Why Every Hard Talk Suddenly Becomes Your Fault

One honest sentence like “You hurt my feelings” can trigger a full-blown reality warp in a narcissistic relationship and it is not your imagination. We sit down together to name the pattern behind that whiplash and to give you a clear blueprint you can recognize in real time. Grace and Claudia Kauterucci, a Washington, DC psychotherapist and co-author of Healing from Narcissistic Abuse, walk through the four-behavior cycle that often shows up during conflict: the narcissist’s ego feels threatened, abusive tactics appear, the victim role flips the blame, and the interaction ends in punishment, discard, or your surrender so their ego stabilizes again. 

We ground the theory with concrete examples from partners, parents, and authority figures: gaslighting that turns your feelings into “proof” you are unstable, guilt-tripping lines like “I’m a terrible mother,” and the heavy silence of stonewalling that pressures you to fix their mood. We also talk about how empathic people get trained over time to stop speaking up, how “selfish” accusations land on old wounds, and how healing can reframe that trigger into protecting your capital S Self through boundaries and self-care rooted in reciprocity. 

A harder section tackles secrecy, consent, and coercion, including how sexual pressure can become a domination tool and why abuse thrives when no one talks about it. We close with trauma-informed grounding, the idea of cultivating an inner safe space you can return to, and a reminder that facing the shadow is how you find your light again. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs clarity, and leave a review with the question you want us to answer next.

Transcript

Welcome And The Book Context

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, lovely Claudia. Welcome. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Very good from the other side of the world. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello. Hello. So, so happy to connect with you again. Today we will be discussing another chapter from our book that we have co-authored together. My name is Grace, and we have Claudia Kauterucci. She's a psychotherapist based in Washington, DC, and we wrote the book Healing from Narcissistic. And together we are joining here to discuss chapters from the book. And today we will be talking about the four-behavioral cycle of a narcissist. So for the audience to introduce a bit this concept, narcissists, when they get into an argument, they tend to follow a particular script. So we will go through these stages, and I want you to start thinking of examples and to even jot down, maybe get a notebook or on your phone to jot down some patterns or red flags that you might be noticing, whether it's with a friend or with your partner or with your parents, and to see whether you can identify these patterns. And Claudia will provide even more insights as she starts to usually channel messages. You know, she's very good at that. Right, Claudia?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I make connections. Yeah, I make a lot of connections. It's I start to disconnect, it pops.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yes. So let's start by the first uh stage, which is when the ego feels threatened.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

So we know can I just say one more thing before just really quick, when you use the word script, I'd like the audience to understand that once you watch us more and more, you'll realize how scripted it is. What feels very unpredictable and spontaneous and dangerous even from the narcissist. Part of what we're trying to do is actually provide you this blueprint, this script. And that's all I wanted to say. Like that was really important that you use that word, Grace, because that's what's going to be helpful. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yes, yes, I absolutely agree. And it becomes so much easier to anticipate, and so you can prepare yourself and protect yourself in relationship. So we know that the ego of the narcissist is quite fragile, and even though some of them may seem overly confident, it is a mask, it is a persona that they present to the world to protect their sense of emptiness, void, vulnerability, and fragile ego. Um, so when the ego feels threatened of a narcissist, they tend to gaslight, manipulate, or project what is happening onto the other party. So, for example, let's say you confront the narcissist with something you feel like your feelings have been hurt and you try to communicate this to them. What will happen is that the narcissist will most likely defend themselves instead of trying to empathize and being open to what you're saying and listen to what you have to say, they try to deflect the situation, they project it on you because their ego feels threatened and they they cannot handle criticism and they get into a defensive mode immediately. And then naturally, they will start engaging in abusive behavior. So instead of being heard, and instead of validating your feelings and your experience, they will start actually taking advantage, abusing you, using belittling comments and nasty adjectives, for example, calling you crazy or telling you that no, you're just too sensitive. You're always complaining, nothing is ever good enough for you. And all of a sudden, you're in a place where you actually have to defend yourself

Stage One Ego Feels Threatened

SPEAKER_00 5:00

instead of actually discussing the initial issue that you were trying to communicate. I see you're writing, Claudia.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so much here. Um, and and so let's let's do our dance as we always do. So, one thing that's like helpful for the audience to know is that the narcissist has erected, constructed an ego. And we all have an ego. It's basically like the persona that we use in order to engage with with people, with planet Earth, right? We're not telling everyone that we feel insecure or scared. So we erect a persona at work, at parties, at a happy hour. This is this is one of the key differences, though, that this ego that they've erected is literally like a scaffolding with some that feels super empty inside. That's really important, right? So we might be able to go to a best friend and say, oh my God, I felt so scared, I felt so insecure. We might be able, even if we have an ego, an ego persona, we also have the inside of our fears, of our pain, of our trauma. Okay. What happens with the narcissist, though, is that there's this intense sense of emptiness, and so it feels absolutely unbearable. Unbearable to go inside. So if someone like Grace is confronting, or not even confronting, just saying something like, it doesn't have to be a confrontation, does it, Grace? It could be something like you hurt my feelings. Like that was really hurtful that you seemed dismissive at the party. Right? Something like maybe in the car, you might say, like, like I really didn't appreciate her. That just felt hard, or you hurt me. You hurt me. Okay, yeah, because and that will feel like a confrontation to the narcissist, right? You are calling them out.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Exactly, and that is something that they just cannot stand, they cannot bear to deal with being called out. And um, it is true, and I think it it is important to differentiate between this ego that I'm talking about that we're discussing from the narcissists, and the healthy, normal ego that everyone has, as you mentioned, that we actually need to navigate society. It's important to have this protective uh filter that helps you discern on whether you can be vulnerable with certain people, but also discern that you you don't need to tell your deepest, darkest uh fears and and secrets to everyone in the world, but there's this difference, as you said. I really like this analogy of us having a scaffolding, not just a filter, a scaffolding.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

And what's so fragile about it is that that scaffolding is a mask. So in in others, or in us, let's say, it'll be these levels of personality. Like, do I tell them about my wounded childhood? This is who I am at work, this is who I am at a happy hour, this is who I am with childhood friends, right? And we know that it's almost like we know which which person, it's not really a mask. In the case of the narcissist, it's an actual mask, which is why it feels so fragile. And the calling out, or even the just saying that really hurt my feelings, involves the narcissist to have to go inside. And so if you can picture an immediate like bounce back, I call it the bounce back, they cannot even have it go inside, so they will immediately project it out, abuse it out, defend it out.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yes, exactly, because otherwise, if if they admit of any wrongdoing, it means that they are not perfect, and they are not omnipotent, and they made a mistake, and that is that because their ego is so fragile that is absolutely unacceptable for them to take in.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

And I think you make a good point there, they lose dominance because remember, it's all about there's only one relational paradigm, which is superior, inferior. And that all that that's super rigid duality there, right? So they immediately feel feel like they're going to the inferior status, if they say, Wow, I'm sorry I did that. Like my back. Um God, Grace, you said something that, oh yes, and I like to nuance this, and you and I've talked about this. It is semi-normal to be defensive, right? If someone said that to you, like, hey, when you made that comment that hurt my feelings, you might say something like, Oh, I didn't intend that at all. You might defend a little bit, but you might continue listening. Right? So sometimes in the case of the narcissist, though, what you're describing is like there is this sequence of defending, deflecting, distracting, abusing all of it is this is all about you, and I can't let any of this data or information go inside.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yes, exactly. And I think this is the part where it gets tricky because then, which is the third stage of the four behavioral cycle, is when they start playing the victim. So now all of a sudden the tables have turned, they switch it completely, and all of a sudden you're the bad person. So if you feel like your feelings have been hurt, you feel like you've been neglected, dismissed, all of a sudden it's you actually who's doing this to the to the narcissist. And if you don't realize what's happening, if you're not aware of this, you can so easily miss it. And you will start doubting yourself, you will start questioning yourself, and you won't realize, and this has happened to me countless times in the relationship until I became aware of this for a behavioral cycle. And then once I became aware of it, then you can't unsee what you have seen, right? And it starts becoming obvious. And when I was going back to to tell to tell this person about something, I could see it, I could see the pattern. And then instead of getting lost in the thoughts in my head, trying to understand whether I'm actually doing this to him, I'm understanding this is a deflection. It's trying to avoid actually what I'm trying to say. And then when they realize that you you basically cut them out on their game, they're either gonna completely avoid you or dismiss you, and that can feel very threatening to the other person. So you have to be ready to prepare yourself of um what's coming because they're not gonna make it easy for

Stage Two Gaslighting And Abuse

SPEAKER_00 13:10

you, they're not gonna understand your empathize. You gotta be ready.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yes, for punishment or abandonment. Grace, just really quickly, can you just number the four stages? Just so we have it very clear.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So, first the ego feels threatened. This is stage number one. You push the button, the button has been pushed. Then they engage in abusive behavior, and then they start playing the victim. And then you either stand your ground, which is why I was saying you gotta be ready, because you're gonna go through either the dismissal stage, you're gonna be discarded, the silent punishment, abandonment, rejection, or you give in, you surrender, and then they feel empowered again. The ego has stabilized itself, you gotta break until the ego feels threatened again, and you get back into the cycle. So it's important to understand that this is not something that happens once, and that once it's over, it's gonna go back to normal. It's a repeated cycle.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah. So good, so good. And let's give, I'd like to give when when you're talking, I I start to get like examples. Um because playing the victim, for example, if this is a parent, it might look like this. Okay, I'm a terrible mother. Terrible. So there's like these sweeping statements that are actually ridiculous, but again, they serve to deflect. They serve to like fine. If I'm so horrible, right, why are you with me? Why like so it the what you're asking for completely loses its power. Or something like everyone has trauma. Everyone gets their feelings hurt. Um, you are too sensitive, the the the saying that it's all you. So it these are the forms that it might look. Um, another form it might look from maybe a lover or or a spouse, it might look like um this is why I can't live with you. This is why I can't live with you. This is what you do to me. This is why I can't stand doing this anymore. So immediately you're scrambling to stop that crisis. Like, mom, no, you're not a terrible mother. I just need you to hear what you're you're scrambling to defend or to explain or to convince. So these are some examples of of what that might look like. And the victim piece is really powerful because if you're an empath, which Grace is and I am myself, or just a kind-hearted person, or just a child who wants love from their parent or from their lover, if they play the victim, it will really activate your kind heart. You will run to help them, save them, console them, comfort them. No, of course you're not a terrible mother. You've been a great mom. It's just that in social situations, I would really prefer right and they will stick to like forget it, forget it, fine, I'm a bad mother, and they'll walk out. So there's there the abandonment wounds, the discarding, the I won't listen anymore. This is some of the ways that it I guess you prefer your father, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Oh my god, yes, this is so true. And uh yeah, guilt tripping, which is one of the ways of how to spot this these kinds of behaviors, guilt tripping. It's exactly what you're explaining. And of course, the the other person will try to protect them as you're saying, and all of a sudden you're the bad guy, and you're felt you're left uh feeling guilty. Oh my god, I am such a drama queen, or I am selfish, or I am not a good daughter, a good sister, a good friend. All of a sudden you're the bad guy, and they switched it on you.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Well, and the training, the conditioning, right? Because then it conditions you if I need to say something again, or if I feel something again, this is going to get explosive. It's gonna get that I'm hurting them. So you start to quietly be conditioned to not speak up.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Exactly. They want to train you so you don't confront them with these kinds of feelings again, and your nervous system, even on a subconscious level, feels it. You start walking on actuals around these people because you're scared of the drama that you're about to face every time you try to communicate your needs or feelings.

unknown 19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Grace, I see this so much in clients with narcissistic parents. It's so painful. Because the child, first of all, needs to be seen and loved. And this this translates to parents or a boss. You need you desperately what you're asking for is to please be seen and loved. And then when their guilt trip, this guilt, this guilt is such, it's super glue. It keeps you there because the other conditioning is that it trains you to do more, to compensate that you actually said something, that you spoke out about your feelings. So you either become super more hardworking or super more available or super nice or more quiet. These are some of the ways that those expressions begin to form inside of you. You get the message very clear. Don't do this again.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yes. Yeah, exactly. And they start changing expectations, even when now you're trying even harder to please them, to make sure that they feel loved, that they feel okay, and uh that your your mother or your father they feel appreciated by you, uh, or your boss, even as you said, or your friend. And these I see these dynamics playing out in in all kinds of relationships. And I I I think it happens on on a daily basis so easily that we go through these kinds of manipulations by other people. So we have to be really careful placing boundaries with people, and when

Stage Three Playing The Victim

SPEAKER_00 21:00

we feel like we're being um uh you use this word uh the claudisms that you like to use, emotionally molested, molested, emotionally molested. Because that's how I used to feel, you know, with the sense of guilt tripping, that I need to be better in taking care of their feelings and needs instead of mine.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Exactly. It really quickly inverts the dynamic. Can we say a little bit about emotional molestation? Just so folks because I think it's a phrase. Do you agree with this, Grace, or maybe not, but that once you have it, you really know it.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yes, you understand exactly what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Exactly. So just a slight trigger alert. The the the way that I created this phrase was thinking about sexual molestation. And sexual molestation involves grooming and seducing. The child, a child who might feel very alone or neglected, or is unprotected at the moment. So it becomes very confusing if you're getting ice creams and attention, and that there's actual, and that for me is emotional molestation because there's a confusion, and again, a little bit of a trigger alert, if that's okay, is sometimes when there's sexual molestation, the body will respond. It doesn't mean the child is liking it, but the body itself will have a response to the action. I'm just gonna stop it right there in case it's too triggering for folks. Put it in the comments if you want me, if you want us to describe a little bit more about that. So sometimes the perpetrator will feel like, see, this is all working. But it's separate. It's separate. If the child has never experienced something like this before, for example, okay. So with emotional molestation, the heart will respond. The heart, the kind heart, and the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the child, the daughter will respond, doesn't want to hurt another person. Um, I got a meme the other day of a father. There was this little tiny girl, she might have been four, and she was crying because what he was doing was the way he was teaching her a lesson was telling her a scary fairy tale about a little girl who had been bad and was locked in a castle, and a witch was coming. And unless the little girl said, I'm sorry, and the little child, the lip was quivering, they were starting to cry. And thank God the dad changed the story immediately. But for me, that was actually not a sweet meme, it was emotional molestation because the child's little heart was starting to get afraid and feel bad in ways that was unnecessary. Am I making myself clear there, Greg's?

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand what you're saying. Um, yes. And as uh exactly, if you're you're a kind-hearted, compassionate or empathetic, like highly empathetic person, of course, you you don't even have control over this. And it's something that I needed to learn how to develop across the years to learn how to feel kindness and compassion for other people still, but hey, don't forget to feel kindness and compassion for yourself as well, because your needs and your emotions also matter as much as other people's. And abandoning whatever I was feeling to make sure that others are okay became unacceptable. And then I switched it around and I started to make sure that I'm okay, I'm not responsible for other people's emotions. And this is something so common when you're in narcissistic dynamics and relationships because you feel responsible for the other person's emotions all the time. All the time, and it's such a heavy burden to carry because these people, their emotions, it's an emotional roller coaster, then they don't know how to emotionally regulate themselves, and they make you feel responsible to do their job that they're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Exactly. That's such a good point. Because in some cases, if they're quite nefarious, that's a strategy. You are responsible for whether I'm having a good day or not. You are responsible for my childhood trauma. You so that that's an actual strategy. When it's not a strategy, it's because you're so dysregulated that you're running around just trying to harmonize the environment. Um the the other way that it shows up, and I like giving examples because sometimes people might not connect with one form, is in the silences. Elaborate, tell me more, is in these heavy either stonewalling silences as a punishment, right? Silent treatment, or in the mood silences. Oh, yes, yes, so powerfully energetic. Again, whether you're the child, the daughter, the spouse, the lover, the boss is this um emanating the mood, the bad mood, the punishment out to you. Where again it activates this defending, explaining, convincing, I'll try and make it better. You know, how can I serve you to shift this environment or to shift your mood or your thinking?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

It's so dysregulating then, because their dysregulated nervous system projects everything onto you, and then your heart is beating faster now. You're the one sweating and feeling scared and trying to figure out how to make them feel feel better. I know I've had times where I was called selfish and self-centered because I refused to abandon my um duties that I I needed my errands. I didn't, I refused to do this to serve the other person. And I was being called self-centered for not doing this. And this happened for years. It took me years to realize it. And then all of a sudden, I realized that how the hell am I the selfish one if you're the one asking me to abandon my things to be able to attend to your needs? This is insane.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

This is insane. It is, and Grace, the what we talk about a lot is the trigger

Guilt Tripping And Emotional Molestation

SPEAKER_01 29:10

needs a place to land. Okay. And so if we're very wounded, let's say we were told we were selfish as children, let's say maybe we were never told, but we had to be very responsive to one of the parents, right? That's so so it's it's in us to respond to people's wounds, needs, desires, etc. Okay, so if the person said, let's say you're just kind, right? The worst thing you could say to an empath or a sensitive or a child is you're selfish, right? So the trigger will land and all the activation happens. Like, oh my gosh, I must be so selfish, I must be self-centered if I have needs, if I have preferences, right? If we start to heal, and one of the things that I like to say, and I think I put it in the book, is is to start realizing that that little selfish becomes capital self. S E L F. And the answer is yes. I am looking out for my self. Right? So it's it's almost like you actually invert the trigger. Like, yes, I will go on my errands, I will go to the gym, I will meet my friend today, because that's good for my capital self. Yes, so there is this this maturing, healing, growing into the S E L F, the capital self. And and and then the trigger won't fall as much.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yes, yeah, exactly. Uh yeah, understanding this, I I like this explanation with the self-capital S and showing that it's important your your needs, and it matters self. Um I wanted to share something as well that came to mind. Yeah, yes, how to differentiate between being selfish and just taking care of your and and self-care, basically. This is something that a lot of people confuse. And I I like to differentiate it in my head when I'm navigating life and making sure that I'm taking care of my needs while also nourishing my friendships and my relationships, for example. It's good to check in with yourself and see whether you're taking care of your needs while also making space to attend to other people's needs without abandoning yours or imposing them to abandon theirs to serve you. I think when there is this kind of respect of other people's space needs and emotions and boundaries, we can start to understand whether this is self-care or whether we are being selfish. Is that clear, or you want me to elaborate?

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah, yeah. Can you elaborate a little bit more? Because some of these, and we just talked about it right before starting the podcast, that sometimes the self-care part of the book feels a little more abstract and complex because people don't know how to change the language, even that that might fit, that might actually deposit inside with a better realization or understanding. So, can you give an example, Grace, of of maybe even knowing like, am I being selfish or am I self-caring?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yes, exactly. So I can bring up an example in from my personal life. I'm a very active person, I'm always doing events, I have a lot going on, and my friends support me a lot. They come to my events as much as they can. But then I make sure that when they have something, I make sure that I'm there for them as well. I'm supporting them. And even I remember a time, for example, where it was really raining, there was real bad weather, the government sent a notification that it can be dangerous to go out. But I could see that it was not life-threatening. And my friend told me that hey, if it because of what's happening, if you don't want to come, it's fine. But I felt like I would be selfish if I just felt like staying at home just because I didn't feel like going, because it's it's windy, for example. So then I felt that that would be selfish and not self-care. But if I had something important for me that night, I wouldn't abandon it to go to my friend's event because then I would be self-abandoning myself. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

It does. It does.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Um when when I was in a relationship with the narcissist and other narcissists in my life, if I had things that I needed to do, they wouldn't care and they would expect me to abandon everything. And go. So I'm not saying you don't make effort for other people and support them, but not to the extent of abandoning yourself completely and your things to serve others. There's a fine line there.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

It is, and and we're talking about, I mean, embedded in this conversation is boundaries, right? Like, and and Grace, really, like, I'm not sure this is a full connection, but I'm really thinking about the origin of these behaviors because what what you described there was reciprocity. And that in more regulated homes, even your home with your partner or with your parent, there is a lot of reciprocity and less wounding about self-care. That that's what I was when you were talking, it was like because the origin is um, so my son, an example, my son is introverted and he deals with clients all day long. And sometimes he would text because we learned to do that. I'm not gonna be talkative when I get home. So I just need to go into my room, right? For example, like so that wasn't selfish because it was, hey, is it okay? Like, I'm just I'm gonna, I need some downtime, I need some quality time or or alone time. And I always say that quality time or alone time is just as important, all of those are self-care things as quality time relationally. And after he would spend maybe an hour or two in his room, he'd come out, sit, talk. But I'm thinking about the atmosphere that creates that even with a spouse. Because another way that that might show up is that the narcissist or the spouse or the person who is not regulated might feel abandoned and guilt trip you with you're abandoning me if you need self-care.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Absolutely. Yes, yeah, what's a perfect example. Yeah. And because there's the sense of safety between you and a healthy dynamic, he can feel safe to express his needs. He knows that you're not going to be triggered, and then when he has unwinded and had his time, then he will come to you naturally and he will want to spend time with you. But if you had to force it and guilt trip him, it's just gonna create even more drama and it's so unhealthy and toxic.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

And I guess for the audience to know, and and and Greece and I are gonna uh we have future plans about actually working through these types of behaviors, right? And these and actually do like talk about just some exercises, but we'll give you a few spoiler alerts right now, is healthy conversation and dialogue that don't include these four behaviors. For example, the fact that he said ahead of time, prefacing what you're about to do, why you need to do it. Let's say if you said to your friends, girls, I'm so exhausted tonight. I like desperately want to be there, but I just know I'm not gonna be myself, right? I say that sometime to

Boundaries Self Care And Capital SELF

SPEAKER_01 38:30

my clients, like I'm not, I'm not feeling present. It's very unusual when I say that, but if I can tell them I'm not feeling present, so let's reschedule and they'll experience me fully present once I've taken care of myself. And that's the environment of reciprocity in a healthy environment.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Yes, yes, exactly. Rather than abandoning what and we're all human, we all have these different needs. It's just important for the other person to understand, and it builds even more trust between you. I will bring up an example, and it might trigger some people. This is a bit of an uncomfortable topic, but I'm sure that it happens a lot, even when it comes to sexual intimacy. I remember that there were times where we would be arguing for hours, and then he would decide that he would like to engage in sexual intimacy, and I would say, No, I need some time because we've had been arguing for hours. Just give me some time, let's watch a movie or something. I I explained this in the book as well, and then we can reconnect because his ego feels felt threatened because there's a rejection of him, he would engage in abusive behavior, threaten me that if I do not do as he says, he will I I cannot blame him for going with another woman, and uh I would have to surrender and force myself in sexual intimacy, and um what what can we call that? Consensual rape? Yeah, I'm sure it happens a lot with with couples because you feel threatened, and this is a perfect example of the four-behavioral cycle of a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Yes, the abandonment wound that he threatened with, the I'll be with someone else, or even a silent withdrawal where you know they're gonna go do something else, and they they do drop hints that they're gonna get online, that they're gonna look for someone else if you're not engaged. And let's let's talk about that little part there after three hours of an argument where you're depleted and you you're not feeling connected. So, one option is that that's their attempt, extremely unconsciously, to connect again. But it is so deep in the unconscious, right? Is to have sex is to connect again. Not very likely with a classic narcissist. What's more likely is that that's again a domination.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yes, I I was gonna say, in fact, that it didn't feel like an attempt to to reconnect emotionally, it felt more like a point of dominance, yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

I have the last word, and the last word is sexual. Let's have sex, and you have to say yes, correct. So it's it's just uh it's uh a more lengthy of the four stages. Um let's let's give an example. I I actually really appreciate, let me back it up, that you bring in sex because sex is always a part of this whole thing. And sex can involve maybe if you tend to be monogamous, the invitation to bring other people in. Now, this has nothing to do with consensual polyamory or or couples who decide together that they're going to be swingers, for example, or whatever. So let's let's put that aside where there's been a lot of mature discussion. Although that's not easy either. As a psychotherapist, I will tell you that there's all sorts of issues that do come up when it's when there's polyamory and feelings and uh deciding to bring third parties into the the dyad. But sexually they will say, Listen, these are my fantasies, you're my number one, and unless you do this, I'll have to go find this somewhere else. So there is coercion, and if in your case, Grace, like if you're a young person beginning a relationship with the narcissist, and what I mean by in your case was that you were very young when you started with this person, there's invitations to keep pushing your sexual boundaries with an active threat of secrecy, uh abandonment, because it's not just telling you they're gonna go somewhere else. There's this heavy secrecy in the home, in the house, that is also threatening. So I'm glad you brought up the sexuality piece here.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Yes, and uh maybe a lot of people feel uncomfortable talking about these things, but abuse thrives in silence, and as you mentioned, secrecy, and I was always Advised to not speak openly about these things for obvious reasons, and therefore I feel like there's it's even more important to talk about these things because it would have helped me when I was going through this to hear other people talking about it and understand oh, this is actually not a good thing to allow it to happen. This is not okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

We must. We must. And you and I will insist on talking about this. The Epstein files were alive and well because there was secrecy and silence around all sorts of sexual behavior. Um we must.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

And I'm so glad that you mentioned this because I feel like this is a heavy topic, and I don't know if you encountered this as well, but I feel like a lot of people get triggered or feel uncomfortable when we talk about these topics. I think that people sometimes like to live in their own bubble and turn their face away from the ugly things in life. And I think that it's important to be realistic and be able to hold space and listen and understand what's happening in the world and not have it, you know, this kind of like toxic posity. I don't want to listen to these ugly things. It's not pleasant. I mean, we can approach them with a bit of humor to make you know things think happy things feel lighter. But shall we then ignore the darkness that's happening in the collective or in our relationships and pretend that we're happy and you know, as they say, ignorance is bliss. I I wouldn't, I can't imagine living my life that way.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

It's almost like there's there's um a few approaches. One is talking about toxic positivity or bypassing this. The other, and because I'm a clinician, is like in a trauma-informed way. Which is to say, this will be triggering if you have been sexually abused, sexually harassed, sexually assaulted. This will also be triggering if you have an open, sensitive, kind heart, because it's very

Sexual Coercion Secrecy And Consent

SPEAKER_01 46:45

hard, even when you haven't been abused, to even imagine some of the things that are done to uh young women, young men, children. It's so horrific, right? Part of it is that we want to dissociate because the horror is so intense. Um, you can't believe it. You can't, there's no like model, or there's a model of your childhood, of your own personal trauma. So, so the idea is to say, listen, y'all, we have to understand that there is trauma that gets activated, or there is uh empathy and very profound disturbing empathy that gets activated. And we have to talk about it. And folks, just just like so we don't want to invade any boundaries, can decide as long as we trigger warning it and be very trauma-informed. You can decide whether how you want to take in the information slowly, gently, uh not take it in at all. But it doesn't mean that we don't talk about it. Because as you said, secrecy really uh holds these types of behaviors in homes, in schools, in churches, in social gatherings, in couples. Um you know what when it's consensual, disgust, normal human behavior, there's no there's no need for secrecy.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Um yes, the fact that there you you have to keep it a secret and there's this kind of like shame around it, it means that something is not right, yeah, what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

And I think go ahead, go ahead. No, no, go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say, I think the same sort of approach goes when the narcissist, if we come back to the four steps, the four stages. If the narcissist says, and this is in your more healed version, same correlate, like you're too sensitive, or look at you going again, and this is why I can't live with you. They deflect, project. I'm just such a terrible mom. The way to handle that is in the same way. You're not a terrible mom, but I still need to say this to you. Whether you can take it in or not. Um yes, I am sensitive, is another way to do it. I actually am. That is hurtful, and whether you can take this in or not, I need to say it. Right? These are other ways of responding to those types of yes, you might leave me for this. Yes, I still need to say what I need to say about this.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yes, yes, and staying true to yourself and whatever you you are feeling. Yes, and um to yes, as we come to to the end of our conversation today, I can't believe like fl time flew by so quickly. Yeah, we can do it, yes, to encourage the listeners that when they feel triggered or uncomfortable or scared with the situations to find a way to nourish themselves and cultivate a safe space within them. Because I remember the first time that I was asked by my therapist to locate a safe space inside of me. This was something new, and I was like, what are you talking about? And this was yes, when you find it, it's something that you cultivate, it's not something that is just going to appear, but then it feels like it's the holy ground, and whatever happens, you return to that, and then it's okay, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Oh gosh, Grace. I just sometimes when you say some things, and I I think this is what we're going to provide in the future, it's a spoiler alert, is for example, teaching of the internal holy ground. I love that. Yes, that's something and Grace, in the closing, I'd like to say to you, and I'd really like the audience to hear this. Part of why I took on this project with Grace of this book was not only because it was so incredibly well written and well researched, like it was just such a solid manuscript, but because Grace was so willing and courageous to be as raw as you were. So I want to invite you that as we're discussing to keep that for you to say consensual rape, for example, because even as you were describing it, I was thinking of it. I was like, well, that's rape. You were coerced into having sex when you had said no very clearly, and why. So I just want to keep, I want this space to be a place where you remain true to the book because I think that is truly more the opening. We could talk about this intellectually and from a theoretical perspective, and we can give steps all we want. But unless people can really connect to live examples and to see someone um like you present yourself with such truth, uh it's just quite powerful. That's the true impact for me about the book.

Safe Inner Ground And Closing CTA

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Thank you, Claudia. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, I feel like I'm wrapped up in a warm blanket right now.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Very good. Very good.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yes, I I hope that the way that we are going through these conversations to help the audience feel like they have a safe space where they can see the ugliness that they went through. Because sometimes it can be painful to look at these things. But I hope to inspire them that you can process these things and come to a place in your life where you can speak openly about them and feel okay and not in pain and not triggered because you have processed them, move past them, and that it's okay. We don't need to keep them exiled in our shadow and uh pretend that they didn't happen. Just process, release, let go, and then then you will be okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

That's what they will show up. The shadow stalks us, lurks, ambushes us. Just that's what I always say is don't bypass it because they this will show up. And the whole book is about find your light again. And and so these tunnels are really hard to navigate, but we are promising a light at the end of this tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yes, and I would love to start doing this. Let's start doing this together, Claudia, for our audience. Yes, to help them find their light again and help them work through it. Makes sense.

unknown 54:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Beautiful. Thank you, Claudia, so much. Always so fun speaking with you. Yes, so thank you so much. Um, Claudia, I don't know if you have a closing line.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Well, what I'd like to say to folks is you will find this conversation on my channel, but you will, but we we you will find it on our our personal individual channel that is for exactly this book, which is Healing from Narcissistic Abuse. So wherever you're watching it, know that it's on both. But Grace and I go into way more depth on our healing from narcissistic abuse channel. And that's when you're going to find the programs that we're going to put up there. So I just I just want the the audience to know where to find us. But my channel has all sorts of other things, but this channel, healing from narcissistic abuse, is going to go much more in depth. And you'll see where there's lots of goodies coming. So like, share, comment, uh, and really be engaged with us. We work really well with your questions of what's out there.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Yes. Yes, beautiful, Claudia. Thank you so much, yes, for inviting our audience to engage. And uh, I'll see you on the next one.