The Quiet Ambition and the Power of Thinking Little with Ryan Tinetti

In a loud and restless age, author and practical theology professor Ryan Tinetti offers a surprising invitation: make it your ambition to live quietly. In this conversation, Heather and Ryan explore themes from Ryan’s book The Quiet Ambition, built around the often-overlooked wisdom of 1 Thessalonians 4—a way of life marked by quiet hope, faithful attention, and ordinary, embodied work.

Together they talk about “quiet desperation” (the slow seeping of hope), why our cultural scales for “what matters” have become distorted, and how even a one square inch of silence can begin to reverberate through a life. They also discuss the freedom of tending your own business, the “Anti-Creed” (John the Baptist’s confession: I am not the Christ), and why “thinking little” may be one of the most faithful postures we can recover.

The episode closes with a reading from Every Moment Holy and a haiku blessing—an invitation to live with deeper steadiness, delight, and quiet courage.

Catch more of the story @thanks.for.doing.that.podcast! 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Heather Winchell: Hey, there you are listening to Thanks for doing that, a podcast celebrating people and ideas that make this world a better. Place. I am Heather Winchell, your host and chief enthusiast, and I'm on a mission to bring you conversations that encourage, inspire and delight. So stay tuned for another episode where we explore the things we do, the reasons we do them, and why it matters.

[00:00:45] All right. Welcome back to the podcast. Today I am joined by Ryan Teneti. Ryan currently serves as a professor of Practical Theology at Concordia Seminary, but has worked in a variety of ministry spaces over the past two decades. These experiences, alongside his observations, led him to write a book titled The Quiet Ambition Scripture, surprising Antidote To Our Restless Lives.

[00:01:09] And I recently read this book and was so impacted by many of his ideas that I immediately reached out and invited him to join me for a conversation. Also, fun fact, one of the prior season, two guests and frequent mentions on the podcast, miss Sylvie Van Huser provided one of the endorsements for this book.

[00:01:27] Ryan, thank you so much for joining me. 

[00:01:30] Ryan Tinetti: Thank you, Heather. I'm delighted to be with you. 

[00:01:32] Heather Winchell: Yeah, and I'd love to just kick off our conversation with a bit about what your life looks like right now. 

[00:01:38] Ryan Tinetti: Sure. So I'm, uh, husband to Anne and the father of four kiddos. Sam and Lewis are in high school. They're, uh, junior and freshmen respectively.

[00:01:49] I've got a new driver in there, so please pray for us. Wow. Yep. Uh, and, uh, Beatrice and Elizabeth are in seventh and third grade, respectively. They're uh, um, at a K through eight. Lutheran school that my wife also is a, a teacher's aid at and, and works at, and I teach here at Concordia Seminary, as you mentioned, and we live on campus, which is a great blessing because I'm able to walk to work, which is nice.

[00:02:14] And also just the integration of life and ministry, which we've also experienced as a pastor where I would live in a parsonage. And so that's. Kind of what our, our life looks like. We've got a golden retriever named Theo. We've got our bees and uh, looking ahead to the garden, uh, for this year. So, um, doing the usual parenting family type stuff and uh, and teaching and everything.

[00:02:37] And life is good. Much to be grateful for. 

[00:02:39] Heather Winchell: Yeah, that's great. Did you say you have bees? 

[00:02:42] Ryan Tinetti: Wife is the beekeeper. So I am, uh, I'm beekeeper adjacent, but yes, that's been, uh, at, at different times. We've, we've had chickens hoping to bring back some chickens this spring as well. Uh, just a variety. Our menagerie continues to grow and, uh, I guess we enjoy those little guests around.

[00:03:01] Heather Winchell: That is so great and I, I guess I am delighted to know that you can live on campus, but have that kind of. Agency to have bees? 

[00:03:12] Ryan Tinetti: Well, maybe we shouldn't talk about it. Maybe I should be more secretive about it to be honest. But, um, you know, it's, it's interesting about bees. They are, they mostly keep to themselves.

[00:03:21] They tend their own business, I can put it that way, uh, unless you really are, are messing with them. But, um, they are just remarkable little creatures. And so, and we've, where we live, it's nice. We've got a, a broad alleyway behind us and there's, um. Kinda a green, green space, and so they're just, they're uh, hi hidden back there and not causing any trouble or anything, so, yeah.

[00:03:44] Heather Winchell: Oh, that's so great. I've, I've had the thought from time to time to keep bees. 

[00:03:49] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. 

[00:03:49] Heather Winchell: So, yeah. That's, that's intriguing. Would you mind telling me what exactly, because I've never seen this title. How would you describe being pro a professor of practical theology? 

[00:04:02] Ryan Tinetti: As opposed to impractical theology. Um, 

[00:04:05] Heather Winchell: yeah, 

[00:04:07] Ryan Tinetti: so practical theology, sometimes called pastoral theology.

[00:04:10] So, 

[00:04:10] Heather Winchell: okay. 

[00:04:11] Ryan Tinetti: Thinking in terms of, um, I teach preaching classes, leadership, discipleship, so what, bringing together. Um, doctrine, systematic theology, and we call exegetical theology or Bible as well as historical theology and the tradition of the church, bringing that together into lived pastoral practice and applying it to the lives of God's people.

[00:04:33] So for me, it's a perfect space to be in because at heart I'm still very much a, a pastor and all my years of experience being able to, to draw on that and just generally as a disciple, I want to see. Theology and scriptures lived in my own life and life of my family and, and in the life of those I teach in Shepherd.

[00:04:53] Heather Winchell: That's, that's wonderful and certainly evident in the book that you've provided, the one that I'm holding. Um, yeah, and to that end, I'd love to just start with a bit of a flyover of this book, the Quiet Ambition. Um, maybe a bit of its structure and premise. 

[00:05:08] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, so just big picture. It's structured according to this sneaky good little verse from one Thessalonians, one of these that you know, you can read it and just blow right past it, especially 'cause right after it.

[00:05:20] In one Thessalonians, Paul has this famous passage talking about the return of Christ, and it's like this big picture of the end of all things, the renewal of all things resurrection, et cetera. But right before that, like tucked into it, Paul says, make it your ambition to live quietly. Attend your own business and work with your hands so that you might walk gracefully toward outsiders and have need of nothing.

[00:05:43] And I should mention that's kinda my own translation of, of the passage. And, uh, so you'll see it, some of those phrases translated differently in, in different translations. But, uh, what I've recognized is that this is just a, such a beautiful verse describing in very mundane kind of postures what it looks like to lean into that.

[00:06:02] That hope that Paul will then talk about and that we have this great hope of the return of our Lord Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, the renewal of all things. And in light of that. He doesn't say, okay, so go out and you need to be world changers or something. He says, no, you can, you can live quietly because you know that he is the one who is, uh, who ultimately makes meaning of our lives.

[00:06:23] He is the one who, who makes our little efforts into to large for the sake of, uh, in the economy of his kingdom. So taking that verse, kind of the inspiration, the book is just structured around those different phrases or postures from the verses. There's a part on making your ambition live quietly, et cetera, and not.

[00:06:42] Because I'm trying to suggest that this one or two verses is like the one secret or something that, uh, you know, like the prayer of Jabez, if you just find this verse, everything else is gonna unfold for you. But because it's such a neat nutshell of biblical teaching, like it just really captures so much wisdom, um, what it looks like to, to live by faith, to lean on the Lord.

[00:07:01] And so that's kind how the book is shaped. 

[00:07:03] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Well, and I think that it speaks so powerfully to just a lot of the. Reality of present life. Right. Just how loud it is, how quick it is, how 

[00:07:14] Ryan Tinetti: frenetic. Yes, 

[00:07:16] Heather Winchell: yes, yes. So, you know, as many of the endorsements said, this is a very timely book for that reason. I'm curious, what propelled you to take this from an idea and make it a manuscript?

[00:07:29] What was the catalyst? 

[00:07:31] Ryan Tinetti: So it grows very much out of my, my years of pastoral ministry and, um, helping to shepherd the people of God and to see whether or how our little lives can really have meaning. What does it look like to lead a meaningful life shaped by the gospel? And in terms of one catalyst, you know, I tell the story in the book of a, a young man whom I call Luke, who, uh.

[00:07:55] We don't need to tell his whole story, but there had been some real sadness. He had lost his brother at a young age and he himself as a teenager, is just wrestling with all of this. And, um, he had been invited by a friend and started coming to church more regularly and, and getting involved. And it was really beautiful just to see God's work and the life of this young man.

[00:08:13] And, uh, one day we had a baptism. And afterward he came up to me and he is like, Hey, you know, I've never been baptized and I, I think I wanna be baptized. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, let, let's talk about this just a little bit. You know, why, why do you wanna be baptized? I was excited for him. I was certainly ready to, to move forward, but I wanted to hear from him.

[00:08:35] And what he said was, uh, you know, I, I don't want my life to be for nothing. I believe that Jesus makes it not for nothing, and that's why I wanna be baptized. And in that moment I realized like he had kind of put words to what I had heard and seen so many of God's people struggling with, or not always struggling, but just wrestling with, I don't want my life to be for nothing.

[00:08:59] I want to mean something. I believe that Jesus does that. And so that's kind of the inspiration for, for the book. 

[00:09:07] Heather Winchell: Yeah, so one of the key terms that you identify early on is this term of quiet desperation. I'd love for you to unpack what you mean by that and um, how it applies to this current moment. 

[00:09:20] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, so the, the phrase comes from famous passage from Walden by Henry David Thoreau, where he says The massive men lead lives of quiet desperation.

[00:09:30] And interestingly, he never defines it. And so I took the liberty to. Create my own definition for it. Flesh 

[00:09:36] Heather Winchell: it out. Yeah. 

[00:09:37] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. Flesh it out a little bit. It is such an evocative phrase. So first of all, take the desperation piece and just the, the root of the word means to be without hope. It's the loss of hope.

[00:09:47] And then that quiet side of it, the quiet desperation to me, speaks to how it doesn't necessarily happen all at once. But it happens slowly. And so I define quiet desperation as the slow seeping of hope where it is just, you know, it's starting to, to run out and, and it's not unlike what, um, CS Lewis famously, how he describes the path to hell.

[00:10:11] Or I say, you know, wormwood does in or screw tape in the, the screw tape letters. Um, the without, without sudden turnings. Without signposts the, the gradual descent. That's what quiet desperation looks like and feels like. I just think it's everywhere in our society that you just see people bereft of hope and, uh, not even realizing because it is this kind of slow seeping and then all too often it goes to, to dark places.

[00:10:40] And we've seen this, especially in the last decade of the upticks in, in suicide and other so-called deaths of despair. Uh mm-hmm. It's real. And even within the church, I certainly have seen it, and I, I think others could testify to it, um, that Christians have their own version of this, even if it's not quiet.

[00:10:57] Desperation as such, because strictly speaking, as, as Christians, like, we're never despairing. We have that trust in Christ, but there can still be a, a, a quiet disappointment, if not a quiet despair per se, where just it feels like our hope is kind of getting siphoned off a little bit. And yeah, it needs to be re refilled and, uh, reenergized.

[00:11:17] Heather Winchell: Yeah, and I think it was in this, in the same kind of section of the book where you were flushing that out, that you also mentioned just the, this kind of phenomenon of quiet, quitting or just Yeah. People showing up less and less to the life that they're in or, or going through the motions, but maybe without any kind of, I guess, hope.

[00:11:33] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. Well, any hope investment just checked out and there's a side to it where maybe it's not all bad in, in as much as there's kind of like a, a pushback on people. Finding all of their identity and worth in their job or in their nine to five. And I think that's good. I mean, as a pastor, I counsel people like your identity's in Christ.

[00:11:53] It's not just in your, in your job or whatever. However, the way to balance that is not by like, you know, screwing around on TikTok rather than doing your work or whatever might be right. You know, um, the ways that we will just slowly slip out from, from lived life and. Goodness God. That's just not, that's not what the Lord has called us to.

[00:12:15] But if you think that, if you don't have a confident basis on which you can really say this, this is why my life matters, why it, it's worthwhile, the, the one life that God has given to me, I think it's all too natural to, to start to slide into that sort of of quiet desperation. 

[00:12:34] Heather Winchell: And I wonder, and I, I think from other parts of your book and things you speak to, I, I wonder if part of the quiet desperation is just this, you know, just this feeling that if you're going to do something, it needs to be really important or really loud or liked by everyone or all these things.

[00:12:51] And then when it's not, it's just. Yeah. Then people feel like it doesn't matter if it's not big, which isn't true. Right. But another element of our current moment where it seems like the proving ground for whether something matters is how quickly it spreads. How many people appreciate it. 

[00:13:10] Ryan Tinetti: Yes. 

[00:13:10] Heather Winchell: So the scales for really rightly understanding what matters have just been really skewed.

[00:13:16] Ryan Tinetti: I think you really put your finger on it that there's a sense that, okay, if I'm going to matter, I need to be able to make a name for myself, right? That I've really, I've, I've gotta go big, I've gotta get viral, whatever it might be. And my heart kind of breaks for young people, and I know you've got kids too, because they're living in a world where you ask, you know, more often than not, when you ask teenagers, now, what do you want to be when you grow up?

[00:13:38] And we used to say, oh, firemen or policemen. And now they say, yeah, I wanna be a YouTuber. I wanna be an influencer. And. It's as much as anything because I think we have that, that desire, which is not inherently bad, that we, we, that sense that we want our life to matter, that we want to mean something, but the desire to make a name for ourselves, this is where it starts to, to go sideways.

[00:13:59] And we see this all the way going back to the Tower of Babel. We're gonna make this tower up to heaven so that we can make a name for ourselves and, uh. That's the, the, the gift of the gospel is that we don't have to make a name for ourselves, that God gives to us his name, and by embracing that and living out of that reality, that's where we're able to see actually, no, the little stuff matters and it's not so little in the eyes of our Lord.

[00:14:25] Heather Winchell: Okay. Another concept from the book that was so striking to me was just the all but constant noise all around us. You know, audible noise, clamoring voices for our attention and online spaces, the busyness of our lives and our calendars, and even just how full our own head can be with, with ideas and with input and things like that.

[00:14:47] What impact does all of this noise have on us and what are some practical ways to dial it down? 

[00:14:55] Ryan Tinetti: So in terms of what were some of the consequences of it, we have a Lord who makes himself known in a still small voice. Uh, who, who says be still, be quiet and know that I'm God. We know this very well from scripture and I think many of us know it from personal experience too.

[00:15:11] It's in those quiet places. It's, it's in those times of, of solitude and rest when we're especially attuned to the voice of the Lord in prayer. Um, when, when scripture resonates even more deeply and when we lead lives that are. Constantly clamoring and, and filled with that noise. It pulls us away from our home base, which is the Lord.

[00:15:34] I use a, I adapt a definition for noise from the statistician. Nate Silver, who, I don't know if he's a, a Christian or not, but he, he gives a definition, um, and statistics. That noise, he says is what distracts us from the truth. Noise is what distracts us from the truth. Now, as a, a Christian, I can't help but hear, you know, larger resonances of that phrase and thinking, yeah, this is fundamentally, the problem with all that noise is that it can distract us, pull us away from the one signal that we really need to be keyed into, which is the, the truth of our Lord.

[00:16:11] So, yeah, I mean, and in terms of. Practically, how do we quiet that noise? One story I really enjoyed telling in the book was, uh, a guy who's an audio ecologist named Gordon Hemp and Audio ecologist is just such a cool job where he's, he's, he was in charge. He would record nature sounds Right, and he talks about how he's been doing it for a long time and decades ago.

[00:16:34] How, uh, much less time it would take him in order to record these nature sounds that he could, um, go all throughout the country and, and find spaces. There would be still artificial noise, whether it be planes overhead or the brewing of chainsaws in the distance or just cars or whatever. Um, but you could still get solid recordings of just nature, noise, natural sound, and that increasingly that's disappearing all over the country.

[00:16:59] When he wrote his book, which is about a decade ago now, he was saying that in his home state of, of Washington, that it had been whittled down to almost nothing. And so he was inspired to undertake this kind of quixotic quest to create what he called one square inch of silence. 

[00:17:16] Heather Winchell: Hmm. 

[00:17:16] Ryan Tinetti: Where he with, uh, the help of the National Park Service, they actually, like, I don't know how they did this.

[00:17:22] I haven't visited it yet, although I would love to, uh, uh, a little spot in Olympic National Park or Olympia National Park, Western Washington, where this is the one square inch of silence. And it's like enforced where there's, there's some policies in the park and so forth. Like this is the area where there's no noise allowed.

[00:17:40] And his hope, his idea is that just as noise echoes and reverberates and ripples out, maybe quiet could too. 

[00:17:47] Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:47] Ryan Tinetti: And so to me, uh, just thinking literally and metaphorically, what's the one square inch of Silence of Quiet that I can carve out in my day? Maybe my life is gonna be filled with a lot of noise just by nature of, of the season of life that I'm in and my vocations and so forth.

[00:18:05] But can I carve out one square inch of quiet, whether it be, you know, getting up a little bit earlier before the kids so that I have a, a chance to just walk the dog, not with earbuds in, but just. Talking to the Lord or whether it be on my commute that, um, while I'm, sometimes I'm gonna enjoy listening to podcasts or what have you other times, or maybe I'll listen to a podcast and then turn it off and re reflect on that, ruminate on it, um, whatever it might be.

[00:18:29] Making sure that there is, that, that at least that one square inch of quiet on the regular in my everyday life. I think can be a, a sort of stake in the ground for any of us. Like it was for Gordon Hampton, where it's like, okay, I can't control everything that happens out there in the world and all the noise, all those inputs.

[00:18:47] Um, but perhaps I can at least find a little bit of, of quiet in my life and Lord willing, see how that can echo and reverberate, and ripple out itself into the rest of my life. 

[00:18:57] Heather Winchell: Yeah, I, I remember when I got to that part in your book where you talk about that, just thinking, wow, yes. So there's so much noise and, and just being so shocked at how, I think you said nationwide, there's maybe only seven spaces that are considered quiet or something like that.

[00:19:15] Yeah, I know 

[00:19:15] Ryan Tinetti: what the numbers are, but 

[00:19:16] Heather Winchell: it was 

[00:19:16] Ryan Tinetti: startling how many, how small 

[00:19:18] Heather Winchell: it was. Yes, it is startling. But it, it just really made me think, so it brings to mind two different things. One is that. Last summer, so we live in Colorado. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, last summer, maybe early fall, my husband went on a little silence and solitude camping trip by himself.

[00:19:34] He did some research. He picked a campsite that was. Remote, you know, so that hopefully there wouldn't be a lot of external noise, be it from airplanes, road noise, whatever. 

[00:19:44] Ryan Tinetti: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:45] Heather Winchell: And he settled into his campsite and it was beautiful. And then somebody else in the campsite turned on their generator and it just changed the entire experience for the rest of the weekend.

[00:19:57] And he, he was just like, you really can't go. Quiet places. Um, so it brought that to mind. And then also, so I had the opportunity a couple of years ago to do a whale watching, um, adventure. Well, a whale watching trip, um, on the Pacific. 

[00:20:15] Ryan Tinetti: Mm. 

[00:20:15] Heather Winchell: And I remember vividly that while we were on the boat and they were telling us different things about the whales and what to look for, they said that actually the noise pollution in the ocean was at.

[00:20:27] At a rate, or it had reached a level where it actually interrupted the whale's migration and their ability to communicate with each other in their migration. And so it's wild to think of that the noise, you know, the collective noise even affecting those rhythms. And so it really matters and I, I think we can forget how noisy things feel.

[00:20:48] So even when we try to, as you said, find this one inch of quiet space in our day. You, you think you've kind of maybe found it, and then there's, there's just noise. You're not anticipating like the dings and the rings and the, there's just, it's, it's just kind of a hard endeavor, but worthy, to your point, very worthy.

[00:21:10] But but harder and harder to achieve. 

[00:21:12] Ryan Tinetti: Harder and harder to, we are very much swimming upstream with this if Yeah, if we're gonna try and, you know, I, I mean, I love the idea of just getting out into the peace and quiet and stuff, but I lived for a number of years in a rural area, and I talk about this in the book, like there's, 

[00:21:27] Heather Winchell: right, 

[00:21:28] Ryan Tinetti: even in, even in the country, like there's different kinds, like.

[00:21:31] I remember a couple years back, um, I was so excited. We've got a, a few acres of, of property up there and invited some friends and, um, families and we were gonna do like a camping trip for the weekend with all of us together. I was super excited about it and I'll never forget we had this moment, it's like nine o'clock at night.

[00:21:50] And the bonfire was going, it was great. And it was these friends that I've had for decades, years, and their kids, and you know, they're playing with each other and we're just talking and laughing. It's this beautiful moment and then all of a sudden there's a neighbor that starts shooting, shooting his gun.

[00:22:08] Just doing some target practice as one does at nine o'clock at night. And kids are screaming, like these are all suburban and city kids, they're freaking out and the the wives are not happy and the guys are ribbing me and everything and like it, it kind of like your husband's experience kind of ruined the weekend.

[00:22:26] Like some of 'em were like, okay, we're gonna go stay somewhere else rather than be here and potentially be shot at. Which I knew wasn't gonna be the case, but it's like, ugh, it's unavoidable. It's just everywhere all the time. 

[00:22:38] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. 

[00:22:41] Ryan Tinetti: Do you have a pair of those noise canceling headphones?

[00:22:43] I haven't gotten one of those yet. I feel like maybe I, I need to get a, a, a set of those, 

[00:22:48] Heather Winchell: you know, I have, um, so I'm wearing some headphones now. These aren't noise canceling, but I do have some earbuds that are meant to cancel to some degree. My husband got them for me so that I could, you know, listen to music while cooking without hearing the kids like.

[00:23:03] In all the drama they have with each other in safe ways. I'm not, you know, I'm just negligent, but Yeah. But I don't, I don't utilize the noise canceling that much, but, but when I do it is actually quite nice. 

[00:23:15] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, I believe it. Yes, for sure. 

[00:23:17] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Okay, so my questions are kind of moving us through the book.

[00:23:21] There's so much we could say about all of these things, but I hope if people are intrigued, they'll just go pick up the book. But kind of moving on to maybe even a different part of the book, you mentioned something called the Anti Creed. That's what you end part three with. 

[00:23:34] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. 

[00:23:34] Heather Winchell: Um, I would really love to hear you speak to that.

[00:23:37] What do you mean by that? Mm-hmm. And how have you found it helpful? 

[00:23:40] Ryan Tinetti: So it's in the context of the, the section of the book where I'm talking about tending your own business. And this isn't just mind your own business and or, you know, mind your own beeswax as my kids might say to, to each other. Um, and it goes deeper than that.

[00:23:54] It's a sense of attending to what has God given me to do and what is his business, and recognizing that. Uh, I don't have to do everything. I don't have to, to set the world world's problems, right? I don't need to, um, try and even, uh, you know, fix everything in my own life that I, I would like to, that there's so many things that are just beyond my can, beyond my ability.

[00:24:19] And to instead lean on the Lord and his business 'cause he's in the business of redeeming and restoring and forgiving and, uh, to receive from him, first and foremost, what I call the anti creed. Well, I borrow that from my, a friend, a, a fellow pastor named Greg Finke. Uh, he gave me that phrase, referring to John the Baptist.

[00:24:38] Uh, at the beginning of the gospels when, um, I think this is in, in John chapter one, the religious leaders come to him and they're like, are you the Christ? Are you the Messiah? You're out there doing the stuff, preaching, baptizing stuff, and he says he confessed. He did not deny, but he confessed. I am not the Christ.

[00:24:55] And my buddy Greg says that it's like, it's like the anti Crete. It's like I, I believe that I am not, I do, I do not believe that I am the Christ, right? And I've just thought of that in terms of this notion of I'm gonna tend my own business and allow the Lord to tend his business and recognize, okay, what are the good things that I are put in front of me that he's prepared in advance for me to do and for me to confess and say.

[00:25:19] Okay. I, I am not the Christ. I, there are things that are just problems that are intractable, that are larger that I, I can't deal with. I mean, it happens in the church all the time where 

[00:25:30] Yeah, 

[00:25:31] Ryan Tinetti: you just, you recognize, I think, um, as a pastor, there's a temptation to think I've, I've got like, put my hand into all of these pies and, oh, if only they would, you know, treat their kids this way.

[00:25:42] And meanwhile, I don't even know how many times to treat my own kids and. It's like, okay, no, this kind comes out through bra and fasting and prayer. Like, let me leave this to the Lord. And so the anti creed is just a, maybe a little bit of a, a, a provocative description for just that confession. I'm not God, he is.

[00:26:00] And actually that's really good news. Hmm. 

[00:26:03] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Every year I kind of have a word that bubbles to the surface that, that I just kind of like hold as an invitation for that year. And this year the word was limit. Lean into my limit. Yeah. And really, I think in light of what you just said, what I've been thinking is just to really embrace the limits I do have, the ways that I'm not omnipresent.

[00:26:22] Yep. Omni rational, you know, omniscient, all of these things and. Um, and in that limit, seeing the appropriate boundaries for my life and what I'm meant to do, and also trusting that because I can't do those things. Like, I can't entrust them to the Lord. Right, right. So, um, that's, that's one way that I've practically tried to inhabit this idea that you just, that you just spelled out.

[00:26:44] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. Limits are, I'm so glad you brought that up. It's so true. We want, everything about our culture tells us we should be unlimited. That we Right. Can transcend time and space. And the reality is we're not, we're finite creatures no matter what. You know, our AI overlords might be bringing down the pike.

[00:27:00] Like the reality is, we are still con creatures in bodies constrained by time and space according to God's design. That's not like playing, right. The fact that we are limited as even apart from our, our sinful nature, that's part of what it means to be human. Okay. Um, we are creatures. He's the creator. And so I think that's a really appropriate word for the year and it fits very much with what we're talking about here.

[00:27:23] Heather Winchell: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I previously mentioned Sylvia Vanhooser, you know, she endorsed the book, um, and she was previously on the podcast for a discussion around her book, the Art of Living in Season, and so much about your book, specifically the section, work With Your Hands brought forward, the themes of her book.

[00:27:46] Every Saint has a gift to bring. This section of your book also felt so resonant with my own hope in making this podcast, you know, showcasing that the things that we do and the reasons that we do them really matter. Why would you say, if you could expound on this, why would you say that it really matters for people to catch a vision for the premise you've put forward?

[00:28:08] And what is at stake if they don't? 

[00:28:11] Ryan Tinetti: I think at the most fundamental level, it's, uh, embracing what it means to be God's good creature made in the image of God because 

[00:28:19] Heather Winchell: mm-hmm 

[00:28:20] Ryan Tinetti: we are made in the image of a creative God. And, uh, I, I think that there is a, a constant temptation for us to surrender that creative side because it's so easy to be a passive consumer, right.

[00:28:32] The, the image from. Wally, it just continues to haunt me of the people aboard the axiom and, you know, it's, they get lunch in a cup, you know. Oh. And, uh, it's hard to believe that movie came out in 2008 and, um, I think we need a sequel in the year of our Lord 2026 because it's only become, uh, more appointed and po.

[00:28:54] But to recognize that we are our creatures who are, who are made to work, that work itself is not a bad thing. That work happened before the fall. Adam's put into the garden to tend it and to keep it and, uh, to, to work, to be productive, and then to, to ply our trade, to, um, get our hands dirty, to be creative.

[00:29:12] In so doing, we are embracing what it means to be God's creature. And furthermore, as those who have been. Restored and redeemed in Christ that now we have an even more profound sense of, of what it means to be inhabiting these bodies. That, uh, this is, that the, the son of God took on human flesh and he has redeemed this, this flesh and that he has incarnated himself into.

[00:29:35] And so. Uh, we can, we can delight in it. And I've found more often than not for myself and for others, you almost need to give him permission to like, you know, I, I really enjoy, I, I think of a, of one man I talk about in the book who loved wrenching on his car, and he thought of that as like, oh, well, it's just this silly hobby that I have on the side.

[00:29:56] He was a doctor, like he's a medical doctor. And, but for him it was so life-giving to just, he, he enjoyed doing it and doing it with his kids and it's. It's beautiful. I, to me that's an expression of the image of God and the fact that we are created to be creative. And so to renounce that, to, um, to, to stand aside from that is to be missing part of what makes life such a joy and a delight and, and how God's created it to be.

[00:30:23] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah. And I, what I love about that is that it's, it's, it's delightful just to you in that matters. You know, we're, we're given the capacity to delight, 

[00:30:32] Ryan Tinetti: right? 

[00:30:32] Heather Winchell: In the, in the midst of all this brokenness, which is incredible. But also you showing up with your gift or your delight or whatever. 

[00:30:40] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. 

[00:30:41] Heather Winchell: Has an effect on other people.

[00:30:43] Ryan Tinetti: Yes. 

[00:30:43] Heather Winchell: You know, and it, it matters in the scope of a society and the community. One of the stories that I think actually did bring me to tears was around a man that I think he might have been a tow truck driver. 

[00:30:54] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. 

[00:30:54] Heather Winchell: And yeah, he picked you up. You, you had need of help or something, and you were just getting to know him.

[00:30:59] And then out of nowhere he talked about how. You know, just on a regular Tuesday, he like saved a baby's life or something like that. Yes, 

[00:31:06] Ryan Tinetti: yes. 

[00:31:06] Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

[00:31:06] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. So he was, it's kind of a long story, but the, the long and short of it is he, yeah. He just seemed like, oh, this tow truck driver guy, and if I'm being honest, you know, I'm probably judging him a little bit.

[00:31:18] Like, okay, here's this country bumpkin or whatever. I'm happy he picked me up, but he is not necessarily a somebody I wanna hang out with a little bit. But if you've ever had, yeah. You're car towed. You know, you find yourself in this kind of awkward moment where now we're like RideAlong buddies for a little bit, and so you get to talking and I, I remember we almost wiped out a whole herd of deer as we're going along.

[00:31:39] I was like, oh man, wow. You ever hit any deer? He is like, oh yeah, all the time. Oh gosh, this is not, I still a whole lot of confidence. Um, and, uh, I got talking about the truck and it just spurred on the, him telling the story. And it was this remarkable thing where he had run into, this woman had had died driving.

[00:31:57] Sadly, um, drugs were involved and she crashes into his truck and lo and behold, there's a baby in the back of the back of the car and he rescues the baby. And he tells me all this so dispassionately, like he's just recounting his grocery trip and, uh, and then he ends. With just like, yeah, that's what anybody else, just doing my business.

[00:32:18] Like that's what anybody else would do. And I'm thinking, 

[00:32:20] Heather Winchell: mm-hmm. I 

[00:32:20] Ryan Tinetti: don't know. That's true. But praise God that you were there in that moment. What a gift. I mean, it's funny as we're talking, Heather, I actually needed a tow again last week. Um, different, different vehicle, different kind of situation. But I had another good conversation this time.

[00:32:36] I had had brought my other car when he was towing it. Or, um, and so I didn't need to ride with him, but I asked him, uh, I've kinda gotten into the habit of asking folks like, what, why do you, what do you enjoy about your job? What, what, what do you like about your work? And it's almost like he was expecting me to ask the question because he said, you know, uh, we've all been stuck at times and that's a real place to be.

[00:32:57] And he said, I like helping people get unstuck. I'm like, just to your point, like that's, that's such a beautiful thing. Like I, I like helping people get unstuck, like. That's what we should all aspire to be doing in our respective callings and life and vocations and avocations. How can we just delight in the, the life that God has given to us and, and maybe help other people get unstuck along the way?

[00:33:21] Heather Winchell: Yeah, yeah. I love that, and I love that he had clarity for why that matters. And I can't tell you how often, I mean, I, I really love people. I just, I've been built to really delight in seeing people and understanding who they are, why they do what they do. And so it's, I mean, pretty regular that I'll. Come upon somebody doing their work, and I'll just be very delighted to know why they do it, and I'll see why it matters.

[00:33:45] And it's surprising how often I don't think people see it for themselves. And it's cool to be a voice that is able to show them yes. Like, actually this is why this matters. Yes. You know, so, yeah. But I, I really do think that embracing. J just embracing that we have been made in the image of God and we've been given good work to do.

[00:34:04] Like, wow, if that was the belief, permeating our culture. Just like how could it look, you know? 

[00:34:10] Ryan Tinetti: Yes, I know. I mean, it's, I think there has been, um, a growth among Christians, at least a deeper deepening sense of, mm. What we think of as vocation. That vocation is not just, you know what, like when I was in high school, and maybe you too, like the vocational jobs were just going to be a mechanic or something like that.

[00:34:28] But, and, and certainly can include those, but that a vocation is a calling. And if there's a calling, there's a calling that God calls us into many in various vocations in life, as parents, as spouses, um, as well as workers and so forth. And, uh, that each of them are God blessed in their own way. 

[00:34:47] Heather Winchell: Hmm. Yep. And they really matter.

[00:34:50] So kind of taking our conversation back to the verse that you mentioned, that you kind of build this book on, make it your ambition. Live quietly, tend your own business. Work with your hands, walk gracefully. What element of those would you say you find most challenging to live into? 

[00:35:09] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, that's a great question because truthfully, you know, I write this book not as the, uh.

[00:35:16] As the self about expert, but as the fellow stumbling traveler. And I think I was so struck with it originally because of that first posture, make it your ambition to live quietly. And, uh, that continues to be, uh, not, and not for all bad reasons, but it continues to be a challenge, right? Because again, when you have four kids running around, there's going to be that noise.

[00:35:37] And when you're in the thick of, of work life and of being involved with your neighborhood and different things like. There's a lot of, of that that is good and that, uh, not all of the noise is bad in that respect, but to find that proper rhythm of receiving from the Lord, living from that quiet space, uh, that, yeah, that continues to be a struggle and not a, I will say a salutary struggle because I think it's, it comes from, uh, recognizing the joy and the peace that comes from living quietly.

[00:36:13] Heather Winchell: Yeah, totally. 

[00:36:14] Ryan Tinetti: What about for you? Was there one that you thought, especially thought, 

[00:36:17] Heather Winchell: Ooh, 

[00:36:17] Ryan Tinetti: this is one that I'm kind of need to, uh, attend to a little bit more for myself, or that, uh, maybe convicted you or encouraged you in a particular way 

[00:36:27] Heather Winchell: To think on the question of what's most challenging? I would have to give that some more thought, but the one that I, I just felt like lit me up that I was like.

[00:36:37] Yes. I mean, probably the moment I knew. I'm going to reach out to Ryan and ask if he wants to have a conversation about, this was part four, work with your hands, because I really do think there is such an invitation to finding ways to work with your hands, whether that's. Making bread or letting creativity flow or building something beekeeping, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:37:05] I just think there's such a pronounced need in my life and certainly in the lives of those around me and for my children of having an embodied representation in this like real beautiful creation we've been given. Right. And, and I'm, I love books. I'm a. Words person. I can be very cerebral. I love to talk about ideas.

[00:37:30] So there's a lot that's intangible in my world, but I just think that returning to more tangible, tactile, embodied things is so, so needed. So I think that's how I could answer that for now. 

[00:37:44] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, no, that's, that's really good. And, uh, sorry to, to put you on the spot there, but that's, I think for me too, for sure.

[00:37:51] I'm, I'm kind of a, um, a habitual hobbyist. I, I'll go through different hobbies every year and, and try out different things because I do. Recognize the, the great value and joy of working with my hands, but also like you, I, I mean, a lot of my work is in, is in my head or it's in the spirit, you know, things of the spirit.

[00:38:09] And maybe one of the best pieces of advice I got from a professor while I was a, a student at seminary, he said, listen, when you're a pastor, so much of your work is intangible and the fruit that you see, it, it's like fruit. It takes time to develop. And you're not always, even necessarily gonna see it in your, in your ministry, in your lifetime.

[00:38:27] And so his, his advice was, and it goes with this part of the book, plant a Garden, like build a wall, do something where you're just, you're working with your hands where there's that satisfaction of your labor and of, of a job well done, or at least a job done. Maybe it's not even well done mm-hmm. But you're just able to say, Hey, I did that.

[00:38:44] And there's a, a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that comes with that. 

[00:38:49] Heather Winchell: Oh, totally, totally. And you know, I guess just with a little bit more thought towards what is most challenging, I wonder if it could be the live quietly, because, especially as somebody that really loves the medium of podcasts and hosting a podcast, or as somebody who does write and is, you know, excited to see where that might lead.

[00:39:09] It's been interesting. So I've had opportunity to host two different podcasts and over the past like five years and within that whole time there's just always been a lot of emphasis on self-promotion and marketing and really building a platform and I'm just really not interested in that, but it seems to be kind of the cultural expectation and, and so I think they'll live quietly.

[00:39:34] Maybe it's not a challenge as much as it's just a continued reminder, like, it's okay, I don't have to try to live from a place of platform. I can host a podcast and not build a platform that's actually okay. You know? Right. Um, so maybe that's what I would say. 

[00:39:47] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah. No, I think that's fair. And it is, it's very much a against the stream again, because everything says, well, you gotta make sure your voice is heard.

[00:39:54] And it's like, I kind of don't, um, I can, I can try, I can enjoy this, this work and, uh, allow it to be heard by those who will. Appreciate it and resonate with it, and, uh, ultimately I know that I'm heard by the Lord and let him take it from there. 

[00:40:10] Heather Winchell: Yeah. So maybe, maybe related to that, you end the book with a concept that I just think is so sweet and it's think little.

[00:40:18] Yeah. And I think I specifically remember stories you told about your mom and the impact that she made by just singing her songs in the basement of that hospital. But I'd love to. I'd love to have you tell us more. What do you mean by think little? 

[00:40:30] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, so this comes from one of my favorites, Wendell Berry, and this is an essay he wrote 50 years ago.

[00:40:38] He says something to the effect of, for the longest time in our culture, the, the, the motto stated or implied has been think big, but he said that maybe now a word that's even more necessary is to think little. And, um, you know, for Barry as a Christian person and for myself, that resonates even more deeply when I think of the stories in the Bible, like the widow and her might and Jesus telling us like she gave more than all of these rich folks who were just giving out of their abundance, like what we think is little.

[00:41:08] Is not little in the eyes of the Lord and even the, you know, I, I start the book with the parable of the talents, and I think that I had read that parable wrong for a long time because I read it in terms of, well, just to. Briefly, you know, this is the story of the, there's the master who goes on the trip and he entrusts his, his talents, he gives five to one servant, two to another, and one, one to, uh, another servant.

[00:41:31] And the first ones the five and the two both double it. And then the, the third one, you know, just buries his talent. And I think I had read that and just kind of assumed, okay, the message is. Like go big or go home, like you better double your talents if you're really going to be faithful and had overlooked the fact that in the Master's own words, which is to say in our Lord's own words, he says.

[00:41:52] You have been faithful in a very little and in Luke's account of that parable, the Greek word there is especially vivid. It means like tiny, like a minuscule amount. And then he says, I'll set you over much. It's not about going big, it's about thinking little and recognizing that in that little stuff, the Lord is at work.

[00:42:12] Who knows? It's up to him for how it's going to grow or. You know, it's almost like a mustard seed, you might say. Jesus had a couple things to say about that too. Who knows how that's going to to grow and where it's going to go, but it's in his hands. 

[00:42:25] Heather Winchell: It's just, yeah, this idea of all we ever have is like a few loaves and fishes, right?

[00:42:31] And, and he breathes on it and it becomes what, what it's meant to be. Right. Ryan, I, I had asked you if you wouldn't mind closing out the interview with a few of your own words, as well as just a portion of a liturgy by, uh, Doug McKelvy from Every Moment Holy, which actually was also part of season two, um, for you listeners.

[00:42:50] And so I'd love to let you read that now. 

[00:42:53] Ryan Tinetti: Uh, and this is from the first Every Moment Holy Volume, and it's the, the prayer, the liturgy entitled for those who have not done great things for God. 

[00:43:03] Heather Winchell: Hmm. 

[00:43:04] Ryan Tinetti: It, uh, toward the end of it reads this way, tend, well, those things that are before you, however humble they be, and he will lead you in time to other good works he has appointed for you, whether big or small, as of no matter he attaches no numbers to your service.

[00:43:24] It is your heart and faithfulness. He apprais and I go on to say, this is the message of the quiet ambition. It's a message of hope for everyday life. A message that finds the largeness in littleness in a world that, as one writer famously said, persists in the thro of quiet desperation. It may be just the message we need.

[00:43:46] Heather Winchell: Hmm. Thank you, Ryan. And I think something I would say, just in closing before we move to some just fun get to know you questions, is that I, I'm aware that in the scope of this interview we've maybe touched on some of the. The cultural elements that the book is putting forth an alternative for. Right. So maybe in our conversation, we've, we've talked about how there's a lot of noise and we've talked about, you know, quiet desperation.

[00:44:11] We, we've talked about maybe the shadow or the things that. Maybe aren't so great, but actually the book, what I love about the book is that it doesn't really spend a lot of time on that at disparaging the culture and all of these things. It's actually just a really beautiful invitation into another way it could be.

[00:44:28] And so listener, if you've heard this, I just want to make clear that the book itself is actually just a beautiful unfolding invitation in casting vision for. What it could be to lead a life of quiet. Hope so, yeah. I just wanted to say that before we transitioned on, but, um, and is there anything else you'd wanna say, Ryan, to that?

[00:44:47] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, no, that I, that's beautiful. You said it better than I could say it myself. Thank you so much. 

[00:44:53] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Okay. So with that, I love to end my shows with just a few fun questions, and I'm curious, what is the best surprise you have ever experienced? 

[00:45:04] Ryan Tinetti: God is so surprising in so many ways. 

[00:45:07] Heather Winchell: Hmm. 

[00:45:07] Ryan Tinetti: Um, well, okay, so truth to tell.

[00:45:10] I, uh, after I graduated college, I had aspirations. I wanted to do great things for God. I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be an overseas missionary. And so I had had planned that out and I was super excited, very pious, very spiritual. And uh, I go to the, the training. There's gonna be a two week training for new missionaries, and I go there and there's this.

[00:45:32] Delightful Redhead, who's, who's also there to be a mission training, to be a missionary. And she tells the story now that she was telling herself that she might have recognized some, you know, brown haired, bearded guy and thought, that's not why I'm here. I'm here here for God. And uh, as it turns out, it wasn't an either or.

[00:45:51] So. Um, Ann, my future wife, we met there. It's very surprising. It was not at all anticipated. Uh, we did a year long, um. Courtship, if you will, long distance, where she was in Taiwan and I was in Thailand, and uh, yeah, I just couldn't have orchestrated that. It's just another example of how God's plans are always better than ours.

[00:46:12] Uh, she's, she's a California gal, well, Colorado, and then she was living in California at the time. I was in Michigan, and we met in St. Paul, Minnesota. So you just never know. 

[00:46:22] Heather Winchell: Oh, that's so funny. And you know, Ryan, um, we have some connection because, so my husband and I actually met working at a camp in Michigan.

[00:46:28] Yes. But we didn't start dating until we were both living in China Oh. As part of the, the same, um, team of people that were in China. Um, so I left for China. Not dating. Right. And then I came home engaged. Um, so we were in the same place. We, we didn't have to be long distance, but that's fun. Okay. So now fast forward quite a bit from the stories we just told, and we each have four kids.

[00:46:54] Ryan Tinetti: Yes. 

[00:46:54] Heather Winchell: Um, yours are a bit older than mine, or our spread is similar, but you're a little bit ahead of me. Mm-hmm. What parenting advice has been most helpful to you over the years? 

[00:47:04] Ryan Tinetti: Hmm. You know, one thing, uh, a buddy of mine, Dave, related to me something that his mom said that, uh, he's, he's one of three boys and kind of rambunctious boys, and some of them had some moments where they really strayed and he said that his mom's prayer for them, he knew that at some point.

[00:47:23] All of them. Were gonna have to bottom out in some way like that. Every kid just has a moment where they just have to have a rebell, a little rebellion, and where they're gonna get away or they're gonna do things different from their parents, whatever it might be. But he, um, her prayer for the kids was that they would have high bottoms and they, they, that they wouldn't have to, you know.

[00:47:46] Be rescued from prison or you know, some, uh, war camp or something like that, that it would be something a little bit more mundane and simple. And so I love that and that folded that into my own prayers for my kids. I can't control how their lives are gonna go. I can't modify all their behavior or, you know, tell them here's how your life has to be.

[00:48:07] Um, but I can love them and I can pray for their high bottoms if and when the, that time comes. 

[00:48:14] Heather Winchell: Yeah. That's great. That's great. What is a book that you could reread every year? 

[00:48:21] Ryan Tinetti: I'll just say one right now. That is the case. I'm, and I was actually just thinking of picking it up again, which is a Gentleman of Moscow by Amor Tolls.

[00:48:30] I love that book so much. I've probably read it three or four times now, and I just, it, to me it's just like hanging out with. Good friends, I want to hang out with Count Alexander Rostov each year and, uh, the whole cast of characters. And so for me that has become like, okay, I just wanna dig into this each year.

[00:48:49] How about for you? 

[00:48:52] Heather Winchell: Oh man, I love that book. And I was actually thinking of it recently because have you read or heard of Theo? Of Golden? 

[00:48:58] Ryan Tinetti: Oh. 

[00:49:00] Heather Winchell: It's his first novel. I think his name is Alan Levy. Okay. It's beautiful. And I love soThe of Golden. Similar to a gentleman in Moscow, the the main character is just a very genteel, respectable character.

[00:49:15] And the book moves a little bit slower for me. I haven't talked about this with other people. They might be like, I don't see what you see, Heather. But I think they're very similar and actually to what I was speaking to earlier around just. The idea of leaning into my limit this year. I was reflecting the other day on how in a gentleman in Moscow, count Rosoff, he basically comes from abundance.

[00:49:42] And then in a moment he, you know, he's kind of given limitation. He has to live his life in this hotel. And then within that limitation of. Really, the kind of life he knew before is just stripped from him and he, he essentially lives in a broom closet, right? And just exploring the way the author wrote, his attitude about that transition and how he continues to be grateful and kind and respectful, and really just accepting of the limits, kind of the cascading limits that are being imposed on him.

[00:50:14] It's just really been. Um, funny you would say that because I've, I've been looking for my copy to reread in light of these reflections I've had. 

[00:50:22] Ryan Tinetti: Yeah, well, there you go. So now I'm even more motivated, but I'll check out Theo Golden as well. Thank you for that record. 

[00:50:27] Heather Winchell: Oh, you should. Yes. So now I would like to give you your own opportunity to say thanks for doing that.

[00:50:33] Who would you want to say that to and why? 

[00:50:35] Ryan Tinetti: I've got a, a friend named Chris Sherman, who is the director of a, a ministry here in St. Louis called Lutheran Development Group, and Chris and his organization, they go into, uh oh. Tough neighborhoods, transitional neighborhoods, go to the worst parts of the neighborhood and buy up, run down buildings and fix them up and make it affordable housing.

[00:50:56] And it just has a transformative effect on, on the neighborhood. Um, but one of the things I love about it and why Chris is very much a quiet saint is I, I call him in the book, um, is that it's, it's small. He's not trying to scale this thing for the whole country or even all of St. Louis, but it's like, here's this neighborhood that I can help and he and his family have.

[00:51:16] Moved into the neighborhood and are seeking to just love their neighbors there. And one house at a time, one block at a time. And it's just, it's quiet, faithful, inspiring work. And so, uh, shout out to to Chris Sherman and the folks of Lutheran Development Group here in St. Louis. 

[00:51:34] Heather Winchell: That is awesome. I love to hear about that.

[00:51:37] Thank you. Thank you, Chris German. Awesome. Okay, Ryan. Well now I've prepared a haiku for you. That's the way I end my episodes, so I'd like to read that for you now, 

[00:51:45] Ryan Tinetti: please. 

[00:51:47] Heather Winchell: Thanks for doing that. Words offered to help us lead lives of quiet hope. 

[00:51:54] Ryan Tinetti: Love it. That's exactly it. So thank you so much. 

[00:51:57] Heather Winchell: Yep. 

[00:51:57] Ryan Tinetti: I've been, uh, delighted to, to talk with you, Heather, and, and thanks for doing what you're doing and for highlighting and, and turning our focus to, uh, beautiful things and ways that, uh, God is at work here in the world.

[00:52:09] Heather Winchell: Hmm. You're welcome. It is truly my pleasure.

[00:52:22] Thanks for doing that. Is presented to you by the apiary, a place for beholding and becoming, and thank you for joining us for today's episode. Before you go, I have a couple of invitations. If you found it meaningful, could I invite you to take two minutes to rate and review the show? I also invite you to help me create an upcoming episode of thanks for doing that by nominating someone or suggesting a topic.

[00:52:49] Let's link arms to call out the good and the beautiful that we see around us because I really believe that finding delight in our divided and difficult world could make all the difference.