of our lives. Who you were as a child is different as to who you are as a teenager, a young adult. We know this, right? The identity of how we go on. And this is an extremely particular chapter for our nation. Yes, for DC, because it is feeling so. I I wrote it in the book, it's like uh a Lord of the Flies vibe where it feels just agitated, where there's a ton of uh, you know, people running amok, basically, and it requires a new approach to this chapter.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Any thoughts on that? Well, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you a little political story, but forgive me. I I think it I think it's going in the same place. In 2020, Amy Klobochar, Senator Amy Kloboshar from Minnesota, was one of the Democratic candidates for president. And at one point in her, you know, her campaigning, she mentioned that she is the daughter of an alcoholic. And I remember thinking she's my candidate because I felt like after four years of Trump, we needed a leader who could take us to the next phase. I mean, Trump's not an alcoholic, but he felt to me like a leader out of control, a leader whose own, you know, whims and moods and and insecurities were driving too much of the national household. And I thought it would be like poetic justice or somehow like narrative, you know, propriety or something, if Amy Klobuchar, if the daughter of an alcoholic could take us as a country to the next chapter. Now, she didn't win the nomination. And as I said, Trump isn't an alcoholic, but I think he is what you focus on, which is a narcissist. And I and so I do think we are at this moment where as a country we need to understand the skills and the wisdom and the insights about how to move past narcissistic leadership, you know, how to how to move through it, like how, because we're not through it yet. We've got

Empath Power: Care And Confrontation

SPEAKER_01 21:00

three more years to go. So how do we manage during this time where we where as a country we are led by someone with deep personal flaws that the rest of us are, you know, have to respond to? How do we move through it? And then how do we move past it? How do we break ourselves of some of the habits and you know the this the tactics we used to get through it? So I'm very interested in that. I think that's what the empath, like that like the new class of leaders, has to be able to do. And uh, I wouldn't have described myself that way until I until I reconnected with you and read your book. But I do I think that is what's got to come next. And and we can do it as a country, but we have to commit to it.

unknown 21:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Well, and part of the Empath Leader book when I wrote it was really be, you know, feeling the pulsations of. What was coming and societally, like on planet Earth, this is not just happening in the US. It's it's impacting. The ripples are just impacting. And so, you know, the call to action was to inspire others who are powerful. And these are the empath leaders. And part of the book, the first part of the book, talks about who you are, what the wounds are, the healing that's required, to move into full competence. And the book invites you in the second part to look at your own strengths, just like College Summit. This seems to be a sub-theme, isn't it? To actually sit in the throne of your own gifts and strengths, to have others who are watching it with you, who are there believing in you, in order to come, as I call it, the C-suite, right? With competence and care and collaboration and cooperation. All the the C-suite is these C-words that the empath leader is. Kenny, let's talk a little bit about how your past, I in the invite, I asked you to think about your volume one and your volume two stories. The volume one being the story you were born into, and volume two being sort of awakening moments, like maybe College Summit or Pier Forward was an awakening moment. How do you see yourself as that type of empath leader, being able to confront the big bad wolf or the the narcissist in our national home?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Well, I'm glad you just said the word confront, because I don't know if that's in your C-suite, but it should be. Because here's what I want to say all those words that you did say, care, cooperation, collaboration, right? I think sometimes those are considered soft words. They're very often associated with women leaders, and sometimes not in the most flattering way, right? Like there can be a concern that those leaders won't be tough enough, which is why I love that you just said confront, because I don't think those words are soft. I don't think those words uh take lesser strength. I think they take more strength to lead that way. And but uh and and I want to be clear that that's I agree with you that that is the kind of leadership that that is needed always, but especially after the narcissistic leadership we've been through. So I think it's critical. I think it's hard. I think that you have to contain within you both the care and the confrontation, right? It's not about being a pushover, it's not about believing that everybody's right just because they all mean well. You know, you do have to make hard choices and say yes to some things and no to other things. You have to beat back ideas that are damaging and harmful because there are plenty of those. So I so I love your C-suite description. And I love that it's that it's um it's a collection of strength and firmness and resolve, it even though those words sound

Roots, Gratitude, And Civic Duty

SPEAKER_01 25:30

soft.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Correct, exactly, because when people hear empath, they think soft. And one of the things that I highlight and I say all the time, have you ever seen an empath witnessing an injustice? Exactly, exactly. If you want to see thunder, if you want to see lightning bolts, if you want to see someone trying to save a woman in a protest, possibly risking their life, that's an empath leader. Because empath leaders, uh part of the internal hardware that they've got going is this having to stand up to injustice.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yes. In fact, in a way, I mean, I'm the one who just gendered it, right? I'm the one who said like it's more often associated with women leaders, but there is nothing fiercer than a mama bear, you know, who who thinks her her cubs might be at risk, right? So there so correct. So we may maybe I was playing into an unnecessary stereotype about about women's leadership. Like women are the fiercest leaders and the fiercest defenders, but in order to do that well, you have it's not just by having the brutest physical strength, or by being the most domineering, or by being the most intimidating, right? It's by absorbing, listening and and channeling the best ideas, the the best stories, the best reasons to to decide certain ways and to act certain ways, and then applying the fierce defense and advocacy to those positions.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Right. Which is it's it's it's it's so powerful because the idea isn't like spastic force or dysregulated protection. Correct. That's where it gets very tricky is to respond out of out of raw emotion, although we want it. We don't want to dismiss or bypass the emotions that we're having when we see these things. And and part of the this the second half of the book is talking about regulating and being strategic, because the truth is when you're working with any kind of narcissism, you must be strategic. So whether you're a mom that has to pick up her kids at midnight to leave the abusive partner, um, and that doesn't have to be gendered at all. If you're a husband who has to do the same thing, there has to be a plan, a strategy, deep thought, and deep emotion, right? This hybrid of who we are as powerful human beings. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Kenny, talk about, you know, one of the things that if you go to Kimmy's website and you see her her her her sound bite or her her video is where you talk about, listen, I will respond to a fight if I need to.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Like, no joke, I will let's talk a little bit about where you got that fire. Say more about the amalgam of you, of of how you landed, how you know that type of mama bear ferocity. And again, we actually we're just gonna bring that back, the power of a mama bear, right? And and and this idea of being able to

DC As The City Of Service

SPEAKER_04 29:20

confront with strategy with IQ and EQ. I like to say that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

So, I mean, I imagine that it was instilled pretty early. So I grew up in a middle class household outside Philadelphia, and I would say two things really characterized my family. One was immense value on education. My mother was an English teacher, and all of us, the three kids, we were very privileged to go to great schools, and that was the only really important thing for my parents was to find us the best possible teachers and communities. And I had that my whole childhood, and I'm very grateful for it. And the other big thing that really characterized our home, I think that really just flowed through it, was this tremendous sense of gratitude to America. Like, so my grandparents were born in this country, but their cousins and their aunts and uncles were killed in the Holocaust in different countries, some in the Ukraine, some in Poland. And my family had this very fierce and affirmative and proactive sense that we were so lucky to live in America and that this was a country that would let us live and let us pray and let us contribute. Like let us be grateful to this country and let us want to help it make, you know, be better. And whether that was through the private sector or nonprofit work or whatever we chose, but we had to we had to give back to the country, and we had to protect the country that had been so good to us. We did not take that for granted. Um and I think that that still flows very deeply through me. Everything I've done, no matter which sector it was in, was always about repairing the world. So I do still feel that. My alarm about the state of America now and my commitment to defend it and protect it and help it back on its feet is very much rooted in that feeling I got early on that, like, you can't take this for granted. You must protect it, you must help it be as good for your children and grandchildren and everybody's children and grandchildren. Um, it's a very special place. It's not perfect. I am not suggesting that America itself is not still a work in progress and that it is it hasn't done many, many things wrong. But we should not dismiss how powerful it is.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Well, it's it's interesting because the the the texture that I'm picking up, certainly, you know, I'm Colombian, so this idea of the immigrant story here, too, right? Like those those those the threads that connect us, even if we're from different immigrant communities. And we do know, and I need to highlight this, that that has not been for folks who haven't chosen to be here, right? Like we it it that's a really important part that I think there's a great reckoning going on about bringing to the surface and talking about the immigrant experience, but also the experience in the United States of people who did not choose to come here and were forced into forced labor. So it sounds like those are the your own lighthouse in terms of what you see that you want to do for Washington, D.C. Can we move into Washington, D.C. a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 33:17

And tell me because I'm a I'm a DC lover. I've been here, yeah, since probably as long as you've been here.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Say more about what's the passion that you've got for DC? What do you see? What is your vision behind this school?

SPEAKER_01 33:38

So I've lived in DC for more than 30 years. I raised four kids here. I built my whole career here, all the things we talked about in the uh public sector, private sector, nonprofit sector, political parties, but it was all rooted here. And I love this city. I I love it deeply in the same way that I just described, sort of, you know, I'm grateful to America. I'm grateful to DC. It has been such a tremendous

Community First: Safety And Support

SPEAKER_01 34:05

home for me and my husband and our four kids. And again, I want to protect it. I wanna um I wanna I want it to be that for everybody who either live who has been here for generations or who wants to move here. I've been thinking a lot about the brand of DC and sort of what is special about us. And so here's my yeah, here's my idea, and I'm still workshopping it, so I'm eager for people's reactions. But I think that New York is the city of money, LA is the city of fame, DC is the city of service, and I mean that across all eight wards. So it's partly federal service, um you know, national service, public service, but it's also community service. So the part that has nothing to do with the federal government. There is a deep and strong and powerful current of community service that flows through this city. And I've seen it in all of the wards of this city. So whether you're a NASA engineer or a healthcare policy analyst, wonky person, or whether you're a pastor or a bartender or a miracle working third grade teacher, like there is a deep sense of service in this city and it like a a pride that people give to their work. They they want it to have meaning for them and for others. And I find it very powerful and unusual. I don't think every city is like this. Not everybody has the same sense of of wanting to find meaning in their work and in their communities. They don't always care for each other in the same way. So I think it's something very special about our city. And uh I mentioned that the other day to someone who said we need to get bumper stickers. We need to say DC is the city of service. Like, I want to put that on my car. I want to drive around and let people know that that's the culture that I that I live in, that I choose, that I'm proud of. So we'll see. We'll see if it takes off. But I do I think there's something there. And I think, and here's why it's not just like branding, like what's our label, what's our bumper sticker. It matters because at this moment, the country need is rethinking service. We're rethinking the role of government, the role of nonprofits, the role of problem solving. Like who's supposed to serve the country and how? And I want to say, like, DC has a lot to say about that. We're the experts at it. We've been, it's been in our DNA for all these decades and centuries. So, so as the country is rethinking government and community roles and what as as human beings we owe one another. Like DC should be at the center of that conversation. We don't have all the answers, but we're more steeped in it than than most other cities or regions. So we should be at the forefront of that conversation and we can we can help lead the country out of the these dark times. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Okay, Kenny, because I I love that you brought in the idea of community service, because I think that what needs to happen in these exact times, and we're seeing it, is the power of community, the power of coalition, the power of communal forces coming together. It's turning it around instead of it coming from up here, actually, this surge of power from communities and communities who are willing to serve. And we're seeing that. We're seeing this this uptick in that type of fervor, of fervor. Would you do you nod your head to that? Like that there's something about communal service and communal power that is really essential for these exact times.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I really believe it. Yes, I think, I think human beings always start. It's like what you said originally. First, you have to start as a child or as a and as a teenager to to know you're supported, to know, like to have those

Reclaiming DC’s Identity And Brand

SPEAKER_01 38:55

roots. Without those roots, you can't grow, you can't take risks, you can't, you can't engage the other until you know yourself. So starting with those family roots, those community roots, local roots, and caring for one another, giving one another the strength and the support to be to be capable of then moving to the next level and engaging, you know, other cities, other countries, other religions, other people, right? It starts with that original strength that comes from community support. And I've never seen anything like it like as what I've seen in DC. I mean, for example, like we just had two weeks of this tremendous snow, like really worse than we've ever had. You know, they're calling it Snow Creek, right? Like you can't even shovel it. It's and the people just rallying to help, you know, just groups of people helping elderly people who can't even get out of their houses, helping make sure they have food, trying to shoveling their steps just to make it safe enough to walk to the corner store. Even that took days. But people are caring for one another. Um, and it's often better than the government. And that, I mean, I'm sure it happens in many places. I'm not saying DC has a monopoly on care and community service, but we have a deep ethic of it. It's deep in our DNA, and it's a real strength. And we've got to know it and show it. You know, we've got to know that it's special, know that we should never take it for granted or treat it lightly. We have to be vigilant about holding on to it, and we have to let others who look down on us know that this is a this is a huge strength of ours, and we can help them with because they could use a little more of it.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

Yes, yes. Kitty, the way that I approach this podcast or or even is is from this vantage point that is about seeing what I call the a priori human and all of our strengths and gifts, as what you're describing right there, the importance of how care has kept us as alive as survival of the fittest, that this idea that people come and care for each other as a strength, that this is what propels society or civilizations forward. That it's there's the you know, the fittest of the fit type of theory, and we need it, but there's also this really strong wave of the village who cared for the elderly, for the pregnant woman, for the child, right? And hold on, hold on, one second. Oh, yes. I think that whether other cities see this or not in their own populace, what part of your strength is that you are adamant about seeing it in your city, that you are adamant about seeing that this is the core, the heartbeat of Washington, DC. And the other thing that really strikes me is in these times, because so much is shaken up and wobbly, this idea of rebranding and rethinking, and how do we take the bricks from from what feels like systems falling or or you know, what is DC? What is DC's new identity? How how do we take what it's always been, but also know that we're in a new chapter? How do we take all of that? So I love this idea in some ways of rebranding the city.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Is is that what you're saying? Am I reading that right?

SPEAKER_01 43:08

I think look, we we get branded whether we like it or not. So, like, right, like the president calls us names and makes up fake crime emergencies. Which is not to say we don't have a crime problem, but he made up a fake crime emergency. He taps into deeply racist tropes to label us, criticize us, belittle us, and take our power away. So we're gonna get branded and we've got to do it. We've got to fight back. So it's not like we can choose between no brand and this brand. Like we're gonna get branded, and it's likely to be incorrect, nasty, and damaging if we don't take control of that. So that's partly why I feel so strongly about getting about doing.

Rights, Representation, And Statehood

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Doing it ourselves, but having it be accurate. We're the ones who know. We live here. We have we have you know he doesn't know. And and the people who are vulnerable to accepting stereotypes and old damaging tropes, like they don't know either. We know. So we have to tell the truth. No one's gonna do it if we don't. So I feel very strongly that that's the first step in defending ourselves. And it's the first step in empowering ourselves to do more than just defense, but to really take ourselves forward and to help lead the country. Not just, you know, we don't need to just beg for our scraps. I mean, sometimes we do because we're DC and we don't have a vote. So we sometimes have to we have less formal power than everybody else in the country. So sometimes we so we are in a more vulnerable position. But I refuse to see that as the sum and substance of our identity. I mean, of course, I want to fight for statehood, so we don't even have that problem. We should have the same rights and privileges as the rest of America, and we 700,000 people in DC are the only ones who don't, and that's a stain on the whole country. But even before that, so I want to fix that problem. But even before that, we need to understand we can we must participate in leading the country out of these very dark times. We cannot be passive victims and sideline players, even though we don't have a vote. We have to be part of the leadership of that takes us out of that that has a vision that inspires people and takes us out of these dark times and takes us to something better that can still be that that can be the nation we all want to live in. And so we so we've got to know those strengths. We can't go out and engage the others and lead the others and inspire the others if we don't even think we're strong enough for it. So it's we we've got to go through some of that process, which might be called branding, but it but it also might be called, you know, identity forming. Identity forming, yeah, or therapy.

SPEAKER_04 46:17

If DC has a lot of identities, like we all do, who I was in my 20s is not, I mean, I have pieces of her, right? And I love her, but you just gave me the chills because I just felt your ferocity, Kimmy. And I just felt your your passion for this, and it feels like this. So if I talked about it as a psychotherapist or the all is in the small and the small is in the y'all, it's like you don't get to tell me who I am. I tell me who I am. You do not tell me who I am. I tell me who I am. And in order for me to know who I am as an individual, as a city, as a corporation, whatever, right? And we can keep going. The all is in the small, is I need to know myself. I have to have believers, um, and and and to come to align, to holistically align, who are we and who are we on this landscape? And I'm so fired up by it.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

Feels a little bit like you know, I love these stories, like the underdog story.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

When you say no, we are here to help lead the nation as well, which is a wacky thing to say in terms of being the capital of the United States, and yet feeling like the capital still has to fight for its rights, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

That's totally right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's why there's such a huge gap between how we are currently perceived and who we ought to be. And it's it's such a it's a waste. It's a is we're squandering our potential to use like words of you know, of like investing in teenagers. And it's it's it's a waste for the country to squander what we could be leading, how we could be leading and what we could be offering. And I can't stand it. And that to me is the role of the representative of the people of DC. I want to represent our tremendous strengths. I want to mirror them back to my to my neighbors, to my fellow residents of DC, and I want to represent them to the rest of the country. And I want us to get the respect and the rights and the representation we deserve because of all those, the strengths we bring, because we're because we're Americans and we should have them, no matter how strong we are. But we are so strong, how dare they not borrow our great strength and what we bring to this country?

SPEAKER_04 48:53

The sub-theme that feels so powerful that you're describing is being seen. And I think that's a sub-theme that's going on all over the nation for all for all types of groups of people, for ourselves as humans,

Rethinking DC’s Economy And AI

SPEAKER_04 49:10

is we will be seen. Yes, we will know who we are. Um, and feeling, and the fight is of that great despair of being unseen. But what I can feel in you, uh, Kenny, is we're gonna turn this around because we are going to see it. I will help DCB scene, I will help this family of DCB scene. But it's it's an actual thread that's going on all over 2025, 2026. What's possible?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

I love what you're saying. I do think that part of this administration's strategy is to unsee, right? They want to unsee whole chunks of our population, they want to unsee whole chapters of our history. It's to their advantage to do that. It's like some kind of, I don't know, psychosis they've got going on where they want to see themselves in the center and everything else is a little inconvenient.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

We we fight back well psychotic strategy. So we don't want to like that's a that's a strategy that's going on.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Yes, yes, exactly. It's okay, and we fight back, we confront that strategy by insisting that we are seen. They don't get to decide what's true just by yelling it louder and louder. We know what's true because we see it, and we've got to say that loudly. We've got to say it with we shouldn't have to be such heroes to merely observe the truth. Like you would think that's just table stakes, but it's not because they are trying to unsee people and history and and truth. And so we've got to fight against that by seeing with great resolve and declaring with great certainty and conviction that that we are here, that we matter, that our stories count, that and but it's even that's almost too passive. It's that we have so much to offer. And how dare they decline what we bring? How dare they squander the strengths that we can and do bring to this country?

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Right. That's where you went from defense into offense, actually, when you said, like, I we just don't want to have the defensive, you know, building the case in a defensive way, but it's actually más o menos, right, building the case in an offensive way. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not just begging here. We've got a lot going on, which is so empath leader. Kimmy? It's so empath leader to be like, oh no, no, no, no. There's a lot going on over here. Kimmy, will we tell?

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Let's move from, let's do a play on words, and and you know, I we're we're we've got a few minutes more, but let's move from this this idea, the metaphor of being seen and and the actual symbolic nature of being seen and the the urge, the desperate passion to be seen from the all to the small, the small to the all, right? Since since we're children, and that we are better stewards and creators and curators of our life when we are seen and heard, and then when we start to see ourselves, right? All of that.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

What is your vision? What's your vision? What you what what are you cooking up for DC?

SPEAKER_01 52:45

So I think it's two things. First, is in this bucket of rights and privileges. Like we've got to have the same, we've got to have independence, we've got to have the same rights as every other American. So no other democracy on earth deprives the residents of its capital city of the right to vote in the federal legislature. We are a complete outlier on the world stage. There is no reason to do it. It's not promised in the Constitution, although people have this vague sense from you know middle school that, like, oh yeah, it was in the in the founding document that DC can.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

And it's not, right? Let's be clear. There's there's no there's like there's no logic behind it. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 53:33

I mean, there does have to be a federal district, which but that can be the White House and Congress and the Supreme Court and the monuments and some museums. You know, that has to be c carved out where nobody in that space but nobody lives there. So in that space, there's no voting right. That is a federal district. But there's no reason that the 700,000 of us who live near that space can't be full American citizens. In fact, I guarantee you it's a political issue. It's not a constitutional issue. So that's one bucket of things we must have. We must have budget autonomy so that the so Congress stops messing with and overturning our budget. It's not even we're not even asking for federal money. This is our own locally

Crisis As A Narrowing Window

SPEAKER_01 54:20

raised tax dollars, and they overturn it. Every time we make a plan, they tell us we can't do what we want to do. So we have to we have to have budget autonomy, we have to have a vote on the House floor, we have presence there, that's the seat I'm running for, but we have to have a vote on the House floor, and ultimately we have to have statehood, which means a governor, two senators, and the the same level of representation as every other American. So that's one big thing we must fight for. And I think, look, we've been at this fight for 250 years, give or take. This may be the moment that the rest of the country is seeing how vulnerable we are and how just wildly unfair this situation is. So that's one big bucket. And then the second one is we have got to rethink our economy in a way that doesn't depend so much on the federal government. I mean, we have for a long time been a company town. You know, we have been able to defend depend on the federal government, and it's a huge ecosystem, not just the uh the many tens of thousands of people who work for the federal government, but the ecosystem that surrounds it, the taxi drivers and the dry cleaners and the coffee shops and everything, has been a very thriving ecosystem for DC, but it's shrinking because of the huge cuts. I mean, DC is projected to lose 40,000 jobs in the next few years because of the, frankly, reckless cuts uh to the federal agencies. So we've got to rethink our kind of Oh, and even if that weren't true, even I mean, even if we could still depend on the federal government in the same way, AI is changing everything. And this is true everywhere. But the nature of white-collar work is gonna change dramatically. And right on the heels of that, the nature of blue-collar work is gonna change dramatically. And if we don't get ahead of this, if we don't put our A-team in place to think about how is DC gonna capitalize on our strengths, protect our vulnerabilities, how are we going to build for the next chapter, then we're gonna be very weak in that arrangement. We're not gonna be the winners. And I can't stand that. I can't, um, we have got to put our best cross-sector leaders, our most experienced people to the task of figuring out how we're gonna get through this transition and come out as winners on the other side. And I don't see anybody thinking about it. That's that's not what DC leaders have tended to focus on. And we've we've got to change our game. And we've got to, we've got to take this city into the next era and do it successfully.

SPEAKER_04 57:06

Yes, yes, yes. And talk about rebrand. This is the moment. This is the moment of an identity shift, like completely, because who are we, right, without government dependence and that just the word dependence, it is a time of DC adulthood, of becoming its own sovereign city, but also, and I talk about sovereignty in a way that I talk about it psychologically, right? When we individuate Carl Jung's idea of individuating, it just means that we learn to love and care and respect parents, respect our traditions, and respect our past, but that we start to become our own selves, the synthesis of what we've picked and choose of who we are. And you are completely describing that for Washington, DC. The other thing that that you're really bringing up for me, Kenny, is the whole Chinese proverb of crisis is opportunity. And that's been true for this country, that in moments of crisis is actually, but you have to do it while the iron is hot. And that's what you're saying. Not when we're having to pick up so many pieces. How do we create this vibrant, independent? And what I mean by independent, everyone, audience that's listening, is that no longer feeling dependent because that puts us in a real underling position. And therefore, we're beholden to anyone who leads, anyone who's who decides to be the parent of this home, of the Washington, DC home. And and that's got to change. I I I love this. So it sounds like statehood identity forming and establishment, but also this a strong, powerful economic base that needs some tweaking, reconfiguring based on service, but also touching the new, right? In identity, in identity theory, there's this. You start with your thesis,

Courage, Strategy, And Closing

SPEAKER_04 59:20

what you were born into. There's an antithesis stage, the teenager, young adult, like, I don't want to be like you, family, traditions, parents, and then you bring it into synthesis. What do we want from what DC has been? Thank you. Thank you for people who've served it in the past, for living out those chapters. That's a new chapter. It's a new time.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Exactly right. And and it I agree with you that crisis is opportunity. I don't think I think crisis can uh outlive opportunity, which is to say that we have to seize it quickly. Uh seize the because um the crisis can get so big that the opportunity can shrink. So so it's urgent. It's urgent to get this right, to set ourselves up for success. And and there are no guarantee, like I don't there's no guarantees that all crises turn into well uh well-executed opportunities. You know, like it's gonna take a lot of work, and but we we better get going.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

We better get going because Yeah, but what I hear you saying is that we we're gonna take our shot, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

We better take our shot. And I I do not I I I insist that this city take its shot. Yeah, that's that's what I am trying to make happen. Correct. Kimmy, could I ask you one question?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

Just really firing me up, empath leader. I always talk about the fact that it's not that we become fearless, it's that we we still become more courageous. It's like it might be that it's still scary to have these transformations, these identity shifts, confronting it's it's not easy to confront the narcissistic lover, parent, company, boss, but it's not. It it does require some very solid strategy. Can you just from a personal standpoint talk about what makes you courageous just to tap into your your lion heart?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Well, I think so. There are two two things that jump into my head. One is that I think it's kind of a I think we owe it to ourselves to be as courageous as we can be. In other words, we sell our creator short if if we were given a certain potential for courage, and we don't use it. And I never want to sell that short. So that's a piece of it. I also think it's a bit what you said about the experience of having been around narcissistic people in any form, and you and you know how they make you feel. You know that they make you feel lesser. And if you're a generous person, you'll know it's it's their problem, it's not your problem, but that takes years to figure out. You don't know that in the moment. In the moment, yes, you you step and guess everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

And it's only after you learn that that they were wrong, not you, that you then realize like I need that courage, I need that strength to make sure I don't waste any more time. Second guessing, or I don't waste any more time thinking that their problems are in fact reality and truth. And so it's it's like this fierce vigilance that you've got to have inside, which I think very quickly becomes courage. And because again, like you can't bear for those faults and that sadness and that insecurity or wherever it comes from, you can't bear for that to become truth and reality just because they're bigger and louder. It's just not right, it sells too many people too short. And I I I that offends me. It offends me in my core, in my heart, and it's bad for everyone. It it makes us lesser as people and as communities, and I'm determined to have us be everything you know we're we're capable of.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

I'm gonna let those be your last words. I'm gonna let those be. Just if the audience can just hang with the glimmer of those words. Kenny, thank you for being on this podcast. It aligns beautifully with the larger vision that I have for heaven on earth and for empath leadership for sure. Thank you so much for joining us. We're looking at you, we're following you, we're seeing you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Okay, well, thank you. It's such an amazing treat and privilege to talk with you, Claudia. Always, always and especially today. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:04

We'll see you on the next Heaven on Earth podcast.