The Story Behind the Story: A Conversation with Shirley Novack (Sips & Scripts)

The fastest way to kill a dream is to assume you missed your chance. Javier sits down with Shirley Novak, an interior designer turned published author who didn’t write her first book until she was 75 and still managed to land readers, reviews, and real momentum. Her origin story starts with a fourth-grade teacher who told her she’d be a writer someday, then detours through decades of work and life until the pandemic finally opens the door. What comes out is not a “cute” late start. It’s a hard-edged, unforgettable story rooted in her father’s immigrant past and the kind of trauma families often keep buried.

We also get real about the publishing industry. Shirley breaks down what hybrid publishing looked like for her, why a traditional publishing deal can still go wrong, and how she ultimately found an independent publisher who communicates and moves quickly. If you’re an aspiring author trying to figure out how to publish a book, how to choose a publisher, or how to avoid shady contracts, this conversation gives you practical signals to watch for and resources worth bookmarking, including Angela Hoy, BookLocker, and Writers Weekly.

Then we go deeper into craft and creativity: Shirley explains synesthesia, her instinct-first writing process with no outline, and why she refuses to let AI write for her even as the tech explodes across media. We connect that to crime fiction, including her human trafficking thriller Stolen Lives, and why the best stories hook you on page one. If you’ve been waiting for permission to start, consider this your nudge. Subscribe, share this with a writer friend, and leave us a review with the bold thing you’re starting next.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Shirley Novak

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hey everyone, welcome to the Compass Chronicles podcast. My name is Javier, and I am so glad you're here with us today. We have a wonderful guest that's gonna come and have a great conversation with us. Um, she is an author, she is a just an incredible person, has a lot to say. I'm gonna let her introduce herself. Um, we love that she's on. Um, again, sorry that Mickey is not here with me today. She's traveling, so wherever you are, Mickey, safe travels. Again, I'm gonna introduce our my my guest, Shirley Novak. Hi, Shirley. Hey, how are you? Doing well, doing well. Nice to meet you. Same here, same here. Finally, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

So, what would you like to know?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

So, yeah, um, I see that you've done a lot of stuff and a lot of pretty uh interesting stuff. So, my first question to you is you spent 40 years in interior design before becoming a published author.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

What finally pushed you to sit down and write the very first book and what took so long?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

What took so well, like you said, I I have had a very dizio design firm for now 42 years. I've I've almost completely retired, but they keep pulling me back in. So, you know, but I'm only with people that I love and they don't aggravate me. So that's good. But um I always knew I had a book in me. I've always loved to write, and I've always had a talent for writing that I knew that I knew. My fourth grade teacher told me I would someday be a great writer. So, you know, it's like it stayed with me. And during the pandemic, I said I'm gonna write a book. I never thought it would ever get published, but my father had a very odd life. His beginning was very it was a story, it was a real story. And I sat down with no outline, no nothing, and I just it was like a hand was guiding me.

unknown 2:21

That's amazing.

The Real Story Behind Book One

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And I started writing. And he was born in 1904, Koretz, Poland. Oh wow. And his father was the evil, the evil that lives among us. He was a horrible person. And when my dad was 12 and his brother was nine, his mother died. She was a sweetheart. And his father sent my 12-year-old father and his nine-year-old brother to live in the care of a brothel. And told my father, I'm going to America. When I have enough money, I will send for you. It took three years. And while they were in the brothel, my father was raped by a Polish soldier. Urgo the story.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Oh my. You know, we we we look at at we start to read stories and we read fiction, and sometimes, as they say, truth is crazier than fiction. Like that story alone, the tr the trauma, the the the situations of living through something like that is unexplain it's unexplainable, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

He was 15, and um, I never knew about this until my dad died. And my dad died very young. Well, not that young actually, but he died in 1984.

unknown 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

And then I started hearing these stories from my cousins. And I never knew, I no one ever knew that he had gone through this. So he comes to America after three years, goes to Ellis Island, his father greets him at the train station after not seeing him for three years. Right. His father has remarried a woman as evil as he is. Oh my goodness. And she's very pregnant. And they tell my father, you're now gonna be 16 years old. You're on your own. He couldn't speak a word of English.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Right, right. That's that's and I I look at that perseverance for someone who doesn't speak the language or come in here just at 15. I mean, think about it. What were we doing at 15 years old? We really weren't thrown out.

Turning Family Trauma Into Fiction

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah, at that point he was 16, but still, what still, you know. So he threw him out on his own. That's and um he survived. Oh he learned to trade and he survived. So that's the beginning of the book. Okay, and then I had to make fiction, I had to create a story to carry it through. So the story is that he my father did become a very well-known furniture maker. And one day this guy comes into his furniture shop and says, I understand that you are the best, the best um artist in in the area, and I have a lot of furniture that I need to have looked at. And the voice went through my father like a knife, and he turns around. It's it's his rapist. Oh my goodness. No, wow. Well, not really, not really. That's I made this up. Oh, yeah. But you know what though? It's not unusual because at the beginning of the 20th century, people came to Boston, they came to New York, the immigrants, you know, they all settled in one area. So the only reason why my father knew it was his rapist was because he never saw his face, but he was missing a thumb. So that was the one discerning thing. So now the rest of the book is all about revenge, murder, mayhem, kidnapping, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

All that action stuff, yeah, yeah.

Hybrid Publishing Versus Traditional Delays

SPEAKER_01 6:03

All that action stuff. So I completed the book and I didn't want to self-publish. So I I researched hybrid publishing. And I made a million query letters, but I only sent the manuscript to one hybrid publisher. And they called me and said, Okay, we'll call you in a few weeks and let you know if we accept it. In three days, I signed a contract with them. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

That is amazing. That I mean, just reading the um the titles of the book, uh, they're eye-catching, like you know, when you wrote your second book, you know, Stolen Lives. That to me hit me because human trafficking is a is is such a big topic now, especially with everything that's but it wasn't it wasn't when I wrote the book.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Right, that's what it's so hard. I wrote the book three years ago, uh, two and a half years ago. Okay, and I was contacted by a traditional publisher who said, We'd like to sign you. So, I mean, uh a traditional publishing company. Yeah, why not? Even though I had never heard of him, but I signed with him, and the book sat on his shelf for eight months. Oh wow, and nothing was done. And when I called him on it and I said, I've had no contact with you in eight months. You have my book. I said, My hybrid publisher called me every week. And he said, Well, then why don't you just go back to your hybrid publisher?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Oh wow, wow, wow. So what did you you just went back to your hybrid?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I said goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I said goodbye. Yeah, good readings.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

And and you know what? I I dodged a bullet because someone else that had signed with him found me and said, You have no idea how evil this man is.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

He's he's he he is a misogynist and he's horrible and he stole money from me and yada yada yada. So I went to an independent publishing company, and within 12 weeks the book was on the shelves.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

That's amazing. Because when I hear that, I think that's because of of what I believe in stuff, there's always a reason for everything happening. And the reason why you didn't hit that publisher because that book was meant to be out at the time that it was out. Right. That's the way I see it. So um, you know, and then one thing I wanted to touch with you was when you mentioned um how evil this publisher was, people don't realize or know the backstop of publishing a book or the drama of getting a book. Everybody right now is you know KDPing it, so it's not really a difficult thing, but the process of getting your book actually published by a publisher. How was that like how did you pick your independent publisher or how did that work out like that?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Research. Okay, research and reviews and experience. And boy, did I hit it. She it's a book locker, is the name of the publishing company. And I just signed my next book, should be out this summer.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

The name which is the sequel to Stolen Lives.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Oh, wow. Okay, so it's a con uh continued.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah, I kind of left a cliffhanger at the end.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Oh, okay, okay. That's always good.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

But I will go nowhere else ever. This this company, the owner of the publishing company, is available to you 24-7.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

On top of everything, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So I I definitely would want her information to put up on the show notes, especially if anyone is, you know, uh, because uh the show, our show, as you know, it's Compass Chronicles, but it's split into three things. So it's split into Sips and Scribs, which is for authors and writers. And I have the Multiverse Guild is for us nerds and people that love pop culture and comic books, and then we have Compass Chronicles, which is our faith-based, more faith-based. And Sips and Scribs to me, it's kind of personal because I I have written, I've been a poet for a long time, and I've written some books, uh, and I know the process of trying to get your book published. I've not yet found one that's been uh well enough that I trust it with what I want, but it's that whole process, right? Of of looking into it, of figuring it out and seeing who's who, what do they do? They people don't realize that you just don't write a book and say, here, look at it. No, oh yeah, process to it.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Right. I mean, you can't just write a book and send it to Simon and Schuster, right? That easy, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

We'd all do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah, you know, you can't. But um, this woman from Book Locker, her name is Angela Hoy, and she puts out a weekly newsletter called Writers Weekly. It's free, yes, but for any budding authors, it is a Bible, it is unbelievable. I will have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

And just book online, there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, I'll give you all the information. It is, she's amazing. And um she's it's great. I mean, she's great. I have not had one month without a check.

Synesthesia And Writing By Instinct

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Wow, wow. I will definitely be reaching out for what I I want to do. Um, but I also was reading, and if I'm saying the word wrong, correct me, please. It says you're a synstete. I don't know if I'm saying I'm a synestheed. Okay, for listeners who've never heard that term, can you explain what it means and how it actually shapes the way you write?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Um, I never knew. I never knew there was a word. I never knew I was different than anybody else. And one day my son was watching television, he was about 15 years old at the time, and he called me, he said, Ma, Ma, you're talking about me. And it was they were talking about synesthesia, which is I I mean, I never knew I had it. When I see it's when two nerves or two neurons cross. So it's like when I see colors, I see numbers. Or when I see numbers, I see colors, I see shapes.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Sounds have shapes. The sounds are either sharp or they're soft. Um, six is blue, seven is yellow, five is red. I mean, that's how I see things. Oh wow. And I never knew that that was a thing. Right. And so um he has it, and that's why he said they're talking about me. Now, his neurons are different than mine, but it's like you see several things at one time, you you um associate, like I associate numbers with colors and shapes. Okay, and the irony is is that spatial relations is is you're great at spatial relations. So becoming an interior designer, it it did me a lot of good. Right. Okay, I can do this here, that I mean, one, two, six, it's done.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah, yeah. To have that is a it's a blessing because it's not a it's yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying for that field, it was. It is.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

But how did it affect you in writing?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

I don't know. I honestly don't know if it affected me in writing. Um, I am not, I did not have a typical experience in writing. I didn't have a typical experience in publishing.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

So expand on that a little bit, what you mean by the normal experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I sat down, I had no outline, I had no thought as to where I was going. I just sat down and a hand was like guiding me. And I wrote a book. And the the worst criticism that I had was I did a lot of book clubs and book signings. I've done 30, I think you're number 35 podcasts. And and and um I forget where I was going with this. I did not, I I I didn't suffer. I just wrote.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

That's coming.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

And like I would bring my every time I finished a chapter, I would show my husband, and he he, where is this coming from? And I don't know. It just isn't I think yeah, I can learn. And the worst the worst critique I got was I did a book club and the woman was a retired English teacher. Oh boy. I just have one criticism. You end certain sentences with prepositions. I said, yeah, because that's how we speak, that's how we talk.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And years ago, it was bad English to do that, it was poor English, but in today's world, it's not, it's acceptable. Right. A lot of the old rules don't don't come anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

They're not yeah, I I've noticed that a lot of the writing and a lot of the even how you speak now, it's way different than what it was when I was growing up or when I read books or stuff like that. You always, like you said, it there was a structure to it. And uh nowadays there really isn't a structure per se. It's what you're thinking and what you're saying. Uh of course you have to format it in a way where people will read it, but it's more there isn't a structure per se. Like uh, you have to write 32 words and then 10 sentences. It used to be that way where you have to have it structured in a way, but now with all the stuff that we have now available to write, it's just whatever's in your head, write it. And you know, that's what I tell people all the time. I said, take a pen, start jotting down whatever the heck comes in your brain. Whatever happens.

AI In Writing And Creative Honesty

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Absolutely right. And um, be honest in your writing. I mean, that's another thing. Don't you um one of the things Angela, the publisher, called me and she said, Do you intend to use AI in your writing? And I said, Absolutely never. Never, never, never, because that is cheating. It's not honest, and it's not coming from you. She was so happy to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Okay, so that's that that's gonna be my next question because I'm a huge proponent, a huge admirer of AI. I use AI a lot in my and the reason I say that, and I say it and I try to explain to people the reason I use I. I have a very big imagination, I have a huge artistic brain, I have a writer's brain. The the AI allows me to show what I can't do. I don't have the skill set to draw it, I don't have the skill set to that. So the AI assists me in coming that imagination to life. Um, so that's the way I see it. Now, in writing, that's a very, very great topic for a lot of people, really difficult topic. Because obviously, uh since AI has been out, book writing has been pretty much a disaster. Now everybody's just throwing books out for the heck of it. Right. Um, and that's where I see AI messing up the love of literature and and and reading. Uh, when people just start to put out mess and not look into it. Um, the way I use it is when I do uh write something, what I do is I try to put it in, I never ask it to rewrite it, I just ask it to review it and just let me know the tone. Because sometimes we're writing and we don't realize the tone we're writing in. So that's the way I see it. Um I use it anyway, and I do use it for a lot of videos and stuff like that, and when I make logos for people like that, because we do have a media company that uses that. Um, but I do respect writers that do not use AI at all.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Um well, I use it for research. I should say that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

But I will not let it write for me. I mean, I do have grammarly that I use for punctuation.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Sure, sure, of course. I mean, I see it for writers, it's it's a good thing to have that, right? All we had was word processing. Word would tell you what the words are now. You can kind of have a different eye to it because the AI obviously is reading it. But when you start taking it as extreme criticism or the the you're already messing up. If you take it, you know, you look at it and say, Oh, well, that's the way I should go, or I should do this, then you're letting the AI do the writing, right? You you really just want it to tell you, is it formatted right, or is it that's it? I don't want any ideas, I don't want any because they do try to be too helpful, yeah. You know, and they and they hallucinate and then they write stuff that just it's not true.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I mean, they'll write anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Right? It'll do anything. And um, it was funny, I was talking to someone yesterday about um there's a I think there's a court case now with AI and people um committing suicide based on the responses they get from Chat GPT or Gemini, and uh that's when it gets scary when people start to think of AI as a personal consultant, a psychiatrist, a health.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

And it's easy to do that. It is easy to like what was the name of that movie, her. Yeah, and he fell in love with his uh iPhone, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

And then you know, there's been so many movies with that, right? Right. Yeah, I mean, everybody says AI is the new uh, you know, um uh cyberdyne, you know, as uh Terminator, Cyberdyne, they take over everything with computers. Um but as a writer, I understand where you're coming from, where it it's it's not you, you're not the writer. If it doesn't come from you, right? Um, then you can't call yourself technically a writer. You're a copywriter.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Um I mean, I'm really proud of the fact that I haven't used it. And um one of my clients was just named one of the top people in AI in the country. She happens to be a professor of robotics at MIT.

unknown 20:15

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

And you know, and her husband is also involved in AI. And I asked him, should I be afraid? He said, You shouldn't be afraid if it's used correctly. It's just the bot. It's the you know, that's that's the that's the question. If it's used incorrectly or for bad stuff, then yeah, we have to be afraid. Yeah, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

No, I I hear you, and and and um, but it's also that fear like when radio first came out, uh, you know, or TV first came out. Radio. What was it when TV first came out? Yeah, there you go. It was so and everybody's saying, Oh, it's gonna kill radio, but it technically didn't, and then TV will kill uh movies, yeah. The movies or movies will kill the TV. No, everything progresses to a point where everything uses everything, so that's where I see AI. I see AI being used in movies and in audio and stuff like that, and some beautiful things are made. But as I said, when it comes to writing, I am very uh adamant or picky about using it to write anything at all. Um, so I understand where you're coming from with that. Um, and I and I hear a lot of people when they they argue about that and they get mad, or or they my thing is when the people say, Oh, it's not artistic or it's not your art. Well, technically I understand that, but if you know if anyone knows anything about AI, you have to write a prompt. There's a way you write for the AI to react the way you want it to, and that's where the skill set is. It's how you write a prompt. You just don't write a prompt, a dog with a tie. It's gonna give you any type of dog you want, but if you specifically tell it what you need, it will do what it can. So that's the way I use it. My imagination and my art and all that. Um, so a teacher told you at nine years old, and you said that you would become a great writer.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

At that time, did you take her seriously, or was it something that eh he well, here here's the funny thing on I was in the fourth grade, he gave us he gave Use an assignment to write a poem about spring. Oh wow. He was so impressed with my poem that he had me read it to the entire school. And then he took me aside afterwards and he said, Don't ever stop writing, because someday you're going to be a great writer. You just have it in you. His name was John Willett. Now, he we were his first class when he graduated college. I've tried to track his family down. I've tried to track him down. Unfortunately, there were no computers back then and the records. There are no records going back that far because I'm like ancient.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

And I am, I am old. But I'm I'm right there with you. So, you know, I know I know the feeling of uh I don't know how old you are, but oh I I'm I'm okay. I'm 58. I just turned 58 last month. My daughter's gonna be 56. There you go. Yeah, my mom uh my mom, my mom and dad just both turned 80. This I'm gonna be 80 this year. You uh and with all due respect, you look you don't look 80 at all. No, everyone tells.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

You know what it is?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I would think you were my age. I would think you were close to my age.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

That's I know. Every and everybody my mother was 105. Oh, God bless. And she had no wrinkles, no wrinkles, no double chin. So I but I you know it and I don't act it and I don't think it. Right. I never made it past 12. No, really, I like my mind.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, it's it's like me with my fandom with my comic books and my anime and manga. I'm still 10 years old watching this.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, I mean, I I I learned to read by reading stacks of comic books. My mother never told me took them away from me because she did understand that it was helping me read, and I became a great reader.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

That's awesome that she was able because not a lot of people or parents at that time would say reading a comic book was learning to them, it's wasting time. Um you know, unless you're not reading a book book.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

I read, I mean, I lived at the library, I loved to read, but a lot of that comes from the fact that I was allowed to read comic books.

Comics Nostalgia And Banned Books

SPEAKER_00 24:38

So, what was your favorite comic book to read? Archie. Archie, my wife's favorite. She loves Archie. Any comic I find, she I have to buy it.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

And I was uh the Mickey Mouse Club came out when I was a little girl. I remember the Mickey Mouse Club as a kid, yeah. I had every single Mickey Mouse Club magazine.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Annette Penicella, wasn't she part of that Mickey Mouse Club? Yes, yes, that was I was so much in love with her.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Yes, everyone everyone loves that. Um but when my when we moved, we threw them all out. Can you imagine what they would be worth today?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Oh my as a as a collector, I am like so disappointed. Uh, but I know the feeling because growing up, my mom and dad, they were they were always good with sort of spoiling us, but they didn't really, we had to earn everything, but when we did, we got what we wanted. Um, so I was Star Wars. I collected the Star Wars toys and the and the Tonka trucks that they used to make back then that were metal, not the plastic. Um and she gave them all away to my cousins who were poor, and she says, Here, and I said, Mom, now I think about it. Back then I cried obviously, but now I'm like, You probably gave away my inheritance what they're worth now. You know, some of those toys are worth thousands and thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

But but who knew? I mean, I exactly I got rid of my cabbage patch dolls.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Oh my goodness, those are worth money and a half punch in the face for one. Oh, really? Yeah, I tried for my little I was getting it for my little sister for Christmas, and I don't know if people remember when Christmas used to be fun, not this craziness now, but people would, you know, Alexander's. I'm dating myself now. Alexander's had a store, and there they had to. I don't remember Alexander's. So I went to grab one because at that time they were the hottest thing in the world, and a lady literally tried to grab it and punched me in the face. And uh, my sister till this day says this she she still has the doll because she goes, I'm never gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

How about the woman who got life in prison?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah, yeah. But back then it was, you know, it was almost normal. Like you got into fights like that to get toys, people would wrestle, which is crazy. I wish they would wrestle like that for other things, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Um, I've never sworn so much in my life as I do right now.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

It's the way that uh this world is, it's just uh out of control in a way. Um, and we l we have to live in it, unfortunately. But I think I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

You're taking books out of libraries, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I mean, whoever who who I I that you know it's almost like feel back in the in the German in the 30s when the books were banned, and and I mean who's to judge what you want to read and who you want to read, and who's to take away history, right? Right, who's to change it? Because that's basically what you want to do is you want to take away one history to provide another history. Why can't both be on the same playing field? Or um, you know, books that I I've read as a kid that were part of my English class that I had to read are now you're not, you know, they're not in the library. Or they told me. And if it's black history, you should a black history gone. Yeah. I mean, growing up in school, we did get I went to Catholic school pretty much my whole life. So we were taught uh very different than public school, in a way, because we were taught more. Um, I think they they really dealt into the culture part. They did talk about black slavery, Hispanic uh slavery, and and stuff in the but nowadays they're not even they don't even touch that like it's a rudot subject. Like you can't even the minute you you mention it, you're already ostracized. Like, oh, you can't talk about that, you can't mention that. Whoever heard of such a thing. Whatever happened to civil discourse, whatever happened, a conversation like we're having right now. We may not agree on a lot of things, but we're able to have a conversation, get something from you, something from me, and whoever's listening can get something from them. And I think people really think that it's by yelling or getting loud or how much I can prove my point that gets that across. And I I I disagree with that. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Oh my god, are you kidding? I absolutely agree with that. I think number one, I I am the least judgmental person you will ever meet. If you're not doing anything to hurt me deliberately, you're great. I don't care. Um, my daughter, I should tell you that I'm Jewish. So right now, this is a tough time for me because anti-Semitism is so bad in this country. But I I brought up my children to be colorblind, you know, whatever your ethnicity is, it's fine. If you're a good person, that's the only thing that matters. And I'm my kids are grateful to me for doing that. Um, because they see a lot of bigotry and anti-Semitism and everything else, and they don't get it. They say, what, what, what, what do you know why? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't belong in this world.

Book Signings And Lifelong Friendships

SPEAKER_00 29:56

No, not at not at all. And it's um I I live in New York, right? Which is pretty much the center of Jewish life. I live, I grew up in Williamsburg, so I grew up with Hasidic Jews. Ah, so um well, they're another culture completely, but I but I was also a Christian, raised as a Christian, so we always respected the Jewish uh people because to us they are the chosen from God, and there's a different level that God deals with Jewish people than he deals with Gentiles, and I've always respected that. Um, and I have not I've seen, and it's funny, I've seen more um prejudice and bigotry here in New York City, which is one of the most open liberal cities in the world, I've gotten more pushback here than I did when I visit the Midwest or when I go down south. Uh, which is weird, right? You would think the opposite. You would think somewhere that's more conservative would be and I hate that people put conservatism and and and racial together because we're not. I'm a conservative, but I'm not racial. I I don't see color, I never have, never will. Uh, but I do see the issues that everyone has being a uh Hispanic man, having two two uh children that I have to grow in this world. Um, so I know how old are your children? Uh my daughter is uh she just will be 31. No, and my youngest uh turns 20, he just turned 27. Wow. So I had them uh I thought you were gonna say 10, 12. No, no, I I had them young. I had them when I was uh 23. Um me and my wife have been married uh thank god 34 years. And honey, if I'm wrong, don't kill me. But I I believe it's 34 years, but we know each other 40. Wow, so we've been together a long time. Um and uh she's uh she's a trooper. Um but anyway, enough about me. But uh, so when you go to these book signings, right? I've never been, I've never had one, and never uh one day maybe I will. How do you interact with people? Like, how does it do you ever get a pushback from them or or anything?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

I am such a people person. That's awesome. Um my favorite thing is to be thrown into a room full of strangers and find out about them and ask questions and learn about them. My husband, on the other hand, likes one-on-one. He he he hates that, and so we're very we're very different that way. But um, I I love people, they energize me. So when I go into a book signing, um, I know a lot of the people that are there. I mean, some people have shown up at my book signings that I haven't seen in 50 years. Oh wow, yeah. And it's like, oh my god, you're here, you know. It's wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, that's oh that's what good writing and and and words bring people together, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Words are words bring people together, yes. Words are I grew up in an area where um it was like I grew up in a part of Boston that was like all Jewish, all immigrants, okay. We were so poor, but we didn't know it because everyone was poor. Right. Okay, so we all had we worked, you know, after school, we'd work, but I am still friendly with the people I was friendly with in elementary school.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

That's that's a blessing that to you have to hang on to.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Now they live all over the country, but we get together over the summer. Wow, they come because it was a beach that we hung out on every weekend, and they come and we reunite at this beach, the same people at the same street on the beach. It's wild. That's awesome. But yeah, I mean, my best friend came to my fifth birthday party.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Oh wow. Now that's a friend, that's a best friend since five years old.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Wow. Since five years old, and um her children are the same ages as my children. Oh wow, and they think they're brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

That's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

It's it's great. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

That's see, I mean, that's how family is, right? We don't necessarily blood makes family.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

It's my connection.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah. Right. It's connection, it's how uh you deal with each other that uh makes family for me. Um so I I'm very um Adam, or not very I'm very careful when I say that, when I say family, because that's a very strong word, and people love to throw that around. Not everyone is there for your benefit that you call family, even family. But I I can understand when you have some sort of friendship like that that you hold on to and and it stays with you, it's gotta motivate you to even talk to other people and make them be to know that you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

If you know, we we watch cemetery plots together.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Oh wow, that's friends. That's great. I that's that's that's amazing. That's definitely gonna be part of the uh the show notes. I have to put that in. That's amazing. That's so funny. Um, that's a good friend. That's a friend for life, I guess. Till the end. You're you're it's better than than being married, right? It's for deaf beginning. She knows you longer than your husband.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

So you know me, you you know me, you know, yeah. You want me, you have to get my ear. But the funny thing is, is that her husband was a fraternity brother of a guy I was dating in college. And so I've known him since I was 16 years old. Oh wow. So she ended up marrying him. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, so um it it's it we're family, right? And you know, like this past week was Passover, and her daughter has it now. You know, we've passed these holidays on to the children. Right, of course. But her son-in-law saved my son's life. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Talk a little bit about that. That sounds interesting.

Medical Research And Learning To Teach

SPEAKER_01 36:16

That I I have a medical background because I was in research, surgical research. In fact, we were the first people that operated on the unborn. We were the pioneers.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Oh, wow. In Boston. That's amazing. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I was very lucky. Yeah, I uh I've had just to experience that.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

That has to be wow. Yeah, talk a little bit about that, living as a okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

I graduated. I uh my my father did not believe in educating women, girls. You're gonna get married and have children. So I worked my ass off, and I was able to pay for two years of college. And I became a medical assistant. I took a two-year program, became a registered medical assistant, and saw that there was an ad for this research team in Boston that was looking for a master's degree. I had an associate's degree, but I read everything I could about them. And I met them and I applied for the job, and they hired me. They said my enthusiasm was so overwhelming. I came. Plus, I came cheap. You know, I'm sure I came cheap.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

That's right. Yeah, you you uh you're not an expense, but and they get all your talent as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

So I um they sent me to the University of Rochester Medical School to take a crash course in hematology, and I became the group's hematologist.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

And then when federal funding got cut down, Nixon was in office, um, our experiments got cut back. And I would come in for the day, go to the movies, come back to my lab. Oh wow, and I'd have nothing to do for days, and then all of a sudden I had to be there 48 hours straight to run an experiment. So it was so a school opened up in Boston called the Bryman School, and they taught medical the medical assisting program.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I always wanted to be a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Oh, okay. Yeah, well, like you said, you're a people person, so that's definitely teachers have to be people persons, right? And have to have and have a lot of patience because to be a teacher, you need a lot of patience.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Well, my my students were between the ages of 18 and 50. You know, they were post-high school. Oh, okay. But still, they hired they hired me. They hired me. I was making double the salary, only working three hours a day. Wow. That's a that's that's that's not even a job, that's fun. It was fabulous, it was fabulous. And then when I started having children, they created an evening school program and asked me if I would teach that. Oh, and so I kept teaching. I kept teaching. I love I loved it. Wow, I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

That's so have you ever thought of uh doing like an online course or anything like that on writing or on teaching or anything like that? No, I do take a course though in creative writing. But I'm saying, would you ever think of doing a course? No, why I don't want to do the prep work for all the work. Okay, so all the work that needs to be that's great. At least you're honest. I understand the work. I know.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah, I don't want to do the preparations.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I hear you. We we do enough with the writing and everything else, so yeah, but um only because I I asked that because um I tend to do that a lot. So, you know, um you write. I mean, you you give quote you teach. Well, I I tend to a lot of people come to me for advice on certain things, and I tend to just give them my time, not realizing that my time is money technically. Um it's one of my uh my coach, he is uh amazing guy, Rory. He uh was the one who straight lined me in my podcast and everything else because as everyone knows, my mind is I'm that dog in that movie where squirrel and he moves, squirrel, he moves. That's me. That's me perfectly. I have to I have OCD, so I have to touch everything that I do. I I have OCD. I have to I have literally 11 screens. That's how big my desk is, my desktop. I have to literally have every screen to touch. If I don't, I get nervous or I think I didn't do anything. So what he did was streamlined me and said, focus on this and just take care of that. And uh so I've been just trying to do that. But how do you stay focused when you're writing? Like do you just do you put yourself in a separate room or do you music? How do you motivate yourself?

SPEAKER_01 40:53

I I sit down, I I shut off the music. I can't I I love music, I absolutely love music. I can't be in a silent place, but when I'm writing, I become part of the book. I'm in the book. Gotcha. And these characters become I become the characters, characters become me. In fact, one day I went downstairs and I was crying, and my husband said to me, Why are you crying? I said, Because so-and-so just died. And he said, Yeah, but you're the one who killed her.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Right, right. Right. But but that shows the passion you have for what you're writing.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

It's really I love the yeah, my characters are real to me. I mean, I become really part of them. So when I was writing Stolen Lives, which is about human trafficking, and I would bring him down a chapter, and he'd say, What goes on in your head?

Human Trafficking Fiction And Crime Obsession

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I'm demented. You know, I am dementid. I was gonna ask you that, uh, and and and you got me there. How did you think of writing a book about child trafficking?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Like what I clicked. I love crime. I've always, I mean, I think it came from one of my neighbors was killed by the Boston Strangler. Wow, yeah, talk about a connection, man. Wow, and I was intrigued. I mean, they wouldn't let you get go out in the streets at night without unless you had a companion. And I have always loved crime movies. I love like 2020, 48 hours, dateline. I'm addicted to dateline. You know, all these movies. I mean, have you seen The Pit? Not The Pit. Um, what's the name of it? It's about the prison that was called The Pit. The Pit is a medical show.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yeah, that's the medical show. Yeah, I I kind of have an idea which one you're talking about that they show the life inside of a uh No, it was it was a prison that held the worst criminals in the world.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

And there was an explosion, and I forget the name of it. I'm gonna have to remember. Um it's on every week, but it's really the disgusting crimes.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

They're awful. You know what? It's so funny because my son, uh, I have obviously YouTube, and my son shares the YouTube, and he goes, Dad, I see what you watch, and you watch so many crime stuff or murder, or um it's just to me, it's the mind of that person that intrigues me.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Absolutely. This is called the hunting party. There you go. It's called the hunting party, and their minds, where does that come? I mean, I'm a nice person, I would never hurt anybody. You know, I mean, I dropped my dog off this morning to have surgery and they called me and they said she's a little half a niece, and she needs to have a growth removed. They couldn't get her sedated. Oh wow, she was frantic, and they said we we can't get her to calm down, we can't even get the anesthesia into her. I have to go pick her up and try again in two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Oh baby. Oh, I have two cats of my own, those are my babies. Yeah, they're my they're my uh therapy sometimes, you know, when you're going through something they come right. You know, um, but you know, talking about the crime stuff, I am a huge fan. I mean, even in comic books, I read the mystery comics, I read the horror comics, yeah. The Twilight Zone. Yes, people don't realize how good those shows were, how good they were. The Twilight Zone, the uh, what was the other one that bit off of the Twilight Zone? It was uh Outer Limits. Oh, Outer Limits. People don't remember how horror used to be. Um, I don't know if you uh well, you're gonna remember this. Uh thriller with the hand coming out thriller. That was one of the and I was a kid, it was in the 70s, 60s, and 70s, and that scared the living crap out of me. And um, and it was horror and it was crime, but it wasn't gore per se. Like, I don't like gore. I don't want to watch no people butchered or opened no, no, no, like Dexter. Yeah, no, I can't watch that. I like the mental gymnastics between a policeman or whoever after the killer or the that's what intrigues me.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

The most frightening movie I have ever seen is The Shining. Really? The Shining? Why? Yeah, like why was that because it showed this person who's a writer, okay. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, family man who little by little goes crazy, and it's and he's in a haunted house, and it's oh my god, it Jack Nicholson just changed to me.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

That's his best role ever when he did that. Um and I remember I see The Shining, I went to the movies to see it, and uh back then they didn't care, there was no PG or G or whatever the heck it was, all that. You just went to the movies. Uh, and I remember um that scene with the twins will always freak me out. Well always freak me out. Always no matter what, it could be a picture of it, it could be a talk. I freak out.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

No, that freaked me out too. Yeah, it's suggestive. Yeah, it's just suggestive. It is not me that they did anything, they were just oh my god, I'm getting scared now.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Right, but isn't that the joy of horror? That's the joy of writing to get someone scared without even showing anything. I think that's amazing when you can do that, when you can read and be like terrified, and there really isn't a picture in front of you, it's your mind, it's your own imagination.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Um, Stolen Lives has gotten mostly five-star reviews. Awesome. The first four-star review I got was because she was terrified and couldn't sleep. I never thought of it being terrifying, but I said, Oh, okay, I'll take the course for sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Why not? You you you got it across. That's what you wanted. You wanted people to be afraid in the sense to think um and react. It's the reactions, and um, I think that um the rise of tech has taken away that from us because everything's so fast and so instant that people don't take the time to read a book, to ingest it, to really, you know, they want everything quick, they want a small, they want a recap, and then they move on.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

No, I think the best thing in the world is to sit down with a book that you can't put down.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Amen. Yeah, I agree with you so much. Uh, there's something about when a book catches you from the beginning, and you're like, I can't put this thing down.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Well, that's what um a publisher, my publisher told me. She said, um because my one of my books, I think it was the second book, yeah, Stolen Lives, because it was Angela. There was a crime in the book, and it was like a few chapters in. And she said to me, Don't put the crime in the few chapters in, put it on the first paragraph, first page. And ever since then, I understood that the first page is the most important page of that book because that's the one that's gonna draw you in. Right, right. People don't realize that, yeah. No, if I have to read 40 pages before I get into a book, I it'll never be read.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

I I can't read it. Me neither. Exactly. That that's the catch, right? It's the that sometimes even the back of the book, when you read the back of the book, and it if it hits correctly, you're like, all right, I'll take a chance in the book. But if you don't, especially nowadays where people want instant gratification and instant, if the first page doesn't catch someone, yeah, they're never gonna pick it up. Ever. No. Uh even on ebooks and and Kindle stuff. If if I look at it and be like, eh, you didn't catch me in the first chapter, I'm like, nah, I'm not gonna, it's not gonna work. But we also could be losing out because it could get better. I've had that situation where books have gotten better than when they started.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah, I mean, I've started books and I'm saying, oh my god, this is so droll, I can't get into it. And people have said to me, No, give it give it about 75 pages, and it'll take off. I I'll do it, and it does, but I don't want to waste 75 pages. That's that's the the thing.

Audiobooks And Reading That Hooks Fast

SPEAKER_00 49:29

We we don't want to waste our valuable time that we need to not enjoy something, right? So yeah, I I see that. And uh what do you think about audiobooks? I love audiobooks.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Oh, but my books are all in audio.

Reinventing Yourself And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Nice, and like I tell everyone, anything for my guests I will put in the show notes, I will put in uh uh on uh Facebook everything that you can uh reach out to Shirley and talk to her about. Um, just reach out and get her books and and learn how the process and um how to write and live through life and decide to make changes when you're older. And that's another thing I wanted to talk to you about. How does it feel to like me? I didn't start podcasting or writing, really writing till about five years ago after I got sick. Um that's when I started. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

So we hit that uh I was 75 when I started writing my first book.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

All right, so from that's what I want you to tell people that doesn't matter what age or what position you're in, that you can do it. Explain that to them. I want them to hear from someone who's done it.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Don't ever say never. The worst words in the English language are should have, could have, and would have. As long as I wake up in the morning and I can breathe, right? And I look in the mirror and I'm still alive. It's like I have something to say. I have, I, I have like I uh my next profession is gonna be pole dancing.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

I you know what? I believe you too. You'll be one of the best pole dancers I've ever seen. I will be the best pole dancer. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Best geriatric pole dancer.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

And you know what? That's a niche no one's touched yet. You may be making some money.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

I'm gonna I'm gonna make history. Yeah, I can't be an astronaut, but I can be a pole dancer.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

So don't yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Um where are you? Where are you? And and I didn't notice uh what state you're in. Massachusetts. You're right outside of my. Oh, okay. In Boston. And and I mean I grew up in New York. It's the Jewish community in New York. My brother lives in New York. Yeah, where in New York? He's on East 75th. Oh, he's in the Upper East Side. Okay, so he's near Wal Cornell, my old job. Um, that's a that's a nice area out there.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

That's uh Cornell Medical?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah, yeah. I used to work for Cornell Medical. I was a revenue analyst for 30 years. Oh, so I worked in the healthcare field for 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Well, thank God it's there, it's right around the corner from him.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

And he had a mini stroke a couple of weeks ago, and just went right over to Cornell and Yeah, they take care of my son works there now. Uh, he's there now, uh working at the ophthalmology department. Oh, okay. So yeah. That's that's when I tell people, you know, go go work at a hospital. If you can get in and do your job, it's like it's a great place to get experience and it could be a lifetime job.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

I mean, you know what's great about a hospital? The camaraderie. And that's what I loved about working in a hospital. The camaraderie between people. It's uh like I remember when I was in school, I spent my summers uh waitressing at a resort in the um in the White Mountains. It's like the cat skills of New England. Right, right. What a job. It was just like dirty dancing. It really was just like dirty dancing. It was amazing. But when holidays came around, I would have some of the I would ask the interns, you want to make some money? Want to make some money? Come. We can work at the cat, we can work in the mountains for the weekend. And they would come and they would make like$150 for the weekend. Now that was a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Yeah, I'm sorry, but$150 right now is still a lot of money for for me.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

You know, it's it's it'll buy a tank, it'll it it'll buy a gallon of gas.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

That's about it, yeah. You'll you'll get, yeah, and that's the cheap gas too. That's uh so yeah, when you mentioned uh the Jewish community in Boston, um I've never and even knew that. I mean, I knew there were Jewish people all around the world, but to have an actual community, you know, you don't mention it, you don't hear it because I guess nothing real crazy comes out of it because Irish and Italian mob, you'll hear the stories. But I think stories in that community that can probably take out half of the other stories.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Well, I have a lot of the Italian uh North End in my first book. My second, it's my yeah, my first book. Uh people from the it brings in the crime from the North End. And um, those are Italians, and South Boston is Irish, the Southeast, right? Yeah, and like places like Brookline, huge Jewish community, and also a large Hasidic community. So we don't but we're we don't affiliate with Hasidics.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Right, right, no, no, no. They're their own society. They're extremely extreme. Yeah, and uh it's funny whether you said they live in Brookline, and where do they mostly live? In Brooklyn, New York. That's the Brooklyn, Brooklyn, right? Right, it's one of the biggest Hasidic neighborhoods. They pretty much own half of Williamsburg, Brooklyn. The lower the lower east side back then, the lower east side was them not anymore. Uh it's changed a lot, it's become very gentrified, um, very expensive. Um, Alphabet City used to be where nobody wanted to go in Alphabet City. Now can't touch an apartment in Alphabet City. Um, the Jewish communities, they pretty much moved either upstate or they moved across to Brooklyn to the other side. Um, and I know how it is to be in that society because I'll be honest, I made a lot of money as a kid with them because obviously their Sabbath started Friday. They had to be home before six on Friday, and they couldn't touch anything during Saturday. So I would go and they would ask me, Can you turn on the lights for us? And they would give me five bucks. I would come home with 40-50 bucks. Oh, you're kidding. Turning on the light or moving boxes, or going to they would later be going to the synagogue to pick up stuff because they couldn't do it. I would make five bucks every time. My first job was with a Hasidic Jewish Hasidic uh uh store that only sold to Hasidic Jews. I only I did deliveries. That was my first first job.$12 a week, but that was a lot of money for a 10-year-old. I was rich, you know. You were rich, yeah, yeah. And and you and you get to learn a lot about the culture, um, certain things that you you're not supposed to say or do or oh, it's extreme though. It is extreme. But I was you know what? I respected them because they stuck with that. You know what I mean? Not everybody has that. I mean, if you're raised in it, that's all you know, but to continue that and not be taken from the world or moved away from that. Um, it's it's gotta say some hard stuff because I know I couldn't do it. I couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

I grew up orthodox.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

There you go. I did not.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

I have two older brothers. None of us. The first thing I mean, none of us have followed because my feeling is you you don't have to follow a pattern to be a good person. To me, respecting people, um, being a good person, never intentionally wanting to hurt anyone, and making the most of my life is being a good Jew. I don't need to go to temple or and I don't.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

I mean, I know the bells and whistles, right? You don't need a show of it, you know yourself. And yeah, once you know yourself and and know that God is real, there's a there's a higher power that directs us, and absolutely told that in the writing. I mean, to me, that's God directing you into writing what you needed to write at that moment. That's why I went smooth, you know.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

You know, all my kids were bar mitzvid because that's expected, but um, and they had to have the party.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

I've been to a few, they're fun, they're a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

They're a lot of fun now that you're very loud. I don't even want to go to them anymore, but yeah, and that's about it.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Right. And and but it's no matter, even if you don't follow, it's still part of you, no matter what, it's still part of when you go to the city. It's ingrained, it's ingrained, right? Um, and that's why I respect it. The to me, the Jewish community are so they respect their culture so much that I respect that. You know, they the their lifestyle and stuff like that obviously can go to the extreme or it can go to where nothing, but I I think extremism in any religion, any culture is it now.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

We see it right now, right? Yeah, we see it with everything. Christian nationalism, that's one of the biggest things right now, you know. My niece, my niece just converted to Christian nationalism.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

That's that's uh I mean I'm I'm uh I'm what would people call a liberal conservative, so which is a sort of a dichotomy, liberal conservative, but I have liberal thoughts, but I also have very deep conservative views that I won't deviate from. But I understand uh when you change from one thing to another, it's difficult, it's a hard decision. I respect it. Um to make a decision to obviously, as a Christian to follow God and that is is amazing, and we love that. But when it becomes a weapon, and when it becomes uh a hindrance to other people, and they don't see God the same way anymore, then that's where I see the danger. You know, that's why I do this podcast, that's why I do the shows that I do, the music I write. I always try to show my faith in it, but I don't overload people with it. I just want them to understand that there is bless you.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Not everybody, um sorry, yeah. No, I mean, like not everybody believes in God. I do. I mean, I do, I do, because there has to be something controlling me. Right, right. You know, yeah, of course. If I didn't believe in that, um, but I if I don't fault people for being atheists or agnostics.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

No, no, I I could be well, I grew up as a very deep Pentecostal. Once we left Catholicism, we became Pentecostal and very, you know, Bible screaming, ripping, and you know, church. Uh, you were in church for 12 hours and the guy preached for two, you know. I grew up in that, in that as a teenager. Of course, I fully rebelled once I learned that I can go out and do what other stuff. But I also saw the benefits of it because it did put a foundation for me. That's right. A moral foundation that I oh crossed a few times, but they were still there, right? Well, you're human, right? That's the danger. Like, people don't realize that you should have not everyone has a moral foundation because we can see the killers and and the psychos and stuff. But you know, I I see that as pure evil. I see that as something the devil will do to people to make them that that evil. That, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

Uh where are your parents from?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

My parents are from uh I'm first generation here in the US. Uh my mom and dad are from Puerto Rico. Um, but they've lived here longer than they were in Puerto Rico because they both uh my mom got married at 18, and my dad was 19, and that's when they moved here to New York. So uh I'm a born and bred New Yorker. My kids are born and bred, my wife is from the Bronx. Um, this is where I'll probably be buried. And um, it's in New York.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Oh, I have a plot you can have.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Well, actually, what people don't realize, I have a will that states I want to be um obviously cremated and I want to be thrown into Hudson. That's where my city is. It's my city. This I love New York City, despite of the craziness that it is right now. I love there's nothing better than New York City.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

It's it's it has a life of its own. Yeah, yeah. And you want to know something? That's how I feel about Boston. You see, everybody has to, yeah. Oh my god. I well, it it from the time I was born until now, it has changed it's not anything like what it was. I mean, we have so many arts here now, and museums, and show Broadway is here all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Yeah, I um I was in Boston, I say maybe well, it's before I got sick, so maybe seven years ago, my my sister and I decided to just drive to Boston to it's only four hours. Yeah, just to go get uh clam chowder and and um what else? Some other thing. So we grabbed my mom, grabbed my son, and we drove. And we went there, and I think this was my second time as an adult going to Boston, and I realized how much it's changed and how much culture is there now. That park that's there, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

And uh you didn't call me?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

You were here, and you didn't call me. Next time I definitely will because who else better than the person who's in town, right? Knows all the little secret spots absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

I know every inch, and I'm a great cook.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Next time I'm in Boston, I will definitely uh be reaching out for sure. Yeah, I would love to uh learn the ins and outs of you know, every town has their own stories, their own, you know, especially Boston. Boston has a big uh a lot of stories. It's one of our first that's where everybody went, right? You know, uh and New York, Boston, New York, Chicago. I call them all like sisters, they're all mixed. Um, but again, uh everyone, um, I will have all of Shirley's stuff in the show notes. I want to thank everyone, Shirley. You thank you so much for coming on. You have been amazing. Um before we go, can you tell people where they can find you or uh reach out to you and find your books?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Um, my books are actually Stolen Lives. Um, it just dropped down a little bit, but it's been in the top five percent of Amazon, the Kindle version for six months. Oh wow, that's awesome. Yeah, now it's like the top 10%, whatever. But I am thrilled. It's it's really yeah, even though it terrified someone, but it's okay. But it did its job, right? That's what that's what you wanted to do. I got two stars because she's she didn't like the editing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

You can't please everyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

No, and I'm saying, you know, that's what makes the world go around. Right, right, right. You know, what'd you think of the story?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Right, right. Not that it was edited, right? Really? That's what you read the book for?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

I mean, come on, but uh I'm on Instagram, uh-huh, um on Facebook, I am on oh god, Podmatch, Podmatch, of course, that's how I meant you, and um Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Booklocker.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

So any social media platform or any book.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

Yeah, if you just email, if you just Google my name, but Google it surely be Novak because there are a lot of make sure to put that in the show notes so that people can find you and and and share those uh stories and email me. You can email me. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Uh again, people please listen. There's never too late to do what you want to do, never too late to fulfill it. No, the worst thing you can do is shoulda, could have would have, which I agree with you totally. Even if you fail the first time, so what you learn from that experience and you move on.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Maybe it wasn't for you at the time, but if you try and fail, that's not failure.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

That's not failure is not trying. And on that, we will leave the show. We will stop the show. We thank you so much again for coming on, Shirley. And everyone who's listening, please don't forget to like and subscribe, leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Um, we will be uh doing a lot of different shows now, and we will have authors like Shirley and other people that will help us ride this crazy world that we live in. So, again, thank you so much, Shirley. And I bl I pray that you have amazing success and pray that your family and everyone is blessed. So, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

That's that's that's all I wanted to hear. You made my day. Thank you. Bye, everyone.