Empowering Your Career Path: Patricia Polischuk on Networking, Navigating Transitions and Leading with Inclusion

Have you ever considered how a strong support network can catapult your career to new heights?

Patricia Polischuk, Vice President, Business Development with the Organizational & Talent Development practice at B. Riley Farber joins us to unravel the secrets of career empowerment and the transformative power of networking.

She shares her insights and advice on career transition, leadership, and organizational culture. We also discuss the importance of curiosity, resiliency and owning one's career.

Our dialogue takes a heartfelt turn as we reflect on the joy found in connecting people and fostering a workplace culture that's not only productive but also inclusive and supportive.

Paricia highlights the importance of networking, and she imparts strategies for building and maintaining relationships and how to engage your network when you are in a career transition.

Connect with Patricia
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Resources
B. Riley Farber
Wilfrid Laurier University
Conestoga College

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Transcript

Patricia: 0:00

We need to take ownership of our careers and really think about is this working for me and what's in my control to change what's not? And if the elements that you can't change that are bothering you are far outweighing what is working, we need to take that step to move on. And if you've got a great network and you're having conversations on a regular basis, that's when you can say to your network I think it's time for a change. And then you activate that to see what other opportunities are out there. I know it sounds simple, but I see it work for my clients all the time. So that's why I'm so passionate about the power of networking.

Amy: 0:43

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women of the International Women's Forum who are reshaping industries, defying norms and being instigators of change. I'm your host, amy, and I'm inviting you on a journey through the minds of trailblazers. Each episode is a candid conversation with women leaders from across a variety of industries and sectors. Through these conversations, we aim to ignite a fire of inspiration within you, whether you're a budding leader, a seasoned executive or simply someone with a passion for growth. On today's episode, we welcome Patricia Paulschuk. Patricia is a career coach and an expert in the field of talent management. She shares her insights and advice on leadership, organizational culture and the necessity of owning one's career. Patricia is passionate about the importance of networking and she shares strategies for building and maintaining relationships and how to engage your network when you are in a career transition. Welcome, patricia. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Patricia: 1:45

It's so great to be here. I mean, I really appreciate the opportunity and it's wonderful to see you.

Amy: 1:51

You and I met years ago on the YWCA board and I was thrilled to learn that you had recently joined IWF.

Patricia: 1:57

Yes, I'm very thrilled to be part of it.

Amy: 2:00

So who introduced you to IWF?

Patricia: 2:02

So it was someone who I really respected and admire. So it meant a lot to me to be asked by her. So it was Sheri Shen Vanstone, oh yeah, so it was quite an honor. One of my previous leaders had been a member of the IWF, so for me it was a really a big thing for me.

Amy: 2:21

And how do you know, sheri?

Patricia: 2:22

So Sheri and I met years ago through women in technology and communications groups. So I met her through there and some mutual friends and just was blown away by just her. I think number one the fact that she's such a wonderful human being, and number two was just the accomplishments she's had in her career as a business owner and a leader in the community. I was just so impressed by her.

Amy: 2:54

Yeah, we all love Sheri and we're all in awe of her accomplishments, absolutely so. You work in the field of HR, which can be quite expansive. So what is your area of expertise?

Patricia: 3:06

So I've always worked on the periphery of HR, so I have a huge respect for HR professionals. I am not one of them. I have always been support to HR leaders and HR professionals, so my role has been in a lot to do with change. So the bulk of my career I've spent in career transition and out placement, so supporting individuals and organizations as they go through change. So helping the leaders who have to do downsizing or restructuring. And also then the part that I love is coaching people who are going through job search and career transition and helping them to number one heal from it, because it's a really difficult thing to go through.

Patricia: 3:51

So I've always felt very fortunate and very honored to be able to help people in a really vulnerable point in their career and it's brought me so much satisfaction to see their success after having been, in most cases, devastated by the news. Even if people are expecting it, it's still a really difficult message to hear. That's kind of been my role. Now I'm an executive coach. I have been for many years, so I work a lot now in the organizations helping leaders, allowing them to have the space to think through and to really step into being the leader they want to be so. My career shifted over the years, but I'm still involved in out placement as well. I love it. I know that sounds awful.

Amy: 4:38

No, I think it's great. You're helping people. It's a great thing to love. How did you get started or how did you discover it?

Patricia: 4:44

It's funny because it's come full circle. So when I was a student at Laurier, one of my student jobs and it was a volunteer job was working in their career services department. But I never thought in a million years that I could do it as a full-time job. And so when I was just early in my career I had graduated from Laurier and went on to Humber College where I got my post-grad certificate in public relations because I thought that was my career path. But I felt hollow. I just felt like I wasn't really bringing much difference to the work I was doing, meaning to the world right. So I knew I couldn't be a social worker because I would burn out in no time. God loved them because that's a tough job.

Patricia: 5:32

But when an opportunity came up with KPMG career consulting, it was what I was meant to do and so I started there and then was at Knightsbridge Human Capital Solutions, which was a fantastic opportunity to build a really amazing Canadian brand, and then went to Optimum Talent after they were acquired by a larger firm. And then Optimum Talent was acquired and now I'm at B Riley Farber and the neat thing is is that I sit on the board of governors at Wilford Laurier University. Now I'm on the Alumni Association board and I am the representative for alumni on the board, so it's just been a really wonderful full circle, and one of my first bosses, jan Basso, is still there and has been a huge mentor to me throughout my career. So I feel like I can give back now to an organization that meant a lot to me and gave me a lot of opportunities.

Amy: 6:35

So you mentioned that you do board work and you do work with Laurier, as I think you're the chair of the HR committee as well. Yes, so what does that entail specifically?

Patricia: 6:46

It really is an advisory capacity, making sure that, as a member of the board of governors, that there is due diligence that goes into the decisions that are made, and the university and post secondary sector right now is so challenged, so there is a need for support from the community, from business, from everyone to be able to help universities to be that place where students get an education, a full education, and are able to be successful as they come out of the university. So the role has been very rewarding and I've enjoyed it so much and learned a ton about what's going on in the post secondary sector.

Amy: 7:31

And you also do some work with Conestoga College as well.

Patricia: 7:34

I do. I sit on a couple of program advisory committee boards and so gives me a good balance of the sector and understanding what their mission and purposes are and to really be able to give back again to make sure that we've got that next generation of employees human beings coming into the job market and into their lives as supported individuals, and we've got some great students. I know it sounds like doom and gloom right now and it's horrible what's going on in the world, but there are some wonderful students that are coming through the system, who have amazing ideas, who want to contribute and who are super smart, so we're in good hands.

Amy: 8:17

Oh, that's good. I love to hear that. So I mentioned earlier that we met on the YWCA board, so I'd like to know what is the difference, if any, of being involved on the board or subcommittee of an academic institution versus a charitable organization.

Patricia: 8:32

Well, in the main difference is the size of the board and the demographics of it. So, and understandably so, at the board of governor's level there are, at Laurier, representatives of the students, the staff, the faculty alumni, the community, as well as as administration. So there is a really broad representation and it's great because we do hear those different voices coming to the table so that nobody is left out, and I think that's what's most important. Now, nonprofit boards. Again, there are a lot of great people that are on those boards, but the representation is not there like it is on the university boards, so that I really enjoy, okay so let's go back to HR or HR support?

Amy: 9:23

I guess yes. So I know that you recently changed jobs. Did you use someone like yourself for that transition?

Patricia: 9:34

No, I did not, it's. I've been very fortunate over my career. I practice what I preach in that I'm a huge advocate for people, really investing in networking and building relationships. So not just surface you know transactions but really getting to know people, and I have a natural curiosity. I love hearing people's stories and I really do admire people for what they, their journeys and what they've been through.

Patricia: 10:04

So I've been very fortunate over my career to work with some amazing leaders and I've kind of stalked one, one of my leaders, sandra Boyd, who's amazing, and I followed her from Knightsbridge to Optimum Talent, now to be Riley Farber. And you know when you, when you work with somebody, you respect them, you know how each other ticks. You've got that sense of being able to be your authentic self with them and that is something that I've been very fortunate to have, as I say, throughout my career, and it allowed, has allowed, me to make moves that have been the right moves for me. You know, there's a big sense of purpose in what we do in terms of wanting to make the organizations healthy and healthier and happier places to work, and that's what we do, and I'm very fortunate to have been able to do it with some great people over my career that we've seen do gone from one to one.

Patricia: 11:03

So no, I didn't use career transition services. However, you get, that's okay. Yeah, you get a spidey sense and I've been very. I know what works for me, I know what doesn't work for me and when I get that sense that it's time to move on, I've been proactive in doing that. You know it's about fit and sometimes that changes and you have to realize that it's it's not something that you can control in terms of the, the culture, and it just wasn't, you know, a fit for me, so I moved on.

Amy: 11:34

Well, good for you for recognizing that not everyone can do that, which I guess is why they call you so it all works out. So can you tell us a time that you've been discouraged in your career and how you handled that?

Patricia: 11:47

Yes, I've got a few to choose from. It was early in my career and I had made a change because I felt like I wasn't developing and thought it would be better for me to leave the organization and get that career growth. And I was promised a lot in the conversation and I don't even have this on my resume because I was there like for two months I think. But it was very clear to me when I got into this new organization that the leader was not somebody that I could respect, and you know the behaviors, the language that they used. I thought, wow, you know how can I advocate or sell the services of this organization if I'm not respecting the leaders? So that was very discouraging and I thought, oh, I've blown it. And you know I shouldn't have left where I was because I loved it.

Patricia: 12:48

But you know what? I went back to my leader of my previous company and I said you know, I think I made a big mistake. You know me well, what do you think I should do next? And they said, well, come back. And I thought, no, you know, there was a reason why I left and we talked about it. And so she said well, you know what? How about. We put you in a different office, different role, and I know this is where you're supposed to be, and so I did. I went back and it was the best thing I could have done and I was really pleased that I did it and learned a lot. Different office, but I brought a whole bunch of new skills with me and it was right around where the time because I'm quite old that the internet and asynchronous coaching was going on, and so I brought all those skills into my new organization and my career took off from there, and I'm so grateful that I did that.

Patricia: 13:46

You know there was discouragement, but then I also realized that hey, it's time to find out where else should I be. And through having conversations again with my network, they were the ones that helped me just to put the pieces together and say, no, what about this? And so that's worked for me in the past, for sure.

Amy: 14:06

So you've done a fabulous job navigating your own career, but what would be the benefits of engaging someone like you if you're the person looking for the next job or the company looking to fill a role?

Patricia: 14:18

Yeah, absolutely so. I've worked with hundreds, if not thousands, of people over their career because, again, I'm kind of old and so I've realized the people that I've worked with. I think when they have that aha moment where they're talking to somebody who does what I do in terms of the work and then what's next, and asking questions about have you thought about this? Or help them to see in their career that thread that's run through their entire career when it comes to what they enjoy about their job, and then encouraging them to go out and have conversations, not apply for jobs, necessarily they can do that, and I'm not saying people don't find jobs online. However, it's harder to make a pivot in your career online because people want to see that you have all the criteria that they want in the candidate. So being able to have somebody to help you navigate through that challenge you to try something different, because you knock your head against the wall long enough, you think. Try something different, because what you're doing is just giving you a headache.

Patricia: 15:32

It's that idea of having somebody support you through change is huge, because it's scary. And if people knew, you know, I've lost my job today and I've got, you know, three months and then I'll have another job. It would be fine. But it's not that unknown that can just freak you out, especially when you have commitments, especially when you've got people depending on you. And then also it's the psychological hit that you take that, wow, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was, and or, you know, for many women it's oh my God, they found out, I'm not as good as I thought I was.

Amy: 16:07

That's right Like it's out of posture syndrome that comes into play.

Patricia: 16:11

So having a coach to be able to help you through that is huge.

Amy: 16:15

So you've mentioned networking a couple of times. How would someone, I guess, start networking if they feel they haven't? Or how would someone reengage their network if they felt maybe they've neglected it?

Patricia: 16:25

Absolutely. And you know so many people think of network as a very shmarmy kind of oh. It makes them feel uncomfortable and so it's that idea of it's just conversations. You don't have to go to a big networking event. I don't even like those. I like to speak at them, but I don't like to go to them by myself. You know it's intimidating.

Patricia: 16:44

So, starting off with having conversations with those people, that who know and respect you, who've been in your network and maybe you haven't engaged with them for a while, with the purpose of getting advice, information and suggestions, it's not about a job. The job is byproduct. People know you're looking, but what you want is that, that input from them. And through doing that, it's amazing the conversations that will come up. And I've worked with executives who've been, you know, senior vice presidents of banks, who have said to me oh my God, a lot of networking. Just I can't do it. I'm thinking you're, you're an executive really.

Patricia: 17:24

So it's not uncommon and especially when you're in point, when you're vulnerable, when your identity has perhaps been stripped away because you're no longer working for an organization, it can be intimidating. So by really encouraging people to have those conversations and asking who else do you think I should be speaking with. It's a much more comfortable approach to being able to develop your network, to develop those relationships and to really get those nuggets of information that you think, wow, I never have thought about that. Right, and that's what I love To see people grow through that process and to be human and to be vulnerable and to be able to ask for help. It's not easy and that can make the difference in someone's career trajectory that they never would have imagined.

Amy: 18:18

That's great advice and, yes, asking for help is not easy and networking is quite, quite intimidating.

Patricia: 18:25

Absolutely.

Amy: 18:26

Drawing, drawing on your experience with guiding people to their next adventure or helping companies fill positions. I have a few questions. So what are your thoughts on the challenges women face when going through a career transition or coming out of a career pause?

Patricia: 18:42

So the career pause is always tough, regardless of men and women, but for women, I think, in particular, it can be really daunting because it's that lack of confidence that they've got the skills that they need. And that's when having conversations with other women who have done something similar, who have taken that pause in their career, and said how did you do it, what did you find worked for you, how did you leverage the skills you gained while you had that gap in your formal career, and by being able to understand what worked for other people, that can often be the confidence boost that women who have paused in their career can gain from those conversations. And for women who are in transition, like coming from one job to another, it's that idea that your networking can cut through some barriers that are up there and it can really circumvent those job requirements that our must have, because you can tell your story and you can say I've solved your problems. And I think that's the biggest challenges we need to. People need to understand women in particular.

Patricia: 19:59

What are the business challenges you're facing? Oh, okay, I dealt with something similar in my previous role or previous roles. Here's what I did, here's what I was able to accomplish, and this was the outcome of that. And that's when people will say oh my gosh, we need somebody to do that for us.

Amy: 20:17

So do you sometimes, because you've mentioned a couple of times, it's not about the job. If you're working with people and they don't have a connection with someone, do you make that connection for them?

Patricia: 20:26

sometimes, yes, that's my favorite thing to do.

Amy: 20:30

That sounds like a great thing to do. It's so nice to help someone that way. It is the best gig ever.

Patricia: 20:35

I'm so fortunate in my career because I've got I've met so many wonderful people either as clients or as individual coaching clients just in the volunteer work I have done. And you know, being able to help someone solve a problem through connection that I can make is the best feeling in the world because both people are happy and that that, to me, is so important and that's so much of a value add to them. And people have done that for me in my career and I always want to pay it forward. So, yeah, it's a great, it's a great thing to be able to do and it can be so, so easy, right, you're just getting to know people understand what's important to them, what they bring to the table and being able to say, hey, how about you talk to this person?

Amy: 21:25

So that can be monumental in a career shift. Just talking to the right person, right?

Patricia: 21:29

And it's so, it's so rewarding.

Amy: 21:32

Yeah, so not so happy question what are your thoughts and experience regarding the gender wage gap?

Patricia: 21:38

So it's. It's still there. You know we're still, we see it and it's. It needs to be closed Absolutely. I think there is a greater emphasis on it now ever since the pandemic. I think that's really opened people's eyes because they've had to look at their compensation and understand. You know what are we paying across the board. Legislation has helped as well, but we still have to keep focused on it. I'm not a compensation expert by any means, but there's a need to do that. In the university sector, we've got a laser focus on it. I think a lot of other sectors are looking at it as well, and you know it needs to continue to be a focus. It's still there.

Amy: 22:23

So, on the organization side, what do you think organizations can do to support and encourage women to take on leadership roles?

Patricia: 22:30

It's interesting when I look over my career. When I first started with KPMG and I looked to the female leaders that were there, I very quickly realized and self-selected out of ever wanting to be considered for a partner stream, I just realized that very few of the female leaders had children. Some of them were married, but it was not the life that I wanted. I think that now we're seeing a much more understanding of the need to be flexible and the value to that. So you're seeing people say listen, I've got stuff that I'm doing for my kids in the morning. I'll work later at night. Where is that flexibility so that people can be most productive, the way that that makes sense for them, as opposed to fitting it into a nine to five right? So I think that's changed. I think we need to continue to encourage that.

Patricia: 23:30

I think being able to say to people it's okay to fail is another big thing.

Patricia: 23:36

We say that, but if you look at your organization and your culture, is it really there?

Patricia: 23:41

And so that's a big piece, because I've learned so much through the mistakes I've made in my career more so than I could have if everything went perfect that I would be a lot less effective in my role today if I hadn't made those mistakes and if I hadn't been supported through them. And I think that's another big piece, I think, for the younger generation that's coming up. We've raised them to advocate for themselves. We've raised them to take care of themselves and their mental health, and I think that what we need to do is involve that generation in the solutions. Right, we just can't say hey, this isn't working, but say hey, help us to figure out how to make this work better and help them to understand what's the challenge, so that they can be a part of the solution. Because, just like anybody else, if we're part of the solution, we're much more likely to buy into what the new norm is, as opposed to having it forced upon us and then wondering why people aren't following along.

Amy: 24:48

I loved everything you said. I mean calling out working with the generation below you is not something that's happened really before in my experience, always being the generation below. So I love the idea of working together to make the right moves, and the failure thing is we all learn more from our mistakes and we all say it's okay to fail, but we often don't put it.

Amy: 25:09

It's hard to put it. It's hard to put it at the forefront. It can be embarrassing, absolutely it can be. You're worried what people will think about you, so it's difficult to do. But the one thing I really liked what you said when you started you're at KPMG and that wasn't a leadership position you wanted. It wasn't that you didn't want to be a leader, and I love that, because sometimes we think we're at a company and our only leadership option is straight up in that company. To look and say what kind of leadership position do I want and then find a culture and a company that fit is really the task, not get the leadership position at the company that I'm in.

Patricia: 25:44

Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting because sometimes organizations will change and I've seen individuals who have left a company because the culture wasn't a fit although they love what they were doing and they love the people and only to come back later because the culture has shifted, because they've lost and organizations lost so many good people, or they've had a change in leadership and they have what they call boomerang employees who come back. I've done it twice so I can attest to the fact that it can really work well and often those employees are your biggest advocates moving forward. It's interesting how we need to really do a gut check every once in a while and say what is important in my life right now and is it a fit for where I'm at? Because if it's not, that's when toxicity grows right. You start to have that misalignment between what's important to you and what's being demanded of you in the workplace and it starts to create this anxiety. It manifests in so many different ways.

Patricia: 26:50

So we need to take ownership of our careers and really think about is this working for me and what's in my control to change what's not? And if the elements that you can't change that are bothering you are far outweighing what is working. We need to take that step, to move on. And if you've got a great network and you're having conversations on a regular basis, that's when you can say to your network I think it's time for a change. And then you activate that to see what other opportunities are out there. I know it sounds simple but again, I've been doing this work for so many years and I see it work for my clients all the time. So that's why I'm so passionate about the power of networking.

Amy: 27:37

Well, and it can make that step to leave a little bit softer if you have people to talk to right away.

Patricia: 27:43

Absolutely yeah. You're not going out in a flaming ball of You're saying it's not working for me, it's time to change, and you're not burning bridges and that's.

Amy: 27:53

The other thing is that by being able to say it's time to go, you're able to exit a lot more gracefully so in all of your expertise and experience, and I know there's lots of different leadership roles and what's required, but are there some base qualities you think that make up a successful leader?

Patricia: 28:14

Yeah, there are, and it's funny I've done, I've worked with some great assessment tools. I'm not going to do a plug for anything, but there's one tool in particular that did a lot of research into leadership and what is required at the different levels of leadership, because it's not all the same. So what's required of a director is not what's required of a CEO, but what runs through it all is that ability to thrive in chaos, to be able to be okay in ambiguity, because you don't have all the answers, you're going to have to rely on other people and you're going to have to have that ability to delegate and be able to manage that delegation. So there are some common themes that run through it, I think, by understanding what leadership really is, as opposed to status, leadership requires you to think of others and be able to take their barriers out of their way for them to be successful and I think sometimes that gets lost in translation and it's more of power and authority.

Amy: 29:27

Yes, Telling people what to do. I've had that experience.

Patricia: 29:31

Yeah, and it's just if that's what you're thinking is going to be a good leadership profile for you. It's going to be tough and especially in today's world there's so much complexity that goes into the workplace or that's in the workplace that if you think you can just say something and somebody's going to do it, it's not going to happen.

Amy: 29:52

No, you need buy-in a lot more today.

Patricia: 29:54

Absolutely it's a bad thing. It's the ability to be compassionate. It's huge and I think that's one of the biggest things coming out of the pandemic that we've realized is the power of compassion to get people to really understand that things need to still happen. But let's do it in a compassionate way, on a case-by-case basis.

Amy: 30:16

So I don't know if you can influence this in your work, but even so, I'd like your opinion on it. How do you stay mindful of who's at the table and who's missing? So, if you're working with a company, do you guide them because you see a hole or you see that maybe they're not progressing the way they should be? Are you able to do that? And I'd love to hear about that and if you're not, I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that in general.

Patricia: 30:40

Well, we, with our organization, we do a lot of work with companies around change management, about programming DE and I, and it's all about focus groups, like bringing people to the table that are coming from different perspectives to get a better understanding of how to move forward, because if you're not hearing from all those voices, it's difficult to get by in, and I think the biggest thing that's run throughout my career has always been about working with companies who want to do the right thing, because I don't want to encourage an organization to spend a boatload of money and it's not going to work.

Patricia: 31:19

It's always about here's how to do this. So you've got that stickiness that people are going to be invested in the change or invested in what you're trying to do, because their voices have been heard. So you know, I think having the right people at the table is becoming more and more prevalent, especially when we look at the demographics and the different ages that are in the workplace. We need to have those voices heard so that moving forward it's much easier because people have contributed to the solution from different perspectives.

Amy: 31:59

So, in the vein of hearing all the voices, I'd like to hear your thoughts on organizational culture and just the importance of culture and how I know it changes slowly. So how can you? You see it every day. So do you see the change if you're watching it every day? And I'm interested in culture and I'm interested in the importance of it and how it changes.

Patricia: 32:22

You know it does change and I think that you know for the good and for the bad right. So you can have organizations that have a wonderful culture when it's small, but it gets lost in translation when it expands and that's not unusual, like sometimes. You need that to be able to reset and say who are we now? Because you can't necessarily run an organization the same way you did before. However, I think it starts with you know what are you looking for in your leaders, what are those traits, those skills and what is our leadership profile like for the company? Because a lot of times you know I'll talk to my clients and say well, you know what are your leadership values and sometimes they don't have them, they can't articulate them or they have them but it's difficult to put it into words so that if you're trying to hire and you don't know what you're looking for, it falls apart.

Patricia: 33:21

So I think, really understanding what is your leadership culture and what are your values for your leaders in the organization and then start to trickle that down Well, what does it mean to be a team member here? What do we want in those interactions? Respect, dignity, healthy conflict, because conflict is not necessarily evil, but healthy conflict, right. So being very clear and then starting to move all those things down so that when you're recruiting and onboarding, those values, that culture is coming through loud and clear, and then you know, as you're promoting people in the organization, you're having those values, you're measuring against those values and that's the other thing. So you know, if we don't measure it, it doesn't, it doesn't. So bringing those metrics into how we measure our leaders and on their performance, right and how they're held accountable is huge.

Patricia: 34:23

So all those things have to be in place in order for your culture to really exist and survive and not just be a plaque on the wall. Right, it's active, it's in everything you're doing, it's how you're being able to coach people and give them development opportunities and it helps those individuals to self-select, because some people it's not going to be their preference. They're going to want a different culture. So, by encouraging people to self-select, sometimes that's not a bad thing, and by that I mean these are the values that we've committed to working towards in our organization and how we're going to interact with each other, and this is what we expect from everyone at every level. So if that is continually reinforced, then people are going to say, yeah, this is not for me, right? This is, this is not the culture that I want to be in.

Amy: 35:17

You'll end up hiring people that fit the culture more often than not.

Patricia: 35:21

Yeah, and you know again, it's not about having group think. You want to encourage that and having that diversity, equity and inclusion lens on it. Having that lens on everything we do is all about belonging and creating a space where people can bring their differences to the table. They know it's safe to be able to communicate a different idea or a different perspective. That focus, that lens of belonging if we can have that on everything we do, then it makes the culture much more livable.

Amy: 35:57

Yes, agreed. So, in general, what is the biggest challenge facing women leaders today?

Patricia: 36:03

I think it is that we don't have to have it all at one time right. We can accelerate or pause based on what we need as women. You know, wherever we're at in our lives, there are multiple opportunities that are out there, and I think that's the biggest, the biggest thing because, honestly, there are going to be jobs tomorrow that do not exist today and nobody has the skills to do them right. So, by keeping curious, by looking at opportunities to learn, whether formal or informal, by following those things that really energize us it's amazing what the opportunities will be tomorrow and by networking right, by having that great network out there, by understanding where, how I add value as a woman, as a professional, and how I can help an organization or start my own business, help my customers, whatever it is, I think that's what's important is to understand there is no one path, that we all have different paths and we can stop and start where we need to, but we need to surround ourselves with individuals and people who want to support us in those, in those choices we're making.

Amy: 37:23

Yes, and that's very valuable information. So we've got there's not one path and we've got networking. So, outside of those two pieces of advice, what advice do you have for the next generation of women leaders?

Patricia: 37:36

I think for the next generation of leaders, I would say it's important for them to understand that they're that how organizations work right. What is the employment contract? We talk about how we onboard that you know new, new employees, but we never have the conversation when we're onboarding them about how we offboard. Being very clear with that next generation to say this is the employment contract, this is what we're paying you, this is what we're expecting from you, and there are going to be times when business challenges come up or if it becomes obvious that you're not a fit for this role. Here's how we would have that conversation right. So there's no mystery to what the employment contract is all about.

Patricia: 38:24

And being able to help the next generation coming in to understand that there is opportunity out there, that their role is is really to learn and to absorb information and to make mistakes, but be able to communicate and take ownership of their career and what they need, and that there is no guarantee ever and I wish there wasn't.

Patricia: 38:53

I've done this work for so long. For so long there is no guarantee and a great company today can have hard times tomorrow and have to make cuts, so the resiliency factor is huge. So if, if the next generation can learn how to surround themselves with amazing people, how to be able to give and take feedback and be able to learn from their mistakes and move on, and also how to look for opportunities, how to start to have conversations outside of their organization and, you know just be very accountable for themselves and own their careers, that makes a huge difference, because gone are the days where HR is going to have this career path set out for you. There's a lot of work that's being done in career development, but at the end of the day, it's all up to the individual and the support you have around you.

Amy: 39:54

I think that's so important to own your career. I think that's such great advice. I mean, we do that outside of our career and so why wouldn't we do it inside as well?

Patricia: 40:02

It's critical and nobody else is going to do it for you. You know you may have champions, you may have mentors in the organization, but to be fairly clear on this is what I know I'm capable of and if it's not at this organization, I need to start to look at what else is out there for me, because you're going to be better off going into that other role or doing something different, and the organization can bring in somebody where this is a fit for them. This is what they want. So I think that ownership piece is huge.

Amy: 40:33

Thank you so much for being here, patricia. This has been fantastic. Everything you said has been so insightful and so valuable to anybody at any stage of their career, so I really appreciate that. We talked a lot about networking, so for me, it's an example of reconnecting, because you and I crossed paths years ago and we've recently reconnected, which I'm so grateful for, and I've learned so much from you today as well, and I look forward to continuing our relationship in the future.

Patricia: 41:01

Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure to be here. You're a fantastic host and we made it so easy to talk to you, so I really appreciate that and keep up the great work. This is great, thank you. Thank you for listening today.

Amy: 41:15

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