We Did 6 Months of Therapy—Why Isn’t He Breaking the Pattern? | Marriage Q&A | Ep440

Cass Morrow, Author of Disrupting Divorce: The NEW Man. Saving Struggling, Sexless, and Toxic Marriages.

Kathryn Morrow, Author of Behind The White Picket Fence.

How To Break Patterns!

Six months of therapy. Trigger lists. Boundaries. The same conversations on repeat… and the pattern is still there.

Kerry called in about her husband Alex: not a physical affair, but emotional affairs and fantasy at work—the “friendly guy” pattern that keeps turning into connection, validation, and a double life.
Cass’s answer: breaking patterns isn’t willpower. It’s identity.

If a man is “finding himself in another woman’s eyes,” it’s because he doesn’t know who he is—so he keeps outsourcing self-worth to external validation.

What we cover

• Why patterns don’t break through willpower or trigger management
• “He’s finding himself in another woman’s eyes” (what that actually means)
• Why therapy can feel repetitive when identity work is missing
• Why labels can trap you (“stop defining yourself by the wound”)
• The “fill your cup” shift: build something better and the pattern starves
• The double-life dynamic at work (identity collapse + validation seeking)
• What a wife can do: gratitude for the right moments, support without enabling
• Why the Morrow app/community helps this specific work

🔗 Explore more resources and our story: https://www.morrowmarriage.com/

Join Cass Morrow and Kathryn Morrow, the resilient couple behind Morrow Marriage. Together, we share our unscripted, raw, and against-the-grain journey of saving our marriage from the depths of Hell. We battle narcissism, emotional abuse, reactive abuse, and physical and sexual assault, offering lessons, actionable steps, and real-life examples to inspire couples worldwide.

Our journey is a testament to overcoming adversity, with challenges including Cass’ restraining order, seven separations, and two divorce lawyers. If we can survive and thrive in toxic, abusive, and sexless marriages, what’s your excuse?

Both books are searchable on Amazon and often purchased together:

Disrupting Divorce: The NEW Man by Cass Morrow: https://a.co/d/31vm4bV 

Behind The White Picket Fence by Kathryn Morrow: https://a.co/d/f0diMvp

Discover our story, challenge societal norms, and help disrupt the 78% divorce rate. Subscribe, comment, and share if you find value as we strive to save marriages.

What to Watch Next:

Explore our journey through our podcast playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzgMDD_noj4rUVhb9v9alyZe5ws_Su0I4

Access courses, training, tools, and books at https://www.morrowmarriage.com/

Connect on Social Media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cassfostermorrow
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cassfostermorrow
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cassfostermorrow

Learn More About Kathryn:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KMorrowMarriage

Help us disrupt divorce.

— Cass

#HowToBreakPatterns #EmotionalAffair #InfidelityRecovery #MarriageHelp #MarriageAdvice #RelationshipAdvice #SelfWorth #IdentityWork #BetrayalRecovery #TrustIssues #Therapy #MarriageCoaching #CassMorrow #KathrynMorrow #MorrowMarriage

MorrowMarriage.com | Disrupting Divorce With The “New” Marriage

Cass and Kathryn came back from the depths of hell to save their marriage and keep their family together.  Battling narcissism, abuse, reactive abuse, emotional, physical and sexual assault. Listen as they share their lessons, actionable steps and real life examples from even the worst of their story. 

Unscripted, real, raw and against the grain from society’s example of marriage - currently leading to the demise of nearly 78% of all marriages today.

Inspiring couples around the world...

If they can save their marriage from toxicity, abuse and a sexless marriage - not only survive it all... but THRIVE... what’s your excuse?

Join Cass & Kathryn as they flip divorce statistics and fulfill their purpose in life.

Have your own questions or topics you would like us to cover? 

Let us know here: https://forms.gle/7R8GBAdmQRkuZ3NFA

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, I don't have your name, but you are looking about uh learning about how to break patterns. Is that correct? And you're from San Antonio, boom, with us. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Yes, this is scary. Um I'm I like I figured I'd call I know my husband was the first one that was calling about infidelity. I think really what he wanted to ask was we've already gone through the therapy and all of that, but personally, like when is it that you're able to start breaking patterns and having those internal boundaries? Because even when you know the person feels that they're ready, there's just I don't know the trickle truth or something else happens and it sets you know, it just puts you back on reset. I think that's what his question was. He just wanted to go into depth with like a little bit of his background.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

That's totally different. Thank you for calling in. See, this is why we need to call it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Um the person, he's like, Are you still listening? I was like, Yes. He's like, Oh, okay. Well, I'm just gonna listen and not ask. I was like, I let me try to call and see if they can talk to us.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I think that's great. I love this. This is not the same affair question we get every time. How do you break your pattern? So you you have to understand, again, it goes back to the self-worth. What was your name, by the way?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Alexa and him Alex.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

And Alex, Carrie and Alex. So, um, Alex, you have to want to know that you're you're using this as a mask, right? So you're hiding. So whatever the form of betrayal is, and it doesn't matter if it's porn, and I don't know if you know this about us, but we think betrayal is so much bigger than actual physical affairs. But if it's porn, Instagram DMs, if it's talking to women, um, you know, it however you do it, even if it is the full physical affair, breaking a pattern requires diving into who you are and why you need that. So what is happening is typically fine, this is my line, but you're using another woman, you're finding yourself in another woman's eyes. And you would do this with your wife too. If you think about any time you wanted to have sex and she didn't, and you took a personal, got shut down, got frustrated, got angry, right? So then you have to understand this is all about your self-worth. I'm really focusing on this these days, okay? And once you start to identify that, now you can break the pattern. So it starts with little things. Like let's say you use porn and you masturbate, like you can easily do a seven-day challenge. That's easy, everyone can do it, and then do another seven days, and do another seven days, right? Because that's the gateway, right? When you need to release, you need to survive. Your self-worth is defined by I'm a man, I need that. Trust me, I love sex, I get it, but it doesn't rule me anything, and that's what you need to start understanding. But then you need to start looking at what other things you're doing. So do you slip away and ditch from your responsibilities? Right? Do you use that time to escape? Then then you're escaping somewhere else, right? So is Alex with you right now, Carrie?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

He's probably listening in. He's at work, he took a break just to tune in. I got you. But um, it's been six months of therapies that w we've already gone through, but like for for me, I've never heard the addiction that like his addiction is he's just addicted to the fantasy of an affair. You know, he never really acted on it. It was more emotional than anything, but that's his biggest um problem, you know, that he he doesn't invite those stuff in but stage just become. And uh even though it's not mutual with other people, like to him it becomes bigger than what in reality what it is, and it affects the marriage.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Of course it does, yeah. But I think the first thing he has to do is peel the label, right? So he's this is what it I'm interested, I'm attracted to. You know, I spoke to one man, this is way worse, okay. Um, but I don't think we get to decide what's worse, actually. So I probably shouldn't say that. But he he spoke to me and he was he needed help because he didn't want to have fantasies about sleeping with animals anymore. Okay. And um the whole point of it was uh again, tying back to so if you go to your therapy and you're d diving into what happened in his childhood, that's what he was doing for years too, and what led to this. In reality, it's still tied to a fictional side of things, which is not reality, which is because he doesn't know who he is. Okay. So if you can think about Alex having this rush, right? There are so many different things. At least in the beginning, you might not be able to just shut the switch off. So at least in the beginning, you can have fun with it, right? Uh, I I don't we're not interested in this, but an idea, for example, that comes to mind is you guys might like to roll, right? The reason we're not into it is because we don't support those thoughts, but it might be a good bridge if you have boundaries and principles harm reducing harm reduction. Yeah, harm reduction, temporary with boundaries and rules, knowing this is like we're moving away from this, right? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the things the therapist did was to like write down what are what are the boundaries, what are the triggers, like what, but like even up until this point, I mean, it just it's now starting to become where he feels like it's micromanaging. So we can just lost hope when it came to therapy because it's just it it feels just so repetitive. Like, okay, well, it's step one, step two, step three. And that's why we started looking. Let's look at coaches.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, yeah, because Gary, what we do is we'd be totally different. Like, if he was in my program, what I'd be telling him to do is find things that actually fill his cup. Like those fantasies don't fill your cup. Doing things against like you, this is what you specifically said, he doesn't want to invite those thoughts in. All right, that's the devil. Okay, so he has to learn who he is and learn what fills his cup in other ways. There's no person that needs sex to survive, that's just what they think. And so whether these fantasies are coming in this way or that way or whatever, doesn't matter. Once he starts to do things, I call it building and creating. When he starts to learn how to give and he starts to truly know what it feels like to love and give without expectation, I think everybody needs to do this, or else they can't do well in the relationship. But that's why they're selfish. But when you start to know who you are and identify, some people be like, Oh, yeah, dude, I love a workout. Like, cool, you need to do that, but like who are you? Like, what does it mean when you give? And again, when you start to really fill your cup, you find that a lot of these things straight away. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Absolutely. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

The biggest thing is, especially with therapy, you can find yourself to, like you said, add it. There's a reason why people are still drunk when they go to AA meetings for so long. We're defining ourselves like English is the stupidest language, it's like the only language in the world that likes to define you by everything. I am insecure, so I drink to cope. Like we start this whole process with our feelings, then we escape into it with whatever we need to do. That's so we would want to stop saying that. I'm not an addict. I breathe life into what you want, and you can help him with that, right? You can give him gratitude for the way he interacts with you versus because you can tell the difference when he's doing that versus when he's with you, correct?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yes, yes, I can.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, so give him gratitude for it. Don't be afraid of the elephant in the room. The hard conversation that might happen because he's afraid of being caught. No, no, baby, I'm still with you. Love that you're with me right now.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

What you just said right there, that's also the thing that the therapist had said was you know, you need to stop feeling that like this change needs to happen because you're afraid of losing something or being caught. Like be afraid that don't be afraid. Period. Don't be afraid that you're gonna lose anything. Be more uh stricter with your boundaries. And that's where he's like, I I he just he's like, I don't understand that because I I have my boundaries. I try I go to work because it always happens at work. He's like, I go to work to work, but somehow along the lines, because I'm a friendly guy, those connections happen, and that's where it starts. It it starts with the fifth pump or it starts with a minor conversation, and there I am caught into it again. He's like, and it does feel like an addiction to at this point.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Are you are you talking about like so he was talking to another woman at work because he's a friendly guy, and then all of a sudden, XYZ happens?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, it and it's only at work, you know. It it it it's it's just somewhere where he's not monitored or living that second life as a single person when he's at work and then coming home and being the best husband, because he was, you know, he is he's just living a double life when he's out of the house.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Did you catch my when we started this show today? When we talked about the nicer to everyone else than you are to your wife, did you catch that?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yes, yes, I do.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Okay, so this is the exact same thing, exact same thing. It goes back to him not knowing who he is, so he doesn't know how to shut it off. So Catherine would have said, Well, you know what to do at home, so you wouldn't know what to do, so you should know what to do at work. He doesn't know who he is, so he's finding value somewhere else, right? Because it's not that he doesn't know, it's that he just literally gets sucked in because it feels nice. It just feels nice to feel loved, and which is crazy because he gets that from you. That's what you would think, right? Well, I love him, I'm here supporting him, I'm on the call with him, I love him. And I got no impression that you don't, right? I think the impression you built him with Jane. Sounds like you're very supportive, but now it's the part in his journey where he has to want to. So when Catherine loved me like you're loving him, now he has to want to take next steps. And he could talk about it in therapy every week and he can wait years, where they'll never actually talk about identity and real true work, or he can get a coach and can figure it out. You have to start asking real questions. It'll you have to tell him it'll feel like he's drowning when he's doing it. Because you're gonna attack so many character flaws, and this is all based on not feeling good enough. In essence, he's worthless. That's that's why he's sucked in so easily from the positive endorphins from oh, she's laughing with me. It was just an innocent fist bump, but this felt good. See what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

I would suggest, you're you're welcome. I would suggest um you have you guys found our app?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

No, not yet. We're we're just kind of new to this. I think we got invited through Messenger to join in the live.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Okay, gotcha. So um what I would do is um go on our app and start, you know, get he being the men's side, you being the women's side, you can learn how to support them more, which it sounds like you're doing great, but I think you could always learn from somebody like Catherine and and the people that she's been teaching. Um, and then he'd go in there and he'd learn from people who are already discovering and already have discovered who they are. And then he starts to fill his cup in a different way, and he starts to the the app is an easy, safe place for him to do this because there's no one that can judge you. You're in a community that's safe, it's not like social media where I get comments all the time or DMs all the time. I couldn't comment everyone am I supposed to see this. He can just be himself and learn, and you just gotta let that happen right now. He's gotta break down this whole thing, but love him around in and around all that. Yeah, okay. The app is called Morrow, it's our last name. Has the two R's like on my logo, our logo. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, you're very welcome. Thanks for clarifying the infidelity side of things there. I love that. It was a great question. Catherine clarifies for me all the time, too. All right.